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<chillywilly> reinhard: howdy
<derek> anyone here know html
<derek> how can i do
<derek> <td><img src=someimage></td>
<derek> and have that image repeat over and over?
<derek> i did
<derek> <td background=someimage>&nbsp;</td>
<derek> and that worked but had 'odd' results
<chillywilly> that's the onyl way I know of
<reinhard> morning all
<derek> chillywilly: how can i adjust the height?
<derek> i try to do height in tr
<derek> or in td
<reinhard> just about to leave till noon
<derek> but it wont go smaller than like 15
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<derek> i need it at 9
<chillywilly> why doesn't it like 9?
<derek> dont know
<derek> the image is 9 tall
<derek> it wraps
<chillywilly> there's no limit, you should be able to squish it as much as you want
<derek> so sees
<derek> ---------------
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<derek> --------------
<derek> instead of 
<derek> -----------------------
<derek> if i make it say 20
<derek> then i get
<derek> -----------------
<derek> --------------------
<derek> ----------------
<derek> so its honoring height tag
<derek> jsut wont let it get smaller than like 15
<derek> i thought was because i had the &nbsp;
<derek> but if i dont have that then no image at all shows up
Action: derek remembers fighting something identical on netscape like 2 years ago
<derek> iirc it worked fine on i.e.
<chillywilly> I hate html
<derek> me too
<derek> its browsers that suck
<chillywilly> I have never sat dow and ever made my own web page
<chillywilly> either
<chillywilly> because i hate it
<derek> muther fudger
<derek> thats the problem
<derek> KNEW i had it before
<derek> if i remove the &nbsp;
<derek> it looks fine in i.e.
<derek> but wont show up at all in netscape
<derek> if i add the &nbsp; it comes back but image has to be at least 15 tall or it repeats
Action: derek bangs head on wall...
<chillywilly> netscape is usually stricter with html syntax
<derek> browser incompatiability licks bag
<chillywilly> thnak M$ and nutscrape for screwing things up so good
<derek> some site somewhere has to have wrok around for this
<chillywilly> yeah, there should be something you can do
<derek> can you think of a place that uses images like this tha ti cna look at source
Action: derek is blanking
<chillywilly> hehe, I know use BowserHawk
<chillywilly> it will detect what browser you are using and you can us eHavaScript to pick the coreect way :P
<chillywilly> yeahm that's what I'd really love to do....gawd html sucks
<chillywilly> er, JavaScript
<derek> um that would be fine and all
<derek> BUT
<derek> i cant find a way to do it in netscape
<derek> so its not a matter of browser detecting
<derek> at least until i cna find a way to do in nutscrape
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> what version?
<derek> mozilla
<chillywilly> ah
<derek> hell html 4 doesnt even say background is a valid tag
<derek> er property for td tag
<derek> probably supposed to do with style sheets?
<chillywilly> yeah
Action: chillywilly has an html 4 refence book in his room
<chillywilly> reference
<derek> if i have
<derek> <STYLE>
<derek> P.body1 {background-image: url(topborder.gif);
<derek> 		background-repeat: repeat-x;
<derek> 		background-attachment: fixed;
<derek> 		}
<derek> </STYLE>
<derek> how do i call that in the P tag?
<derek> <p style="body1">
<derek> ?
<chillywilly> you can us eht eclass tag
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> class tag
<chillywilly> <small CLASS="SMALL">`freedom'<br>(Thomas Crawford, 1857)</small>
<chillywilly> <link REL="STYLESHEET" HREF="FD-USeng.css"
<chillywilly> >
<chillywilly> but I know there's a way to do it like you want to
<chillywilly> lemme go grab my book
<derek> well style sheets have same effect
<derek> i.e. they need the &nbsp;
<derek> sigh
<chillywilly> fudge
<derek> 98% of users to this site will be i.e.
<derek> so dont know why im wasting the time
<derek> i suppose cause i dont use ie
<derek> so it bothers me
<derek> what was old netscape developer page?
<chillywilly> yeah
Action: derek is gonna cry
<derek> this is sad
<chillywilly> dunno
<derek> well if i dont put the &nbsp; it looks kick ass on i.e.
<derek> but just doesnt display on nutscrape (which is how it HAS been) so i guess thats better than nothing 
<derek> sigh only 1 hour wasted
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<Me2000> # Appears as ANNA.
<Me2000> hello
<Me2000> i installed gnue. how should i make the configuration for the postgres db?
<Me2000> anyone there?
<derek> hello
<Me2000> hello derek
<Me2000> with your help i installed gnue.
<Me2000> but how do i make the configuration for postgesql?
<Me2000> can you help me derek?
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<derek> ok back
<derek> yeah i can help give me 5 minuts
<derek> minutes
<derek> im trying ot fix somethign for a client
<derek> ok im back
<derek> you still here?
<Me2000> yes
Action: derek is listening to some german tunes, am up during german hours, and surround by those that speak german.... im being assimilated :)
<derek> Me2000: ok so what have you done so far?
<derek> just compiled?
<Me2000> ich spreche auch deutsch :-)
<derek> or have you played with your geas config file at all?
<derek> i dont 
<derek> ich bin der meister
<Me2000> ich nicht
<derek> or something 
<derek> i only know what reinhard teaches me
<Me2000> i only looked at the configuration file
<derek> have you started geas at all?
<derek> with any success?
<Me2000> no
<Me2000> that's the problem
<derek> what happens when you try to start it?
<derek> did you do
<derek> make
<derek> or make install too?
<Me2000> ror: Connection to database 'gnue' failed: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog.
<Me2000> Er
Action: derek has never doing a make install  w/ gnue
<Me2000> nice to hear that
<derek> well make install didnt work for long time :)
<derek> so i lied
<derek> i have done it
<derek> but its been broken so long (make install)
<derek> i have just been doing makes and running from there :)
<chillywilly> you need to create the databse
<Me2000> nice
<chillywilly> neilt fixed make install a long time ago
<derek> chillywilly: i thought geas did for you now
<derek> chillywilly: figures, no one tells me the good stuff :)
<Me2000> how do i do that?
<derek> do
<derek> psql
<derek> and hit enter
<chillywilly> you were there
<derek> someone@localhost$ psql
<derek> or whatever your prompt looks like
<derek> did that owrk?
<chillywilly> nah
<chillywilly> createdb gnue
<derek> chillywilly: thats for weenies :)
<derek> Me2000: yes createdb gnue should work too :)
<Me2000> i've done that already
<derek> so gnue db exists?
<Me2000> i think so
<derek> i.e. you can go 
<derek> psql gnue
<derek> ?
<Me2000> yes
<chillywilly> what user is that?
<Me2000> postgres
<Me2000> i've also created a user 'geas'
<Me2000> no gnue
<derek> er
<derek> ok
<derek> go to your geas.conf
<derek> i dont know where make isntall puts it
<derek> do you chillywilly
<Me2000> ok
<chillywilly> ummmm
<derek> i would guess /usr/local/etc/
<Me2000> /usr/local/etc
<Me2000> yes
<chillywilly> yeah
<derek> shoudl be usr/local/gnue/etc
<chillywilly> $prefix/etc
<derek> but hey thats a diff story :)
Action: derek will beat the coders later
<derek> ok open the config file
<derek> at the bottom
<Me2000> ok
<derek> [ database test_postgresql ]
<derek> active         true
<derek> type           PostgreSQL
<derek> dbname         gnue
<derek> username       gnue
<derek> hostname       localhost
<derek> port           5432
<derek> connections    1
<derek> you should have something like this i assume
<derek> what is the username you have
<Me2000> yes
<Me2000> it's already there
<derek> as iirc this is how logs into postgres
<derek> so if you dont ahve gnue user
<derek> with rights to gnue db you will have problems
<derek> you can change to
<derek> username      geas
<derek> here
<derek> and then start the server
<derek> let me know what happens
<derek> and of course is your postgres on localhost?
<derek> ;)
<Me2000> yes
<Me2000> it is
<derek> ok did you change the username in the conf file
<derek> and try to restart server?
<chillywilly> we could use an init scri[t fpr geas
<Me2000> the server is not running
<chillywilly> scri[t
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> I can't type
<Me2000> and i created a user 'gnue'
<chillywilly> create the database as that guy
<chillywilly> too
<chillywilly> su
<chillywilly> su gnue
<chillywilly> creatdb gnue
<Me2000> gnue has own unix user
<Me2000> gnue has no own unix user
<chillywilly> yes and he needs to be able to write to the databse
<derek> im confused
<derek> you will need a unix user
<derek> doesnt matter who (for right now)
<Me2000> why?
<derek> and that user needs axis to the postgres db
<derek> Me2000: well it might not need to be unix user (havent tried)
<derek> for now for sake of testing
<derek> easiest thing
<derek> is to make the db under your user account
<Me2000> i can run psql gnue gnue
<derek> then put your user account
<derek> in the config file
<derek> and try to start the server
<Me2000> ok
<derek> also with that setup
<derek> go into psql
<derek> connect to the gnue database
<derek> adn then
<derek> create a table
<derek> and then drop it
<derek> to make sure that account can 'really' do all it needs to
<derek> as generally you can connect to a db w/ about any user
<derek> that has postgres account, you just cant do anything 
Action: derek is gonna have to get mtn dew in the morning
<Me2000> did create test and drop test in psql gnue gnue
<derek> ok
<derek> and geas server wont start
<derek> still?
