ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.234) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.234) left irc: [x]chat chillywilly (danielb@d104.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d104.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: chillywilly (danielb@d104.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Dan. reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. dtm! reinhard: ello my good man how is you GNU/Linux system running today dtm? :P yes I know I am a bastard oh it's just great! hehe why, i used GNU just now : sudo sh -c "time cat /dev/zero > /dev/sda9" isn't that fancy? and it was allowed to execute by the graces of Linux how glorious also one thing I have though about is wrt the naming issue is that Linus never minds getting all the credit even though he only wrote the kernel this fine free software always executes without a hitch it is a 2 way street isn't it? Linus is not so pathetically petty so as to consider the name to bestow credit. particularly the name used in trivial, disposable convenient social context he sure does take the credit easily though i find that to be a particularly absurd claim if not strictly quantified I never hear him give props to GNU for anything correct me if I am wrong oh well! basically, he's usually above the issue. It's simply petty. nah he's ready to bash RMS at every whim and that's a different issue just like most Open Sourcers linus is usually extraordinarily gentlemanly and considerate in public unlike many open sourcers well ok, he's not as bad as say ESR ;) but in any case, this outward behavior and calling something by name, are both totally different than giving credit there's my line; i just drew it :) you're talking about all or nothing and getting irritated because it's basically impossible or irrational people deserve and achieve credit by their accomplishments, not by the volume or positioning of their trumpet you're talking about turning grassroots energy into cheap slimy domination-based marketing well GNU accomplishments are getting put on the back burner...cause thy ay I see it their philosphy is one of the greatest accomplishments the FSF's splintered social skills dig itself into a hole you equate RMS == FSF which isn't toally true their philosophy is _NOT_ an accomplishment. how it's upheld is an accomplishment, and their antagonistic, contrarian, petty, materialistic behavior is against their own philosophy which is that of freedom and of sharing the end doesn't justify the means -- indeed their means can't possibly accomplish what they purport it to, because they're often offending more people than educating it is an accomplishment in regeard to all the software that has been built and inspired by it no that's someone else's accomplishment or it's their accomplishment in an implementation you only get anywhere by standing on the shoulders of those who have come before you May his ideas live on to inspire us. And additionally, may he, one day, be a giant on whose shoulders I stand. the FSF's philosophy has been a gigantic advancement for civilization and their additions to their initial philosophical achievement have been pretty useful like pointing out what's potentially wrong with all these new open source licenses like APSL and SCPL and the traditional ones like BSD a quote form Neal but it's not a perpetual accomplishment well ig decided to use the GPL it will be becaue of RMS's philosphy and vision he has inspired me and I call it GNU/Linux to honor them and gove them credit for creating the foundations on which this system is running your perspective on the issues of credit and achievement is based so squarely and vertically on so much fallacy, confabulation, and "ends justify the means" pseudophilosophy that i wont bother to point out the symptoms too much :) I see their message of freedom, the GPL, etc. the most important things go ahead so you're just trying to connect a real initial achievement, with a real potential problem, by stirring around a giant global mix of facts, confabulation, and subjectivity and that process does not achieve what you think it can where's the evidence? right now you are just doing circle speak it's not just uncompromising. it's blatantly offensive for no good reason. it is only offensicve to those who wish to write the FSF off as a bunch of looks and/or people who just get hungup on RMS's personal quirks the only circle is in trying to follow you, dan. i'm not going to retype what i said in /msg last night and i certainly wouldn't fill up this channel's logs with it. others dont wanna read it either :) loons i love the FSF and RMS and i would and have done a _lot_ for em, so i'll just continue doing that rather than butting peoples' heads. i can agree to disagree as long as I dont have to clean up too much of a mess :) this is justa civil discussion...I am not the one who is getting all crazy about it I'll stop picking o you now mmhmm tha's nice dan :) ;) prrrrrrr I lve the way you keep repeating my name as if you are pointing out that I am some sorta warped individual :P i appreciate calling people by name and vice versa it's a manner of respect and as with any trivial cosmetic gesture, other people do just the same as a derogatory thing ok, dan well I should've guessed with the smiley there kind of like abbreviating a product's or project's name for convenience my bad it's