reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. mornin morn'g will be in and out, playing with the kids chillywilly: you here? yes would you be ok with remerging the branch into head branch causes us some issues commit logs are foobar'd we will have no logs in HEAD once we merge back and we all need 2 different directories and somebody checking out cvs will probably not get current version it seems like neilt and me will do a number of things before 0.1 I am not sure what the issues are though so if you are ok i would merge branch back into HEAD what is wrong? not sure why this commit log issue is what is it doing though? when i commit something it shows the correct files but it shows the diffs of the last change that was made in HEAD uhuh not of my change ok what is wrong with the last commit then? Those are not your changes? no those are the last changes that were in HEAD but the commit messages are not the only problem there were no changes in HEAD it gives you changes that even were before the branch some changes that were made weeks ago are remailed brb well tat's just an email problem what are other probelms? I see that the diffs do not even have branch numbers for the file versions lik 1.xx is not the branch anyway 1.xx.xx.xx would be a branhc revision the list is wrong but the repositroy is fine revision 1.43.2.3 date: 2001/09/01 17:09:44; author: reinhard; state: Exp; lines: +14 -7 don't create internal fields for typedefs ---------------------------- revision 1.43.2.2 date: 2001/09/01 14:41:03; author: reinhard; state: Exp; lines: +3 -3 changed internal field name "objectid" to "sys_id" use localtime instead of localtime_r because localtime_r is not portable enough ---------------------------- revision 1.43.2.1 date: 2001/08/28 17:30:11; author: reinhard; state: Exp; lines: +34 -15 Added automatic fields for user and time of creation and modification of each object instance ============================================================================= danielb@obfuscation:~/src/gnue/geas/lib/classdefs$ aaah I see it puts the HEAD stuff at the top the nrach revisions are at the bottom hmmm that is weird so it takes the HEAD top diff no biggie there must ne a way to fix it see what I mean? do cvs log gnue/geas/lib/classdefs/gcdparser.c the branch revisions are at the bottom so it takes the top 2 from head my other problems and does a diff one day we will have to merge all this back into HEAD sure Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet? and then we will have a single line in the ChangeLog "merged changes from branch" or so other problem that's not a problem when somebody goes and gets current cvs version he gets old stuff actually all thes module sshould be separate anyway I dunno why they are all under gnue then it would not be as hairy imho brb I see thogh ChangeLog will be wrong bah there's gotta be a way to fix it though chillywilly: i think best would be to merge branch back into head _now_ well I am sure people have deat with this before then neilt and me can hack in HEAD and there's a way to fix this and when you have first code to commit we can make a new branch but meanwhile things are fixed not if it still doe sit backwards and meanwhile we can inform about those issues still have the same probelm then does gnuef do that though hmmmmm they branched once yes may be my screw up nope iirc they had a bad time merging back they have branch revisions on the botto bottom it is a pain to merge back sometimes so i think we should make the time span of the branch as short as possible == branch not earlier than really necessary == branch when we really have the first code for methods ready sure but what you don;t see here s that if we need to fix bugs ona stable version we have the branch for that wlel we could've waited yeah it wasn't necessary i had like 10 commits last week and maybe i will have another 10 next week unless you consider 0.1 a somewhat stable release so i think it would be worth merging back now and maybe branching again later for real that will need to be fixed if bugs arise sure doesn;t matter to me mayeb that script doe sdo the ChangeLog correctly though I dunno what you can do about the diffs though we should figure out a solution before we decided to do it again :P thing is it is only worht branching if you need to implement some major features and you want a stable branch around for quick bug fix releases imho you can go ahaead and merge back in...I still have way too much other crap in my way :( Action: chillywilly is felling a bit stressed feeling even what are you stressed about, dan I would rather work on methods just gnue? no Gnue is never stressful that's good :) i'm always stresesd I liked your site there dtm about FCC oh really er CCF whatever it is I forget all input is appreciated although /msg is probably best it's fCC FCC did you like the name federal communications commission? :P close teasing foundations course consulting I remember ys I dig that name ya ok Action: chillywilly is gonna call his GHC GNU Hippy Consulting :P lol chillywilly: ok i will merge back have fun chillywilly: so please if you have new methods code don't commit before talking to me ok chillywilly: and: thanks :) no problem not sure what I did you helped me deciding :) gnu hippies, alright! to get thanks for aaaah k i was at the booth with Jason, who one might think is like a hippie Cater? jc is a long haired freaky perosn? he's very laid back. he has bones in his dreadlocks, and whatever else people want him to put in em including a beaver vertebrae what?!? last name unknown, but totally unique person imho GNUe booth? got a big ring through the tongue and probably occasionally the septum no at FSF ooooh hmmmm Jason... yessah lives in Berkeley I don't think I know any Jasons that work at the FSF the only other thing i know about him is that i met him at the March 1999 lwce he's got some neato stuff going on jcater is one of our guys I thoughth you weretaling about hom for a second was it jcater or jamest at the gnue booth with derek? with the wife jamest iirc he brought hsi wife I think Action: chillywilly wants a Linux World Expo in Miwlaukee Milwaukee even i see! then maybe U can make it there s/U/I :P reinhard: you can just blame me I pressured you into it h0h0 it will make neilt happy anyway he was opposed to the whole branch thing chillywilly: no blame in the first place chillywilly: am i totally nuts or am i correct in thinking that you have a wife and/or children I do have a 3 year old child we are not married yet http://goats.gnue.org/~chillywilly/photos/ ahhh Action: dtm peruses yes I know some of those images are big you'll just have to suffer mwaaaahahahaa you have dsl so you'll be ok man my hs grad pictre sure is funny I was having fun wiht my ma's scanner one day chillywilly: h0h0 just decided to scan in a bunch of pictures that were in my wallet i was just about to tell you that you had two pics of ~1.9MB apiece ; ;) they're not on a web page so... scotty.png is the latest picture of him tee hee silly er? silly pics the phto booth ones are photo yeorp where's your pics at? ;) Action: chillywilly wants to see reinhard's pics too http://mmmgood.net and my mom's site is http://shadycreekdecordesign.com who is amber? you there? http://mmmgood.net/pics/varesearch_move_to_sunnyvale/IMG05.JPG Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy which on of these ppl is you? s/on/one chillywilly: sorry no pics of me in the web bah I gotta give up the line bye chillywilly (danielb@d38.as1.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d38.as1.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. anil (anil@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) left irc: Client Exiting stuq__ (stuq@c5300-1-ip123.albany.thebiz.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) got netsplit. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. stuq__ (stuq@c5300-1-ip123.albany.thebiz.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by farmer.openprojects.net chillywilly (danielb@d176.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch Nick change: ajmitch -> ajzzzz ajzzzz (ajmitch@p8-max1.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajzzzz[p8-max1.dun.ihug.co.nz] ajzzzz (ajmitch@p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d176.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d176.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.214) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.66.138.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ - chillywilly & reinhard as long as we follow some rules for cw code i wonder if we need to have a branch 1 - cw only commits code that compiles 2 - if cw needs to change code outside of methods, we make sure it does not break other stuff outside of methods since methods is so isolated anyway, i would us to try this approach - neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.66.138.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: bbl - on and off today neilt (neilt@dialup-63.215.118.6.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ neilt: can't conect to geas with guestlogin after recompile? connect recreated gnue db guest login issue solved hello hi the changes reinhard made mean you will need to clean all db's and start over because he changed the name of the objectid to sys_id which is a major field used for everything yea, now i see sorry, but we felt that it was better to do it early, instead of waiting because now all fields added by geas are in the format sys_* no problem now my example also faults on: conv = self.database.newObject("currency::conversion") conv.setReference("from", cur) where cur = self.database.loadSingleObject("currency::currency", "code", "USD") it faults on conv.setReference neilt (neilt@dialup-63.215.118.6.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout for neilt[dialup-63.215.118.6.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net] neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.70.115.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ ra3vat: sorry my link went dead i dont know about that error you'll need to wait for reinhard Mussi (eu@200.167.235.88) joined #gnuenterprise. Mussi (eu@200.167.235.88) left #gnuenterprise. neilt: probably my fault neilt: loading default data should be fixed as there is always reference to objectid and even after that it complain psql:/home/ds/gnue_unstable/gnue/gnue-config/base/currency/defaults/insert-en-IS O4217-currency.sql:173: ERROR: ExecAppend: Fail to add null value in not null a ttribute sys_cre_user be back in about two hour ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.214) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.214] jcater (jason@HubS-mcr-24-24-112-3.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@HubS-mcr-24-24-112-3.