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<jcater> one of these days soon I need to see what geas has to offer
<neilt> anyway i'm off to do real work for a couple of days
<neilt> so its today or not this week
<neilt> we are still waiting for a new forms/geas driver
<jcater> oh, guess its not today
<neilt> cant remember who volunteered for that
<jcater> I'm doing real work
<jcater> are the geas docs pretty decent?
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<jamest_> sigh
<jcater> um, what it is and how to use it :)
<neilt> its just a black box interface to objects
<neilt> dont know what the docs say
<neilt> but if you cant find what you are looking for, let me know and well create it
<jcater> jamest_: what's wrong?
<jamest_> this damn bot
<jcater> what's it doing
<jamest_> annoying me
<jamest_> nothing more, nothing less
<jamest_> and I should not even be messing with it
<jcater> no real work today?
<neilt> jamest_: if its related
<neilt> jamest_: ash keeps kicking my ssh session off
<neilt> if i am away for any time at all
Action: cwAWAY is back (gone 00:18:58)
<jamest_> but my heart fills with pity whenever I think of poor masta, hudled over his keyboard, shuddering cause he's missed out on 12 hours of goat references in IRC
Nick change: cwAWAY -> chillywilly
<jamest_> neilt: ssh has a timeout
<neilt> how long
<neilt> so i can set my anti timeout bot
<jamest_> i don't know
<jamest_> as I don't have that problem w/ ash
<jamest_> even logged on overnight
<jcater> neilt: how long after you stop using it does it close?
<jcater> that's probably the timeout
<jamest_> iirc it's not set on ash
<jamest_> but on your client
<jamest_> my ash connection at home's been idle for 37 hours 38 minutes
<neilt> 20 or 30 minutes
<neilt> maybe its my new router
<neilt> i am routing thru a linux box now instead of my other mac
<neilt> later all
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Action: jcater runs
<grib> do any of you guys have a pointer to introductory info on EDI?  basic terminolgy, etc.  
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<Mr_You> whatis.com might help
<Mr_You> its pretty basic tho
Action: chillywilly managed to get banned form #debian
<jcater> congrats
<andrewm> chillywilly: we've told you before, even if you love windows, you shouldn't say so in public
<andrewm> :)
<chillywilly> andrewm: come on now I didn't get banned because of that
<andrewm> chillywilly: oh, the ops there love windows too?   well, it's ok, then....    :)
<chillywilly> I would never let that be none publicly :P
<chillywilly> s/none/known
<jcater> chillywilly is a closet windows lover
<andrewm> chillywilly: you're admitting that you do secretly love windows?   :)
<chillywilly> sure and I have a bridge to sell you too
<jcater> what kind?
<chillywilly> you're not that much of a moron are you
<chillywilly> ?
<jcater> ?
<chillywilly> that's an expression you know to sya hey well if your that gullable I have something here I can sucker you into buying
<jcater> what's gullable, now?
<chillywilly> like a screen door submarine or some such thing
<chillywilly> nevermind
<chillywilly> over your head
<jcater> is it a gullable-type bridge?
Action: chillywilly feels the breeze
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<chillywilly> andrewm: did you get what I meant or do I really not make any sense?
<jcater> chillywilly? who's the gullable one? :)
<andrewm> chillywilly: yes, I undrestand you shame about being a windows lover   :)
<chillywilly> you people just don't lay off do you?
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Action: chillywilly kicks jcater and andrewm just because
<andrewm> chillywilly: if you're going to kick me, I won't buy your bridge   :)
<jcater> what's the going bid on the bridge?
<chillywilly> you know you are really ruining the point of the joke you retard
<jcater> how much for the hollow log
<chillywilly> fuck off
<jcater> that's not a nice thing to say
<chillywilly> sure it is
<jcater> please refrain from kicking jcater in the future... if andrewm enjoys it, that's his business
Action: chillywilly kick jcater again
<andrewm> jcater: if I enjoy you being kicked, that's my business?   hmm, ok..   :)
<jcater> oops
<jcater> gotta love the english language
<jcater> ya know, "soda's" and all
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<chillywilly> heh, well at least I don't sound like a friggin redneck
<chillywilly> hey you got some pop
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> yeah I got a pop for you
<jcater> chillywilly: why are you so pissy today?
<jcater> that time of the month?
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<chillywilly> cause I feel like it, I don't need your permission do I
<chillywilly> aaaah, now here's my pepsi
<jcater> don't get your keyboard sticky again
<chillywilly> no kids get to drink by my keyboard anymore
<chillywilly> or they will die
<chillywilly> plus
<chillywilly> installing this thing is a huge PITA
<chillywilly> so I am a bit testy
<jcater> installing your pepsi?
<nickr> [cw drink:[pepsi open]:quickly];
<chillywilly> no scoop damnit
<chillywilly> haven't you been listening
<chillywilly> ?
<nickr> [cw caffienated]; => 0
<nickr> doh!
<chillywilly> I gott grab like 50 CPAN modules, don't you just love perl :P
<nickr> No, perl is the tool of satan
<chillywilly> indeed
<jamest_> you could always try PHP-Nuke
Action: jamest_ runs and hids
<jamest_> hides
<nickr> PHP is holy
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> it's license is form hell
<chillywilly> from
<chillywilly> zend is also a tool fo satan
<chillywilly> s/fo/of
<andrewm> jamest: I'm sure he'ld be much happier using C#, the only true .NET(TM) language   :)
<chillywilly> of course
<chillywilly> it gives me a hard on
<nickr> C# was derived from ancient texts
<nickr> it is the most powerful of all languages
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> then you woke up?
<nickr> yea
<andrewm> nickr: you mean it's incomprehensible nonsense?   :)
<nickr> Yes, since clearly anything incomprehensible is powerful
<nickr> just look at Intercal
<chillywilly> brb
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<jcater> bbl
<jamest_> ahhhhhhh
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<jamest_> time to go home
<andrewm> damn, I always get here, then people start running away..    um, I do have daily showers, people..
