Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: bbl
Action: derek sends jamest some geas luvin'
<jamest> gee thanks
<derek> dont worry no charge
<derek> first ones free
<jamest> at least it's connecting now
<derek> roflmao
<derek> upgrading debian
<derek> i look over
<derek> it says 'unpacking replacement bitchx'
<derek> which at first glance i saw
<derek> it says 'unpacking replacement bitch'
<derek> and was like wtf?
Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> derek: lol
<derek> chillywilly: nuttin like having some replacement bitches around eh?
<derek> how do i configure X in debian again?
<derek> jamest: gak
<derek> i have the squares for fonts
<derek> what did you do to get rid of that?
<jamest> shutdown X completely and reset the font servers
<derek> how do i do both of those?
<derek> i shutdown X (i.e. logged out) do i need to do more?
<derek> and how do i restart font servers?
<jamest> /etc/init.d/xfs stop
<jamest> /etc/init.d/xfs start
<jamest> /etc/init.d/xfstt stop
<jamest> /etc/init.d/xfst start
<jamest> er that xfstt
<jamest> and that should do it
<derek> i dont have xfstt (true type) it appears
<derek> yeah i think i have working X on debian FINALLY
Action: derek is officially switching wife over 
<derek> how do i get ximian packages for debian (sigh i need evolution for her)
<derek> i am NOT running ximian gnome
<derek> i just want evolution
Action: jamest waits to see if kmail and kalendar soon replace that too :)
<derek> :)
<derek> i should install kde on here for the wifey
Action: derek will do so after new hard drive comes in this box
Sacha_ (schlegel@ken.cs.curtin.edu.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
<derek> or once i delete win partition
<derek> chillywilly: what is X config tool for debian
<chillywilly> ummm
<jamest> which X version?
<jamest> xfree4.0 is dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86
<chillywilly> yop
<jamest> xfree3.x is IIRC XF86Setup
<jamest> or somehting
<chillywilly> jamest: you are just a kde whore and not worthy anymore, I am crossing you off of my list
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> they got evilution 0.13 in sid
ajmitch (ajmitch@p23-max4.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p23-max4.dun.ihug.co.nz]
Action: chillywilly waits for jamest to start kenterprise
<jamest> good idea
<jamest> :)
<derek> chillywilly: no galeon in woody?
<jamest> chillywilly: you in GEAS database system much?
<chillywilly> nope
<jamest> something really nuts going on here
<chillywilly> someone reworked the code though
<chillywilly> I think it was neilt
<jamest> i have a test case against geas
<jamest> near as I can tell 
<chillywilly> derek: heh, no galeon in sid either, I compiled it from cvs
<chillywilly> I could make a deb though
<derek> chillywilly: that sucks bean stalks
<jamest> a statement that has sql equiv to select * from table where field = '2';
<chillywilly> yea
<derek> i really like galeon
<jamest> generates 37 sql statements
<derek> too bad wife isnt getting it :)
<jamest> against the backend
<chillywilly> galeon is mmmmm, good
<derek> liar
<derek> it generates 38
<jamest> 5 of which are inserts
<derek> jamest: if you can hold out 20 more minutes
<derek> reinhard will be here
<jamest> 17 of which are updates
<chillywilly> ya, I suck
<jamest> is this normal or am I doing something wrong?
<chillywilly> GEAS does a bunch of monkey business though, it has internal structures and crap
<chillywilly> I think it is "normal" in a certain sense
<chillywilly> in that andrewm made it this mental
<chillywilly> and then wondered why it was so slow
<jamest> ok
<jamest> as long as it's normal
<chillywilly> it will just spit lots of stuff out even running the examples
<chillywilly> sql stuff
<derek> chillywilly: obvious answer is get bigger machine and faster db ;)
<chillywilly> hehe
<derek> wtf: woody has M18
<chillywilly> ick
Action: derek thinks debian is hopeless at times
<chillywilly> derek: add some sid lines
<chillywilly> install some sid packages
<chillywilly> you'll be ok
<chillywilly> then comment them out
<derek> if galeon was in sid
<chillywilly> true
<derek> i would go to sid to get it
<chillywilly> well
<chillywilly> they uploaded 0.9.4
<chillywilly> so it went bye bye
<chillywilly> until it is compiled against the new moz
<derek> for mozilla i will tough it out
<derek> btw: wonder if it has ssl support
<derek> otherwise im screwed
<derek> hmmm it doesnt install on the menus
<derek> or anything
<derek> that is REALLY weak
<chillywilly> get a sid moz, I can upload a deb of this galeon here
reinhard (rm@62.47.44.46) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> apt-get install mozilla-cvs
<chillywilly> hey reinhard
<jamest> just the man
<reinhard> morning
<jamest> reinhard: this this normal???
<derek> run reinhard run
<derek> if you value your sanity run
<chillywilly> I can't get galeon to compile against the friggin 0.9.4 one maybe I am missing a -dev [ackage for the regular I got both reg moz and cvs moz installed
Action: derek gave fair warning
<jamest> <jamest> i have a test case against geas
<jamest> <jamest> near as I can tell 
<jamest> <jamest> a statement that has sql equiv to select * from table where field = '2';
<jamest> <jamest> generates 37 sql statements
<jamest> <jamest> against the backend
<jamest> <jamest> 5 of which are inserts
<jamest> <jamest> 17 of which are updates
<reinhard> bwhahahahah
<reinhard> jamest: you are genius
<reinhard> how did you find out that?
<jamest> debug mode
<reinhard> really?
<chillywilly> -d 100000000000
<jamest> then opened a user.gfd
<chillywilly> :P
<jamest> which logs in 
<reinhard> it gives you the sql statements?
<chillywilly> it will show them
<jamest> yes
<jamest> and per a small hack
<derek> reinhard: acutally i think -d 1000000000000
<chillywilly> -d high
<chillywilly> works too
<chillywilly> I think
<derek> tries to dial your home phone and verbally get you the debug info 
<derek> we got a busy signal
<chillywilly> heheh
<reinhard> derek: rofl
<jamest> made the form query for a single attribute = to 2
<jamest> please tell me I'm doing something wrong
<derek> you are doing something wrong
<chillywilly> jamest: we expect that to be better as we slowly rewrite the code to be understandable by humans
<reinhard> jamest: you are doing something wrong
<jamest> derek: i don't value your opinion so that doesn't help
<reinhard> you are using a part of geas we haven't rewritten yet
<reinhard> ;)
<chillywilly> reinhard: rofl
<derek> if we are 'rewritting' geas
<reinhard> no kidding actually
<derek> why not python?
<derek> no kidding actually either
<chillywilly> reinhard: I know, that's the funny part
<reinhard> derek: we are not rewriting from scratch really
<reinhard> we are reusing a lot of existing code
<derek> seriously its much more readable and we would get all of the db drivers stuff done out of box as well as full config system
<derek> i assume currently most of geas slowness is bad design
<reinhard> yes 
<jamest> so I'm _not_ doing something wrong
<derek> and that python wouldnt be too slow
<jamest> ?