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: Read error to jcater[HubS-mcr-24-24-112-3.midsouth.rr.com]: Connection reset by peer ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.162) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat: hello all new .geas files have been checked in i am modifing the loader to add sys_cre_user and sys_cre_time to the objects as they are loaded ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.162) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.162] ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.113) joined #gnuenterprise. stuq__ (stuq@c5300-1-ip123.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: [x]chat ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip123.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt: you're here? i have only a few minutes please try a complete recompile of geas your problem looks like you still use old code somewhere yes i did make clean then make and it still does it duh i might have done make in the geas/src dir ah hold on, doing it again that could be the reason :) reinhard: did you see ra3vat's error its in the log ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip123.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: [x]chat that could be because of the new fields, and if so i have fixed in in cvs reinhard: that seemed to work sorry, reinhard: - [12:36] MSG541 reinhard: found another problem when i run parse_load_sql.py it complains that sys_mod_user has to have something in it it is not nnull i dont think this is right or i am going to have to create the mod fields and make them = cre fields for create back my strategy was cre = data/user of creation mod = date/user of last write access so after initial insert in database cre = mod so they are the same when a object is created if mod = NULL after insert correct yes correct if mod = NULL after insert you can't do things like "where sys_mod_date < ..." ahh ok i am really glad i created the .geas format yes because this all make the initial load sql really complex maybe someday those files will be processed via geas not via direct sql maybe :) yes can you look at this: Initialising business class method handling. error: [methods_glibmodule.h/113] [load_method_handlers] Required module '/home/ds/gnue_unstable/gnue/geas/examples/businessobjects/methods/.libs/libunit__conversion.so' was missing : /home/ds/gnue_unstable/gnue/geas/examples/businessobjects/methods/.libs/libunit__conversion.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory error: [geas-server.c/533] [main] Method handler could not be initialised. .libs directory really exist but empty? ra3vat: this is ok this is because we defined that there is a method in the unit::conversion class but we didn't code that method yet ok initial data loading still fails i think neilt is looking into that as we speak btw: i totally forgot that we have to change data loading, sorry :( reinhard: somewhere in my "sandbox" example I used syntax obj.objectID. How it should looks now? ra3vat: this is still valid obj.sys_id is correct now ra3vat: you just should not rely on a _field_name_ called objectid ajzzzz (ajmitch@p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajzzzz[p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz] in the corba object "DataObject" there is still a property "objectID" this is the difference obj.objectID is still valid obj.getField("objectid") is no longer valid and must be replaced by obj.getField("sys_id") jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-202033.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ neilt / ra3vat: you switched back to HEAD? yes i did not use branch at all ok neilt: btw i agree that we maybe don't need branch at al all bbl reinhard: later Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away thanks ajzzzz (ajmitch@p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat: i just committed revisins to the initial data loading, i think it works now branch? welcome back jamest how was the show ? different than expected nice to meet jcater and derek face to face and it really helped stomp out existing bugs in new gnuef stuff cool jamest: do you know how i get a .py file to keep execution flags huh? i keep having to do chmod 755 to make it executable ah after any cvs operation is this after running a setup.py style install? what a minute i may be after i edit the file nevermind ajzzzz (ajmitch@p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajzzzz[p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz] bb in a bit (have homework to finish) ra3vat: i am going to have to go for a bit did you get initial loading to work after my last checkin to cvs? ajzzzz (ajmitch@p61-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt: what you guys working on? ra3vat: how goes the i18n support? bbl jamest: we've just been playing around waiting for a driver to use with forms :) j/k back we have added base fields to all objects that include create user, create date/time, modified user, modified date/time we cleaned up one master/slave problem that ra3vat found ra3vat: i just checked in fixes for the initial load problems neilt: ok, checked cvs hi jamest neilt: loaded except of this: psql:/home/ds/gnue_unstable/gnue/gnue-config/sales/sales-order/defaults/insert-e n-line-type.sql:11: ERROR: Relation 'so__line_type' does not exist that table name has changed and that file belongs someplace else probably wont get fixed today thanks ok, thanks you too did you see that i changed the strategy for the load files to include the new fields fyi if you create your own files strategy? what this? i dont use GEAS-OBJECT-ID it is now GEAS-SYS and it is both in the INSERT and VALUE part of the statement in the .geas fils file strategy = approach in this case neilt: reinhard fixed something that caused geas crash at friday with my example Action: ra3vat is glad his "sandbox" is in production state again yes, we found that implicit lists were not being correctly initialized in the object database during the parse thank you for finding that it's not me who deserve the thanks giving i've just ocasionally met the problem you guys fixed it thanks you :) :) jamest: you still here here now neilt: what perms you need for the site? jamest; hope my paperwork has arrived alreagy fo fsf dmitry right? yes if so it arrived this last week? ? = . should be mine yip can verify in a sec Action: jamest is doing the email catchup thing from early august :( jamest: i'm back what was the question? you needed permissions to do something to the site but I missed you in IRC earlier in the week also you sent mail aug 14th asking to move docs i need write/create permissions to the web docs directory ok, can do then i will move all docs over to that dir cool, give me a sec and get it updated lol, I didn't even know this was added to our site :) lol as long as you dont check all those back doors i added also :) what do you mean drwxrwxr-x 15 jamest jamest 4096 Jun 18 08:19 docs you added it sigh it was my evil twin :) ahhh jcater then :) has he been in here not recently ok, log in again and you'll have been added to the www-data group all of the files are in the jamest group not any more :) cool, works fine probably wont get much done today, we have family in from out of town jamest: thanks lol this is the first day in a long, long time i have time for gnue :) i've noticed you have not been around much will that change once you get used to being back in school? yeah, classes, real work, house work, and taekwondo overwhelmed me for a bit yes plus last week helped alot cool at least in the motivational area so derek took his ball bat? :) the new todo list is depressing :( but its encouraging to see more and more people comming by do you know when derek is likely to be back he hasn't been in here? nope not in a couple of days i know this last trip was going to be the last for a bit maybe he's playing catchup at home jamest: did you guys make any progress on geas driver? um, yes and no yes in that the killer bugs in forms should now be gone ? cool so we can proceed with the driver extensoins before the new stuff was hideously broken a bad cvs merge on my part it seems :( and a few flaws in design tell me we had some trouble with cvs branch does geas support object introspection? and killed it yes and no cvs branch is a dead end now as of probably wednesday which branch are you talking about the gnuef branch did you guys branch geas too? i was talkiing obout the geas branch not the geas branch does not exist any more branches are a nightmare yes, we were getting cvs emails that were totally wrong gnuef has decided not to use them anymore so have we except to do bug fixes on released code Nick change: ajzzzz -> ajmitch on the yes and no for geas introspection can you elaborate? you can determine if an object is a member of a class get a list of fields determine the date created and modified geas runs on mac? look in geas/idl/dataobject.idl Action: jamest is still doing the mail thing yes as for as it has been tested i cant get orbit-python to run right now jamest: i released geas to the mac community and we got over 1000 hits from mac users s/hits/accesses/ wow too cool give me a sec on the looking at the idl, see a fire at work I'm not seeing any way for geas to report the available classes thats the no part :) :) I see the classes attribute reinhard and i have been talking about these types of needs so we are open to suggestions we know we have to improve introspection i am not sure how to use it but look in schema.idl ok, it doesn't seem to have anything that would provide the info did you look in schema.idl yes, quickly my main system at work is ding dying this info is all supposed to be available to the client with no security restrictions ok it must know you are back :) no, it started last week when it knew I was gone and I've been limping it along till next week time to reboot won't help, it's a multi-filesystem space shortage yuck too many new users, and activity this school year sigh, my irish friend turned out to be a pathalogical liar who? gotta love that the one girl on IRC that I decide to give a chance um neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.70.115.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left #gnuenterprise. you sure it was a girl? :) neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.70.115.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ neilt: you have admin on the site right? on the web site, yes ok, just making sure you were good to go if you talking about phpnuke or whatever it is yip that's it neilt: to add sections to the site log in as admin and go to the manage sections part you'll need a graphic to denote the section as it doesn't display text descriptions with sections :( ok, thanks i think we got that done where are the default selections for graphics stored? IIRC /var/www/images ok, thanks Nick change: neilt -> neil-away chillywilly (danielb@d131.