<andrewm> :)
<chillywilly> that's debateable
<jamest_> but that really doesn't help your personallity one bit andrewm
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> touche
<chillywilly> touche'
<andrewm> chillywilly: well, reinhard uses my arrival at work as an alarm clock telling him to go to bed..   jamest is running away now..
<andrewm> :P
<jamest_> i'll be back andrewm, you're stuck with me tonight
<jamest_> and I'll probably play w/ geas too
<jamest_> so you're bound to suffer
<andrewm> lol
<jamest_> l8r
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<andrewm> ok, who's been beating up my baby??    (um, excess asserts can be bad - if a valid input to a function is treated as an error, then stuff stops working  :P)
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<jamest> back
<andrewm> argh!    run away!   :)
<jamest> geas has aplle os x docs
<andrewm> jamest: don't blame me  :)
<jamest> andrewm: what's security like in geas now?
Action: andrewm looks at jamest and laughs
<andrewm> :)
<andrewm> er, GEAS has security?    why did noone tell me?   :)
<jamest> what does it do today?
<jamest> and can I now make install it?
<andrewm> well, you _can_ require a username & password (although guestLogin() gets around that, really - but any user can do anything - and a moderately competant C programmer can write a client that just skips logging in, and can fake any username they like for their connection   :)
<andrewm> um, you can - I'm not sure that will help, though  :)   although really all you _should_ need to do is make sure the configuration is edited correctly
<andrewm> jamest: to put it another way, GEAS provides _no_ security at all, currently
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> not to security
<jamest> to install
<andrewm> jamest: I meant the 'make install' when I said you can do it, and should only need to edit the configuration (meaning geas.conf)
<jamest> no
<jamest> i Mean
<jamest> src/Makefile.am:33: variable `GLIB_LIBS' not defined
[18:18] MSG541<jamest> tools/Makefile.am:7: variable `GLIB_LIBS' not defined
[18:18] MSG541<jamest> Ru
<andrewm> hmm, er, ok, maybe something is broken  :)
<jamest> during ./autogen.sh --with-postgresql
<jamest> is there an FAQ?
<andrewm> er, that really doesn't sound good
<andrewm> that looks like an automake problem
<andrewm> but it works for me  :)   (just tried a completely fresh CVS checkout)
<jamest> gee
<jamest> i feel better about it then
<jamest> :P{
<jamest> er, :P
<andrewm> jamest: I'm glad you understand that "it works for me" is always a helpful answer   :)
<jamest> it doesn't work for me
<jamest> it works for me is a prefectly acceptable answer when the me is me
<andrewm> more seriously, if getting everything out of CVS again doesn't help, you'll need to either  a) figure out what you did   or   b) figure out why automake is screwing up and fix it   :)
<jamest> I'm getting clean copy
<andrewm> jamest: if this works, I'll beat you up for getting GEas dirty   :)
<jamest> so we going to see you after you leave treshna
<jamest> ?
<jamest> hello?
<andrewm> probably not very often  :)   if people have questions about my GEAS code (then you're questioning my families honour and will have to die) but before I kill you, I'll try and be helpful - otherwise, I'lls ee what I have time for   (but I won't have a linux box for a while, so won't be available to do more coding)
<jamest> that's ok, if you've got a windows box you could use the time to port to win32
<andrewm> no!    I value my sanity!   (well, what I have left, anyway  :)
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<jamest> bash-2.05$ ./autogen.sh --with-postgresql
<jamest> processing .
<jamest> Running libtoolize...
<jamest> You should add the contents of `/usr/share/aclocal/libtool.m4' to `aclocal.m4'.
<jamest> Running aclocal  ...
<jamest> aclocal: configure.in: 19: macro `AM_PATH_ORBIT' not found in library
<jamest> Running autoheader...
<jamest> Running automake --gnu  ...
<jamest> automake: configure.in: installing `./install-sh'
<jamest> automake: configure.in: installing `./mkinstalldirs'
<jamest> automake: configure.in: installing `./missing'
<jamest> src/Makefile.am:33: variable `GLIB_LIBS' not defined
[18:34] MSG541<jamest> tools/Makefile.am:7: variable `GLIB_LIBS' not defined
[18:34] MSG541<jamest> Running autoconf ...
<jamest> Running ./configure --enable-maintainer-mode --enable-more-warnings --with-postgresql ...
<jamest> creating cache ./config.cache
<jamest> ./configure: line 551: syntax error near unexpected token `AM_CONFIG_HEADER(config.h)'
<jamest> ./configure: line 551: `AM_CONFIG_HEADER(config.h)'
<jamest> bash-2.05$ 
<chillywilly> oh fun :)
<andrewm> jamest: ok, it's not GEAS's fault (it works for me).   that means it's your fault.    :)
<chillywilly> yip, it's your fault jamest
<jamest> any clues where to start?
<chillywilly> orbit-dev package installed?
<andrewm> see?   even chillywilly agrees with me   :)
<chillywilly> glib-dev package installed?
<chillywilly> (those are not the actual names for thek
<chillywilly> them)
<jamest> wow
<chillywilly> wow what?
<jamest> it has been a while since I built geas
<jamest> as orbit-dev wasn't on this machine
<chillywilly> heh
<andrewm> jamest: see?   I told you it was your fault - you'll believe me next time  ;)
<andrewm> though it's still partly automake's fault - it ought to have told you that orbit-dev was missing
<jamest> wild
<jamest> why did it bitch about missing GLIB_LIBS
<jamest> when orbit was the problem
<jamest> i take it autoconf choaked
<andrewm> dunno, our automake specialist escaped a long time ago   :)
<jamest> wow, the generated code does cause a lot of warnings eh?
<jamest> lol
<andrewm> jamest: well, you'll need to update orbit-idl, I guess   ;)
<jamest> wow orbit-python 0.3.0 is about uot
<jamest> out
<chillywilly> woweee zoweee
<andrewm> I guess they wern't dead, after all   ;)
<jamest> we still use orbit-python right?
<jamest> making sure error msgs are up to date
<andrewm> well, nothing else seemed to be living and not involve making our own orbit-python replacement   :)
<jamest> cool
<chillywilly> ok, anyone know anything about this?
