hi ding dong anyone home well dcl and gnue are partially integrated now yeah http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_account.png how are they integrated? um static pieces like departments, accounts, personnel you can manage via gnue instead of via dcl ideally accounts would come from GNUe CRM and Departments from GNUe HR etc but for now i just wanted to make gnue screens for dcl ok workign with mdean on making it be GNUe CRM used for dcl etc you would just port the screens? wonder how php/dcl and python/geas integrate Mr_You: somewhat i didnt look at thier screens only the tables :) yeah Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_departments.png more dcl screens from gnue Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet? i must get sleep im not a borg like jcater Nick change: derek -> dnZzzz be back in a few hours reinhard (rm@62.47.44.55) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d180.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy bdusauso (bdusauso@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. Can I ask a question? sure I'm not familiar with technical english. Are there non-english translations of the documentations? no matter, go ahead and try to do the best you can do :) ummmm I don't think so I heard there is a belgian developper nope Austria Not in the core most others are American we used to have a NZ guy hacking GEAS full time Ok rm-away is form Austria Then, I think I will try to translate it I think that's his country...he'll let me know if I have it wrong I suppose ;) Or give it tot translate to another person all the docs are sgml files in cvs under the docbook directory Thanks no problem I know there are already docs (I'm reading these now) but can you explain me (in a few words) how gnue works ...? ummm basically we have forms (the GUI), reports, and GEAS (our middleware) GEAS uses CORBA and exposes the business objects....forms can be used with GEAS or simple 2-tier GEAS = GNUe Application Server oh and right now we have agraphical forms designer too I'm working for an open-source based solutions company and I want to know if it is possible to create our own GUI based on a Web design (HTML, XML)? To work with Gnue sure as the forms definition file is xml you can write a forms client in anything we d have an ncurses clent not sure if it is updated or not we need a web client hi all. hey wel guess what, dan what? i know a project or two that are web based that's great. Wher? i was discussing such things with derek tongith but his brane is in the proverbial blender until at least after LWCE bdusauso: http://phpgroupware.org, #phpgroupware thanks a lot LWE you mean? chillywilly: you mean LWCE :) Linux World Expo unless you're not going to the conferences :) LWE what's the "C" for? yeah but that's not its name Conferences Action: chillywilly has never been to one yet anyhow and is not going to the SF one either i dont suppose the Conferences would be particularly gripping I am too poor see dan, we could learn how to make Linux work in the enterprise. schooling++ i'll take notes for ya ;) k ok anyway so is phpgroupware and GNUe gonna work together at some point? dan are you in a position to discuss collaboration and synergy between gnue and phpgw? yes aaaaah I suppose sure i dont know who in gnue has satisfactorily examined the current state and future directions of phpgw I know nothing about it sorry I'm on the phpgroupware web site. looks great :-) dtm: at the moment my TODO list grows as I hack too many things :P but if you wanna know something about GEAS I can help you out would be nice to have a PHP client though ok lemme submit a tangent to you fyi do you have access to CORBA through PHP at all? and you can evaluate it fwiw i dont know but probably so so you wanna use GEAS at some point? Or you are also intersted in the accounting, inventory, etc. packages? me ? no dtm, sorry talking about phpgw and gnue intergration er, integration even dtm: hey what can I log into the cvs demo app as? ah well I gotta get back to designing so I can get to methods stuff for GEAS rm-away (rm@62.47.44.55) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. Dmitry Skylarov issued the following statement thanking the activists who have taken up his cause: To everyone who spent their time helping me: During the three weeks I spent in jail I learned that many people were protesting against my arrest. I also learned that Adobe withdrew its support of my arrest after meeting with EFF. But I was not able to see that or to read letters and articles about my case. After being released from jail on August 6, I was really surprised and impressed by the scale of the action and the number of people involved in the protests. I'm not an IT superman. I'm just a programmer, like many others. It was unexpected by me that so many people would support a guy from another country that nobody heard about before. Your support means a lot to me and my family and makes a difference for all. This experience is going to change me in a profound way that I cannot even appreciate fully as yet. Thank you very much. Dmitry Sklyarov chillywilly: i dont know - but i can make you an accoutn on my local installation if you like chillywilly: otherwise i'll find the passwd for the demo k you protest anywhere dtm? Action: chillywilly wen to the 1st chicago protest went about dmitry that is Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:03:39 -0500 From: "Peter A. Peterson II" User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.20i To: sklyarov-chicago@tastytronic.net Subject: [sklyarov-chicago] Dmitry gnment Dmitry was supposed to have his arraignment in Cali today, but it was postponed. The word on the street is that this was done becuase both sides requested a week to discuss a possible plea bargain. pedro wow, that pasted fugy fugly dnZzzz (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for dnZzzz[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net] dnZzzz (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres[4.18.171.42] dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@62.47.44.55) joined #gnuenterprise. wb reinhard hi chillywilly you are in Austria right? Action: chillywilly wasn't sure yep btw, what language do they speak there? German? are you planning a release pf GEAS for the weekend? s/pf/of yes german yes release what will be changed? new gcds? we have already things changed int16 - int64 ooooh that stuff ok improved datatypes for postgres etc yup ok kewl it was actually ariel who pointed it out that will make masta happy form treshna? from that you currently need geas from cvs to process the current version of gcd's so some italian guy oh, ok who looked at supply chain stuff yeah I thought he was one of the NZ ppl dunno why I wonder if any of them will bother coming around again you ever see andru? no I think I saw him once a while back like 2 weeks ago reinhard_ (rm@62.47.44.55) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard_ (rm@62.47.44.55) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. duh hit the wrong button :) is your nick registered? cause you can ghost them off if you get disconnected and you "ghost" is still there your what do you think of phpgroupware? nothing i don't know it :) me neither :P how can i register a nick? /msg nickserv register passrod er /msg nickserv register password wtf is a passrod?!? :P silly typo there well time to shift gears for a moment and start mucking with GNUe cvs because I am sick of this other thing here thanks no prob ok you gusy need to check out phpgw chillywilly: what other thing? chillywilly: no i haven't protested unfortunately you wimp wow i was going to submit a tangent for your evaluation and i passed on. ok anyhow you passed? I just thought you fell off the face of the earth well i sort of did ok anyhow anywho i know that gnue is doing something with corba. am I to understand that gnue is selecting a major infrastructural object and message passing model? er, yeah we use ORBit right now but don't wanna be specfically tied to CORBA but we do need remote object communication in the middleware server ok and am i to understand that xml-rpc/soap are a counterpart for corba in that space? ya or you can roll your own :P we want to support all of those eventually chillywilly: you have experience with flex/bison? not really I read the fles manual eons ago flex ok I worte a paser a loooooong time ago anybody else? :) parser ok i'm back! having local conversations, sorry! ok so derek and i were agreeing on how important synergy is between projects. similar enthusiasm, direction, etc coincidentally, phpgw is currently doing proportionately similar infrastructure for some reason (i dont know the qualifications for this), they've chosen xml-rpc/soap which we will theoretically support ;) people like choice if this project is about anything okay yet gnue prefers corba now. it is about building the tools to allow people to have choice in the short term, as a first shot right on imho you are not tied to one enterprise solution any one I should say yea, we speak CORBA right now so i was wondering if 1) phpgw could be convinced to use corba first instead of xmlrpc/soap (depending on php's support of it and their understanding of corba) and i forgot #2. guess that would be your job to convince them ;) mdean is the one to do the hard core talking he is a bit of a wizard he understands all involved perspectives and i tend to help influence/inform him ppl have prejudices against corba dunno why though corba is pretty kick ass a little heavy I gues guess yeah I was talking to the berlin folk a while back and he was talking about all the shit ppl giv ehim for using corba, but it's working out pretty good for them ok now also you can consider gnue and phpgw doing some roadmap work, and figuring out how phpgw will fit inside, or alongside gnue sure and thereby being able to collaborate on it see Action: dtm gets diplomatic the phpgw team are spry lads quite adventurous and intrepid sooooooo i wonder if it might be best if someone with hard core enterprise experience and object model infrastrucutre experience help em out with their object and messages ;) there, I said it. and you'll have a fully web enabled environment a lot more apps yea an end user frontend bridging into device drivers or whatever human interface what sorta apps you guys have? hm well there are many apps. lots of hands in the kitchen. dont know how many core apps are production quality. definately the webcalendar is there are lots of ideas and nontrivial documentation to fill in holes we need more humans i'm gonna help recruit some the way I see it you have you core packages accounting, crm, supply chain, etc. and in those you will have your nice object models and then for an end user app you would extend those and make them more specific...you see? it would be neat to have some gnue/phpgw/dcl propaganda to have at lwce derek adores and depends on dcl, which is integral with phpgw mdean is a heck of a glue type of personality well i guess so dcl is you creation or it uses phpgw? no i dont program. that's mdean's, which he adapted last week to run as a phpgw app you don't code? what do you do then? beat the coders? :P phpgw's purpose is as a core api and a default application groupware distro (calendar, contact mgr, etc) i'm an enthusiast and sysadmin, and visualizer yeah you're the project coordinator? masta doesn't code much either he just coordinates things, runs our shows, etc. most of the phpgw developers' attention spans are consumed by learning curves, and guiding the short to medium term, and in organizing the bulk of their development itself does contribute code to forms once in a great while, commits the occasional bug fi fix so if i ask how something works in real life, they tell me about tables and protocols, not about user experiences. yeah, masta is more of a people or user perspective kinda guy too no i'm not "the" anything; just on the side jehreg is phpgw's project mgr oh darn I thought you could whip them into shape ;) well i'm higher level than that jehreg's perspective is as a herder as well among whatever else he does, like coding or porting apps to phpgw so i've done things like get gnue to OPN, connect gnue team to phpgw team, and connect dcl team to phpgw team write high level vision docs, like how to obsolete Outlook etc and constantly get trashed for it why do you get trashed? as annoying as i am, it's not really my fault heh well it's the typical non-coder stigma in a primarily developer oriented culture well I wouldn't say I have a lot of enterprise experince I just like to code....see reinhard ans neilt are really more liek package dvelopers who also help GEAS now that we lost its main hacker phpgw isn't bad about it but it was annoying as hell to me, and gnue has given me none of it at all i know i could do more to overcome it, especially with documentation, but they should _definately_ do more to not provide it stigmatizing a community member is short term comic relief to some :) reinhard is probably more of a systems hacker guy yeah well here we need domain experts well that's all good as long as the one(s) at the helm have the experience and drive and non-coders very badly imho we have accountants helping deinfe the accounting package, etc. we have other contacts too with non-coders and we listent o them does "domain experts" refer to specialists? like accountants for accounting see that's what i'm talking about we talk to them listenj to them and let them define the processes in that enterprise you need that kind of input or else ther'e svirtually no point chillywilly: what is a systems hacker guy? reinhard: the ppl who get down and dirty with C if I had to name one guy to personify it I would pick Roland McGrath ;) the original glibc author and hurd hacker extraordinaire uh not sure if this shoe fits me :) i'll do my very best ;) well I would say you are nmore like this than neilt no offense to him of course he's does great job maybe the difference is chillywilly: is Roland the guy who recently criticized RMS? publicly no that's Ilrich Drepper er Ulrich i come from the techical corner and learned the enterprize stuff later yea i think neilt rather comes from the enterprise corner and learned techical stuff and neilt is sorta the opposite right? yea so it's a question where our "home" is, and where we are just "visiting" another field :) yea well I'm an engineer so it's pretty obvious where my home is ;) that's why i love to work with neilt, because we seem to be the opposite in every matter so we complement very well heheh you just don't get to have those nice holy wars about how to do something :P :) Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch mmmmhh lunch is ready :) Nick change: reinhard -> rm-eat so who is responsible for steering the design, schema, purpose, etc of gnue's corba venture ? who would be best pursued to investigate phpgw's direction? ummmm, rm-eat is sorta the GEAS masta or at leat the acting masta but mostly all 3 of us just talk to each other i believe that we have two compatible communities here, although phpgw may be a subset in terms of hard core scope and functionality. if everyone concurs on that principle, i would like to suggest collaboration as much as possible. if you talk to derek he would say that it is renhard by eniority I am sure seniority I agree i might encourage collaboratoin even potentially in the face of compromise on the part of lesser priorities dtm: