is anybody here familiar with ibm's sash project? nope sukkaz!! yeah ok suck this :P commencing suckage, sir see, sash is an IDE for concurrent development of local binary GUI apps and web GUI apps all GPL so THERE! yay! Free software rules! Action: ajmitch runs around screaming ajmitch: hi there buddy i'm no buddy of yours, you're all out to get me, i know you are Action: chillywilly slaps ajmitch with a trout especially chillywilly there, he's actually an evil assassin employed by the world government mmmmwwahahahhaa you bet you sweet ass am i the only sane one around here? I'm coming to get ya watch your back better yet watch your computer too everyone hates me, everyone is out to get me, i think i'll go be a hermit now poor babt baby http://www.usecases.org :P bye i am leaving now BYE THEN Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy YOU'LL JUST MAKE ME COME AFTER YOU. kill him! Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch reinhard (rm@62.47.44.55) joined #gnuenterprise. duff (bdusauso@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. hi everybody ! hi ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.49) joined #gnuenterprise. hiya ra3vat hi hi chillywilly hi all howdy need to go bbl ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.49) left irc: [x]chat duff (bdusauso@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left irc: Client Exiting reinhard_ (rm@62.47.44.55) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard_ (rm@62.47.44.55) left #gnuenterprise. reinhard_ (rm@62.47.44.55) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard_ (rm@62.47.44.55) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. reinhard (rm@62.47.44.55) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Rafterman (tim@lister.sesgroup.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ariel (ariel@rm3-1056.dialup.tiscalinet.it) joined #gnuenterprise. ariel (ariel@rm3-1056.dialup.tiscalinet.it) left irc: [x]chat chillywilly (danielb@d186.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout for chillywilly[d186.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net] Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.65.107.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hello all hi neilt will be back in 30 min Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away reinhard: were we going to have a discussion regarding gcd files neilt: ok o later today? was this a question? yes you want a discussion or you want to know if i want a discussion? i thought a couple of days ago you had some comments we never discussed ah i remember that was bad wording from m me actually i was thinking about the __ -> _ issue and the other stuff we discussed then when i said i want to talk about gcd not the accounting gcd business objects then? nested modules etc ah that Action: rm-away is getting old yes that's still open we can discuss later ok, i will be on and off today ok let me know when you are ready ok its still holiday here and we have company jbailey (we-refuse-@fencepost.gnu.org) joined #gnuenterprise. anil (anil@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) joined #gnuenterprise. g'd morning all hello hi where can i find the tutorials to develop a client application for geas in C tutorials? hehe pick up any book on CORBA for C documentation or examples our idl files are in gnue/geas/idl examples of python and java are in /gnue/geas/examples no examples in C ?? nope, not that i am aware of we have standardized on python for client work we wrote some java test code to test interoperability of our server but its not really maintained we picked CORBA so that any language could be used for the client oh corba has succesfully kept me confused for some time. =) yeah, it has a way of doing that anil: so you will need to lookinto orbit-c bindings actually you should look at ORBit and omniORB with are both CORBA implementations they should have instructions for creating C clients and examples We use ORBit for the server but we think that omniORB is a better client ORB what is omniORB ? http://www.uk.research.att.com/omniORB/index.html Nick change: jbailey -> jbailey-msgme anil: did that help i am now looking at the tutorials of ORB and i shall later look at the java code in the examples that might help me anil: the IDL describes a standard API that can be used by any language as long as you have a CORBA to language mapping. so all clients interfacing with GEAS will work the same way you might also find some useful information in gnue/gnue-common/src/dbdrivers/geas this is the current forms driver written in python neilt: sorry not really back yet seems like it will take longer than i expected :( rm-away: ok ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip183.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Rafterman (tim@lister.sesgroup.net) left irc: [x]chat ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip183.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: [x]chat good day hello jamest so this is how you spend your holiday too eh? yes, sad is it now not :) ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.2) joined #gnuenterprise. hey ra3vat how goes the i18n stuff? hey jamest works for me Nick change: neilt -> neil-away and that is for both input and output support right? in UIwxpython yes and under windows too whoop! did it get checked into cvs? i did not try check to cvs as i had issue with paperwork issue? we have you on file ..... Dmitry Sorokin 2001-08-20 ARGH! ok, it's my second paperwork that arrived :) first one was lost neil-away: you here? jamest: i also had issue with reverse dns lookup did you get them resolved? also, this is true i18n right? it supports more than the russian patches? i need to prepare message to you, derek and describe what i did find if you remember we had discussion about encoding in xml header and derek was about to disagree to include it i should write to continue discussion what I did I'm not sure about full i18n support but it would helps anyway jamest: one question about to disagree.... i like the way you worded that :) what question? i can't even imagine how bad i'm working. just as i can :) wording some i18n setting will be uidriver specific i think that's unavoidable in most respects obviously we need some addition for UIwxpython in conf file i think btw - the UI system is being replaced but your stuff should carry forward ok where would be better to send message about i18n - maillist? that would be fine what was the major issues? i need couple of days to gather info from different machines and describe some thoughts and prepare all for cvs check in cool jbailey-msgme (we-refuse-@fencepost.gnu.org) left irc: leaving for about reverse dns lookup issue yes? i have two phone numbers to connect to my isp first gives me fast-easy-to-connect-dont-ever-think-about-reverse-dns-lookup-type-of-connection another reverse-dns-lookup-but-spend-the-rest-of-your-life-to-connect :) but i can try to use second way for it. it's not that bad really :) ok Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard hey reinhard Nick change: neil-away -> neilt where can I get the source files to libuuid e2fsprogs or something like that uh does that exist for solaris? :) reinhard: if you build from source it seems to work neilt: you relly here yes for a few minutes ok that answers my question:) maybe 20 ok good first question in the base_accounting module can you explain what trans_def and trans classes are for? trans_def defines all valid transactions that can occur neilt: where did you get uuid for mac os x e2fsprogs source reinhard: trans is a type for defining the actual transaction files in the package pwd can you give me an example for what trans_def would look like? jamest: ftp://download.