<chillywilly> root@obfuscation:/usr/local/src/scoop/scripts# /etc/init.d/mysql restart
<chillywilly> Stopping MySQL database server: mysqlderror: Found option without preceding group in config file: /root/.my.cnf at line: 1
<chillywilly> Program aborted
<chillywilly> ...failed
<chillywilly> 	You don't seem to have the right password in /root/.my.cnf
<chillywilly> Killing MySQL database server by signal: mysqld.
<chillywilly> Starting MySQL database server: mysqld.
<andrewm> oh my god!   you killed mysql!
<chillywilly> what goes in .my.cnf?
<jamest> you can set your password in a file
<jamest> that file
<chillywilly> how?
<chillywilly> qhat's the syntax?
<jamest> in plain text
<chillywilly> er what's
<jamest> i don't recall
<jamest> hey
<jamest> anyone here?
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<jamest> where does geas install it's idl
<jamest> i've lost it
<jamest> found it
<dneighbo> little dell has lost his idl
<jamest> anyone object to moving default geas install to /usr/local/gnue
<dneighbo> um no
<jamest> instead of /usr/local
<dneighbo> i begged for it :)
<dneighbo> said shoudl all be in same spot :)
<jamest> and moving geas-server from ($prefix)/bin to ($prefix)/sbin
<dneighbo> either forms moves back
<dneighbo> or geas forward :)
<dneighbo> nope
<dneighbo> sounds good to me
<jamest> as running it as a user doesn't work 
<dneighbo> guess we win :)
<chillywilly> hey!
<andrewm> jamest: make sure to check wither orbit-python looks for IDL files, because that's important  :)
<dneighbo> chillywilly whats up with those FD crack smokers
<jamest> andrewm: huh?
<chillywilly> I told them to leave .GNU alone
<chillywilly> it's a retarded  idea
<dneighbo> i love the logic
<dneighbo> you see
<andrewm> jamest: if you're mnoving GEAS around, and put the idl files somewhere odd, you need to make sure orbit-python can still find them
<dneighbo> you dont lose freedom cause if you want freedom you can just run it locally
<dneighbo> um...
<chillywilly> really
<andrewm> otherwise GEAS users will need their IDLPATH set correctly  :)
<dneighbo> ok so why do i need the ASP if way to get freedom is to run my own copy?
<dneighbo> ;)
<chillywilly> I haven't checked my email lately
<dneighbo> i love the logic
Action: chillywilly goes to take a look and respond
<dneighbo> well im off till later
<dneighbo> ttfn
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<jamest> but what about the move, is every ok w/ it?
<jamest> or is it poor ideal
<jamest> idea
<andrewm> lol, I like that - s/w to help trace stolen laptops - out of 25000 users, all three stolen laptops have been recovered - including the one stolen by the employee who claimed the companys laptop was stolen from him   (rather than by him  :)
<andrewm> jamest: no!   move GEAS to /usr    :)
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<sklein> jamest: you there?
<jamest> yes
<andrewm> sklein: he's here, and busy beating up GEAS   :)
<sklein> did you say the other day that you were going to simplify the gnuef developer install to allow completely staying out of root directories?
<jamest> yes
<sklein> OK, I'll wait for it
<jamest> sklein: what error is it givin you now
<sklein> it isn't giving me an error
<jamest> as I think we can do it now
<jamest> it's just not working?
<sklein> I just looked at setup.py and shyed away from running it until I could edit it to avoid /etc and allow myself to name the dire4ctories
<jamest> ah the setup.py devel doesn't have to do anything as root
<jamest> in creates symlinks in your dir
<sklein> what I saw talks about going su
<jamest> then you _should_ be able to move the gnue-common/etc/sample.gnue.conf to $HOME/.gnue/gnue.conf
<jamest> yes
<jamest> before it does it, it stops
<jamest> it says basically - if you're lazy run this as root 
<jamest> if you're not hit ctrl-d
<jamest> all it does as root is create 2 symlinks 
<jamest> ln -s $HOME/cvs/gnue/gnuef/client/gfcvs /usr/local/bin/gfcvs
<sklein> OK, I'll try it and see what happens
<jamest> you can run it all as yourself
<jamest> as those two links let you run your cvs copy from anywhere
<jamest> otherwise you have to cd $HOME/cvs/gnue/gnuef/client and run like
<jamest> ./gfcvs ../samples/zipcode/zipcode.gfd
<sklein> how does it know where the cvs root is?
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<jamest> you must run the setup.py from the top level of the cvs root
<jamest> it's really a pretty dumb script 
<jamest> er, top of gnuef cvs root
<sklein> top of gnuef cvs root or gnue cvs root?
<jamest> more of a hackers convenience than anything
<jamest> gnuef
<jamest> i run like
<jamest> ./setup.py devel
<jamest> from $HOME/cvs/gnue/gnuef
<jamest> and the same thing in 
<sklein> OK I think I have it
<sklein> thanks
<jamest> $HOME/cvs/gnue/gnue-common
<jamest> sure, no problem
<jamest> wow, I'm running geas as non root
<sklein> andrewm: you missed a comment I made after you left.  I said that neilt was looking at requirements, I was looking at potential user policies, and you were looking at the current geas implementation
<sklein> I think we were talking past each other
<andrewm> sklein: er, as the only thing to be said about security as implemented in GEAS is "there is none" I'm not sure why I was tlaking about that  :)
<jamest> sklein: he's not lying there 
<jamest> nope
<andrewm> sklein: I also still think that neither administrators nor users should have to care about where data is stored (ie, each user should have one login to the GEAS system) although of course when setting up a new GEAS server the server has to be secure on the particular machine  (how to do that is another question)
<andrewm> but anyway, I'll let you argue about this with other people  :)
<sklein> we have to find a way to get security in _somewhere_ _somehow_
<andrewm> sklein: that much I can agree with   :)
<jamest> yes
<sklein> I agree one login is an important goal
<chillywilly> anyone remember that ghand quote?
