media sucks derek: i have a question for you and yes i got your emails do you guys think that the issue of promoting project credit through the project name is so important that we really need the term "GNU/Linux" to denote all OS distributions that use gnu and linux? the FSF (afaik, at least RMS and Brad Kuhn) basically claims that there are serious problems arising from the use of the word "linux" to name systems that are based on linux, rather than calling it "gnu/linux" like that LWCE doesn't acknowledge the FSF as an authoritative volunteer party, and wont give em price breaks on stuff coz LWCE doesn't know who they are, because of things such as saying "linux" instaed of "gnu/linux" i would assume that sounds rather odd unless i get some sort of proof plus i have a really big problem with how the FSF champions the term "gnu/linux" anyway. i think that the FSF in general inherits RMS's issues with relentless hyperfocus i find them very civil and gentlemanly and polite, and i have no problem with stubbornness, and not with obstinance er, rather, i do have a problem with obstinance :) you looking for opinion here? yessir ok sorry,i didn't specify that :) on the gnu\linux thing yeah that's a start i dont think it should be tirade and get in peoples face and get mad and stomp like a child when people dont use the term ESPECIALLY IN SPEECH however, for tradeshows and marketing materials etc i do understand the problem do you think that FSF reps do that? dtm: some do oh boy i hesitate to ask for names, but i would like to better understand i dont suppose it's possible to hurt anybody's feelings by pointing them out to a concerned party such as myself ;) the issue is that if you GNU\Linux is not used GNU is forgotten and this has practical ramifications and believe me, i do understand the problem but that is absolutely not the solution you stated in an email (if you dont mind me referencing it) that you surely would hope that someone like linux world would accomodate FSF since FSF is who 'started it all' but because GNU is dropped in showing 'linux' to the public i believe that the term "gnu/linux" does more harm than good and that "linux" or "linux-based system" or "free software system" are neutral. i actually submit that there _is_ no possible way to correctly address every contributor in a _name_. many people dont even know who they are or what they contributed yes that's aboslutely true and _that_ is the problem, but there's gotta be a better solution dtm: i thinking 'obsessing' on the name is not because really they want GNU in the name they just want the controversy to make people aware i.e. if all the companies pushing linux called it linux but in marketing material etc called it free software instead of open source or gave some credit to FSF or GNU i dont think RMS would care what they called it if that makes sense as the obsession didnt exist yes -- they want controversy -- selfishly substituting one passive problem for an active one until it was evident that people were NOT associating the work of GNU with Linux obstinate people choose selfishness when they think they dont know any better. RMS rightfully is upset there however, my opinion is that if they would have championed doing things differently in the beginning yes before it got out of hand they wouldnt be dancing around the issue now absolutely i recently fought with RMS on this pretty heavily in way of tradeshow they have a point but they're civilly cranky and obstinate about it they wont do a non linux tradeshow oh my. as they dont want ot spend the money you are kidding me (he says rhetorically) and they think they wont reach the people here is rms' opinion how do you interact with RMS? via email? we cant reach people that dont know about our community yet open source is much better at this i flipped a lid i said wait hmm so you are saying let open source introduce them to linux and open then a year later yep you can scream at them cause they dont know anything about freedom and dont understand GNU you're right, derek, that's what they did his answer in a nut shell they passively allowed the OSS marketing to get going yip his answer was we cant compete because we dont have the resources always the response. let me get the mail no resources as it had me hot see, derek, there's a reason why they may have insufficient resources yes i generally talk to him and brad via email i can send you the emails i sent to Tim Ney about product development though i have called brad at the office on occasion generally the concept of producing a real marketable product that isn't ass and i have met on many occassions with tim ney and that isn't obsolete robert chassell and leslie proctor tim and leslie are gone now to my knowledge tim's my buddy from two prior lwce shows, and my friend's dad is old hippie buddies with tim there is ome story there but i dont know it if bob was coming to SF i owuld get filled in so he's the only FSFian i've met, other than having dinner with and some email with RMS but i'm not sure i consider that acquaintance but i dont have that kind of relationship with brad coz RMS is so ...... hmmm ... opaque :) well see derek, there's a limit to our responses to them -- this is a personality issue you know? it's no good for us in turn to get upset at them it's a big cycle nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) left irc: Read error to nickr[sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net]: Connection reset by peer since i see you're already an "expert" on the issue :) i'll tell you my main point -- i think the FSF is burned out, long ago Let me explain. "Open Source" is going after the people that dont know about us at all. Then we are coming up and trying to "re-educate" these people that its not "open source" its "free software" and GNU is the reason it exists. This is true, but other factors override this one. We lack the means to effectively compete with them trying to reach people before they do. That is because they have the advantage of so many companies and newspaper articles using their term and their nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) joined #gnuenterprise. values, even when talking about us. What we could do with a booth at Comdex would be a drop in the bucket by comparison with all that. Meanwhile, most people who pass by our booth at Comdex would not be interested in our work under any name. At a show about "Linux" or "open source" at least all the people have some interest in the GNU system, even though they may not be aware it is the GNU system. my comment is the indented one RMS starts at this is true absolutely every organization of any kind that i've met, which gets obstinate like this -- whether it's an individual, a family, a company, a .org, etc -- is coz they started something long ago on principle, did hard core work, and was both eclipsed outside of their comfort and talent zones _and_ burned out along the way know what i mean ? i disagree