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<neilt> reinhard: thanks for the comments
<neilt> later
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<reinhard> hey jamest
<reinhard> did you see i fixed geas compile problem for solaris yesterday?
<jamest> nope
<jamest> I'll try again now
<jamest> did you see conversation last night regarding comm channels?
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> i saw a lot of conversation last night
<reinhard> but i didn't read in detail
<reinhard> the log of last night was about as long as the log of a whole week
<jamest> lol
<jamest> it was the latter part
<jamest> search for <jamest> that's why I'm asking chillywilly for input :)
<jamest> and it follows that
<reinhard> jamest: ok
Action: jamest wants/needs input
<jamest> btw - this all started with me looking at a enhanced geas driver
<jamest> in case you wonder why this even came up
<jamest> btw - geas builds on solaris
<reinhard> jamest: to be honest
<reinhard> i think it's too early thinking about this stuff now
<reinhard> i would rather want to see a system that works w/ a single protocol
<reinhard> than a white paper that works w/ multiple protocols
<reinhard> of course when implementing
<reinhard> we have to keep in mind what our long term goal is
<reinhard> to have multiple ways of communication
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<jamest> i really didn't think we'd have anything fancy now
<jamest> but a nice feature list and general idea of direction could save us work down the raod
<jamest> road
<reinhard> jamest: i'm not sure but imho the decision of where gnue will go is actually your decision
<reinhard> especially when talking about philosophy
<reinhard> when you decide whether you want to support multiple ways of communication or only corba
<reinhard> you can't say the one thing is right and the other is wrong
<reinhard> it's a matter of philosophy
<reinhard> like the decision whether we want to be portable
<reinhard> or we prefer to be linux only
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<reinhard> (well i thought i know what decision you made in that point) :)
<reinhard> like the decision whether we want to be easy-to-install-plug-and-play
<reinhard> or not
<jamest> reinhard: I'm lost
<reinhard> sorry didn't want to confuse or distract you
<reinhard> initially i joined the project because i liked some of your basic concepts
<reinhard> the platform specific forms clients, even for curses
<reinhard> the application server with downloadable methods
<reinhard> the database independance
<reinhard> those were good goals imho
<reinhard> and it's correct to define the goals first
<reinhard> and then look how to achieve it
<reinhard> it's incorrect imho to look what we can achieve
<reinhard> and then define that as our goal
<reinhard> and what use was it to discuss for over a year which orb to use to find out now that we will support multi orb ;)
<reinhard> j/k
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<jamest> wow
<neilt> welcome from our nations captial
<jamest> everyone hear about the world trade center
<jamest> dodging airplanes yet neilt?
<neilt> yes i am
<neilt> everything shut down
<jamest> i bet
<neilt> airplane crashed at the pentagon i hear also
<jamest> yip
<jamest> just heard the white house was on fire too
<neilt> about 20 miles from me
<neilt> or less
<reinhard> man
<neilt> we cant get any information
<jamest> cnn is down
<jamest> msnbc is down now
<reinhard> just got a call from my wife
<jamest> slashdot has a article
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> that i should look the headlines in the internet
<neilt> reinhard: you probably cant get any headlines on the internet right now
<reinhard> neilt: of course
<neilt> washington post not responding
<reinhard> austrian news service
<reinhard> latest news 15:54
<reinhard> which is 11 minutes ago
<reinhard> they say it was a passenger airplane
<reinhard> which was hijacked
<reinhard> with normal passengers
<jamest> man, all the normal news sites are down
<jamest> this is almost histroy making
<jamest> history making
<neilt> welcome to the internet age
<jamest> a net while D.O.S 
<neilt> great unless something happens
<neilt> where is my ham radio
<jamest> while = wide
<neilt> where is my shortwave
<jamest> :)
<neilt> wall street journal is still up
<reinhard> brb
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<jamest> neilt: couldn't find a article
<jamest> on qsj.com
<jamest> er wsj.com
<neilt> wsj front page came up, but article is not loading
<jamest> sigh
<neilt> http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB1000212502674494065.htm
<jamest> argh! npr is down too
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<jcater> howdy
<jamest> hey jcater heard about the world trade center/pentagon 
<jcater> yip
<jcater> scary
<jamest> why use a bomb eh?
<jamest> holy shit
<jamest> one of the towers collapsed
<jcater> yes
<jcater> and the other's on fire
<jamest> argh!
<jcater> all the news sites down?
<jamest> my net news feeds are all down
Action: jamest needs input!
<neilt> geas
<neilt> forms
<neilt> geas
<neilt> forms
<neilt> geas
<neilt> forms
<neilt> -
<neilt> jamest: i guess that all you need to know
<neilt> :)
<neilt> will later all
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<jcater> a car bomb just exploded outside the state department
<jcater> plus another plane has been hijacked
<jamest> where?
<jcater> it's headed towards NY too
<jamest> really?
<jcater> not sure where the plane originated from
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<reinhard> hey what's this
<reinhard> is this war or what
<jcater> ???
<reinhard> i really don't like that
<reinhard> what's happening there
<reinhard> looks like some folks really went insane
<jcater> went insane=got incredibly organized
<jcater> some folks=some insane folks
<reinhard> the ministry of foreign affairs is on fire, too
<jcater> the other tower just collapsed
<jcater> !!!!!
[09:29] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> reinhard: where at?
<reinhard> jamest: ??
<jamest> which  ministry of foreign affairs
<reinhard> washington
<jamest> man
<jamest> this is nuts
Action: jamest has no radio or tv access
<jcater> can you play realplayer feeds?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> but I can't find a url to connect to
<jcater> www.wbur.org
<jcater> never mind... it was just slashdotted
<jamest> gack
<jcater> a large plane crashed 80 miles southeast of pittsburg
<jcater> not sure if its related
<jcater> but it just happened
<jcater> :(
<jcater> my god, our airport is already overcrowded... planes are landing here as fast as they can
<jcater> I wonder how many planes are in the air at any given time
<derek> wow i just woke up
<derek> what the hell is going on ?
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<jcater> good morning
<jcater> derek: no clue?
<derek> i read immediate log
<derek> is our country at war?
<jcater> someone hijacked 2 planes and crashed into world trade center
<jcater> passenger planes
<derek> cnn.com etc are all down
<jcater> both towers crashed
<jcater> they no longer exist
<derek> holy crap
<jcater> plus the pentagon was bombed
<derek> yikes
<jcater> and it's unconfirmed, but a car bomb went off at state dept
<jcater> and I think the white house is on fire
<jcater> all flights are being grounded
<jcater> they think at least 2 more planes have been hijacked
<reinhard> dflp has committed
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<jamest> all hell is breaking loose
<jcater> derek: yes, we are at war
<jcater> we just don't know with whom
<reinhard> democratic front for liberty of palestina
<reinhard> or something like that
<reinhard> i read the dflp shortcut
<jcater> dflp shortcut?
<derek> and whoever is doing this i assume is behind the net outage
<reinhard> democratic front for liberty of palestina
<derek> i have the tv on
<jcater> the net outage is from the flood of ppl
<derek> im debating on not going to work
<derek> jcater: ah
<jcater> most governments are shutting down, so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't need to go in
<derek> these are some organized
<derek> bad boys
<jcater> reinhard: where's this dflp shortcut?
<jcater> I wanna read
<derek> man this is just nuts
<derek> they arent sending us home from work
<derek> :(
<derek> so i guess i should head to work
<jcater> ick
<derek> but it will suck as no cnn.com there :)
<derek> jamest / jcater : that sample.gfd i sent bombs with latest cvs snapshot as well
<derek> please look at it if you have time
<derek> will be back in an hour or so
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<reinhard> jcater: a tv news in abu dabi (arabic city) mentioned that
Action: jcater is really nervous about being in Memphis
<reinhard> they got a call from somebody of the DFLP who said they were it
<jcater> we are a centrally located airport, so a LOT of flights are coming here
<reinhard> jcater: all airports are closed from what i read
<jamest> jcater: ouch
<reinhard> plus i would not worry
<jamest> all fights are being civerted to canada
<reinhard> they don't crash airports
<jcater> reinhard: trust me, we have flights right and left
Action: jcater is not too far from airport
<reinhard> they crash important political and economical buildings
<jcater> reinhard: yes, but who is coming into memphis that had planned to go elsewhere???
<reinhard> jcater: seriously, i wouldn't feel too well
<reinhard> if i was in the U.S. at all
<jamest> http://KCRW.com/grid/
<jamest> has functional live realaudio feed
<jcater> an aircraft has crashed at camp david
<jamest> you're shitting me
<jamest> where you getting this from?
<jcater> NBC news
<jamest> on the web?
<jcater> our local fm stations are playing a live feed from nbc correspondents
<jamest> ah, i took my radio home last week
<jamest> or a little before as realaudio was all I needed
<jamest> NOT!
<jamest> you know...being the optimist I am.....
<jamest> imagine if these nutballs had a small nuke
<jcater> i know
<jamest> you get everyone focused on the wtc
<jcater> then
<jcater> bam!
<jamest> get all the resuce efforts underway
<jamest> yip
<reinhard> no kidding
<jcater> F16's are on a search and destroy mission around NY and Washington
<jcater> even if they are passenger planes
<reinhard> this reminds me exactly on the start of the film "the day after"
<jcater> :(
<jamest> they are shooting down passenger planes?
