[00:08] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<derek> good morning chillywilly
<chillywilly> morning?
<derek> um EARLY morning
<chillywilly> k ;)
<chillywilly> hey psalm 46 is also giid
<chillywilly> good even
<chillywilly> derek: Romans 12:18-21 is excellent too
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<derek> oh no trouble has arrived
<chillywilly> trouble just quit too :P
<derek> we had double trouble for a minue
<derek> minute
<reinhard> only for a second
<reinhard> hit the wrong starter :)
<derek> that dude is bizarro chillywilly
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> he's mental
<ajmitch> acid, my friend ;)
<ajmitch> or some other trippy substance which i do not want to get near
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> I cannot ahng aroud there anymore
<chillywilly> that guy is out of it
<ajmitch> heh
Action: derek needs sleep
<derek> see you all in morning
Action: ajmitch does too
Nick change: derek -> dnZzzz
<ajmitch> cya derek
<chillywilly> night
<ajmitch> you going too chillywilly?
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> in a little bit
<chillywilly> just saying night to derek
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<ghunt_> hi all
<chillywilly> hi
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<chillywilly> morning
<reinhard> hi
<reinhard> brb
<reinhard> got wired stuff here
<chillywilly> k
<reinhard> screen saver runs in background and doesn't stop
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<reinhard> back
<chillywilly> wb
<ajmitch> i need help
Action: ajmitch bounces off walls
<ajmitch> gnue-common won't install
<chillywilly> you do ./setup.py build
<chillywilly> ./setup.py install
<ajmitch> doesn;t work :P
<ajmitch> i told you that
<chillywilly> as root?
<ajmitch> i get python syntax erroras
<ajmitch> nope
<chillywilly> well....
<chillywilly> 1.5.2?
<ajmitch> but /usr/local is writeable by me
<ajmitch> probably
<ajmitch> yep, 1,5,2
<chillywilly> cvs?
<ajmitch> yep
<chillywilly> hmmm
<ajmitch> i blame you, chillywilly :P
<ajmitch> who else could it be?
<chillywilly> wrks for me
<chillywilly> installs that is
<ajmitch> am getting new gnue-common from cvs
<chillywilly> it is your own damn falt ;)
<chillywilly> anyway
<ajmitch> what python versio do you have (run 'python')
<chillywilly> I will got to bed now
<chillywilly> ok
<ajmitch> bah
<ajmitch> you must not sleep!
<chillywilly> danielb@obfuscation:~$ python
<chillywilly> Python 1.5.2 (#0, Apr 10 2001, 10:03:44)  [GCC 2.95.3 20010219 (prerelease)] on linux2
<chillywilly> Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam
<ajmitch> you must fix my problems!
<chillywilly> I elect reinhard to do it
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> as he just got up
<chillywilly> my shift for GNUe tech support is over
<chillywilly> :P
<ajmitch> byte-compiling /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py to DBdriver.pyc
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py", line 329
<ajmitch>     <<<<<<< DBdriver.py
<ajmitch> build worked fine tho (after doing rm -rf of the cvs dir & getting a fresh copy)
<chillywilly> conflicts?!?
<ajmitch> byte-compiling /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/_static/DBdriver.py to DBdriver.pyc
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/_static/DBdriver.py", line 32
<ajmitch>     Import string
<ajmitch>                 ^
<ajmitch> doubt it
<chillywilly> heh
<ajmitch> it's a fresh checkout :)
<chillywilly> yea, I said tat after you typed that you are too quick for me
<chillywilly> that
<chillywilly> maybe I just need to look at what I am typing sometimes ;)
<ajmitch> maybe...
<chillywilly> jvlsjndflsdfkljsldf sdjhhf sdfl;lhsd;f sl;dfjk
<chillywilly> that's arabic or something
<chillywilly> just ask the osamamessenger guy
<chillywilly> heh, you probably don't wanna talk to the loon
<chillywilly> then again
<chillywilly> you talk to me...
<chillywilly> so...
<chillywilly> :P
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> what's the difference? ;)
<chillywilly> exctly ;)
<chillywilly> exactly even
<chillywilly> there is no difference it is all in your mins
<chillywilly> mind
<ajmitch> not copying src/dbdrivers/postgresql/DBdriver.py (output up-to-date)
<ajmitch> :  File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/FormatMasks/DateMask.py", line 181
<ajmitch>     self.lastInputPos =
<ajmitch>                         ^
<ajmitch> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py", line 329
<ajmitch>     <<<<<<< DBdriver.py
<ajmitch>      ^
<ajmitch> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
Action: ajmitch smacks it around
<chillywilly> that is some really wacky stuf
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> i rm -rf'ed /usr/local/gnue
<ajmitch> and it still does it
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> I have to sleep now
<chillywilly> if you see jamest or masta, or jacater feel free to abuse them
<chillywilly> reinhard is also fun to kick around ;o
<ajmitch> k :)
<chillywilly> j/k
<chillywilly> reinhard is my pal
<chillywilly> anyway
<chillywilly> good night my friends
<reinhard> ajmitch: this means cvs is broken
<reinhard> <<<<<<<<<<
<reinhard> means cvs merge conflicts
<chillywilly> with a fresh checkout though?
<chillywilly> what did they do check in conflicts and not resolve them?
<reinhard> it actually means somebody checked in a file which had unresolved conflicts in it
<chillywilly> that's sorta gard  to do
<chillywilly> hard
<chillywilly> heh
<reinhard> not hard to do
<reinhard> you do cvs update
<reinhard> get a local copy with the conflicts in it
<reinhard> then do cvs commit
<reinhard> and voila
<ajmitch> reinhard: there's a large chunk marked out by that conflicting area
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> woops
Action: ajmitch runs cvs annotate
<chillywilly> well night
<reinhard> ajmitch: i will tell jamest/jcater if any of them appears here
<ajmitch> it appears to have been borken since august 29
<ajmitch> and it appears to be jamest
<reinhard> duh
<chillywilly> just resolve it for now
<chillywilly> :P
<ajmitch> cvs annotate gnue-common/src/dbdrivers/DBdriver.py
<chillywilly> you could be a good guy and submit a patch
<ajmitch> can't, there's a big chunk
<ajmitch> i dunno what is going on there
<reinhard> ajmitch: no use in hacking that out
<reinhard> probably jamest can fix it within minutes
<ajmitch> yep
<chillywilly> I don't even have that file
<chillywilly> danielb@obfuscation:~/src/gnue/gnue-common/src/dbdrivers$ ls
<chillywilly> CVS/         __init__.pyc  _empty/   db2/    factory.py   geas/   odbc/    postgresql/
<chillywilly> __init__.py  _dbsig/       _static/  empty/  factory.pyc  mysql/  oracle/
<ajmitch> it's in the geas dir sorry
<ajmitch> plus other files have typos in them
<chillywilly> geas?!?
<ajmitch> gnue/gnue-common/src/dbdrivers/_static/DBdriver.py has 'Import' instead of 'import'
<reinhard> geas?!?!?!?!
<reinhard> ah
<chillywilly> ok
<reinhard> geas subdir of gnue-common/src/dbdrivers
<ajmitch> gnue/gnue-common/src/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py
<ajmitch> sorry :)
<chillywilly> why don't they make sure the code runs before checking it in?
Action: ajmitch shrugs
Action: chillywilly has noticed that all of reinhard's new code compiles
<chillywilly> ajmitch: they are supposed to be hacking on the geas driver or something
<chillywilly> must've left it in a bad state
<ajmitch> but it's all over gnue-common that code fails
<reinhard> chillywilly: writing code that compiles is not hard
<reinhard> writing code that works is harder ;)
<ajmitch> src/FormatMasks/DateMask.py, for example has a line:
<ajmitch>     self.lastInputPos = 
<ajmitch> which obviously fails :)
<chillywilly> reinhard: true, but it is less annoying whn it at least compiles
<reinhard> seems like the magic "read my thoughts" module in python doesn't work always
<chillywilly> ajmitch: looks like they added a big chunk of code
<ajmitch> chillywilly: yes
<chillywilly> it should probably just stay there
<ajmitch> should i bother fixing it, or wait for them?