<Me2000> yes
<derek> what error you getting
<Me2000> error: Connection to database 'gnue' failed: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog.rn** ERROR **: file classdata_database.c: line 491 (compare_classes_to_database): assertion failed: (database != NULL)rnaborting...rnAbgebrochen (core dumped)
<Me2000> nice
<derek> hmmmm
<derek> chillywilly: any ideas?
<derek> Me2000: i havent encountered anything like this yet
<derek> i have encountered plenty of other things
<derek> its seeming that geas is doing what its supposed but some access issue is happening
<Me2000> but psql gnue gnue works fine
<derek> i would stil try all as your user account
<derek> and see if issue goes away
<chillywilly> geas needs to run as the user who can connect to the database
<derek> as guess is weird about this i think
<derek> as i wrote a web interface in pyhthon to talk to geas
<Me2000> and again the same ...
<chillywilly> at least i thought it did
<derek> and wouldnt work as webserver was nobody
<derek> which wasnt a 'real' user
<derek> so even though i gave full access it had issues
<derek> as soon as i made apache run as me problem went away
<derek> they were working on fixing this i believe
<Me2000> i used root to run it
<derek> did that work making everything root
<chillywilly> geas?
<derek> Me2000: will you be around for a bit?
<Me2000> yes
<derek> rm-away: said he would be back at noon
<Me2000> i will come back
<derek> i think he is on same time as you or within an hour
<rm-away> speak of the devil
<derek> hey
<derek> el diablo
<rm-away> just came back like 30 seconds ago
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<derek> rm-away: Me2000is having issues :)
<derek> cant get geas to run
<reinhard> shall i read logs
<derek> but can get it to compile
<Me2000> ok i be here again approx. 20.15 MET
<derek> no
<derek> Me2000: dont leave
<derek> help is here now
<Me2000> ok
<derek> the geas master has arrived
<reinhard> lol
<reinhard> Me2000: can you give me in a nutshell
<Me2000> hello reinhard
<reinhard> what the problem is?
<derek> Me2000> error: Connection to database 'gnue' failed: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog.rn** ERROR **: file classdata_database.c: line 491 (compare_classes_to_database): assertion failed: (database != NULL)rnaborting...rnAbgebrochen (core dumped)
<Me2000> right
<derek> is what happens when he tries to start geas
<derek> he has created db called gnue
<reinhard> you have a db named gnue
<reinhard> ?
<derek> and has a user called gnue
<Me2000> also psql gnue gnue works
<derek> that has rights to db gnue
<derek> he can psql gnue gnue
<derek> and create a table
<reinhard> do you start geas w/ user gnue
<derek> and drop it
<reinhard> or w/ your normal user?
<Me2000> with root
<derek> does root have access to db gnue?
<reinhard> what happens when you run geas as user gnue?
<Me2000> yes
Action: derek needs to go to bed but wants to see the solution to this one
<Me2000> psql gnue root and create/drop works
<Me2000> no user gnue
<Me2000> only in postgrsql
<reinhard> hmmm
<reinhard> i always do
<reinhard> as my normal user
<reinhard> createdb gnue
<Me2000> ok i did
<derek> me too
<reinhard> then psql gnue
<reinhard> works
<Me2000> yes
<reinhard> without extra user specification
<Me2000> yes
<derek> thats what i suggested we try and if that works then we can go backwards from there
<reinhard> Me2000: and can you start geas now?
<Me2000> no
<Me2000> everytime i get a core dume (nice error handler)
<Me2000> dume=dump
<derek> hmmm
<derek> Me2000: what distro?
<derek> Me2000: so as your normal user you did a createdb gnue
<Me2000> yes
<derek> then as normal user started geas
<Me2000> rh 7.0
<Me2000> both root an normal
<derek> well thats no fun
<derek> reinhard: any ideas
<reinhard> to be honest
<reinhard>  no
<derek> can he run it with debug level cranked up to help you out at all?
<reinhard> when psql gnue
<reinhard> works
<derek> no errors were obtained when compiling?
<reinhard>  Connection to database 'gnue' failed: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog
<reinhard> is a postgres error message
<Me2000> i got some errors in a mysql*
Action: derek has to go to bed
<derek> reinhard: let me know if you guys solve this one
<Me2000> i exchanged the file with the same postgres one
<reinhard> derek: ok
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<derek> maybe could do a ssh session or something???
<derek> or vnc or something?
<derek> or do debug levels
<Me2000> maybe
<derek> Me2000: thanks for being patient
<derek> im about only one that has a red hat box
<Me2000> can we do that at 20.15 MET
<Me2000> it's time to go for civil service
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> i will be here
<derek> and mine is 6.2 so geas hasnt gone through the gauntlet on redaht like it has elsewhere
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<derek> so we appreciate the help tracking down the issue
<reinhard> and i will try to have jamest here at that time
<derek> hopefully it wont leave a bad taste in your mouth 
Nick change: derek -> dnZzzz
<reinhard> because jamest is the postgres stud :)
<Me2000> i have a windows pc connected to the internet
<dnZzzz> reinhard: hmmm he tells me other wise
<Me2000> and the linux one isn't
<dnZzzz> he says he is 'THE' postgres stud
<reinhard> Me2000: where are you
<reinhard> ?
Action: dnZzzz is away: Reloading Crack Pipe
<Me2000> you can use vnc to connect to windows and then use the terminal to connect to linux
<Me2000> in germany
<Me2000> hallo
<reinhard> where in germany?
<Me2000> chemnitz sachsen
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> well that's too far to go for a visit
<reinhard> :)
<Me2000> und jetzt mus ich mich auf den weg zu meinem zivildienst machen
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> ok bis 20:15
<Me2000> perhaps in holidays
<Me2000> bye
<reinhard> bye
<Me2000> thank you all
<reinhard> Me2000: thank YOU
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<chillywilly> night ppl
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<reinhard> morning jamest_
<reinhard> do you know what this message means:
<reinhard> error: Connection to database 'gnue' failed: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog.
<reinhard> ?
<reinhard> it is a postgres error message btw
<jamest_> it means that you don't have a database named gnue
<reinhard> Me2000 gets this message
<jamest_> the default database in postgresql is IIRC template1
<reinhard> he created a db
<reinhard> named gnue
<reinhard> and "psql gnue" works
<jamest_> i imagine he's getting that running a form?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> running geas
<reinhard> :)
<jamest_> :)
<jamest_> well off the top of my head......
<jamest_> geas (not that I've looked) probably connects via an IP address
<jamest_> this is IIRC disabled in the default pg_hba.conf
<jamest_> i thought that'd just tell you connection refused
<reinhard> hmmm
<jamest_> but they may have chnaged the error
<reinhard> geas connects via "localhost"
<reinhard> but that _is_ an ip adress, right :)
<reinhard> ok thanks for now
<reinhard> Me2000 will be here in 5 hours or so
<jamest_> yip
<reinhard> i will try to help him then
<jamest_> that's 127.0.0.1
<jamest_> am I still here?
<reinhard> yes
<jamest_> thanks
Action: jamest_ is playing this machines firewall settings
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<jamest_> bbiab
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<rm-away> bbl
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<jamest_> bbl
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<dnZzzz> irc is the only medium where you have to ask if you still exist and really mean it :)
Action: dnZzzz is back (gone 06:17:03)
Nick change: dnZzzz -> derek
<derek> jamest you here?
Action: derek guesses its also a medium where you question whether others exist as well
<derek> ok must go bye bye
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<_eric_> hello guys
<jamest_> hi
<ra3vat> hi
<_eric_> jamest_: hello, it's been a while since I came here for the last time, what's on gnue
<_eric_> what's up on gnue...
<jamest_> hmmmm
<jamest_> how long has it been?
<_eric_> I think 2 or 3 monthes
<jamest_> well
<jamest_> we've got a new web site
<_eric_> I saw it
<jamest_> geas is comming along fine
<jamest_> gnuef is also moving along fine
<jamest_> we've got the start of a gnuef designer
<_eric_> that's great
<jamest_> reports is started
<_eric_> I've been playing with corba lately, I knpw you are using it in GEAS
<_eric_> so I wanted to see by myself how it was used exactly in geas
<jamest_> ok
<_eric_> btw, the new site is very nice
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<dneighbo> how do you look for debian packages again?
<dneighbo> apt-cache search foopckgname
<dneighbo> what is the other day
<dneighbo> apt-cache pklist | grep foopckgname
<dneighbo> or something
<dneighbo> i prefer the later way but am not remembering the syntax
Action: dneighbo thinks no one is home :)
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Action: ra3vat is out of debian goodies
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<dneighbo> pkgnames i think is it
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<ToyMan> dneighbo: were you able to pull down my files?