<jcater> IF a passenger plane is flying towards that area and appears to be hijacked, then yes
<reinhard> manhattan is being evacuated
<reinhard> all we can do now is pray
<reinhard> and hope that neilt is ok
<jamest> yes
<reinhard> the pentagon has collapsed
<jcater> what!!
<reinhard> well at least parts of it
<jcater> are you serious?
<reinhard> "was seen in CNN"
<reinhard> i am relying on a local news feeder
<reinhard> probably 10000% better reachable as any global one
Action: reinhard is soooo happy that austria is a neutral country
Action: jamest is soooo happy that 90% of the world hate (l)american
<jcater> you know, this pisses me off because we provoke people like this all the time then don't understand when someone retaliats
<jamest> oh, wait, no I'm not
<jcater> I'm listening to others here in the office
<jcater> "we should have nuked them too"
<jcater> we don't even know who the hell it is
<reinhard> jcater: yes
<reinhard> this is what i worry most
<jamest> NUKE EM ALL!
<reinhard> as an "outsider" of this thing
<jcater> apparently there is a bomb in a high school
<reinhard> whether this becomes a war or not
<jamest> we'll ride out the resulting nuclear winter in our SUVs
<reinhard> does now depend on how mr. bush reacts
<jcater> reinhard: how easy is it to become a citizen of austria?
<reinhard> jcater: you are lucky
<reinhard> we stopped like any 
<reinhard> arrrg.... what is that called when you let other people in your country
<jcater> imigration?
<jamest> immigration
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> we stopped all immigration
<jamest> whoops, i have class to go to
<jamest> bbl
<reinhard> except for computer experts :)
<ra3vat> seems dflp don't care their business disturb some neutral citizen
<jamest> btw- I was joking about the NUKE EM ALL thing
<ra3vat> it's for reinhard
<reinhard> jamest: figured that much
<jcater> that's the attitude I see a lot of, though
<jamest> most people hate (l)americans in general
<jcater> and that's what gets us into this mess
<jamest> we do do a lot of things wrong
<jamest> and we never get credit for the things we do right
<jamest> like the m$ of the world I guess :)
<jcater> you mean like forcing our views on others?
<jcater> :)
<reinhard> ra3vat: you must always see that they are fanatic
<jamest> I mean like giving humanitarian aide to places like mexico after earthquakes, or helping out france after the war and ignoring the debt etc etc
<reinhard> america == bad
<reinhard> is what they have in mind
<jamest> no one helps us out after an earthquake or huricane
<reinhard> like not so many years ago
<reinhard> somebody had
<reinhard> jewish == bad
<reinhard> it's all the same thing
<jamest> but we do suck in a lot of ways
<jamest> bbl
<reinhard> gotta make dinner for my kids
<reinhard> in case you believe in god over there
<reinhard> i pray for you 
<reinhard> in case you don't
<reinhard> i pray for you anyway :)
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
Action: ra3vat is unhappy to see all this happen
<ra3vat> reinhard: i do believe and pray too
<ra3vat> bbl
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<rm-away> for those who have no tv available
<rm-away> http://www.vol.at/Pubs/Redaktion/Seiten/flugzeugcrash/Flugzeugcrash-82302.shtm
<rm-away> and click on the photo camera symbols at the left side
<jcater> thanks
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<reinhard> jcater: btw not sure if austria is the country you look for
<reinhard> we are surrounded by 6 other countries
<reinhard> of which 5 are NATO members
<reinhard> iirc
<jamest> so anything happen while I was gone
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<reinhard> jamest: not that i know of
<dneighbo> want the local report?
<dneighbo> from govt employee
<jamest> sure
<dneighbo> we are on full lock down in state of arizona
<dneighbo> which is one step below declaration of war
<dneighbo> our downtown looks like a police state
<dneighbo> full police swat on every corner
<dneighbo> surrounding our federal and local 3 city blocks
<dneighbo> all parking shut off
<dneighbo> and streets continually patrolled by police
<dneighbo> our elected officials offices have full security
<dneighbo> with armed undercovers manning the area
<dneighbo> really rather frightening
<dneighbo> looks like something out of a bad movie
<dneighbo> we have two air force bases and a nuclear powerplant here in phoenix
<jamest> and masta
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<jamest> you gotta love our elected officials
<jamest> all the blathering and posturing
<jamest> one just ripped into the FBI and CIA claiming they failed america
<jamest> didn't commit enough resources was too complacent yada yada yada
<jamest> wonderfull 20/20 hindsight there senator bubba
<jamest> and who has more control over the amount of resources availabe to them than the people that set their budget
<jamest> and how in the hell is any group of people supposed to track the activities of all the possibly bad people on an entire planet
<dneighbo> i hate to say that i hope this is like oklahoma
<dneighbo> and is done by someone internal to US
Action: jamest is looking forward to the future
<dneighbo> as then its find and execute like mc veigh
<dneighbo> other wise we WILL be declaring war on someone
<dneighbo> and that will not be a good thing :(
<dneighbo> this is touted as being worse than pearl harbor
<dneighbo> or equivalent
<jamest> instead of DUI checkpoints good old USA Inc will instigated Body cavity checkpoints 
<jamest> the whole thing is horible
<jamest> but the "solutions" proposed cannot be good
<jcater> what did I miss?
<jcater> was donating blood
<jamest> I'm already hearing things about US citizines can expect lifestyle changes
<jamest> wouldn't be suprised to see things like carnavore being promoted as tools to protect us from things like this
<jcater> time to beef up my donations to aclu, eff, et al
<jamest> I'm speculating
<jamest> but I tend to look at things as "what does this gain the people in power or with money"
<jcater> jamest: I would hardly call what you are saying "speculation"... I'm already hearing that kinda crap
<jamest> I nailed the gas prices increases when I told people you'd see Bush push to open up Alaska wildlife refuge to oil drilling
<jcater> I find it amazing how "shocked" everyone is and "why would this happen to us"
<jamest> oil wanted in there, they bumped up prices, (l)americans whined, bush (as much as he distances self from oil :) gave people a solution
<jamest> now we'll see the same thing wrt our rights
<jcater> I was joking w/Bush supporters around here... "so, you think he'll get big oil's opinion before acting on this?
<jcater> "
<dneighbo> yes this kind of stuff has MANY MANY ramifications
<dneighbo> the first will be a declaration of war on someone
<dneighbo> which only feeds to a ;bigbrother; state in the name of our 'protection'
<dneighbo> it will get worse before it gets better :(
<jcater> yip
<jcater> what's sad is I'm raising these issues at work, and ppl look at me as "unpatriotic"
<jcater> "Those who would sacrifice a little freedom for temporal safety deserve
<jcater> neither to be safe or free." - Benjamin Franklin
<dneighbo> how true
<dneighbo> im lucky the guy at work here agrees
<dneighbo> that this is just going to really be a sacrificial lamb to freedom
Action: dneighbo vows to carry vaseline at all times
<dneighbo> must be prepared for those body cavity searches
<jcater> then there's Bush ... "we will retaliate"  this is good... someone retaliates against us, so lets re-retaliate against them... hmmm, what will happen next?
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<jcater> neilt: you back at home?
<jcater> everything ok with you and yours?
<neilt> nope, washington dc
<neilt> for a while
<jcater> total chaos?
<neilt> yes
<neilt> everythng locked down
<neilt> fighter jets flying ober
<neilt> over
<neilt> all roads into dc closed
<neilt> or at least all major roads
<jcater> "We don’t know anything here. We’re watching CNN too," said an official at the National Security Council.
<dneighbo> jcater rofl
<dneighbo> neilt what is the scene like there?
<dneighbo> how will you get home?
<dneighbo> do you need us to call your family?
<dneighbo> as im sure phone lines are screwed there
Action: dneighbo really feels for neilt being trapped in DC with all thats going on 
<dneighbo> Just got email from USA Today and The Boston Globe asking if I was going
<dneighbo> to continue anonymous proxy operations.
<dneighbo> I shut down the public proxy earlier today.
<dneighbo> Various anonymous service operators are already emailing out closure notices
<dneighbo> on anonymous email services.
<neilt> already talked to family
<neilt> but thanks
<dneighbo> ok good
<neilt> i extended my reservations as soon as i heard about this stuff
<dneighbo> are you in downtown DC?
<neilt> nope, by dulles
<dneighbo> ah thats probably worse
<neilt> as good fortune would have it
<dneighbo> as everyone stranded probably looking for place to stay :)
<dneighbo> good thinking to quickly extend reservation :)
<neilt> i hear downtown dc is completely closed
<neilt> we have jet fighters flying overhead
<neilt> here
<neilt> all planes grounded
<neilt> and the traffic is mad out here, i cant even imaging downtown
<neilt> schools are locked up not letting kids in or out and not letting anyone in that is not known
<neilt> police scanners are reporting another bombing at the FAA site here
<neilt> probably just rumor
<neilt> which are flying wild
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Nick change: neilt -> neil-away
<jamest> I wish I could find a pic of the collapsed towers
<jamest> I've heard it's only the top
<jamest> I've also heard it is both towers completely to the ground
<dneighbo> jamest i want picture too, are we sick and twisted?