about fsf being burned up ok i see the movement as a fragile ecosystem in whole that was a vague guess, so you'd know better how can i explain lets get philospohical for a moment let's do :) can good exist w/o evil? can heaven exsist w/o hell? one might say 'no' not as long as free choice exists if you think of gates and the monopolies we see forming as one extreme and RMS and staunch free software ideals as the other a non-omnipotent being must know darkness in order to know the value of the light both are relevant but if you ask most FSF they share most of RMS' ideals but are a little less obstinate that doesnt mean that RMS or the FSF is obsolete yes that's how i've found them except Tim Ney i talked with Tim for a bit and he seems quite normal he's a bit more passive though yes he is not a software guy and he is no longer with FSF i much liked him though you would like bob as well he's not?! why not? there is a story i do not know it though sheeesh will have to have dinner with bob to find out was it primarily his decision? i dont know well i'd like to hang out with all you guys, so please keep me in the loop during lwce i have heard rumors BUT they are conflicting darn so i dont put any value in them something happened though im positive of that :/ yeah well anyhow i.e. bad breakup there's a collective personality of varying degrees of obstinance just dont know if it was mutual or one party or the other yep brad is very much in the ilk of RMS though a little more grounded in reality bob is VERY grounded but has the strong belief system of free software he is good prototypical for FSF i can tell -- in one of these recent lwce-related emails, he sent me an obviously prefabbed huge-ass several paragraph rambling about why i should use "gnu/linux" he understands business wears a suit i have the word "linux" in my email signature and therefore he quoted it and sent me that. that's borderline offensive. and while is known to use gnu linux etc he doesnt tell people use this or i wont talk to you i have "linux" in my signature because IT'S A SIGNATURE it has to be short, _and_ i literally know linux he explains, "really its GNU\Linux... and explains the importance of recoginzing the contribution of GNU project" so he is more 'diplomatic' Action: derek really likes bob he was one of original founders of gnu with rms was first 'treasurer' of gnu and still is on board i believe he knows rms well :) and when talking to bob for extended times derek: i'm just curious -- i submit to you the idea that there is _no_ such thing as "gnu/linux". that is because gnu and linux were each created not in their own right, but using both cultural/technological influences _and_ direct code from other projects like BSD. what do you think? you gain some insight to rms dtm: i disagree ok basically that would be saying you dont believe in derivate works being something different Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet? derek: no that's not it thus you would have to call vanilla ice's : ice ice baby, the same thing as david bowies : under pressure derek: i'm saying it literally includes work from other projects -- yet _they_ say that it's all theirs. brad literally told me that GNU is the principal contributor to any system including GNU. as the former is simply a cutural/technological influenced by product dtm: my example still applies in case of gnu they didnt 'include' they copied where there is a distinct difference i.e. every automobile has wheels some have goodyears some firestone etc the tires are not the same i.e. GNUs not unix but at various points, the system that the FSF calls "gnu/linux" litearlly includes code that's not from gnu or linux. they didnt take bsd code and put a new license on it dtm: are you sure i think all code is new code all gnu code that is furthermore, what if Torvalds said that he doesn't want to be associated with GNU, and similarly obstinantly argued that he doesn't want people to use the word "GNU" in conjunction like that Linus wouldn't do that coz he's not a jerk. i mean, not in that way :) um he has done that in a sense no, not like them we're talking about shades of gray -- not black and white as i stated this name thing is bent frustration for poor preparation earlier in life :) i'm saying that FSF is on one extreme edge, and others are in the middle or somewhere lese yes i agree with that yes exactly bent frustration and they're taking it out on the world at large including individuals in particular like me and my poor signature :} which is rather pathetic yes, i know misguided to put it kindly all i can say is they mean well i know they do, and they've _done_ well but they need more adult social skills this is literally a childish thing agreed part of the problem in my humble opinion is that people fight rms instead of spread his message civilly we're not even talking about a squabble -- we're talking about hyperfocus which is frequently highly offensive i.e. everyone in FSF camp expects RMS to do all the evangelism yes, the problems abound in all directions then get cranky when he is less than personable exactly, which is why i suggested potentially burnout and DEFINATELY , rms is out of his element those that get mad enough move to another camp (open source) there's a reason why i dont write gnue's engineering direction instead of speaking on behalf of free software and doing it properly yes exactly example rms is not happy with me right now im certain on a few accounts so this is a constant dysfunctional cycle which needs to be fully rebooted poor derek ;) because i refuse to be obstinate to certain parties yeah, that's wacked as i would rather lead them by example to change rather htan by brute force it's almost like a gang leader telling you to shoot someone if you're down with em, or else they'll put your in the hospital ;) now i could get hrut feelings and call rms a jerk yeah run to os camp with tail between my legs yep yeah i dont advise that ;) but that is silly as when it boils down to it, i still believe the same thing he does just we dont see eye to eye on best way to spread that word to others problem with OSI is that they thought different way to spread word, but in thier vision they lost the beliefs part of RMS' problem is that he is insecure in such things (rightfully so) the OSI people really hurt free software in my opinion, and he is scared by that yep so when someone says wait we need to lax up on a, b and c but still be hardline on our message he gets nervous that the 'message is being muddied' OSS believes in mutual self interest, and FSF believes in mutual intrinsic interest im religious (believe it or not) yep me too we have same issues in church yeah some people say attack every persons sin and tell them they are going to hell, and scare them into a believer i go to a very contemporary church which issues messages based on entertaining but serious performances and presentations others believe live by example show them person