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/e2fsprogs/e2fsprogs-1.19.tar.gz thanks reinhard: ok neilt: question INSERT INTO "base_acct__trans_def" (GEAS-SYS, code, account, debit_credit, name, active, abbrv) VALUES (GEAS-SYS, 01, '000000', 'D', 'Customer Invoice Transaction', 'T', 'CIT'); (GEAS-SYS, 02, '000000', 'D', 'Customer Invoice Adj Transaction', 'T', 'CIA'); (GEAS-SYS, 03, '000000', 'C', 'Customer Credit Transaction', 'T', 'CCT'); (GEAS-SYS, 04, '000000', 'C', 'Customer Payment Transaction', 'T', 'CPT'); (GEAS-SYS, 05, '000000', 'C', 'Customer Payment Adj Transaction', 'T', 'CPAT'); jamest: yes reinhard: i think this class needs to be refined we dont need code and abbrv and account number but i am undecided how it will be used hmmm... i think it is important to be able to look up transaction details by mneumonic you mean like if you look for an invoice, you search for "CIT" reinhard: not quite the ar module looks at CIT to find out how it should generate an invoice transaction jamest: non of them are me neilt: and what info will the ar module take from CIT? reinhard: the account number is the most important but also if is can and if it is debit or credit i think we might need both debit and credit account numbers but i have not thought thru how all of this will work neilt: AR can not take the account number from that trans_def class IMHO what i was trying to create is a way to define transactions that do not rely on the accounting system being installed because the account numbers will be different depending on customer or good sold that is the purpose of char extra1<15>; # defined by the subsystem char extra2<15>; # defined by the subsystem in the actual transaction file reinhard: but i would be happy to leave the account number out of the transaction file but i thought we talked about a simple system like this neilt: yes actually i am arguing that the account number _should_ be in the transaction file and it should not be in trans_def actually i am understanding what we want with trans and i don't understand what we need trans_def for reinhard: i think we need a way to define transaction codes so when they are all mixed together we can tell where they came from trans_def is just the master dictionary derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dont be confused by what is stored there right now derek can you test forms the cvs from the show doesn't work here reinhard: i think we want to be able to generate transactions without account numbers and the accounting system installed neilt: is this transaction code something like the next module is mapping transaction to account numbers in gl.gcd char source<25>; # source of the data # sales, ar, ap, etc. and i dont care if that is done in package or in accounting reinhard: yes except more specific ok think i understand jamest: you checked stuff in since the show though as it defines the type of ar transaction my copy works neilt: ok i have not checked in stuff IIRC jamest: let me checkout in a different directory and verify ok, please do Action: derek actually has a patch or two in my current tree neilt: second question derek: i sent outline, please review and let me know today if you can reinhard: yes why did we move line_type, line_status, header and detail into org module? so invoices and sales orders can be based on the same type for consistenancy but not be inherited i was not sure I would like this so i did not create a new file and new module neilt: will do jamest: slurping test copy now and just it someplace s/it/put it/ i am not sure if i like it either it will need to be moved if we agree to the concept ls maybe someday we should define how sales order, shipping and invoice work together jamest: dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/test/gnue/gnue-common$ ./setup.py devel usage: setup.py [global_opts] cmd1 [cmd1_opts] [cmd2 [cmd2_opts] ...] or: setup.py --help [cmd1 cmd2 ...] or: setup.py --help-commands or: setup.py cmd --help error: invalid command 'devel' (no module named 'distutils.command.devel') dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/test/gnue/gnue-common$ is that right? nope common doesnt need to be setup? only run that in gnuef ok not shipping, what is the word you use for the paper that goes with the goods? thats what i was thinking let me test now Action: derek is absent minded sometimes anyway neilt: i am tempted to forget all this stuff for the time being and concentrate on accounting for now reinhard: what ever works reinhard: packing slip is the paper that goes with goods reinhard: based on your comments i was tyring to make sales order, shipping and invoice all independent so i had assumed that to do this jamest: current cvs works for me we would have duplicate structures and copy the data when needed on which forms? that is the only way to make invoices not depend on sales order module sorry this was probably a misunderstanding i agree that invoices should not depend on sales invoices should be in sales jamest: i tried against contact_manager.gfd reinhard: not sure i agree with that from my current working branch as i knew it was good but it seems like others don't like that idea much states.gfd seemed to puke but i think thats because i dont have its tables setup they are all puking here what form were testing? but cvs status shows no altered files i can try to test that form states.gfd zipcode.gfd contact_manager.gfd helloworld2.gfd the button sample reinhard: i have to go, is that it for the time being? neilt: yes cool later all, bbl later on today neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.65.107.