<jcater> yes, but not because of this
<chillywilly> both of them went all the way down
<dneighbo> thats what i heard, but i only find pictures of tops misisng
<dneighbo> missing
<jamest> i think we should rebuild them even larger as a momument to the victims
<jamest> make them the tallest buildings on the planet by a large margin
<jcater> it's hard to believe that the KS bombings were 8 years ago
<jamest> KS?
<jcater> oops, wrong city
<jcater> oh, and I guess it's only been 6 years
<jcater> my neural nets are degrading
Nick change: neil-away -> neilt
Action: dneighbo calls tech support to research the problems with AI's recharger, as he seems to be outputting inconsistent data ;)
Action: chillywilly quickly hacks up an extra layer of nuerons for jcater
<dneighbo> neilt so how goes it
<dneighbo> you are our life blood to the 'action'
<chillywilly> that should help fine tune your nueral net
<chillywilly> but you have to let things propagate for while so you can "learn" ;)
<chillywilly> neural networks are cool....we built one in a little game in AI class
<reinhard> neilt: i am _really_ glad you are ok
<reinhard> i feel with you all
<reinhard> as much as i can as somebody watching only through tv
<reinhard> will be off for today
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<neilt> reinhard: thanks
<chillywilly> where are you neilt?
<neilt> washington dc
<neilt> about 20 miles from the pentagon
<dneighbo> still chaos there?
<chillywilly> ooooh
<dneighbo> or settled down?
<neilt> who knows
<dneighbo> i.e. tanks driving through the streets eyt
<dneighbo> or you just hanging out in the hotel
<neilt> most businesses are closed
<neilt> a lot of roads closed
<neilt> so i thought i would skip the white house tour tonight
<neilt> nope at client
<dneighbo> what is climate like there at the client office/
<neilt> they gave people to the option of going home
<neilt> if necessary
<neilt> but this week is (was the busiest week of the year)
<dneighbo> neilt i imagine most people are staying at work seeing how traffic is probably an utter bitch
<dneighbo> im not getting much done here as too interested in whats going on
<dneighbo> its dying down some
<neilt> most main roads into dc are closed
<neilt> at the pentagon people were told to run and forget cars
<neilt> mass trasit was closed down
<neilt> not sure if it has opened up yet
<neilt> if you are in dc you are happy to be able to get to your car
<neilt> because it will make a relatively nice place to sleep
<jamest> wow
<neilt> dc was declared a state of emerg
<neilt> so the guard could be called out
<neilt> the mayor has ordered everyone to stay home if not on essestial business
<neilt> like picking up kids
<neilt> or emerg worker
<jamest> Pres. Bush is now in Omaha, Nebraska ?
<jamest> must figure it's the safest place to be as no-one wants to spend time in the middle of the US
<neilt> Omaha has a big SAC base IIRC
<neilt> SAC = strategic air command
<chillywilly> don't you know that America deserved this? America is the devil or smething....some of thses slashdot posters make me sick
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<jamest> chillywilly: we are bastards 
<jamest> chillywilly: we're pretty giving bastards at times
<chillywilly> well I am not happy with the state of our fucking country if takes something tlike this for people to give a shit about each other
<jamest> but americans should accept that our global policies and attitudes don't make us the most loved country in the world
<dneighbo> our court buildings just got sent home
<jamest> makes sense
<jamest> now that we're about one knee jerk reaction away from a police state we really don't need the judical system :)
<Mr_You> chilly: what are you talking about?
<Mr_You> umm.. terrorist didn't attack us because of our policies and attitudes
<jamest> i didn't say they did
<jamest> I said our policies and attitudes don't make us the most loved country in the world
<Mr_You> yeah.. well just making that clear ;-)
<Mr_You> they attacked us because they see us as an ally with israel
<Mr_You> and we're "the devil"
<chillywilly> Mr_You: what do you mean what am I talking about...how many ppl really care about each other theses days, in fact do people even have a vioce anymore...the only time america ever comes together or cares about anything is when tragedy occurs
<jcater> I think it's more deeply rooted than us simply being an "ally"
<Mr_You> chillywilly: sorry, not from my point of view
<Mr_You> jcater: deeply rooted in what?
<jcater> we prokoved others a little too much
<jcater> err, provoked
<jcater> this was no surprise
<Mr_You> how did we provoke this?
<jcater> appauling, yes
<jcater> but no surprise
<Mr_You> thats a big surprise.. we provoking terrorist
<jcater> provoking cultures
<jcater> who retaliate thru terrorism
<jcater> there's a difference
<Mr_You> I'll never get it unless you're specific
<jcater> it's not as simple as "we are good, they are bad"
<chillywilly> if anyone is against our capitalist ways we squash them dead
<Mr_You> I still need to hear something specific
<jcater> there ya go
<Mr_You> ummm
<Mr_You> ok, dunno what that has to do with provoking terrorism
<jamest> Mr_You: we jerk other country's arround to met our political goals
<jamest> Mr_You: we use resources like we're the only country on the planey
<chillywilly> we don't the corporations do, imho
<chillywilly> we have no voice anymore in this country
<jamest> chillywilly: you can't blame a faceless corp
<Mr_You> indirectly you could say an apple falling off a tree provokes terrorism, but I really don't see how directly the US is provoking terrorism..
<jcater> chillywilly: we as a nation are a microsoft
<Mr_You> the middle eastern countries support the terrorism..
<Mr_You> that is one problem..
<dneighbo> Mr_You i think there are several dyanmics
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<dneighbo> i dont think anyone is 'excusing' the behavior
<jcater> think of it this way... in their culture, they were patriotic. when we retaliate, we will be "terrorists"
<dneighbo> simply put the US has political agendas that behoove them and it pisses people off
<Mr_You> same here.. but saying we provoke terrorism without giving a specific example to explain is outrageous IMO
<dneighbo> some of those people happen to be terrorists
<jcater> Mr_You: there is no SINGLE defining event
<dneighbo> our announced support of israel
<chillywilly> jamest: are gov't is bought by the corporations and I could go on and start naming a few of them but the point is this country is not of the people anymore yet we pay for our so called gov't's actions with our lives
<dneighbo> Mr_You you want a specific
<Mr_You> jcater: we attack terrorists not innocent people.. THEY (the innocent people in their country) KNOW we are attacking terrorist
<dneighbo> last week at the summit ( i cant recall which one)
<dneighbo> the one thtat was basically a rant against jews
<Mr_You> yes..
<dneighbo> we bowed out of that
<dneighbo> did not show up
<dneighbo> as we were showing our support for israel
<Mr_You> I don't see those actions as provokation of a terrorist attack
<dneighbo> well you arent islamic :)
<Mr_You> indirectly it obviously could have had a reason
<dneighbo> i dont think cutting off oil to japan in 40's was an 'act of war'
<Mr_You> ie. if you're islamic, its could be seen as provoking..
<dneighbo> but they felt it was and pearl harbor happened
<Mr_You> but if you're ANY SANE PERSON its obviously NOT
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<jcater> lemme guess, ANY SANE PERSON=American
<dneighbo> as stated i dont think anyone is 'defending' thier actions
<chillywilly> they are not sane rational ppl, sane ppl don't crash planes into building tryint o kill as many ppl as they can
<dneighbo> just stating it shouldnt be a 'suprise'
<jcater> dneighbo: exactly
<Mr_You> jcater: pelease
<dneighbo> its like when the guy at the post office who is a little bit 'bent'
<jcater> we're not some innocent little country who had bullies pcik on them
<dneighbo> and everyone thinks hes nuts
<dneighbo> then he gets fired
<dneighbo> and when escorted out the building yells you will pay for this
<dneighbo> and a week later when he goes 'postal'
<dneighbo> people go 'wow what a shock'
<Mr_You> jcater: ummm.. what is the reason for terrorist attack then?
<dneighbo> i equate this as being similar
<jcater> retaliation I'm sure
<dneighbo> everyone knows these groups are 'bent'
<Mr_You> jcater: a bully is the perfect example of terrorist activity
<dneighbo> tehy have threatened
<Mr_You> jcater: for what?!?!
<dneighbo> and now when something happens we say 'gasp, shock, wow cant believe it'
<dneighbo> thats my point anyhow
<chillywilly> heh, those palistinians are celebrating int the street
<dneighbo> is how can we act so 'suprised'
<Mr_You> its not retaliation.. its an offensive attack
<jcater> NO!!!!
<chillywilly> yea, we are sooo innocent
<chillywilly> not!
<dneighbo> suprised maybe that they were able to do so much damage so easily, but suprised that they attacked no
<dneighbo> we see it as offensive
<dneighbo> i think they see it as defensive
<chillywilly> those ppl in the middle east are whacked though
<dneighbo> i think its in the eye of the beholder
<jcater> Mr_You: it could be anything... we as Americans do not respect other cultures and their values... we push ours on them and when they fight back for what THEY believe (say, the same way we did against Britain) its "terrorism" and an "offensive move".
<Mr_You> dneighbo: thats some EXTEREMELY poor defensive attack
<jcater> I'd dare say the terrorists" are heros in their culture right now
<jcater> Mr_You: how is that poor defensiveness? they couldn't have been more successful
<Mr_You> jcater: yeah.. sorry that most of the sane, humane world sees murder as a bad thing.. sorry if WE'RE ALL BAD because we don't understand their "values" omg
<jcater> whoever "they" are
<dneighbo> um looks like good usage of resources
<dneighbo> they maybe lost 4 people per plane
<jcater> um
<jcater> yeah, we don't murder
<dneighbo> so 12 casualities on their side
<jcater> say, over oil resources :)
<dneighbo> compared to say 1000s on our side
<Mr_You> jcater: umm.. a defensive attack would be one that attacks offensive powers.. such as military bases..