<dneighbo> yip: took about 11 minutes
<ToyMan> jeez it only took me 3 nights @ 28.8 to shoot them over!
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<jamest_> dneighbo: it's rm -rf / i think
<jamest_> man, how can a company with the $$$ ms has not be able to produce a system as nice as debian's apt
<jamest_> I'm updating a few machines via windows update
<ToyMan> think of the hit in tech support revenue
<jamest_> apply security patches
<jamest_> apply IE update (must be seperate)
<jamest_> apply new security patches
<jamest_> apply directx8 update (must be seperate)
<jamest_> of course each damned one requires a reboot
<ToyMan> my old exchange server went down
<ToyMan> no good config files or competent logs to check whats wrong
<ToyMan> M$ wanted $465 up front to talk to me
<jamest_> boing!
<ToyMan> cause it was 'old' software
<ToyMan> time for Postfix
<jamest_> i was about to suggest that
<ToyMan> I've got the server all set up
<ToyMan> just waiting for the local ISP to go wireless DSL
<ToyMan> and give me a fixed IP
<jamest_> a buddy of mine has a win based mail server (not exchange)
<jamest_> every time they sent a mail to a 1500 user mail list the machine would crash
<jamest_> the company told them their Pentium class machine w/ 96MB of ram wasn't enough to be a mail server
<ToyMan> mine's running FreeBSD on a pent 100
<jamest_> I told him they were full of it
<jamest_> and suggested a postfix solution
<ToyMan> one of the local ISP's is running sendmail on freebsd
<ToyMan> 200 mg pent 512 M ram
<ToyMan> 10,000 messages/day - machine never goes past 10% loading
<jamest_> being a windows user he instead went out a got a dual 1Ghz P3 with I think 256MB and raid 
<jamest_> to run his mail server
<jamest_> that is all the machine does is mail
<jamest_> kinda sad actually
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<ToyMan> totally
<ToyMan> sad
<ToyMan> what a waste of a good gaming machine
Action: ToyMan is away: ToyMan is busy inventing the next Monopoly
<jamest_> lol
Nick change: rm-away -> rm-dinner
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Action: ToyMan is back
<dneighbo> ToyMan i did download will try to look if i can unbury self from tasks at work
<ra3vat> jamest_: having trouble to download forms and common from gnuenterprise.org?
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<ToyMan> whenever..:)
<ToyMan> I really think I could cut down your learning curve if we talked on the phone while you
<ToyMan> 're looking
<ToyMan> there is a lot of stray crap in there that's hard to sort through
<ra3vat> jamest_: don't worry took them with MSIE 
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<reinhard> brb
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<dneighbo> ToyMan : let me take precursory look
<dneighbo> then when im ready to start implementing something i will give you a ring
<dneighbo> my first task will be a postgres conversion
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> i.e. get the tables built in postgres
<jamest_> anyone see the demotivational posters at thinkgeek?
<jamest_> http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/posters.html
<chillywilly> dneighbo: btw, geas worked fine for me last night....did that guy ever get it to work?
<ToyMan> dneighbo: OK
<ToyMan> GreatBridge has some MSAccess -> PostgreSQL auto conversion tool.  Anyone use it?
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<dneighbo> nope but i might look at it
<Me2000> # Appears as ANNA.
<dneighbo> hi Me2000 
<Me2000> hello
<dneighbo> bbl
<Me2000> is reinhard here?
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<Me2000> hello reinhard
<reinhard> hi
<Me2000> are you ready to take control?
<reinhard> just a minute
<reinhard> ok now we are more
<reinhard> jamest_ chilliwilly
<reinhard> if anybody of you has an idea what this means
Action: reinhard searches for the error message in the log
<reinhard> error: Connection to database 'gnue' failed: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog
<Me2000> reinhard do you want to connect to me via vnc?
<reinhard> btw it does _not_ mean that the database 'gnue' does not exist
<reinhard> Me2000: i don't think i could help that way either
<reinhard> :(
<reinhard> just trying to get other expert's opinions
<Me2000> perhaps i made a mistake
<reinhard> can you paste the part of geas.conf?
<Me2000> ok
<reinhard> btw did you install gnue or do you run from build directory?
<Me2000> i installed it with make install
<reinhard> ok
<Me2000> [ database test_postgresql ]                                                                                   rnactive         true                                                                                            rntype           PostgreSQL                                                                                      rndbname
<Me2000> gnue                                                                                            rnusername       gnue                                                                                            rnhostname       localhost                                                                                       rnport           5432
<Me2000> connections    1
<Me2000> is that the information you need?
<jamest_> Me2000: in your postgresql host based access file
<jamest_> pg_hba.conf
<jamest_> do you allow connections over tcp/ip?
<jamest_> as localhost is a tcp/ip connect to 127.0.0.1
<Me2000> local        all                                           trust                                               rnhost         all         127.0.0.1     255.255.255.255     trust
<Me2000> i've not touched that file at all
<jamest_> what does
<jamest_> psql -h localhost gnue
<jamest_> give you?
<Me2000> psql: FATAL 1:  Database "gnue" does not exist in the system catalog.
<Me2000> the same error
<jamest_> what OS?
<jamest_> sorry what operating system you running?
<Me2000> Linux 2.2.16-22
<jamest_> which distro?
<Me2000> rh 7.0
<jamest_> hmmmm
<jamest_> I'd look for the postgresql postmaster config file
<Me2000> does psql gnue use tcp/ip for connection?
<jamest_> is this an rpm install?
<jamest_> yes
<Me2000> no
<jamest_> it uses tcp/ip
<jamest_> I'd be tempted to look at your postgresql startup script
<Me2000> why does psql -h localhost gnue don't work
<jamest_> IIRC there is a -i option that the postmaster needs passed
<Me2000> /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/data
<Me2000> there is no -i
<jamest_> add a -i and restart
<jamest_> restart postgresql that is
<jamest_> btw - is this a test database or is production data in it?
<jamest_> did I scare people off? :)
Action: reinhard is looking at his postgres configuration
<reinhard> i have the -i
<dneighbo> jamest_ is a postgres stud monkey
Action: dneighbo gets the tshirt ready for LWE
<jamest_> the -i activates tcp/ip support
<Me2000> nice
<dneighbo> "bow before me, for i am root" - for jamest
<jamest_> Me2000: nice as in "nice, it's now working"
<Me2000> it's a test db
<jamest_> Me2000: or nice as in "nice try loser but you still didn't help me any"
<dneighbo> btw: this is my bad
<dneighbo> as i did have this problem about a YEAR ago on red hat
<dneighbo> it just so long i forgot about it
<Me2000> it works
<Me2000> sorry
<dneighbo> we really need to enter this one in the bug database
<reinhard> hehe
<dneighbo> er we need a bug database or a FAQ for such things :)
<jamest_> dneighbo: it's a postgresql FAQ issue really
<reinhard> postgres administrators guide
<jamest_> it comes up ALOT for newbies w/ postgresql
<dneighbo> jamest_ yes, but we need to say if you get this error
<reinhard> chapter 8 security
<dneighbo> a. make sure database is there
<dneighbo> b. if db is there then check postgres faq and give link
<dneighbo> or whatever
<dneighbo> Me2000 : so now things working for you?
<reinhard> "The backend must be started with the -i option to allow non-local clients to connect"
<dneighbo> or getting new different errors?
<reinhard> if we would only read the docs
<Me2000> yes it asked me for a passsword
<reinhard> it's only 300000 pages
<reinhard> ;)
<jamest_> reinhard: thats a little misleading
<reinhard> Me2000: that's ok
<jamest_> as even local clients can't connect via tcp/ip without the -i
<Me2000> my client is local, isn't it?
<dneighbo> yes it is
<reinhard> jamest_ it's ok
<dneighbo> its not a local vs remote issue
<dneighbo> its a tcp/ip issue
<jamest_> yes your client is local however it's using tcp/ip to access postgresql
<reinhard> the context around this sentence explaines it
<jamest_> reinhard: ok
<reinhard> it's tcp/ip vs. unix sockets
<dneighbo> psql uses sockes
<dneighbo> sockets
<dneighbo> geas uses tcp/ip
<dneighbo> which is why psql was workign
<dneighbo> but geas wasnt
<reinhard> dneighbo: btw a good idea
<reinhard> we should have a sort of faq
<reinhard> w/ every problem we encountered ever
<reinhard> wrt geas
<reinhard> and when somebody gets an error message
<reinhard> he can search this file and see if anybody had same message ever before
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> a knowledge base
<reinhard> even for messages that are not "our fault"
<reinhard> :)
<dneighbo> mabye i will put one on line
<reinhard> dneighbo: exactly
<reinhard> that would be cool
<dneighbo> i would like to see us use double choco latte
<reinhard> like a search machine
<dneighbo> as its has trouble tickets
<dneighbo> project management
<reinhard> anyway
<dneighbo> the solved trouble tickets become a knowledge base
<reinhard> Me2000: everything ok now?