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: bbl - on and off today Action: reinhard things we have still some way to go hmmmm :) derek: pulling new, fresh copy DB000: File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/test/gnue/gnuef/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/dbdrivers/_dbsig/DBdriver.py", line 238, in _createResultSet DB000: raise GDataObjects.ConnectionError, err DB000: gnue.common.GDataObjects.ConnectionError: error 'ERROR: Attribute 'zip' not found DB000: ' in 'SELECT zip,state_code,city FROM zipcode WHERE (((1 = '2'))) ORDER BY state_code,city ' dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/test/gnue/gnuef/samples/zipcode$ is what i get on zipcode form but contact manager form works fine thats a table issue I'm getting python issues yes but its weird none the less i don't think the database error handlers survived the rewrite Action: derek just blew away cvs test branch jamest how do you do the status on cvs to see what is different as i have some patches to commit but dont want to commit all the changes i made to my samples just cvs status? bbl ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.2) left irc: Client Exiting cvs status will work i do cvs -q status | grep Status derek: you have a completely clean cvs checkout? cool i had a completely clean check out i wiped it i just did a status found the file i had changed it doesn't work for me and commited it jamest: what happens when you get a new cvs? same error i got one and it worked i even used hardcoded gfcvs instead of /usr/local/bin/gfcvs to verify that i was runnning the checkedout versionm what is the error DB000: File "/home/jamest/cvs/gnue/gnuef/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GDataObjects.py", line 352, in insertRecord DB000: self._cachedRecords.insert(self._currentRecord, self._createEmptyRecord()) DB000: File "/home/jamest/cvs/gnue/gnuef/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/dbdrivers/empty/DBdriver.py", line 107, in _createEmptyRecord DB000: return self._recordSetClass(self, masterRecordSet=masterRecordSet) DB000: TypeError: unexpected keyword argument: masterRecordSet please look at following file what are you doing? gnue-common/dbdrivers/empty/DBdriver.py and tell me if you have return self._recordSetClass(self, masterRecordSet=masterRecordSet) in that file sigh i just did an update but will look no, look in your updated file I'm trying to run any form wtf? states now works but helloworld2.gfd does not please try that the button form does not work either i do not have that line in my NON UPDATED copy what about the updated copy? am updating now remember my local copy did not have master detail working properly ah ok as i didnt grab that 'last update' before going back to hotel but i did co fresh cvs and it worked so let me run this update and check real quick # Create an empty record def _createEmptyRecord(self, masterRecordSet=None): return self._recordSetClass(self, masterRecordSet=masterRecordSet) does exist now going to check some forms run the button/forms/form.gfd sample i get that error now ok, cool Action: derek wonders why inflicting errors on me is cool :) ok contact_manager.gfd does fire up cause it lets me know it's safe to patch it though appears to be broken in other ways so i would say that basically you dun broked non data aware forms :) on accident of course they are fixed in my copy i just wanted to make sure the error was repeatable ok master detail is broken now though :( huh contact_manager.gfd fires up and the master data comes up pwd but none of the detail records come up you be around later? i have yardwork i must do then i will be back yes Nick change: derek -> dnYardWork ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.34) joined #gnuenterprise. anil (anil@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) left irc: Client Exiting jamest: you here? yip brb reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.66.169.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ nickr (nick@63.163.68.113) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt: you here? rofl yes ok first status report of flex bison anyone want to critique my intro to an article derek and i are writing um yes after you answer my questions :) ok class types FINAL ABSTRACT SINGLETON all not implemented ok to scratch? ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.34) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.66.34] 2. keywords PUBLIC PROTECTED PRIVATE reinhard: FINAL ABSTRACT SINGLETON ok to scratch currently only effect is that only PUBLIC items are given in schema, PRIVATE and PROTECTED not scratch or not? reinhard: scratch protected ok i would keep public and private ok there is an implicit 4th (3rd in future) type "SYSTEM" thats for sys_* things they don't appear in schema functions, too they are either private or public in my mind dont see the need for system unless system is read only no this is another flag :) then maybe we just need a readonly ok ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.34) joined #gnuenterprise. we need READONLY in gcd files? i can see the need for some readonly values that cannot be changed after the system is initialized ah but very few cases so READONLY would mean can only be written for new record, but not changed once a record is written? correct ok understand shall we keep UNSIGNED? i dont see the need with int64 ok shall we keep ENUM? nnope ok good you just made the decisions i wanted to hear :) and fyi cool, great minds think alike i hear we will have to write better error messages i placed a typo in base/org.gcd and got **** Error could not find TYPE: person::peison, defined in container contact In filename: ../../gnue-config/accounting/ar/classes/../../../base/org/classes/org.gcd right i got frustrated with the parser so i just concentrated on writing something not really what the error was because it should have been detected earlier no it is correct before i started it would not even print an error i put pe(i)son instead of pe(r)son ahh cool but the way the filename is displayed made me lol thats the todo about better include file processing yes but it works believe it or not from the docs i read that every filename must be unique so it could be enough to give yes include org, base_item, base_acct there is a glib function that will strip the path off in the gcd file? but i did not use it yet that is the way it should work but not the way it does next question just spontanous actually the parser could find out the names of the modules the current file depends on by just looking what stands before :: all over the file and it could know itself what has to be included if only we would agree to name the file after the module what we did anyway so far except how would it figure out the filename to process if only we would agree to name the file after the module i did not want to force the filename to match the module name so if the parser sees org:: somewhere in the file he could look for org.gce he could look for org.gcd s/he/it/ the reason is that some file names do not match because the real purpose of the module changed a bit after it was checked into cvs and changeing the