<dneighbo> they shut down the largest air network for over 24 hours
<jcater> well, from their point of view, what is attacking them?
<dneighbo> and brought 2 of 3 largest cities to thier knees
<Mr_You> give me a break, I can't believe I'm arguing this
<dneighbo> and it probably cost them under 500,000 and 12 lives?
<dneighbo> i would hope our forces could be so efficient
<chillywilly> maybe the almighty dollar just isn't so important after all and some countries realize this yet we kick them hard until they do it our way
<Mr_You> this is so rediculous..
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<chillywilly> heh
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<Mr_You> oops
<dneighbo> so desert storm and vietnam were defensive right?
<dneighbo> and we didnt attack anything but military installations?
<Mr_You> umm war and terrorism are too different things
Action: Mr_You is getting overly frustrated like usual.
<neilt> nobody likes the most powerful nation on earth, its all because of envy
<dneighbo> last i saw vietnam and sudan never attacked teh US
<dneighbo> those were 'political' wars
<neilt> and if you are a dictator that is screwing your people you have to have an enemy
<dneighbo> anyhow i dont want to sound unamerican
<Mr_You> why even bring that to this conversation?
<neilt> does not matter who
<dneighbo> just simply put its easy to wear rose colored glasses at times
<Mr_You> has no relevance
<dneighbo> Mr_You it does have relevance
<neilt> if you dont have an enemy then the people will revolt and the dictator will lose
<dneighbo> you stated a 'defense' had to be on military installations
<Mr_You> war != terrorism
<dneighbo> last i recall
<jcater> terrorism == effective war
<Mr_You> wrong
<dneighbo> neither desert storm or vietnam was ever declared a war 
<dneighbo> here in the states
<dneighbo> we call them wars
<nickr> people are terrorists because they don't have the resources to be in open war
<neilt> we are a convienent enemy and it does not matter about our policies or practices
<Mr_You> war != terrorism
<dneighbo> but i do not believe in either case it was official declaration of war
<Mr_You> nickr: no war usually involves military only
<dneighbo> neilt i agree with your point to a certain degree as well
<chillywilly> this is no the same america my ancestors died for so I am not being unamerican either just america isn't what it used to be or should be and others hate us for pushing our might around
<dneighbo> so there was no revolutionary war Mr_You ?
<Mr_You> military fighting against military
<Mr_You> dneighbo: give me a break
<dneighbo> as that was a war of citizens vs military?
<dneighbo> perhaps they were terrorists
<dneighbo> i mean they used non conventional fighting methods at that time
<Mr_You> lets try to use common sense or I'm leaving
<jcater> I'm sure we were terrorists in Britain's eyes
<dneighbo> to defeat the british because they didnt have the numbers or arsenal the brits did
<jcater> Mr_You: it's nothing personal
<dneighbo> Mr_You im trying to understand your position
<nickr> W ewee most certainly terrorists to the british
<Mr_You> dneighbo: ask your question
<dneighbo> it appears your position is if its your side its ok
<dneighbo> if its not your side its not ok
<dneighbo> btw: this is not personal for me either
<jcater> if it was from the palestinian liberation front, what do we think the "liberation front" part means?
<Mr_You> well I have no idea what the argument is now sense its been brought back to the revolutionary war
<dneighbo> i brought that up
<chillywilly> it is the state of america
<dneighbo> because you stated war could only consiste of two military bodies
<dneighbo> i was disagreeing and siting the revolutionary war as an example
<Mr_You> you guys keep eggin that the U.S. is just as bad as the terrorist.. thats what I 'm reading
<nickr> revolutinary war did consist of military bodies
<Mr_You> that this was provoked
<nickr> the continental military
<dneighbo> im not saying they are just as bad
<Mr_You> DIRECTLY PROVOKED
<dneighbo> saying i see what motivated the terrorist
<dneighbo> that doesnt mean its right, but i understand
<dneighbo> example
<dneighbo> if someone raped a friends wife
<jcater> Mr_You: I never argued that it was DIRECTLY provoked, only provoked
<Mr_You> sure I understand why those damn idiots commit their crimes..
<dneighbo> i could UNDERSTAND him killing the attacker
<dneighbo> i cant say i think its the right thing to do
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<dneighbo> but i can UNDERSTAND it
<dneighbo> so i think this act of terrorism is horrible
<dneighbo> should be punished for it
<dneighbo> etc
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> guy on TV just said he was not surprised
<dneighbo> but i cant say, 'golly beave, i dont get it why they doing this'
<chillywilly> lol
<dneighbo> i dont agree with why they are doing it
<chillywilly> gee wally I don't get it either
<jcater> omg, dneighbo and I are on same page with something... that's scary
<dneighbo> but i understand to a degree thier vantage point
<Mr_You> I don't think anyone is really "surprised", but they are "surprised" that it has happen today Sept 11, 2001
<neilt> chillywilly: but he said that after the fact, not before
<neilt> lol
<neilt> what a bunch of crap
<neilt> tv that is
<dneighbo> jcater we really do need those neural connectors checked :)
<jcater> Mr_You: that's not the attitude I get around town
<Mr_You> we've all heard about biological weapons, etc, etc.. no one should be truely surprised
<jcater> Mr_You: most ppl are genuinely "surprised"
<Mr_You> jcater: I would say they are more shocked
<Mr_You> jcater: or maybe they live in a bubble
<jcater> Mr_You: I commonly call it "denial"
<dneighbo> Mr_You i agree with jcater here
<dneighbo> i think the first thing is people are suprised
<dneighbo> they say i dont get it we didnt do anything to anyone
<nickr> Well its hard for people to believe imperminance, violence, death, etc
<Mr_You> well lets just analyze this till its dead
<dneighbo> 'ie they arent reading in the paper we are ready to go to war'
<neilt> i feel sad, and shocked, but not as bad as i would if i lived in the mideast right now!
<nickr> they have to put these things out of their mind to live
<neilt> everything comes full circle
<Mr_You> who in the world would not be surprised that 4 planes would be hijacked to crash into buildings??!
<dneighbo> Mr_You i think its different
<dneighbo> i think everyone should be shocked
<dneighbo> and horrified
<Mr_You> many in the US are not really "surprised" when an embassy gets bombed..
<dneighbo> but then after the wow i cant believe that happened
<dneighbo> i think people were and are still mystified at why anyone would do this
<Mr_You> its the complete design of the plan that is surprising
<dneighbo> thats the part im saying with a little insight into world politics should not be a shocker
<neilt> dneighbo: not mistified, justed pissed
<dneighbo> yes lots are just pissed
<dneighbo> i read local message boards
<dneighbo> i think we will be in a state of war very soon
<chillywilly> ppl are hurt, angry, and shocked
<nickr> the problem is who will we be at war *with*?
<dneighbo> and why i said i hope its a mcviegh type group that is local to this country
<Mr_You> sometimes you have to look beyond what people are saying..
<dneighbo> so that we can just prosecute and execute
<Mr_You> if someone says they are "surprised" that could mean about 10 different things
<nickr> I fear for the people of Palistine :(
<Mr_You> nickr: why?
<dneighbo> and not go to a more sophisticated and deadly war that we lose innoncent lives on both sides
<chillywilly> or Afghanistan
<nickr> Mr_You: because they are the obvious scapegoats
<nickr> Mr_You: and they have been so abused by Isreal
<Mr_You> nickr: scaprgoats from who?
<dneighbo> if its the one faction i feel for afgahnastan
<chillywilly> war solves nothing I don't want any  more ppl killed
<Mr_You> dneighbo: war?!?!
<Mr_You> there is no way a war will come out of this
<dneighbo> as because thier govt chooses to hide him
<Mr_You> unless you want to call us going and blowing up benladen
<dneighbo> their citizens will pay
<Mr_You> which I don't consider a war..
<nickr> dneighbo: also very true
<Mr_You> thats a defensive attack
<Mr_You> dneighbo: that will all play out in the future..
<dneighbo> btw:
<dneighbo> The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
<Mr_You> dneigbo: we busted up his camp before.. just missed our targets.. its time to "nuke" his ass
<dneighbo> is definition of terrorism
<dneighbo> the US by this definitino engages in terrorism frequently
<nickr> dneighbo: indeed.
<dneighbo> A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties. 
<dneighbo> is definition of war
<Mr_You> by what "force" and "violence"?