<reinhard> like 37 sql statements
<chillywilly> derek: how about we don't even know what the damn design is
<reinhard> jamest: it
<jamest> it?
<derek> i only say this because there are plenty of usable (in big enterprise) java app servers
<reinhard> s definitively not your fault
<jamest> ah , good
<jamest> i think
<derek> and personally i have been finding python to be nearly twice as fast as java for similar apps
<derek> but anyhow no need to go on that jihad now
<chillywilly> heheh
<jamest> I'm not jumping into this 
<reinhard> derek: re: readable
<reinhard> i don't think readability is a question of language per se
<jamest> but I still plan on doing a python/C interface to benchmark
<reinhard> please look at some code in geas/src/classdef
<jamest> and if things look good we can hopefully start sharing things
<reinhard> jamest: true
<jamest> i just have to get GEAS working with forms first
<jamest> :)
<derek> reinhard: biggest reason advocating python is
<derek> reusability 
<reinhard> jamest: please go on with the thing like you do now
<derek> thats not to say we cant get it with geas being in C its just not as easy to do so
<chillywilly> derek: I'd rather use Dave's GNU Common C++
<reinhard> and ignore those issues for now
<chillywilly> :P
<derek> as for readability
<jamest> can do
<chillywilly> you know what Bayonne is written with
<derek> python forces it C doesnt
<reinhard> because they can be resolved on the geas side
<derek> now that you and neilt have been in there
<derek> its gotten MUCH MUCH better
<jamest> reinhard: feature request
<jamest> time
<jamest> :)
<derek> python is just nice cause it doesnt let people do things like what was there before :)
<reinhard> jamest: ugh
<derek> in sense of no readability
<reinhard> jamest: ;)
<derek> btw: im not opposed to C, i just often wonder if it woudl move quicker if in python
<jamest> gnuef has a caching system 
<jamest> so when I pull 200000 records from the backend it can (if the backend supports it) pull X numbers of records at a time from the results
<jamest> it's a little quirky but we couldn't test it until this week (and it's not losing any data only mismanages the cache size)
<chillywilly> geas has the objectcache module too
<jamest> but I can't seem to get only a few records at a time
<jamest> unless I misunderstand
<chillywilly> I dun think it is that great though
ajmitch (ajmitch@p49-max11.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> ack
<chillywilly> it's an ajmitch
<ajmitch> bah
Action: ajmitch is eating
Action: chillywilly is kinda hungry
<reinhard> jamest: on the phone
<jamest> executeQuery returns all objectHandles
<chillywilly> whatcha eatin ajmitch?
<jamest> not a subset
<jamest> it'd sure be nice to see a subset :)
<chillywilly> jamest: er?
<reinhard> back
<reinhard> let me read log
Action: chillywilly pokes ajmitch
<chillywilly> gimme some
<jamest> objectHandles = handles to objects
<jamest> not a GEAS thing just a tired IRCr
<chillywilly> what is executeQuery?
<chillywilly> where is that?
<jamest> it's part of GEAS idl
<jamest> for conditional queries
<reinhard> jamest: this is probably true
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<jamest> which is far better than loadAll
<jamest> as it lets me segfault geas at will
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> ok
<jamest> j/k, it does seem nicer
<reinhard> i agree very much that the idl needs to be extended
<reinhard> phone again :(
<derek> so you saying you like the geas.SegfaultAtWill(true) method?
<jamest> but IIRC you can pass the field value as an int instead of a string and she'll segfault
<chillywilly> ObjectList executeQuery( in Query::Query querytoperform )
<chillywilly>         raises( ServerError );
<chillywilly> that one?
<derek> segfaulting is how real programmers throw errors
<jamest> chillywilly: yes
<derek> question
<derek> why is it
<jamest> if I pass it a string she'll build the sql real purdy
<derek> ObjectList
<derek> executeQuery
<derek> Query
<derek> and then
<derek> querytoperform
<derek> ?
<jamest> lol
<chillywilly> we didn't do it
<chillywilly> idls have not been touched
<chillywilly> blame andrewm
<derek> ObjectList ExecuteQuery Query QueryToPerform or
<jamest> i never noticed that
<jamest> anyway I need sleep
<jamest> I'm probably in trouble anyway 
<derek> objectList executeQuery query queryToPerform or
<jamest> as I don't take care of myself right
<derek> objectlist executequery query querytoperform
<jamest> or so I'm told :)
<derek> :)
<jamest> so now that I've found what may be a flaw in the design, requested a new feature, and presented a new bug
<jamest> I think my work here is done :)
<derek> hey thast my job
<jamest> found = found (new) for me
<derek> Special Promotion
<derek> Viagra (6) 50mg. doses
<derek> FREE Consultation
<derek> $104.99 ORDER NOW!
<derek> thats cool mail i get
<chillywilly> heh
Action: derek wonders why a married fellow would ever buy viagra anyhow?
<jamest> nite
jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) left irc: [x]chat
<chillywilly> that query crap makes no damn sense
<derek> kinda like buying a big screen for a blind fellow
<chillywilly> poor masta
<chillywilly> he doesn't get any
<derek> better than being single where you have to worry about what you 'get'
<chillywilly> I'm not worried, but then again I might as well be married
<chillywilly> GEAS could use better interfaces
<chillywilly> they really do lick nuts
<chillywilly> revision 1.2
<chillywilly> date: 2001/03/18 22:00:37;  author: treshna;  state: Exp;  lines: +3 -0
<chillywilly> improved speed of new query API - avoids a large number of database accesses
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> guess it didn't do much did it?
<chillywilly> what we should do is make a generic libodl that uses GComm for some generic remote object communication and internal object representation
<chillywilly> that has binsdings for C an python "internal" objects, we could use the Proxy pattern to abstract the fact  that it is a remote object
<chillywilly> so you don't even need to know it is a remote object
<chillywilly> you just use it like normal and then Gcomm does the dirty work
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> reinhard: you listening to this?
<chillywilly> this could be used in a lot of different things too if we make it generic enough
<chillywilly> we can use the virtual proxy pattern
<chillywilly> this is used in OO db systems too
<chillywilly> actaully
<chillywilly> we want remote proxy
<chillywilly> same difference anyway
<chillywilly> http://csg.uwaterloo.ca/dptool/patterns/structur/proxy.htm
Action: chillywilly awaits reinhard
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> would be cool to have GObject type objects and python objects as internal representation and then you just use proxies to those and then GCommmaps it to the remote object format and marsjalls the request, etc.