filename in cvs is harder than just leaving it slightly different nevermind was just an idea i like it what about i think the module name and file name should be the same we add a new parser pass but it will be a pain in cvs all gcd files are looked at, and in a mem table we register which module is in which file (with complete path) and in the same path in another mem table we register which file depends on which modules s/path/pass/ cool, i like that that is exactly how we figured we would do it eventually after that pass it should be possible to construct the corect order to parse the files without includes at all yes and we do away with include all togehter yep i like that its the way software should be written neilt: but you have to know it's a much too interesting problem for me to let you do it ;) :( huh? i dont get to do it sorry maybe you misunderstood me the problem is far too interesting to give it away i want to do it myself that was what i meant exactly so i am sad i dont get to do it my self ah we could fight who does the more elegant solution ;) but it won't last yes we could where is chillywilly when i need him reinhard: ok you ready for my intro its really corny so i think i need lots of help It was a dark and stormy night..... almost glad your here jamest - Imagine the scene, Mr. Howard Harvard, CIO for Acme Magnetic Levitation has just received the bad news. The company is performing below forecast and needs to temporarily reduce costs until sales improve. Mr. Harvard contemplates his major costs; staff, maintenance fees, and software license fees. He thinks to himself, didn't we pay for all of the software when we bought it. It pretty much works. We don't need any new features. We have not been using the support service. Why do I continue to have to pay license fees that provide no value to my organization. Oh, thats right he says to himself, if I don't pay those fees they shut off my software. Sounds like a tax, doesn't it. A software usage tax. If only I could get rid of that tax I could ride out this downturn, keep my key people and be ready when the situation improves. Then, the windows burst open, and through the wind and debris appears GNUe Man. The solution to the software tax delima appears and on his back is the key "Free Software". Surely it can't be that simple, thinks Mr. Harvard. I've heard about this free software before, but how will I get my boss to understand and does this concept of free software make any sense for my organization? - hmmm ok it was just the first try is this for the swish article? yes maybe even swiss so it's going to be a casual read then right? jamest: just dont tell me it has to be more serious no, not at all, just trying to get the mood of the article and the target audience goals of GNUe - new economics for software projects - flexibility - cross platform - industry wide standards - data aware - not bloated, configure only what you need overview definition/description of GNUe - description of business functionality - partners/associated projects - tools (server, GUI) business proposition - free software, implement yourself or buy only what what you need - alternative to on-going payments to large software vendors - large business collaboration, significant return for small investments - deliver large scale benefits to small and medium size businesses technical foundation - object orientation - SQL database - CORBA/RMI interoperability - 2 tier - N tier - status - GUI (2-tier) - integration with other projects - n-tier server - future - depends on active participation from customers - We are currently preparing a special issue of the swiss magazine "INFORMATIK" (http://www.svifsi.ch/revue/index.html) on "Free Software/OpenSource Software and Business". INFORMATIK is a bi-monthly magazine oriented towards IT professionals - many swiss IT communitites and organizations have it as the regular proceeding. - jamest: so it will be an article about GNUe where we are and where we are going The only thing I cringe at....GNUe Man lol after goats reminds me of old tv commercials you cringe at GNUe Man Thanks Mr Clean, my toilet water has never tasted better! exactly but I don't have ideas for a replacement maybe the wind blew the papers on his desk arround and there was a flyer he'd put aside to look at later and forgotten thanks to GNUe man, my forms have never transported via xml-based middleware better the GNUe flyer :) Dut..dut.duh.dut..dut.dah...GNUe Man is here! (psst, hide your goats) thats the spirit I hate to run any serious comments but I have make up class at taekwondo today since I missed last week my only dislike is GNUe Man ok other than that it's nice very casual which I like would you continue reading if you saw an intro like that GNUe man makes me think of Orkin Man actually in a techi mag i think I would before I go and i did say at the beginning that it was tacky ***************JCATER******************* Integer support in the new datasources is broken this was old problem in old ones to that I worked arround if you retrieve a int 20 then you get 20L as the value returned I'll fix after class unless you beat me to it Action: jamest is away: I'm busy neilt: for the most part I like it, I just have to adjust to GNUe man nickr: i was using a superman as the model jamest: thanks it will most likely change anyway i usually start on the fringe when i write and become more centered as reality sits in Action: neilt thinks we lost reinhard no other comments chillywilly (danielb@d188.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt: from a reader's perspective i like it from a member of the project and even more from a consultant's view it has a bit too much of the focus on the "gratis" thing which worries me as i am planning to earn my living from this :) reinhard: me too but the point of the article is to get people to read the complete article if you dont grab them in the first couple of paragraphs then they skip over it yes i know i am unfair reinhard: what would you use to grab them reinhard: i like your opinions telling you what i don't like but not having a better idea reinhard: the truth is that GNUe will be so complicated that most companies will have to buy some help the freedom i think of when i think about gnue they will buy, not because they have to, but because it will make economic sense that is a key difference is the freedom like in "not being tied to a vendor " or understanding how it works or even whay article? what whatcha talkin about? changing how it works (realistically, not theoritically, like for SAP) chillywilly: take a look at the lok log heh rtfm! :P i am writing a draft for an article to a swiss magazine chillywilly: its too long to repeat again sorry neilt: btw this is funny that you write that article I don't want you to repeat it that's good enough info for me reinhard: why is that is