of jesus and educate them why thier sin is harmful they appeal to virtually everyone at the heart both camps have same 'belief, moral, ethic' systme they just differ on way the message is 'carried' i see FSF as part that attacks every inequity in freedom (sin) and tries to beat a person into thier moral system yeah they dont have enough gradience and empathy i see my view as educate people on why not paying attention to freedom (sin) is harming them (business, personally) and try to show them examples of how freedom is helping others which is a common theme among "geeks" -- it's related to autism derek: that's becuase you have more neurotransmitters than RMS ;) jk fwiw: rms is pretty much as close to autistic as you can get oh absolutely i know this and still be functional definately he's like the Stephen HAwking of software ;) i try to explain this to people yep i say remember rainman and how he HAD to watch jeopardy yep or he went friggin nuts now put that analogy to RMS and GNU\Linux term rms goes into "hot water burn baby" mode over names, while gcc never got updated :) in some ways his obstinance cant be 'helped' defniately compassion toward rms is required people like him are so necessary and hearing linux 'triggers' a response yes which is hyperstimulating to him i would go as far as saying an 'unvoluntary response' coupled with the fact that so much of his empathy is synthesized partially involuntary -- even if he doesn't mean to do it, he doesn't quite mean not to do it right one of my agenda items for SF is to meet with bradley and resolve some 'issues' see, i understand how to have empathy for someone who doesn't have enough. and that's why i have had involved email conversations with rms that others would consider completely impossible. years ago he even asked me to educate him and help him find a better way regarding the "gnu/linux' issue yip derek: i would definately like to be there on that type of thing if you dont mind rms is rather understanding WHEN he gets comfy with you he is a rather guarded individual and rightfully so i am very catalytic, and can help others find what empathy they do have, to use as fuel for synthesizing more :) as people regularly misquote and misinterpret him yes htey do :/ plus the sheer volumes of mail he gets is insane oh i bet most of them idiotic and he's extremely patient and diligent with responding i've wasted his time a few times and felt very bad :) its rather funny as first time i emailed RMS i was ranting about something poor guy with RSI never expected a reply and you soon learned otherwise ;) he emailed me back and i was estatic felt so special yep :) and dialog carried on then started maintaining gnue with jamest and was talking to him daily for a few months now to this day i get emails from him asking me to do things which is just crazy he has sharp memory i had made some off comments on visual basic supprot in office documents in like august and in january he quoted that earlier mail and said he had been thinking and decided he concurred did i know anything told him gnome basic and kbasic existed he asked me to do a report on them so when in new york talked to michael meeks on gnome basic then exchanged mail with kde lead on kbasic and compiled a report for him it was interesting experience as michael is like us adores free software foundation but cant stand some of the weird things :) i about died when he said "tell rms i will do what ever he wants for gnome basic, EXCEPT put a damn stale outdated web page on gnu.org for it" i about fell out of my chair hehheeh so will you be at lwe all the days? i think i will arrive mid day monday and jamest gets in at like noon i will pick him up at hotel i think hm perhaps .. perhaps not. and then we will head up to convention center to look into setting up definately all day monday jason gets in at like 7pm we will pick him up and do dinner i suppose other than that we dont have external plans we are ad-hoc :) we have several people scheduled to meet with but not at definitive times where are you at ? we are down in south sanfrancisco by the sf airport as it was a LOT cheaper adn we are broke :) the ostel guys are in sanjose, (mountain view) and sure we might head down there i'm in Pleasanton i used to work in mountain view yeah they're my good buddies ah you are accross the bay then i've spent many a night on the Bodo couch yes up north northeast in the enemies camp :) but i can be.... anywhere. (peoplesoft) oh, which enemy? :) oh them , YES you're quite adept, sir Action: derek checks to make sure that aint a peoplesoft ip block ;) darned spies nono however my landlord does work there and my mom applied there well im hoping we get a hack session at the bodo abode but that's the extent of it! oh? to get gnue and gnucomm/bayonne firing together we dont ahve the hardware or the expertise on comm stuff oh ok he doesnt have the db / app expertise well OST does. OST == da bomb so a few nights together hopefully will fix that :) they're supergeniuses and they tend to know exactly what they're doing technically :) the fact that they've sustained a business is just extremely awesome they're unusually good, i tell ya cool i feel same way about gnue team :) hey derek, i could use your advice on my own consulting bidness http://mmmgood.net/dbc derek: yeah it sounds like it only wish they could do it first time derek: except where's the business :) er full yep no business as they are all too valuable to current employers so employers make it too lucrative to leave ;) h0h0 that's hilarious! so by secretly developing gnue on the side, (and of course by being da bomb to begin with), they improve their current standing what kind of feedback you looking for on the consulting business? dtm: something like that those docs are a totally rough draft well of course you should list that you are a gnue specialist :) and say its your flagship product yeah i'd do that um yeah thats the ticket :) i'll just do that. Action: derek needs to find caffiene bb in 2 min ok ok back geez you're already infused? Action: derek needs to get fridge in office that 15 ft walk to kitchen is excruciating i've got my peanut butter m&ms and i'm not afraid to use the Safeway(tm) brand Dr. Skipper(tm)! dtm: seeing how i drink straight from 2 liter (as fuel consumption sadly IS that high) its not like i have mess with glasses or ice or anything :) hoooo-lee cow. well i drink from the can i dont know which is worse ok so i'll take absolutely any input on my docs that i drink multi two liters a day layout, wording, intuitiveness, etc or that i can down half a two liter of mtn dew and go to bed 30 minutes later o boy i did that when i was 18yrs old that's nutty d00d it is its REALLY bad ive been over stressed :/ and burning candles on ALL ends say it aint so, Big D and my consumption has tripled i was weened of all caffiene for a while well my candles literally are these giant thick ones, like 6" diameter, sitting in pie tins, and