<chillywilly> firt they ignore you, thwen they laugh at you then they fight you, then they fight you, then you win
<jamest> hmmmm
<andrewm> chillywilly: "I'll have a big mac, but please don't tell anyone"  ?   :)
<chillywilly> is that it?
<jamest> geas driver is giving me fits
<andrewm> chillywilly: so bozo the clown is well on the way to becoming the ruler of the world?   ;)
<andrewm> me?  difficult?   that just couldn't be   :)
<sklein> well, some of the brightest folks are the most difficult (a backhanded compliment) :)
<andrewm> lol
<jamest> chillywilly: something like that I think
<sklein> chillywilly: I think you have an extra "then they fight you"
<jamest> whoo hooo
<andrewm> sklein: well, if you're fighting and losing, you need to fight some mnore  (though apparantly all the extra fighting didn't help  :)
<sklein> I'll have to look at my email archive
<sklein> what's the saying?  If you've gotten yourself into a hole, first stop digging
<andrewm> "In his last performance review, I stated he had reached rock bottom. This year, he's been digging."   :)
<sklein> andrewm:  BTW the bozo's run the world
<sklein> :)
<jamest> andrewm: did you write the user maintenance form for geas in gnuef?
<sklein> they just don't dress up in clown suits
<andrewm> jamest: er, only if it works  :)
<jamest> no, it does
<jamest> not
<jamest> work
<chillywilly> sklein: :)
<andrewm> jamest: well, it worked for me, so someone else must have broke something  ;)    it's also old, so all the changes to forms may have done bad stuff to it
<chillywilly> the geeks will have their day
<andrewm> "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. And what have the poor buggers done to deserve _that_?"  :)
<sklein> jamest:  I ran setup in gnuef but the one in gnue-common doesn't have the devel option
<sklein> do I need to do a cvs update to get it?
<jamest> oh crud
<jamest> I had a brain fast
<jamest> that was designer
<jamest> the gnuef setup.py devel should be all you need to run
<jamest> ah, joy
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<jamest> jcater: bwahahahahaha
<jcater> uh, oh
<jamest> would you like me to flood you with designer bugs now or later
<jcater> um
<jcater> I think flooding is not a good idea
<andrewm> jcater: want me to sell you a hacksaw for the chains?
<jcater> andrewm: yes, please
<jamest> andrewm: masta switched to industrial adhesive
<jcater> a blow torch'll be fine...
<jamest> slathered down the back, butt, and legs
<jcater> never mind... acetone will work for that
<jamest> much harder to escape from
<jcater> hehe... but I'm in a chair with wheels... I can escape !!!
<jcater> ok, what bugs?
<andrewm>  /msg jamest unless masta glues his feet to the floor, anyway   :)
<jcater> err, what features are you not liking
<jamest> lol
<jamest> we need a 0.0.8.1 release :)
<jcater> of?
<jamest> forms
<jcater> why? what's broken?
<sklein> here comes the flood :)
<jcater> and did I do it?
<andrewm> hey!   I've got it!    just slap a version number on yourself, and they'll be falling over themselves to release you!
<jamest> um geas driver with a "real" install of geas, only works from the cvs tree
Nick change: andrewm -> andrewm-1
<jamest> buttons 
Nick change: andrewm-1 -> andrewm-1-0-0
<andrewm-1-0-0> the . isn't allowed  :)
<jamest> only i've we've gutted you a few times andrewm-1-0-0
<jamest> i've = after
<andrewm-1-0-0> er, um, bad idea?
Nick change: jcater -> jcater-0
Nick change: jcater-0 -> jcater-0-0-0
Nick change: andrewm-1-0-0 -> andrewm
<sklein> well, enough silliness.  I need to get going.  bye all
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Nick change: jcater-0-0-0 -> jcater-stable-2-4-i386-SRC-tar
<jamest> :)
<jcater-stable-2-4-i386-SRC-tar> remind me in 10 minutes to go pickup my food :)
<andrewm> jcater is stable?   :)
Nick change: jcater-stable-2-4-i386-SRC-tar -> jcater
<jcater> only in source form
<andrewm> more to the point, what happens if you run him on a 386?
<andrewm> :)
<jcater> he goes very, very slowly
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<jamest> alrighty then
<jamest> andrewm: I'm serious about that move of gead
<jamest> geas
<jbailey> g'd evenin'
<jamest> do we do it?
<jamest> or not?
<jcater> howdy jbailey
<jamest> hey jbailey
<jamest> jcater: I'm wanting to move geas install to /usr/local/gnue
<jcater> ok
<jamest> by default
<andrewm> jamest: well, seriously, I don't see a big problem - but if you put the IDL files in /usr/local/geas/idl orbit-python will need to be told  :)
<jcater> where is it now?
<jamest>  /usr/local
<jbailey> Why not /usr/local/share/gnue for those things?
<jamest> maybe we should move our stuff - but I like it seperated
<jbailey> I think that's what the FHS recommends.
<andrewm> jbailey: no reason not to - just saying that orbit-python needs to know where all relevant IDL files are   (if it can't find them, you can set IDLPATH to point to where they are)
<jamest> andrewm: gnuef has a config var that points to that
<andrewm> jamest: er, then make sure gnuef tells orbit-python   :)
<jbailey> I'm also biased from the hurd perspective.  Since /usr is a symlink to /, and a debian install does --prefix=/usr, that would mean a gnue subdirectory off of the root. =)
<andrewm> jbailey: well, isn't GNUe important?   :)
Action: jcater thinks we should integrate it into the hurd, it's so important
<jcater> have kernel level application serving
<jcater> :)
<jamest> how about a shared config system andrewm
<jbailey> I would actually like to see that long term.
<jbailey> Expose Gnue's information through the filesystem.
<andrewm> jcater: er, you want a bunch of guy who talk about goats a lot integrating things into the hurd kernal?    :)
<benno> hi, just installing gnueforms and think I've found a bug
<benno> (or I've just screwed something up again ;)
<andrewm> jamest: this one's for you   ;)
<jbailey> Actually, I was at a store with inflatable sheep earlier. =)
<jcater> andrewm: who better to do it?
<jbailey> I was thinking of sending y'all some.