<chillywilly> plus
<chillywilly> the darn geas driver doesn't work anyway
<chillywilly> so you can quick fix it for now if you wanna get it running
<ajmitch> have done
<chillywilly> you an mail the list if you want to
<ajmitch> commented out the bits added by th conflict (the <<<<< bit)
<ajmitch> which list? ;)
<chillywilly> anyway I will sleep now
<chillywilly> ummmm
Action: ajmitch rolls a dice
<chillywilly> gnue-forms or gnue-discuss
<reinhard> brobably gnue-form
<reinhard> s
<ajmitch> k
<chillywilly> night
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<ajmitch> only got one error on install now (in the geas driver)
<ajmitch> i think i can leave it for now
<ghunt_> reinhard: is there a sql schema for the gnue database ?
<ghunt_> if yes, where can i find it ?
<reinhard> ghunt_: the database schema is created by geas automatically from the *.gcd files
<reinhard> if you use geas
<reinhard> if you use 2-tier you must create the tables manually
<reinhard> should be some *.sql files under gnuef
<reinhard> bb in an hour
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-lunch
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<ghunt_> reinhard: thanks
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<reinhard> jamest: can you read the logs please?
<reinhard> seems like ajmitch found some issues in gnue-common
<reinhard> wrt cvs merge conflicts
<neilt> hello all
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<jamest> argh!
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<jamest> that is nuts
<jamest> cvs isn't supposed to let conflicts get checked in
<jamest> hmmm
<jamest> as for why code doesn't run before we check it in
<jamest> jcater and myself both have several different machines we work from
<jamest> so we check in to sync machines
<jamest> which has traditionally been ok and people were ok with a broken cvs
<jamest> and = as
<jamest> hmmm , is anyone else seeing gnue-common failures?
Action: jamest has been using it w/o issue
<reinhard> gnue-common/src/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py contains <<<<<
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<jcater> morning, my homies
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<dnZzzz> i grabbed gnue-common last night and works for me :)
Nick change: dnZzzz -> derek
<derek> however jcater i have whole new list of buglets for you :)
<jcater> joy
<derek> first major one
<derek> is old bug
<derek> if you do <datasource database="Fred" >
<derek> it toasts out even if you have in your connections file Fred
<derek> if you do <datasource database="fred" >
<derek> and make fred in your connection file it works just peachy
<derek> also datasources have this problem
<derek> wrt: to foreign key's
<derek> if you have dtsrcMyData
<derek> and in foreign_key="dtsrcMyData.id"
<derek> it dont work
<derek> but if you make both dtsrcmydata it works famously
<derek> also on lookups
<derek> it appears you must do foreign_key="dtsrcmydata.id" (i.e. prefix the datasource)
<derek> which is understandable
<derek> but if you then do
<derek> foreign_key_description="dtsrcmydata.desc" it barfs
<derek> but doing
<derek> foreign_key_description="desc" works
<derek> im assuming this is because it looks at foreign key to get the data source
<jcater> that is a correct assumption
Action: jcater didn't do the foreign_key stuff :)
<derek> my suggestion is to do fk_datasource, fk_storage, fk_display (you get the idea use the names you like)
<derek> this way in designer when its more 'feature ready'
<derek> you get a list of valid datasources to pick from in fk_datasource
<derek> then once that is chosen you get valid fields only for storage/display
<derek> if that makes sense
<jcater> yip
<derek> btw: insert statements would be easiest
<derek> but if its a pain for you comma file would work
<derek> also i couldnt get wizards to work :(
<derek> BUT now that i think about it could be cause my database name was camel case
<derek> other designer buglets
<derek> using rows seems to be broken in real time
<derek> i.e. when you set rows property it doesnt update the screen but next time you open the form in desinger it does
<derek> and the last one it kind of interesting
<derek> if you have say
<derek> label
<jcater> I'm waiting for the new UI system to be in place for forms 
<derek> entry
<derek> on top of one another like this
<derek> and you highlight then both
<derek> and move them to top of form
<jcater> the current UI system doesn't easily support me dynamically changing the number of rows
<derek> and move high enough that label goes off screen
<derek> it shoves the lable under the entry (which is ok)
<derek> but then if you pull them down and start to move them the entry jumps by twos
<derek> so somehow the math logic in there when it hits a bounds gets a little 'quirky'
<derek> this is a minor bug as one shouldnt move the objects past the bounds of the form :)
<derek> will only effect unpatient bastard users 
<jcater> what error did you get w/wizards?
<derek> no errors oddly enough
<derek> just didnt create the form
<derek> let me try again
<derek> same thing
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~$ gfdes
<derek> Exception exceptions.TypeError: 'call of non-function (type None)' in <method wxImageListPtr.__del__ of wxImageList instance at 83bbc60> ignored
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~$ 
<derek> only thing ever written to console
<derek> it askes for form name : my form
<derek> connection : hcs (its valid connection)
<derek> then base table : market (its valid table in hcs db)
<derek> then it goes to screen that i cant do anything on that says
<derek> This is
<derek> text
<jcater> rofl
<derek> if i click finish there
<jcater> that is the original wizard :)
<derek> it opens another designer
<derek> whew
<derek> i did ./setup.py devel
<derek> in both designer and forms
<derek> after slurping cvs
<derek> wonder if i must WHACK ./cvsdevel
<jcater> do you have a gnue.designer somewhere else that could be in your path?
<derek> crap
<derek> i deleted cvsdevelbase
<derek> and redid setup.py problem still exists
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue/designer$ ls -l /usr/local/bin/gfdes
<derek> lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           45 Sep  8 10:11 /usr/local/bin/gfdes -> /home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/designer/client/gfdes
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/gnue/designer$ 
<derek> seems to point to righ tplace
<derek> i have to go to work (arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)
<derek> i hate getting interrupted
<derek> will tackle it tonight bye bye
Nick change: derek -> dnWork
<jamest> jcater I didn't see a working wizard
<jamest> unless you commited on Sunday
<jcater> I did
<jcater> I'll have to rename it from
<jcater> "Simple form wizard" to "Nonexistance wizard"
<jamest> ?
<jamest> yes!
<jcater> ?
<jamest> both popy and psycopg now build for me on solaris 
<jamest> now I just need to get the internal network to state users can, um, use it
<jcater> :)
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<dneighbo> im stunned
<dneighbo> after all that crap on friday
<dneighbo> no apparent security at all today
<dneighbo> worse than before the bombings
<dneighbo> and poeple allowed to park anywhere
<dneighbo> really really odd
<dtm> dneighbo: :/
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<dneighbo> http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/09/14/2048238&mode=thread
<dneighbo> is an article that sums up what this channel was discussing onthe first day of this tragedy
<dneighbo> RMS writes pretty well for a hacker 
<dneighbo> much more civilized reponse than ESR's tirade that we should all carry guns
<dneighbo> IMHO
<dneighbo> hi edmz
<edmz> hi 
<jcater> wow
<jcater> I didn't realize that was RMS at first
<jcater> he did an excellent job w/that article
<jcater> rofl
Action: jcater just caught his "and your unelected president" stab
<jamest> you mean packing heat isn't the FSF way?!?!?!??!
Action: jamest puts away his 9mm, 10mm, 357, tommy, and 12gauge automatic
<dneighbo> jamest rofl
<dneighbo> well you kansas boys and your guns, almost as bad as them dar neebreska fellers
<jamest> sad thing is i noticed that users are starting to peek their head arround my office door again
<dneighbo> jcater: i liked that 'unelected' jab too :)
<jcater> can't you borrow some barbed wire from the cattle farm next door?
<dneighbo> no i tapped out manhattan fence co last month
<dneighbo> securing the thompson compound 
<dneighbo> they were a little awed by the request for 10,000 linear feet of razor wire in rural kansas
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i think the fact the fence had to extend 50ft below the surface amazed them more
<jamest> i think the prisons stop at like 15ft or something
<dneighbo> i think the exact comment was "That must be one PISSED OFF steer you got!"
<dneighbo> my response "something like that"
<dneighbo> when jamest gets out of line i just call the fire dept
<dneighbo> tell them to hose down the hill (to flood the basement) and stop the 'digging' efforts
<dneighbo> seems he has caught on and is procuring better silicon now though :(
<jcater> no, he just married someone who can fix those things herself :)
<jcater> gotta run to lunch... bbs
Nick change: jcater -> jcLunch
<jamest>  /msg jcater shhhhh! don't give away my secret!