<chillywilly> classdefs would become libodl parser
<chillywilly> the new one that is
<chillywilly> oooh, I like where this is going
<chillywilly> actaully the python or GObject (or equivalent C representation) should be th eproxy and then that is mapped to a remote representation and marshalled if needed
<chillywilly> heck even bonobo could use libodl istaed and support more then CORBA ;)
<derek> chillywilly: i switched to sid
<derek> and got
<chillywilly> uh oh
<derek> mozilla w/ psm .9.4
<derek> AND
<chillywilly> oh goodie
<derek> galeon .12.1
<derek> both seem to work fine
<chillywilly> good
Action: derek hugs his aptitude
<derek> i might get brave and try to get gnucash
<derek> hahahaa
<chillywilly> kewl
<derek> some other night
<chillywilly> I have it installed
<reinhard> chillywilly and all: sorry i am swamped (it seems so at least
<reinhard> )
<reinhard> i am on the phone and while i spean
<reinhard> speak
<chillywilly> k
<reinhard> average 2 others call and tell the answering machine i should call back urgently
<chillywilly> well just think about all that stuff that came pouring out of my brain
<reinhard> while i call back 2 more call etc.
<reinhard> :((
<chillywilly> ugh
<chillywilly> well
<chillywilly> I must go to bed
<chillywilly> or be flogged
<chillywilly> night all
chillywilly (danielb@d174.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d174.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
dtm_ (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Mr_You_ (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: Ping timeout for Mr_You[mankind.boredom.org]
dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) left irc: Ping timeout for dtm[m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com]
<Sacha_> hi reinhard
<Sacha_> to install gnuenterprise is it the best to read the manuals first?
<reinhard> wel
<reinhard> l
<reinhard> it's best to get an overview what you want
<reinhard> gnue is a meta project (a group of projects) actually
<Sacha_> ok.
<reinhard> you have a gui form engine
<reinhard> a report generator
<reinhard> an application server
<Sacha_> ja
<Sacha_> as you know i am the guy who does some e-business and some intelligent agents.
<Sacha_> next year i will do a masters in computer science and i asked my current postgraduate supervisor if our school would accept a work in a os project and he said yes.
<reinhard> cool
<Sacha_> such a masters can take up to 18 months.
<reinhard> so pick the part you would be interested in most
<Sacha_> yeah. i think if someone wants to do something in e-business there should be an erp in the back somewhere.
<Sacha_> my interests in e-business are (as i mentinoed once) procurement, supply chain management, maybe some customer relationsship management and the ebxml (electronic business xml) in general
<Sacha_> i am not sure where software agents fit in this world but they might be useful somewhere.
<Sacha_> maybe i should explain an original idea more: 
<Sacha_> we have buying and selling companies. 
<Sacha_> in real world this could be just about anything from services, to goods to ...
<Sacha_> so there could be an electronic market where software agents (software programs (processes)) can execute.
<Sacha_> the selling company sends an agent there who knows about the products/goods/service and know how to deal.
<Sacha_> on the buying side there could be an erp system for inventory and this system triggers that it is low on a particular good.
<Sacha_> the system could then create an agent and tell it what exactly it shall look for (product/goods/service etc) and sends it to the market.
<Sacha_> on the market both agents meet each other.
<Sacha_> and they start then to negotiate about the product and a price.
<Sacha_> if there is a deal control could go back to the erp system which completes the deal. that would be like order, shipment, invoice, payment...
<Sacha_> this scenario was an idea some time ago.
<Sacha_> yep.
<Sacha_> at the moment i study/read about ebXML, xCBL etc. which are the technical business background.
<Sacha_> then i have an opensource agent platform called fipa-os. (http://fipa-os.sourceforge.com)
<Sacha_> for this postgraduate diploma i will hack some things including agents and parts of xCBL. but i am not happy because in this case i just hack something which is not really useful. :(
<Sacha_> so i start to make up my mind for next years masters.
<reinhard> Sacha_: this stuff sounds very interesting
<Sacha_> very cool would be the combination of: erp, ebXML and agents.
<reinhard> more like a vision than like a plan though :)
<reinhard> sure
<Sacha_> there are implementations of agent systems, not so many but there are some. and there are even some companies implementing agent markets for electronic markets.
<Sacha_> in my position it is more like a vision than anything else.
<Sacha_> so before i start i wanna think what i really want.
<Sacha_> i mean i can hack something here at school and in the end the code, ideas and impl. go into the rubbish bin somewhere.
<Sacha_> linux is maybe the first thing i came across open source and since 4 years i only work with os.
derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net]
<Sacha_> yep
<Sacha_> so i thought about installing gnu enterprise to get an idea how far it is.
derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: Connection reset by peer
dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> GNUe is currently a set of tools that don't (yet) work very well together
<reinhard> especially geas
<reinhard> but that will change very soon
<reinhard> plus we have some conceptual work on the end user applications like supply chain, accounting etc.
<reinhard> and Sacha_ just FYI some project members are very proud that we are _not an open source project
<reinhard> we are a free software project :)
<Sacha_> GNU enterprise
uday (uday@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
uday (uday@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) left irc: [x]chat
neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.66.57.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
<neilt> hemmo all
<neilt> hello all
Action: reinhard runs by and waves
<reinhard> hi neilt
<neilt> reinhard: hello
<neilt> I flew from washington dc to chicago yesterday
<neilt> this situation is really going to get bad
<neilt> i looks like about 80% less people in the airport
<neilt> s/i/it/
<neilt> my flight that was normally 100% full had 30 people on it instead of 130
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
jbailey (we-refuse-@fencepost.gnu.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.66.57.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: bbs
jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Read error to ToyMan[c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net]: EOF from client
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> howdy
neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.66.57.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
<jamest> hi
<neilt> hello all, depressed again
dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: neilt gets on the bandwagon
<neilt> ouch its painful
<dneighbo> bandwagon?
<jamest> depressed again?
Action: neilt goes to get the python book
Action: neilt starts re-writting geas
Action: neilt wants to be liked
<jamest> huh?
<jamest> did I miss something
Action: neilt finishes reading the log
<jamest> ah
<jamest> you mean this mornings logs
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> neilt use deodorant, we will like you then ;)
<jamest> i think we should benchmark things before we get too eager to redo anything
<jamest> my concern last night was that I was doing something wrong
<jamest> which it seems I wasn't
<dneighbo> fwiw: i wouldnt advocate out of box to rewrite geas in python
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> reinhard said it was undergoing a rewrite
<dneighbo> python seems to be more productive for a greater number of people
<dneighbo> if we can use 80% of whats there
<dneighbo> then i dont think we should rewrite in another language
<dneighbo> just fix the C
<dneighbo> that was the orginal idea
<dneighbo> but i think over 20% has been rewritten
<dneighbo> and methods need full rewrite, we need to abstract RPC, objectstore needs a rewrite
<dneighbo> i.e. looks like the guts short of the lexx/yacc stuff needs some pretty heavy work
<dneighbo> but its your guys call
<dneighbo> im just saying how it looks from my point of view
ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.38) joined #gnuenterprise.