btw, what did you do when you were working with Jeff? i worked with Jeff, Jason, Jose, and Damian on trying to define the relevance and direction of the next release of linuxppc among tons and tons and tons of community psychological dysfunction and melodrama oh yeah that was a distro right? indescribable amounts yeah it was the first distro of ppc linux, and the last release was 2000Q4 how exactly did Jeff screw up relations with Apple again? rpm based? a redhat port right there I would say that was a mistake with '--force --nodeps' on the whole thing well it's not, but i hear ya rpm sucks nuts oh geez it does not, get off it :) i wont discuss that point at this time :) heh, you run debian ever? no i haven't yet unfortunately i know many who do like my roommate then I rest my case apt is superior only thing close is Mandrake's urpmi uh ok right apples & oranges... well fine whqat's the rh equiv dan i motion for your hushage at this juncture rpmfind? that thing sucks Dan. there are some people who want to hear all about it in #flood :) so get a grip Action: ajmitch puts a gag on chillywilly anyway let's solve some problems here dtm: I can talk about what I wanna talk about in here dang it all Action: dtm dangs it Action: dtm misses some danging, but attempts wholeheartedly for all of it ok so who are the core gnue developers? are there any non-core developers? (yes/no) jamest,jcater, masta, me, reinhard, neilt, .....some of the treshna boys who may mever return....jade is too but he's working on other things and doesn't come around anymore define "treshna"? treshna enterprises inc. in NZ andrewm was the main GEAS developer and got pais to hack GEAS cool treshna enterprises aka 'those bloody madmen' paid ajmitch: hehe there's probably a few older people chillywilly: were any of them sane? but they're all since disappeared HA Action: ajmitch doesn't recall one sane treshna employee i should go visit them ;) i know nothing of treshna well anyone of them can contribute the cvs account is called "treshna" they're using GEAS in some client solutions afaik i wonder if they are still using it? so andru may show up and/or contribute again some day...don't ask me when I think we will geta few more people Action: ajmitch lurks i have no idea why i hang out here Action: chillywilly wishes that ajmitch would help but he's too busy Action: chillywilly slaps ajmitch with a fish bah, what could i help with? oh and he has self esteem issues :P j/k, ajmitch Action: ajmitch drops an MS lawyer on chillywilly aaaaah! rm-eat: so have you looked at phpgw/ ? don't worry M$ will be suing us soon enough Action: ajmitch shoudl show chillywilly the logo of the CS dept here dtm: he said he has not ok thanks for the summary sir i must not have been paying attention qwell I asked him a while ago i see http://www.cs.otago.ac.nz/ chillywilly: suing for what? something you've done or are intending to do? is there anybody out there? bdusauso (bdusauso@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left #gnuenterprise. heh chillywilly: suing you for the use of the GPL? no sugin dotGNU for being a communist traitor terrorist suing heheh oh that #dotgnu http://dotgnu.org I said we to ajmitch cause he is sorta invoved in dotgnu even if only ny association with FreeDevelopers and haning around me all the time ;) hehe Action: ajmitch is just a sad leech who does nothing good for the community you do your school work and let us worry about that ajmitchie Action: ajmitch is just about out of chocolate to eat :( :) ok, chillywilly, i'll let you get trampled by MS lol without me, you have no chance woohoo! i am your personal motivator ;) hey at leats someone is motivating me you need it... Action: ajmitch cracks whip hmm, i guess you get enough whip-cracking at home... ;) ok so i need to read gnue.org to find out what GEAS and the rest of gnue is. does gnue.org use phpnuke? it's secksi yep at least www.gnuenterprise.org does (i think it's same site now) http://freedevelopers.net/forum that one is secksiyerr heh you're just biased vtw er, btw wot? how close is that thing to being done you're the one that's been werkin on it besides the email list intergration stuff I know i haven't had time but you did the last stuff to it gonna go to postnuke? nah go on,,, that would require redoing a whole lot of work postnuke should be fun nah i can do it locally yes it would we need a cvs server on the server like what work? converting stinking gifs for one thing bah Action: ajmitch hisses so anyway...is there anything left on the todo list that isn't done? how many gifs are lying around? I should just finsih that before Tony starts buggin me again umm... probably will ge gifs lying around (except for the coding) yeah but are they used? what does postnuke have that phpnuke doesn;t? true "open" development guess that guy wasn't accepting code from anyone now he is or so I hear ok we need to intergrate with GNU Mailman integrate if he won't accept our code screw him :P I'll maintain it myself who? how about if mailman integrates with phpgw and then gnue integrates with phpgw they PHPNuke guy dtm: we're not looking at gnue at the moment ;) phpgw does CMS? note that jehreg claims to have ported 90% of to phpgw coool hmmmm i just installed phpnuke and i like it but i'm gonna wait for jehreg's port time to play with more toys? ;) yeah see phpgw is assimilating well that might not help immediately furthermore have you guys seen phpgw's user interface?! it is the most mad frickin sweet thing ever but we can replace our system down the road i can give you guys test accounts on my server chillywilly: i'll play with it on here if you want dtm: ok phpgw? dtm: do you use gifs? for anything? not at all, not personally i might use something which uses gifs phpnuke uses em I mean in phpgw for some bizarrre reason stand by gifs are not good gifs are baaaaaad Action: ajmitch will grab the latest phpgw to play with yeah it's full of gifs. that's friggin horrible. I think I would switch to phpgw i have no idea why but i'll get to the bottom of it do you guys think png is ubiquitous now? that's wat we are converting to coz phpgw has to have an absolutely lowest common denominator core all those stinking phpnuke gifs that is phpgw is a totally John Doe type of app i don't give a damn whether png is quite there yet, i don't want to use gifs ;) well ig they run decent borwsers gifs are not acceptable on a Free software copany site i haven't seen any issues with netscape 4.7 (on uni computers) or GNU project site we are gonna use that forum for FD's main site and one for each major project which will all be GNU projects too chillywilly: a forum for each site? project I think i dont want gifs either and i'd just as soon use jpeg even if it was larger jpegs don;t do transparency like dotgnu, etc? pgns do oh right er pngs ajmitch: yes ajmitch: dotgnu wants to use it for hashing out issues png is better quality (lossless) like their RFCs atec png is da bomb to use what for hashing out what issues dotgnu dveelopment development k and other FD/GNU projects whatever comes along but it has to interface with an email list because RMS wants to be able to participate ooh those guys wanna use phpnuke? we are using it it's not ready yet http://www.freedevelopers.net/forum/ dotGNU is an FD project when i worked at Cygnus they were telling me how he refused to allow them to host gnu projects because they were using non-Free mailing list management. is he still "like that"? and GNU project who? RMS? chillywilly: are you participating with dotgnu? chillywilly: yes rms yes I am we have to use 0 non-free software at the moment i guess i'm just tagging along helping with minor things I myself would not have it any other way heck I was gonna let jamest install our gif free version of nuke when we were done at gnue.org chillywilly: oh really? when i first met you, you were dropping a load in your pants about dotgnu's existance ;) *tee hee* yea well things change plus the ppl on the project are good guys and we have to do something about M$ before they extend their monopoly further it's all fitzix's fault really hehe his warm freindly personality won me over so it's a psychological engineering job just as much as a software engineering job :) Action: ajmitch saw some weird person drop into #dotgnu I think so I was just listening to masta too much ;) hopefully dotgnu has or will have a plan on its relationship with M$ the dotgnu guys have their priorities in order if you read the page this project is very difficult in that we will get sued over it i dont doubt that but i hope they know how to protect against rather than support M$ it is not a question of if but when and i am in full support even if it's to be sued you should alert the EFF right away :) they helped fund the decss court case, iirc we're at the then they fight you stage of ghandi ;) next is we win :) yes dotgnu is directly trying to undercut MS' new schemes and they're fighting for Dmitry that's right against the DMCA we will become M$'s direct threat they will not like it you're not only directly confronting M$, you're issuing wide scale civil disobedience that's very important I think it is a noble cause after all it doesn't matter if you have a product at that point just took me a while to get there it will be fun ;) if you can achieve global knowledge of civil disobedience and impeccable conduct party time! ;) dont let anyone on your team who isn't extremely well behaved :) well we have all the right people backing us, Tony, RMS, etc. heh Action: ajmitch has problems installing phpgw they have been trying to work with miguel and mono ajmitch: explain dtm: you mean i'm not allowed on...? oh, checked out from cvs, don't seem to have the setup prog ajmitch: with a leash and a permit, ok ajmitch: is there any special reason you're using cvs rather than stable miguel is such an asshole ajmitch: coz i wouldn't expect it to work, obviously chillywilly: explain dtm: i like playing with shiny new stuff ;) Action: ajmitch sighs & goes to get the boring old stable release ajmitch: uh huh well you skipped shiny and went for jagged and dirty he says he will not be a GNU project because he refuses to call it GNU/Linux and then he points to the glibc release notes as another reason go read the developers list archive you'llsee it chillywilly: is it a condition of being a member of GNU, that you call it "gnu/linux"? developers@dotgnu.org btw phpgw is a gnu project it is? oh cool ;) the basis is lgpl, and all or most apps are gpl yes filed iwth the fsf kewl nice these guys are not the ultimate veterans but they have all bases covered oh my, the tarball is *way* larger than the cvs checkout they have their proverbial "shit" together Action: ajmitch will be lagged for awhile while phpgw downloads yes I feel it is a condition to call it GNU/Linux that means you are in line with GNU politics and insuport of them chillywilly: aside from your opinion, is it a requirement? literqally? not so much GNU politics as GNU ethics dtm: I think so, RMS would have a fit if you had plain "Linux" on your web page i see I would too :) well i'd discuss that with you but odds are not good that you'd be rational about it :) but it is PR I alwyas discuss things rationally if i dont use the term "gnu/linux" then i hope you'll trust that i know what it means chillywilly: hehe and i understand what rms and friends mean well if I correct you don't get angry it is a gut reaction for me now Action: ajmitch needs a faster system bdusauso (bdusauso@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. I wince whenever I see someone refer to the whole system as linux chillywilly: yeah you wont be correcting me though I need to sleep chillywilly: you might present your opinion or approximation of the issue mistakenly as fact, which i request that you not do :) I;m no gonna make a branch tonight eh? what i mean is you have an opinion or approximation/interpretation of the issue... and you might mistakenly think it's a fact it is fact that it is the GNU system...I know that much the name issue is open to interpretation yes so I would request that you not prejudge me rm-eat er, dtm worry rm-eat er, sorry sorry to disturb you guys, but aren't there some gnue users irc channels? not really no thos channel is your one stop source for interactive GNUe help aouch! you need not look any firther further however, I must sleep now ok chillywilly: you've told me that all OS distros which include linux and gnu absolutely need to be called "gnu/linux"... and you say that you'll "correct" me otherwise... and YOU are asking ME to not prejudge you? :) sorry, i didn't realize you can bug rm-eat when he returns chillywilly: good night dan Goodnight dtm: have fun with your GNU/Linux system because I am shutting mine down now :PPP will do :) I'll argue with you another day...just ask ajmitch I love to debate bye chillywilly (danielb@d180.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d180.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client hehe somebody needs to get chillywilly some good artificial intelligence to rap with hey dtm, can you give me more infos about developpers, age, job, ... Just to know... bdusauso: developers of what? Gnue E hmm hold on ; i'll paste you all i knwo Thanks a lot ok so who are the core gnue developers? are there any non-core developers? (yes/no) jamest,jcater, masta, me, reinhard, neilt, .....some of the treshna boys who may mever return....jade is too but he's working on other things and doesn't come around anymore define "treshna"? treshna enterprises inc. in NZ andrewm was the main GEAS developer and got pais to hack GEAS cool treshna enterprises aka 'those bloody madmen' that's all i know. :) thanks hehe that's not so many people... yeah how do you share the tasks? there may be more, i dunno (i am not a developer) Sorry Are you an user i haven't even used gnue yet. i dont even relaly know what it specifically does or how it works :) not really, just a friend of the developers ;) i'm trying to read that now but it doesn't seem very concisely summarized the docs talk about the problem to be solved rather than gnue's current implementation sincerely, i don't understand many things it seems to me that CRM is an issue which partially overlaps into phpgroupware's space in that it needs a web interface My job here is to make a web interface to use with GnuE Crm, Crm, what's that, mmmm? bdusauso: yeah that's why you need to learn phpgw pronto :) it's your web interface gnue wants to merge with it bdusauso: are you familiar at all with it? with what? with phpgw not at all http://phpgroupware.org http://phpgroupware.sf.net #phpgroupware but i'm learning fast bdusauso: furthermore, i have an installation which you're welcome to use bdusauso: the only drawback is that i'd rather not give anybody a shell account here but you're welcome to use phpgw thanks but that won't be necessary. but thanks a lot ok great i'll do what i can to help. i'm a lot more familiar with phpgw bdusauso: i'll prime you on it bdusauso: phpgw is fundamentally eventually an all encompassing Free software web groupware API, and a collection of core apps its core is LGPL and most or all apps are GPL sigh, i got more trouble setting it up ;) understood bdusauso: as far as non-core contributions, the core api (phpgwapi) is availalbe as an embeddable and standalone app platform and people have used it for that. you can use just an underlying stub of phpgwapi in an app which doesn't provide any user functions