it on the web anywhere? while i am sitting less than 1 mile from swizerland :) the article is not written yet it might make sense for you to be involved then so you;re gonna pitch the economic benefit to them and forget about freedom is that what this argument is about? neilt: not sure reinhard: do you have time and the inclination will it be printed in german or in english? german and spanish what? not german and french? or german and italian? german/italian/french are the official languages of swizerland it will be published (if we are approved) in INFORMATIK and NOVATICA are you familar with these magazines not at all if we write an article we can have published in about 5 spots 1 italian 1 french and 1 english then what this swiss fellow is offering Nick change: dnYardWork -> derek derek: ? ??? chillywilly: exactly thierry has told us at least 10 times if we write something Topic for #freedevelopers is RMS India visit (Inauguration of FSF of India and FD-India) photos at http://photos.yahoo.com/rkrishnan_m/ | Must have been lots of fun :) he has a french and italian magazine set cool his publisher friend owns that will print it i have some contacts at linux journal here in the states then why have we not written something for Thierry that we could push it too dont ask me i have begged read the logs and have posted to info@gnue.org i just got frustrated and stopped asking same with a presentation we need a canned 'presentation' of gnue with slides i started that, but ran out of time that someone could easily pick up and give a presentation of gnue on its on the web site so we can submit to the different conferences and if accepted send someone to the thing :) i see that stanley has asked for this as well :) right now we have this swiss fellow and an outline so lets concentrate on that it will likely be copyright and we will have to write different articles for the other venues has anyone on the GNUe team been published before? nope not me i hope not me :) except me then well we were published in brave gnu world once that is printed in several magazines who is we Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch the text was written by georg greve officially but much of the text came from derek iirc do we have a Bibliographical reference not sure derek ? we can have up to 12 references and we should include things that have been previously published about us or by us um a few things technically we have all been published a lot via our website, docs and this channel :) when you start to talk traditional publication, that gets narrowed a bit :) i have done a few interviews for gnue but no direct publications will we have to change that georg's synopsis of gnue was based on a narrative i gave him in question answer format of an interview was it published ? yes in a german linux magazine and online interview with praxa was also published online and i think possibly in their monthly magazine we need that reference it was in all italian georg's was translated to several languages primary audience english/german in the publishing world you are only as good as the previous things that have been published :) we should still have the reference even in itialian how do we go about getting it Action: derek is finding the data for you cool http://www.gnu.org/brave-gnu-world/issue-24.en.html especially if we can demonstrate progress since the last one is the brave gnu world going forward we should alway put things written for us or about us at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/categories.php?op=newindex&catid=2 which is the GNU Enterprise In The Press section the praxa article is there the other write ups about gnue were pre new website neilt: did you disappear? nope just reading and writting wazz up is there a printed copy of Praxa i dont know about praxa printed copy as to the article do you have lyx working? no docbook? yes i.e. how do you plan on writing it :) plain text no formmating ok can you put in gnue/docbook/articles/ yes did you see my earlier intro i would like to suggest some changes is that too radical sure to the outline too radical.... um no i like gnue man you want me to put in cvs first, then discuss but not sure its how we want to target things neilt: yes please :) as currently im just looking at the email outline you sent ok one second ok im gonna grab a sandwich be back in 5 min ok ok back its there Action: derek scored some cold pizza :) fwiw: stuft pizza and brewery is darn good wish they had here though you are in chicago so good pizza is easy for you to find yes real easy i hate you every corner pizza shop is great compared to KC where i came from Action: derek is an italian food addict though i prefer ny pizza over chicago pizza though both are good ok have cvs article am reviewing ok based on the audience and such we shoudl at a minimum make reference to 'free software' and give a link to fsf freedom page make a reference to gpl and give a link to gpl faq ok we do that in references not in the text and out of respect (and to save jamest and i serious grief) always call it free software (not open source software) and gnu/linux not linux we must do so in the text call free software and gnu/linux that is ok with that the others we can say gpl and then give reference etc elsewhere ok looking at outline now still here? yes i think overview definition might be better if comes before goals i oringinally had it there its a toss up but i thought probably depending a lot on the introduction why not sit the goals first then say how we meet them so i could go either way in this case status might be best left off lets get the key points because we will proabably restructure it anyway because of space requirements when we see it togehter and so we can reuse the article :) with minimal fuss ok down to nitty gritty let me grab something goals of GNUe - new economics for software projects - flexibility - cross platform - industry wide standards - data aware - not bloated, configure only what you need lets start here ok im going to grab original literature about 'features' of gnue and post here as they are similar ok - modular system design remember this is an outline - open architecture - powerful development framework - consistency - freedom from single source vendors - easy maintenance - package libraries - reuse of free software - versioning system - best practices - internationalizion / localization - industry specific templates whew thats all just thought relevant to help flesh out things that might be missing some of these i agre with some not thats fine is OLD marketing stuff :) that im getting it from dont agree with powerful development framework consistency easy maintenance package libraries dont agree on them for gnue or for the article for article ok for the article you have - new economics for software projects what do you mean by that? is