<neilt> here the thing, if we do a rewrite it'll be another year before any applications can be developed with geas
<ra3vat> hi all
<neilt> we are real close to making geas work
<neilt> and improving in C can be transparent
<neilt> to application developement
<neilt> we need application development
<neilt> that is not possible with 2 tier
<neilt> because there is no way to abstract the application away from SQL statements
<jamest> i don't think starting over is good idea
<jamest> i still think we can benchmark a python/c 2-way interface
<jamest> and if it looks better than what we have 
<dneighbo> jamest so you thinking just use what we have in gnuecommon if its acceptable speed?
<jamest> we could plug in pieces from BOTH sides into gnue-common
<dneighbo> ah
<dneighbo> im all for writing applications
<dneighbo> so what ever makes that quick and easy
<jamest> then we can write apps today using pieces of each 
<ra3vat> jamest: what did happen with madlocke? is it him who ill?
<jamest> and spend the 1 year we'd lose to a rewrite polishing and replacing things
<jamest> ra3vat: yes, madlocke was/is very sick
<jamest> i have heard from him only once and at that time he'd been very ill for 3 weeks
<jamest> anyway it's just an idea
<jamest> I'd think (without looking) that if the benchmarks work out ok
<jamest> we could plug in the gnue-common querybuilder
<jamest> which would get the number of SQL statements down to 1 per call
<jamest> then recode in C for better performance
<neilt> since python is embedded in geas anyway
<neilt> executing functions from geas is a peice of cake
<jamest> I'm trying to get things fixed asap and the benchmark done
<neilt> not that i understand how it works
<jamest> but I have calc test next tuesday
<jamest> and have been avoiding homework/study to work on gnuef last few days
<neilt> but i'll bet there is no documentation on gnue-common?
<jamest> so I'm probably out of the loop till next week
<chillywilly> a calc test?
<chillywilly> you taking some courses?
<jamest> neilt: we do ok with regard to docs
<jamest> neilt: you'll find the basics in docs
<neilt> are they in lyx
<jamest> in text
<jamest> and like right now
<neilt> thats better
<jamest> as I learn the database system i'm making notes
<jamest> we're not overflowing with docs
<jamest> but the complex stuff does have them
<neilt> what about an overview of common
<jamest> that we lack :(
Action: reinhard suddenly appears on the scene and everyone goes "aaaahhh... it's bicycle repair man!"
<neilt> so i have to read every source to figure out common
<reinhard> neilt: you should not try to be liked, rms never tries that either ;)
<jamest> neilt: not really
Action: neilt never wants to even be thought of in the thought in the same mind as RMS
<neilt> sorry phone
<jamest> lol
<neilt> call
<neilt> reinhard: you been busy
<neilt> reinhard: did you get a chance to try methods
<neilt> reinhard: and if so, did they work for you
<reinhard> neilt: if i remember grammar correctly
<reinhard> the right form would be "i am being busy"
<neilt> :)
<reinhard> or maybe "i have been being busy for quite some time"
<neilt> so it has not let up yet
<reinhard> but i tested methods yesterday
<reinhard> non-module methods work for me for python and c
<reinhard> module-methods (like neil-test) works for me for python
<neilt> what are non-module methods
<neilt> ahh gotit
<reinhard> methods of classes that are in the root:: module
<neilt> thanks
<reinhard> like test_dosomething of the examples dir
<reinhard> so everything that should work seems to work for me
<neilt> that must be a mistake
<reinhard> lol
<neilt> in looking at the module code
<jamest> wow
<neilt> i have two options
<neilt> 1) make python accept non-string args
<neilt> 2) make c methods work
<neilt> i think (1) is more important right now
<neilt> what  do you think
<reinhard> it depends on how realistic a soon methods rewrite _really_ is
<reinhard> if we think we will still live with current methods incarnation for some time
<reinhard> i would say 1)
<reinhard> otherwise i would say
<ra3vat> i can't compile geas with python methods support as something like libpython2.0.so missing on my machine 
<neilt> i estimate it will take about 2 days in labor to make python args work
<reinhard> none of the above
<dneighbo> ra3vat you using red hat?
<dneighbo> redhat rpms dont contain that booger
<dneighbo> i have the 1.5.2 so's
<ra3vat> now i have python2.0
<neilt> and I also believe that making args work would help us interface to gnue-common
<dneighbo> all you do is have someone with your version of python that uses debian
<dneighbo> email you the so's
<dneighbo> and dump there where its saying its missing them
<neilt> because we can use the same interface that we use to call our methods
<dneighbo> and you are all set
<jamest> neilt: that would rock
<dneighbo> jamest might be able to get them to you
<reinhard> neilt: i think it would make sense
<reinhard> i agree (probably with you and all others) that c methods are priority Z at the moment
Action: dneighbo is happy we might get methods working and actually get some good code reuse
<reinhard> where A is highest :)
<dneighbo> reinhard thanks mr bicycle repairman
<jamest> i thought the python methods in geas were complete broken
<neilt> dneighbo: python methods work right now
<reinhard> jamest: yes
<dneighbo> jamest neilt has been a busy bee
<reinhard> jamest: and neilt completely fixed them
Action: jamest pats neilt on the back
<reinhard> :)
<jamest> cool
<ra3vat> dneighbo: what if i use mandrake?
<dneighbo> ra3vat probably same for mandrake
<neilt> the only problems is that all args and return values are python strings
<dneighbo> who ever makes python rpms doesnt compile them with .so support
<dneighbo> debian package maintainer does
<dneighbo> so your choice is get the .so from someone
<dneighbo> or compile python from scratch
<dneighbo> i chose to get hte .so
<reinhard> neilt: it's possibly a corba issue, too, not only python issue
<jamest> neilt: I'm fairly certain I have a book w/ examples of arg passing
<dneighbo> i have 1.5.2 available on teh web
<dneighbo> we need to make 2.0 available on teh web
<reinhard> ra3vat: you have libpython2.0.a? or none at all?
<neilt> jamest: its easy to do in python interface
<dneighbo> btw: we need to document this
<ra3vat> reinhard: yes, in python-devel
<dneighbo> so we can put the fix up to web
<neilt> reinhard: what i am going todo is write the code so we can call python with any args
<dneighbo> as red hurt folks probably will have this issue too
<neilt> i may not get the idl and corba stuff working
<neilt> that will be the second step
<ra3vat> reinhard: what should i do with libpython2.0.a then?
Nick change: neilt -> neil-lunch
<neil-lunch> bb in a couple of hours
<reinhard> ra3vat: in which directory is it? maybe ld can't find it
<reinhard> ra3vat: ld should accept libpython2.0.a if it can't find .so
<dneighbo> reinhard you sure?
<reinhard> 99%
<ra3vat> reinhard: ok, i'll try it later today, thanks
<reinhard> ra3vat: ok maybe i'll be here then
jbailey (we-refuse-@fencepost.gnu.org) left irc: leaving
<neil-lunch> chillywilly: thanks for the info on debug
<neil-lunch> in geas
<neil-lunch> in the log
<neil-lunch> i thought i had it set at the highest
<ra3vat> bbl
ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.38) left irc: Client Exiting
<chillywilly> no prob
<chillywilly> isn't it a little early for lunch?