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: neil-away -> neilt hi jamest: the introspection routines are in connection.idl why did you switch to sys_id again? hello cw chillywilly: ? objectid -> sys_id yes what do you mean by again s/you/we Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard not again just why I gorget chillywilly: i am just answering your mail forget oh :P go ahead then ;) I'll wait sent received hmmm but is there really a clash...if it is an OID it should be called that you could also call it a rowid or a record id for clarity if anything else these are objects and you always use oid to map to a relational databse neilt: it doesn't have a method to return defined classes that I can find but these are objects I like OO design ClassDefinition getFullClassDefinition( in string name ) // includes inherited fields raises(UnknownClass,ServerError); in conncetion.idl but I have to pass it a class name to begin with connection.idl readonly attribute classnames classes; it seems to be the same as getClassDefinition only it also returns inherited fields in connection.idl you want a getAllClassNames() process we don't have good reflection mechanism or whatever yes, i think so /** * A list of the names of classes currently visible to the user on * the server. */ readonly attribute classnames classes; reinhard: I saw that but wouldn't it be bad form for gnuef to ask for that directly shouldn't this be via a method? Action: jamest is just asking you have no riteria for the object? from my understanding a readonly attribute and a getFoo method are basically the same criteria or IOW a readonly attribute is just a method with only a return parameter and no imput parameters I don't think it matters right now if you just use the classnames attribute yes readonly is the same as decelaring a get class so this is the same as classnames classes(); cool jamest: what do you need that for anyway? doesn't the form define which class it wants to connect to? yes it exposes things, but I do not think we really have a proper mechanism or abstraction for class meta data stuff i was also wondering that Action: chillywilly still connot think of the term the drivers are going to be extended so that the designer can figure out what datasources are available ahh this includes the geas drivers ok good point i like that hey jamest can the forms client hav different front ends or do you need to write a whole separate client? it can have different fronends it used to have a curses one but it's currently broken yeah is that stand alone? nope, just a driver for the system kewl UI drivers are like db drivers nice yip, they are being redesigned and madlocke has an html driver in the works as well jamest: have you tried to build geas on solaris lately? no would you mind trying if you have time? jamest: you ever play with PyHP? sure neilt has been running into portability problems a few times lately jamest: you would mind? ;) chillywilly: never heard of it like embedded python in your html reinhard: I'm trying to now it looks to be a very yong project has madlocke been arround lately? young even jamest: you know that orbit depends on alloca unconditionally? reinhard: which is a bad thing? from what i can tell yes not all systems have alloca what is alloca? it's a bsd thing iirc a function that some systems have and some not it's not posix? crap well not orbit depends on that function orbit generated code depends on that function so not orbit depends on alloca GEAS depends on alloca. :( no promises here but I'm wanting to dig into geas soon alloca is a GNU and BSD extension maybe we can recode the interface to not depend on CORBA jamest: cool jamest: what part all of it if I have the time yes we have that as a todo I really want to learn enough to see if/where gnue-common and geas can merge so we can share code be it c or python right now the most important todo is getting methods working Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy well, I'm working on methods (triggers) in gnuef now it'd be nice to share if possible and a better driver for geas <-> forms jamest: if you only get geas to compile on solaris this would be already great :) neilt: yes, that's first reinhard: running autogen.sh now reinhard: crap ./configure: syntax error at line 551: `AM_CONFIG_HEADER' unexpected huh? you have automake installed? euler$ automake --version automake (GNU automake) 1.4 on the geas branch thing did you guys tag cvs at the geas 0.0.6 release? yep good jamest: can you please check aclocal --print-ac-dir and look if you have header.m4 in that directory? euler$ aclocal --print-ac-dir /usr/local/share/aclocal euler$ ls -al /usr/local/share/aclocal lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 48 Jan 5 2001 header.m4 -> ../../encap/automake-1.4/share/aclocal/header.m4 hmmm.. and the link target does exist, right? any mutt sure here/ yip it contains nothing about orbit no but it should contain AM_CONFIG_HEADER AC_CONFIG_HEADER([$1]) what is orbits compiler named? ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.113) got netsplit. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) got netsplit. jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-202033.flinthills.com) got netsplit. neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.70.115.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) got netsplit. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@d131.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) got netsplit. reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) got netsplit. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.70.115.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+oo gnuebot neilt' by zelazny.openprojects.net Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) returned to #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d131.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.113) returned to #gnuenterprise. jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-202033.flinthills.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ jamest: this is not an orbit problem at all I'm wondering if orbit is even installed i don't recall the name of it's compiler to check aclocal should have copied the definition of AM_CONFIG_HEADER into aclocal.m4 orbit-config --version :) command not found Action: jamest is off grabbing orbit gack! there's 15 different orbits! :) jamest: i still think AM_CONFIG_HEADER is a autoconf problem it very well may be but which orbit are people using so I can start downloading the right one 0.5.8 neilt: there are some TODO's for the parser you got some time to code in the next days or may i help you there? you can help, i really have no time, except tuesday and maybe some on Friday neilt: i am seriously considering a rewrite of the .l and .y files if you have the time, that would be great i wonder if that is the best use of time right now well we have a lot of changes that will go in these files like points 1. to 5. of todo or something like that it will be much easier after a (partial) rewrite imho are those the lex files? not sure if i would dare doing these TODO's in the current code jamest: lex and bison thats why i have not done more also but thought we could get away from a rewrite actually flex and bison neilt: correct :) not that it is a big difference, but it is a little difference jamest: you are experienced with flex/bison or lex/yacc? just make gcds xml and have jcater whip up an object designer ;) reinhard: no jamest: ok, just sounded like you want to volunteer ;) then the parser becomes infinitely easier :P...dunno if that would be a good enough reason neilt: if we want to keep gcd files, we have to rewrite the parser imho what about this Action: jamest hasn't dug in at all the only question is our plans to put object definitions in database instead of text files if that was within a short time, a rewrite wouldn't be worth it jamest: what about what I'm searching ok I've spent about 10 sec of thought on this can we put the parser in python? jamest: thats more than the whole deisgn og geas s/og/of/ i looked at python parsers and they suck neilt: rofl, but true Action: jamest is very interested in moving as much as possible into gnue-common (c or python) for documentation most free code sux for dox python is no exception :) jamest: do you have a python parser in mind Action: chillywilly is not impressed with GEAS's design either flex/bison is documented and understandable yes no I do not flex/bison is for isane ppl it's easy to write a parser in flex/bison YES we just have a shitty design of our language if you are insane :) j/k ok, the base of what I'm wonding is this Action: jamest is a C lover and a python lover is there any parts of geas that don't require tons of performance jamest: no that would be easier to maintain in python we are already at the point of taking 3 to 5 seconds to search 1000 records jamest: ease of maintainance is not a question of language IMHO even at startup (the parser runs once at startup right?) it's a question of how you code so none of the runtime stuff can go into python geas is hard to read IMHO and I like C jamest: true, but that's not because of C :) jamest: thats not because of c jamest: you tried in last 8 weeks? no I haven't jamest: i think we made it better already i noticed you guys are working hard on it geas should be compeletely restructured in another few months that would rock methods is the next big one then making an api for the GUI interface to eliminate corba requirement then multiple db's actually it will be a part-by-part rewrite imho we already restructured the db code in part but it needs more work yes exactly did you get rid of the mysql_foo(), pgsql_foo() stuff? yes no Action: jamest does a happy dance except for one call :) that was a nightmare IMHO that initializes the db specific stuff i did that months ago that's right can geas support multiple connections to different DBs not yet but i have to add that it is not the final version of db connection but its a few days work to make that happen the structure is in place maybe I need to get over my geas source fears and look at it again soon :) Action: reinhard is still thinking of gedi jamest: look at src/datamonitor/datamonitor.c for an example of how i like readable code pwd jamest: both mysql and postgresql code gets compiled when you build the server rightnow what the? s/gets/can get/ what's all these lines enclosed by /* */ for? :) where all over the code jamest: lol they kinda remind me of comments :) neilt: so what is your opinion about .l .y rewrite? reinhard: excellent if you have the time and it does not drag out over