of phpgw hmm, seems i've actually got to setup postgresql properly ;) such as storage, authentication, palm sync, db abstraction, VFS, etc ajmitch: if you'd care to elaborate in #phpgroupware maybe i or someone else can help; ajmitch: i use pgsql mmmm... ajmitch: i trust that you have apache, php, and pgsql all working together me too... dtm: umm, it just can't connect because i don't have the pgsql authentication setup properly not at ths moment... can't wait to setup these... bdusauso: DCL is an example of an app that was independantly developed and then in one week was lightly ported to function inside phpgw as a phpgw app, then will later be retroactively updated to use phpgwapi in standalone mode shoudl be a simple fix once i figure it out ;) ajmitch: great GUYS -- note that the default GUI for phpgw _sucks_ change the "template" to 'idsociety' right away 'idsociety' is the only UI template which is universally compatible ok what do you mean by universally? phpgw's templates and theming is advanced enough to provide the illusion of working with the MacOS X Aqua UI inside the browser Action: ajmitch tries to find the postgres config files to edit... bdusauso: compatible iwth all browsers ok... bdusauso: other ones require things like IE or Mozilla which one do you use ALSO!! turn off cookie support ok... i use NS 4.7 on MAcOS turn off cookies in /phpgroupware/setup/manageheader.php session management via cookies, is broken phpgw seems to be the thing i need yes it is and in any way that it is not, they should make it a priority to improve it phpgw is not finished but it has achieved critical mass its development is way above par in my experience, compared to the average volunteer project so is gnue not to mention the culture being so open and friendly to everyeon even during conflicts. very resilient neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hey neilt hello ajmitch dtm: but why then did the gnue developers build their own UI? because GNUe seems rather dissimilar to phpgw, and has different goals? you mean the forms UI for GNUe? bdusauso: i think that for some reason gnue just didn't want to be totally web based but i dont remember why it might have been an interoperability issue i really dont remember but it definately needs to be web-enabled maybe it is for some accounting purposes. There was a debate here, in our company some people here think that this part needs some fast response (on a i/o point of view) fast input, fast output that a web based UI hasn't ... there's not much reason why it can't well i guess maybe there is for some we will be web based, but that was not the first purpose i do know that some accountants despeartely rely on saving one second per transaction neilt: you're a core developer, right? of gnue? the first purpose was for small business, running a local network neilt: you might care to read the irc log from tonight dtm: yes neilt: what's your station in gnue, sir? if such a thing dare be quantified i am business process consultant and as such have been involved in working on the application functionality for supply chain, sales, accounting etc. also i maintain the geas parser great, exactly what i need ok well then i guess you're relevant to tonight's discussion dtm: i have never been called relevant before :) thanks ooooooooh feel all that love feel the love! you're most welcome sir we're all on the same team no small parts, etc so how can i help i dont know -- i was told that GEAS is relevant to integration with phpgrouwpare would you care to read our scrollback please or else i can paste you directly relevant parts Action: neilt goes to read the log dtm: do you installed GNUE ? yeah just read the part with me in it -- everything else it irrelevant! bdusauso: no sir (where 'sir' is a gender-inspecific connotation of respect) dtm: no prob dtm: could (and would) you help me install it? well i can take a look-see Action: neilt now goes to read the correct day in the log dtm: which package do i really need? to make a min install? i have no idea bdusauso: oh i'm sorry, i didn't tell you that i've never even seen it and i dont know how it works :) i misused the term package, sorry! dtm: so is phpgw php group ware? yessir pgw == phpgw == phpgroupware neilt: i dont know what GEAS is though, but chillywilly told me that GEAS is magically relevant to phpgw geas connects to clients using CORBA and connects to SQL backend using C for the clients we implement our own objects (business objects) that have both methods and data the data is stored in SQL92 database oh yes ok eventually geas will do thing like load balancing, multiple sql databases etc and did you read all the scrollback ? not quite yes ok GEAS is relevant to my suggestion of where to possibly merge phpgw and gnue phpgw and gnue are both at a point where they're defining fundamental object brokering and message passing infrastrucutre phpgw has for some reason (i dont know why; i'm not skilled enough to understand on sight) chosen xmlrpc/soap and gnue has chosen corba those are the respective points to start with we are certainly in that position Nick change: rm-eat -> reinhard dtm: GNUe has started with CORBA we definitly are not going to be limited to CORBA i'll summarize the scrollback shortly .. ok, i've scanned the log for today even ok any thoughts? was it coherent? i think so we are very interested in working with a groupware project i have not keep track with derek's current thoughts to integrate groupware with gnue, there are actually two projects we run in 2 modes ok 2 tier and multi-tier derek's not coherent with his own thoughts these days :) in 2 tier mode the python client connects directly to SQL database in multi-tier python clinet goes thru GEAS currently these two modes of operating are not compatible dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres[4.18.171.42] long term is to use all multi-tier and geas i can help you understand the current development of GEAS, short term plans, and long term plans i should read your docs first right? i haven't. :} But i really dont have a vision about groupware you shouldn't need to , a whole lto lot dtm: that would help phpgw has their crap together but the docs are ?? in terms of groupware vision how do i say it hee hee some good, some are out of date dtm: regarding derek, that happens sometimes, more often lately :) dtm: is there a concise description of phpgw functionality neilt: updating docs are a BIG todo for me xavier (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. and for me "docs" are the doc/ directory as well as the web page and everything else reinhard: yes hello xavier hello you have any questions about gnue we can (try to) answer for you? do you need some documentation team? until now, no ... just following discussion bdusauso: actually, yes as i said (many times) before, it would be great to develop some docs. I will try to improve my technical english to try to translate some docs... neilt: http://phpgroupware.org Try... i said dtm: :) neilt: see the scrollback where i explained it to bdusauso although the current state of most parts of gnue is too unstable to put too much efforts on docs because you could document something today and translate it in 5 languages very unstable? and it isn't valid anymore tomorrow you're right i mean unstable == changing rapidly yeah gotcha not unstable == buggy hope so neilt: btw: thanks for the "! NOT NUL" problem it was one of the most interesting problems i had the last weeks and i could learn a lot about flex and bison by tracking it down :) dtm: are there any architecture pictures reinhard: not sure i understand neilt: i doubt it neilt: you remember you told me about we should fix the "! NOT NUL" syntax in gcd's? ahh yes i spent like 2 hours yesterday to find out why the problem exists at all reinhard: did i explain the problem and why it is that way and another 2 hours fixing it you fixed it? and i feel like i learned more about how bison/flex work than if i wrote 20 parsers :) neilt: yes but i don't like the fix hoooooooooooooooooooora y actually i don't like all that "expect_..." stuff what do you know about why the problem exists? no, i know the parser wass getting confused, not not what was causing it i suspected the syntax was not clean enough that would be syntax design actually the scanner gets confused i.e. the "lex" part did not pick that up when reading a word, flex must decide wheter it's a "token" (like "class", "method" etc.) or a "symbol" (like "currency"...) the problem is that the same word can be a token or a symbol, depending on the context like when expecting a data type, int is a symbol no int is a token and when expecting a field name, int can be a symbol because int is a valid field name this was done to remove the need for reserved words why dont we just have reserved words? so andrewm defined some variables "expect_datatype" etc. the problem with current design is that yparser.y sets these variables depending on where in the grammar it stands and lparser.l reads the variables BUT yparser.y is always behind the lparser i git it i got it because yparser executes code only when it knows 100% which rule will apply its so simple now that you say it i fought this for 2 days so the problem in this case was that lparser thought "NOT" should be a symbol, not a token and returned "i read a token" scrap that and returned "i read a symbol" and yparser said "no symbol can be here" all the other expect_xxx stuff works more or less because we were lucky at least that is how i get it cool you can't predict in which state the yparser is when the lparser reads a token we need to strip that stuff out of the parser except you understand 100% how bison works internally the easiest way would be to define reserved words reinhard: yes i agree but that would mean that "class", "public",... are not valid as field or method names reinhard: I think that is good design anyway reinhard: so how did you fix the problem hehe consider the following 2 lines int foobar NOT NULL int foobar (); when the parser has read "int foobar" he has not even decided wheter it is a field or a method and he would have to tell the lparser (the scanner) that he is expecting a field atribute for next and he doesn't even know if it will be a field or not so i said after reading foobar set state to "expect_fieldattribute" in any case and if next item is ( or : and we see it's not a field then reset that attribute this works for current bison/flex implementations oh, that is ugly but not as bad as ! but we have to be aware that actually the moment when the code in the yparser file gets processed is not defined per se yparser executes the code when it is sure that the rule x is the only rule that can fit and you actually never know how far lparser is until yparser makes this decision i think it would work now but i promise you will 100% introduce a bug in this system with every subsequent change to the syntax s/you will/everybody (even i) will/ i would be for defining reserved words and the problem goes away from itself so we release this way for this weekend and then do reserved words and clean up parser for next release? we can but then this release is 0.0.6 and nothing else because it's not even gcd syntax freeze you mean release "this way" = with "! not nul" or this way is with ugly fix? if we remove ! NOT NULL and make it NOT NULL then gcd syntax should be ok i mean get rid of "! NOT NULL" we will introduce reserved words (= forbidden field names) in the release this weekend neilt: could you test it? i can commit if you can test i dont think making reserved words is a problem as no one is really developing gcd except us i can test today and tomorrow some this weekend ok btw for next time you fight bison yydebug is your friend and saviour :) yes, i have used that i will modify all of the .gcd files to get rid of '! NOT NULL" ok but please test before you do hours of work :) I will not hours off work, sed is my friend :) ok commited Action: neilt goes to update cvs Action: neilt goes to check out reinhard damage to makefiles don't know how to make /Volumes/AnagadaII/gnue/geas/tools/mac/../../lib/classdefs/classdata_database.h don't know how to make ../../lib/classdefs/classdata_database.c did you update the complete geas tree? classdata_database should not be referenced any longer anywhere reinhard: keep in mind i build on my mac and use a GUI project builder so I have to modify my project files ah classdata_database.* do no longer exist what happened to classdata_database? where is it it is now src/objectstore/compare.[ch] for quite some weeks :) reinhard: you see how long i have been working at paying the bills we moved it because it has db dependent code xavier (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left irc: Client Exiting xavier (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. xavier (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left irc: Client Exiting ghunt (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. sorry for connect-disconnect-reconnect : problems with irc client ghunt: yeah, maybe that's because you are using proprietary software? ;) xchat ?? oh Action: reinhard shuts up quickly reinhard: do you know if there is a way to get the compile date into a string in the c compiler let me check Nick change: ajmitch -> ajzzzz #include int main () { printf ("compiled at %s, %s\n", __DATE__, __TIME__); return 0; } ----- cool, thanks neilt: iirc __DATE__ and __TIME__ are macros that are always defined, should work with every ansi/iso c compiler i'm shocked, gl.gcd has a syntax error :) Action: bdusauso gonna take some rest yes probably dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: bdusauso -> duff bbiab Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away ok tell me if this makes any sense at all: http://mmmgood.net/doc/phpgw_gnue_merge.html dtm: makes sense to me oh wow well ok! :) i did not know DCL was integrated with GNUe it is partially ,thanks to derek cool http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_account.png http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_departments.png elite++ derek adores and depends on dcl ok well let me know if you have any improvements or additions, etc to that doc i just wrote it it's purely outta my own head, and i have very little specific engineering knowledge dtm: do you mind if i post the url for your doc to the discuss mail mlist lemme change the url jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ howdy morning jamest http://mmmgood.net/phpgw_gnue/phpgw_gnue_merge.html jamest: hi neilt: however first i'd like for you to make any additional suggestions you might have neilt: and i might even pass it off to #phpgroupware real quick which i'm doing now. and then pass it off to the mailing list, to those who aren't hip enough to be 24h irc socialites dtm: um, i have stupid questoin i like stupid questions you're from phpgroupware right? well i dont see any particular reason to phrase it that way, but yeah ;) :) i found phpgw first and then found gnue cool you devel phpgroupware? wait, first i found dcl ;) no i dont code dtm: ok, let me know when i should send it? i'm a sysadmin, enthusiast, and visionary/socialite ;) ah, ok sorry I'm completely lost wrt people anymore any suggestions for legibility? some people don't primarily speak English, etc Action: jamest is getting slapped arround by real life i am very very tired :) jamest: :( jamest: do you know of anyone in manhattan who's hiring a junior tech support, junior programmer, etc from ksu? dtm: we use english for GNUe and it mostly has not been a problem jamest: no longer a student neilt: yeah but is my english ok :) ? dtm: yes it is a'ight i try to speak english better everyday, but that's not a piece of cake... dtm: dtm: a'ight ?? all right I guess ok dtm : which language would you propose ? in term of legibility neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.14) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all ra3vat: welcome hi ra3vat ghunt: no, i write English but i was just asking if it's written in decent English that everyone can understand :) hi ra3vat i only know english :) i know only three languages only know, sorry ;-) neilt: do you have a url for GEAS, since it's the gnue component most relevant to this theoretical merge? dtm: what type of url what are you looking for neilt: something describing (visualizing, if necessary) that of gnue which is most relevant to what i'm talking about Jehreg (patrickn@spc-isp-mtl-58-5-488.sprint.