they STILL melt over the edge over the tv onto the carpet!!!! then started back on caffiene but was moderate usage and didnt miss if not having it yeah now i am like 'demon boy' if i dont get infusion at least hourly :( i really should be doing consulting work but thats what stresses me so avoiding it :) eh? well mostly open source. shoudl be mostly free software. ;) oh sheesh that can't be :) all open source software is protected under a zero cost ($0) distribution license is shoudl be all free software is protected under a zero cost ($0) distribution license is ;) you get the idea and damn it its GNU\Linux not Linux uhhh. when you gonna learn idiot do you bite your thumb at me, sir? and yes im being a smart ass Action: dtm pulls out a white glove i challenge you to a duel at the Big F yes, my F is bigger than your F. "F" as in "*F*ree", not merely "Free" it's hilarious having me talk with some of those "gimp is crap compared to photoshop -- try doing REAL WORK, YOU HIPPIE" foolz in #macdev ;> they educate me all about the Real World(tm), you see well, some do they at least tolerate that good ol' BSD license thats when you tell them that mac is crap compared to ... hahahaha yeah i'll tell em that, and point to the fact that i oughtta know since every one of my active systems is a mac :) of course you tell them this just to see them blow a gasket they're actually quite civil and of course various peoples' personalities exist on various shades of the gradient scale the really vocal ones though.. they are firmly planted in their disposition um jobs is as bad as rms and they are authoritative in their space when it comes to people skills and tantrums :) hmmmm though he does understand hygiene better well , relative to most people yeah but jobs still outclasses rms in social graces and sheer charisma um jobs has been a cult leader recruiting people who didn't even know it i agree that he is better at social graces but on charisma and then subconsciously extracting the atomic talent out of their spinal fluids rms is rather charismatic in his writing and speaking ok that's defaintely true good point rms has the writing and jobs has the workgroups one place rms is ahead in that area is foreign countries right he is simply adored out side the states compared to gates or jobs he's very culturally aware yeah i think this is cause he is mostly in a written medium so he can easily be translated and words are easy to get to ends of the earth in written mediums getting 'telecasts' to south africa or brazil etc is much more difficult than ascii and email yes right they dont do the streaming quicktime tv as much there ;) rofl yeah i suppose they arent picking up cspan on thier dishes either ;) probly not a whole lot. well i got a perspective shock it wsa columbia or somewhere tim had come back from world issues conference and had dinner with him he was telling me he was in a village hmm talking about software and that the village had power shortage they only had power for 3 hours a day so had to do all computing in that 3 hours to handle the 'village/city' issues i was like ouch talk about programmer deadlines half to be done in an hour or you are screwed :) wow well you could always write it out on papertape submit it as a batch during "on" time just like at MIT on the TECO dewd the TMRC still exists isn't that elite? so derek hast thou any input on my page? no lubbins from the derekorama? i can't live without your input, derek Action: dtm goes to look up the exaggerated reliance on other people in his PTSD book sorry was working um input im horrid at marketing as evidenced by the link i sent you of own page :) heh which page is this? did you send me a url that i forgot to look up? :/ you didnt get my msgs? what irc client you using http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/08/06/1054257 that's the interview with bkuhn not completed yet no answer from bkuhn interesting questoins such as regarding the FSF's (rms's) image :) all i want to know is how come the GPL is a tool of communism? i think those guys in the 10-10-220 commercials were dropped on their heads MicahY (micah@c1306879-a.salem1.or.home.com) left irc: [x]chat :) i am off to bed be back in a few hours Nick change: derek -> dnZzz ok later sir reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d9.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. chillywilly (danielb@d9.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout for chillywilly[d9.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net] dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: EOF from client dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: ajmitch -> ajzzzz Nick change: dnZzz -> derek ajzzzz (ajmitch@p27-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) got netsplit. nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) got netsplit. ajzzzz (ajmitch@p27-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. well look what the cat dragged in hi derek: that url you sent me was interesting :) um which one what was it about i should go to work i suppose but thats no fun Nick change: derek -> dnWork jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. morning all well, morning me jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Ping timeout for jcater[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net] jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. morning you howdy how goes school? dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater you get my messages the other dya? on marketing material? no basically wondered if you looked at gnue marketing materials or not and if were going to try to resolve and print new or whether just use what we have (ie what i sent you) jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Read error to jcater[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net]: Connection reset by peer jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: jcater -> jcLunch chillywilly (danielb@d136.as12.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ajzzzz (ajmitch@p27-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajzzzz[p27-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz] ajzzzz (ajmitch@p58-max5.