<dneighbo> almost noon
<chillywilly> not here though
Action: chillywilly thwaps dneighbo with a trout
<reinhard> just got this in a mail
<reinhard> the first plane that flew into WTC had flight number Q33NY
<reinhard> enter that flight number in winword
<reinhard> and change the size to 48 points
<reinhard> and change the font to wingdings
<reinhard> ---
<chillywilly> I don't got win word
<chillywilly> reinhard: you got word?
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> chillywilly: you can use and windows app you like
<reinhard> just have to change the font to wingdings
<chillywilly> I don't have windows
<chillywilly> youg to windows?
<chillywilly> er, got
<chillywilly> windows baaaaad
<chillywilly> gnu/linux gooood
<chillywilly> bad windows
<reinhard> chillywilly: i am working on a windows pc now
<chillywilly> bad bad windows
<chillywilly> bad reinhard
<reinhard> i need 4 apps under windows
<chillywilly> and those are?
<reinhard> 1. communication with my bank - does only work with windows
<chillywilly>  switch banks
<chillywilly> :P
<reinhard> all banks only have windows programs
<chillywilly> bah
<reinhard> i will write a plugin for gnue someday :)
<chillywilly> stupid banks
<reinhard> 2. word/excel in case a customer sends me a file
<reinhard> 3. pc anywhere to remote access customer's windows pc's
<dneighbo> 2. star office fixes this
<dneighbo> 3. vnc fixes this
<reinhard> 4. winaxe
<chillywilly> abiwrod, star office, open office, koffice even
<dneighbo> winaxe?
<reinhard> a x windows server for windows :)
<reinhard> this is how i log into gnome :)
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> well i say 1 is the only one you 'really' need
<reinhard> plus
<dneighbo> the other 2 are convience only :)
<chillywilly> reinhard: you have no excuse other then the bank program, but I wouldn't trust a bank using winblows anyway, how secure is that?
<reinhard> i am still using ms money instead of gnucash
<dneighbo> i.e. there are linux equivs 
<reinhard> chillywilly: they do not use windows themselves
<chillywilly> reinhard: is it a web site or a program?
<reinhard> the programs they give away to their customers run under windows
<reinhard> a program
<chillywilly> why don't they just have web access
<reinhard> it uses direct modem communication
<reinhard> w/o internet
<chillywilly> gah
<reinhard> direct modem is much more secure
<chillywilly> nah
<chillywilly> phone network is NOT secure
<chillywilly> whatsoever
<reinhard> you have to dig out the telephone line to sniff packages :)
<chillywilly> you don't think someone can tap the line?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> they are under the ground here in austria :)
<chillywilly> it hooks up to your house right?
<reinhard> yep from the cellar
<reinhard> so unless somebody hides in my cellar
<reinhard> or in the bank's cellar
Action: chillywilly hides in reinhard's cellar
<reinhard> or in the post office's cellar maybe
<reinhard> they have no chance
<reinhard> and if somebody hides in the bank's cellar
<reinhard> they probably do something else than tapping telephone lines :)
<chillywilly> just admit it
<dneighbo> the winding was cute but inaccurate
<chillywilly> you're not as GNU pure as you claim to be
<dneighbo> flight 11 and 77 were flight numbers
<dneighbo> not 33
<dneighbo> HOWEVER
<dneighbo> the train that goes to the airport to queens is
<dneighbo> Q33 NY
<dneighbo> ;)
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> chillywilly: it is really actually mostly legacy stuff i need windows for
<reinhard> even my kids never play windows games
<reinhard> only gnu games :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> is there a gnome equivalent to kpaint?
<reinhard> guess
<reinhard> gpaint :)
<reinhard> dunno kpaint but gpaint was crap last i looked
<chillywilly> http://www.atcllc.com/jobs.jsp
<chillywilly> that is fscked up
<chillywilly> cannot apply there
Action: chillywilly will mail them about their fscked up jsp page
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> cool I got xchat to crash using this mutt mail python script
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> groovy it works noe
<chillywilly> now
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> brb
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: 
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: neil-lunch -> neilt
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
Mr_You_ (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet?
Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> oh python masters are you here?
<chillywilly> how can I make this remove some tem files
<chillywilly> if os.fork () == 0:
<chillywilly>         os.execve ("/usr/bin/gnome-terminal", ["linux", "--termname=xterm-color", "--command=mutt -H " + filename], os.environ)
<chillywilly>         os.execve ("rm .xchat-mutt*", [""], os.environ)
<chillywilly> is that last statement good?
<chillywilly> is there a different way I could make it do the rm of those temp files?
Action: chillywilly thwaps jamest, jcater, and masta
<dneighbo> what wsas the question again?
<jcater> os.remove
<jcater> http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/os-file-dir.html
<chillywilly> hmmm
<dneighbo> jcater why clean up temp files
<chillywilly> I dun want them there
<dneighbo> thats weenie programming
<chillywilly> they are pointless
<jcater> lol
<jcater> that's what autoexec.bat is for
<dneighbo> yeah
<chillywilly> bah
Action: chillywilly runs around beating ppl ove rth headwith a salmon
<jcater> btw: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw.py?req=show&file=faq03.030.htp
<jcater> in regards to earlier problems w/shared library
<jcater> salmon? we've moved up in the world... no more trout! yeah!
<Mr_You> haha.. did infoworld get /.ed?
<chillywilly>  try:
<chillywilly>         os.unlink (filename)
<chillywilly> isn't that supposed to remove the bugger
<chillywilly> that makes no damn sense though
<dneighbo> jcater hmmmm
<chillywilly> I need a generic python script where I can invoke mutt
<dneighbo> wonder if this will be a big issue for us moving forward
<chillywilly> so gno mailto urls wil work
<dneighbo> wrt: embedding python in geas
<chillywilly> er, gnome
Action: chillywilly should finish reading the tutorial and write up mailto.py and gnus-not-linux.py :P
<jcater> temp files?
<jcater> what do you need temp files for?
<chillywilly> it is just a script I stole
<jcater> ah
<chillywilly> I dunno wtf is th epoint of making a temp file
<jcater> that's the best kind of programming :) someone else's
<chillywilly> you can just invoke mutt with an arg
<chillywilly> mutt someone@somewhere.com
<chillywilly> shoudl work
<chillywilly> should
<Mr_You> damn slashdot.org took out inforworld.com can anyone pull it up (the latter)?
<chillywilly> jcater: http://mail.nl.linux.org/xchat-discuss/1999-12/msg00014.html
<chillywilly> makes mutt open a file with To: someone@somewhere.com, but I don't think you even need a temp file
<Mr_You> infoworld.com sorry
Action: chillywilly just tried it fomr the command line
<chillywilly> I am gonna hack this script up
<chillywilly> ummm, what do you do to process argv in python?