<dneighbo> crap w/ feds cutting rates
<dneighbo> i might be able to refi my currently 6.5 mortgage
<dneighbo> and consolidate my pool loan into it
<dneighbo> and make out like a bandit
<dneighbo> i.e take house payment and pool payment together and have be less than current housepayment 
<dneighbo> we really need to change our poll?
<dneighbo> any suggestions?
<dneighbo> For many, if not most, users of GNU/Linux, the installation of the latest (1.6.x) versions of GnuCash requires a substantial effort to install/upgrade dozens of supporting libraries. Although the effort depends on the distribution and on your experience, it has proved to be overwhelming and impossible for many, many users. Unless you feel quite confident in your abilities, and are willing to take the time to diagnose install problems 
<dneighbo> gnucash-1.6, but rather, wait until your favorite distribution includes gnucash-1.6 by default. Our sincerest apologies for this situation, but in order to bring you the latest & greatest of features, we also had to use the latest & greatest of supporting libraries, thus leading to the tremendous install difficulties. Please remember that this is a volunteer effort, and not a commercial enterprise. Either someone must volunteer to cre
<dneighbo> wait until the commercial entities address this problem. 
<dneighbo> ouch
<dneighbo> good to see them publicly announce this 
<dneighbo> as its beyond painful
<reinhard> dneighbo: gnucash is one of the best examples imho
<reinhard> of dependency hell
<dneighbo> hmmm ninth plane of dependency hell i fear
<reinhard> this is why i can't understand the argument
<dneighbo> based on my experience ATTEMPTING to get 1.6 working
<reinhard> "what? why do something about dependency xyz? you can simply apt-get it"
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> (libuuid comes to my mind quickly...)
<reinhard> ah yes and
<reinhard> orbit-python
<reinhard> pygresql
<reinhard> mysql-python
<reinhard> python at all actually
<reinhard> ...
<dneighbo> ???
<dneighbo> dependencies are necessary its a matter of getting out of hand
<dneighbo> the particular problem gnucash has is they have the latest of EVERY dependency
<dneighbo> which you cant find for all distro's
<dneighbo> and then they bitch about dependencies
<dneighbo> it would be like if python 3.0 was released tomorrow
<dneighbo> so gnue forms switched to it
<dneighbo> which would require a new wxPython, etc
<dneighbo> then you get new wxPython and it requires a new gcc and glib
<dneighbo> you grab those etc
<dneighbo> and it snowballs
Action: dneighbo doesnt think 'dependencies' are bad
<dneighbo> IMHO its about sharing software not rewritting it
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> unreasonable dependencies are bad
<dneighbo> if something exists but you have to upgrade your whole system to use it
<dneighbo> then you are better off writing your own :)
<dneighbo> if that makes sense
<dneighbo> example in our stuff
<dneighbo> multi threaded orbit exists today
<dneighbo> we dont use it even though we need it because it woudl be an unreasonable dependency
<jamest> python is no more a dependency than rpm or apt or even tar/gzip
<dneighbo> agree at this point python is like perl
<dneighbo> it pretty much is included on every distribution
<dneighbo> we are going through the debate of 1.5.2 vs 2.x
<dneighbo> which is real
<dneighbo> because currently most distro's ship with 1.5.2
<dneighbo> which would make 2.x a 'dependency' that isnt commonly installed
<dneighbo> however by time GNUe is in mature release state
<dneighbo> 2.x should be standard on most distros
<dneighbo> jamest you have any poll requests
<jamest> i had an idea for one last week
<jamest> lemme think......
Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater
<jcater> jamest: we don't pay you to think
<jcater> oh, wait... we don't pay you at all
<dneighbo> we dont pay him to eat even, much less think
Action: jamest still feels overpaid
<dneighbo> i was thinking maybe
<dneighbo> Have you downloaded and installed any GNUe components?
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> no
<dneighbo> do i have idiot written on my forehead
<jcater> 4. what'
<jcater> s gnue?
<jamest> maybe a list of components that work?
<reinhard> huh
<reinhard> do we have any?
<reinhard> ;)
<reinhard> btw i didn't mean to say _any_ dependency is bad per se
<reinhard> what i wanted to say is that the _number_ of dependencies can be bad :)
Action: jamest thought you were attacking his beloved python
<reinhard> jamest: i won't
<reinhard> at least not seriously :)
<reinhard> brb
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<dneighbo> jaemst: its too hard to list components
<dneighbo> cause we dont have check boxes
<dneighbo> i.e. you can only choose one
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<dneighbo> btw: i like what gnucash did re: thier survey
<dneighbo> some day i will build one for gnue
<dneighbo> that is more comprehensive and much better than a 'static' poll
<dneighbo> also jamest: i liked your idea of poll
<dneighbo> Should we rewrite GEAS?
<dneighbo> a. yes. in python
<dneighbo> b. yes. in python today
<dneighbo> c. yes. why wasnt it in python to begin with
<dneighbo> d. no. things tainted by C cant be rewritten
<dneighbo> e. what is geas again?  whatever it is, write it in python
<dneighbo> ;)
<reinhard> rofl
<dneighbo> i get mail from microsoft as im a 'microsoft insider'
<dneighbo> this is too funny
<dneighbo> OUTLOOK 2002 SECURITY PATCH
<dneighbo> Enhance the security of your e-mail, calendar, and contacts in Microsoft(r)
<dneighbo> Outlook 2002 with this patch, designed to prevent attackers from reading or
<dneighbo> changing these items on your computer.
<dneighbo> so reassuring to know that out of the box Outlook2002 lets pepople reading and/or changing my email, calendar or contacts
<reinhard> i'm sure outlook wasn't written in python
<reinhard> this wouldn't have happened
<dneighbo> WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER 8 VIDEO AND AUDIO CODECS
<dneighbo> Update your Microsoft(r) Windows Media(tm) Player version 6.4 or 7.0 with the
<dneighbo> video and audio codecs for version 8 for improved file compression and
<dneighbo> decompression. This utility installs the changes you need.
<dneighbo> is pretty funny too
<dneighbo> especially the last line
<dneighbo> whether you want better compression/decompression or not this utility gives you what you NEED
<dneighbo> not what you think you need, but what force you to need, so we can lock out our competitors
<dneighbo> and finally the ultimate in US marketing
<dneighbo> BE THE FIRST ON YOUR BLOCK WITH WINDOWS XP
<dneighbo> Excitement is growing over Microsoft(r) Windows(r) XP, scheduled for release
<dneighbo> worldwide on October 25. Preorder online at Amazon.com, Best Buy, and
<dneighbo> Costco.com, or through your local software retailer, including CompUSA.
<dneighbo> thats right buy XP cause it makes you look cool!
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> like its a porsche or a mercedes or something
<dneighbo> i can see the school children now
<dneighbo> 'oh you run winders 95, my dad just bought XP'
<dneighbo> 'so there, neener, neener, neener'
<dneighbo> and of course the linux children
<jcater> well, that's a fair comparison... both are over-hyped and require ungodly maintenance
<reinhard> and the third one saying
<reinhard> "my dad runs debian unstable"
<reinhard> ;)
<jcater> that's chilly's children :)
<dneighbo> 'my dad believes that giving in to capitalist pigs is beneath him we run debian gnu/linux'
<jamest> um, take a look at the windowsUpdate site
<dneighbo> jamest: url please
<jamest> you'll see win95 support being (almost) dropped
<jamest> windowsupdate.microsoft.com
<dneighbo> im REALLY suprised that m$ has not come out yet
<jamest> but you'll only see this from a win95 machine
<jamest> you have to go back to downloading patches manually
<dneighbo> and said that if the WTC and the planes and airports were using winders this could have been prevented
<reinhard> yeah
<dneighbo> (btw: supposedly the people that are doing the face scanning software are claiming this) and some senators are biting and wanting to make this part of every major place people congregrate
<reinhard> "steering_wheel.exe has caused a invalid operation exception. please restart the plane"
<dneighbo> roflmao
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Action: jamest pictures the multi-hour delays while the airport has to reinstall MS ActiveTerroristDetect with NT (Naughty Terrorist) Technology after the new kernel installed duing Windows Media Player update knocks all the metal detectors offline
<reinhard> lol
Action: dneighbo is worried, this sounds too realistic
<dneighbo> if bin laden were smart he would come out and annouce he was able to do all this because windows isnt being used for all devices
<dneighbo> thus allowing him free reign when we 'correct' that problem
<dneighbo> slashdot quote of the day
<dneighbo> LNUX hit the $1 mark today. It'll be delisted before you know it. Taco had better start practicing saying "Would you like fries with that?"