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: neilt goes looking at the docs Engoing debate ? everyone say hi to Jehreg, phpgw's project manager hiho. dtm: where are you from? (*Project Manager*, not *Product Manager* :-) ) hi Jehreg ra3vat: i'm in Pleasanton, CA Jehreg: h0h0 hi ra3vat dtm: the architecture of GEAS is pictured at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=NS-My_eGallery&file=index&do=showpic&pid=27 neilt: and would you say that's most relevant to my doc? neilt: Yah, I had a look. neilt: i'm assuming that the short term entry point for collaboration would involve the object/message models, right? i am not sure how phpgw and gnue would fit at the 20,000 foot level neilt: Agreed, we would have to find needs to fill first. so i think phpgw would be a different client and present another entry point for using the system (Disclaimer: Seek3r is ultimate say on phpgroupware) neilt: Whereas we could just treat gnue modules as just another phpgw app. dtm: right and right now our only object/message modules (for GEAS) are CORBA objects s/modules/models/ But that might mean "splicing" the gnue API and slap in our own. why not create a common project ? but I have to say, i am probably not the right person to discuss all of this, it really needs derek, jamest, and reinhard. Same here, I am not the tech, just the manager. I keep the releases on the straight-and-narrow. Jehreg: for GNUe I work on the business functionality not the technical details Hmmm, how are you guys structured for management ? Mostly techies ? neilt: So you and I are cousins. seems so jehreg@phpgroupware.org :) we have a combination of techies and business reinhard, derek, and I are more business others are more techies derek, is the master slave driver Yah, I'm the dedicated slave driver for the phpgw project. And I test releases before issue. neilt: and so am i to understand that corba and xmlrpc/soap are incompatible? i have no idea Jehreg: earlier, i used the term "sheep herder", which is good as opposed to "cat herder" like in the ppc linux community. is that ok? :) Jehreg: do you know if they're compatible in any meaningful way? for our purposes/ ? we are goat herders yes i've HEARD about the goats. so for this channel you have to (must use or refer to goats) :) Seek3r is the Product Manager, he decides the tech. dtm: SOAP and XML-RPC are not imcompatible, they just address different things. sorry: dtm: CORBA and XML-RPC are not imcompatible, they just address different things. ok what i can say is that we have on the drawing board to add alternatives to CORBA we are in the process of abstracting the interfaces to ORBit (our current orb) so that we can use other ways to connect to clients ok well i'm clueless on those things i would expect this to start to materialize in 6 months or so so i dont want my doc to be dumb neilt: We have inter-server comms at this point, how are you guys set for that ? we dont have it We have full LDAP support. You ? testing releases? what an odd concept :) jamest: Well, testing *before* the release.... testing whats that Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard jamest: You don;t have a structured testing cycle ? (Most open projects don't...) you mean we are not done when it compiles :) hi reinhard hi Jehreg reinhard: can you comment on LDAP support? neilt: Yah, the crew was doing exactly that before I came in. neilt: did i miss something? we are moveing to structured testing cycle we should document what each of gnue and phpgw have or dont we are not there yet as we are still in alpha phase for geas btw my comments are only geas our current problems with testing are forms, reports and other tools are done by others neilt: OK, we have a DB-independant DB-API. You ? (In other words, the same codes supports postgres and mysql, etc...) if you test, find bugs and release with the bugs, then you don't need the test Jehreg: yes, sort of if you test, find bugs and fix them before release, we would never come to a release j/k we support mysql, postgresql, oracle, db2 currently neilt: Cool. Jehreg: what do you use as db abstraction layer? we actually have 2 db- API's you want one :) neilt: We have a setup that installs only required apps. you ? reinhard: Hmmm, I am not the best to ask, but I think we brewed our own. i dont do installs, so no clue Jehreg: in what language? neilt: A-la-red-carpet. reinhard: PHP. Jehreg: ah, ok. thanks Jehreg: we have no ready-to-install apps yet but we will have something like that, too not only for installing but also for updating reinhard: Yah, ours will auto-update in a few weeks, IIRC. we are very focused on the business applications only providing the functionality selected by the configurator, but we have not designed the method for doing this yet á la red carpet, like you said Here are our stable apps: Filemanager AddressBook (LDAP or SQL) TODO Calendar Email Notes Chora Headlines Projects Inventory Chat DJ NNTP Stocks Polls (Voting booth) Skeleton App (Example app) -- end -- About 20 others are alpha. We have integrated multi-language. you ? Jehreg: yes multi-language? So, as you can see, we focus on Group Ware, to benefit a team to work together. neilt: You guys obviously focus on business flows. yes So, you could benefit from our Addressbook and todo for sales tracking. We could benefit from your inventory module. only if it is integrated into our objects (obviously) (lemme get your site in my other window) phpgw demo does not work for me? http://phpgroupware.net/phpgw_rel/ not found error? ra3vat: Carp. Seek3r was supposed to fix that. multi language ... which ? ghunt: Hmmm, francais, deutch, at least. Sec... all of our business objects are designed to by multi language we have not translated everything but at the core of the business objects are language and currency I hope these are self-explanatory: br cs da de en es fr hu it ja ko nl no sv zt -end- more to come. currently our tools server etc are only roman and not multibyte Action: duff going to flush some buffer :-) neilt: you mean latin? :) http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/gnue-config/base/language/defaults/insert-ISO639LanguageCodes.geas reinhard: thanks, yes i mean latin well, the romans talked latin :) OK, I looked at the http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=NS-My_eGallery&file=index&do=showpic&pid=28 pic. I think that we could benefit from the whole thing. The are very few common functions with your current apps. Oh, and we do not mind if there are many apps that do the same thing, since we do not mind overlap. I think it would be more beneficial if we ported gnue to phpgw and not the other way around. the business functionality we are working on short term is pictured at: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=NS-My_eGallery&file=index&do=showpic&gid=5&pid=28 The reason for my toughts are these: Jehreg: chance of that happening are about 0% - phpgw can benefit from the whole functionality of gnue. ok take another look at http://mmmgood.net/phpgw_gnue/phpgw_gnue_merge.html - gnue can benefit from a *few* modules of phpgw. neilt: agree - Therefore, a "merge" is not really a good idea for gnue, since they would get little "bang for the buck". IIRC madlock has a partially functional UI for gnuef written in phpgw - So since the benefit is more towards phpgw, then phpgw crew should be the ones expending the effort. i would see the goal of integration not porting we do need a web front end neilt: perhaps i should change the word "merge" in the doc neilt: Ah, then maybe a "shim" between each product ? If you had a XML-RPC hook, we could talk to you that way, and create a front end. we have had very heated discussion over the last year regarding the basic architecture of GNUe and i dont see it changing dtm: yep, merge is kinda huge word. however, part of the architecture is integrating with others very easily and effectively Our whole thing is "hooks", we hook everything :-) Jehreg: hooks are at the basic core our our desires also ok how about "collaborate" in general? We could just create a gnue communications class, and use that .... dtm: better. I'm gonna have to split in 10 mins. Jehreg: ok anything else i need to edit? dtm: just state that phpgw seems to have more to gain than gnue, from this. i'll copy your text OK, so gnue needs a web interface, and we need the gnue functionality. So , we just need to create a phpgw-to-gnue communications class. You got an API def doc ? If we can comm to the gnue-corba objects, then we create a phpgw interface to it, and voila! neilt: madlocke has at least a partially functional web front end working now a UIhtml.py driver We would both be happy. You could just grab the phpgw engine, and the "gnue" phpgw app, and you would be all set. jamest: feel free to join in gnue is written in Python ? Jehreg: we prefer python but clients exists in C and java also we are multi-language neilt: OK, since we are 99% php, then a shim is definatly in order. port/merge/etc is out of the question. neilt: i can't right now Yah, we have a "client" in PHP, but with our XML-RPC efforts, this will be moot. Nick change: dnZzzz -> derek OK, how's this: We send someone in here for the next few weeks, and you send someone over to #phpgroupware ? ya all probably dont even want my opinion on this subject :) i nominate mdean We each install each others product and try it. i will go to #phpgroupware derek: well, we've done fine without you so far. welll... okay. but it will have to be after san francisco derek's not strong. he's got issues! ? as to merge questoin dtm: in all honesty, i am not sure we have the resources to do this currently Ah, we all have issues. i see it as interoperbility Jehreg: heheh we are all very busy right now neilt: Neither do we :-) not merging not duplicating work ok so should i rename it from "collaboration" to "interoperability"? But that should not be a concern per se. gnue never has and never does want to write groupware The idea is to be aware of each other and just mingle in the short term... derek: I agree. but gnue consultants woudl certainly benefit from having a groupware suite to install that played well with the gnue system derek: yes like wise phpgroupware would benefit from having a full featured inventory and accounting system (and other business apps) that tied into the groupware derek: and phpgw would benefit from easily using the gnue suite. it would be convenient if we came up with plans this weekend to announce at LWCE, wouldn't it? or is that hasty? dtm: could be a good move Very hasty, unless Seek3r gets to chat with the gnue decision-maker. the biggest issue i see is we have chosen different RPC methods derek: i certainly wouldn't push anything, but it's not like we're tlaking about releasing gnome 1.0 ahead of schedule ;) Jehreg: yeah we are using CORBA as its xplatform and more oriented towards business Jehreg: definately Jehreg: unless someone goes and just impements it implements Jehreg: some rogue renegade figure SOAP/XML-RPC is still a toy in many respects so doesnt carry the name that corba does with businesses Jehreg: never mind; i'm semi coherent atm we fully plan to support soap/xml-rpc and other rpc mechanism as im sure you are willing to support corba etc derek: I am actually not really concerned with that. I know that sounds like I'm an ostrich, but let's agree to talk to each other at this point. its just a matter of time and timing I nominate mdean to lurk in #gnuenterprise derek: Agreed. as the idea interoperbility would be to have phpgw be able to use geas objects this way it could write front ends or simply garner data dtm: mdean is not often in the channel these days IIRC. I can do it part-time, and I think Seek3r can keep his eyes in here too. i think time is slim with all of us and i agree with neilt we are spread thin here already but i think its good to talk and play derek: Yep, we just have to do a comms class to geas, regardless of what is at your end, CORBA or not... and try to integrate/interoperate Jehreg: mdean is on irc every day for hours; he's mainly in #dcl and not #phpgroupware. i think he can make it. dtm: He would have to be in both (for a change :-) ). if jamest agrees and phpgroupware wants to move forward a press release at LWE might not be an all bad thing im sure i could push it through to slashdot and other sites (Disclaimer: Seek3r is decision-maker for phpgroupware) and put more exposure on both projects derek: Sounds cool. fine by me gravy. You guys log this IRC channel anywhere ? will anyone besides dtm be at lwe? I'll check into t-shirts! derek: I'm a one-man PR team! http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/ I followed the whole discussion and found it very interesting. Guess i found what i've been looking for :-) Thanks Gentlemens... derek: i'm not aware of anyone else from phpgw attending derek: i've asked around a bit mr. one-man pr team you have any marketing slicks etc for phpgw? Cool, I will tell Seek3r to review the log for this convo. derek: haven't done th emailing list derek: no dtm: if you get some made we will use at the gnue booth if you like by marketing slick, it could be a 8x10 flyer explaining phpgroupware that cost 10 bucks to make copies at kinkos Jehreg? dan in your doc er dtm I need the email of the decision maker for gnue.... info@gnue.org goes to our core team derek: ok we are a collective borg not an individual decision maker :) OK, but anyone one individual has last say ? Ah, ok. Jehreg: official jamest and i are co-maintainers Jehreg: rms@gnu.org j/k but we have stepped to point where we only use that if the core cant agree generally around here as much as we bicker "rms" ?? THE rms ? when it comes down to it we agree on most of the critical things :) reinhard: :) yeah technically he will have to 'approve' this as he is the big kahuna ajzzzz (ajmitch@p12-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajzzzz[p12-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz] gnue is an official project of GNU derek: huh? so is RMS considered a project manager? phpgw is also an official project of GNU, IIRC. http://www.gnu.org/projects/gnue/ dtm: he is not a project manager in that sense but if say we went and started using vb as our primary development tool there would be issues :) we have agreement with rms that we are pretty much autonomous Action: jamest looks at all the VB code he'd been working on for gnuef 2.0 Carp, Seek3r had told me that we were now