<dneighbo> as you stated going over and bombing them is war
<dneighbo> even if it is in defense
<dneighbo> its war
<Mr_You> by that definition.. the U.S. going an proactively attacking a "terrorist organization" is not a terrorist attivity
<dneighbo> that was my vietnam point
<dneighbo> no one here called it a 'war'
<dneighbo> but it certainly was 
<dneighbo> and is called that now that its history
<dneighbo> at the time it was a 'conflict'
<Mr_You> I'm not talking about vietnam
<dneighbo> i guess my position
<dneighbo> is we cant say we necessarily have 'clean' hands
<dneighbo> its not like we were sitting on the corner and minding our own business
<Mr_You> indirectly
<dneighbo> and all of a sudden wham the bully hits us with a bat
<Mr_You> not directly
<neilt> you can only have clean hands if you live in a clean world
<dneighbo> once again i will not say i condone this groups actions
<chillywilly> we should be speaking softly and carrying a big stick not being niosy and bashing ppl over the head at every turn
<neilt> in reality
<dneighbo> in any way shape or form
<Mr_You> chilly: far more complicated
<dneighbo> nor am i saying directly the us acted incorrectly
<dneighbo> just saying perceptions by others may see it differently
<neilt> most people dont like reality though
<dneighbo> neilt considering we could probably overthrow most nations and make them bow to us
<dneighbo> and we dont
<dneighbo> says a lot about our nation in reality
<Mr_You> oh greeezz
<dneighbo> what is the oh geez
<dneighbo> i figured you would agree with that
<Mr_You> you gotta be kidding
<dneighbo> im stating for the most part US
<dneighbo> stays of peoples way
<dneighbo> unless they feel directly threatened
<dneighbo> or asked to intervene
<Mr_You> the U.S. has never had a possibly of just overthrowing most nations and making them bow to us hahaha
<dneighbo> Mr_You i disagree
<Mr_You> see ya later
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<dneighbo> now doing them all at once i would say no way
<chillywilly> he's so open minded
<dneighbo> but doing one at a time certainly
<dneighbo> guess im crazy
<chillywilly> nah
<dneighbo> it was never personal
<dneighbo> shame i like debating
<chillywilly> Mr_You is just not one for debates
<chillywilly> I like it too
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater tries to avoid debates
<dneighbo> i figured you went to the doctor
<jcater> who?
<dneighbo> after finding agreed with masta on a political issue, probably was thinking they took a little too much blood this morning :)
<jcater> yip
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<dneighbo> either you or jamest get to look at that master/detail inside one table issue?
Action: jcater does not hold popular views in my area of country :)
<dneighbo> yah rebel.....
<chillywilly> jcater: ;)
<dneighbo> pun intended
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<Mr_You> prime minister just said this has nothing to do with israel.. uggh
<Mr_You> stupid politicians
<jamest> for what it's worth
<jamest> I can see it as a retailitory strike in the eyes of foreigners (if it was a foreign group, we don't really know)
<Mr_You> in their eyes yes, because they see civilian attacks as an everyday event
<Mr_You> in their minds , we are the devil
<davi> Maybe I arrive late and this is a off-topic. Anyway, what effects on FreeSoftware (economy) and FD will arise by the attack cause?
<jamest> last I knew the WTC was a major hub of the econimic engine that enables american children to enjoy their happy meal toy while riding in the back of an SUV
<jamest> while the children of several countries slave away in service of that engine
<davi> Interesting point of view jamest
<davi> What about the RMS, Tony, etc conference?
<Mr_You> jamest: thats to an extreme
<davi> Will stop the world to work?  
<jamest> Mr_You?
<jamest> why?
<Mr_You> jamest: obviously child labor is a problem, but the WTC has some purpose besides child labor
<Mr_You> causing child labor
<dneighbo> i think to them its a 'symbol'
<Mr_You> its easy to spin something as negative
<dneighbo> much like microsoft is a symbol for the free osftware movement
<jcater> well, it's just like us and Microsoft... they are a symbol
<Mr_You> or positive
<dneighbo> is microsoft the only one oppressing software users?
<dneighbo> hell no
<chillywilly> ppl are resetful because we are so selfish...I am sure they are
<jcater> dow... dneighbo beat me to it :)
<dneighbo> but they there 'symbol' for what it is to oppress software users
<chillywilly> resentful
<Mr_You> chilly: an example of this selfishness?
<jcater> having a gulf war to protect our precious oil supply?
<Mr_You> uhh.. and maybe a small country?
<jcater> having an outrage over price of oil when oil has not in any way kept up w/inflation
<Mr_You> from an idiot dictator with biological weapons?  makes sense to me
<chillywilly> but f you want help from america that helps comes witha  shit load of political strings
<dneighbo> honestly the WTC is interesting target
<dneighbo> as it hurts more than america
<dneighbo> you must realize these buildings house most of the major world banks
<dneighbo> i.e. deustche bank, suisse credit etc etc
<dneighbo> in essence they are hitting a world source for economy flow
<dneighbo> they are hitting the economy engine
<Mr_You> dneighbo: probably went for publicity included.. 
<dneighbo> i hope you realize the impact of shutting down all US stock trading
<dneighbo> it hurts more than just us
<Mr_You> yeah its crazy
<dneighbo> the UK stock exchange fell more than like 400 points
<dneighbo> in a single 3 hour span
<Mr_You> freezing the stock market might not be too bad haha
<dneighbo> thats more than it has tumbled in like 40 years
<jamest> Mr_You: our polution spreds to other countries yet we don't care, we push to "save" the rainforests yet loging in US is going strong
<dneighbo> crude oil in thier market went from like 27 to 35 a barrel in like 40 minutes
<jamest> Mr_You: we consume 80% of the world resources
<Mr_You> jamest: US forest and rainforests are a bit different
<jamest> how so?
<Mr_You> jamest: our population "spreads" we are humans.. humans roam.. we have a SHIT LOAD of legal and illegal immigrants
<jamest> what right do I have to tell country A that they can't use their natural resources the way they see fit
<Mr_You> jamest: rain forests are much more precious because of the rare findings in them.. 
<jamest> when I do what I like with my resources
<Mr_You> jamest: the number of species in a rain forest is FAR GREATER than your average U.S. forest
<nickr> rainforests are destroyed forever
<jamest> and there were no such rare findings in the forests of america before they were cleared
<jamest> ?
<nickr> US forests can largely be recovered
<Mr_You> its a big difference
<jamest> except for minor things like the spotted owls eh?
<Mr_You> you just can't compare, sorry
<jamest> its the same side of the coin IMHO
<jamest> why?????
<jamest> we got where we are by using our resources
<jamest> we tell them not to
<Mr_You> yes, the spotted owl might have to die at the expense of a rare cure for a disease that might be found in the rain forest
<jamest> that's selfish
<Mr_You> its life
<nickr> er
<jamest> sigh, you were the one asking for examples of american selfishness
<Mr_You> nothing is perfect, but we can make an effort
<jamest> i gave you one such example
<Mr_You> jamest: thats not a good example.. rain forest and U.S. forests are different
<jamest> yeah, one is ours to exploit  the other isnt'
<jamest> only a few americans actually want to do a fair solution
<jamest> by purchasing the land so they can  dictate usage 
<jamest> instead of painting the 3rd world country as insensitive to the environment
<Mr_You> I don't know anyone who does that
<Mr_You> actually you could say their insensitive, but they have needs just anyone else
<jamest> right!
<jamest> thats my point
<jamest> they have needs that we aren't helping meet
<Mr_You> yeah, but we need an exmaple of U.S. selfishness ;-)
<jamest> yet we want them to stop cutting the forests
<jamest> which they cut to meet their needs
<Mr_You> I wouldn't say thats a U.S. thing.. the world generally wants the rainforest
<jcater> well, the natural resource examples should meet your needs of an example... we have forests, crude oil,...
<dneighbo> yes natural resources perfect example
<dneighbo> our country has finite amoutn of crude oil
<dneighbo> we consume WAY more than we have
<Mr_You> but we buy it
<dneighbo> so then we bully countries with surpluses
<Mr_You> umm.. no
<dneighbo> and get angry when they drive up price
<jcater> Mr_You: at an extremely unfair price
<Mr_You> we work with OPEC
<dneighbo> the easy answer
<dneighbo> dont consume more than we can produce and the problem goes away
<Mr_You> OPEC determines the price for the most part
<dneighbo> of course we are spoiled americans and we will be dmaned if we cut our energy consumption
<dneighbo> unelss we are FORCED to
<Mr_You> if anything.. thats the selfish seller.. 
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<Mr_You> greedy for our money
<dneighbo> 'ie rolling blackouts'
<dneighbo> 'ie gas costs so high we wont pay'
<jcater> Mr_You: it has in no way kept up with inflation
<Mr_You> jcater: its at its cheapest cost in years compared to inflation
<dneighbo> so because someone has something you want, but you dont have anythign he wants
<dneighbo> he's the selfish one?
<Mr_You> umm.. dude
<Mr_You> he wants our money
<dneighbo> so the crack addict that cant afford his fix
<dneighbo> and robs me
<dneighbo> to get the money
<jcater> no, we want their resources
<dneighbo> i should blame the drug dealer right?
<jamest> we _KNOW_ our polution levels are above other countries, we _KNOW_ our polution rains down upon other countries, but we're not willing to do a dman thing about it
<Mr_You> derek.. obviously they want our money
<dneighbo> i mean he is the selfish one right?
<dneighbo> cause he wants teh crack addicts money?
<Mr_You> jamest: we are doing things about it..
<Mr_You> jamest: we didn't sign a world agreement because it appeared unfair
<jcater> Mr_You: we are all show compared with what we expect OTHERS to do
<Mr_You> as it is
<jamest> lol
<jamest> unfair!
<dneighbo> Mr_You btw: i agree the oil dealer is being selfish in wanting to 'drive' cost
<jamest> we're the major source of polution
<jamest> we should have to clean up the most
<Mr_You> dneighbo: its OPEC DUDE!
<dneighbo> but i believe we are being selfish in demanding to get soemthign for virtually nothign that is not a 'necessity'
<Mr_You> OPEC rules oil prices!!