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<reinhard> brb
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<jamest> to be total fair though.....
Action: jamest pictures the multi-hour delays at airports running GNU Anti Terrorist Environment (GATE) while techies help the gate crews....even though the system detects terrorist with a great degree of reliability it's emacs only interface requires years of practice to master
<reinhard> lol
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<dneighbo> Here's a problem that I've been having...
<dneighbo> I have a computer with a private IP address behind a firewall (doing NAT).
<dneighbo> Whenever I try to run an X app through ssh, I get: "Error: Can't open display:"
<dneighbo> Is it because NAT is getting in the way?  Any suggestions for getting this to
<dneighbo> work?
<dneighbo> Thanks,
<dneighbo> jamest is this that setting in ssh to allow remote x sessions?
<jcater> ssh -X
<jcater> or it's a setting
Action: jcater uses it w/nat all the time
<dneighbo> i know it works with nat as jamest was using my machine for a test
<dneighbo> but i recall having to fix a setting in ssh
<dneighbo> config file
<jcater> \  /etc/ssh/sshd_config
<jcater> X11Forwarding yes
<jcater> argh!
<jcater> brb
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<dneighbo> http://www.microsoft.com/business/downloads/licensing/Gpl_faq.doc
<dneighbo> i just ran accross this little gem
<dneighbo> doing some research for a local press release
<jamest> they can't even put in the html format?
<dneighbo> it gets worse
<dneighbo> if you try to edit/copy the link
<dneighbo> explorer has it grayed out
<dneighbo> trying to confirm if this is a .doc thing
<dneighbo> or fi they purposely did this
<ajmitch> morning all
<dneighbo> ok its a .doc thing
<reinhard> they did something weird with it
<reinhard> i can't download w/ mozilla
<jamest> i could put it up w/ konqueror
<jamest> and open it in openoffice
<dneighbo> what cracks me up
<dneighbo> is in a nutshell they say be very afraid have your lawyers over look this 
<dneighbo> but GPL is far LESS restrictive than the shit the put out
<ajmitch> you read eben moglen's article on it?
<dneighbo> i.e. the GPL doesnt take anyrights away it in fact EXTENDS you rights
<dneighbo> where as prop licenses TAKE AWAY rights
<dneighbo> yet you shouldnt need lawyers to confirm that you might be 'violating'
<dneighbo> this is almost funny to read
<jamest> Use M$, it's safer as there is no way in hell you'll never be able our code in your stuff!  We'd sue you for even looking at our code.
<dneighbo> if i knew poeple didnt take it as gospel
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<jamest> from the newest marketing campaign from redmond
<dneighbo> no kidding
<jcater> dneighbo: on a positive note, at least they are saying "if you are unsure, consult a lawyer"
<jcater> not to play devil's advocate or anything
<dneighbo> basically, " The GPL gives you enough rope to hang yourself.  Use software where you get no rope at all, you will be safer."
<dneighbo> jcater: im suprised they didnt give a 800 number to call for free 'consultation' from a lawyer to assess your software
<dneighbo> like they did in the BSA campaign
<jcater> :)
<reinhard> wow
<reinhard> they even have a link to the fsf homepage in there
<ajmitch> lemme guess, under the links to marxist societies on the net? ;)
<reinhard> "the GPL is a complicated agreement"
<reinhard> yep
<reinhard> "yo ain't allowed nothing" is much easier ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<dneighbo> this is too funny
<dneighbo> Assuming that two competitors are making similar use of GPL code, their obligations under the GPL should be the same.  There are, however, a number of scenarios to consider.  Some competitors may not understand their obligations under the GPL and, for that reason, might not share their improvements with competitors.   Other competitors' interpretation of the GPL might lead them to conclude that they have no obligation because they mig
<dneighbo> Some competitors may intentionally ignore their obligations under the GPL to obtain a competitive advantage, relying on a variety of factors to avoid compliance.  These factors might include obscuring object code to hide use of GPL code and the strength and enforcement of intellectual property laws in the country where they are doing business. 
<dneighbo> so what they are saying is do as your competitor might do?
<dneighbo> i mean my competitor buys one copy of his m$ office for all 500 of his employees
<dneighbo> i feel that it screws me as i pay for 500 copies
<dneighbo> next go around i should just buy one copy
<dneighbo> or maybe i just shouldnt use m$?
<dneighbo> as because my competitor breaks the law to get a competitive advantage against me, i should blame teh vendor?
<dneighbo> this is classic FUD
<dneighbo> i.e. they make valid statements with impelementation
<jamest> Use Emacs!
<dneighbo> or that are so vague in what they mean
<dneighbo> i.e. can your competitor get an advantage using GPL software by breaking the law
<dneighbo> ABSOULETLY
<dneighbo> but how does that make the GPL bad?
<ajmitch> you'd buy MS office? ;)
<dneighbo> he could rob banks to get a competitive advantage so maybe dont use a bank?
<dneighbo> 12. What happens if an intellectual property owner, who claims that your use of GPL code infringes its intellectual property rights, sues you?  As noted above, Section 11 suggests that you are "on your own" with respect to defense of the suit and payment for damages.  
<dneighbo> is equally as funny
<dneighbo> so if m$ comes after me for license violation, they will pay my fees?
<jamest> Q: So what is wrong with GPL code? A: The GPL restricts our ability to steal other peoples code, make incompatible changes to it, repackage it in a binary format as the foundation for something we charge big bucks for, then badmouth the original product as shoddy software made by hobiests
<jamest> Licenses such as the BSD allow us to do this freely so are superiour in every way to the the GPL
<ajmitch> heh
<jamest> (Which, by the way, was written by shoddy hobiests.)
<reinhard> this is too much fun
<dneighbo> 1. Have your lawyers read the GPL (and the LGPL)?  Because the GPL is so frequently misunderstood and because it attempts, under certain circumstances, to impose significant obligations on licensees and their intellectual property rights, no responsible business should use GPL software without ensuring that its lawyers have read the license and explained the business' rights and obligations.  They should also review and explain the Le
<dneighbo> license that is sometimes used with open source libraries.        
<dneighbo> is the only paragraph that i can find
<dneighbo> that is both true, factual and relevantly placed
<reinhard> i am still waiting to find the terms and conditions
<dneighbo> i.e. it is good and wise for a company to have a lawyer understand and decipher any legal contract including software licenses :)
<ajmitch> how about the obligations that come from using proprietary stuff, like sacrificing your firstborn...
<reinhard> under which you can use the freely available source code of MS Windows or Word
<reinhard> in your own programs
<reinhard> just to compare those terms to the gpl
<dneighbo> jamest: i had to laugh on your comment
<reinhard> and see which is more restrictive
<dneighbo> as below their big gripe 
<reinhard> :)
<dneighbo> is that its not fair that its proportioinal punishment
<dneighbo> i.e. let me recap
<dneighbo> m$ has a 500,000 line piece of software, there is a program that is 1,000 lines that is GPL we want to embed into that program
<dneighbo> those bastards using GPL say that its not ok
<dneighbo> and our punishment is the same as if we had 1000 line program that we wanted to include 500000 lines of GPL code in
<dneighbo> thats not fair
<dneighbo> as the answer to either scenario is all code is GPL
<dneighbo> if they would just make it fine based on porportion of GPL code used we would be happy to pay the fines to abuse GPL code
<jamest> reinhard: :)
Action: ajmitch would love to see the number of 'goto' statements in MS code
<reinhard> ajmitch: lol
<reinhard> btw did you notice
<reinhard> they use "commercial" in a consequent way
<reinhard> instead of "proprietary"
<reinhard> and for some reason they talk about "open source"
<reinhard> instead of "free software"
<ajmitch> heh
<reinhard> think in the U.S. it's hard to say "I am against freedom" ;)
<ajmitch> yep
<dneighbo> reinhard they are truly marketing masters
Action: ajmitch attempts to run cvs update
Action: ajmitch hopes jamest has put in his fixes :)
<dneighbo> bwahhh
<dneighbo> cvs crushme
<dneighbo> should be the alias to cvs update :)
<ajmitch> if cvs is going to work....
<dneighbo> it works for me
Action: ajmitch thinks he is about to get disconnected, ISP problems
Action: ajmitch sighs
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> you see slashdot on RMS article
<ajmitch> doesn't look like there have been any gnue-common changes...