<Me2000> yes, i've just put the noodels in the water :-)
<reinhard> mmmmmhh
<Me2000> i think reinhards idea is good
<reinhard> ok how will we name that file?
<dneighbo> um FAQ
<reinhard> for now i think a text file in doc directory will do
Action: jamest_ remembers that since people are wanting more stuff on ash it's best that he sneaks away quietly
Action: jamest_ is away: I'm busy
<dneighbo> i think that what it is called in gnuef/ tree
<dneighbo> rofl
<reinhard> dneighbo: ok
<dneighbo> let me double check that though
<reinhard> there already is a faq.txt
Action: jamest_ is back (gone 00:00:25)
<Me2000> thank you jamest
<reinhard> which contains more general questions
<jamest_> btw - is jcater hiding?
<dneighbo> http://lxr.gnue.org/gnue/source/gnuef/FAQ
<reinhard> like "why is geas so slow" etc
<dneighbo> is how we did it for gnue
<dneighbo> forms
<jamest_> Me2000: no problem glad to help
<dneighbo> jamest_ i havent seen him much lately 
<dneighbo> jamest_ i think he started sleeping again :)
<reinhard> dneighbo: ok i will adopt
Action: dneighbo is very happy this was solved and just us all being ignorant (cept jamest_)
<dneighbo> Me2000 : thanks for taking the time and being patient to give us time to help, i know it can be frustrating trying to use a piece of software and not being able to install it, hopefully it wont scare you away. :)
<Me2000> i thank you
<chillywilly> did you get it to work?
<Me2000> yes
Action: chillywilly has been discussing the forum with Raj and he is picking it apart
<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> good
<Me2000> whats up chillywilly?
<reinhard> hey chillywilly
<reinhard> we made it work
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> Me2000: ah nothing just something else
<reinhard> you can get out of your hiding-place
<reinhard> :)
<Me2000> dneighbo: i think the frustration is bigger with non os-software, there is no way to locate errors exactly.
<chillywilly> I wasn't hiding
<reinhard> chillywilly: j/k
<chillywilly> how dare you accuse me of such things
<chillywilly> :P
<ra3vat> bbl
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<reinhard> Me2000: can you please give me the filename of the file you had to edit
<reinhard> to put the -i in?
<jamest_> reinhard: that's distro dependent
<Me2000> perhaps you can give me some more time and tell me what are the next steps?
<reinhard> for redhat
<chillywilly> reinhard: that is a common thing you have to do add the -i
<jamest_> on old redhats it is like /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql IIRC
Action: chillywilly should've thought of that
<chillywilly> doh!
<Me2000> reinhard: which one do you mean?
<reinhard> the file you edited to put the -i in
<jamest_> on debian it's part of a config file in /etc/postgresql/ IIRC
<jamest_> i think a general mention of "make sure your postgresql postmaster is accepting tcp/ip connections (the -i option)"
<jamest_> as source installs are different too
<Me2000> i just used /usr/local/pgsql/bin/postmaster -i -D /usr/local/pgsql/data
<reinhard> ok thanks all
Action: reinhard is just trying to write a good FAQ entry because it's the first one :)
<Me2000> i've compiled the postgresql sources, i made the startup-script by myself
<reinhard> Me2000: ah
<reinhard> you don't start w/ runlevel
<Me2000> perhaps pg_ctl is better
<Me2000> yes
<reinhard> chillywilly: -i is not default on debian systems either?
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<chillywilly> reinhard: I know that's why I should've though about it....I remember having to turn it on
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<chillywilly> ack!
<neilt> hello all
<jamest_> hey jcater
<jcLunch> hey
<jamest_> and neil
Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater
Action: jcater is sick
<jcater> just had a SirCam worm outbreak
<chillywilly> not Code Red?
<Me2000> hello neilt
<jamest_> jcater: ouch
Action: reinhard commited the first version of geas FAQ error file
<reinhard> Me2000: ok the next steps
<Me2000> where shold i look next in the docs to go on?
<reinhard> heheh
<reinhard> docs???
<reinhard> what's that????
<reinhard> ;)
<neilt> reinhard: i am totally confused
<reinhard> well it actually depends
<reinhard> what you want to do with geas now
<reinhard> neilt: can I try to change this?
<Me2000> perhaps documentation is better than docs :-)
<neilt> if you can explain lists
<reinhard> without a whiteboard? that's hard ;)
<Me2000> i would like to see a working frontend
<reinhard> Me2000: try to run addrbook.py
<reinhard> it's a _primitive_ frontend
<reinhard> like a hello world program for geas :)
<neilt> reinhard: btw, by introspection i meant information about the class itself
<Me2000> ok
<reinhard> neilt: ah sorry
<neilt> but your addition was good also
<reinhard> i think this will be useful
<reinhard> you mean like
<reinhard> "what methods does this class provide" etc?
<neilt> yes
<reinhard> "what fields does it have"
<reinhard> ok
<neilt> yes
<reinhard> IIRC we were thinking about having pseudo-businessobjects
<reinhard> containing that information
<reinhard> like an object
<reinhard> system::classinfo
<neilt> so we can make software the can moddify itsself based on installed components without a configuration process
<reinhard> which is not really mapped to a db table
<reinhard> much like the /proc filesystem under linux is not really a filesystem
<neilt> yes no need for a db table
<neilt> just the server returning information
<reinhard> yes and using the same interface for system information
<reinhard> than we use for normal data
<neilt> yes
<reinhard> ok good
<reinhard> now to the lists :)
<reinhard> class parent
<reinhard> {
<reinhard>   child [] children;
<reinhard> }
<reinhard> class child
<reinhard> {
<reinhard>   ...
<reinhard> }
<reinhard> is in fact the same as
<reinhard> class parent
<reinhard> {
<reinhard>   ...
<reinhard> }
<reinhard> class child
<reinhard> {
<reinhard>   parent *father;
<reinhard>   ...
<reinhard> }
<reinhard> just another way of writing it
<reinhard> and the other direction of accessing
<neilt> so you are saying that from parent i can not iterate through the list of children
<reinhard> you can
<neilt> so to do a list the server has to
<reinhard> but every child can only have one parent
<neilt> do a lookup of all childrent that point back to the parent
<reinhard> yes exactly
<reinhard> which can be very fast for example
Action: chillywilly is away: shower
<neilt> and the children can only have one pointer
<reinhard> when the server implicitly creates an index on the parent pointer
<reinhard> yes only one
<reinhard> which is good for normal master/detail
<reinhard> like order/order_item
<reinhard> etc
<reinhard> because every order item is only part of _one_ order
<reinhard> and every contact belongs to only _one_ organization
<reinhard> (well i would even not be 100% sure about that)
<neilt> ok i get it now, thanks
<neilt> its not a list at all
<neilt> we need to change the syntax
<reinhard> i only found out by looking at how geas creates the classes for lists
<neilt> sometime
<neilt> not now
<reinhard> s/classes/tables
<dneighbo> hey if you all are gonna make geas useful, im quitting ;)
<neilt> dneighbo: we are still waiting for a driver
<neilt> so we can test geas
<reinhard> neilt: in fact i only found out because there was a _bug_ in that table creation :)
<reinhard> yes true
<reinhard> all we know by now is that geas creates the tables correctly
<neilt> dneighbo: when will that be done?
<reinhard> never ever tried to store data in those tables
<neilt> dneighbo: ?
<reinhard> neilt: he is quitting i think
<reinhard> j/k
<dneighbo> hmmm this is case of poeple pointing fingers :)
<dneighbo> forms thinks methods dont work, which makes hard to write a dirver that uses methods
<neilt> dneighbo: i missed that
<dneighbo> geas wants forms to have driver before moving forward :)
<dneighbo> ??
<neilt> we cant even access data that uses lists
<neilt> nevermind about methods
<dneighbo> seriously, they are redoing all the db drivers and its system right now
<neilt> we just want a driver that works with current functionality
<reinhard> does the driver that uses geas like a database work?
<dneighbo> in a branch
<neilt> so we can test
<dneighbo> when that is done and stable
<neilt> reinhard: it works
<neilt> but not for master/detail
<dneighbo> then i think they will look at extending the geas driver
<neilt> reinhard: which is a big duh!
<neilt> which as been in geas for 6 months now
<neilt> master/detail that is
<reinhard> you mean [] and * elements?