several weeks can we talk about methods for a bit? neilt: ok what about following we need to strip out all of the stuff we dont really use i do rewrite in new files when you two are done talking lex/bison and simplify, simplify, simplify and then simplify a little more neilt: agree (like PUBLIC, PRIVATE, ...) i do rewrite in new files and you can look at them cool before i activate them jamest: ues yes ok jamest: ready for methods talk :) :) how exactly do you see methods in geas actually being used reinhard: IMHO everything in geas should work 100% or be pulled out I can explain gnuef triggers a bit first neilt: agree 101% if we need to add it back, then we do it when we are ready jamest: sure neilt: geas is full of semi-implemented stuff which i HATE reinhard: exactly triggers in gnuef can be attached to things like entries, buttons, and will be callable from a runTrigger methods they are executed on events like a post-change event that is attached to a field field = entry right now we have a list of events VALIDTRIGGERS = { 'PRE-FOCUSOUT': 'Pre-FocusOut', 'POST-FOCUSOUT': 'Post-FocusOut', 'PRE-FOCUSIN': 'Pre-FocusIn', 'POST-FOCUSIN': 'Post-FocusIn', 'PRE-COMMIT': 'Pre-Commit', 'POST-COMMIT': 'Post-Commit', 'POST-QUERY': 'Post-Query', 'ON-SWITCH': 'On-Switch', 'PRE-CHANGE': 'Pre-Change', 'POST-CHANGE': 'Post-Change', 'ON-NEWRECORD': 'On-NewRecord' } am I still here? yes yes cool ok, continuing jamest: can the PRE* triggers forbid to do something that is the idea right now it's a kludge like can PRE-FOCUSOUT say in a return value "no the focus may not go out now" that involves raising an exception that gnuef has to do the right thing with ok but that is the exact purpose of the pre- to stop things figured that :) now, triggers are being redone as of, um, today since the new dbdrivers broke a lot of stuff in my nasty triggers that relied in gnuef internals :) are trigger language sucks are = our so at LWE we decided to recode to make easy for business users and hide the internals if you look in cvs at your trigger language != python ? gnue-common/doc/TriggerSpecifications.txt currently it is python however I have no desire to support only python as the perl die-hards will want perl, the scheme people will want scheme, etc, etc so I want to do like we did with db support language plugins? yes so far how does this compare to geas triggers? jamest: i think i know where you're going at... very similar we want different languages with priority on python and we need to reimplement yip this seems like a mojor item for gnue-common so 3 similarities :) major if we can work from same page and end up using same code base in a pure python solution we have issues interfacing with things like scheme jamest: however some things are different but I figure everything ties to C especionally the namespace in which the trigger code lives namespaces are a nightmare but i don't know if that's a problem or not one thing I'm very tempted to do in our triggers is in the doc I presented earlier triggers are events right? otoh the namespaces shouldn't be too different chillywilly: yes if we want to download triggers from geas into forms so that in a form if I want the value of the current first_name entry in the block named foo I'd put :foo.first_name so that :foo.first_name = :bar.customer_name would set first_name to the value of the customer_name in the bar block and that :bar.customer_name = :foo.first_name + " " + :foo.last_name would do the opposite which would require a pre-processing pass prior to trigger compilation that would do the right thing for the specific trigger langauge (python, scheme, list, c, logo, C#) but this gets fugly (doesn't it always :) so are we still close? jamest: i worry about downloadable triggers here geas will define method code like customer.customer_name = foo.first_name + " " + foo.last_name and customer and foo are real python objects in fact corba objects there is no such thing like a block in geas so how will downloading these triggers into forms work ? geas objects will become gnuef datasources so they are the same thing in most cases IMHO o k as for the :foo.bar notation Action: reinhard doesn't know forms too much I see the preprocessor replacing it with foo.bar in the case above but if the languge was C it might look way different ah ok which is where it would get real fugly we also talked about adding convience functions so that the trigger/method could do sum(foo.quantity) to get the sum of all the quantity fields currently loaded into memory rather than make the business coder write the loop manually trying to make the 80% cases very easy to code Action: jamest hopes he didn't scare everyone off jamest: looks like you are _way_ ahead, copared to geas huh? the code for the method i currently try to make work in geas is this is the new design that is replacing the old one in gnuef return "helloworld" I'm working out the design right now and would love to share code base triggers in forms are ahead of that however they don't do reutrn values jamest: i am all for sharing code let me tell you my thoughts we have some convience stuff, a custom namespace, and basic exception handling please do * if we want to get multi language i think the core of the method/trigger handling must be written in C * i am not sure if i like the preprocessor as it will have to be language dependant and could make implementing new language drivers very hard * i agree that we need exception handling -- does --- mean you are done? yes :) ah ok, one 1 I agree (almost) the one thing I'd be tempted to code in python is the preprocessor (if it exists) as string handling is much easier in python IMHO on #2 I see either with or without it's going to suck if you wanna share code why noit use CORBA it is suposed to glue heterogenious softwaretogether as if we don't have a preprocessor then you end up writting triggers that look like getField('foo') and each language would have to be coded differently a simple replcement of :object.field with the language specific getField method could be put in a table going beyond that to some of the convenience functoins is where it gets fugly table = a in memory table as part of the driver jamest: i would have to think about that i get the idea of course each languages driver could define the conv functions not sure if i like the fact that a c program calls a python script to parse a scheme code and we could use the preprocessor (pp) for simple object substitution :) I see it as a startup hit in performance hi gus guys but I don't see it as a major issue as I'd write the pp with the C interface included jamest: i mean that wrt dependencies, not performance we're already talking python interp in geas as the primary trigger lang yeah primary but not obligatory but if a simple C pp would would then I'm cool with that too nevermind acutally that's a detail compared with the plan to share code on triggers/methods i'm sure we will work it out if the other things work :) yes, its almost a non issue as it's easily replacable :) yes could you define an api you would like to see I'd like to keep the API simple in our new language abstraction library? yes a pass/fail return system possibly as I'm not sure where we'd use return values and if there are a few cases they are needed we'd could use a namespace we need return values we do? we = geas can you give example as we were trying to think of one last week not for triggers for business methods like we have a business method customer.get_beautiful_address if you think of it as an object you need return values which returns a string consisting of name, street, country etc nicely formatted, maybe country dependent Action: jamest is a little concerned about the typecasting from various languages that could be used to implement a trigger you could then use the string in a report or so jamest: yes andrew was, too hmmmm that's why his version of methods only supports datatype string :) :) Action: jamest was about to suggest that as the first baby step i think about methods like choosen_vendor = item.best_vendor (date delivery); choosen_vendor is of course of type "object" :) i like it too ra3vat: thanks i was starting to feel ugly ;) starting to heheh huh? like what? jamest: methods as reinhard sees them :) ah hmmmm jamest: you would agree that we don't need much more in the api than gboolean call_method (gchar *name, ...); where ... are the parameters ? um lemme think for a sec aren't types irrelevant is using an OO IPC mechanism though as the OO IPC mecnahism gives you portable types not for what we're doing here as I have very little desire to make a CORBA style system a requirement for trigger support a simple C API optionally wrapped by CORBA seems doable later all, i have to go, will check the log later tonight neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.70.115.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: bbl - on and off today reinhard: i think we may want a be more be = bit yes? you are not going to use the GEAS CORBA interface? prepMethod.....pp the method and byte compiles it if needed (called once at method load) to call methods in your triggers chillywilly: for methods on the geas server yes, for 2 tier apps no jamest: i think this should be done automagically at first call of method getMethod.....dunno about this but how do we flag methods for possible download what are you downloading? good point on the prepMethod also we need to think about designer in this i assume we'd want designer to get the raw method text somehow jamest: agree on getMethod and be able to recompile the changes for the debug run Action: chillywilly is lost.... jamest: but not sure if that is part of the method calling library the getMethod could be completely different for GEAS and for forms like forms methods are in the xml file geas methods are (now) in seperate files somewhere in the gcd directory tree why does forms need it's own methods? to support 2 tier? chillywilly: yes and forms will eventually download geas methods and execute them locally for example for validation of entry why does it need to download them? makes no sense performance you remotely call th objedcts method but it happens in the server the server has to handke executing th methos imagine you are working over a slow network connection the forms client could download all validation methods why would you use enterprise softwrae over a slow network connection you can fill out all form it would be on the conpany PAN er, LAN chillywilly: sales rep w/ laptop and handy for example jamest: please interrupt when i'm talking crap back thi sis how it happens, imho forms -> method() -> geas -> methods (possibly its own server) reading log it was actually jamest's idea but i liked it and that's why i go for it :) you astill have to download all thses methods and f it