<dneighbo> they all say great article, BUT that un-elected president bit nullifies whole thing
<dneighbo> loses him all credibility and thus its drivel
<ajmitch> brb
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<ajmitch_> k
<ajmitch_> now i can list my complaints about gnue-common, right? ;)
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<dneighbo> sure
<dneighbo> list them
<dneighbo> btw: jason / jamest are you here?
<jcater> no
<dneighbo> i have gnue-common question
<ajmitch> src/dbdrivers/_static/DBdriver.py
<ajmitch> change 'Import' to 'import'
<ajmitch> src/FormatMasks/DateMask.py
<dneighbo> if you have the fixes probably easier to send patches
<ajmitch> line 181 has what looks to be a bug: 'self.lastInputPos = '
<jcater> um
<ajmitch> dneighbo: i dunno what to fix in that DateMask.py file, i just set it to zero
<jcater> these files are not yet being used and are in initial stages of being written
<reinhard> From: reinhard.mueller@bytewise.at
<reinhard> To: info@microsoft.com
<reinhard> Dear Sirs,
<reinhard> I have read your very interesting GPL FAQ.
<reinhard> I have answered all 24 questions and still believe that the GPL is OK.
<reinhard> May I use GPL code now?
<reinhard> Yours sincerly,
<jcater> did something call these files?
<jcater> I'm just curious
<dneighbo> reinhard : roflmao
<ajmitch> jcater: am trying to run 'setup.py install' for gnue-common
<jcater> ah
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> jcater: should i use something else there sir? ;)
<reinhard> dneighbo: "P.S. would you mind sending me the TeX source code of your excellent article?"
<dneighbo> jcater / jamest sometime when you have time i have questions / implications possibly on gnue.conf / geas.conf
<reinhard> rofl
<reinhard> from www.microsoft.com/business
<jcater> ajmitch: it's committed
<Mr_You> anyone tell me where I can look up python functions/modules?  I want to know if there is a renice function
<reinhard> "Simply put, Windows XP is the best operating system Microsoft has ever built", according to Bill Gates
<ajmitch> cool, means i don't have to send you a patch ;)
<Mr_You> I'd guess there isn't one
<jcater> http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/lib.html
<jcater> (but i'd guess you're right)
<jcater> what is renice?
<ajmitch> it'd be in the posix section
<ajmitch> jcater: change the nice value of the process
<jcater> ah
<ajmitch> affects scheduling priorityies
<ajmitch> bah
<jcater> gotcha
Action: ajmitch hits keyboard
<Mr_You> I'm workin on a daemon that watches processes (not in real time, but via ps-like info via variables)
<Mr_You> and if a process runs out of control it renices the process (lowers priority).. if it runs out of control eventually it will kill it off
<ajmitch> nice :)
<Mr_You> I was doing this manually, but a big PITA
<Mr_You> and sometimes too late hehe.. server ends up killing it off itself :-(
<ajmitch> jcater: oh, another problem i didn't know how to fix:
<ajmitch> byte-compiling /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py to DBdriver.pyc
<ajmitch> inconsistent dedent
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/geas/DBdriver.py", line 363
<ajmitch>     self.triggerExtensions = TriggerExtensions(self.database)
<ajmitch>                                                              ^
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> is this bombing the setup.py?
<jcater> I tested setup.py before committing
<ajmitch> nope
<ajmitch> didn't bomb it, it goes on with the rest of the files
<ajmitch> python 1.5.2 btw
<ajmitch> wow, htdig can really chew up space :)
<ajmitch> using about 1GB at the moment
<jamest> geas driver is not up to snuff
<jamest> I'm working on it now
<ajmitch> righto
<ajmitch> i'll ignore it for now :)
<jamest> _but_
<ajmitch> but...?
<jamest> i think there are a few issues in the base driver
<jamest> that need fixing
<ajmitch> ah, k
Action: ajmitch didn't do it!
<ajmitch> i dunno anything about the driver system yet sorry :)
<jamest> no problem
<jcater> ajmitch: I've tried claiming that w/gnuef and it doesn't work for me
<ajmitch> but i have learnt enough python now to understand a fair bit of the code
<ajmitch> (not much to learn, really :) )
<jamest>  /msg jcater did you see that?!?!? I think we found our next victim!
Action: ajmitch starts running
<ajmitch> you haven't been able to lure me in yet ;)
<ajmitch> btw, where is the base driver?
<jamest> depends
<jamest> for 2 tier stuff it'd start in _dbsig
Action: ajmitch tries to install gnuef
<ajmitch> changing mode of /usr/local/bin/gfclient to 100755
<ajmitch> running install_data
<ajmitch> error: can't copy 'doc/techref.txt': doesn't exist or not a regular file
Action: ajmitch will just keep feeding you errors :)
<ajmitch> i see a techref.lyx
<jamest> yip
<jamest> that's not really an error
<jamest> you're running cvs
<jamest> and that is included in the tarball :)
<jamest> i must run
<jamest> l8r
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<ajmitch> ok, what to do then? ;)
Action: ajmitch hacked around it
<Mr_You> I need a cute name for my processor/processes watch dog daemon
<jcater> LittleBoPeep?
<jcater> (tracking lost sheep :)
<jcater> j/k
<Mr_You> hehe
<jcater> oh, wait.. she didn't kill her sheep if they got lost, though
<Mr_You> pswatch, procwatch, 
<jcater> pswarden
<Mr_You> psdictator
<ajmitch> lol
<Mr_You> psczar
<Mr_You> oh this is bad
Action: Mr_You won't say it heh
<Mr_You> procmaster
<jcater> psadism
<Mr_You> uhh huh? 
<Mr_You> heh
<Mr_You> cpusaver
Action: ajmitch wonders if gfclient will run
<dneighbo> procmaster sounds like a 'toy' from the local sex shoppe
Action: jcater likes psadist or psadistic
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> nope, it dies
<ajmitch> where can i paste errors, o gnue wizards? ;)
<jcater> are you running Mr_You's new toy?
<ajmitch> gfcvs
<jcater> did you create a gnue.conf and connections.conf?
<Mr_You> dneighbo heh
<ajmitch> ah, i am meant to put that connection info in connections.conf?
<Mr_You> or maybe I just keep the original name: realnice
<jcater> playnice?
<Mr_You> thats nice
<ajmitch> wow, much bigger traceback this time :)
<jcater> you're punny
<jcater> what's it saying?
<ajmitch> i can't paste it all here
<jcater> (last few lines only :)
<jcater> you can msg me
<ajmitch> DB000:     return self._recordSetClass(self, masterRecordSet=masterRecordSet)
<ajmitch> DB000: TypeError: unexpected keyword argument: masterRecordSet
<ajmitch> [ajmitch @ ajmitch gnuef] 
<ajmitch> dammit
<jcater> huh?
<jcater> is it possible you have an old copy installed somewhere?
<Mr_You> bofhd
<jcater> like in your site_packages directory?
<dneighbo> Mr_You you cant call it bofhd UNLESS
<dneighbo> you give ability to set nice level by users as well as stray process
<dneighbo> for example if user xx uses more than x% of processor
<dneighbo> renice his processes
<dneighbo> so bofh comes in and mike says thats a stupid shirt
<dneighbo> bofh can go and give
<dneighbo> bofh -u mike -n 1% 
<ajmitch> renice to 19 or 20
<dneighbo> now if mike runs a processes that takes mroe than 1% of cpu
<dneighbo> it will renice his process
<dneighbo> w/in the hour bofh will get call from mike "is the server slow today"
<ajmitch> if he takes more than 2% of CPU, kill -9 all his processes
<dneighbo> bofh: no one else seems to be having problems
<dneighbo> a true bofh could make it so that certain users
<dneighbo> are treated extra nice
<dneighbo> sally, 'wow bofh you get your hair cut, it looks great'
<dneighbo> and sally is given all cpu but 1% :)
<jcater> ajmitch: fix is committed
<ajmitch> jcater: thx muchly :)
<jcater> ajmitch: no, thank you
<ajmitch> hey, i've gotta do something during my 'study
<ajmitch> 'study' time
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<ajmitch> jcater: form pops up now
<reinhard> dneighbo: good mail to the gnucash list :)
<reinhard> have to get me some sleep
<reinhard> nite all
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<ajmitch> i see gnue designer is aiming to be a highly polished & professional app
<ajmitch> 'Waddaya mean "Moo! M-Moo! Moo! Moo!"?...."Sheep ya dern fool!"'