<dneighbo> it works for master detail
<dneighbo> as long as you relational master detail
<dneighbo> adn not object master detail
<dneighbo> the geas driver was written nearly a year ago now
<dneighbo> by jade
<dneighbo> so it only had the functionality that geas had at that time
<neilt> reinhard: yes
<neilt> it does not work for [] and *
<reinhard> ok
<dneighbo> one of the BIGGEST issues
<dneighbo> was introspection
<dneighbo> jade had issues treating geas like objects
<dneighbo> as he had no way to tell what objects were what via the API
<dneighbo> i think some of this was fixed
<dneighbo> to get us where we are at now but other parts werent
<dneighbo> jamest will look at this soon (i hope)
<dneighbo> i was hoping before LWE
<dneighbo> but am doubting it now
<neilt> dneighbo: how do we find out if we have solved all of the problems with introspection
<dneighbo> write a geas driver for forms :)
<neilt> we have just been discussing this in the mail list
<dneighbo> when we try to do something we cant, we know we need to fix it :)
Action: neilt thinks that is sad
Action: dneighbo hasnt kept up on gnue mail today
<dneighbo> neilt: well the RIGHT answer is to design the driver
<neilt> as it releates to methods
<dneighbo> and see where there are holes
<dneighbo> but in current cycles 'design' means write prototype code or so it has thus far
<neilt> but we have a lot of drivers, so we should know something about what is needed
<dneighbo> neilt : the other drivers work quite a bit differently
<dneighbo> in fact thats the biggest issue i see
<dneighbo> is can GEAS and 2 tier
<dneighbo> work under same hierarchy
<dneighbo> as they are pretty radically different
<neilt> ok, will thanks for letting me vent
<neilt> its nice to be waiting on someone else for a change :)
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<Mr_You> <rik> any python programmers around? Guido van Rossum is doing a live irc
<Mr_You> +interview on openrpojects at the moment, in #live.
<dneighbo> believe me i want to use geas too :)
<dneighbo> #live sucks
<dneighbo> its totally moderated
<dneighbo> adn they dont answer you 
<dneighbo> it pissed me off, and i was disappointed :)
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:18:24)
<Me2000> can i use orbit-python under windows too?
<jamest_> the drivers are being rewritten
<jamest_> however I've been hit with some work that must be done first
<dneighbo> Me2000 no
<jamest_> i expect to wrap it up tonight and be back on in friday
<dneighbo> well kind of
<dneighbo> ORBit isnt working on winodws (or it wasnt)
<dneighbo> we REALLY need to fix this
<dneighbo> either by fixing orbit and orbit-python to work on windows
<Me2000> so the python frotend isn't working under windows too?
<dneighbo> or by using an orb that works on windows for clients
<dneighbo> python front end works fine on windows
<dneighbo> it just can not talk to GEAS 
<dneighbo> so only two tier python front end (GNUe Forms) works
<dneighbo> one could use a different orb for windows
<dneighbo> and talk to geas using orbit on backend
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<dneighbo> just a matter of trying it otu
<dneighbo> some one should soon :)
<dneighbo> as when gnueconfig comes out and thing sstart to go online this will be a major issue
<dneighbo> unixGh0d you here?
<Me2000> which corba-something supports both python and windows?
<chillywilly> dneighbo: have they ever ported ORBit to cygwin?
<Me2000> or are there big differences between these different corba-sometings?
<dneighbo> chillywilly they might ahve
<dneighbo> i would say that would be first item to check
<chillywilly> dneighbo: I saw that the had KDE running on windows
<dneighbo> try getting orbit to work with windows
<chillywilly> dneighbo: we should get Gnome runnong on winders
<dneighbo> i think um that one works
<chillywilly> that would be cool
<dneighbo> is it omniORB
<dneighbo> er
Action: dneighbo is having brain death
<chillywilly> http://www.gtlinc.com/gnome.html
<dneighbo> http://gnue.org/corba.html
<dneighbo> was from our INITIAL evaluation on what corba orb to use WAY back when
<chillywilly> looks proprietary
<dneighbo> i think omniORB works on windows and has pyton interface
<dneighbo> and its GPL
<dneighbo> it is certified as CORBA 2.1 compliant by OMG
<chillywilly> ORBit is 2.2
<chillywilly> er
<dneighbo> im half tempted to dump ORBit and say lets use omniORB based on all the issues ORBit faces at times
<chillywilly> maybe not
<Me2000> well: http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/2313/2000/6/0/3952836/
<chillywilly> I forget
<dneighbo> ORBit : hahahhahaha
<dneighbo> in 2005 maybe
<dneighbo> they ahve a 2.1 branch
<dneighbo> but its not usable
<dneighbo> threads arent usable
<dneighbo> etc etc 
<dneighbo> believe me i want to use ORBit as its FSF issue and comes on about all linux systems
<dneighbo> but its looking to not be business class
<dneighbo> and thier original pledge to help us when we need it
<chillywilly> well omniORB is c++
<dneighbo> is bogged by politics and branching
<dneighbo> i.e. they cant fix things for us
<chillywilly> you gonna let us right geas in C++ naybe using the bayonne clases?
<chillywilly> Dave has lots of nice code
<dneighbo> unless they put in an obscure branch because they are so tied to GNOME's needs
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> GNU Common C++ is nice too
<chillywilly> haha!
<dneighbo> http://www.uk.research.att.com/omniORB/omniORBpy/index.html
<dneighbo> is the python binding
<dneighbo> jade uses extensively and said he woudl never go back to klunky horrible orbit/orbitpython again
<dneighbo> i say if orbit doesnt work on windows
<dneighbo> we try omniORB on windows
<chillywilly> bayonne and geas are both essentially servers...he has a nice plugin system too *hint* *hint*
<dneighbo> if it works and is nice
<chillywilly> eh, I am just yaking your chain
<dneighbo> we can look at trying to make geas use or ahve geas have option to use
<dneighbo> anyhow
<dneighbo> reinhard and neilt are probably cringing at this point
<dneighbo> Me2000 you interested in trying to get windows client working with omniORB talkign to geas server on linux using orbit?
<jamest_> chillywilly: i agree w/ derek as when we chose orbit we had 
<chillywilly> seiously though, bayonne and GNU Common C++ has good stuff man :P....but that would be painful to rewrite yet again...I don;t see it happening
<jamest_> a) the orbit people saying we'll fix what you need
<jamest_> b) the fact that C is the FSF std and the C++ ABI was std
<jamest_> I'm not sure what if any of those issues remain
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> I understand why you chose ORBit
<jamest_> chillywilly: even a mix 'n match (if possible) might be ok
<dneighbo> im thinking its time to consider switching ORBs
<dneighbo> as ORBit is what we feared, controlled by gnome
<chillywilly> they should continue to push ORBit forward so people can use a multi-threaded ORB
<jamest_> a C++/moniORB|MICO|FooOrb2001 gateway talking to geas core
<jamest_> or something 
<chillywilly> fuck it, I'll install 2 ORBs
<dneighbo> by moving to omniORBit we dont proclude others from using orbit
<chillywilly> I don;t care
<jamest_> chillywilly: we pushed, nothing happened
<dneighbo> infact we should allow either
<dneighbo> as for moving to C++
<dneighbo> i would rather not rewrite working code at this point
<dneighbo> i dont see issues with C
<chillywilly> me netiher
<dneighbo> i do see issues with ORBit
<dneighbo> starting with fact it doesnt work on windows
<neilt> as to C++, as long as we dont use any of the object stuff it is great
<dneighbo> and is bottle necking us elsewhwere (threading)
<dneighbo> the problem i have in leaving orbit behind would be we add a dependency most pepole natively dont have :)
<dneighbo> but i am game for trying to actively support both
<dneighbo> so you can configure geas to work with either ominORB or ORBit
<dneighbo> or something like that
Action: neilt wonders where reinhard is, in this discussion
<dneighbo> anyhow just ideas
<chillywilly> but csan you call C++ code in C?
<dneighbo> but i definitely thing we will have to have omniORB on teh windows clients
<dneighbo> and in talking to andrew this is possible
<dneighbo> to have omniORB client with ORBit server
<dneighbo> should not be additional code to GEAS
<dneighbo> only to forms
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<dneighbo> as the a geas driver for omniORB would have to be made
<neilt> just for the record, i am NOT in favor of using C++
<dneighbo> neilt at this point neither am i
<dneighbo> chillywilly you make good points and i dont discredit them
<dneighbo> but we have a decent code base taht would not be trivial to switch
<dneighbo> and i think we get minimal gain
<dneighbo> so the whole C vs C++ debate aside
<chillywilly> I am not saying switch...I would rather have a better ORbit I am a bit of a C zealot
<dneighbo> i dont think its the right move at this time :)
<dneighbo> i do want to have a choice other than ORBit though
<dneighbo> and i see a real benefit in it
Action: reinhard was writing a long email and not looking
Action: reinhard will now read the log
<chillywilly> sure, I just can't see how we can use a C++ ORB though in C
<jamest_> neilt: I'm not a C++ fan either
<dneighbo> write C extensions for it
<neilt> c calls c++ and c++ call c, no problem
<neilt> you just use the correct syntax
<jamest_> and any orb that works on windows with python  is fine 
<chillywilly> how do I constrct a C++ object in C?
<neilt> chillywilly: you dont and that is good :)
<neilt> but you can call code both ways
<neilt> with orbit at least it creates the objects and the code just handles them
<chillywilly> ummm, can you provide an example then
<neilt> i suspect it would be the same for another orb
<neilt> and example of what?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<chillywilly> don't you need client stubs?