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater nmmmmmm, cream soda where? right here A&W cream soda Action: chillywilly plays metal militia on his guitar I ned to figureout how to hook up and record with my cmoputer ;) anyone know anything about MIDI? why use MIDI? run your guitar through a sound board adn pipe out in stereo and use gstreamer heck if you have an amp it quite possibly has stereo outs on it go to radio shack and for 15 bucks I have a nice fender amp and an effects processor get build a 1/4in to 1/8in adapter and pipe to your soundcard and use gstreamer with valves in it tubes rule man yeah I thought of that i pull 3 guitars, keyboard, drum, congo, and 5 singers into my laptop weekly :) :) you guys have a nice contemporary service eh? prettty much our worship leader is professional studio musician and his band cool is comprise of a few guy sthat have heavy metal christian band so on weekends and at outreaches neat they play hard rock jade: who is never hear anymore I know a lot of metallica songs I used to know how to play little wing has one of the best pop-punk christian bands in the state Action: chillywilly thinks hard] cleared by customs what does jade play? instrument-wise 6 string guitar he is lead singer as well thier stuff sounds a lot like green day or blink 182 I like blink ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.214) joined #gnuenterprise. i dont konw if thier group is together or not anymore ÒÛ ÆÄÄ hi all what was that? russian keyboard? yeah, soory :) kewl hiya ra3vat hi chillywilly so dnbasically I can pipe stero out into my soudn card and record using gstreamer right? s/dn/dneighbo oy, 24 hour time is crazytalk Action: chillywilly is building sid boot floppies Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. hey chuckles hi ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.214) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.214] chillywilly yip few cavaets that need addressing :) i talked to guy from gstreamer on but it will work just no 'features' that are handy i think tee's are implemented now so you could go from sound card sink to encoding to disk and tee it off tee? to icecast thread so you write to disk at same time you stream to internet the tee is a -| ok likea fork in the road or something? it can have 2 sinks? |--> internet(icecast) input (sound card ) --> Encoding --| |--> harddisk this was still a 'todo' item but they were getting ready to test it i have great interest in it but not until we get DSL reconnected yeah did you paste that? yip sad thing does gstreamer even have aweb site? if it were not for you i wouldnt know about htem and aj told me where to get cvs you know omega wrote gstreamer for the same thing you're using it for to record church concerts ;) i have never seen docs or website :) gstreamer.net yeah we have exchanged some tips / stories hosted by sourceforge about getting gstreamer to work with sound boards he has educated me on it quite a bit actually gatreamer is gonna be used in G3 cell hpones that have embedded Linux the lpace that he works for does embedded systems place riverun technologies or something like that s/G3/3G/ whatever Action: chillywilly notices the boot floppies are *still* building gawd this P166 sucks I hope this is the last floppy set it is building reiserfs now Action: chillywilly hasn't che4cked email in days what's the date? nevermind jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Ping timeout for jcater[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net] jaaguilarb (antonio@200.64.84.233) joined #gnuenterprise. hello all hi jaaguilarb can i answer any gnue questions for you? dónde usted está situado en Méjico? yes and i grateful to you (sorry for me elemental english). estoy norte justo de Méjico en el Arizona ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.176) joined #gnuenterprise. yes. In Mexico City (D.F.) well let me know what questions i can answer and i will try for many months ago i follow the gnue project ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.176) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.176] and i hope participate soy justo una gringo gorda que hable muy poco español great we could use the help :) lol i hve many questions about gnue. ask and i will try to answer :) kewl I know how to make boot floppies ad a base tar ball from sid derek: will there be any releases before LWE? rock chillywilly if you get REALLY bored there is a script that will create like a under 1mb install of debian and flash to cdrom 1) Any proposal for internationalization? to make bootable business cards 1) yes, in a round about way ra33vat who just left is russian and has been actively adding support for cyrillic characters hmm.. I have some scripts that create a boot CDROM he is putting together formation to make fully internalizioned as are reinhard (austria) adn neilt(us) icluding currency ohhh. ok. in fact if you read log form two days ago its mostly bantering about which is best way to handle multi currency in general ledger Mr_You : yeah this script was cool as you build your buiz card stuff and keep in a under 50mb containment and the script will create a booter etc looked promising today i download the log files dneighbo whatacript? er, what script derek: any releases before LWE? http://www.lnx-bbc.org/ Mr_You dont know i did desperately want one before then but its looking grim :( everyone is swamped 2) in the location samples the login dialog ask me for an user-pass. What is the combination? that bbc gives me another idea Action: Mr_You giggles. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.222) joined #gnuenterprise. what database are you using? jaaguilarb it should be your mysql or postgres username and password I use postgresql database if you are in the location sample try a valid postgres user name and password Mr_You what is the idea? reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. my user is for example gnue but i create this without pass let me create a proof of concept first ;-) so i haven't pass for this user. just an idea for my biz jaaguilarb then leave password blank :) adn just use user gnue Mr_You ah call it a functional demo on a bbc but bbc also has practical usage imagine turning on a network computer with a bbc ToyMan (stuq@c5300-2-ip92.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. what's bbc? bootable business card aaah what is the process whose function is this validation? what are you refering to jaaguilarb? ohhh. I ask to dneighbo about the login dialog and the user-pass related. jaaguilarb it is authenticating against the database currently its a pass/fail item there are exentions now to write your own authentication handling so you wouldnt have to create a user for ever user in your database but they are in cvs only and hightly expiremental i hope that makes sense? i dowload 1 week ago the last version from cvs. I can work with this image? yeah you can work with it but it will not have the authentication extensions you will be required to create a user in postgres for every user wishing to access the data ok. I'm interested in the HR, forms, designer. How i can start in they? well forms and designer install them (sounds like you have) and start to use them a little bit at that point you will start finding thigns that need fixing :) also when jamest and jcater return they can give you todo lists i have installed all modules now. how commit the changes? chillywilly (danielb@d136.as12.