<jamest> I vote the first option
<jamest> benno: what did you hit?
<jcater> benno: what's up
<jamest> jbailey: what else did they sell there huh?
<jamest> and remember this is a lgged channel
<benno> umm when I install it it doesn't put an __init__.py file in the gnue directory
<benno> (in /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue)
<jbailey> Heh, it's actually a card catalogue store.  http://www.quantumgrafiks.com/, but they also have some, err..  risque items.
<benno> which means python can't import gnue.forms.*
<jamest> that's odd
<jamest> did you install gnue-common?
<jbailey> Whatever you do, please make it configurable.  I have to comply to FHS for the Debian packages.
<benno> but on second thoughts I think it is coz I haven't installed GNUCommon yet
<jamest> yip
<jamest> that's what puts that file there iirc
<jamest> I'm supprised gnuef let you install it w/o that there (IOW you did find a bug :)
<jcater> brb
<jamest> jbailey: gotcha
Nick change: jcater -> jcFood
<jbailey> Mmmmm..  jcFood.  Yummy.
<jcFood> damn this industrial strength glue
<jbailey> (My new sig line.  "Damn this industrial strength glue" - jcarter
<jbailey> )
<andrewm> jbailey: well, automake lets you configure all sorts of stuff - jamest is just talking about defaults
<andrewm> jbailey: is that better or worse than McFood ?   :)
<jbailey> andrewm: Yup, but I know that the python code isn't automake'd right now, so I just want to plant the though of configurability in the conversation.
<jbailey> andrewm: Depends.  Does the jcFood come from jcpenny?  Then yes.
<andrewm> jbailey: good point  :  jamest: you have more work  :)
<jbailey> heh
<jamest> jbailey: like the sig!
<jamest> rofl
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<jcater> howdy y'all
<jcater> I'm back
<jcater> did ya miss me?
<jamest> hey jcater
<jamest> sure
<andrewm> jcater: I'm sure their aim will improve   :)
<jamest> where did you get the info on prefix 
<jamest> in distutils
<jamest> I'm looking in their docs and commin up empty
<jcater> which docs you looking at?
<jamest> the ones on the python site under the distutils sig
<jcater> um, that's where I was
<jbailey> I saw a quote today.  "Aim for the stars, but first:  aim for their bodyguards."
<jamest> * Distributing Python Modules
<jamest> maybe I'm just being dumb
<jcater> the user's guide had more info than developers guide
<jbailey> Dinner time.  See y'all tommorow!
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<jcater> I'm about to create my first gnue form.. wish me luck
<jamest> good luck
<jamest> you'll need it :)
<benno> sorry, I've got some more dumb questions with the form stuff
<jcater> about to create=about to attempt to create
<benno> i just tried running the sample and got this error:
<benno> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/GConfig.py", line 45, in get
<benno> DB000:     return _OPTION[string.lower(varName)]
<benno> DB000: KeyError: widgetheight
<benno> benlaptop% 
<jcater> there ar eno dumb questions, just poor documentation :)
<jamest> you need to go to /usr/local/gnue/etc
<benno> anyone seen anything like that before or should I start debugging?
<jamest> and rename/move the sample.gnue.conf to gnue.conf
<jamest> again the setup.py for gnue-common should have mentioned this
<jamest> if not then you found another bug
<benno> ah ok thanks, I probably just didn't read :)
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<jamest> no problem
<andrewm> benno: we'll get you trained eventually, but the important thing to remember is "if in doubt, blame jamest"    :)
<jamest> benno - you going to run this against geas?
<jamest> or 2-tier?
<andrewm> eeep, time for me to run away   :)
<jcater> where's that glue?
<benno> geas was the plan
<benno> ok, got something coming up which is a good start :), thanks
<jamest> for andrewm....we're planning duct tape, glue, chains, and a few strategicly placed staples
<jamest> benno wait
<jamest> the newest copy of gnuef
<jamest> released that is 
<jamest> has issues with a fully installed geas
<jamest> did you make install geas?
<nickr> doo wop
Action: jcater loves duct tape
<andrewm> jcater: thanks for sharing  :)
<jcater> it's so useful
<jcater> especially when you have kids
<jcater> just one little piece gets them quite
<jcater> quiet
<benno> yeah i have an installed geas
<benno> from 0.0.5, got that working last night
<jamest> ok, then I'm afraid you're going to have to switch to cvs 
<jamest> for forms and common
<benno> thats cool, I was going to do that soon anyway :)
<jamest> ok, well, you also have to wait ill i check the stuff in :)
<jamest> ill = till
<benno> ok
<jamest> checking it in now
<benno> time fo me to work out how everything fits together
<jamest> ok, it is checked in
<benno> thx
<benno> very cool project btw
<andrewm> jamest: I think we have to make things fit together now..   why did we let people in here?   :)
<benno> lol
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<neilt> hello
<neilt> all
<andrewm> lol, in an article talking about inheritance and such, and using a financial system as an example:  Essentially, the code never thinks to ask if the deal is legal (which, if you think about it, is pretty accurate domain analysis)
<andrewm> :)
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<andrewm> neilt: I found a problem with your asserts   (don't you like being blamed for those?   well, they might have been your fault  :)
<neilt> ok
<neilt> i just removed one today
<andrewm> neilt: ah, I wonder if it was the same one?  :)
<neilt> andrewm: by the way
<neilt> it had to do with enums
<neilt> i used my first enum today
<neilt> and have some questions
<neilt> i checked mine into cvs this morning
<andrewm> hmm, nope - it was a NULL input to a function   (it's legal, because NULL is how glib represents an empty list, and "is this in an empty list" is valid, and always returns 'no')
<neilt> cool
<neilt> now that i see your winsdom in enum, can you explain how they are handled at the client
<andrewm> so anywhere you see this, it's actually ok  ;)    while( arg ) { arg = g_list_next(arg); }
<neilt> oh, yes i figured that out after i added the first 100 asserts
<neilt> :)
<neilt> guess i forgot to remove a few
<andrewm> neilt: well, with, say, enum Datatype { Char, Int32 ...};   then in python, this works:  Datatype x =  Datatype.Int32
<andrewm> in C, it's: GEAS_Datatype x = GEAS_Int32;
<andrewm> neilt: is that what you were asking?   or did I answer the wrong question?  :)
<neilt> the values of the enum dont have to types
<neilt> do they?