<chillywilly> eh, I am confused I think
<chillywilly> you woldn't have to worry about it
<neilt> in the header files you put in something like
<chillywilly> how hairy is the coce gonna be if we make things thread safe and then we also support a non-thread safe ORB?
<neilt> ifdef c++
<chillywilly> s/coce/code
<neilt> sorry
<reinhard> ok finished with log
<reinhard> my position is actually
<dneighbo> jamest_ i disagee
<chillywilly> sctaully that shouldn't matter eother
<neilt> let me look at an exmaple
<neilt> hold on
<dneighbo> any ORB that works with windows and is Free Software is fine ;)
<reinhard> c is better that c++
<reinhard> geas should be not too tied to a specific communication means
<reinhard> geas should not have that orbit dependent code all over
<dneighbo> reinhard EXACTLY
<reinhard> but only in a single place
<dneighbo> should allow any ORB
<reinhard> and we should be able to provide other means alternatively
<chillywilly> yes
<dneighbo> and even non CORBA stuff EVENTUALLY
<reinhard> like another ORB
<reinhard> or unix sockets
<reinhard> etc
<chillywilly> Soup
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> btw: didnt mean to have this conversatino :)
<reinhard> hugh i have spoken ;)
<dneighbo> just wanted to help me2000 :)
<chillywilly> (the gnome saop thingy)
<chillywilly> er, soap
<reinhard> brb
<dneighbo> get an ORB working on windows :)
<neilt> chillywilly: you do something like
<neilt> #ifdef __cplusplus
<neilt> extern "C" {
<neilt> #endif
<neilt> and then the header files work for both c and c++
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<chillywilly> neilt: yeah that's for including C in C++
Action: chillywilly has a wrapper for GSL in C++
<chillywilly> GNU Scientific Library
<neilt> it means that the functions defined in the header file can be called from c or c++
<chillywilly> thing is to be a CORBA serveryou have to have stubs and such and a C++ ORB will give you C++ code
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> but I suppose you can still call the Ccode
<chillywilly> doh!
<neilt> all of the stubs are just function calls
<neilt> exactly
<chillywilly> well in C++ they are real objects, a C++ ORB takes advatage of the OO of the language
<neilt> does it now ??
<chillywilly> but anyway
<neilt> even in the interface
<chillywilly> doesn't metter
<chillywilly> well, no i can;t say that I haven't looked at the CORBA spec or ever used a C++ ORB so feel free to ignore me
<chillywilly> :P
<neilt> i am interested in learning from you not ignoring you
<chillywilly> well, I don't know what I am talking about, I just thought I did
<chillywilly> not the same thing :P
Action: neilt goes to look at source
<chillywilly> sure I know how ORBit does it, but ORBit is in C
<Me2000> dneighbo: you really got an orb working on windows?
<chillywilly> I was figuring that C++ would have a generic client class that you would have to inheit from or something liek that
<chillywilly> liek it would proces the idl
<chillywilly> make a generic class
<chillywilly> you inherit from it
<chillywilly> and overload the methods
<chillywilly> that wold be the OO way to do it
<chillywilly> th base class takes care of marshalling etc
<chillywilly> ansd you only add what you need in the child
<chillywilly> this si my guess
<neilt> just a quick look and it looks like you are right, the stub examples are all classes
<chillywilly> the CORAB C++ mappins in the spec would make it nmore clear
<chillywilly> er, CORBA
<neilt> at least for onmiORB
<chillywilly> the spec says how they should do it too
<neilt> the documentation for onmiORB is certainly a LOT better than orbit
<chillywilly> they have appendixes for vairous OO langauges
<Me2000> sorry for disturbing your discussion, but how do i get started with an two-tier application on geas?
<chillywilly> and how they should map
<chillywilly> Me2000: I think you can use the forms designer....
<chillywilly> dneighbo, jamest_ are 2-tier masters
<Me2000> is there an example application i can run under windows?
<chillywilly> you can run the forms cleint and a form and connect to geas on a server....the example forms are in gnue/gnuef/samples
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> you don;t need geas
<chillywilly> nevermind that
<Me2000> someone told me it would be better to use geas
<jamest_> Me2000: you don't need geas for two tier
<chillywilly> I haven't played wiht 2-tier much
<chillywilly> jamest_ uses it at work though
<jamest_> just one of the supported backends
<chillywilly> and I think he has soem apps
<neilt> just looking at the omniORB docs it looks like it is a better documeted and better deisgned ORB
<chillywilly> it is nicer...at least so I have heard
<chillywilly> multi-threading is nice
<neilt> reinhard: did you have anything before i go and you leave for vacation?
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<chillywilly> neilt: wow it actaully has documentation
<chillywilly> hooray
<reinhard> neilt: yes
<neilt> yes
<chillywilly> yes
<reinhard> neilt: i wish you 2 pleasant weeks :)
<chillywilly> neilt: where tyou going?
<reinhard> apart from that - nothing
<neilt> i am not going anyplace
<neilt> reinhard is going away
<neilt> to play
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> I read your statement wrong
<chillywilly> where are you going reinhard?
<reinhard> chillywilly: holiday for 2 weeks
<neilt> later all
neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.132.155.Dial1.Providence1.Level3.net) left irc: 
<reinhard> l8r neil
<reinhard> too late
<reinhard> chillywilly: to the mountains
<reinhard> w/ kids and wife
<reinhard> and w/o computer
<reinhard> leaving sunday morning
<reinhard> chillywilly: from this past discussion
<reinhard> i think there is a new item on the wishlist for new methods code
<reinhard> concentrate the orbit dependent stuff at a single place
<reinhard> to make it easy to switch to different communication means
<reinhard> in the beginning of geas i proposed to write a client library
<reinhard> which is a wrapper around the corba interface
<reinhard> but provides a orbit independent c interface
<reinhard> and clients could build on that c interface
<reinhard> we would be happy if we had that now
<reinhard> because we could easily exchange the orb
<reinhard> without changing the clients
<reinhard> ping
<chillywilly> yeah, well
<chillywilly> that's a lot more work
<chillywilly> libcomms
<chillywilly> :P
<reinhard> chillywilly: i think it would be worth it
<chillywilly> you have a proposal?
<chillywilly> or you just stated that
<reinhard> well i am just a voice in the mass of developers :)
<chillywilly> ah
<reinhard> i have no proposal for a interface or something like that
<reinhard> i have a vision
<reinhard> i have not a single line of code
<chillywilly> I thought about attempting to do that too, but I think it would be too much for me to do at once
<reinhard> but bill gates got rich with that, too ;)
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> I don't want to be rich reinhard
<chillywilly> I am rich
<reinhard> rofl
<reinhard> well actually
<chillywilly> rich with life
<chillywilly> family
<chillywilly> freinds
<reinhard> rich is not a matter of having much, but a matter of wishing little
<chillywilly> freedom
<chillywilly> yeah
<chillywilly> nice words
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<chillywilly> most of all I am blessed witht he riches of christ :)
<reinhard> :)
<ajbusy> mornin all :)
<chillywilly> on that note...I shall leave now, but I will return
Action: ajbusy goes off to uni
<reinhard> morning ajbusy
<chillywilly> bye ajbusy
<reinhard> chillywilly: i will be gone soon
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> well
<chillywilly> have fun
<chillywilly> take it easy
<chillywilly> enjoy your family
<reinhard> will be here tomorrow again i think
<reinhard> still here for 2 days
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> ah
<reinhard> so probably ttyl
<reinhard> :)
<chillywilly> then I'll see ya when I see ya
<chillywilly> yip
<reinhard> ok
Action: chillywilly is away: bbl
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<Me2000> jamest_ uses it at work thoughrnr28njamest_ sagt:rnjust one of the supported backendsrnrni've again a question to the two-tier arch. of gnue
<Me2000> which role plays the geas in a two tier arch. or is there no place for geas?
<jamest_> no role in 2-tier
<Me2000> i thought someone told me that i could use it like a db backend
<jamest_> you can if you like
<jamest_> gnuef currently thinks of geas as just another database
<Me2000> what are the advanteges?
<Me2000> or aren't there any?
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<jamest_> well eventually gnuef and geas will work well together
<jamest_> right now using geas lets you use gcd files to create your storage
<jamest_> and it will be easier to add geas specific features when gnuef supports them
<Me2000> that means i can use these gcd files on the one hand for the frontend and on the other for creating the tabels using geas?
<jamest_> that's it
<jamest_> you'd run the gcd thru geas to create the tables
<jamest_> then use gnuef to access them thru geas
<Me2000> ok i understand (i think)
<reinhard> Me2000: the main point in GEAS is (imho)
<reinhard> that the _logic_ will run on geas
<reinhard> and we have a _very_ thin client
<reinhard> with geas we have 3 tiers
<reinhard> the database backend
<reinhard> geas where the logic is
<reinhard> and the client (forms/reports)
<Me2000> ok, but later (if this works fine) i can migrate from fat to thin clients with nearly no changes?