this removal of licensing? guess im not sure how this is a 'goal' of gnue its free we want companies to be able too aford our software without breaking the bank its a goal because we understand that the economics keep many businesses from using quality software simply because of cost http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/brochure/ http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/brochure/page2.html have you seen these (old stuff) but page 2 has some reference to this and the types of choices people currently have 1. buy and suffer vendor hell 2. pay consultant to build 3. buil in house er build i think we need to build a simple business proposition and not go into all of this detail about the problems, most people know the problems so one of the goals of gnue in a nut shell is provide quality software that grow with your enterprise w/o having to break your bank or put in you panic mode everytime you have influx of employees needing the software this article is geared towards IT pros neilt: i agree exactly just trying to narrow down what new economics for software projects really translates too :), i had stumbled on the brochure and thought you might like to see it i think we need to counter the normal resistance to free software and talk about how we are different ok under new economics im putting cost benefit how do we sell it to corporate types just to help remind me what it is ok i am modifing the text file as we go what did you have in mind for flexibility its better said to me flexibility is gnue can adapt to your business processes, your business processes dont have to adapt to gnue as - not bloated, configure only what you need (flexibility) but could be that too i like that one personally and see configure what you want as a 'different' goal that is similar i think cross platform speaks for its self in this section i would simply add that homogenous environments are to be expected and that part of a 'real' solution doesnt require changing everythign to 'gnue' er microsoft, linux etc i.e. its common fodder for a vendor to come in and dictate a ton of new systems gnue's goal is to run with what you have :) be it windows, mac, linux, unix, an old toaster :) s/old toaster/vt100 terminals ;) still here? yes on industry wide standards i think obviously we could state the standards but i think here we want to state the benefits one of the big ones i see is no need to learn a 'custom language' which is common for sap, peoplesoft etc ok also by adhereing to standards we open doors for interoperbility via, corba, xml etc no sure what goal of 'data aware' means i copied that from you web pages your rofl figures :) so i can easily take it out i think a goal (at least i hear a lot) at the county is easy access to pertinent information what good is storing a lot of data if you cant get it out to make decisions i think by data aware perhaps what is meant is taht its easy to get data in and data out ok i'll change that not bloated speaks for its self i think we need to reword that but we know what we mean overview looks ok i think partner section should be used to play up the fact that free software and gnue in particular uses the community to its advantage by trying to incorporate other projects etc we need to mention other projects, do you have a list how to word that is a different question but a sure benefit many people overlook for example bayonne double choco latte bayonne phpgroupware orbit postgres mysql to name a few python i only mention the database and 'tools' in sense that its important to know that not just gnue is free the tools to use it are as well how and where we wish to state that is up to the author :) ok as to tools(server, gui) that link i gave you the other day covers most of what is planned or exists short of document management under business proposition what link? that could be a whole other article :) its the most important part of this article http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/gnue_components/ here i think for this crowd some key benefits - privacy - il8n, l8n based on what discussed so far definitely thinking technical part should be very very light and status probably not given short of some tools usable now future should be an 'invite' to participate :) this article is targeted to technical crowd so i dont think we can ignore technical part i dont thing we have to explain it, just describe it agreed im thinking almost a quick listing of technologies :) ahh like in the outline :) kde might be more well known than gnome in europe you would have to ask reinhard Then Mr. Harvard remembers that he has heard about some success stories in free software; Linux, Gnome, PostGreSQL, and MySQL. But these are just tools. He wonders how can I run my business on free software. also we should add apache reinhard: is kde or gnome more known in europe in german speaking part probably kde most kde developers are german afaik in spanish speaking part probably gnome but not sure about that plus SuSE defaults the desktop to KDE reinhard: you are correct Action: derek forgot this was going to spanish audience as well which is 90% of all linux installs of german speaking part of europe so we keep both neilt: now that i read the introduction im DYING to hear what separates gnue from the others so it must be a good introduction :) all of the stuff we just talked about :) the introduction might be slightly on the 'corny' side but honestly i think that will be appreciated :) most technical articles are so dry and dull it depends on the magazine i need to do some research i absolutely loved louis' the lazy accountant if it is a scholoarly journal and many others commented they liked the 'humorous' approach then it probably wont fly yes, i like that also derek: just checked in your comments reviewing now ok looking at thier site 'funny' might not be best approach but they did say this was special issue So we are currently (urgently - due to a misunderstanding on timeframes) looking for more or less novel and interesting articles on OSS. they did dsay more or less novel and interesting novel it will be yes :) i think it would VERY beneficial they can always ask for a rewrite if we force reinhard to translate this to german before we send it Action: reinhard hides and send both a german and english submittal i think since this is going to bepublished in europe we should have his name on it instead of yours thats fine if that does not cause a problem im like homer simpson over there he could field the questions/inquirys better they ran me out with pitch forks long ago of course that is if he wants his name associated with this drivel you could use my french pseudonymn reinhard: you still here didier voisins neilt: maybe depends on what you want from me ;) reinhard: could you add a paragraph bio to the the outline in cvs what is a