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: [BX] Silly wabbit, BitchX is for kids! some train wrecked into a tanker and the tanker blew up hmm.. flat bed not tanker ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.222) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.222] jaaguilarb: send a patch to jamest or jcater ok. About forms or designer any direction to follow? just look at what is there now if you find something you don't like propose a change to jamest when he says it's ok then just do it and send patch if you find nothing you don't like just ask jamest he will gladly put you to work :) a very urgent thing would be make forms work together with geas but that's not an easy job because you have to understand forms _and_ geas to do it and about geas who is the correct person? Moreover docs? hehe i am the correct person and let me warn you the docs are in the geas/doc directory and parts of them are outdated so if in doubt about something just ask well to give you the complete information you can ask questions about geas to me or to neilt i want translate this doc to spanish. I?m sure this is a good exercise. it sure would be but like i said some parts of the docs are outdated and we want to redo the docs within the next 2 months or so i would not like that you waste time on translating things that are not valid anymore well of course this only is true for geas i think the forms docs are ok In this sense, some way worked to join geas and forms? yes but forms can not yet make use of all features of geas most important forms can not deal with geas references like in geas you can define customer *cust; which means that "cust" is like a pointer to a specific customer record this could be for example in an invoice when using geas, we don't store the customer number in the invoice but rather a "pointer" to the customer "object" (record) the "pointer" is in reality a 32 char unique key which the user does not see at all you understand basically what i mean? This key is an memory pointer or really an key database pointer? ToyMan (stuq@c5300-2-ip92.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: [x]chat when using geas every table has an "automatic" field named "objectid" this field is maintained by geas and the "pointer" is the objectid of the record it points to the difference is that the objectid never changes and is 100% guaranteed to be unique (it's from the uuid library) ok. is a class pointer along the connection. Or not? sorry did not understand this question Ohh. The objectid referenced is, for ejample, the internal pointer from tables in postgresql? no Upssss let me give you an example ok table customer: ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.222) joined #gnuenterprise. aha just a second ok here it is: table customer: objectid cust_no name --------------------------------------------------- 1234567890 4711 Derek Neighbors 2222222222 4712 James T. Kirk table invoice: objectid invoice_no cust amount ------------------------------------------------------- 5555555555 1000 1234567890 1000.00 7236246324 1001 2222222222 500.00 7231233777 1002 1234567890 800.00 --- those are the database tables the uses does never see the values in the column "objectid" in reality they are not 10 char but 32 char and the user should not see the values in the column "cust" he should see the cust_no and the name instead ok. Postgres for example maintains a column whose name is objectid. This column internally is a pointer used by the database manager. you are talking about the oid right? reinhard: how are cust_no, invoice_no would be assigned? manually? additional uuidgen? we had a discussion if we should use it or not ra3vat: they are assigned by the application it's actually up to the application how this is handeled ok. I talk about the oid. But you are talking about other thing. Or no? sure it would be not good to let the user change the invoice number once the invoice is printed but for example i know systems where an invoice gets the number only when printed, so when you delete the invoice before printing you don't "loose" that number jaaguilarb: we decided to not use the oid for this because we wanted to be portable to many databases and not every database does have such a thing i agree with this decition. good :) The internal pointer aren't portable solution. reinhard: than we need some .gcd to handle this assignment, right? ra3vat: probably even some .py :) And about geas. This is the layer over orbit? um not exactly geas provides a object oriented interface you can define "business objects" (for example "coustomer" would be a business object class) you can define the "members" (fields) of this object like name, adress etc. you can define methods of this object like assign_next_free_customer_number(); you have to code the methods (currently in c or python, we will prefer python for that) and geas manages the database tables behind these objects and also manages that the correct python code is called when you want to activate a method also geas does things that are completely transparent to the front end like caching of data reinhard: sure, but some initials in .gcd is required for this? am i right? and orbit is the way how geas communicates with the front end (forms) ohh. ra3vat: you have to define in .gcd that there is a filed named cust_no and invoice_no but actually you cant' get any values into there with .gcd afaik only a fixed default value but not a value that is calculated at runtime dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) got netsplit. dnWork (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. dnWork (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. I see. I need study very much. But i hope work in this way. brb dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: [BX] Reserve your copy of BitchX-1.0c17 for the Sony Playstation today! reinhard: but I also need to keep "next_free_customer_number" somewhere? ra3vat: probably or you could use something like "select max(cust_no) from customer;" if such a function exists in sql but more probably you have the next_free_number table say class uh yes of course :) thanks :) thanks. I want work and study strongly. jaaguilarb: we are looking forward to your ideas :) thanks reinhard. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: [x]chat bye all. bye quit jaaguilarb (antonio@200.64.84.233) left irc: Leaving i hope i have not scared him jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard : one word deodorant huh? stop scaring the potential contributors away man :) ah lol well if he doesn't stand my smell how could he ever stand the goats? rofl that was a good one have you seen planet of the apes? at one point the general looks at a human slave trader (ape) adn smells him and turns away saying "you reek of humans" was thinking of doing that when meeting jamest taking big wiff and turning away in disgust saying "you reek of goats" hehe well you have to know i am quite quick on the trigger you just have to give me some time :) Nick change: ajzzzz -> ajmitch well it's far beyond bedtime for me actually nite all reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. ajmitch (ajmitch@p58-max5.