is n the forms thing you have no way of playing with biz objects you are tighly coupling methods to forms bad design delegation is always better chillywilly: not sure if i explained well chillywilly: lets say I have a form of items on a PO now at the bottom of the form I have a $ total there is no reason the user should have to wait on the geas server to total the values displayed on their screen to fill in the total block true and if I have a room full of data entry operators taking order there is no need to subject the geas server to such a menial task but you got the data form the object already silly objects now it is justa forms thing you have to access the databse and/or geas at some point don't you? yes, but each network access increases traffic and delays GEAS doe snot do calculations right now we're trying to provide the option to offload work from the server chillywilly: not yet but that is a main reason to have geas at all imho yes I knwo it will do stuf in methods and I still need the stuff in 2 tier in which case geas isn't even in the loop and no I won't get rid of 2 tier that doe snot mean you should squish GEAS into a 2 tier way, imho :) what am I squashing? i have not made one single request to limit geas functionality in doing this that I recall you wann implements methods in the forms that's fine but whrn using GEAS you have to let GEAS do its job um, i am letting geas do it's job why would you downnload GEAS methods inot forms then? GEAS knows about the objects and how to manipulate them so you have the option to run them locally for things like input validation see what I am saying you are breaking our n-tier designt hen why? the download is optional low coupling high cohesion if the client doesn't want the triggers, or can't support them, or geas doesn't want to give them up then geas is fine to run them but then you start implementing th esame thing that are in GEAS to do GEAS things we're talking simple stuff that is optionally downloaded no desire to reimplement geas on the client side anyway i am 100% cool with common code base for language abstraction and for db abstraction too btw both i think should be done in c yea how do you glue those togerther though? jamest: i think we should make another directory for common c stuff doesn't libgda have a CORBA interface anyway? seperate from gnue-common? not sure if normal autoconf/automake structure works well with what is now there in gnue-common not sure either libgda has a CORBA interface libgda uses CORBA internally you can't really interface libgda via CORBA directly libgda works serverlib - corba - clientlib - application and the clientlib does a lot of things gnome-db does not use a CORBA interface to it? which you would loose if you interfaced via corba directly no gnome-db uses the client library libgda-client iirc well that limits clients to C then right? (99.9% positive) no there are python and perl bindings for that client lib and c++ bindings welll why do they use CIRBA at all? CORBA hold on to make it possible to have client and server on different machines they just absatrcted the CORBA interface I see now jamest: on gnue-common or not i would also like to build those libraries well I am saying if you wann share code we could use CORAB couldn't we? CORBA language abstraction and especially db abstraction in a manner that they are usable for other projects then it wouldn't matter what langauge you use for the client which means it should compile standalone with own configure.in etc at least when we reach a state where it's usable reinhard: gnue-common is like that now gnue-common provides (for the python side) yes but can C code call it easily? an db abstration lib, a app framework that provdes built in debuging support, profiling support, a CLI argument system jamest: but you can't just take out db abstraction easily, if you only want to use that for another poject project if you understand what i mean does no one see how easily we could glue these things together with CORBA, SOAP, etc. an XML parser system (supporting obsolete tags system), a config file system GEAS want to talk to postges we send a remote request to GNUe common it loads the postgres driver voila yes, we could glue them together but if people think python is too slow for this work ok so then do it in C then people will freak on CORBA overhead i see what you mean, the database abs system can stand alone yip but the setup.py in there now doesn't install it seperately jamest: yes you know we have to own own libgda it then becomes a project in itself if we wanna do it the right way gedi could become something like a glib for db abstraction ;) imho and 100's of projects could use it hehe gedi could be a better lingda world domination chillywilly: agree yes gnue-common is like glib in a way, it provides a common set of pieces that work together to build an app (if only it was documented better :) :) seems to me gnue-common could use a diet like brak off the db stuff break ;) so we can share anyway, if we did our own db thing would everyone agree to use it if we do it right, why not right == not 100 dependencies like libgda well I would hope so :) right == no CORBA bloating like libgda Action: chillywilly looks at libgda just for kicks right == tons of language bindings right == stable right == well documented wow i am even thinking about some additional gains libgda does have a lot o' gnome dependencies for example a gedi stack which means we have a db abstraction library with an api why fo they need to depend on libesd woohoo, my db drivers can play sound!!! :P we have a library which provides the same api, does caching and then builds on the abstraction library somone mentioned swig to me about providing langauge bindings for some project they were doing we have another library with again the same api which logs all requests and then passes requests down to the caching library :) Action: chillywilly tries to recall btw chillywilly did you look at size of gnue-common? no I am tryin not to criticize just saying we should ahre db stuff you said she needed a diet well it was justa metaphor ah not that it is a fat ass slob like libgda the db drivers are arround 5k each libgdk-pixbuf hmmm jamest: any news in geas compiling war? why do you need that in a frggin db layer chillywilly: this is why i unsubscribed from gnome-db list sheesh linbgda has stupid dependencies hehe they went insane wrt dependencies reinhard: whoops, got involved in the talk here I see and dependencies are the thing that kill every gnome project yea look at gnucash :) what caus e they built the desktop first imho some report was written that they need 60 libraries you guys act like 50+ dependencies are a bad thing :) ah yes are they still using GtkObject? oh yea they are xlibs dependency ugh wrt doing gedi right woohoo right == portable my libgda can draw windows too! :) portable == runs on gnu, solaris, and osx with configure; make; make install :) jamest: I didn't mean to be so critical, I'm sorry wrt to that tiggers/methods discussion chillywilly: blame it on the moon, it's full moon today ;) is it? ok I blame it on the moon :) :) no prob I'm just fairly amazed at what we've got gnue-common to do in the amount of space it requires jamest: please let me know whether or not you got geas compiled Action: jamest hugs his python interpreter i have to get some sleep reinhard: can do l8r all installing orbit l8r jamest: thanks bye reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. it is 2MB lol what? hehe byte compiled and with images look at the src dir ooooh I shoudl build it first duh if you don't built it then you can get sourcecode size aw fudge I need more packages bah huh? what? it sucks when you have to reinstall and setup everything you had before I need disutils setup.py barked at me :) ah you're running python 1.5.2 yea I tink so we're going to make 2.0 a requirement I'm 99% sure I might have to install it well I can install that one too it is in sid as it'll be std be the time gnue is ready and we've got workarrounds in the code for 1.5.2 shortcommings either way I'm covered it'll be nice to get rid of them pwd what are the short comings of 1.5.2? hehe /home/jamest :P some of it's libs are missing features that we had to code well I gotta get back to this other thing that I hate with a passion eek a few bugs IIRC they fixed them in 1.6 the missing features too is the latest and greates GPL friendly? yip all current releases are man I wanna write some python but python coders are weenies hehe you don't want to be a weenie do you? yes I wanna be a weenie man eeeew no I don't I hate design design sucks it is boooooooring I should just start hacking btw :) I really really wanna use GObject can we make ppl use glib from cvs? :P ? GObject is part of glib? yes and the best part did that replace the GTKObject? no X dependencies yip so maybe the stupid gnome dependencies will go away if people port to using GObject when they don't need GUI stuff gsatremer has done it already gstreamer how was the expo? when are they releasing it? you brought your honey with you? expo was different ya s/ya// it has been released I think I'm glad I went but wouldn't have been upset if I missed it 0.2 or something why? well, not alot of people there too commercial? really? the economy and all heh I seee most of it was commercial bummer there was small .org section yes lots of articles complaining about that not much there really we were not ready either they said ximian still had the hacker spirit why were you not ready? have a list of TODOs before the next one ah we need more demos ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip92.