<Mr_You> and production!
<jcater> jamest: but it is not economical for us to clean up
<jamest> OPEC
<Mr_You> dneighbo: umm.. oiil is necessity it runs our country
<Mr_You> and we pay for it
<jamest> the whole middle east is annother example of american (and IIRC britsh) selfishness
<jcater> oil is a necessity only because we want it to be
<Mr_You> so natural resources isn't the a good example ;-)
<Mr_You> I can see us being selfish when there is conflict and we want influence
<jamest> IIRC a lot of the country borders over there were drawn up by brittan and US to encourge countries to not get along
<jamest> after we stepped in to help them out
<Mr_You> I would say U.S. is VERY selfish when it comes to influence
<dneighbo> Mr_You how can oil be a necessity?
<dneighbo> it is a luxury
<dneighbo> civilations thrived w/o it in the past
<Mr_You> because logistics of business
<dneighbo> just like electricy is a luxury
<Mr_You> in todays world
<dneighbo> not a necessity
<jamest> in any case we're also a very giving people in times of need
<dneighbo> even in todays world it is a luxury
<jcater> jamest: as long as they agree with us :)
<Mr_You> in todays world electricity is very much a necessity
<dneighbo> case in point
<dneighbo> poeple in africa have no electricity and seem to be able to survive
<dneighbo> or south america
<Mr_You> all software companies would not function with electricity
<Mr_You> with out
<dneighbo> it might not be 'pleasant' living compared to what we are used to
<jcater> then electricity is a necessity for "software companies"
<jamest> but we manipulate countries to meet our needs w/o regard to their ways
<dneighbo> Mr_You last time i checked computers were not vital to nourshiment, shelter 
<jamest> just because we use money instead of a gun doesn't make us without guilt
<Mr_You> jcater: which in turn employ thousands and provide society to continue
<dneighbo> ok employ thousands
<dneighbo> what is 'money'
<Mr_You> dneighbo: living in the stone age is not an option today
<dneighbo> is money necessary?
<dneighbo> no?
<dneighbo> i grow a garden in my back yard today
<dneighbo> and could easily raise livestock
<Mr_You> this is a modern world.. can't compare it to living in the stonage
<dneighbo> to sufficiently feed my family of 5
<dneighbo> w/o electricity or money
<dneighbo> it wouldnt be pretty or fun
<dneighbo> and certainly would be different
<Mr_You> dneighbo: mean while, someone has come and robbed and killed you're entire family to take over your land/house :-P
<dneighbo> but it certainly is doable
<dneighbo> my grandparents lived on a farm until last 10 years
<Mr_You> cause thats what would happen if your scenario suddenly came to relization
<dneighbo> that didnt have 'running water'
<dneighbo> only a well
<jcater> electricity or money might be a necessity for our current culture to survive, but not a necessity for us to survive, if that makes sense
<dneighbo> and pretty much grandfather didnt work
<dneighbo> lived off his land
<dneighbo> jcater exactly
<Mr_You> jcater: I assumed that obvious
<dneighbo> i think it would be a rash culture shock
<jamest> my_you: you're assuming no electricy = anarchy
<dneighbo> one most woudl not like to handle
Action: Mr_You is realistic.
<dneighbo> but certainly people could live (i.e. not die) due to lack of oil
<dneighbo> but im not even going that far
<dneighbo> my original statement
<dneighbo> dont consume MORE than we can produce
<Mr_You> jamest: no... I'm assuming by the time we are living with cows and gardens.. the crime rate has shot up dramaticly
<dneighbo> last i checked we could produce a fair amount
<dneighbo> just not enough to keep up with our OUTRAGEOUS comsumption
<jamest> why?
<dneighbo> jamest : mr you has never been to witchita :)
<jcater> my parents just left the city to live with cows and a garden
<jcater> they don't even lock up their house at night
<Mr_You> jamest: because most people don't/can't live with cows and a garden?
<jamest> crime rates are higher in the big cities
<Mr_You> and that would completely freak out most people.. hence crime rate rises
<dneighbo> Mr_You i think your point is taken that if electricity were immediately shut off
<dneighbo> urban areas would probably expect some anarchy
<jamest> there would be short term chaos
<dneighbo> but think
<dneighbo> what good is a hiested stereo
<Mr_You> dneighbo: no, my point is that if we are living with cows and gardens that are society has completely collapsed.. I doubt many will take this lightly
<jamest> but in general we'd probably work less each day and live in small clusters
<dneighbo> TV
<dneighbo> etc
<dneighbo> if you didnt have electricy?
<Mr_You> what good is a COP without electricity?
<dneighbo> um
<dneighbo> you never been to tombstone AZ :)
<dneighbo> back in teh wild west
<dneighbo> they had sheriff's
<dneighbo> w/o electricity
<Mr_You> doesn't mean someone won't come into your house and kill your family and cow?  ;-)
<dneighbo> human nature will always produce one or two bad seeds
<dneighbo> Mr_You thats possible with electricy
<dneighbo> so i see no relevance
<Mr_You> doesn't mean crime will drop.. considering average home has no gun.. I'd say its likely to rise
<jamest> WHY?
<jamest> long term why would it rise?
<dneighbo> i would expect crime would remain similar
<jamest> right now we spend less time with each other not more
<Mr_You> its not obvious that a collapse in society == a rise in crime?
<dneighbo> possibly drop as things would be harder to get away with
<Mr_You> jamest: no jobs, etc, etc..
<dneighbo> much harder to rob a bank w/o a get a way car
<dneighbo> etc etc
<jamest> a collaspe in TODAYS society would = a short term rise in crime
<jamest> long term there would be no difference or maybe less crime
<dneighbo> jamest : i agree
<jamest> today houses are built without front porches
<dneighbo> anarchy to start w/ a fall out soon after once tehy realize that its not 'gaining' them anything
<jamest> look at per electric american houses (that isn't that long ago on the timeline)
<jamest> huge front porches 
<dneighbo> i.e. if i go and steal my neighbors food or the grocery store
<dneighbo> once im out of food im screwed
<jamest> people gathered, families lived close to one another, communities were tight
<dneighbo> someone must 'produce' it
<jamest> all of this w/o electricity
<dneighbo> therefore it becomes un advantegeous for me to destroy those producing things
<Mr_You> I dunno.. lots of people without jobs is a logical rise in crime to me
<jamest> why would you have a loss in jobs
<dneighbo> Mr_You we agree there, just that it would be short term
<Mr_You> dneighbo: short term being 4-6 years
<dneighbo> i assume jobs would just shift
<dneighbo> you might not find a computer job
<jamest> manual labor would require more workforce to support the same population
Action: Mr_You can't even imagine the "shift" 
<dneighbo> for example but there would be much more 'production' labor available
<Mr_You> going idle 
<jcater> Mr_You: there has been a shift in last decade or so
<dneighbo> how do you think farmers feel now?
<jcater> or factory workers
<dneighbo> with the shift going to high tech trade?
<jcater> (or computer programmers :)
<Mr_You> jcater: in this scenario "shift" is very inappropriate
<dneighbo> jcater yes or factory workers?
<Mr_You> jcater: more like collapse
<dneighbo> you think the railroad didnt collapse with invent of air travel and with highways?
<jcater> or, look at the shift leading up to the railroad
<dneighbo> when the railroad collapsed
<dneighbo> it killed iron and steel factories
<dneighbo> and the assembly line
<Mr_You> did crime rise during the depression?
<dneighbo> killed most manufacturing processes
<dneighbo> by the way i think we can safely say these are educational type discussions i dont think anyone is advocating we not have electricity
<dneighbo> though we could perhaps all be better more efficient consumers of it
<Mr_You> stock market closed through wed
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<Mr_You> they purposely chose big planes
<dneighbo> Mr_You if i was trying to smash big buildings
<dneighbo> i would choose big planes
<dneighbo> but thats just me :)
<Mr_You> I was just stating a fact, yeah its obvious
<Mr_You> its just interesting to know all the details
<dneighbo> yes interesting indeed
Action: dneighbo wants to know
<dneighbo> how can florida have a system that cna tell criminals 
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> our major airports cant tell terrorists?
<dneighbo> im talking POST events
<dneighbo> ie. from security footage
<dneighbo> passenger lists etc
<dneighbo> is our intelligence so poor at this point
<dneighbo> that we really 'dont' know who did this?
<dneighbo> if we dont know we are a sad country
<dneighbo> if we do know and its not being disclosed
Action: jamest wants to know when the made for tv movie  "Death towers fall" will be out
<dneighbo> im wondering who the american public should really be angred at
<jamest> I give the industry about a year
<dneighbo> jamest: several people here have said this
<jcater> jamest: 2 weeks from wednesday at 7:00
<dneighbo> which is just sick
<dneighbo> but its so evident of our culture
<jamest> that's why I brought it up :)
<dneighbo> btw: sick that they make the movies not sick that people joke about it :)
<Mr_You> americans should be angry with palesteniens who caused the issues at the racist conference.. and the terrorist 
<jcater> just as we should be angry with israel for being racist
<Mr_You> from what the media has presented to us
<Mr_You> racist: what are the details of those claims?
<Mr_You> jcater I mean oh
<Mr_You>  heh
<jcater> ?