<jcater> sys.argv is a list
<jcater> argv[0] is the name of the program
<jcater> (command line name)
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> bah I just need to finish readin the tutorial
<jcater> for fancy stuff, you may want to look at getopt.getopt
<chillywilly> man I hate this chair
<dneighbo> Mr_You  infoworld works for me
<dneighbo> i cant find the license though
<jcater> not for me, though
<dneighbo> imganine this they dont post thier licenses before you buy :)
<chillywilly> what about infoworld?
<chillywilly> This domain name and site are available for SALE.
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> bah, should I learn visual basic?
Action: chillywilly screams
<chillywilly> anyone ever use BEA Weblogic application server?
<Mr_You> I doubt you would have *learn* VB ;-)
Action: chillywilly wonders if any of theses jobs will not mention Java or friggin VB
<Mr_You> have patience and you'll find what you would like to do..
<chillywilly> woohoo
<chillywilly> win200 MCSE entry level
<chillywilly> win2000
<chillywilly> lemme at it
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> car              ttyp4    66.57.96.60      Thu Sep 20 02:51 - 04:24  (01:33)
<Mr_You> thats too late heh
<chillywilly> wassat?
<Mr_You> me logged in at that time
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> I hate this friggin chair
Action: chillywilly goes off to find a comfy one
Action: jcater got a new chair last week :)
<Mr_You> assuming my landlord lets the 2nd roommate move in.. I'll have a bigger room for my stuff so I'll probably work in there instead of out here on the couch
<dneighbo> chillywilly BEA Web Logic (is part of tuxedo family) iirc
<dneighbo> i.e. BEA Tuxedo was a CICS replacement (transaction server)
<dneighbo> it evolved to do some work flow
<dneighbo> then amazon paid them a butt load to do thjier operations and I think WebLogic was born out of that
<jcater> any one familiar w/TrustCommerce payment processing?
<jcater> they have a GPL'ed tcp/ip client
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> no but give me linkage :)
<jcater> http://www.trustcommerce.com/tclink.html
<jcater> uses openssl for encryption
<jcater> and doesn't require leased line/modem
<jcater> sorry, it's LGPL
<dneighbo> no python module
<dneighbo> LGPL is fine for this
<jcater> well, : "I'd also like to LGPL the Java and Python clients for inclusion in this distro"
<Mr_You> jcater dunno if you're considering, but I use Verisign/Signio
<dneighbo> I'd also like to LGPL the Java and Python clients for inclusion in this distro, and perhaps the Linux ColdFusion CFX tag as well. I will port these, and possibly some of the others, as time permits. 
<dneighbo> yeah i see that too :)
<dneighbo> wonder why they arent currently
<jcater> maybe he didn't write them
<Mr_You> what is the discussion?  e-commerce connectivity for GNUe?
<Mr_You> or jcater just curious
<jcater> the latter :)
<jcater> although the former is something to keep in mind :)
<dneighbo> if there is a php client i assume writing a python mirror of that would be trivial :)
<Mr_You> redhat interchange supports many payment services
<dneighbo> btw there is a gpl ccvs (or there was one) wonder if its still around
<jcater> not sure... I haven't found anything like that
<dneighbo> WOW
<dneighbo> holy crap
<dneighbo> there was openCCVS
<dneighbo> they got sued and are shut down
<dneighbo> http://www.blackholesun.com/occvs/
<chillywilly> what is ccvs?
<jamest> credit card verificiation service i think
<chillywilly> aaaah
<chillywilly> why are there legal issues?
<jamest> if it is for credit cards
<jcater> IIRC, the protocols are proprietary
<jamest> then clearing houses get a cut of each transaction
<jcater> and you have to license something or another
<chillywilly> bah
<jamest> they would not want something freely available
<chillywilly> how fucking gay
<chillywilly> what jag offs
<chillywilly> dudes
<chillywilly>            USE GNU                                                
<chillywilly>         ,           ,                   
<chillywilly>        /             \                                            
<chillywilly>       ((__-^^-,-^^-__))
<chillywilly>        `-_---' `---_-'                               
<chillywilly>         `--|o` 'o|--' 
<chillywilly>            \  `  /   
<chillywilly>             ): :(   
<chillywilly>             :o_o:  
<chillywilly>              "-"                                   
<chillywilly> l8r
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: EOF from client
<Mr_You> makes each PID a monster, they proceed to go around killing themselves
<Mr_You> oops
<Mr_You> BTW, there is a PSDoom that looks really cool, but don't run it unless you want your machine to kill itself ;-)
<Mr_You> to lower a processes priority you shoot it with a small gun, to kill it big gun
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<neilt> jamest:
<neilt> The Python interpreter is not fully thread safe. In order to support multi-threaded Python programs, there's a global lock that must be held by the current thread before it can safely access Python objects.
<neilt> this kinda sucks for a server, if i understand it right?
<chillywilly> just gives you a very coarsely grain threading
<chillywilly> but python can be used to write mt apps
<neilt> if we run embedded python why do we have to use threads
<neilt> for the python intrepreter
<chillywilly> each method can run in a thread
<chillywilly> you don't have to do anything
<chillywilly> just saying even though that interpreter is not thread safe it will do threads internally
<jamest> neilt: is that from within C programs 
<neilt> yes
<jamest> ah, as I'm pretty sure python itself does threads 
<jamest> hmmmm
<jamest> i didn't think geas was threaded either
<chillywilly> yes, it has a Thread object
<jamest> as orbit was blocking that
<chillywilly> orbit is not thread safe
<chillywilly> only that one branch
<jamest> so what we end up with 
<jamest> is that we can't thread the interpreter correct?
<neilt> i dont know
<jamest> but internal to methods we can thread
<neilt> i am looking at the code
<jamest> hmmm
<neilt> and see PyEval_AcquireLock() calls
<neilt> this wraps any use of python objects
<neilt> an i am trying to understand why?
<chillywilly> you could have it load the interpreter and make it us python threads...you would need all business objects to derive for Thread class or something
<chillywilly> neilt: cause it is not thread safe you cannot have multiple threads manipulating objects as one thread can undo what the other is doing
<neilt> but geas is not multithreaded
<neilt> orbit is not multi threaded
<chillywilly> yep
<neilt> so why do we have this in the python code
<chillywilly> there's no worries right now
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> probably just because andrewm wanted to go multi-threaded eventually
<jamest> :)
<jamest> because it's fun!
<neilt> will its done wrong
<jamest> honestly I have no idea why it's there
<chillywilly> well w should go hunt him down and beat him or something
<dneighbo> its my understanding in talking with andrew long ago on this
<neilt> because if you try to acquire the lock and the current thread has the lock already it hangs everything
<neilt> according to the docs
<dneighbo> that python 1.5.2 had thread limitations
<jamest> let's put chillywilly and his trout on the next plane to NZ
<dneighbo> python 2.x did not
<dneighbo> as andrew was mad we wouldnt use python 2.x at that time
<neilt> and the code as exits that dont release the lock
<dneighbo> 2.x had gpl issues at that time
<neilt> s/as/has/
<chillywilly> byw, jamest how can I get it to use the python2 interpreter?