<jcater> it gets better
<jcater> with your fresh install, can you see if wizards work?
<ajmitch> where?
<jcater> File | New Form from Wizard
<jcater> i wrote it over the weekend
<jcater> and it works for me
<jcater> but not for some others
<jcater> some others=derek
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> i'm not getting a wizard showing
<ajmitch> DB000: Traceback (innermost last):
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/opt/src/cvs/gnue/designer/../gnuef/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/GFDesigner.py", line 87, in OnWizard
<ajmitch> DB000:     wizard = TemplateChooser.TemplateChooser(self).run()
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/opt/src/cvs/gnue/designer/../gnuef/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/designer/../../../../designer/src/TemplateChooser.py", line 102, in run
<ajmitch> DB000:     style=wxLC_REPORT|wxLC_SINGLE_SEL|wxLC_HRULES|wxLC_VRULES|wxSTATIC_BORDER)
<ajmitch> DB000: NameError: wxLC_HRULES
<ajmitch> great thing about python is that the app doesn't crash unless necessary
<jcater> ick
<jcater> do you know what version of wxPython you have?
<ajmitch> [ajmitch @ ajmitch etc] dpkg -l |grep wx
<ajmitch> ii  libwxgtk2.2    2.2.6.1        wxWindows Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (GT
<ajmitch> ii  libwxgtk2.2-py 2.2.6.1        wxWindows Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (Py
<jcater> ok
<ajmitch> running sid (unstable) here
<jcater> wow
<jcater> someone needs to update their wx base
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> what's it up to now?
<jcater> I am using a newer version
<ajmitch> k
<jcater> and I guess used a feature older ones didn't support
<jcater> I will need to remove those features
<ajmitch> current is 2.3.1
Action: ajmitch looks at CHANGES.txt
<ajmitch> hmm, i don;t see where they added or changed it
<jcater> hmm
<ajmitch> i have a list of valid styles for 2.2.6
<ajmitch> (from wx.py :)
<jcater> ok
<ajmitch> probably easier for me to send you wx.py
<jcater> jcater@gnue.org
<jcater> thx
<ajmitch> oh, what about dcc? ;)
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<jcater> dcc?
<ajmitch> yes, via irc
<jcater> oh
<jcater> getting hi-tech on me, eh?
<ajmitch> bah
<dneighbo> dcc sucks
<dneighbo> it fouls up w/ NAT etc
<ajmitch> i know
<ajmitch> ok, sent by email
<dneighbo> we need a release sometime soon
<ajmitch> of what parts?
<dneighbo> which means we need to get stuff tested to a degree and unload :)
<dneighbo> forms/designer/common needs release
<ajmitch> heh, i've been testing this morning :)
<dneighbo> i have been testing too
<dneighbo> we need dcl up and working :)
<ajmitch> dcl?
<dneighbo> or bugzilla
<dneighbo> something
<ajmitch> k
<ajmitch> gnats?
<dneighbo> gnats is gnuts
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: dneighbo likes dcl, but is game to whatever
<ajmitch> dcl looks interesting
<ajmitch> where would you host it? ash?
<dneighbo> yeah
<ajmitch> who is overlord of ash?
<dneighbo> um jamest
<neilt> hello
<neilt> speaking of jamest, has anyone seen him?
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<ajmitch> heh
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<ajmitch> neilt: jamest was in earlier
<dneighbo> he just left
<ajmitch> [09:01:16] <jamest> i must run
<ajmitch> [09:01:17] <jamest> l8r
<ajmitch> [09:01:19] <-- jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) has left #gnuenterprise
<dneighbo> dont know if he will be back
<ajmitch> just over an hour ago
<neilt> 9 am
<neilt> he just left?
<ajmitch> 9am NZ time
<ajmitch> Tue Sep 18 10:11:40 NZST 2001
<neilt> :)
<ajmitch> us kiwis are far ahead of the rest of the world :)
<neilt> has anyone worked on the geas driver for forms?
<dneighbo> jamest has :)
<neilt> what are U.S. Kiwis?
<dneighbo> per what he said today it appeared that way
<neilt> cool
<dneighbo> united states new zealznders i suppose
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> i should try & study....
<ajmitch> bbl
<dneighbo> from earlier today
<dneighbo> <ajmitch> using about 1GB at the moment<jamest> geas driver is not up to snuff
<dneighbo> <jamest> I'm working on it now<ajmitch> righto
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> quotes taken nicely out of context :)
<ajmitch> bye
<jcater> l8r
<dneighbo> you coming back?
<dneighbo> nevermind i see ajmitch is one leaving
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> my main frame is running slow and its pissin me off
<jcater> upgrade to linux
<jcater> j/k
<dneighbo> its on the todo list (seriously)
<neilt> dneighbo: ??, just add a dozen processors
<neilt> :)
<dneighbo> neilt i think we have max num processors
<dneighbo> you know the new ibm commercial
<dneighbo> where a whole basement of machines disappears
<dtm> i have that commercial mpeg.  it r0x0r
<dneighbo> we did that last year
<dtm> dneighbo: cool
<dtm> dneighbo: with what OS?
<dneighbo> our basment about 10,000 feet of main frame
<dtm> dneighbo: does it work out ok?
<dneighbo> got consolidated to new spiffy os390 about size of a cubicle
<dneighbo> it runs os390
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> they are sectioning off an LPAR for me to put linux right on the hardware
<dtm> i am completely oblivious as to actual usage and practical application of mainframe except for linux
<dneighbo> they just have to finish the upgrade to get the space available for me
<dtm> cool
<dtm> that's like magic, dood
<dtm> dneighbo: do you know if ibm mainframes scale downward to about 5000 users?
<dtm> i've only heard of them from 50,000 or so, on up
<dtm> my knowledge on the subject is low
<jcater> hehe... I'm sure they'll support a single user :) 
<jcater> j/k
<dtm> h0h0
<neilt> dtm: yep they support single user
<neilt> i even had to use DOS on one ontime
<dtm> Uhhh...
<neilt> of course its a real rich single user
<neilt> :)
<dtm> Yeah I think my limited knowledge is a bit less limited than that ;)
<neilt> and yes, IBM mainframes ran an operating system called DOS at one time
<neilt> but its not the DOS you would normally think of :)
<dneighbo> im i prefer to use ours in single use mode :)
<neilt> i have seen mainframes in organizations with less than 5000 users
<dneighbo> truthfully it depends on what you are doing
<neilt> but they did transactions processing 
<dtm> neilt: interesting.  i'd never heard of a mainframe OS called DOS.
<dneighbo> a million users coudl be done on our mainframe for server mail
<neilt> and ran very high volumes
<dneighbo> but at 1,000 years we are hurting running business applications
<neilt> dneighbo: DOS was before MVS
<dneighbo> and doing reporting queries for finance/hr while 2 or 3 programmers are doing complex reporting
<neilt> MVS was before os360
<dneighbo> its noticeably slow
<dneighbo> yes we still hvae MVS partitions
<dtm> dneighbo: wow
<neilt> os 360 was before os390
<neilt> i dont thing anyone really ran os360
<neilt> except on PC's
<neilt> but i could be wrong on that
<dtm> os360 ran on PC's?
<neilt> sure
<neilt> in the early 80's you had to spend about $20,000 for the PC but it emulated the mainframe
<neilt> and was used for development
<dtm> dneighbo: so what does your org intend to do about your hurting mainframe?
<neilt> mostly
<dtm> neilt: weird :)
<neilt> it had a special card in the PC that did hardware emulation
<neilt> so it was not all that slow eother
<neilt> either
<dtm> wicked :)
<dtm> and what sort of host machine was that?
<dtm> 8086?
<neilt> i think it was 386
<dtm> i assume you meant "dos compatible ia32" when you said PC
<dneighbo> um its not hurting too bad really
<neilt> may have been later 80's and 486
<dtm> i see
<neilt> cant remember
<dneighbo> i suppose if it gets painful then we will buy a second one
<dtm> dneighbo: well i would guess not, since you're still using it
<dneighbo> put HR on one
<dneighbo> and Finance on the other
<dtm> dneighbo: so it's cost effective though eh?
<dtm> dneighbo: and it's efficient and flexible for all purposes?