<jcater> Mr_You: you just summarized another one of my peeves w/our culture:
<jcater> "from what the media has presented to us"
<Mr_You> I don't know the details of the racist claims against israel.. there are "too many" jews in office than not jews?
<Mr_You> jcater: oh same here completely and it must be stated often
<Mr_You> thats the only real claim that I hear against israel being racist
<Mr_You> only one that the media has mentioned
<Mr_You> which is a reasonable accusation, but the media presented the racist conference as an Israel is racist conference (palasteniens mentioned as accusers)
<Mr_You> which pissed off the U.S.
<Mr_You> which brings us to our earlier discussion of provokation
<dneighbo> bbl
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<jcater> brb
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<Mr_You> the last building just collapsed
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<reinhard> Mr_You: which one?
<Mr_You> building "7" of the trade center
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> hey
<reinhard> following your discussions is really interesting
<reinhard> seeing what different points of view exist inside the U.S.
<reinhard> the internet is so weird
<reinhard> all local news stations were fighting for getting anybody of the U.S. on the phone
<reinhard> and i was talking with 3 americans over irc just as it happened
<reinhard> people are talking about Osama bin Laden having organized this
<jcater> we are definitely an opinionated group :)
<reinhard> you hear about that?
<Mr_You> yeah.. his time is up
<jcater> yeah, we are hearing that too
<reinhard> now that is really weird
<reinhard> if it was really him
<Mr_You> wh?
<reinhard> you know whose money it was which founded the attack?
<Mr_You> funded the training for the attack?
<Mr_You> etc?
<reinhard> yes
<Mr_You> lots of people
<reinhard> he is a saudi arabic billionaire
<Mr_You> but you have a name?
<reinhard> osama bin laden
<reinhard> all his money comes from (drum roll)
<Mr_You> yeah, but he gets funded from some leaders/billionaires
<reinhard> americans buying petrol
<jamest> I GOT IT!
<Mr_You> reinhard: its funneled, he doesn't own any oil companies AFAIK
<jamest> wasn't this whole thing an episode of that crappy TV show "The Lone Gunmen" spinoff from Fox
<jamest> where the american military did it be keep their budgets high?
<reinhard> jamest: iirc orson welles did something similar once
<reinhard> he broadcast about an invasion from space in radio
<reinhard> and all people thought it was real
<jamest> no I mean that's where idea came from
<reinhard> ah
<jamest> I swear that is the same building they were going to hit in the tv show
<Mr_You> it does make you wonder, in respect to what derek was saying.. if we had not become dependent solely on foreign oil, if funding would have been available..
<jamest> it was a really bad show
<reinhard> Mr_You: i don't know about bin laden, but i can't imagine where a saudi arabic should get his billions from
<Mr_You> but bin laden is in trouble..
<jamest> IF he did it
<jamest> we don't know
<reinhard> Mr_You: sorry but from an outside point of view
<jamest> for all we know it was some pissed off airline pilots
<Mr_You> well the rumors are flying...
<reinhard> it's not bin laden who is in trouble actually imho
<jamest> and then if we can every catch him
<Mr_You> "Officials: Strong indication bin laden involved"
<Mr_You> rumor air tower over heard middle eastern accent during struggle
<Mr_You> reinhard: thats who we have been targeting.. we missed last time
<Mr_You> catch him?  we just blow him up
<Mr_You> afghanistan didn't do jack
<reinhard> Mr_You: bin laden is not the devil
<Mr_You> reinhard: you said it
<reinhard> and if you kill him you won't extinguish hell
<Mr_You> reinhard: he's the leader of a terrorist group..
<reinhard> not sure if you understand me
<reinhard> you never solve a problem by killing somebody
<Mr_You> reinhard: obviously, but it may put a dent in organized activities
<reinhard> this is just what the others are trying to
<reinhard> Mr_You: or even provoke more
<Mr_You> there will be another bin laden.. but right now he is symbol just as U.S. citizens are
<jcater> so you are saying we should make an example out of him???
<Mr_You> he is a symbol to his people
<reinhard> yeah
<Mr_You> the U.S. attitude toward terrorist is for them to be dead
<reinhard> he would become a great martyrian
<jamest> Lets buy him a pony!
<Mr_You> its really wide open for the U.S. to target a single individual in regards to terrorist activity
<jamest> Then he'll like us!
<jcater> let's give him a big hug
<Mr_You> reinhard: yeah.. yet another martyr
<jcater> everyone needs a hug
<Mr_You> its just like an army.. you can damage the army.. its up to the people to make the change tho..
<jamest> hmmmm....maybe a prostitute too
<Mr_You> hehe
<jamest> relive some of that tension
<jcater> well, ya never know
<jamest> ooooo
<jamest> we'll find one with herpes 
<jamest> that way it'd never get pinned back on us
<Mr_You> I wish they would stop comparing it to perl harbor
<jcater> didn't you know... herpes is a disease the US cultivated to get back at <insert any minority group here>
<jcater> j/k
<reinhard> jcater: lol
<Mr_You> reinhard: the hard part is watching it unfold on TV
<reinhard> Mr_You: it must be hard for you
<reinhard> i think it's hitting you americans just into your heart
<Mr_You> I dunno.. just as hard as watching any other event suddenly kill thousands of people before your eyes
<reinhard> i would really like to know
<reinhard> what strikes you hardest
<Mr_You> the minimum number is 10k people so far
<reinhard> the fact that thousands died
<reinhard> the fact that nobody (fbi/cia) knew heck about it
<jamest> what gets me was today in class teacher mentioned it
<Mr_You> the first of course..
<Mr_You> the U.S. Airports are not secure at all
<jamest> alot of the class didn't seem to care
<reinhard> the fact that like 12 people can get 2 of 3 biggest cities down to their knees
<reinhard> jamest: this is crazy
<reinhard> not sure if this is because i consider you (jamest/derek/chilly/neilt/etc) who are americans as some sort of frieds
<reinhard> but for 7 hours i can't think of much else
<reinhard> than why this had to happen
<Mr_You> if arafat did more for his people and worked towards peace people might care more about living life than fighting for a life
<reinhard> Mr_You: not sure if you have this saying in english, too
<jcater> omg, I was just told gas here has risen to $5/gallon
<reinhard> it needs two planks to make up a cross
<Mr_You> jcater: haha
<jcater> haha?
<reinhard> jcater: yes bin laden needs money again
<reinhard> j/k
<reinhard> sorry probably not funny
<Mr_You> reinhard: it is true.. Israel is a part of it
<Mr_You> jcater: why would that happen?
Action: jcater rides a bike
<jcater> fear
<reinhard> jcater: yes this is true
<jcater> no other reason
<reinhard> imagine when gulf war started
<reinhard> here in austria you didn't get any flour in the shops
<reinhard> as people bought like crazy
<Mr_You> if gas doubled in price, now that would be interesting
<reinhard> out of fear
<reinhard> when the war was some 1000 miles from us
<Mr_You> 1000 miles isn't too far away
<reinhard> people can be so unlogical
<reinhard> some 1000 miles
<Mr_You> but we have the same thing happen when there's a snow storm warning ;-))
<reinhard> not 1000 miles
<Mr_You> 1000 km? ;-)
<reinhard> like between you and brasilia or something like that
<Mr_You> ok
Action: reinhard is not good at estimating distances
<reinhard> Mr_You: look it up yourself ;)
<Mr_You> me either really
<Mr_You> no milk or bread when snow storm warning comes.. even if its just a little 
<reinhard> must go look if something's new on tv
<Mr_You> the people were jumping out of the building :-(((
<jamest> figures
<jamest> they'll use anything to jack up the prices?
<jamest> ?  = .
<Mr_You> gotta be dumb to buy into that
<jcater> My favorite movie quote... "A person is smart. People are dumb."
<jcater> gotta run
<jcater> (with gas prices, that may be more accurate than I realize :)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> l8r
<reinhard> crap
<Mr_You> we were joking how our intl airport has one commercial intl flight to: canada
<reinhard> us army is bombing afghanistan now
<reinhard> just saw on cnn
<jcater> what?
<Mr_You> hehehe. it does have many commercial flights tho
<jcater> are you serious?
<reinhard> they are not sure what it is
<reinhard> but there are a lot of explosions in kabul
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<reinhard> which is the capital of afghanistan
Action: reinhard thinks jcater just ran to his tv
<Mr_You> yeah I see
Action: reinhard goes back to tv, too
<Mr_You> that would be awesome if we retaliated so soon
<Mr_You> I dunno why we would hit the capital of afghanistan tho
<jamest> it wouldn't be awesome!!!!
<Mr_You> why?
<jamest> the last thing we want is for this thing to build momentum
<Mr_You> hehe.. true..
<Mr_You> makes good tv tho
<jamest> nukes and bioweapons aren't exactly limited in availability
<jamest> foo hits bar
<jamest> bar hits foo
<jamest> george desides nows the time to smack ben
<jamest> WW3
<jamest> ok, that's a stretch
<Mr_You> bin laden has issued denials
<jamest> but still we don't want it to build
<jamest> reinhard: you're serious about the bombings?
<jamest> confirmed from US planes?
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<Mr_You> no not confirmed
<derek> for those that dont have tv
<jamest> tv's too slow
<Mr_You> they have said anti-aircraft activity
<jamest> we have reinhard
<derek> afgahnastan is getting the crap bombed out of it
<derek> im getting live feed
<derek> and its like watching starwars
<derek> pitch black
<jamest> who's doing the bombing?