officially a GNU project, but I do not find us listed. you mean VB is a bad thing? but if we merge with projects etc that brad or rms would like to make sure it fits derek: that kind of implies that it could be any other way, eh/ ? since this isnt a 'merge' i dont think its an issue derek: so what value do they add in that type of overhead? dtm: purity of freedom OK, dudes, I gotta vamos. we are pretty much free nazi's and know licensing well enough that its not much issue with us i.e. like the xvcl stuff never made it to them Jehreg: later buddy ttfn. "I'll be back..." Jehreg (patrickn@spc-isp-mtl-58-5-488.sprint.ca) left #gnuenterprise. l8r we kept pushing it back down if that make sense back to your doc phpgw needs: integration with full featured business applications like inventory, invoicing, accounting etc ok - integrated workflow with other enterprise applications (gnue workflow eventually) as far as accounting is concerned, does it take in account the different legislation (US is different from Europe) yes ghunt: yes gnue needs: remove the first item neilt : approved by accountant chambers ? ghunt: not yet as i dont see us using phpgw for that we are every bit as platform independent and location independent etc neilt : to come ? and i dont see phpgw porting everything gnue has in fact i see them porting very little, rather just interoperating derek: remove device drivers? same for number two you say very little porting -- does this account for retrofitting a web interface onto gnue? 3 and 4 are good and the core of why its a good fit dtm: i dont see them doing that i dont see them making web interfaces for gnue oh gnue forms web client would do that ghunt: i am not exactly sure what you mean, but it will be deisgned to meet the real requirements of operating in Europe. We might have separate modules for different countries. We are working on that now. ok i see them interoperating only now nothing would PREVENT them frmo makeing phpgw screens using gnue objects derek: jehreg mentioned eventually possibly porting gnue to phpgw just i dont see that as the initial goal neilt : asking ambacies could be useful the full LDAP is questionable, we need it, but it wont be 'mandatory' and if we support it more than likely we wont use php code from phpgw to do it derek: remove device drivers? so i dont think it belongs in this doc remove all but 3 and 4 * tons of groupware web apps: calendaring, contacts, project management, etc * contacts (addressbook) and todo list for sales tracking done we need 2 and 5 but we wont get it by interoperating with phpgw are you sure about ldap? if that makes sense im sure we need it im also pretty sure we wont be able to reuse php code to use it :) ldap is just a database when you think about it oh yeah its like saying we need to support db2 derek : sounds like mix between SAP and Lotus Notes rdean likes db2! ;) ghunt: good idea, the european requirements are being handled by reinhard (from Austria) so I am not sure what he has planned our 'db2 driver' might be different but ultimately does the same thing ghunt: yes i see gnue=sap phpgw=lotus notes i would add that workflow line to gnue needs too jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. as both of us need integrated workflow :) neilt: you have a preliminary result of parser test yet? reinhard: yes, gnue-config passes the gcdVerifier substitute merge/merging everywhere with interoperate or interface and appears to parse correctly derek: not interface, should read integrate er thats what i meant, good catch change past reasons for merging neilt: cool into similar integration efforts: neilt: do you realize the link in the gnue-discuss email was wrong? the first item there is good and i like it but not much for swaying the audience perhaps change to jcater: nope did not realize should be: http://mmmgood.net/phpgw_gnue/phpgw_gnue_interoperability.html I think DCL and GNUe developers have common goal and vision and share enthusiam to enhance the experience for both sets of users or something item 2 is ok item 3 should say yes, it changed between when i wrote the email and sent the email and I forgot to paste the new link (it looks like) thanks er item three should be removed and at top or at bottom should say something like gnue can be found at _____________ phpgw at ______________ dcl at __________________ item four should say Here are some screen shots of GNUe being used as Gnome GUI for DCL maintenance: acct mgmt and dept (or something like that) jcater: ewps i didn't know he sent it off! i'll make a symlink for that. under phpgw and gnue have some areas of potention app overlap all good but probably remove number 2 i see it mostly being a back end thing perhaps add some overlap in small environments where phpgw inventory hr items might be used instead of gnue dtm: the URL for gnue is wrong (could be better) and should be www.gnuenterprise.org neilt: gotcha * * phpgw needs hard core architectural infrastructure, and gnue needs a hard core web interface is true but i dont know if we would use phpgw for web front end can leave or take this line its up to yhou :) ok i think it's good enough, but i could add that very comment the rest looks good if i get a chance a nice dia diagram displaying this integration would be nice is a web interface absolutely needed ? for ease of use I guess ? ghunt: not needed imho certain apps suck on web so basically you think that the interoperability should be based initially upon additional application functionality, and not upon interface? i.e. accounting work o nthe web just sucks its possible it just sucks some of it can i would say same for invoicing and inventory etc in some cases, every second counts the beauty would be in that one could use gnue in win32, linux to do those things but still garner information in phpgw on them if interoperbility was there dtm: but crm and sales must have web interface IMHO SAP is network based and works with buffers so the accounting might use gnue you need things like autocompletion and such, but i would guess someone could invent a web interface that does high performance accounting er accountant but the manager might see list of oustanding po's etc in phpgw derek: i think web interface for some part of GNUe is manditory eventually neilt: absolutely i'll consider reframing some of this doc's verbase verbage remember there will be web version of forms as well madlocke already has partially working version derek: is it in cvs? no it's not yet um think we are waiting on assignment cool jamest: howdy hi re : translating gnue into php we use c because c combines the flexibility of assembler with the speed of assembler :) :) (/usr/bin/fortune told me this once) will GNUe allow analytic accountancy ? ?????????? ie allow to determine exactly how much costs what U produce ghunt: i sure hope so :) gnue should do things that sap does if that is a good frame of reference maybe not on day one but eventually ghunt: basically you are talking about cost based accounting or activity based costing both as both are useful (I am a management-accounting student) must go to work Nick change: derek -> dnWork ghunt: cost accounting will be separate module as will be activity based accounting right now we are working on basic financial accounting, then we will do management accounting, cost accounting, and finally activity based costing neilt: can you please take a look at geas/doc/gcd/gcd.txt and tell me if you think it makes sense to have (and maintain) this documentation ok will do now reinhard: no reason for that doc ok thanks we can look at the parser source to get that info i am looking through the docs at the moment and find that we have a lot of redundancy here too much docs to maintain so i will at least delete that :) at last no at least damn English :) :) reinhard: do you mind if i edit the FAQ and remove things like the "meaning of life" neilt: the one under docs/ ? yes please wait 5 minutes i am just going through the documentation and fixing things i see ok, can do later if you do the same after i commit my changes we have 4 eyes == better than 2 eyes :) i did just modify the mac docs ok i did not change them :) neilt: ok committed my changes and: if you think another text file is redundant and it could be deleted i agree in advance this number of different documentation files is not maintainable at all think i found 3 or 4 documents where the parameters of geas-server are described ok refresh http://mmmgood.net/phpgw_gnue/phpgw_gnue_interoperability.html check it out where it would be sufficient to have good output from geas-server --help bbl Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away ewps, reload again Seek3r (Seek3r@206.135.57.162) joined #gnuenterprise. hi Seek3r Seek3r: hello hey dtm: How long ago did the phpGroupWare conversation happen? about 1 hour duff and neilt were involved... looks like reinhard left and Derek left bummer Seek3r: jehreg, derek, jamest, and others were involved jamest, derek, and jehreg are at work or something work? bah! I simply launched the idea but nothing concrete Seek3r: i came up with this outta blue sky, ya know? i'm in proofreading mode although the url was posted to the gnue mailing list mean serious ? jamest: do i remember correctly that there is no way of deleting a directory in cvs ? rm-away: while your not away cc -g -O0 -traditional-cpp -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wcast-align -Wsign-compare -o gcdverifier gcdverifier.o -lssl -L/Volumes/AnagadaII/sw/lib -lgmodule -lglib -ldl ../lib/classdefs/libclassdefs.a cc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I/Volumes/AnagadaII/sw/include/glib-1.2 -I/Volumes/AnagadaII/sw/lib/glib/include -I../lib/classdefs -g -O0 -traditional-cpp -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -Wcast-align -Wsign-compare -c geas-oidgen.c geas-oidgen.c: In function `parse_options': geas-oidgen.c:106: warning: implicit declaration of function `getopt' geas-oidgen.c:112: `optarg' undeclared (first use in this function) geas-oidgen.c:112: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once dtm: you always pull stuff out of the blue sky. Amazingly you have been correct on occasion, like when you hooked us up with DCL geas-oidgen.c:112: for each function it appears in.) make[2]: *** [geas-oidgen.o] Error 1 make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 rm-away: any ideas I have a question. I guess GNUe is written in Python... and I see that you guys are working on adding a Corba interface does your code run as a daemon? what code client or server in 2 tier or multi-tier Seek3r: well thanks for the acknowledgement :) neilt: please try to define HAVE_GETOPT_H Seek3r: i didn't wanna stick this in the document coz it's even more blue sky, but _IF_ there was to be any sort of collaborative agreement between dcl, phpgw, and gnue, we could announce it at lwce Seek3r: GNUe clients are written in mostly python, but java version exists also neilt: I know very little about GNUe so enlighten me please neilt: what about the server? in 2 tier mode the client communicates directly with SQL server ack so its all python in n-tier it uses our GEAS server GEAS is written in C and uses CORBA hmmm we currently use ORBit orb would it be possible to add a SOAP or XML-RPC interface to GEAS? yes, we plan to eventually we are in the process of abstracting our APIs perfect' so we can use any type of rpc or other technology that what we had to do so we could have SOAP and XML-RPC and not rely on CORBA althought CORBA is recongized as the business way of doing it my only problem is that I dont know of any PHP code for talking to Corba I also wouldnt want to write code that talks directly to SQL... thats not very safe if you guys ever need to change the database structure at all we have abstracted the db layer so we use the same code to talk to mysql, postgresql, oracle, and db2 neilt: please ignore my last message and re-check out rm-away: thanks but, if you guys had SOAP or XML-RPC interfaces we could build an integrated client for that Seek3r: so are you saying that phpgw has chosen xmlrpc/soap because corba doesn't have good php interfaces? rm-away: that worked dtm: couple reasons. 1) PHP doesnt have any Corba support. 2) Because I believe that 'web services' using SOAP and XML-RPC will be a very big thing, and I want to be there 3) I happen to like XML-RPC and SOAP, because I like XML and I like being able to debug the raw text packets which is not possible with something like Corba But if PHP supported Corba, there is no reason I wouldnt add it in' try http://freshmeat.net/projects/php-orbit/ everything we did is abstracted neilt: thanks for taking the pain and using geas on osx neilt: I hadnt ever seen this.... you are the best tester for portability that one could imagine :) well it may be just the client we need to building a GNUe client in PHP rm-away: :) dtm: OK I have a new task for you dtm: Go hunt down a developer that is interested and has a little time to test this PHP-ORBit against GEAS I am interested, but dont have time at the moment the man issue I think we would have is account management Nick change: jcater -> jcLunch Seek3r: no problem, we dont have account management :) but it accounts objects are very abstracted... we abstracted them so that we can use SQL or LDAP lol how can you not have account management? lets just say its not very robust ahhh ok and we could probably be very open to modifications in this area neilt: we can probably build an acounts object that uses your limited one, and then stacks on the extra stuff we might need keep in mind that we are not even alpha yet or maybe extend your with the extra fields we would need so some functions are not well done, so to speak thats great... makes it easier btw, we are now an official GNU project... so I am sure the FSF would be happy about us trying to work together Seek3r: ok Action: duff is glad to see that both gnue and phpgw developers are here duff: i know this is my 2nd attempt i tried several months ago but there wasn't critical mass it's all good dtm: i'd like to develop some functionalities but ... neilt: out accounts objects and our authentication objects are seperated dtm: i think i'm not experienced enough... Seek3r: what are the odds of phpgw obsoleting the use of .gif throughout itself? i think that .png is ubiquitous now. you? Seek3r: i am not sure how ours are done duff: cool that would be chillywilly or reinhard duff: i dont know what you're into but phpgw has some lower end opportuniaties the idea is that if the user can authenticate from whatever source (sql, ldap, imap, PAM, Nt domain) that is chosen... and the account record in the accounts object doesnt exist... then it will auto generate it based on defaults that the admin sets duff: i mean, developers can start a minor app there dtm: I am in the process of converting everything to jpg and or png Seek3r: gravy i'll note that :) dtm: its part of our GNU complince compliance right on neilt: so who would be the best person to talk to about some of the questions I will have with GEAS? Seek3r: i'm told that neilt is :) reinhard or myself reinhard is better with the corba stuff chillywilly can also help if he is around my knowledge is more around the business objects reinhard and I are partnered to manage the development of geas jcater is doing the python-geas driver using orbit-python product so he might also be able to help Seek3r: is there anything in my doc which is blatantly wrong or needs important change? neilt: OK, so you would be the guy to talk about so that we can have some compatibility in out accounts structure currently our accounts structures are not general business objects, but rather internal geas objects and I have never looked at how they work the original developer of geas is no longer around and we are just taking over it and learning it dtm: I think you need to change it so that it doesnt even bother with much about merging. From what i can see the best thing will be for us to build a client for GEAS/GNUe. Then when they are ready, they can use the new Server<->Server interfaces we have in SOAP/XML-RPC to get access to our groupware data so i can be your interface, but done expect a lot of knowledge immediately neilt: gotcha s/done/don't/ neilt: The main thing I want to make sure of is that we dont try and make GEAS depend on anything from phpGW we want the accounts structure to be generic Seek3r: I did -- reload it --> http://mmmgood.net/phpgw_gnue/phpgw_gnue_interoperability.html and also use sql, ldap, imap, PAM, Nt domain one security proposal is located at: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/security/gesec4db/t1.html we have not finalized this yet nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Seek3r: i mean, it does include the concept of merging, but i think i make it clear that fundamental interoperability is the most likely way. perhaps a clearer distinction would be less confusing to some/ ? jehreg's back. dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo: you really here? neilt: I gotta run in a min... but I am interested... I think it will be easy to build a GNUe client for phpGW Jehreg (jehreg@spc-isp-mtl-58-5-488.sprint.