paragraph bio? biography short work history education status écrit par Didier Voisins of me? employer or your cousin if he has a better bio ;) sorry silly question not sure if it is good when i am mentioned there not that i am not proud of being a project member :) reinhard: why? but i guess i will get requests regarding gnue from people reading it geschrieben durch Dietrich Nachbarn and i will possibly not have the time to handle these requests if you want my german alias :) which will give a bad light on the project derek: :) reinhard: my experinece is that you will not get many if any inquirys the way this works is that you get reprints to give to your prospects if you decide to reinhard / neilt the proper thing to do would be to funnel traffic to info@gnue.org regardless of who is author or who is put as writting it :) derek: correct but i think that it is importnat to have a european author for a ueropean publication i agree however and i dont think it will generate a lot of inquiriues personally i don't agree not sure well i would have to think about it reinhard: you think its more impressive to have by americans can't write it right now anyway derek: depends on the ready reader even :) reinhard: i am writting it in sense that it may give it more validity if those 'ugly' americans are doing it :) you only have to review and make sure you are not embarased by it still many people belive that everything that is invented in the us is good neilt: till when? till when what ? the united corporations of america sucks till when should i review and add my bio? anytime ok so not today? the only thing i need is the bio paragraph to send to the publisher should do by wednesday when do you plan to send? ok by the 10th we need to send a 'draft' i can do tomorrow or the day after tomorrow is it in cvs? i want to send outline on wednesday so we can have a discussion with publisher they may want some changes and i dont want to write a lot and have to hcange it reinhard: yes in cvs ok i will look at it tomorrow neilt: sounds reasonable neilt: would you agree to give you and me as co authors? and i can do translation to german yes reinhard: gnue/docbook/articles/ is where its at derek: thanks just saw the commit email reinhard: i dont think you have to translate neilt: they will do translation just review there translation ok [17:15] MSG541 their the only advantage i see and translation would not be necessary but any 'humor' bits thats why we have to review german part etc should be in way that expression is understood by non american but they are magazine publishers they know this stuff derek: we could make a special swiss german joke like gnue man reinhard: that would be VERY beneficial like you know "gnue" is swiss german for "enough" i dont know if europe is big on 'superman' and would get that so you could ask after all this stuff how much it costs and it ties you to a vendor don't you have enough of that? in america there is an expression 'enough is enough' (when your sick of something) yeah gnue is gnue im switching to gnue in german it's more that's enough now or i have enough well not sure if they would get it gnue man is ok btw but local humor would be good for sure just want to make sure humor or phrases are understood what file is the article in? I'd like to take a peek if you guys don't mind must go to bed today now later reinhard i have "gnue" :) night l8r all reinhard (rm@N802P023.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. though we consider reinhard up on american humor enough now, maybe he is not good barometer for such things anymore :) gnue/docbook/articles/swiss-article* tnx derek: i will clean up outline and let you know before i send it chillywilly: any comments well I ajust reading the correspondence right noe no wnow blah ok my fingers don't wanna work very cool though that they are pushing Free software and GNUe so hard I like that :) neilt: sounds good heheh an old toaster Action: chillywilly wants a GNUe enabled toaster :P chillywilly: talk to the netbsd folks they might have netbsd for a toaster which would be a start for GNUe Toaster i have netbsd that runs like an old toaster :) if that counts rofl lol Action: derek has successfully spit my drink all down the front of my shirt rolmao aaaaah that was a good theraputic laugh thanks neilt :) ok so any comments ummm it is a cool little scenario thanks Action: chillywilly pictures GNUe man bursting throught the door chest puffed out head held back .....GNUe Man! you come to the rescue will swiss ppl understand superman? i guess we'll see super man is pretty universal isn't he? when the publisher see it and comments what I would like to see is GNUe man liberating them and helping then gain their freedom form the evil enterprise software overlords but that's pretty radical ;) ppl might think we are nuts, then again this is GNU :P people like to be entertained I know I do ;) even if we come off as a little nuts, no publicity is bad they will remember us true that is the key yea nuts corny is ok nuts scarry is bad ;) derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net] I guess it depends on how far you push the envelope RMS can be scary to ppl especially scary looking he sorta reminds me of a GNU he has a shaggy beard like a mane even Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy you guys check out the picture from RMS's India trip? for #freedevelopers is RMS India visit (Inauguration of FSF of India and FD-India) photos at http://photos.yahoo.com/rkrishnan_m/ | Must have been lots of fun :) Action: jamest is back (gone 02:39:49) ************** for reinhard ******************** SQL query: 'INSERT INTO geas__listholder(sys_id,sys_cre_user,sys_cre_time,sys_mo d_user,sys_mod_time,length)VALUES ('a2ab2ee2f89a49879dd72ad3a3b16128','547b-46b4 -bd7a-01f1e4ffc73f-guest','2001-09-04 02:31:29','547b-46b4-bd7a-01f1e4ffc73f-gue st','2001-09-04 02:31:29','0')' PostgreSQL reported a fatal error PostgreSQL Error message: ERROR: ExecAppend: Fail to add null value in not null attribute classname could it be the result of my screwed query? or just geas bug? ************************************************* http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/prnation.html ra3vat: ops that is bad sql generation neilt: i was playing with query but where is it using the classname? geas__listholder is the class name module geas class listholder it is defalt NULL? default even exactly ah NOT NULL ra3vat: you sis that by hand? s/sis/did or GEAS did that ah well I gotta eat bbl Action: chillywilly is away: dinner Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:23:05) is jamest here? or da masta yes how easy would it be to make a web frontend for forms? madlocke is working on one how's he soing it? doing has it displaying forms is gonna contribute the code? yes can you get at it now? based upon webworks IIRC