<reinhard> if you use geas now: yes
<reinhard> if you use 2-tier forms configuration: not so easy
<reinhard> actually it was like
<reinhard> we always wanted 3-tier
<reinhard> but geas was not ready for production use and several people already needed running applications
<Me2000> what do you mean with if you use geas now?
<reinhard> (like jamest, dneighbo, jcater etc)
<reinhard> now you have basically 2 options
<reinhard> a) create tables in the postgres database, access those tables with gnue forms, and forget that geas exists at all
<reinhard> b) write gcd's and use geas, but only for data access, not for methods (yet)
<reinhard> with a) you will have a hard time to convert to geas later
<reinhard> with b) it will be better
<Me2000> i will choose b
<reinhard> and chilliwilly will hopefully work on methods implementation of geas soon
<Me2000> but what's about the frontend
<reinhard> GNUE forms works with geas
<reinhard> but only restricted
<reinhard> i.e. you can't use all features of geas
<Me2000> will there be big changes in the future if i select b)
<reinhard> actually it depends very much on how soon you need this stuff
<reinhard> because all that we are talking about is likely to change very much within a month or two
<Me2000> asap
<reinhard> currently not very much works wrt gnue forms and geas working together
<reinhard> but that will change real soon i hope
<reinhard> Me2000: you think you will be able to do some coding to fix the holes you encounter
<Me2000> what are the main problems?
<reinhard> or you only want to use what's there?
<reinhard> well in a nutshell
<reinhard> geas is a bit object oriented
<reinhard> in gcd's you have a syntax like
<reinhard> class order
<reinhard> {
<Me2000> i think i wold help if i could, but i thnik my qualifications aren't good enought.
<reinhard>   item *what;
<reinhard> }
<reinhard> behind the scene geas will build a table order
<reinhard> with an implicit primary key called "objectid"
<reinhard> and "what" being a column containing a foreign key to the item table
<reinhard> of course you also have "normal" fields like
<reinhard>   char text<30>;
<reinhard> where geas creates a column of varchar(30)
<reinhard> currently forms only deals with such "normal" columns
<reinhard> not with those special things
<reinhard> wrt quailification
<reinhard> not sure about yours
<reinhard> but like a year ago i joined this project
<reinhard> and i volunteered to do some translation of documentation into german
<reinhard> because i thought my qualification would suffice for that
<reinhard> and now i co-maintain geas :)
<Me2000> nice
<Me2000> but at the moment is it possible to create e.g. a small accounting application?
<reinhard> yes it would
<reinhard> just you can't use all features of geas yet
<reinhard> you got the addrbook example running?
<reinhard> there is a gnue forms front end for that, too
<Me2000> no
<Me2000> i'm still working on this
<reinhard> you having problems?
<Me2000> but what's about printing, someone told me the report-generator produces an xml-file. are there some solutions which makes it possible to produce e.g. an invoice?
<jamest_> not yet
<Me2000> why not?
<jamest_> time
<jamest_> in fact I'm not sure the reports engine works at all in the new db branch
<reinhard> Me2000: all of us are doing this in our free time
<Me2000> for what?
<reinhard> Me2000: for whom was this question?
<Me2000> for jamest_: time
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> i think he meant time to code it :)
<reinhard> all of us have a fulltime job
<reinhard> and do gnue in their free time
<jamest_> yip
<reinhard> so there are phases when development is not _so_ fast as it should be
<jamest_> the only person paid full time to work on gnue was the original author of geas
<jamest_> and he quit his job :)
<jamest_> wonder if that means something .......
<reinhard> well to be precise neilt and me get sponsored by our companies
<jamest_> true
<jamest_> but not really full time
<Me2000> so there is no solution for creating reports?
<reinhard> which is not so special because we _are_ the respective companies ;)
<jamest_> reinhard: :)
<jamest_> Me2000: the reports engine if still functional will spit out xml
<Me2000> i also have a full time job (doing civil service)
<jamest_> you'd just have to have something to translate it
<jamest_> IIRC jcater was hoping to get back on this soon but gfdes and gnuef are keeping him busy
<Me2000> so neilt and reinhard are freelancers?
<reinhard> yip
<reinhard> we have some real world projects to keep us alive (financially)
<reinhard> and the rest of the time we spend for gnue
<Me2000> i'm searching for an solution for a mid-sized companie which needs a very special accounting solution?
<reinhard> well and for wife, kids, social life, drinks, tv etc
<reinhard> ;)
<reinhard> we are both planning to use gnue for our future real life projects
<reinhard> but we have no pressure
<reinhard> so instead of building a complete "quick'n'dirty" system very fast
<reinhard> we build one block after the other
<reinhard> but we try to make it perfect
<reinhard> so it will still be some time till we can say "gnue is finished"
<Me2000> even in the .com world are nearly no solutions aiming on the same target.
<reinhard> Me2000: we all know there are no such solutions
<reinhard> that's why we are building gnue
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> but if gnue was a house we were still working on the cellar
<reinhard> because we want to build it solid
<reinhard> if you understand what i mean
<reinhard> and it's manybe a bit too early to live in this house
<Me2000> i've looked for some week's here in germany for a solution
<reinhard> you can use parts of gnue, like forms etc.
<reinhard> actually it's the same way like the gnu systems was built
<reinhard> they built a c library and a compiler
<Me2000> if you were me, wich solution would you provide that companie?
<reinhard> they made this very good
<reinhard> but it was a long time till the _whole_ system was finished
<reinhard> Me2000: hard to tell
<reinhard> i currently support a proprietary product
<Me2000> hard to me
<reinhard> and want to switch to gnue as soon as it's usable
<reinhard> and i don't know many other products :(
<Me2000> which one do you use?
<reinhard> it's one only available here in austria
<reinhard> a small product of a small company
<reinhard> with about 200 installs in austria
<reinhard> and about 10 outside austria :)
<Me2000> bad luck
<reinhard> the number of persons currently supporting that product is:
<reinhard> 1
<reinhard> :)
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<Me2000> all solutions i have seen were bad or very bad
<Me2000> all of these solutions have in common that you need the expansive support of the producer.
<reinhard> well i don't know how to say this in english
<Me2000> say it in german
<reinhard> wir sind noch nicht soweit, daß andere auf unseren Zug aufspringen können
<Me2000> :-)
<reinhard> momentan müssen alle die mitmachen noch helfen den Zug zu ziehen :)
<Me2000> was soll ich tun
<jcater> no fair
<Me2000> ok
<reinhard> jcater: i try to translate
<reinhard> you can't yet jump up the train and let it carry you
<reinhard> everybody joining the project has still to help pull the train
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<reinhard> Me2000: asked what shall i do
<reinhard> Me2000: that depends on whether you have the time and energy to help pull the train
<reinhard> if you have you can help the project very much
<reinhard> and gain a lot for yourself
<reinhard> believe me i gain _very_ much from working for this project
<jamest_> headaches, stress, blood pressure
<reinhard> wrt education, experience and improving my english :)
<jamest_> brb
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Action: jcater must reaffirm that just being here asking questions is helpful to the project :)
<reinhard> Me2000: if you don't want to help pull the train
<reinhard> you'd probably reach your goal faster if you take the bus so to say :)
<reinhard> yes i second that just using (== trying to use) gnue, asking questions and giving comments
<reinhard> is a great way of helping
<reinhard> neilt: wb
<Me2000> but i don't have enought expierience to participate to a project like this.
<reinhard> that's not true
<reinhard> within the last 2 days you
<reinhard> 1. pointed out a bug in geas (mysql problem)
<reinhard> 2. pointed out a problem w/ postgres that has to be documented
<reinhard> 3. made clear to us where we should set more priority to make gnue useful sooner
<reinhard> 4. gave us an example of what type of company are potential users of gnue
<reinhard> all of that is _very_ important
<Me2000> i don't think so, but a fact is that all people in here everytime i came here everybody was very kind
<reinhard> this is no joke
<reinhard> you were helping us very much
<reinhard> and we are glad about everybody playing with our toys
Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch
<neilt> reinhard: thanks, and hello all again
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<Me2000> i think the only help you need at the moment are people which help you to develop code and documentation.
<reinhard> and people that tell us what is needed in pracice
<reinhard> and people that motivate us :)
<Me2000> i think the idea of this project is very interesting
Action: reinhard has to go to bed now
<neilt> i think the discussion we had earlier means that the unit and money classes are all messed up
<neilt> hold on
<reinhard> oh ok
<Me2000> as i said even in the .com world are no compareable solutions
<neilt> where did you find the vendor problem, in what class
<neilt> recommended_vendor
<reinhard> purchasing module
<neilt> aahh
<reinhard> iirc
<neilt> so does this still work
<neilt>   # -------------------------------------------------------------------------
<neilt>   # conversion_unit - Storage for all of the conversion factors.  Only used
<neilt>   # by unit::conversion.  Should never be used directly.
<neilt>   # -------------------------------------------------------------------------
<neilt>   private class conversion_unit
<neilt>   {
<neilt>     unit::quantity  amount;
<neilt>   };
<neilt>   
<neilt>   # -------------------------------------------------------------------------
<neilt>   # conversion - convert between different units.