<dneighbo> compared to NT yeah
<dneighbo> compared to Unix/Linux probably not
<neilt> dtm: no i meant go buy and IBM PC and use it to run os360 and mainframe software
<dtm> i see!
<dtm> neilt: yeah that's what i thought
<dneighbo> its about vendor lockin
<dtm> dneighbo: gotcha
<dneighbo> we have 2 major apps on mainframe
<dneighbo> so we would have to replace those
<dneighbo> if we did that they would go with an ERP
<dneighbo> probably SAP
<dneighbo> which is anything but 'painless'
<dneighbo> so no one wants to 'go there'
<dneighbo> its been talked about, but people dont like to think about it
<neilt> just make them linux servers
<neilt> I think you can even cluster them
<neilt> then you can put SAP on them without having to dump the hardware
<neilt> probably even run Oracle
<neilt> then you can get trained, double your salary
<neilt> and get a new job
<neilt> thats what everyone else does that selects SAP
<dneighbo> well in perfect world yes
<dneighbo> HOWEVER they would want to run SAP on NT w/ MSSQL
Action: dneighbo is barfing allover
<dneighbo> thats why no one wants to go there
<neilt> i dont think you get it
<neilt> just push SAP and you will be ablet o double your salary
<neilt> of course you will have to leave
<jcater> makes sense to me
<neilt> and to replace you the gov will have to offer a lot more money
<neilt> dneighbo: you wont be present for the problems
<neilt> so dont resist
<dneighbo> but what would i tell my children :)
<neilt> be asimulated
<dtm> dneighbo: when you said "compared to NT yeah" i thought "walking is probably more effective than riding in a nailgun-propelled wheelbarrow with a flat tire, so how about another comparison?"  ;)
<neilt> dneighbo: guess where that new toy came from?
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> to both
<neilt> first baseball game is on CNN
<neilt> military honors
<neilt> singing the star spangled banner
<dtm> neat
<dtm> baseball is definately all-American
<dtm> ;)
Action: dneighbo loves ballgames
<dneighbo> neilt how about those royals?
<dneighbo> ;)
<dtm> hahah!
Action: dneighbo assumes neilt still has loyalty ties to KC teams?
<dtm> i used to attend Royals and Chiefs games once in a while
<neilt> given a choice i still support royals
<neilt> but i'm not really a baseball fan
<neilt> i am still a Chiefs fan
<neilt> now singing god bless america
<neilt> it seems wierd to see miilitary leading the singing at a baseball game
<neilt> dtm: you from KC
<dneighbo> im from KC
<dneighbo> will be back in hour
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<dtm> neilt: i'm from Salina, but with frequent relations with KC :)
<neilt> i am from KC originally
<neilt> also
<dtm> GNUe has an unusual Kansan quotient
<dtm> :)
<dtm> mdean is in KC
<neilt> :)
<dtm> there's a guy who's sometimes in #dcl who's from KC
<dtm> mdean's former coworker
<dtm> jbiggers is his name
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<jamest> man
<jamest> my xmms playlist has decided to replace all letter shaped things it used to display song titles in my playlist with little squares
<jamest> very helpfull in ensuring that I never know what's playing or even available to play
<jcater> it's part of the new Intellectual Property features required in new software
<jamest> :)
<jcater> we need to decide what the minimum versions of our dependencies will be
<jcater> I've already hit this w/someone today
<jcater> w/wxPython
<jamest> ok
<jamest> what they using?
<jcater> 2.2.6?
<jcater> (sid's version)
<jcater> I hate to require more than sid currently has, though
<jamest> ???
<jcater> but then again, that's an old version
<jcater> debian unstable
<jamest> bash-2.05$ dpkg --list | grep wx
<jamest> ii  libwxgtk2.2    2.2.6.1        wxWindows Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (GT
<jamest> ii  libwxgtk2.2-py 2.2.6.1        wxWindows Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (Py
<jcater> ok, 2.2.6.1 then
<jamest> that is the version I run now
<jamest> and I haven't had issues with it
<jcater> I've had issues w/designer
<jcater> but for the most part, it's ok
<jcater> (i've worked around them)
<jamest> wow
<jamest> popy requires openssl
<jamest> to build
<jcater> um
<jcater> wow
<jamest> er, scratch that
<jamest> looks like libpq wants it
Action: jamest is eagerly trying to get his home box to run the new popy driver
<jamest> so he can dive into caching
Action: jcater thinks jamest is a masochinist... hmmm... christmas? leather whip for lindsay? yeah, that'll work
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<jamest> jcater: did you happen to look at the connections.conf dependency?
<jcater> ??
<jcater> you mean the database tag?
<jamest> that <database> doesn't work 
<jcater> no, ppl here expect me to work on their stuff
<jcater> at least a few days out of the week
<jamest> the nerve
<jamest> where you pulling that now?
<jamest> GConnections?
Action: jamest will look while waiting for deps to download
<jcater> yes
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<Mr_You> damn the guy that won Murder in Town X was one of the fire fighters killed
<jamest> son of a bitch
<jamest> why is it every time I have time to work on gnuef something has to break
<jcater> ??
<jamest> my xmms font problem also effects forms
<jcater> whew
<jamest> so I now have a psycopg and popy driver that seem to connect
Action: jcater thought you meant I broke something right before you wanted to work on gnuef :)
<jamest> but all I get in the form is littel sqaures where fonts are supposed to be
<jamest> kinda hard to see if the output is right
<jamest> for those wonding why the !@#!@ am I doing popy , psycopg drivers
<jamest> instead of geas
<jamest> I'm doing it to get up to speed on new driver system
<jcater> oh
<jcater> I thought it was because 2-tier if superior to n-tier
<jcater> :)
<jamest> and find bugs
<jamest> which has been very successful :)
<jamest> bbs killing X
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<jamest> wow!
<jcater> all better?
Action: jamest feels like he's running win95
<jcater> oh
<jamest> a reboot is all it needed
<jcater> lol
[19:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> <box> in a <block> respects the rows= on the block
<jamest> but it cannot have it's own rows=
<jcater> roflmao
<jcater> oops
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well
<jcater> why not?
<jcater> if it is in a multirow block
<jcater> ?
<jcater> Maybe someone would want a box around each record
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<jcater> :)
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<jamest> that's fine
<jcater> btw, I was kidding
<jamest> however i think it may be nice to override with its own rows
<jamest> :)
<jcater> well, now that I think about it, maybe I'm not kidding
<jcater> *I* wouldn't do something like that
<jcater> but it is a logical extension of our block
<jamest> but but derek would
<jamest> oh wait, he's here now isn't he
<jamest> this is nuts
<jamest> both those drivers worked 
<jamest> with almost no edits
<jcater> ???
<jcater> gotta run
<jcater> did you expect any less?
<jamest> on l8r?
<jcater> yes
<jamest> l8r
<jamest> and yes I did
<jamest> they were not working on solaris
<jcater> ah
<jamest> on linux i get 0 errors
<jamest> so far.... :)
<jcater> cool
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<neilt> later all
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<jcater> wazzup, my krew?
<jamest> bug counts
<jcater> um, are you being sarcastic? or did I come at a bad time? :)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> both!
<jamest> j/k
<jcater> how goes the popy experience?
<jamest> ok, some forms don't work at all anymore 
<jcater> with popy, or in general?
<jamest> with popy
<jcater> how bizarre
<jamest> ah
<jamest> god it
<jamest> missed a workarround for pygresql bug
Action: ajmitch is back!
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<ajmitch> heh
<derek> im proud to be an american, where at least i know im free.... (good ole lee greenwood song)
<derek> thought how ironic....
<derek> as i might be proud to be an american, but i some times wonder if im free :)
<jcater> you are free as in beer, not as in libre
<derek> rofl
<derek> well i know thats not true
<derek> everything in this country costs 'something'
<derek> maybe thats why some people dont have a clue?
<derek> cause clue's cost to much?
<jcater> rofl
<derek> jamest you out there swearing somewhere?
<jamest> !#!@#
<derek> right on schedule
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Action: ajmitch wonders about sanity
<ajmitch> is it all it's meant to be?
<jcater> ajmitch: it's highly overrated
<ajmitch> thought so
<derek> sanity, that project bbecame gnue
<derek> jcater: you got time to help me get wizards working?