<chillywilly> it doesn't liek +=
<neilt> chillywilly: erase 1.5.2 :)
<dneighbo> neilt , are you and reinhard just 100% python?
<neilt> dneighbo:?
<dneighbo> i only ask, because i might have someone that is willing to look at geas
<dneighbo> full time
<chillywilly> uh?
<dneighbo> but would probably prefer python
<chillywilly> I'd code it in python full time if someone paid me
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> if its 'python' isnt acceptable i will accept that
<dneighbo> if its just we dont have time to do the python stuff its easier to slowly rework the C
<dneighbo> then perhaps we can have him eval what it would take
<neilt> as i have said before its not a python issue, its a performance issue
<dneighbo> and given 2 full 40 hour weeks
<dneighbo> you might be amazed
<neilt> if someone wants to write a bunch of stuff in python
<neilt> then test it
<neilt> then recode it C
<neilt> i am all for it
<neilt> but i dont that person the write the code 
<neilt> then say
<chillywilly> we could go multi-threaded now and just use a lock for orbit crap, it wouldn't make a difference though
<dneighbo> you mean rewrite in C if its too slow?
<jamest> chillywilly: i did a ln -s `which python2` /usr/local/bin/python
<neilt> guess it does not work fast enough 
<neilt> and bail out
<dneighbo> fair enough
<chillywilly> jamest: didn't work
<chillywilly> maybe /usr/local/bin needs to be in my path first?
<chillywilly> you got it setup like that?
<neilt> dneighbo: by the end of this weekend or early next week i will have a general interface to python
<neilt> so anything written in python can be called from the geas server
<neilt> then all we have to do is agree on the API for the gnue-common stuff
<chillywilly> bah, I got this other thing to do called job searching
<chillywilly> :(
<neilt> and we can embed it
<chillywilly> I wanna play
<chillywilly> damn it is hot in here
<neilt> chillywilly: with the recent events my business is in the tank
<chillywilly> :(
<neilt> and will be until the war is well on its way
<chillywilly> neilt: whatcha gonna do?
<neilt> GNUe
<neilt> :)
<chillywilly> ya, but how you gonna live then?
<neilt> evil capital investments
<neilt> :)
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> must ne nice
<chillywilly> be
<reinhard> neilt: you hope for rising nasdaq, too?
Action: chillywilly is poorer than poor
<neilt> either rising or declining
<chillywilly> I have no money at all, and about $600 worht of bills
<neilt> money can be made both ways
<neilt> its a real pita when it goes nowhere
<derek> deke how can I make my email larger so i can read it without feeling like i'm going blind
<dneighbo> if you own puts
<dneighbo> going down can be good :)
<neilt> ahh, derek IRC'ing with himself
<neilt> again
Action: chillywilly worries about derek
<neilt> :)
<neilt> unless that is popa_masta
<neilt> :)
<reinhard> this must be something about gnue
<reinhard> it started with andr* always talking to himself
<reinhard> now derek
<chillywilly> that's his dad?
<derek> no
<chillywilly> you were talking to yourself?
<derek> his better half
<chillywilly> oooooh
<jamest> far, far better half 
Action: chillywilly goes to rob a bank
Action: neilt switches on clean mode
<derek> he's making me use linix
<chillywilly> good ;)
<chillywilly> but it is gnu/linux ya know
<jamest> derek: what mail client does he have you using?
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> good question
<derek> i'm not a geek
<reinhard> that's an old sysadmin trick
<reinhard> if somebody wants help
<jamest> in the upper left hand of the window does it happen to say something like
<jamest> evolution
<reinhard> just ask him a question he can't answer :)
<jamest> terminal
<derek> so i have no idea
<derek> no
<chillywilly> evilution
<jamest> on the titlebar
<reinhard> Outlook - Inbox
<derek> i closed it 
<jamest> lets open it up again
<derek> how
<Mr_You> uggh I can't file for unemployment online cause the state M$ app is broke
Action: chillywilly notices that dneighbo seems to be hiding
<derek> the foot
<chillywilly> Mr_You: can;t you do it by phone?
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> on bottom left of screen there is a image
<dneighbo> looks like papers i think
<jcater> hello, mrs neighbo
<dneighbo> next to teh colored blue/green foot
<dneighbo> click that
<derek> yea
<dneighbo> it will open evolution for you 
<dneighbo> derek you use evolution for email :)
<Mr_You> oh uggh.. their damn SSL server is down, but I can still access through non-SSL
<dneighbo> btw: derek is a real world non linux user
<dneighbo> derek what do you think of linux so far?
Nick change: chillywilly -> derek_
<derek> didn't work
<dneighbo> laurie in the window you are typing in to talk here
<dneighbo> type /nick laurie
<Mr_You> chillywilly: no
<dneighbo> as its too weird talking to myself
<derek_> hehe
<derek_> rofl
Nick change: jcater -> chillywilly
<derek> this is the other computer
<chillywilly> I'm going to beat you with a trout
Nick change: chillywilly -> jcater
<dneighbo> i know
<dneighbo> type /nick laurie
Nick change: derek_ -> chillywilly
<dneighbo> on the laptop
<dneighbo> in the window you are usign to talk to us
<Mr_You> uggh our state forked out who knows how much money for all these web-based services and it ain't workin 
<chillywilly> M$ servers?
<dneighbo> Mr_You call thier budget office and ask them who knjows how much?
<dneighbo> legally they are required to tell you
<derek> i didn't see the other foot
<chillywilly> http://www.uniontrib.com/news/uniontrib/tue/computers/news_mz1u18bots.html
Action: jcater is surprised dneighbo doesn't have vnc on the laptop
<derek> i got it
<chillywilly> that's what jcater is an A.L.I.C.E. Ai clone
<jcater> "Did you hear the one about the mountain goats in the Andes? It was baa aaaaad." 
<chillywilly> didn't you just say that?
Action: chillywilly thwaps jcater with a trout
<derek> but its still to little to read well you have work to do when you get home
<derek> and its still to slow
<dneighbo> tell these guys what you dont like about it
<dneighbo> so they can hear a non geeks view
Action: chillywilly runs away
<jamest> derek: i think that anyone forcing someone to use GNU/Linux should have to fix that someone a nice meal, maybe take them out to a movie, followed by a maybe a backrub, um a few weekends of household repairs, oh and at least 4 or 5 evenings of complete pampering
<jcater> evenings? more like weeks
<derek> thank you
<jamest> whoops that was a typo, weeks it is
<chillywilly> ;)
<derek> Ashley wants to know why i;m on daddy computer
<Mr_You> jamest: and you forgot it should be *completely* bug free ;-)
<chillywilly> jcater: are you an A.L.I.C.E. clone?