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. cool what Im not sure about is how you would make use of *our* objects for groupware data for jehreg - neilt: I gotta run in a min... but I am interested... I think it will be easy to build a GNUe client for phpGW Seek3r: That's what I was thinking too. i think the first way is to interface your address book functions to our I doubt you guys would want to be dependant on phpGW being installed databaes in case any of you dont know this, Seek3r is the lead developer and decisionmaker of phpgw, and Jehreg is the project manager Seek3r: But it is unclear to me what Gnue would take from us... Jehreg: groupware Jehreg: they want it, and have virtually none it's essential i'll have to think about that Jehreg: I think we have a ton of valueable data to offer, but I doubt very much that they would want to be dependant on phpGW running thats a good way to look at it Seek3r: well that's a potential tradeoff I did not get any indication earlier that GroupWare functionality was looked for in the gnue project. Jehreg: they've always told me that Seek3r: OK, then server to server comms Jehreg: we want groupware neilt: 10-4 but we dont plan on developing it neilt: hmmm neilt: we have server<->server abilities with XML-RPC and SOAP... Seek3r: i mean, if one is going to deploy gnue, which is a critical core app, and which is heavily modular, i see no difference in requiring phpgw additionally i think someone should think about how the customer would use neilt: so you guys could use that to get to the groupware data... but that would mean that it would only be enabled if a phpGW server was running gnue <-> phpgw Seek3r: as long as you stabilize development wait a minute you are talking two different things Seek3r: but that's my opinion at the moment we dont WANT groupware (as part of gnue) we DO WANT strong groupware partnership right now I think we would want to focus on building a GNUe client for phpGW dneighbo: exactly But you want your clients to have access to groupware func, right ? perhaps an analogy would be gnome and gnome office i wouldnt want gnumeric as part of gnome but i do want a spread sheet that plays well with my system in general dneighbo: Ah, I get it. Makes sense. dneighbo: i think at this point we're talking about whether gnumeric depends on gnome or not so dont think of this as gnue trying to consume phpgw or vice versa think of it as a partnership dneighbo: i understand and i hope my doc made that distinction as i fully expect some gnue users will have exchange or other groupware and have no interestin phpgw I think that a server to server comms class would be the best way to go about it. and some phpgw users will have SAP or Quickbooks or peachtree and have no interest in gnue so to me the goal woudl be to make integration w/o dependency I agree. i.e. neither project will benefit by requiring the other to be installed no matter what dneighbo: agreed we would both benefit from good data gateways and object interoperbility if that makes sense dneighbo: i found neilt: http://freshmeat.net/projects/php-orbit/ dneighbo: For us its to build a GNUe client that sits inside of phpGW and depends on GNUe's GEAS service Seek3r: I see a phpgw client using the server to server comms to gnue. right now if we could use this it would be real good Jehreg: nah... straight client Ahhhh, php-orbit. yes i would think that being able to use geas would be the key i have some long term thoughts there OK, php-orbit is still in my definition of server to server comms :-) but for now how ever you see fit Jehreg: we would simply build an auth and accounts class that uses GEAS as the data store, and then use php-orbit for the rest Seek3r: also if you use orbit you can execute our business methods please note php also has a CORBA factory API so you can use any orb (i think) if so i would probably recommend omniORB dneighbo: cool skeeter|work (mpeters@cs26224-244.satx.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ONLY because i assume phpgw works on windows neilt: thats what I mean. Someone can build a GNUe client in PHP that works as a phpGW app just like any other skeeter|work: then we can build an auth and maybe accounts class that uses GNUe (via Corba) as the data store Seek3r: Possibly... we have the app on the server passing data to the gnue server.. skeeter|work: GNUe has this thing called GEAS which is their server. Right now it uses Corba for the RPC, but may at some point offer SOAP/XML-RPC interfaces Seek3r: That would work... a datastore is a datastore.. skeeter|work: yeah, right now they have the server in C and they have client interfaces in Python and Java there should be a python interface to soap.. so adding in a PHP interface shouldnt be a big deal skeeter|work: yeah, python and java support SOAP shouldn't be... with miloschs work already on the interserver stuff, one more server shouldn't be all that more difficult.. :-) Milosch (milos@dsl254-035-221.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise. lo, all speak of the devil... :) Man, the whole crew is showingup. brb, grabbing my pitchfork Maybe we should close the #phpgroupware channel and all move in here :-) lol yes, did anyone call lkthomas? :) No. that would double the number of people in the channel you go right ahead.. (that said to help emphasize no) so, what when who where? Milosch: we are talking about a possible partnership/relationship with GNUe Milosch: it seems to me that we have basicly agreed that it can be done fairly easily they have this server called GEAS which talks Corba Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. hi ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.14) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.66.14] there is a php Corba client that we can use to talk to GEAS with so someone can build a GNUe client that is a phpGW app yeah that would be the best thing for a web client for now and we can also write an accounts and auth class that use GEAS for the data store (we may need to have them add some fields for us actually if you give dtm marketing markups we will handout in our booth at LWE ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.14) joined #gnuenterprise. also if we want to move forward we can announce a press release while there the phpgw will need to have multiple functions, shopping cart, GNUe client, etc.. to go down another path Mr_You: we ahve TONS of functions one thing i was looking at doing who's we? GNUe Portal which would be a 'managerial' dashboard Mr_You: phpgroupware for different metrics for upper management perhaps phpgw framework could be used for this at somepoint dneighbo: that would easily be written in php using the phpgwapi perhaps not, all depeneds yeah cool.. I think phpgw as an API is a good idea, still needs more app integration from dcl and something for the CMS, but yeah its gonna rock if there were phpgw hooks to the gnue data (via geas) it would certainly be compelling :) dneighbo: the phpgwapi (our API) can be used without the whole interface... you can use it in a stripped down form for sites that wont use phpGW Seek3r: we need to be able to tie in phpwebsite/phpgwCMS to GNUe backend so sites that do use phpGW would just have it integrated... those that dont, stiull have a web interface anyhow wanted to throw that out as part of partnership Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater dneighbo: sure I ported phpwebsite to phpgw last month. :-) It's called wcm in our cvs tree. i think it would also be beneficial to work together as peers, server-wise Mr_You: well Milosch just got the XML-RPC interafces working... so we can be accessed from any language now... SOAP support is *almost* done cool dude! is it gonna become a part of a future release? Mlosch: Server-to-server comms ???? No! :-) one being a client for the other is nice, but not near as much fun Mr_You: Yep, .14 cool but still needs shopping cart Yes, I agree. BUt gnue does not have a shopping cart ? dneighbo: btw, we are now a GNU project and we maintain PHP3 support for those that want to stick with the GPL'd PHP I might hack Interchange and GNUe together one day good Mr_You: we have a shopping cart prog we are a gnu project too how do you handle assingment/copyright please tell me its handled some how :) Jehreg: GNUe is just an application platform, a framework to build apon.. dneighbo: working on assigniong everything to the FSF Seek3r : yeah we have not taken a contribution yet that is not assigned our API is all under the LGPL so that any language and license can use it So this is a GNU partnership ! "GNU" "NEW", get it ? ouch.... so we are 'clean' in that respect Seek3r : im sorry to hear that dneighbo: we still have alot of copyright assignment work to do. We have become a GNU project a full year after the project got started Action: dneighbo is not advocate for LGPL in any way shape or form :) but LGPL is acceptable :) Action: Jehreg breathes now. brb all parts of gnue are GPL currently Nick change: Jehreg -> Jehreg-away Action: dneighbo has to leave for a bit too afk dneighbo: thats cool... we just wanted to make it possible for non-gpl'd add-on apps ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.14) left irc: Client Exiting I gotta run too... I think this can work out cleanly Seek3r: good thing ;-) ok, i missed something i guess... Milosch: whatcha miss? we need developer recruitment for GNUe hopefully LWE will get some exposure Mr_You write apps that is best recruitment tool many dont know gnue is USABLE they think its pie in the sky vaporware well I'm hoping a very soon release will have some more functionality ;-) even though we post screen shots etc saying other wise i have started some dclgnue stuff and submitted patch and gnue screens to mdean last night like screens within screens you can have one form call another menus? not menus that is what looking at xvcl for to define process framework currently there is a data wrapper or app wrapper and remote client to database access? where you have app fucntions (open close) and data functions (save, delete, etc_ dneighbo: would could be very close to apps if we have GEAS driver for forms but you dont have process functions (tool bar/ menu) neilt yip Text under the icons would be nice dneighbo: its kinda sad that we are taking so long neilt its all relative i am happy with progress considering its small fist full of developers doing in VERY spare time yeah what about the above? as apps come out development will explode look at what adding a single developer can do in case of jcater or madlocke or rafterman/benno come in and say hey i need x and provide it immediately menus is needed, GEAS, text under icons ;-) multiply such contributions by magnidute of 10 and things progress rapidly are needed must go back to task at work bbl Nick change: dneighbo -> dnaway Jehreg_ (jehreg@spc-isp-mtl-58-6-291.sprint.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: you here. Jehreg-away (jehreg@spc-isp-mtl-58-5-488.sprint.ca) left irc: Ping timeout for Jehreg-away[spc-isp-mtl-58-5-488.sprint.ca] Nick change: Jehreg_ -> Jehreg neilt: in and out this whole real work thing, you know :) jcater: where do i look to find example of So here is a question: using python to excercise orbit and geas without gui so i can write a test program for geas um I need to automate a hardware wholesaler's inventory, to then permit resellers to purchse via web, and the wholesaler also wants to keep the front shop. maybe in gnue-common/src/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py I will use Symbol scanners to track the inventory. that might be a good starting point jcater: thanks Does gnue help with any of this ? Jehreg: yes but not canned neilt: What parts ? that is currently buildable using our tools actually, you might want to grab the previous commit (the one that worked the old way); my current one is broken use forms with SQL server neilt: OK, so I can create entry forms. How about the e-commerce ? i dont know about the web part jcater, jamest, or derek would be the ones to talk to shoppingcart ? credit card handling ? etc.. Jehreg: we are not there yet does gnue allow for multiple gnue servers to talk to each other? and if not, who might be working on that gnue/geas Milosch: that is in the design spec but not being worked on yet right now geas works with single SQL db ok, we are just now getting to this point, the basic login/logout/request interface is there via xmlrpc as of... yesterday ;) Milosch: next is multiple SQL servers Milosch: then multiple geas servers ok, what i am interested in is some sort of spec for open peer server communication specifically xmlrpc or soap, since we are web-based for now Milosch: we currently use CORBA Action: dnaway wishes he could be active in this conversation fwiw: andrew did have prototype for multiple geas servers working Action: neilt wishes dnaway could be active in this conversation also not failover, but in sense of replication do you have a doc that describes your auth specs? dnaway: its not documented or even islands of users communicating server-server dnaway: did he check it in i.e. data wold nto persist but the objects could be pushed to multiple geas servers dnaway: i have not seen reference to that in the code bbiab fires here neilt he may not have checked it in i remember talking about it a bit though the island of users meaning a similar concept as with a mail server, etc skeeter|work: not that i recall skeeter|work: we do have a proposal at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/security/gesec4db/t1.html but its not approved Milosch: we are only CORBA right now we are in the process of abstracting our object API so it will work with SOAP/RPC etc we want to be able to operate with many technologies and not rely on CORBA ok, it