<neilt> yes that is the right question
<andrewm> neilt: that's language dependant  :)    in C, they're proper C enums, and in python, they're whatevcer python uses - python not being a strongly typed language
<andrewm> neilt: ah, so you mean you've basically put large numbers of landmines into GEAS?   :)
<andrewm> (referring to the asserts)
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<neilt> yes, i think you have it o'l chap
<derek> jamest: what was wrong with forms and geas with the releases?
<andrewm> neilt: basically, all you do with enums is use them - the precise bits used by the computer to represent them isn't supposed to be an issue (if you're writing TCP/IP code for ORBit you care, but if you're not writing ORBit code, just use the symbols by name, and that's all you care about - because GEAS is C and Forms is Python, you're actually guaranteed to have them represented differently at each end)
<neilt> andrewm: but if i have enum xxxxx { basic, advanced, really_advanced };
<derek> we arent using enums are we?
Action: derek sees little value
<jcater> jamest: did you see my StoreTriggersAsCDATA option?
<neilt> can i have a pop up choice in the gui that says "basic" "advanced" "really_advanced"
<jcater> jamest: that was for you :)
<andrewm> derek: this is GEAS API, not business classes
<derek> ?
<andrewm> neilt: er, hold on, are you talking about business classes
<neilt> yes i am talking about gcd syntax
<andrewm> arg, damn, oops, ignore everything I just said
<neilt> ok
<andrewm> um, the GCD enum stuff was never really finished - the parser reads them, but doesn't do anything with them
<andrewm> anyway, all that other stuff was relevant for the GEAS API   :)
<neilt> sorry i wasn't clear
<neilt> andrewm: you just broke our first accounying class
<andrewm> I did?  yay!   :)
<neilt> as it depends on enum in gcd
<neilt> andrewm: thanks for the help anyway
<andrewm> neilt: it shouldn't be horribly difficult to finish..   and there's no reason you can't add another method to the API say "what are the possible values of this enum field?"
<neilt> we will add that to the todo
<jcater> derek: I just committed new designer w/improved focus handling (in the layout editor)
<jcater> derek: if you want to test it
<jamest> jcater: i saw that
<jcater> saw what?
<jcater> did you see my /query?
<jamest> the CDATA thing
<jamest> what query?
<jcater> you just responded "cool" in it
<jamest> ah ok
<jamest> derek: you here?
<jamest> me like!
<jamest> it focuses
<jcater> you mean, it works as advertised :)
<jcater> that's usually a good thing, right?
<jamest> man, a world of difference
<jamest> and it even saves the form!
<jamest> wild
<jcater> just wait... next step:
<jcater> the PropertyEditors will customize the control based on the attribute
<jamest> nice
<jamest> feature request
<jcater> one of these days, I'll actually create a form :)
<jcater> you know, I haven't made a form since I've been w/this project
<jamest> It'd be nice if I could select a widget in the tree, then move it via the cursor keys
<jamest> as it sits the form retains focus
<jamest> form = tree
<jcater> ok
<derek> jcater: i will look at it
<derek> but be prepared for some support action
<derek> as didnt you guys totally redo the directories?
<jcater> "totally" is a harsh word :)
<derek> which ones got redone
<andrewm> jcater: but is it an inaccurate word?   :)
<jamest> derek? 
<jamest> what are you looking at?
<derek> i did
<derek> mv gnue gnue.old
<derek> and am grabbing whole new cvs
<derek> bingo done
<derek> wow whole tree less than 15 seconds
<derek> im impressed
<jcater> cd gnuef; ./setup.py devel; cd ../designer; ./setup.py devel
<derek> argh
<derek> you guys didnt rename gnuef
<derek> :(
<jcater> not before a release :)
<jamest> derek: soon
<jamest> we
<jamest> will rename
Action: jcater likes the sound of "gnuef" :)
<jamest> jcater: I wanna break GfObject.py into seperate files
<jcater> ok
<derek> [root@latitude gnue-common]# ./setup.py devel
<derek> usage: setup.py [global_opts] cmd1 [cmd1_opts] [cmd2 [cmd2_opts] ...]
<derek>    or: setup.py --help [cmd1 cmd2 ...]
<derek>    or: setup.py --help-commands
<derek>    or: setup.py cmd --help
<derek> error: invalid command 'devel' (no module named 'distutils.command.devel')
<derek> [root@latitude gnue-common]# 
<andrewm> derek: I'm still waiting for the return of [the] GEDI   :)
<jamest> I can either make a packge GFObjects
<jamest> with __init__.py
<jamest> or just seperate out and make people adjust the code
<jamest> since "people" = currently you and I
<derek> [root@latitude reports]# ./setup.py devel
<derek> bash: ./setup.py: No such file or directory
<derek> [root@latitude reports]# 
<jamest> I figured you'd like some say in it
<jcater> derek: no one said anything about reports :)
<jamest> derek: common does need a setup.py devel
<derek> so for reports and common
<jamest> derek: reports isn't setupable yet
<derek> just manually create the links?
<jcater> jamest: are you putting each object type in a separate file
<jamest> jcater: yes
<jcater> derek: I forgot, gnuef/setup.py creates the common links
<derek> er for common just run normnal setup
<jamest> derek: only if installing
<jamest> else just the setup.py devel in gnuef
<derek> jamest: read above :)
<derek> i did the devel
<derek> for designer
<derek> and
<derek> forms
<derek> devel doesnt work
<derek> for reports or common
<derek> last time i did reports links by hand
<derek> i dont recall what i did for commmon
<derek> probalby just a setup
<jcater> I think it'd be better structurally to have a forms/GFObjects package than add more files to forms/
<jcater> but I really don't care
<jamest> ok
<jamest> that's how I started to do it
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<jcater> (plus it'd be less work :)
<jamest> made a GFObjects dir under src in gnuef
<jamest> but it's out of sync now w/ main site
<ajmitch> hi
<neilt> later all
<neilt> ajmitch: hi and bye
<neilt> :)
<ajmitch> bye neilt
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<derek> guys
<derek> still no answer on what to do with common
<jcater> gnuef/setup.py devel should take care of it
<jamest> nothgin
<jamest> nothing at all
<jamest> leave it alone and it'll leave you alone
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<neilt> sorry, where are the logs at now?