<derek> and just streaks of white and red
<Mr_You> why are they being bombed?
<derek> jamest: they havent said
<derek> started on the feed with about one bomb per minute
<derek> were reporting it was the airport in kabul
<jamest> flashbacks of the CNN footage from IRAQ
<derek> then like 3 minutes ago
<derek> holy flurry of bombs
<derek> like the mother load
<Mr_You> jamest: it is just like that on CNN live
<derek> the city started to light up like a christmas tree
<derek> they have not confirmed that it was US
<jamest> please don't be us
<Mr_You> hmm.. thats weird..
<derek> it is apparent that it was definitely bombs/missiles
<derek> and apparent they were returning anti aircraft
<derek> all i can say is if it us
<derek> they better level them
<derek> i mean level level them
<derek> like all night long until a building isnt standing level them
<Mr_You> level the terrorist... they shouldn't attack the gov't so much...
<jamest> sigh, must leave now
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<derek> im not trying to be cold hearted
<Mr_You> they are saying it could be the civil war
<derek> im just saying if we 'flex' muscle
<derek> we need to flex it big enough that only the largest of countries would consider real retaliation
Action: derek is moving to a hut in montana till this is done
<Mr_You> I agree... I think we already flexed our muscle the first time and this time its time to take'em out
<derek> Mr_You: they are saying it could be internal civil war
<derek> who knows
<Mr_You> thats what I just said ;-)
<derek> was awful short and abrupt for US attack
<derek> Mr_You: yes was trying to confirm that not be first to say it :)
<Mr_You> what a day
<derek> reinhard: what are they saying there in austria?
<derek> i mean what is the position there?
<reinhard> they are just feeding the pictures of cnn
<derek> is US the big ugly enemy in the media thre/
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> you must consider
<derek> or is it more like worry
<reinhard> most part of western/middle europe is nato member
<Mr_You> the video is like watching a choppy real player connection
<reinhard> it is very much feeling for the victims
<derek> that it might spread into much more than just terrorist attack on US and minor retalation on said nations?
<derek> i.e. is there worry there that it could be the start of something larger than US going after a small band of terrorists?
<reinhard> derek: not yet
<reinhard> or maybe they just don't dare to say it on tv :(
<derek> ok so right now its more like audience at tennis match
<reinhard> they talk about feeling sorry for the victims
<reinhard> they talk about ridicule for fbi and cia
<derek> watching the two players go back and forth :)
<Mr_You> GW looks freaked out
<derek> yes fbi/cia/intelligence REALLY dropped the bomb big time
<derek> er ball not bomb
<derek> GW?
<reinhard> they talk about america loosing their self confidence
<derek> George W?
<Mr_You> yeah
<derek> reinhard: i dont think we have lost our confidence per say
<derek> publicly speaking
<Mr_You> reinhard: confidence in what?
<reinhard> derek: i just tell you what tv tells in europe
<reinhard> confidence that u.s. is not vulnerable per se
<derek> :)
<Mr_You> I think the confidnece in airport security has always been low
<derek> well if we ever thought we were not vulnerable we were stupid (er arrogant)
<reinhard> confidence that u.s. is _the_ powerful nation of the world
<derek> ;)
<Mr_You> reinhard: anyone who is surprised by being attacked (not by the method) hasn't been paying attention
<derek> brb must pick up daughter
<reinhard> derek: i think many people thought so
<Mr_You> I'm surprised by the method, but thinking about it, its the obvious weakness in our "security".. 
<Mr_You> cause in reality we don't really have any security..
<reinhard> back to tv
<Mr_You> no country is secure against terrorist attacks IMO
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<neilt> hello all
<neilt> reinhard: most people i have talked to are just pissed, not lost confidence
<neilt> anyone that has flown in the us and outside of the US would not be suprised
<neilt> there is no way to keep terrorist 
<neilt>  off of planes
<neilt> What we have to do now is make sure that everyone understands and feels the pain if they support terrorists
<Mr_You> it makes you wonder how they got in the cockpit tho
<neilt> have you every flown
<Mr_You> no
<neilt> the door to the cockpit is paper thin
<Mr_You> ahh
<neilt> all you need to do is push on it
<neilt> in fact you dont even need weapons
<Mr_You> I hope that changes
<neilt> all terrorists have to do is get 7 or 8 that are trained to fight with hands and there is no way a 22 year old female flight attendent is going to keep the plane from being taken over
<neilt> this is not about changing security
<Mr_You> if it were more dificult to get in the cockpit
<neilt> its now about making it very painful for countries and people that support terrorists
<Mr_You> sadly yes
<reinhard> back
<neilt> i dont want steel doors on my plains
<reinhard> neilt: just to clarify
<reinhard> derek asked me what tv news tell today
<reinhard> in europe
<reinhard> and that's what i told him
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<reinhard> it's not my personal opinion
<neilt> ahh ok
<reinhard> in fact i must say that
<reinhard> i am really happy to see you discuss here
<neilt> i have heard that 40,000 people worked in the world trade center
<reinhard> see the different opinions
<reinhard> neilt: yes here they said 50.000
<neilt> yep
<neilt> This is an attack against freedom and we should not change our open ways
<neilt> but should just swing a big stick.
<reinhard> swing a big stick?
<neilt> yes, unfortunately, it now has to be painful for those that support terrorism
<reinhard> who supports terrorism?
<reinhard> the ones who give them money
<neilt> more people just died in the US than did at perl harbor
<neilt> afghanistan, iraq, iran
<neilt> all terrorism is state supported
<Mr_You> pakistan
<MrChumple> nobody will want to paint a bullseye onto their foreheads today though
<neilt> in spite of what you here
<neilt> hear
<MrChumple> by claiming any kind of involvement...
<neilt> then make them all feel the pain
<reinhard> neilt: i come back on this what i said before
<reinhard> they get the money from oil
<reinhard> most of them
<reinhard> probably
<reinhard> iow from the people that buy the oil
<reinhard> iow from the u.s.
<neilt> they get money from governments
<reinhard> neilt: yes but those governments don't print the money themselves
<neilt> if people have oil and they sell it, there is nothing wrong with that
<neilt> but terrorism can not exist without government support
<neilt> sure it takes money
<reinhard> yes a lot
<neilt> but that does not make money bad
<neilt> there are all kinds of other things that can be done with money
<neilt> like schools
<neilt> hospitals
<reinhard> maybe i am radical saying that everybody driving a car is supporting the iraq
<neilt> etc
<reinhard> neilt: sure i agree there
<reinhard> money is nothing bad per se
<reinhard> it's bad if bad people get it
<MrChumple> --do we buy oil from iraq?_-
<neilt> so the problem is that governments
<MrChumple> I would imagine we wouldn't be buying from them...
<MrChumple> We don't even buy cigars from cuba
<reinhard> MrChumple: if not directly then indirectly
<neilt> we buy things from france and france buys oil from iraq
<reinhard> neilt: exactly
<MrChumple> It's hard to avoid that kind of purchase
<MrChumple> We'd be closing doors to many other countries...
<neilt> the purchase is not the problem
<neilt> france is not the problem
<neilt> its the government of the states that support terrorists
<reinhard> the government of those states is bad
<reinhard> their goals are wrong
<reinhard> their spirit is sick
<MrChumple> its true
<reinhard> they are trying to take over the world
<MrChumple> its hard to comprehend that kind of hate
<reinhard> we must stand together and fight them
<reinhard> so we can delete that spirit out of the world
<neilt> we = all free people regardless of local issues and other differences
<reinhard> ...
<reinhard> that was probably exactly what the terrorists were told about the u.s. before they started
<MrChumple> must be careful not to generalize that spirit onto a whole people though...
<neilt> agree, this is not a race thing
<reinhard> i hope you get my point
<neilt> its a government issue
<MrChumple> yes
<reinhard> i don't say foo is bad bar is good
<reinhard> and i don't say foo is good bar is bad
<reinhard> i say hate is bad
<reinhard> no matter who hates who
<neilt> reinhard: exactly
<MrChumple> we can all agree to that i'm sure
<reinhard> i say kill is bad
<reinhard> no matter who kills whom
<reinhard> or for what reason
<reinhard> but i'm getting on thin ice to discuss this here i guess
<neilt> live briefing from the pentagon
<reinhard> really have to get some sleep now
<reinhard> l8r all
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<derek> hello mdean
<derek> you missed a fun log of lots of politics
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Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by derek!derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net: GNU Enterprise -> Transforms To -> GNU Politics.  Will your safety come at the loss of your freedom?
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<derek> dead in here now 
<derek> guess they all found tvs :)
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<DiegoWS> hi
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<jamest> sigh
<jamest> my xchat is fried
<jamest> i can't see my typing
<jamest> but hey! looks like I may be making less typing errors!
<mdean> heh - ASSERT(LOCALECHO == SUPERFLUOUS);
<jamest> you know what is an abxolute killer
<jamest> the US wants to spend god knows how many millions on a missle defense system
<jamest> to take out icbms carring warheads that could be shipped across the border in trucks
<jamest> and these dude do an amazing amount of damage with knives and boxcutters
<jamest> anyway I'm off 
<jamest> had a nasty little suprise dumped on me tonight
<jamest> l8r
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--- Wed Sep 12 2001