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. k we need swag heheh stickers, t-shirts, etc, etc PR bs as most people saw GNU Enterprise and though GNU they thought you were GNU? and the lack of possible free things on our booth made only the very curious approach ah need more free stuff I see yes, they thought we were GNU as we were right next to GNU booth (which was label Free Software Foundation) free stuff is good well.. depends who was the market at LWE I walys fo tot the tables that have the best free stuff :P a lot of small business owners, hackers someone said that the FSF boot had a sign GNU's Not Linux what was up with that? about the only thing the fsf booth people talked about was gnu/linux instead of linux but didn't you like finally meeting jc and derek face to face? huh? kinda sad that they gave about 0% coverage to the different projects under the GNU banner they sat there and corrected ppl? yip that was all they did that I could hear annoying how gay and sell books/tshrits/etc they are just getting a little too stupid about things if GNUe wasn't there we would have gotten no coverage nice enough people i guess and yes metting jcater and derek was nice someone told me there was this fraky drealock guy at the FSF booth freaky yip dtm did actually Action: Mr_You is use to dreadlocks not really freaky in the scared for your safety freaky he told me about the GNU's Not Linux thing too just freaky as in you don't see the dradlock look too much was he bothered by it? the GNU thing dunno I think he thought it wss stupid why did they do that? just to be hostile i don't know they have a valid point or did they do it just to say that UNIX == Linux sure but their method of deliverly sucked they probably wanted it to be GNU/Linux World Expo that is why rms didn't attend he was in town but wouldn't enter the building cause it was Linux World Expo and not GNU/Linux World Expo really? heh yip man so you did not get to meet the Stallman thats weird it is not weird RMS does not budge for anything its hard not to see it as an ego thing he's stubborna s hell well up here no cis prof I've talked has heard of rms or fsf at college so in that respect they have a valid gripe yea ppl wanna forget about GNU but you attact more flies with honey they're too radical chilly: ppl? who are these people? with their silly freedom talk Opne Source community for one thing I don't think thats the case at all Open so IMHO they should market their "product" then mention in passing "we also the ones that provided the framework that linux is based upon" so is RMS NEVER attending LWE ever again? just because people don't have the same gungho spirit or views doesn't mean no one cares I can't speak for that I don't see them changing their name maybe he just got mad after they denied his request since when did Linux Expo supposed to be rename GNU/Linux Expo *JUST* to promote GNU? Linux is generic.. like PC Linux is only the kernel per the media I dunno I am not as harcore about the naming thing lately hardcore right.. but Linux Expo isn't just about the kernel yea I wonder why Linus doesn't care about taking all the credit though if LWE was just about the kernel.. I could see calling it GNU/Linux WE eh? in fact, a more correct name would be Open-Source World Expo the whole point is that youc all it Linux when only talking about the kernel and that the system is a GNU system well net-bsd was there heheh I agree funny thing was gnome, ximian, and kde all had booths kde won the award for best something or rather that has got to hurt the ximian folks k nah KDe is mor epolished that can't deny that as they're sinking big bucks in gnome best open-source project or something see there's another naming clash open source was coined to pitch to businesses the KDE group has shown excellent progress chilly: how's that? never heard of that but they have also lost their way, a lot of them never speak of Free software either which is also a slap to GNU imho btw - all in all I'm not bagging the fsf booth guys open-source to me, means free source code with a useful license i just think they could've got their message across alot more pleasently yea, you only look at the practical you don't see th e moral imperative of freedom right? You do not care about the moral argument right? as a Linux magazine reporter (linuxToday?) asked for a gnu t-shirt as they didn't have funds to buy one they were told they could have free t-shirt if they changed name of magazine haha! chillywilly: I just asked a question.. how does the term open-source "coined to pitch to bbusiness"? that's just being mean i would have personally given them the tshirt they asked them to listen to why fsf felt the way they did it is the whole point and why Bruce Perens did it and ask for a free write-up of the issue in the magazine if they could find the space you've lost me created the term Open Source founded the OSI etc. btw - i need to get to work :) bbl cya well don't answer the question then who? chilly answer what? ah, nevermind bbl to explain why the term "open-source" was "coined to pitch to business".. that needs explanation.. but I'm probably wasting my time because businesses do not like it when you talk about giving the users freedom they tend to be very conservative what business? which is just the way things are in general be more specific :-((((( dude.. nm.. this is lame look at ESR's latest thing what? you get a job in the real world and talk to me you learn how to treat ppl decently and debate and then you can talk to me you confuse the hell out of me not being specific does that require for you to insult me? how did I insult you? I found that prior ststement a bit offensive Action: chillywilly is away: dinner it is valid my point being, developers and users are two different things businesses and software companies are two different things when discussing this type of topic its very frustrating to not specify which you are discusing because users do not write software sorry I offended you chilly ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.113) left irc: [x]chat Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:14:33) I'll live ;) infoworld.com has a coupel recent articles about open-source software deployment (recent) just saying that (and not talking about users and developers) open source was made to be able to pitch the ideas to business better as they are NOT susceptible to change they do not like to change it and the open source/free software wasy is radically different, imho than how things are normally done not very many companies would open their source easily SOFTWARE COMPANIES?? if at all software companies opening source code and businesses using open-source software are two different things.. even other companies that right software interbally to run their business (even though that may not make sense) well take for instance this place I applied for recently s/for/at they sell stuff out of their catalogue that is a software company.. even tho its internal so they are not a software house but they need web apps, etc. to allow their customers to purchase things online software is a means to their end ($) so ir wouldn't matter if they opne sourced it or not other than to have an edge on their competition thats debatable.. but I still think the ehtical thing to do would be to use Free software and contribute to it so that everyone has an equal foot in the door but they're not ginna buy that more then likely I am realistic too ;) I will probably have to do some things that I do not like most companies that write internal software have to have a huge need to rewrite or scrap the current work but if I get the chance to work of Free software for a living I will jump at that chance yea I ma not as much of a zealot, but I do support Free software when and where I can :P sure, so do I.. I am not giving up either though as I still think the world we see the light eventaully thats too optimistic.. I just hope the decision makers see the light which you may have meant hi guys well I am optimistic hey dtm that's just the way I am jamest: i had no idea you attended lwce jamest: you dork heheh most users care less.. they'l just buy the next upgrade when *they* need it jamest: i knew only of derek hi dtm chillywilly: high dtm: you instroduced yourself on tues jamest: wait a minute -- were you the one there iwth your wife? jamest: i may be heavily confused well then i am. give the man a cigar shhEEEssh :) Mr_You: true, but when it starts to directly effect them (through passport, service fees, dranconian DMCA laws, etc.) I would hope they would then finally care for once jamest: ok it's coz i came in here not rememebering if it was you or another j-guy, and someone told me it was the other j-guy ;) users aren't smart enough to know they are affected :) technically smart Mr_You: true...it is not a simple thing but I like to wake people up whenever I can :P at least turn them onto the ideas some bite good luck.. I hate discussing computers with others others don't hehe its boring well this is more a philosophical thing and they always think I mean software should be $0, that's always fun oh and they think I am a communist of course Action: dtm hoses chillywilly down dtm: I'm not on fire and its to the point now that when I get a new job, I usually don't interrupt majority of the misinformed conversations when I first join a job cause they don't like being corrected by the new guy :P Mr_You: oh yea they understand after 4 months you have to wi therir trust you can't go in there acting like some loonie demanding they release their source ;) I guess.. pretty insecure I guess or they use open source software no I'm talking about coworker joe blow talking/asking the other coworker about something and they are totally wrong about what they are saying .. (lets say IP routing for exaomple) oooooh hehe they don't like that either specially being a contractor.. full-timers don't like to see a contractor showing the up on the first day haha i take after a certain ancient philosopher who believed in 'facta non verba' -- deeds more than words time for a few krispee kreme donuts switching back to my previous banter, I deinfitely agree that RMS is unrealistic at times and that Free software is more of a gradual transition for people i will talk with people even beyond being blue in the face if that's what they really want, but not instead of action chilly: I think FSF should do more promoting useful software and secondarily promote the philosophy sure sometimes even just "seen and not heard" thats the natural way to do it Mr_You: they can go hand in hand dtm: sure, but balance seems way off right now FSF knows exactly how to compromise -- it's just harder for them than it is for some others and now they're copping out a bit more than usual Mr_You: I dunno they are more philosphy based though, but they could use reality check and promote the good things about Free software as it is good stuff the whole community is copping out, each faction in its own way if there is no software there is no philosophy RMS is just like any philosoher there are very good things to pull from his arguments but you cannot take them at 100% truth er chillywilly: they need to understand the inherent bias in alternate viewpoints -- they need to not only realize that there are alternate viewpoints and not only that some are valid and not only which ones are valid to which degree -- but they also need to be more gracious and humble like they have been in the past. to quit playing Chicken Little, and get back to being technically relevant in the forefront. maybe not truth someone else went ahead and bootstrapped an industry for free software _for_ them dtm - did the whole gnu/linux push at the booth get to you at all? things like VA and Redhat are the first jobs some of them had doing anything they cared about hehe jamest: i got absolutely none of it. only "normal" average people were running the booth when i was there ah, ok See -- the "gnu/linux" thing is similar to vegetarianism or alcohol when i was running the booth, some jackass came up and put champagne and cups on our table oooo, alcoholic vegeratians, that's a tough group to hang with hehe I happen to think that alcohol is and is directly related to some of the worst things in the entire world I agree I personally would rather drink urine than alcohol and I am _not_ joking I do have an occasional beer i would decline it for absolutely any purpose, even ceremonial or religious any amount of it in any context whatsoever I love beer and wine complete permanent total lifetime boycott that's extreme though however i do absolutely _NOTHING_ to make other people feel that belief unless they really want to and they'll have to pull it outta me Action: chillywilly ses where this is going brb donuts sees even mmmmmmmmmmm, donuts i actually complained to myself and my partner about the damned alcohol being there, and watched in a disconnected sickness while swarthy passersby took their fill however i made little or no moral value judgments on their lives and i said nothing to them i didn't even take the alcohol out of the booth i was in, in my own space coz i believe in freedom you are a christian though right dtm? chillywilly: yessir what denomination? if any and not an alcoholic vegeratian, right? Action: jamest runs there could have been Satan worshiping strippers in that building and i wouldn't have tried to do anything to stop it and might not even have vacated :) jamest: correct! ;) hehe and why didn't i do these things? stripers at LWE i didn't see that booth :( because i dont believe in even politely violating anyone else's freedom there's no way an alcohol drinker is completely unaware of the concept of someone who doesn't drink it, and isn't sufficiently aware of its effects. that's the nature of the beast -- to have a mood- or mind-altering effect but if it is against god don't you want people to be saved? there's no reason for me to tell them this chillywilly: just because something doesn't agree with me, doesn't mean it's against me or God there is middle ground you read the bible? and furthermore there is the likelihood that anyone would listen, given any particular format drinking in excess is against god yeah i read the bible. i was pulled out of a den of lions :) me too yessir man i happen to enjoy watch my carbon based playthings destroy themselves once in a while via drugs, sex, alcohol, etc, etc I wish I could remember that one verse given a civil environment, where 'civil' is defined as not directly violating anyone else's universal human rights, it is almost always better to be seen and not heard if one person noticed me _NOT_ drinking that crap and maybe wondered why, that's what i'm talking about jamest: er? Action: chillywilly thinks jamest ha s agod complex now :) not necessarily maybe I just think a deity put them all here for my ammusement I dunno , but for me it seems like we always go the right and just way in the end to think that my words and overt direct manipulation of their attention span is a testiment to God, FSF, freedom, etc -- is like playing God it just takes a looong while it involves making moral value judgments, of which i am not accurately capable coool soecies is on I cannot know that the other person who says "linux" or drinks a bit of alcohol, or who i see dancing with strippers, etc, is actually doing anything wrong. er species you are capable of listening to god's word and reading it it's not my job to get inside their head i cannot literally _change_ their minds the facts are there i tell them about fsf.org and gnu.org and all the wondrous information therein i write it on their flyers wwe are to make desciples of every man it is our purpose and this includes saying what is wrong and right for someone to do as god does have laws and rules i answer their questions, i listen to their story and tell them how what they've already done could fit into our given structure chillywilly: if you think you can accurately interpret them all _and_ judge the moral value of another person's specific actions as they stand before you with a high enough degree of accuracy, and that you aren't afraid of the consequences of being wrong at it, ... well.. then you're an idiot. :) yes, I agree with you that the emphasis should be one of love, compassion, and acceptance and nto to concentrate on rediculing ppl and i am talking about on an unsolicited basis, mind you well thanks for calling me an idoit i didn't clal you an idiot, dumbass! I didn't state no such thing that's a giant open 'if' statement :) wll now you just called me a dumbass heheh yes i did, coz you are one :) huh? flagrantly misinterpreting my discourse to the smallest possible value judgment why doe severyone I debate with have to start being all mean it's not possible to accurately understand your fellow persoon by thinking that way, dan it's because you're ridiculously microjudgmental, dan I didn't do any such thing just talking no I am not woah dude if you're just talking, then go ahead with the smilies :) where;s this coming from a'ight i apologize if i'm totally misunderstanding your text you're jumping to some conclusions there I just agreed with you 9:39:20] yes, I agree with you that the emphasis should be one of love, compassion, and acceptance and nto to concentrate on rediculing ppl if you're totally just warping the meaning of your words by not including smilies and such, then that's different I'm just tryin to keep up however what i've said does stand and it does fairly explain why people keep getting irritated around here heheh man I cannot talk with anyone without them getting all mad guess I suck alright firs tof all I'll just apologize for my human and personal biases in general even if i'm unaware at the moment I dunno why you got so mad though for once you're not blatantly flaming I'm not fighting with you I dunno why you think I am and the issues are getting blurred here for once? you've built up a lot of community momentum of being a fighter you keep slingin mud at me and you have prejudges me now I always fight the good fight not to fight in itself that's not good in fact I am agreeing with you ok i need to reboot my head. I have been for the past couple minutes hehe relax guys here have a beer but I understand your hostility is form previous encounters Action: jamest runs again I am sorry jamest: huhuhuh. btw - i don't drink either just couldn't resist jamest: h0h0 Action: chillywilly hasn't drank anything in so long he annot remember chillywilly: right ok when the last time was i need to chill out before talking about issues which are linked closely enough to personal suffering at the moment i need to scrub my pool aaaah coz the pool needs scrubbing! and it is I who shall scrub it coz you know why? if I dont, then NOBODY will! for it is you that will do the scubbing lol the scrubbing of the pool shall be done by only me thou shalt crub thy pool scrub so shall it be with many of the household and lifestyle issues man, you sound kinda like mojo jojo from the powerpuff girls yep my roommate is an PPG addict s/an/a/ jamest: rofl PPg? HE BOUGHT THEIR DVD'S PPG even oh power puff but he wont record it on tv with a vcr!!! goiyles skajf;qiwej; ppg is cool Action: chillywilly thinks dtm is a bit hyper ok anyway ... now that everyone knows my underlying strategy of how to relate my values to an uninitiated public... uh... for whatever that's worth.. the pool needs my attention chillywilly: yes i am! @_)@!% and i'm sorry for my bias! i shall redirect it to /dev/null until it is gone in the short term, before returning to #gnuenterprise no offense taken ya otherwise I'l cry uhhhhh today has NOT been fun :'( why? i have had much difficulty in the general spanse and sum of my earthly endeavors for quite some time i.e. life's been hard heh h0h0 tell me about it life's hard all over dude and here i am disgracing myself by blowing it out in front of my palz but as long as you have th lord with you, you're taken care of gotta ease it out slow-like! ;) I know I take some stuff out on ppl too my deal is absolutely not in whether i have faith... i just lost my faith in my own understanding of how my faith will manifest i dont know what i'm doing from day to day anymore :( don't worry dtm like, as in, often not knowing if something's going to get much worse or a bit better daily we're with you :) hang in there i got family dropping in and out, people going psycho for absolutely no reason other than that they think their life is especially harder than ANYONE else's so they're entitled to complete the cycle of abuse on others around them people being friggin stoopid ah things of this nature and effect I see and i thank you for your input daniel-san sure, anytime streeeeessssssss for some reason selfish people have really been attracted to me lately i have always been so totally aware of the personality of my biblical visionary counterpart, whether i want to or not Mr_You: eh? Mr_You: HAHAHAAH it's a magical phenomenon, isn't it?!?! Mr_You: they jsut LUB you dont they? attracted the crud is not fun though e, attracting ppl just like to poo poo all over me my irish "friend" turned out to be a fraud.. ;) not really really? why? what's the good word? ppl tend to lie a lot online you met her online right? well 5+ years on IRC I've never gotten personal with any girl.. and I decided to give this a shot and she was the typical IRC slut (in the end) Action: chillywilly sends a data fecth command down his memory bus in my head k i have this neat feature where my extreme self awareness and sense of identity and pursuit of purpose, attracts people who have an extreme deficit in it yet are so expertly high functioning they can hide it even from my super high-tech ultra intense personality scanners not a slut in the sexual sense but in the emotional sense hmmm in other words -- people with borderline personality defects want me to fill in their BLACK HOLE an emotional slut dtm: hehe Mr_You: bummer :( :( :( what does that exactly mena? chillywilly: yeah i can point you at the DSM-IV for more info ;-> Action: chillywilly is a little thick at times dtm: wasssat? chillywilly: people who have a lack of a sense of identity (really low self esteem, etc) see mine and they WANT IT and they suck it from me like a parasite and i'm not talking about your run of the mill "neediness" i'm talking about brilliantly and expertly crafting a deep long term evolving psychological pit that is almost impossible for me to escape literally holding themselves hostage dtm wll I will ABC your GHT if you keep SDEing my TRF k hey you know what? i dont know what any of that means, but one of those acronyms is the initials of one of the people in question! you're in cahoots, aren'tcha dan!? I KNEW IT LIES Action: dtm consults Dillon you speak eloquntly you know man, I feel lucky.. sorry tm just rolls right off the tongue there dtm: you do any writing? cause I think you would be good at it dillon just wants a chew and his hedgehog doll, but i know what that means! chillywilly: well stanx! chillywilly: i have written a bit mostly all this online diatribe which goes straight in and out of others' heads :) Action: chillywilly is too lost now i had some of my writing read live on a 1-800-weirdos broadcast lol last night i dreamt that someone was reading it who am I in cahoots with? with my aggressors! no way you're in leagues with them! I'll kick their as ass you're plotting my destruction! Action: dtm makes his time Action: dtm blows up the ship you can't have my ice cream bar!! roflmao ;lkwqmo;iadj; ren and stimpy rule ummmmmm so just let it all out man it is at least entertaining for us :P Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jamest!jamest@fh-dialup-202033.flinthills.com: The doctor is in Action: dtm goes out to the pool -- riding, not hitchiking any more!!!!! yes that's a fact Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jamest!jamest@fh-dialup-202033.flinthills.com: www.gnue.org h0h0 /topic http://gnuenterprise.org for the _real_ fans -- http://gnue.org for the lazy ones Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch in with the good out with the bad so dtm tell us about your childhood how was your relationship with your mother? jamest: you need to change the topic to psychotherapy 101 Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jamest!jamest@fh-dialup-202033.flinthills.com: http://gnuenterprise.org for the _real_ fans -- http://gnue.org for the lazy ones i now live iwth my mother! hahahaha WE'RE JUST FINE hehe jamest *har* dear oh dear, this cannot be... ok for REAL pool time you gusy can look at my pool pics on http://mmmgood.net/pics/corte_rivera_house someone is competing with andr* for being weirdest in the channel? dtm: really? chillywilly: I'd use yours but we'd probably fill up too fast huh? your topic jamest: ooooh duh dtm has by far one that title he is much more vernose yes and expressive verbose quite eloquent s/one/won and I have won the worst typist title woohoo! yes i do not know what i can win derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. masta!!! masta!!!! masta of disaster masta of disasta ajmitch: most sheep within a 50 mile radius of keyboard? hi chillywilly jamest: i suppose, there will be a few farms within 50miles of the city (except none to the east) derek: you are dasta of disasta da masta I mean or is it goats in NZ? nope i don't recall now that I can't give andrew crap all the time hey jamest Nick change: ajmitch -> andrewm muahaha Nick change: andrewm -> ajmitch ack jamest: there are plenty of 'sheep' in NZ get away! "sheep" even for all intents and purposes thats close enough to a goat for someone on an island in the southern hemisphere derek: you missed dtm daily freak out dtm's Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy later all, time to do study bah stduy is for the weak study even you should just KNOW it dang where's my guitar pic ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip92.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: [x]chat Mr_You: you a spare guitar pic? you want one? dtm freak out? not really uneless I missed something derek: he was just blowing off some steam understandable chillywilly (danielb@d131.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d131.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: Connection reset by peer derek: hi derek: what is your status, sir dead you know what i dearly love most about irc/ ? the hot babes it attracts? i love it when newbz jump in a channel, make some global demand, irate rant, or vague request and then disappear the public logging of everything you say? and what makes it BESTEST OF ALL is this part (and i paraphrase here): hello? is anybody there? can someone help me? guess not! i guess everyone in this channel is dead! anyone awake/alive? dtm: that sounds like something i say in #debian regularly and then their attention span eclipses at a grand total of about 30-90 seconds lol they make a blanket judgment as to the cultural integrity of the channel, and leave. their precious, precious attention span completely spent... having been copiously exhausted under the most valiant attempts at forcing someone else to save their ass or think for them. "HOW DO I SPELL 'ls'?!?!?" rm -rf / thanks! oops!! i meant to type that in the other window thingie! i was wondering that myself what's the number for 911?! oh wait i found it in the yellow pages um, that ls command keeps complaining about things like rm: cannot remove directory `//lost+found': Permission denied derek: were you the one trying to get me to antagonize #debian? any ideas? jamest: yes, I have ideas. :-I dtm: not me probably chilly i have antagozined them in the past out of frustration jcater was purely classic in his antagonization derek: how so? did I miss some good abuse? yes you did last week he was in there asking hideously funny questions no last week I was getting all the abuse I could stand posing as an microsoft luser that recently installed debian :) cool dare I ask why? HAHA is there much of a phenomenon of true M$ lusers installing Debian spontaneously by themselves? i usually see that with Mandrake or Redhat. and i also recommend that they use Mandrake :) um he was in onery mood i suppose? hee hee 3 days over holiday weekend and friggin 500 messages this has got to stop geeez most pretty relevant only 'lists' not extremely relevant are local LUG list and wxWindows list but somehow i end up responding to a lot of LUG mail so its probably relevant some how :) haha.. crowd gathered to check out a shootout neighbors and such dtm was right.. it was alcohol ;-) neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.66.99.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hello all hey neilt figures you drop in as im leaving :) one quick questin you need to respond to email to swiss publisher yip neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.66.99.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: dtm: when i get around to downloading my camera i have a shot of you working the fsf booth btw: what happened to you the rest of the week? i was hoping to meet with you longer than hand shake :( Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: night derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by ChanServ!s@ChanServ: GNU Enterprise : http://www.gnue.org [If no one is home email info@gnue.org] derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ chillywilly (danielb@d186.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. heheheheheh. Heh. Heh. Heh. Heh. Heh.... uhhhh.... heh ehehhe heheh. er? Action: chillywilly looks at dtm all funny like i do have an mp3 and transcript of my poem i wrote for 1-800-weirdos for your perusal the mp3 is about 30mins, 19MB h0h0 the poem is shorter ok why were you laughin before? you're welcome to any, all, or none just because! o k is da masta still here? derek is da masta, eh? yip is he the one with the plan? always has been no he's the on who beats the coders ;) great! does he code ? j/k yes you will accept your dcc and you will like it! or at least you will _LEARN_ to accept it! that's better! he's out project coordinator guy...althought lately he's been lacking in his mastaly duties and not being so harsh on us ;) oops that's unacceptable forget I said that so does he not code at all? yes he does but he's not too much of a code slave mor elike a masta i see right sometimes I see his name on the commit list anyway I don't wan atalk about him i see! why don't ya ask him yourslef he's not important right now. Action: chillywilly nudges derek so is anybody in gnue interested in groupware? office suites etc grouware definitely stupid stuff like that office suites doesn't really fit us but do they take a primary interest in it as in, understanding the minutia of obsoleting the establishment? our primary inerests are in business software as that's where this enterprise stuff flourishes accounting, supply chain, inventory, project management, e-commerce, CRM, ERP, etc. project management does include some groupware stuff imho yeah so i take that as a "no"? or perhaps i didn't specify enough i'm talking about counterparts for the likes of outlook and exchange derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net] so what do you think of the poems haven't read them yet exchange is an email server isn't it? we would love to have some groupware stuff and dcl I think it fits in exchange is The Thing That Should Not Be ya my sxchool just switched to exchange servers when they were using digital UNIX I still use that email addy as it is the only one I got right now you mean after replacing digital? they went all M$ neat liek the dolts they are they sound just really _NEAT_. lol there was an informant among them, yes? dunno a little bird? the UNIX admins thought it was stupid did they now/ ? one DEC box for a bunch of exchange server servers well, you have to plan for the future! and what if one goes down?! one DEC box HARDLY provides the reliability of two or more! \you knwo M$ is the standard or something they're a leader in the field we should all use M$ THEY **INNOVATE** exactly! you sound sarcastic, dan. is there a problem? are you jealous because you didn't thikn of it first? maybe.. ok i am. you found me ot out *gasp* i want there to be nano-robot clones of Bill Gates that can go inside my ear and just clean out everything that's wrong to find everything bad and get rid of it! replacing it with good, wholesome standards! btw "Bill Gates" is one of the dumbest names on earth Ever. that's like "Bob Jones". or "John Doe". except those guys are alright it's b.g. which is the dumb one heheh no offense if you know anyone named BJ or JD nope don't know anyone ok good sheesh what good is this asd daemon if it does not interleave sound heckifino bah humbug do you happen to know of a video conferencing app that tunnels only over http? ;) uuuuuuh nope well there the gnome one but I dunno about the tunneling i would prefer one on macos that's what my fray-end gots bah that would be the true test of an open standard! cross platformivity! that's strength. Action: chillywilly refuses to recommend any proprietary software ****strength beyond strength**** a panter tune right? pantera even YOU'RE WORKING FOR PERFECT MINDS, PERFECT BODIES, PERFECT NEIGHBORS I'M HELPING TO LEGALIZE DOPE IN YOUR PRISTINE STREETS AND I'M MAKING A FORTUNE yeah dan i think we can do it perfect neighbors is a goal not too lofty for my ambitions! we can make it! alright! Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch run for th hills!