an issue of mutually valid alternate perspectives i.e. "we're both right" how can you say that or something. when you never agreed it is the GNU system in the first place you dont really know what I think. coz you're stating quite the opposite of it :) huh? oh you're confabulating what?! i know what "GNU system" means. I just said huh? how's that "confabulating"? the prior sentence was. "I can read what I said before" --- dtm :P uh huh. sorry, I like to pick at people when I am in a mood just teasing that's about one of the most self evident statements i've seen in weeks i should say "obvious", rather oh geeze here we go again penguinppc.org is down and i need kernels! use intel my linux software raid doesn't work! oh yeah i'll just do that! you mac ppl need to geta grip anyway right. I think you have judged me even before you have really gotten to know me dtm you probably dont know how your euphemism of "teasing" actually affects people eh dan? :) you have no idea what i've judged or how, dan :) I just quoted you it was just me answering you with your own offensiveness mmmhmm i think i'm gonna go somewhere and do something now. make my software raid work, and stuff. aw come on you give up that easily I only abuse the ones I love :P i know you do no you don't i know lots of that kind in the ppc linux community you proabbyl think I am tryint to be mean i get lubbed REAL GOOD no i dont think that in #mklinux and such, a couple of em lub me so good i can't walk right afterwards but they dont mean to hurt! heheh we're jessss tawkin', tha's awl! you sound resentful though poor dtm i get quickly tired of having virtual grip marks in my shoulders you can dish it out but can't take it eh? i dont dish that out. you were just tellig me I was utterly rediculous a few seconds ago confabulated even you can get my full and actually productive attention elsewise :) ok, and what was that dtm? I rest my case :P you're just not as crass as some people which is cool mmhmm I admit it I like to push buttons sometimes I don't. i get verbose and silly and occasionally aggressively so, but i dont hold contests well did just take a poke at me this is not a contest it's definately not very suitable public material for #gnuenteprise :) i caught two raccoons in my backyard this week why you worrying so much? coz it's irritating to myself and others we have filled th logs up with more joyful banter yep i have my logs of the "GNU gum" phenomenon I am irritating you now just by talking to you nosir i'm highly empathetic and i know what you mean, and you're not boxing at me right now so basically I shouldnever bring up a topic that you find offensive right? if you dont know how to talk about it in a fully empathetic way, then that's probably not a good idea in general empathetic and self reflective, etc that's probably not good for much how was I not empathetic? if I disagree...er, I disagree btw, did you just wake up or something? no but i'm kinda tired ya 5hrs sleep today I hearya @)!#@) software raid must refuel frozen dinner the joys of GNU/Linux NO! pizza i'm concentrating squarely on editing the state of just Linux at the moment :) the goats got you today man and one might say i've got a slightly futile pursuit there's no hope for dtm? I have never played with RAID because next to this powermac 8500 with its two 2GB scsi-2 disks i wanted the raid1 on, is a 2U 200+ GB hardware raid engineering sample which fell offa truck from VA so I'm not much help but it's ia32 which is an unhappy proposition otherwise I would help you I have spent many a hour helping da masta highly unaesthetic, to understate it in here great so I'm not all basd bad even ill be sure to come back when we can jam on something ;) k Action: chillywilly is drinking his liter of code red (not the virus) :P man I don't think it is helping much seriously though dtm, I like ya a lot I won't pick on you anymore Action: chillywilly pokes reinhard with a stick I nam oving onto someone else now ;) j/k eye glub choo too dan i would try this 'code red', were i to magically procure such aaaaaw Action: dtm reheats digiorno pizza with extra cheez tis the red mountain dew and nectar of the geek gods mmmmmmmm I want some reheated pizza is damn good i originally learned Slackware in the presence of much Dew also pepsi some gummi savers yes! that was standard fare I loooooove pepsi 1liter choke it back,baby you drinkk coke at all? I hate coke blech gluuuuuuub gluuuuuuuub coke's alright sometimes pepsi and coke are both pretty sharp but pepsi is the best imho coke is just icky this is kinda like comparing between different seasons of "Friends" or something though nah they're all pretty sick when ya really think about it they have distinct tastes oh i know that coke is more mellow and gaseous pepsi is sharper i'm just saying that they're both in no way good for us not really made of anything good true producing no value tasets good though constant destruction highly motivating in the short term yep phosphoric acid weakens your bones barf my roommate is literally addicted to Diet Coke and caffiene is addictivce blech physically and psychologically addicted to the taste but especially caffeine that's even worse I have been drinking less and less he did a chemical analysis of it in college chemistry class its acidity was off the chart plain ol' water has been my drink of choice for a while wow oj's my fave oj