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p58-max5.dun.ihug.co.nz] neilt (neilt@user-2ivekd9.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hi neilt hello i wanted to ask you something ok how much have you dealt with consulting on chart of account issues? a little, i lead the accounting implementation for a couple of erp projects i know what makes a good chart of accounts ok have time to discuss some things they insist on daily redoing chart of accounts with little thought here it gets much more intense but would like to bounce some ideas off someone else with experience for sanity ok shoot well in broad sense ajmitch (ajmitch@p10-max4.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. we have several elements FUND AGENCY ORG OBJ ACTIVITY those are the key one all have ablility to 'rollup' at LEAST 3 levels except object it has something called subobject we used to have like 1000 object/subobject combos i flipped and we are down to like 200 now which is still a little heavy in my opinion rollup? but top level ojbects we are like at 50 for revenue and like 60 for expense so thats not too horrid and how agency used to be way of doing fund department and TOTAL bastardization we are fixing that and making fund be fund and agency be department top level should not exceed 400 at the very max max max more likely 250-300 the kicker is they are doing mananging for results or cost based accounting starting next year they plan on using activity for this activity rollups up 3 levels so we have program / activity / service i WONT even go there yet what do you mean by levels but historically people used organization as a kluster fudge sometimes for location sometimes for org hierarchy sometimes for program now that program is separate element we get to clean house on org chart and make it real orgs by rollup the acctstring has one field org but its represented in a nesting so i could have 1000 Director |---- 1001 Manager |----- 1003 Supervisor if i was supervisor i would have 1003 in my org field on my pos if i was mangager i would have 1001 director 1000 but if i ran a report that said show me all $ for pos for director it would include 1000, 1001, 1003 thats what i mean by rollup ok so what was the question ? well we get to renumber the org portion including rollups we used to do numbers for all 3 rollup pieces the first 2 digits being dept number there is issue of 'bucketing' or 'shelving' as well so say in that rollup sample i can charge money to the rollup line one thing they want to do is STOP that and force everything to be at level 3 4900 ADMINISTRATION 4910 STAFFING 4912 FOO might have been an old structure names are fake i could chare money to any of those which cause issues in reporting etc as what it REALLY looks like is this if you were to flatten it first of all, most new G/L systems done have roll-up this way what system are you using? 4900 ADMINISTRATION SUMMARY 4900 ADMINISTRATION DETAIL 4910 STAFFING SUMMARY 4910 STAFFING DETAIL 4912 FOO SUMMARY s/done/don't/ 4912 FOO DETAIL where if you charged an expense it hits at the detail line adn the summary line is all children plus detail which in AMS Advantage (our system) is fine but dealing with other systems we have to create the line items to denote the difference i.e. a detail and a summary as if we only use one line you have no way of knowing what the detail was w/o the the sum so what they are wanting to do is this 4900 ADMINISTRATION SUMMARY 4910 STAFFING SUMMARY 4901 ADMINISTRATION DETAIL 4902 STAFFING DETAIL 4912 FOO DETAIL is so they are in esssence moving the detail to level 3 but if i you look at the allocations 4901 would jump 4910 and go directly to 4900 anyhow even that isnt so much the problem or question just one of the factors they want to go no dept number in the scheme and make two levels be alpha/numeric instead of numeric part of pushing the detail lines to lowest level is me telling them making things alpha will KILL thier data entry clerks so thier theory is level 1 and 2 alpha but make so cant charge money there but they sill have need to do allocations as such so they do magic in rollups example i am a sheriff commander i have the north phoenix out post 4900 NORTH PHOENIX 4910 PATROL 4901 NARCOTICS 4902 TRAFFIC 4912 CRIME i want to allocate and spend money NORMALLY at level 3 BUT say I buy a patrol helicopter its used for naroctics, crime and traffic its 'easier' to put that cost at the 4910 patrol level than it is to break it by percentage across the programs er orgs if that makes sense yes as in budgeting easy to split accross but when i buy helicopter feul i make one purchase then woudl have to make 3 JVs etc and be a total night mare then make a 4913 non-specific patrol or shared patrol costs that is what i have forced them into for programs and they didnt fight the problem on orgs is they are tying every org to a PERSON i.e. someone accountable so in a sense they are doing that just the move that level down as the director of patrol is person tied to patrol there would not be perhaps a sargent or whatever over helicopter and building/rent/costs etc that would come out of director piece BUT i still have issue with this on program as well as organizational unit as they are trying to do metrics based on outputs and $ so say i busted 4000 people on narcotics charges and my meteric was what does it cost per arrest it might be $/arrests if i move rent and a virtually everything but my salaries and non shared costs out to a lumped shared cost that calculation becomes grossly innaccurate the only way to correct that woudl to be in fact do the JV's after the fact activity based costing should be be done at the G/L level OR in the metrix software calculation do such monkeying neilt: so how would you handle this? would you capture teh rent at a shared expense level plastic explosive :) then jv based on allocation figures jv? so g/l had proper spending by activity jv=journal voucher an internal moving of funds on journals after the fact yes i would capture rent like this so if in the example all the units (naroctics etc are in same building) we only write ONE rent check if we have 35 desks but if narcotics is in 90% of building and i pay 2300 for rent and i pay 3500 for rent after the fact i woudl journal 5% to traffic and 5% to crime then i allocate 100/desk to each department ok so if i have 10 narcotics so you would jv the money post mortem then they get 10*100 this is problematic to me not in concept but in our system we are going to be mulitplying # of transactions by up to 10 times i have a rent account in the g/l that has to be zero before the close and currently we ahve no way to 'auto' jv these so all would be manual jv creations in gnue if we do this (which we will have to) we should allow 'auto allocations' yes so when the rent check hits it 'auto' based on what we set up divides the expenditure let me say this again as for number of transactions thats the casaulity of activity based costing