<andrewm> damn, we have to stop talking about neilt again?
<andrewm> :)
<jamest> www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs
<neilt> thanks
<jamest> but don't tell anyone as I haven't shared that info yet
<jamest> don't want derek to find out
<jamest> I like seeing him sweat
<andrewm> jamest: er, is the channel still being logged, though?
<neilt> thats ok, he already sent me his log_checker.py script and ask me to run it, so he could compare with his version
<neilt> he was concerned about the logs being edited, i think
<andrewm> I think this is the one that tipped him off: <derek> I think Bill Gates is a wonderful person, and we should all use his s/w
<andrewm> :)
<derek> ONCE again
<derek> [root@latitude gnue-common]# ./setup.py devel
<derek> usage: setup.py [global_opts] cmd1 [cmd1_opts] [cmd2 [cmd2_opts] ...]
<derek>    or: setup.py --help [cmd1 cmd2 ...]
<derek>    or: setup.py --help-commands
<derek>    or: setup.py cmd --help
<derek> error: invalid command 'devel' (no module named 'distutils.command.devel')
<derek> [root@latitude gnue-common]# 
<derek> devel is NOT valid for common
<jamest> once again devel get the !@#!@# out of that directory
<jamest> and read what we keep telling you :)
<jcater> roflmao
<neilt> jamest: any chance that one could make the logs wrap at 70 characters or something
<jamest> go to gnuef directory
<derek> so there is NOTHING to install for gnue-common
<jamest> BINGO
<jcater> IT CLICKS!
<derek> jamest: i have said 3 times i have done that command already
<jcater> <derek>   guys
<jcater> <derek>   still no answer on what to do with common
<jcater> [jcater]   gnuef/setup.py devel should take care of it
<jcater> <jamest>   nothgin
<jcater> <jamest>   nothing at all
<jcater> <jamest>   leave it alone and it'll leave you alone
<jcater> :)
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<chillywilly> jamest: you here?
<chillywilly> how difficult is PHP nuke to setup?
<chillywilly> scoop totally blows
<chillywilly> I am not gonna frggin recompile apache and mod_perl just to use the stupid thing
<jamest> yes
<jamest> it's cake
<jamest> copy to a dir
<jamest> run a mysql script (i hate mysql too btw)
<jamest> and you are up
<chillywilly> does it give you a tree view like slushdot?
<jamest> about 10min IIRC
<chillywilly> ick, no postgres?
<chillywilly> wtf is with mysql eh?
<jamest> no tree view
<chillywilly> hmm, maybe I should look at slashcode
<jamest> you might look at typo3.org
<jamest> typo3.com?
<jamest> as that's tree view
<jamest> so if midgard
<jamest> if = is
<chillywilly> ick they use zend
<chillywilly> wtf is wrong with these people?
<andrewm> chillywilly: some people are just sick   :)
<chillywilly> jamest: you ever play with mod_python?
<jamest> nope
<benno> mod_python is pretty cool
<benno> but is a much lower level library than php or things like taht
<chillywilly> oh
<benno> basically just python hooks on the apache library
<chillywilly> oh, no fun then
<benno> well its handy, but not what you are after
<benno> there is also mod_snake (on sourcforge i think)
<jamest> anyone tell me what package has gnomeConfig.sh or gnome-config in it?
<chillywilly> I am not after anything, well a good CMS that doesn't reqwuire too much headache to work
<chillywilly> [23:06:21] <apt> Debian Search of 'gnome-config' (3 shown): (/usr/bin/obgnome-config) in devel/libobgtk-dev ;; (/usr/bin/gnome-config, /usr/include/libgnome/gnome-config.h) in devel/libgnome-dev ;; (/usr/share/doc/gnome-dev-doc/html/gnome/gnome-gnome-config.html) in doc/gnome-dev-doc.
<benno> CMS?
<chillywilly> content management system
<jcater> zope is decent, but slow
<jcater> not sure about the license
<jcater> it's python based
<chillywilly> eh, I am not gonna install zope
<chillywilly> I am gonna look at slashcode here
<derek> i wrote geas driver
<derek> for mod_python :)
<derek> andrew must remember that hell
<derek> as it would only work if i ran apache as me :)
<derek> and not nobody :)
<chillywilly> eh?
<chillywilly> what was the point of that?
<jamest> jesus
<jcater> jamest: yes
<jamest> i can't get gnome-config
<jamest> as it whas about 1,500 dependencies 
<jcater> omg
<andrewm> damn, that few?   :)
<jamest> and they conflit w/ ximian I guess
<jamest> i need gnome-config damn you world
<chillywilly> well stupid ximain shoudl have a dev deb also
<andrewm> derek: er, yes, I do remember that  ;)    (um, actually, GEAS should be able to work with that now - the -ORBIIOPIPv4=1 command line argument is handled now, so it won't default to using unix sockets)
<chillywilly> I mean come on now jamest
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<derek> andrewm: too bad when i tried to tar the code i hit enter early
<derek> adn it overwrote some files 
<derek> and i nver had backed up :(
<andrewm> ouch
<jamest> looks like xchat has a hotkey to exit
<derek> :)
<jamest> and I found it
<andrewm> derek: backups good.  overwriting your only copy of a file bad.   :)
<derek> jcater: btw: thats a request i have for desinger
<derek> designer
<andrewm> jamest: at least you've achieved something  :)
<derek> hotkeys
<derek> for focus of components
<jamest> btw - I can get a deb for lib-gnome
<derek> like F12 to raise property editor
<andrewm> derek: what about "slightly warm keys" for people who don't want burned?  :)
<chillywilly> jamest: alt-q
<derek> FXX to raise trigger editor 
<derek> etc
<jamest> but it's dependencies conflict w/ crap on my machine
<derek> actually
<jamest> fscking debian unstable/testing setup i have :)
<derek> if you use what im used to F12 would toggle between trigger editor and form editor
<derek> and F11 would raise the property editor
<derek> but if you add the events
<jamest> derek: why would we do that?