is good for ya he says you can clean _anything_ with Diet Coke heheh eats it right of eh? so it is like drinking battery acid? yep cool !good :P clean off metals, coins, linoleum, concrete, etc can permanently stain concrete kewl at least it is useful similar food value to Twinkies mmmmm twinkies it's an edible science experiment uuuuuuughughguhguhg I just had some hohos a while ago neat you got anything on those? "yes they are mad from the lard in a rare breed of sheep: made even negative but there is http://twinkies.com http://www.twinkiesproject.com/ hmmm my connection licks diet coke :P brb I gotta go deain it drain hehehehe those URLs timed out aaaah much better so dtm are you a KDE user? Action: chillywilly forgets cause there's something else we can argue about i've never used it other than being at VA yes it is aw darn that was a guy in #phpgw then i have read about it and am surrounded by people who use it well Gnome 2.0 will never some out as they are not getting along come although i require more background info as to the nature of the projects of gnome and kde commit wars and such yeah i dont know what's going on oe group is in love with bonobo yep the other is not and libgnome, libgnomeui kee getting changed and unchanged and changed again by different ppl i see I dunno what th deal is...if it is a CORBA issue here's how they should sove it amazing make bonobo wupport more than just CORBA support even mmm we are gonan support more thn just CORBA eventually yep but we can only do so much! I would NEVER want to work with Miguel hey now dont play his game it is his way or the hight ay hey i point out that we're publicly logged I know this form experience for all time! ah so what I know that diplomacy is key it is not key if he won't cooperate with you anyway one must compensate one's subjectivity, the unknown, potential bias in others' perceptions of onesself and one's group, etc e.g., DotGNU and Mono it ain't gonan happen diplomacy is especially key when someone wont directly cooperate it hasn't happened it's about leadership by example also a core issue is project management skill there are projects that are managed with tons of peopel with diverse experience and divergent opinions you love to argue aganst me don't you? :P it's not an argument against anything; it's merely a discussion it's a gift well I would work with him on a project but not directly you give me your view, i give you mine or at least idle info/jabber sometimes with usage instructions attached sometimes necessity is the mother of invention i donut have the luxury of forking or coding anything but i would still be diplomatic on principles principle well lets address another issue here what do you think about the glibc thing? so i gotta be extremely cooperative or just leave and wait i dont know much about glibc; i only read slashdot comments but there were some good ones you saw the release notes right? the glibc maintainer was being highly inflammatory and irrational not nice man without proof or supporting info just laying flames so you;re not gonna kick RMS for a change ;) accusations i dont ever kick rms well there real deal is i wouldn't dare risk offending him they were RedHat specific changes that were incompatible if he gets offended at something i say, it's purely an accident :) I hate it when ppl let too much corporate interest get in the way mmhmm plus it wasn't professional of him to put that stuff in the release notes I didn't read the slashdot comments (I rarely rad it anymore) read but I would imagine there were some saying that RMS is trying to dictate things to coders very unprofessional, bad mark on the community especially at this point in time ? RMS has a special talent for getting people to think that he's a dictator yeah, but what power does he really have? uhhhhh huhuhu :) he can't really force anyone to do anythgin what power does the GPL have over people who literally say it "FORCES" them to release their code? the GPL kicked in their friggin door and dragged out their kids, man they can just not use t it sure it did :P "force" <--- amazing they actually use the word "force" in the face of something that can only be used for freedom hehe I don;t think RMS would ever outlaw proprietary software if he could a GPL advocate can have a forceful manner, and i suppose one could leverage the GPL or any other legal entity which doesn't just have wide open non-restrictions i dunno then again I have seen him day that th law should conformto ethics and those are his ethics :P i'm sure his attitude would be different all around if so much of his empathy for the outside world wasn't so synthetic ;) I think he dosn genuninely care he's just not good at expressing it not good at all he is very misunderstood, imho the fact is that RMS is not in charge of such things as general laws, and .. when a person has that kind of lack of experience and is in a zone they design for themselves, their perspective is different when the rubber first meets the road which is his fault most of the time i knwo that he cares ... i'm talking about his empathy in actual active performance i'm talking about his ability to fully understand and give real active support for something he's never experienced the likes of like having a normal job in the middle of nowhere or anywhere he had a normal job when he worked at MIT professors are that way too wouldn't you say?