would be excellent if there can be some agreeable standard for login and auth via rpc/soap sure, there may be a few methods for that Milosch: our security model is very immature right now and we would very much like to have someone help (write some code) and/or implement. in our design thus far, it is an extension of our browser sessions, whereby the sessionid and a key are passed with every packet post-login ok, i am not sure how much i can help in a C(++) implementation, but can at least work on the open spec(s) upon which we would agree Milosch: what we really need is someone familier with GEAS that can help us integrate a proper security system into our current design Milosch you must understand we are picky in sense we must please corporate people :) which means we cant make security soap based or corba based or gnue based or phpgw basd it needs to be abstracted so client a could use kerebos (sp) client b could use pam dnaway: i was tyring not to put Milosch off until after he agreed to help client c could use home grown etc etc etc ok, i am not opposed to pleasing corps. at all ;) :) that is the approach of rpc mechanisms as well and databases currently now a days everyone agrees you need db abstraction to get wide adoption yet we all still try to force other things on users yes, so once the data is flying over the wire, the structure therein is what interests me gnue is trying to abstract anything it can and give choice this of course is not easy nor fast :) and we are not adverse to short term implementations to get things usable Nick change: neilt -> neil-away with preface that long term we hope to abstract that was our approach in using corba we use corba for rpc for now but we KNOW we want other rpc mechanisms sooner than later :) as for geas methods we are doing python or c methods now but writing so you could do them in perl guile php or other languages dnaway: what is the status of stan's security doc, have you reviewed it? with a little bit of work neil-away i did at one time he is going one step up bleeding edge security which is great but probably not realistic for at least 3 years as its based on SE Linux from the NSA or where ever we something today we need for now i dont mind a common custom solution that could be shared are you suggesting that an xmlrpc interop is less than satisfying for a corporate environment? in that case i guess what could be missing is the definition of the data structure that is passed, etc and then slowly abstract it as the need arises bbl Milosch corporate america is not about risk especially in this economic climate soap and xmlrpc are unproven animals corba is not i see given teh choice corba would be 'safe' xmlrpc/soap would be 'risk' that isnt to say one is better or worse thats just what 'gartner' would report ok, but for the actual intercompatibility, is corba an advantage for talking with other legacy systems now? when gnue started its current phase going on 1.5 years ago soap was nothing more than an RFC spec :) corba was real and tangible thats how we picked it :) that's understandable Milosch probably corba and java are best buddies lots of corprate middleware and apps are java based but, at a very base level, to what other systems could i now talk corba? so corba gives you some immediat 'familiarity' in those shops um all of gnome is corba based so talking to gnumeric, abiword, panels etc in gnome yes, that sounds familiar ;) are all immediate say i wanted to push my gnue contacts to evolution i could probably do via corba and you would be the first large scale opensource server component speaking thusly? no, we would be free software server component ... ;) ;) and yes im teasing sorry, i meant to say open sores Jehreg (jehreg@spc-isp-mtl-58-6-291.sprint.ca) left #gnuenterprise. ideally for what we are doing and you too have to leave, bye rpc like soap etc is all horrible even corba dcom etc as its all synchronous so if client submits something to server it waits and waits and never knows if damn thing failed Action: duff is going to drink some beer bye the ideal would be message queuing of some sort with full asynchronous communication between client and server ghunt (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left irc: Client Exiting anyhow thats another debate Action: dnaway wants some beer heh duff (bdusauso@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left #gnuenterprise. ok, i would suggest that sessions could be used to make this work Action: jcater could use beer too client sends a request, server decides 'oops, that will take awhile' and returns a please wait packet the trick for us is how to then fire off the response later with the sessionid there so the client knows, oh, that was for so and so making soap, for example, only a means to an end for larger requests, or timed replication events Action: Milosch checks the status of the homebrew dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres[4.18.171.42] jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: home ajmitch (ajmitch@p54-max1.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. Jehreg? hmm dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) left irc: Read error to nickr[sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net]: EOF from client nickr (nick@sdsl-64-7-6-186.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) joined #gnuenterprise. - rm-away: geas server is still running (with no load after several hours) - that good or bad? ;-) good unless you develop for m$ then bad because i have not had to call a consultant to get it back up :) stephen (stephen@63.112.225.194) joined #gnuenterprise. stephen (stephen@63.112.225.194) left irc: Read error to stephen[63.112.225.194]: EOF from client to get what back up? Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/uploads/27000/27549_winrg.swf Nick change: skeeter|work -> skeeter|eat Seek3r (Seek3r@206.135.57.162) left irc: Client Exiting jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: [x]chat ajbusy (ajmitch@p54-max1.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajbusy[p54-max1.dun.ihug.co.nz] neil-away (neilt@dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Read error to neil-away[dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net]: Connection reset by peer ajbusy (ajmitch@p4-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ chillywilly (danielb@d94.as14.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard mdean (mdean@arc11x04.kcnet.com) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard: hello reinhard: did we implement boolean as SQL boolean and BOOL as char<1>? no reinhard: what did we do? just a sec i am updating module guide for postgres (geas)boolean = (geas)bool = postgres(BOOL) for mysql (geas)boolean = (geas)bool = (mysql)CHAR(1) oh, i thought we were going to leave bool alone so it did not bother treshna? a. treshna did not use postgres in production but what is done is done cool b. it is even compatible so if a table was created with old version and the field is already created as char(1) in postgres geas still works i just changed the way new fields are created geas works with existing fields no matter if they are char(1) or boo l hey dudes hi Nick change: skeeter|eat -> skeeter chillywilly: hello hi is it ok if I make a branch here in the next 10 minutes or so? Should I wait until after the release? maybe aI should wait until ater the release after in case you fsck it all up? ;) what kind of branch? a branch in the code in cvs chillywilly: please don't hesitate yeah, why are branching it? for methods stuff no please wait until release IF i don't want you to wait for _anything_ so as not to break it the branch is the release a stable branch and dev branch is good IMO this becomes decision on how we do thigns head is the release the branch will become the stable branch once it is stable :P...not this weekend though jamest did the branch and left head as release and EVERY thought that was bad AFTER the fact the branch is chillywilly's private development branch and said this would have been easier to have HEAD as dev his little playpen so there are two dev branches? and branched the stable oh dnaway / chillywilly: problem is ie head should never be trusted and on relesae you tag then branch actually you just need to 'tag' stable release will be some 2 weeks from now dnaway: I want this branch to become stable eventualy then HEAD will be development branch I think then if you end up having to provide a patch we will maybe release this weekend you would check out the tag then branch it but will have another release when we fixed the parser Action: Mr_You likes version based tags.. like 0_1_STABLE or 0_1_DEV guys I am ONLY restating what you all said I'll just wait no biggie i would rather have a tag, not a branch neilt: well it would be tag but if you wanted to patch it then you would need to branch it I wanna work on something whole you guys are doing something else...you know in parallel we wont patch it while neilt i think you would :) chillywilly: that would be you're personal branch if we did this according to layout Mr_You: sorta head is always most current development which might be one or more versions ahead Mr_You: may be come the stable branch eventually so you cant 'wait' for it to become stable chillywilly: sure with all other stuff oign into head going so you would 'patch' releases when that is done in the example of x.x.x x.x would be releases x.x.X would be come patches to releases then all big fixes can goin into the stable and merged back in when necessary if necessary dnaway: this is a special situation you could have STABLE, BETA, ALPHA branches hehe we need something done before 0.1.0 actually thats lame we need to fix parser code reinhard : im just trying to make work easier for the poor bastard oding the merge my suggestion I just don;t wanna screw up anyone's life right now with unfinsished half working methods code :P but we want chillywilly to begin with coding for 0.2 even before we finished 0.1 woudl be create a 'release' branch now let chilly do his work in head could do that too and you continue stuff needed for release in the release branch and merge into head i don't see the difference as you go release, stable, and unstable branches that's good too chilliwilly does x neilt and me do y you want to merge the small changes not the big ones i don't see the difference between we merge x to y or we merge y to x x will be exclusively in methods directory generally your patches will be less code than your dev reinhard: i have to agree with dnaway here do you need separate stable & release branches? y will be exclusively in lib directory so theoritically youshould have to resolve less in the 'working' dev it's nce to have a stable brcnch around for bug fixes of released code you could branch from stable when you want to make each release which may not even exist in unstable code (HEAD) im no cvs wiz im just going by what others have said there's many ways to do this but we need to decide I think :P reinhard: of course if you are going to do merge, they it is your call IMHO s/they/then/ neilt : thats my feeling BUT going forward yes then you get the wonderful pleasure of fixing conflicts chillywilly: you mean set a decent CVs branch policy? we really need to decide which why will have as 'policy' ajmitch: something like that dnaway: yip ok Action: neilt does not like branches actually i don't mind which is branch and which is head Action: reinhard doens't like too neilt: branches can be very useful i just don't want chillywilly to wait for us i'm not familiar with the term "head" is that a random tag name? actually i do not to merge things back together like i'm ok with everything we decide Mr_You: that is the trunk or main branch is that a arbitrary name or a commonly used name? Mr_You: its the most recent of everything and you are probably deciding better than me, looking at our clocks :) Mr_You: it is internale to cvs Mr_You: essentially all i want is that chillywilly can start coding unternal blah and does not have to wait for us reinhard: you make the call reinhard: you will be doing the distribution this is something that could probably be easily changed/corrected if the current method isn't working arrrrggghhh it's 2 a.m. for me and i just returned from a party haha reinhard: or i mean release and you are asking me for a decision :) Action: Mr_You likes release, stable, and unstable branches.. i don't see much conflicts between what chillywilly will do reinhard: well should I just make a branch for neo then this branch can later turn in to a release branch and what we will do before next release reinhard: so you are saying this will be one of your better decisions :) Mr_You: i still don't see why you need a permanent release branch I dun want it broken neilt: lol ajmitch: a cvs repository for updates to the released version Mr_You: you can tag releases, and branch from stable a few days/weeks before each release ajmitch: stable and unstable are dev branches Mr_You: so you could have multiple release branches (from stable) ajmitch: what if release and stable are two incompatible versions then you have a messy codebase ;) well there's a nice section in the cvs book that gpes over 2 different ways to manage cvs branches well it could happen if a rewrite is needed Mr_You: wouldn't a rewrite happen on an unstable branch? ok so let me sum up ajmitch: yes, but it would eventually move to unstable we make a branch now which is called 0.1.0 Mr_You: i kow the gstreamer folks branched for each major unstable feature they developed chillywilly developes in HEAD neilt and me will fix those minor issues in the branch reinhard: sounds good to me before that we will release 0.0.6 = what we have now that works after fixing we will release 0.1.0 then merge into head ajmitch: what if you need to patch a security issue ASAP but don't want to break anything.. will GNUe release a patch to the source code or branch? the branch still exists (iirc) yep and if we need to fix bugs we can even do that in the branch Mr_You: we dont do patches right now, we have 1000 releases to get to alpha and release say 0.1.1 it doesn't go away j/k while chillywilly still develops in HEAD towards 0.2.0 Mr_You: the current release branch, which should be able to be applied to stable if the issue is there sounds good? yeah reinhard: sounds good ok decided :) Mr_You: what i am suggesting is multiple release branches that become unused on a new major release done :P who is going to do branch ? chillywilly: you will have the honour of actively entering the appropriate cvs commands Mr_You: anyway, while we discussed it, they have decided ;) oh yay! heh chillywilly: don't screw up... ok, I can handle it Action: ajmitch coughs Action: chillywilly slaps ajmitch with a fish Action: ajmitch drops a truck on chillywilly if not for other reasons, then because i am not able to do it now any more :) well that's not nice ;) ajmitch: you mean.. you would rather just have different arbitrarily named branches for each major release? i didnt mean to start anything really we can iron this out later Mr_You: yah, why not? ;) Mr_You: like GEAS_0_1_0_BRANCH dnaway: nope we got it done, now dnaway: too late ;) cw needs to do his thing dnaway: I thought we established something....ah well ajmitch: ok.. I don't see any problem with that.. the only difference between our suggestions is my names are static... so we agree.. Mr_You: yeah, i thought that was the case ;) chillywilly: i propose the branch name geas_0_1 chillywilly: you know what you have todo yep because all 0.1.x releases will be from that branch and head will be towards 0.2.0 from now on yep ok neilt: i saw on commit list ok that you removed the question about life, the universe, and everything and you want me to make the branch for you and code in head right? you don't know what the answer is? chillywilly: exactly and you play with the branch? k chillywilly: exactly reinhard: right I got it IMO it is critical that when GNUe is in production and a security or bug fix has been found that you be able to patch/upgrade to the latest minor version or patch for that hole/bug of that releases source code neilt: the answer is 42 but ehat is the question? what hehe reinhard: thats been my problem i always thought it was 19 and i kept getting into legal trouble th answer to everything is 42 neilt admins and others don't want to risk having to upgrade their critical system versus patching current code chillywilly: you know the hitchickers guide to galaxy? (forgive my misspellings) a littel little neilt: it's a joke from that book the book tells that the earth is a big computer go to #42 and when i type xyzzy into geas it does not work :P well have to start earlier there once was a big computer that should calculate the answer to the big question about life, the universe and all of it it's name was "deep blue" he calculated for some millions of years and then said "the answer is 42" then they asked "but what is the question" and they had to build a bigger computer to calculate the question and that bigger computer was called "the earth" and we are all part of that computer hehe well a weird book :) that guy died yes the author sorta sucks :( i reald all 4 of his books within a month I need to read them still maybe that's the reason i'm not sane anymore :) I just heard some of the audio you can get them as mp3s I think anyway bedtime for e they broadcated them on the radio I think me l8r all night reinhard (rm@62.47.44.55) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. l8r time for me to read a bit and then make a branch muuuwahahahahaa you got apache running ajmitch? yes I couldn't reach your phpgroupware install hmm, what did it say? just timed out cos i see nothing in the access.log probably DNS resolution then i keep missing the conversation but in a nut shell we just need to document how to release etc yep and do this stuff (branching) i had a release document i will get in cvs i promise and we can add to it but all of gnue should handle this same way neilt you're a commit animal :) I agree masta just getting ready for release all small stuff if I gleama good way to do things then I will write it down myself to quote blink182 *(ithink) 'all the small things' Mussi (eu@200.167.234.112) joined #gnuenterprise. All the , small things True care, truth brings I'll take, one lift Your ride, best trip Always, I know You'll be at my show Watching, waiting, commiserating Say it ain't so, I will not go, turn the lights off, carry me home Na, na· Late night, come home Work sucks, I know She left me roses by the stairs, surprises let me know she cares Say it ain't so, I will not go, turn the lights off, carry me home Na, na· Say it ain't so, I will not go, turn the lights off, carry me home Keep your head still, I'll be your thrill, the night will go on, my little windmill Say it ain't so, I will not go, turn the lights off, carry me home Keep your head still, I'll be your thrill, the night will go on, my little windmill those guys are so nuts that's why I dig them Mussi (eu@200.167.234.112) left irc: that video when they're running down the street naked is funny good video, could use more goats though eugene (Eugene@194.84.60.1) joined #gnuenterprise. hi ppl Nick change: eugene -> StormBringer hi eugene hi mdean, i must have missed you come in you get my patch? I tip toed in ;-) yes! I'm compiling GNUe stuffs now dnaway: http://gplfram.org er dnaway: http://gplfarm.org ajmitch (ajmitch@p4-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) got netsplit. linux linux linux rules rules rules hah hurray! ajmitch (ajmitch@p4-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. later all neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.70.177.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: I don't think you did.. sorry... man anyone know who erote up that proposal to merge gnue and phpgw? wrote dtm did ah ok don't beat him up ;-) wow, where is that? oh I remember him mentiong you...you're a phpgw guy right? why would I do that Action: ajmitch finds URL somewhere on mmmgood.net http://mmmgood.net/phpgw_gnue/phpgw_gnue_merge.html I was just talking to him about that last night Action: chillywilly is away: gotta pee Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:02:19) dnaway (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: BitchX: made with real honey. Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy jcater (jason@HubS-mcr-24-24-112-3.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: chillywilly is away: trash night skeeter (mpeters@cs26224-244.satx.rr.com) left irc: Read error to skeeter[cs26224-244.satx.rr.com]: Connection reset by peer skeeter (mpeters@cs26224-244.satx.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. trash night? how is that an excuse to get away? :) Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:06:16) trash night here... I gotta take the old lady out to the dumpster... badoom jcater: heh howdy hiya I'll save someone the trouble of dumpster diving for a broken down old lady.. I'll save her for you.. :) by this we must assume she does not irc Nope.. :) lol does she do windows? nope... (the glass kind) the only thing she does well at is complain... ah, no thanks and sometimes not even that.. is your old lady that bad? no... I'm just a joker at heart... Action: Milosch bites his tongue I need to get a way from code every so often.. Milosch: you hungry? jcater: why yes! and this damn vcalendar parser is still killing me.. it doth sucketh thine will to live? I'm parsing about 90% of a fully compliant vcal... just can't figure the remaining 10%... Action: jcater yawns I know.. it's boring.. but it will bring us in line with evolution... phpgw that is.. Action: jcater is tired chillywilly: I'm building cvs geas... any problems I should know about not really I am gonna make a branch soon :P you don't need to worry about that though argh! glib.h not found hmm what's that from? Redneck (jason@HubS-mcr-24-24-112-3.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. glib dveel package devel we require glib? geas does yes ick why is that ick? when did that happen? form the begining why is that ick though'? it is a nice lib as in glibc? doesn't depend on X if that's what you're thinking no glib what's glib? C utility library Redneck (jason@HubS-mcr-24-24-112-3.midsouth.rr.com) left #gnuenterprise. where about do I get this glib? hmmmm gnome cvs or dont get glib with me young man gnome ftp hehe glib basically is written to make C more portable instead of using say malloc () we do g_new(), etc. it also has data strauctures glist etc. routines for loading dso's threads all sorts of goodies Nick change: dnWork -> derek ah ok I assume it's pretty portable (to non Linux unices/bsd's, etc?) just curious derek: howdy yes it is that's the point gotcha when I first saw it, I was thinking glibc, which kinda scared me :) hi jcater you shoudl look at dcl to manage your team if you dont have something in place already I don't (manage? what's that?) rofl that thing we do a lot of in gnue testing, qa, management, organization, documentation you know all that stuff we do here oh, ok Action: jcater must have stumbled into the wrong channel nope you are still in 'Lies, Half Truths and Tall Tales' and wishful thinking I was going to install geas but decided no more prerequisites so close to bedtime they act as a stimulant since when is 11:15 'close to bedtime' for an AI like you Action: jcater was out sick today :( I need to store up sleep before SF Action: jcater thinks jamest is spending time w/wife we need to talk to him about priorities rofl im doing bills ick... you can do mine if you'd like non-computer people are always asking what you're doing on the computer/net hehe seems like lately a few have done that mostly wasting time on IRC :P heh well actually one day I wasn't heh heheh Action: chillywilly is uploading a base tarball for debian unstable so he's not gonna make the branch yet Action: jcater is going to take his unstable head to bed before he branches out of his chair night all nite Nick change: jcater -> jcZzz sleeping? ha nickr: thats for wussies right heheh, you're all wussies compared to chillywilly er, me dun wanna talk in 3rd person nickr's getting angry! Action: chillywilly slaps nickr with a trout? heh, yeah thought you were in bed mister bah you liar sleep walking heh I code in my sleep too you should go to bed...but you're probably planning to call in sick again if you need proof, look at designer :) hehe haha actually I am asleep... you are not having this conversation w/me so what is your problem? you are talking to a sleeping person rofl cause then I can direct you to walk right down the stairs and out the foor into the middle of the road door Action: derek gently picks up jcZzz's hand and slowly inserts into glass of luke warm water lol Action: derek is downloading gnucash gonna just do on my laptop i suppose for now till i can get X/Gnome to work on debian on other box dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 dewd mdean (mdean@arc11x04.kcnet.com) left irc: Client Exiting um i think its more evil than that no it is not it's is eeeeeasy s/is// chillywilly: remind me you belong on the gnue sales team ok Action: chillywilly thinks that derek never ran that command anyway did you install all the X packages? since 7mb of gnucash is taking like 40 minutes to download (dres) damn sourceforge i guess i will attempt to get x working on deb in mean time so does gnue run on hurd yet? bah see you complain about t and yet didn't even try? hmmmmm probably not because of ORBit ORBit works oh well then go compile ot it It just doesn't work when you link a translator with it why don't you port it nickr bayonne wants hurd drivers too or so Dave tells me whats the magick command? pleeeeeeeeease lol purdy please hurd doesn't support any of the hardware for beyonne though I thought you said magic word :P dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 ok which x server driver do i pick i know nada about video card i have the one for your card argh Action: chillywilly srops over dead the concept of autodetect doesnt exist for debian folks does it drops nope well guess its time to book into windows to find out you should know your hardware damnit um why? you know what brand of brake pads are on your car? no, but I am not a mechanic you know which compressor you refridgerator uses chillywilly: im not a pc technician try lspci -v dude Action: chillywilly slaps derek with a trout nummy dude is an invalid switch usage: lspcis [] lol ;) lspci -v | grep dude ? 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc 3D Rage P/M Mobility AGP 2x (rev 64) (prog-if 00 [VGA]) Subsystem: Gateway 2000: Unknown device 2150 Flags: bus master, stepping, medium devsel, latency 66, IRQ 9 Memory at f5000000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16M] I/O ports at 2000 [size=256] Memory at f4100000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K] Expansion ROM at [disabled] [size=128K] Capabilities: that's mine right there woohooo! derek: yes masta autodetecting is good why don't you write code to do it? would be cool anyway to GNU/Linux more windersish in that respect chilly you are one bad little mutha fudger eh? it worked lspci and x aaaaah w00t w00t! have non ximian gnome 1.4 and am blissful (for now) yay for some reason have no windowmanger so its painful though apt-get install sawfish-gnome everything is black so i cant 'see' :( ok will try that says already newest version Milosch (milos@dsl254-035-221.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left #gnuenterprise. hmmmmm you got agood network config? cause gnome don't like that id it is screwed up um it will bitch slap you i think its trying to use ice-wm and its not finding the fonts heh so its freaking dneighbo (dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. go to #pissonme /j #pissonme woops ack hi all. Dan. Derek. hey dude still gotta read you proposal your heheh, they said to be nice to you, the phpgw guys that is I said hey why would I want to be mean? dru (ubvswm@203.97.82.178) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: dru -> andru morning all wassup the andrews live :) hehehe awake from the dead wait. er at least one does i think i need more coffeee theres another andrew next to me coding have i missed anything? cutting another release of GEAS this weekend I am gonna be implementing methods chillywilly: be nice to me?! ;) i wonder what they meant :) any major new featres? a bunch if things are gonna be new of int64 etc. those little things sweet ya know? ya i know i'v ebeen playing coutner strike neilt and reinhard mostly doign this release 0.0.6 is what it will be afaik yip. i havn't done much on gnue in last month I know been working on php web stuff ah and doing some playing with guile well if you have another coder handy still too many andrews here ;) is all of treshna good as far as the legal stuff goes with contributing code? legal stuff?. copyright assignment crap I was just windering if it goes for the whole company chillywilly: who has to assign copyright to who/ or what ? we assign it all to the FSF oh. discussing that with some other open source software companies other day at a party sorta we fill out all that paperwork junk how far will RSM go.... i mean RMS RMS you don't wanna go there with me ask fitzix over there in #dotgnu hehe . i knwo your a bit misguided chilly what?!? you know tims working for gnome now. cause I believe in freedom and I think opne source misses the real issue strange huh? tims? tim. big guy from FSF s/tims/Tim's/ Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch tim who? morning aj I know we don't agree on everything andru, but I'm not the only one who supports GNU here anyway. the point is. the real issue is the people, the technology. and the software at heart. and how it flows though the communities I support GNU chillywilly: Tim Ney oh, ok I just follow RMS blindly and do his every bidding anyway. on with coding who is Tim Ney working for? gnome now chillywilly: GNOME Foundation they employ people? fitzix (barry@sdn-ar-001cthartP113.dialsprint.net) joined #gnuenterprise. not helix ximian you mean chillywilly: i guess so yeah they employ people. they get a lot of funding from places like helix, sun etc aswell as donations i keep using old name. damn me. dame me to heck ahh! hehe boo well I think miguel is being a retard too Action: ajmitch runs for other reasons, but he uses derpper's little tirade as his defense derpper's little tirade? we was just talking about treshna yesterday... ya know his little tantrum he threw andru: Have you seen the glibc-2.2.4 notes? I've seen more intelligent scrawlings in kindergarten ajmitch: you were? was i famous? andru: yep hopefully alll good. andru: we mentioned treshna aka 'those bloody madmen' hehhe mad coders i tell you ah, sorry, i forget you are more than mere men ;) dont forget the women to