<neilt>   # -------------------------------------------------------------------------
<neilt>   class conversion
<neilt>   { 
<neilt>     unit::conversion_unit  [] units;
<neilt>     
<neilt>               # returns t or f if can or cannot do conversion
<neilt>     char can_convert( text source_unit, text result_unit );
<neilt>               # returns resulting amount
<neilt>     text convert( text source_unit, text source_amount, text result_unit);
<neilt>   };
<neilt> -
<neilt> each conversion_unit has to be unique
<neilt> ?
<neilt> and not be reused
<neilt> sorry i posted the wrong class 
<ajmitch> why does this remind me of what i've been learning at uni?...
<neilt> conversion::units has to be uniquer
<neilt> unique
<neilt> i am the one that should go to bed
<reinhard> conversion_unit is correct
<neilt> but
<neilt>  unit::conversion_unit  [] units;
<neilt> is not correct, because you cannot reuse the conversion_unit object
<reinhard> you cannot use a conversion_unit in two conversions
<neilt> Me2000: sorry to interrupt, but wanted to catch reinhard before he signed off
<reinhard> if you have a conversion
<reinhard> 1 bottle = 0.7 liter
<reinhard> and another one
<reinhard> 1 bottle = 0.5 liter
<reinhard> you have 2 instances of conversion_units which both say "1 bottle"
<neilt> but 1 bottle is 1 bottle no matter what the other side of the = is
<Me2000> neilt: no problem
<reinhard> i think it is ok
<reinhard> because if you change the 0.7 liter to
<neilt> i wonder how they will get deleted
<reinhard> 1 big_bottle = 0.7 liter
<reinhard> then the other stays
<neilt> if you remove a conversion
<reinhard> 1 bottle = 0.5 liter
<reinhard> probably you have to remove all list entries
<reinhard> before you remove the "list holder"
<jamest_> bbl
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<neilt> ok, thanks
<reinhard> btw just for the record
<reinhard> i didn't invent this system and this syntax
<reinhard> and i neither want to say it's good nor that it's bad
<neilt> reinhard: that might have worked last year
<neilt> but not now
<neilt> :)
<reinhard> i just want to explain what i found out from the existing code
<neilt> :)
<reinhard> :)
<neilt> reinhard: have a good nap :)
<reinhard> thanks :)
Action: reinhard feels how his head falls on the keyboard
<reinhard> nhag hjhfdsjkgavb
<reinhard> ;)
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> nite all
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<Me2000> bye
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Action: jamest is away: I'm busy
Action: jamest is back (gone 00:00:02)
<dneighbo> wow you left for a long time
<jamest> I'm fast
<dneighbo> thats what lindsay said ;)
Action: dneighbo went to local tradeshow
<dneighbo> that was windows based and ran a linux booth today
<dneighbo> it was an interesting experience
<neilt> jamest: i no longer get to admin web site?
<dneighbo> lots of interest and lots of people tired of M$
<jamest> sure you do
<dneighbo> was funny to see what was important to thime
<dneighbo> them
<jamest> neilt: you should be able to
<neilt> jamest: i dont get the admin menu on the side anymore
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuentperise.org/admin.php
<dneighbo> then log in
<dneighbo> mine sometimes goes away until i do that
<jamest> better yet
<neilt> specified server not found
<jamest> i think that
<jamest> https://www.gnuentperise.org/admin.php
<jamest> will work too
<jamest> cache
<dneighbo> you have https: working now?
<jamest> for about a month or so I think
<dneighbo> where did we get an ssl cert?
<neilt> ok it worked thanks
<jamest> i created a temp one
<neilt> i get a message "the identity certificant is invalid"
<jamest> sigh
<neilt> only when i try to use https :(
<neilt> dneighbo: you have a resume someplace
<neilt> online
<neilt> jamest: how come http://www.gnuenterprise.org/sections.php only shows 1 section with nothing in it?
<dneighbo> some place
<jamest> neilt: volume
Action: ra3vat needs help and advice with broken hardware
<jamest> neilt: https works fine w/ konqueror
<jamest> and there are 3 sections displayed 
<jamest> only thing is they only show graphics not text (!@# !@#%$! nuke :)
<jamest> and we don't have graphics
<jamest> ra3vat: ok
<ra3vat> have notebook Fujitsu Lifebook 535Tx which seems dead
<ra3vat> which is very important to repair
<ra3vat> also fount item on ebay
<ra3vat> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1258618124
<ra3vat> is is fronm Kansas City :)
<ra3vat> I'm not familiar with all that terms on ebays and may be another way to find parts for that ald notebook to rapair
<jamest> what is wrong w/ notebook and what do you need it fixed for (why the urgency?)
<ra3vat> can anyone give an advice how to find say motherboard for this or buy used one and reassemble one from two 
<jamest> i have no idea on where to get used laptop parts cheap
<ra3vat> I have an occation that someone can bring it easily to russia in about 2 weeks
<ra3vat> and that position on ebay, can you comment?
<jamest> again though are you fixing it because you need a working laptop
<jamest> or because you need something off the hard drive (no backups )
<ra3vat> its right the same model I have
<ra3vat> yeah, I need working one
<jamest> ok
<jamest> and what terms on ebay don't you understand?
<ra3vat> currently $5.00? 5days, 3hours How to make a deal and buy it?
<jamest> this is like an auction
<jamest> you bid higher than the current price of $5
<jamest> someone else can then bid higher than you
<jamest> people can keep bidding more money the the next 5 days and 3 hours 
<jamest> at the end of that time the person with the highest bid gets the laptop 
<jamest> for the amount they bid
<ra3vat> can I contact with someone to get additional info about the item?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> on the page you gave
<jamest> in the Seller section
<jamest> it gives their email as well as a link "ask seller a question"
<ra3vat> ok, had someone here an experience to buy or sell something through such a service like ebay?
<jamest> i have not
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<jamest> several of my friends and co-workers have
<ra3vat> jamest: thanks
<jamest> sorrry I can't be of more help
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<jamest> welcome back
<ra3vat> what is the real price for notebook like this? that let me to play with gnue along in a field 
<jcater> thanks
<ra3vat> here it is much more expensive I think
<jamest> ra3vat: i dont know
<ra3vat> jamest: ok, thanks
<dneighbo> has anyone looked at jboss in detail?
<dneighbo> never mind i even said that
<jamest> sure thing java-boy
<jamest> :)
<ra3vat> dneighbo: someone here was unable to finds docs for it
<neilt> jamest: do the web stats, include individual web pages at (for example) ~neilt
<jamest> i thought there was a link under the individual breakdowns that listed all urls
<jamest> lemme look
<jamest> doesn't look like it's activated on ash
<jamest> just a sec
<jamest> hmmm
<neilt> hey i am number 6 in top 10 entry pages
<jamest> it's shut off on ash
<neilt>    /neilt/sc.html
<jamest> i'll need to turn it back on
<dneighbo> well i plan on doing 'datamining' of our logs regularly
<neilt> and 7 8 and 9
<neilt> cool
<dneighbo> which means we need to get your docs in our doc section :)
<dneighbo> we need to get a doc section :)
<dneighbo> that autobuilds
Action: dneighbo will do sometime soon... if he doesnt get beat to it
<neilt> 21492 pages not found, that is not good
<neilt> for this month so far
<neilt> out of 165000 ok's
<neilt> thats 13% could not find the right page
<neilt> i think we have a problem, Houston
<jcater> neilt: you are looking at it backwards... that means 87% could have found what they were looking for :)
<jcater> j/k, btw
<neilt> hehe
<neilt> actually it means that there are internal reference problems in the pages
<neilt> graphics not found etc
<neilt> dneighbo: there is stuff on my page that is not in cvs
<neilt> do you want me to add it all to cvs
<dneighbo> neilt well time to get it in cvs :)
<neilt> its not my stuff, but am happy to put it in
<neilt> this the security stuff from Stan
<neilt> and math stuff from Ariel
<neilt> etc
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> well lets hold off for a bit on cvs'ing it
Action: dneighbo needs to check copyright (i think both are squared away)
<neilt> yes they are
<neilt> or i would not have put it on the site
<dneighbo> and we need to relook at doc structure in cvs and see if its what we really want
<neilt> its not
<neilt> but i would rather be doing code now
<neilt> and not restructuring cvs
<neilt> if i had spare time
<dneighbo> ok i agree
<dneighbo> check in where you think they fit
<dneighbo> we have to fix other things so suppsoe few more docs wouldnt matter :)
<neilt> i would put in proposals folder in dockboook folder
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<dneighbo> bey bye
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<neilt> later all
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<jamest> l8r
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<dyfet> james?
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<jcater> has anyone heard any complaints about bigbrother?
<ajmitch> how can we complain? the thought police will arrest us if we do!
<jcater> lol
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<derek> what do you mean?
<derek> bigbrother: got complaints a while back
<derek> about flooding the snot out of OPN logs
<derek> but i think jamest fixed that
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<jamest> jcater fixed it
<jamest> not me
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