<derek> we can let people configure that
<derek> jamest: some of us are allergic to the mouse
<jamest> i want hotkeys
<derek> jcater: did you get chance to look at that marketing stuff
<derek> jamest: as long as you dont want 'hotpants' im not worried
<jamest> i just wanna know why we'd do anything to make your life easier
<derek> ah
<derek> good question
<chillywilly> jamest: using ximian debs in debian is not recommended
<derek> cause i ahve lots more glue from where what you are sitting in came from ?
<jamest> i say we use ctrl-alt-d<space>2
Action: derek wonders if jcaters powersource is getting low
<derek> or maybe they his bios got flashed
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<derek> nickr found the hot key too?
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<derek> jcater: you alive????
<derek> jamest: you know anything about forms
<jamest> some
<derek> how you add widgets
<derek> and what are the two things at bottom of form for
<derek> er under the form
<derek> 4 boxes
<jamest> widget added via the new comand - it's context sensitive
<jamest> 4 boxes are to addjust things w/o pulling up the properties
<derek> hmm
<derek> we should drop the 4 boxes at bottom
<chillywilly> (How do you make a cat bark? Kersoene and a match, "WOOOOFFFF" -- Make a dog meow? Freeze it and put it through a table saw "MEEEEOOOOOWWWWWWWWW") 
<derek> but we can discuss usability of designer in SF
<derek> its rocking for now :)
<andrewm> derek?   we're making usable things?   this is just sick   ;)     next it'll be useful as well as useable..
<benno> umm, in cvs there is an objectserver directory and a geas directory, is one of these obsolete?
<derek> objectserver is obsolete
<benno> ok cool
<andrewm> if you run autogen.sh in that directory, it prints an appropriate message (ie, a 'go get GEAS' message  :)
<jamest> bed time
<jamest> l8r guys
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<benno> cya
<chillywilly> i think that the idea of geeks with guns is the scarest thing about being a geek...i mean..ive seen these people get in fights over text editors..imagine if
<derek> rofl
<derek> i have seen some of them try to drink a cola
<derek> and honestly 
<derek> the dexterity is so pitiful
<derek> i dont know if i would be worried or not :)
<andrewm> derek: what about the ones who oractise by playing quake?   :)
<benno> is there any road map or something for gnue at the moment? (ie: pointer to where i should start hacking stuff)
<chillywilly> haha, now that's funny
<andrewm>  /msg chillywilly no, you tell him that _after_ masta has applied the shackles
<andrewm> :)
<benno> lol
<andrewm> benno: actually, the web site has a degree of info on where things are, and where they're going
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<derek> benno
<andrewm> hmm, we used to have an actual road map, I'm not sure where it's gone though  :)
<derek> we take this outlook
<derek> telling you WHERE to hack
<derek> probably wont keep you here long (despite the shackles)
<derek> asking you what you are interested in hacking
<chillywilly> damn skippy
<derek> then pointing you in place you can do that is much more effective we have found
<andrewm> derek just _wants_ to have us chained to our desks   :)
<derek> andrewm: no the glue seems to be working better
<chillywilly> fo course he is da masta, like he has better things to do or something
<andrewm> derek: unless you glue people to chairs that have wheels   :)
<chillywilly> he'll make sure to flue your wheels to the floo now
<chillywilly> er, glue
<chillywilly> wow, I am really fscking tired
<chillywilly> mysql is a tool of the devil
<nickr> amen
<andrewm> benno: derek has a point, though - as odd as we may be, you'll have a lot more luck actually talking to people than reading the, er, what's that word? I use it so rarely I can't remember it..  oh, yeah!  documentation, that's the one  :)
Action: andrewm hugs poor mysql
<benno> documentation? oh i think they tried to teach as about that at uni 
<andrewm> benno: we do have some, but not asd much as we should  :)
Action: chillywilly strangles mysql and saves us all the hell that one must endure using it
<andrewm> actually, talking of that - I've very glad that everyone is 100% happy with the GEAS docs   ;)
<benno> actually you seem to have quite a lot ..  a lot more than other projects
<andrewm> benno: that's a really frightening thing   :)
<derek> benno: problem with docs
<derek> is when donating time to develop thigns
<derek> generally people dont want to spend what little time tehy have documenting
<derek> but rather writing
<derek> we were good about getting people to write what they were going to do up front
<derek> which is why you see lots of doc
<derek> problem is once they start writing
<derek> have been bad about going back and fixing the docs to match how its REALLY working :)
<benno> yeah that is a problem for most things
<benno> but still better than nothing
<andrewm> derek: then when someone says "I want to help, but I'm not a very good coder" or "I want to help, but there's so much that I don't know where to start" you tell them to study the code and document as they read - then docs can start appearing from nowhere   :)   (and yes, doc writers need to keep up with changes  :)
<derek> speaking of that
<derek> where is ajmitch :)
<andrewm> benno: you wanted to know where to start..?    :)
<benno> one question, there is all the stuff in gnue-config, is this "setupable" yet?
<andrewm> derek: probably hiding  ;P
<derek> benno: somewhat
Action: benno can't write docs
<derek> i started to drill through
<derek> the base/person section
<chillywilly> ajmitch is here
<benno> (well i'd prefer to code :)
<chillywilly> open your freakin eyes
<derek> i ahve created postgresql inserts for default values
<derek> and made forms 
<derek> for managing these classes a bit
<derek> but it has a LONG way to go :)
Action: andrewm thinks - can we argue that English is a computer language for coding documentation?   :)
<chillywilly> ajmitch!!!
<derek> basically the stuff thats tehre is the start
<derek> and waiting fro someone to being implementing
<derek> s/being/begin
<benno> ok then, looks like a good place for me to start then