<jcater> jamest and I are working on that now
<jcater> it may be working in head now
<jamest> you can try it
<jcater> although we are having an int conversion problem
<jamest> but it's bombing for me with an int conv problem
<derek> hmmm
<derek> i couldnt even get the NEW wizards to show up
<derek> it was still looking at old ones
<jcater> actually, derek had the freakiests error
<jcater> yip
<derek> doing update on designer / gnue-common / gnuef
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> should i update too?
<derek> imagine me with freaky errors, who would have thunk it?
<jcater> ajmitch: sure
<ajmitch> gee, i dunno
<ajmitch> i'm playing with python right now
<derek> hey we dont need to know when you are playing with your snake ok
<ajmitch> :P
<jamest> if you update cvs as of right now
<jamest> you'll have popy and psycopg drivers  for gnuef
<derek> byte-compiling /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/installer/GConfigWriter.py to GConfigWriter.pyc
<derek> running install_data
<derek> error: src/.#GLoginHandler.py: No such file or directory
<derek> [root@latitude gnue-common]# 
<derek> when trying to install gnue-common
<jamest> looks like a user problem
<jamest> :P
<derek> user claims no responsibilty
<jcater> um
<jcater> that looks like a cvs conflict file to me
<jcater> you been playing around in our code again?
<jcater> bad derek, bad
<jamest> lol
<derek> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/designer/../gnuef/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/dbdrivers/postgresql/DBdriver.py", line 162, in getSchemaByName
<derek> DB000:     rs = cursor.fetchone()
<derek> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/site-packages/pgdb.py", line 229, in fetchone
<derek> DB000:     res = self.fetchmany(1, 0)
<derek> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python1.5/site-packages/pgdb.py", line 243, in fetchmanyDB000:     res = self.__source.fetch(size)
<derek> DB000: _pg.error: last query did not return tuples.
<derek> i get new wizard (yippee)
<jcater> wtf is that?
<jcater> btw, I just posted another fix :)
<jamest> derek at work
<jcater> lol
<derek> i get to the select base/source table portion
<derek> and it has valid tables in it
<derek> i select on and click continue>
<derek> and it gives me that lovely feedback :)
<jcater> my commit might have fixed that
<derek> which product
<derek> designer
<jamest> jcater: it works now
<jcater> you might have had same issues as jamest
<derek> forms
<derek> common
<jcater> common
<jamest> jcater: you do the %d thing?
<derek> i.e. which do i need to update
<jamest> derek: all of it
<jcater> jamest: yes
<jamest> i really don't like that solution
<jcater> nare do I
<jamest> I wish we knew wtf was going on
<jamest> derek: get thsi
<jamest> this
<derek> thats reassuring
<jamest> postgresql field types of INT are returned as long int in python
<jamest> when you str(field) where field is cast to long int 
<jamest> instead of say "10" you get "10L"
<jamest> L for long int
<jamest> isn't that purdy
<jcater> what versions of python are you two running?
<jamest> derek which python you using
<jamest> lol
<derek> im  seen this before
<jamest> that's almost scary
<derek> im using 1.5.2
<jcater> I think this has been resolved in 2.0 as that's what I'm using and I don't get the error
<jcater> resolved = changed
<jamest> derek: yes the old db drivers had workarround
<jamest> jcater: i say that alone is worth the requirement of 2.0
<jcater> that's a damn fine reason to up the requirement
<jcater> yeah, what you said
<derek> rofl
<jamest> objections?
<derek> i think its worth moving to 2.x
<derek> BUT
<jamest> no BUTS
<derek> after picking on gnucash maybe i should keep my mouth shut :)
Action: jamest plugs ears
<jamest> just a sec though
<jamest> I think I was seeing this at work w/ 2.0
<jamest> older 2.0 though
<jamest> jcater: how'd you update the laptop?
<jamest> to the python2 packages or by hand
<jcater> laptop?
<jamest> you're debian box
<jcater> I'm not sure if it's updates or not
<jcater> I can check
<jamest> sigh
<jcater> sigh?
<jamest> i have both 2.0 and 1.5.2 on my system
<jamest> but 1.5.2 is the defualt
<jamest> and removal would strip a butt-load of pacakges from my system
<jcater> then you can start all over w/your dependencies and document the whole process :)
<jamest> I mean it take a good chuck of my system w/ it
<jcater> oh
<jamest> looks like woody is still wanting 1.5.2
<jcater> well
<jamest> got idea'r
<jcater> can't you just rerun setup.py with the full name of the interpreter?
<jcater> and have gnue run against that version
<jcater> w/o changing the default
<jamest> hmmm
Action: jcater thinks that works correctly
<jamest> lets see
<jcater> but me thinking usually is a bad idea
<jcater> I have both installed on laptop
<jamest> nope
<jamest> not for devel anyway
<jamest> the python is hardcoded
Action: jamest will look at it
<jcater> anywho, are wizards working for you?
<jamest> yes
<jcater> and?
[21:59] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
Action: jamest is happy
<jcater> do they fit your needs for now?
<jamest> i think they are easier than GFDesigner.py.old
<jamest> by far
<jcater> if you want to get really happy, look at the Simple.py
<jamest> sorry derek :)
<jcater> we have a wizard language
<jamest> lol
<jamest> looks like wx's wizzards did't work out eh?
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<derek> btw: jamest im not offended
<jcater> jamest: that's an understatement
<derek> that little script saved me a butt load of time
<jamest> me too
<jcater> they are not even implemented in latest wxPython
<derek> jcater: it works for me and it rocks
<jcater> the interface is still kludgy
<derek> i dont like the full pixel space between items, but i can cope
<jcater> but it's a start
<derek> it does most of the work
<jcater> ?
<derek> it goes
<derek> somefield
<derek> entry
<derek> <space>
<derek> somefiled
<derek> entry
<jcater> I was debating about that
<derek> which takes up too much realestate
<jcater> it doesn't do that w/labels to the left
<jamest> labels to the left is fine
Action: derek for some reason doesnt like lables on the left
<jcater> we can change it for labels above
<derek> eventhought that is the UI standard
<jcater> it's a simple change
Action: derek probably doesnt like it cause m$ uses it :)
<jcater> well, hell
<jcater> let's put them to the right
<jcater> :)
<derek> also for labels on top : probably is not necessary as it is for left
<jcater> did you try grid style
<jcater> that's my favorite :)
<derek> the ui is still rough, but that should be easy to clean up
<jamest> Whoop!
<derek> i see a tee shirt
<jamest> python2 breaks everything!
<jcater> ack
<derek> a picture of the goat and
Action: jamest feels like he's home at last
<derek> GNUe Hackers above
<derek> Do It Grid Style below
<derek> re:
<jcater> ...but Masta does it above
<derek> <jcater> did you try grid style
<derek> <jcater> that's my favorite :)
<derek> next big item i think it to make designer mdi
<derek> so that the object tree and trigger editor
<jamest> nope
<derek> are in the main panel
<jamest> next big item is triggers
<derek> and properties and form
<jamest> :)
<derek> are floating
<jcater> derek: I'm probably going to leave designer alone for a little while 
<jamest> as the new datasources make triggers even more fun that before
<jcater> to help w/forms and to
<derek> jamest: i mean next designer item
<jcater> get reports going faster
<derek> jcater: thats fine
<jamest> ah
<jcater> besides, jamest has found most of my hidden bugs
<derek> just reopening new property editor, trigger editor and forms piece for each form is painful
<jamest> i think designer is readdy for 0.1.0 as she sits :)
<jcater> I need to introduce more
<derek> dont get me wrong designer rocks
<jcater> derek: I don't expect to do much at all w/designer UI until new forms UI is in place
<jcater> as I think it will be wasted effort
Action: jamest agrees
<derek> you are both fired from the marketing team
<jcater> darn
<jcater> I'm going to miss that extra income
<jamest> lol
<jamest> pwd
<jcater>  c:\recycled\
<jcater> oops, wrong os
<derek>  /data/p0rn/archive/goats/gridstyle/
<jamest> gee...thanks
<jcater>  Your current working directory is no longer valid
<jcater> well, my work here is done
<jcater> I'm going to retire for the night
<jamest> nite
jcater (jason@1Cust1.tnt8.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) left irc: nite
<derek> nite
mdean (mdean@arc11x86.kcnet.com) left irc: Ping timeout for mdean[arc11x86.kcnet.com]
--- Tue Sep 18 2001