hmmm wassat? i dont' recall is that Free software too? we can't get it yet yes IIRC i'll mail him now Action: chillywilly wants badly to replace this http://sourceforge.net/proejcts/trioweb with a GNUe solution chillywilly: please check yourself webware.sf.net you betta check yo self :P j/k ra3vat: thansk thanks even :) coool anyone remember madlockes real name? heheh not me I never knew it is webware like zope? kewl psp hmmm this is very kewl jamest: Michael so basically you could have psp pages call the rest of the forms code? or actually psp UI driver or somethin Michaelpine whoops Mussi (x@200.167.235.88) joined #gnuenterprise. Mussi (x@200.167.235.88) left irc: jamest: you know what features he is using? is it just the psp stuff? not a clue all the rest seems to duplicate GNUe stuff * A fast, easy-to-use application server * Servlets * Python Server Pages (PSP) * Object-relational mapper * Task scheduler * User manager with authentication * CGI wrapper does forms talk to GEAS though? Nick change: neilt -> neil-away you got an email address? for madlocke i don't know yet :) oh as far a geas forms communication they are still iffy but we're working on it now ah I'm still finding issues w/ new drivers you rewrote a lot of code? jcater completely replaced the old database system k which broke lots o stuff most of which is working now I should install some stuff right now and play with ti sans triggers which i think I've got usable sort of here froms does authentication to the databse in 2-tier mode right? yes btw, now that I think about it I like the idea of downloading methods from geas if you're on a slow link now don't start thinking on us, you'll make the rest of us look bad we don't think and neither should you heh Action: chillywilly needs to assess what GNUe packages are needed for manageing a TRIO Program how easy is it to install th python stuff on winders? is it a pain? fairly easy it's all setup.exe 's really nice I think I should just not even worry about a web client and just use forms less I have to deal with web ppl the better for MSOE that is that's the reason they are not using that PHP stuff to being with the UNIX admins and web/PR ppl are morons so it did not get deployed not to mention I got sick of them being so stupid I used sutomake to install the php scripta automagically but for some reason they had issues on digital UNIX but they would not install the fucking things by hand automake I should never have used it in the first place should've just made them copy it by hand anyway some people are sooo stupid I mean how many php nased apps do you knwo of use autoconf/automake to automate the install? based that's something I'll never do again if ppl are gonna say oh well I'd rather do 'make install' and be done with it...fuck them I won't give them that option then if their gonna use it as an excuse not to just copy the damn files over :) Action: jamest is back wb jamest neil-away (neilt@dialup-209.244.66.169.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. heya hi you should this: http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/prnation.html Well, the 20th century has been marked by three great developments: the rise of democracy, the rise of corporate power and the rise of corporate propaganda to protect corporate power from democracy. Corporations wage war on democracy through advertising and public relations, but especially public relations. nickr (nick@63.163.68.113) left irc: Ping timeout for nickr[63.163.68.113] nickr (nick@63.163.68.113) joined #gnuenterprise. nickr (nick@63.163.68.113) left irc: Killed (NickServ (This nick is reserved by another user)) nickr (nick@63.163.68.113) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.34) left irc: [x]chat nickr (nick@63.163.68.113) left irc: Killed (NickServ (This nick is reserved by another user)) Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. elle ello even ello olle you here for real jamest? or just stopping by? yes still working on triggers getting old triggers working and fixing bugglets pwd hehe bugglets you get that master detail issue ironed out? that i reported on contact_manager.gfd? I have no idea im getting ready to write a master/detail(master)detail master->detail(master)->detail for hcs so dont know if i will need to go back to tagged copy Nick change: ajbusy -> ajmitch mdean (mdean@arc10x71.kcnet.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hi mdean hi mdean good news you have another dcl customer hey guys dcl_customers++; Action: derek has got to start selling gnue as much as he is selling dcl :) chillywilly (danielb@d188.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: hehe how was LWE? dcL? disappointing but good dcl==double choc latte fwiw mdean i demo'ed dcl to the lead technologist for a small pharmacy company called walgreens he liked it and may change his personal team over to it wow that's pretty cool :) they have successfully 'bucked' the corporate call center applicatoin as his staff abhors it ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Action: jamest kicks himself hard dont do that you might hurt yourself you know what in the world made me think I could port this app i have to release tonight to the new gnuef hmmm, when i sent you that eight ball of crack i didnt expect you to smoke the whole thing in one sitting jamest at some point were we going to making cvs gnue/forms gnue/common gnue/designer opposed to gnue/gnuef gnue/gnue-common yes, after the next release otay knew we discussed a long while back but couldnt remember what was discussed :) basically the usual we weighed the amount of work vs the amount of grief it'd cause masta and found the potential amount of grief was well worth the effort ok here's the scoop on the new gnuef it doesn't understand non-dataaware fields so if they're in your form you're toast could that be what is wrong w/ your contact form? hmmm nope well possibly but some what doubtful the form works and the 'master' will get data its just not recognizing detail oh yeah look at states.gfd the master/detail definition moved from the block to the datasource looks pretty yeah Action: derek secretly notes in irc log, that i suggested that many moons ago :) jamest: that would be the problem i will move to datasource and test later time to spend time with wife bbi 2hours dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: EOF from client dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. mdean (mdean@arc10x71.kcnet.com) left irc: Ping timeout for mdean[arc10x71.kcnet.com] Nick change: ajmitch -> ajbusy dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres[4.18.171.42] dres__ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres_[4.18.171.42]: EOF from client uday (kotuday@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest you here? i may have encountered a new and fun loving bug what is it