activity base costing should NOT be done in the G/L just here they are going into TOO much detail and they dont see the issue yet you have answered a lot in gnue we should also have way to flag that 'shared' account abc is done 1 2 or 3 times a year to refine the cost model and force it to be zero or prevent closing and then it is used until it is done again the other thing i would od do as here people will just throw crap in the 'slush account' and wait until end of year and whine they dont know how to split the money up is i would put water electricity waste etc for this same building in the same account as the rent because it uses the same allocation yes and i would do one journal entry to move all of the costs to the correct department or what you could do is create an 'allocation' template and assign it to multiple accounts that is my fear right now if i make the rent charge (1 transaction) but i have to divide among 10 units now thats 2 transactions per unit one to remove money and one to add money so im up to 21 transactions (on our system) as to my knowledge its not structured really for activity based costing too much welcome to the cost of detail accounting in the g/l its power is in fund accounting you have clients using erp that do this right? do activity based costing? what size are they? not in the g/l adn what kind of hardware are they using? ihave only used abc to refine cost and allocation models not used in the accounting system not that dumb eh will they do sell abc software someone must be using it but i thought it was an alternative costing software not a g/l thing for real abc you need to model your processes and determine costs/process(activity) activity is just a lower level that process so activity wont do any good in the g/l unless you know how the multiplier so if i know $/arrest then i have to know arrests/drug unit arrest/traffic unit etc to allocate costs this is probably not in the G/L this is what abc software does yes we are doing that they have program/activity/service as one element and then have org1/org2/org3 as another element to capture 'cost' but then you dont care about rent then in other system like case management they would know number of arrests then we dont have software yet you just take the cost/arrest and multiple by number of arrests/unit and that is the cost that will feed in from both systems to do the calcs i dont agree it sounds like you are mixing your accounting system with your costing system tehy are that seems compilcated i agree there :) my original thought was do accounting as ACCOUTNING and dont do the activity crap then once a quarter exactly analyze the numbers to do allocations just like you do for rent :) exactly only for acitivities and run a job that takes your g/l performs the allocations and pumps it into abc system then feed exactly your metrics (arrests etc) into that system so you can perform your output metrics(performance measures) so we agree gnue should do it that way :) yes it could be monthly however or annually yes the allocation tables exist if anal you could play with them daily :) if lazy you could play with them never :) same goes with loading the abc system you might never do it do it annually, quarterly, monthly etc personally for me yes i would evaluate the allocation tables quarterly or semi annually and run the numbers to abc system at every close (monthly) but thats just me neilt thanks for discussing this im seeing a light bulb now for another problem im trying to solve cool now if i can talk them into a paradigm shift im set just tell em "it can't be done" :) man we need gnue doing this stuff without buying a new $11,000,000 microsoft server the county has spent literally millions just on 'opninions' and if they went with software it would be even mre luckily they didnt decie had to throw away workign software just instead decided to abuse it :) i have a story there about AMS talk about a joke they have new product InfoAdvantage and OLAP report tool by BizObjects tell county upgrade to DB2 first so county upgrades to db2 from vsam files the upgrade is a JOKE only a few tables are moved to DB2 almost all the files are still vsam so then infoadvantage is purchased for like quarter million bucks and they tell us oh by the way you have to buy mssql server or oracle infoadvantage doesnt work on db2 its like WTF? DB2 is YOUR preferred storage server but your reporting tool doesnt work with it so we are going ot mirror data from an OS390 mainframe for 2billion dollar chart of accounts like nightly to MSSQL server now tell me how that makes sense Action: dneighbo will stop now and be thankful i dont work for that department :) Action: dneighbo knows ms has SOMETHING to do with this equation as biz objects tells us they support dbw2 db2 we ask advantage and they say bizobjects does but we dont Action: dneighbo scratches head and again thinks how greatful he is that its not his problem :) our DB2 admin just laughs about it YEAH four hotels agreed to start coalition on project im doing for consulting yeah yeah yeah dneighbo: you here? yip have you had better luck w/one distro vs another for use on laptops I just got my hands on a laptop for the convention jcater: i like redhat but decided I shound't show up w/win98 for laptop ok as it seemed to have best support at the time BUT debian has gotten much more mature this was about 18 months ago adn also i had a dell laptop and red hat was 'official' distro there ah so i was GUARANTEED all would go well as all hardware had been tested with redhat jade runs debian on a compaq but had sound issues i ran debian on tuxtop and had sound issues but sound isnt too important is it? and the maestro might be supported on debian now nope maestro==most common laptop chip ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.222) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.222] Action: jcater doesn't have sound working on any of his linux setups :) what kind of laptop later al all neilt (neilt@user-2ivekd9.dialup.mindspring.com) left irc: ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.222) joined #gnuenterprise. WinBook XL :) not familar with it i must run you be around later? hopefully ok bbl dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: BitchX: so real, you'll wet yourself! jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: later ajmitch (ajmitch@p10-max4.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p10-max4.dun.ihug.co.nz] ajmitch (ajmitch@p10-max4.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet? Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: dnWork -> derek ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.222) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.222] Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy chillywilly (root@d110.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (root@d110.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: [BX] Man and mouse alike, both end up in pussy