<derek> because daddy broke mommys
<chillywilly> how'd he do that?
<derek> ha ha 
<jamest> he stood within 30 feet of it
<derek> its a joke
<Mr_You> damn, my laptop sends out electricity through the screws in the bottom.. bare skin touching its constant slight sting ;-)
<jcater> Mr_You: is that a problem?
<Mr_You> got me
<chillywilly> derek: well, given his track record...I wouldn't be surprised
<jcater> chillywilly: I'm a B.O.B. clone
<chillywilly> ah
<Mr_You> atleast its not causing 1st degree burns from the batteries being dead heh
<chillywilly> man, I am a useless human being
<Mr_You> you would think our state would have chosen a redhat solution :-(
<chillywilly> [14:19:55] <pessoa> the only thing that allows billgates-like people to use a GUI are infantile and animalic instincts
<chillywilly> he always brightens my day
<chillywilly> not!
<chillywilly> Mr_You: well, seeing ho redhat is in NC, I would think they would've been pitching a "Linux" solution
<chillywilly> s/ho/how
<jcater> this would assume that linux somehow markets itself
<jcater> which it doesn't
<jcater> even under the guise of a colored hat
<chillywilly> they could've worked a deal, don't ya think?
<Mr_You> chillywilly: they who?
<chillywilly> deadcat
<Mr_You> well... who knows how they went about the decision process
<chillywilly> er, redhat
<jcater> the only marketing linux has is within it's own ranks, and that's typically to incite more confusion (i.e., GNU's Not Linux)
<Mr_You> the reality is that some apps only run on one platform..
<chillywilly> jcater: you seen IBM's commercial?
<Mr_You> so if they needed middleware that could have been part of the decision.. either way.. wasn't worth it considering its not working
<Mr_You> but you would think they would have built a redhat solution..
<Mr_You> uggh I gotta keep workin
<jcater> no
<jcater> chillywilly: no
<chillywilly> I got an mpge of it
<chillywilly> er, mpeg
<chillywilly> heist60.mpeg
<jcater> what about it?
<jcater> is it funny?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> this suit is freaking out and ht ecops are going into tht ebuild and he's saying it's gone it's gone, it's all gone
<chillywilly> into the building
<chillywilly> the servers are  all gone
<chillywilly> how much are we talking about here
<chillywilly> millions
[14:40] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> then
<chillywilly> they got one serevr again that wall
<chillywilly> and another guy is walking buy anf goes hey they took all the server
<chillywilly> servers
<chillywilly> the guy goes no we moved them all onto that one
<chillywilly> the cops are like what's a server
<chillywilly> then guy goes it's gonna save  us a bundle
<chillywilly> then th narrator jumps in
<chillywilly> IBM Server Running Linux
<chillywilly> Good Infrastraucture
<chillywilly> It'll Save You a Bundle
<chillywilly> with a little more detail than that, but I don't like typing that much :P
<chillywilly> it is a 5MB video
<neilt> reinhard: did we say we are going to make geas dependent on python?
<neilt> or did we say it will always be optional?
<neilt> it = python
<chillywilly> jcater: I can upload it to gaost if you want
<chillywilly> er, goats
<chillywilly> bah, i can't drag tabs in galeon anymore?
<jcater> chillywilly: sure
<dneighbo> chillywilly you have highspeed?
<dneighbo> if not i will upload
<dneighbo> derek did you get your email working?
Action: dneighbo will have to look at how to change your font so you can read it better
<dneighbo> and add memory or (Gulp) switch you to KDE
<chillywilly> no I don't have high speed
<chillywilly> but I am a patient man most of the time
<chillywilly> KDE is just as memory hungry
<jcater> chillywilly: not so
<jcater> that's why I switched
<chillywilly> I have run both before
<chillywilly> not much difference
<jcater> Um, I run 40 ppl on the same machine
<jcater> I notice the difference :)
<jcater> but of course that's my choice and your's is your choice :)
<chillywilly> I remember having to put more ram in here to be able to run either one
<chillywilly> 64MB wouldn't cut it for either one
<dneighbo> btw chillywilly i can upload heist
<dneighbo> as i have high speed here :)
<chillywilly> it is half done now
<chillywilly> I am gonna let it finsih anyway
<neilt> is abort(); a bad thing?
<neilt> in c
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-3-ip196.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> neilt: iirc we said no required python for production releases
<reinhard> but it's acceptable for developer releases
<neilt> reinhard: ok thanks
<reinhard> well of course that's not any longer true if we code parts of it in python
<reinhard> l8r all
<reinhard> off for today
<neilt> reinhard: later
reinhard (rm@62.47.44.46) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it.
chillywilly (danielb@d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout for chillywilly[d111.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]
chillywilly (danielb@d172.as4.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> sometimes
<chillywilly> it is like the last resort as all it does it bail out and not even return
<chillywilly> damn
<chillywilly> it stalled
<chillywilly> bah, scp should continue where it left off
<chillywilly> well jcater there's part of th emovie uploaded
<jcater> k
<chillywilly> make masta upload it
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> it stalled on me
<chillywilly> and doesn't contiue where it left off
<chillywilly> why don't some of the open source/free software companies get together and make some commercials
<chillywilly> I'd rather see a commercial for some good Free software than the crap that is normally on TV
<chillywilly> if I see that M$ enterprise software commercial one more time I am gonna puke ;)
<chillywilly> dude, when you see something that says send salary requirements (and resume) what format should you put that in?
<chillywilly> the salary rewuirements thngy
<chillywilly> requirements even
<jcater> http://www.careercity.com/content/cvlttr/10keys.asp
<jamest> I typically use  scientific notation
<jcater> suggests doing it in the closing paragraph of the cover letter
<jcater> jamest: rofl
<jcater> I use imaginary numbers
<jamest> as it's the only way to get that large a number to fit on the paper
<chillywilly> jamest: funny guy
Action: chillywilly gets out the 10lb salmon and has a field day with jamest
<dneighbo> Mr_You just so you believe me
<dneighbo> i have been talking about geas and php for well years
<dneighbo> http://lists.gnue.org/pipermail/gnue-gedi/2000-October/000030.html
<dneighbo> well almost a year
<dneighbo> ;)
derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Write error to derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net], closing link
<dneighbo> OK, I thought for ten seconds on this as masta.  It is REALLY bad idea,
<dneighbo> as it could derail our efforts.. I was going to just delete this mail,
<dneighbo> but I wanted to still send it so in 6 - 8 months maybe it would bepursued.
derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dneighbo> is what i say after proposing it
<dneighbo> almost prophetic eh
<dneighbo> must go
dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: [BX] Now she knows why her cat stays away from me! DAMNIT!
Nick change: neilt -> neil-away
derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net]
derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> jcater: btw, that mpeg is completely downloaded now
<chillywilly> er, uploaded
<jcater> cool
<jcater> thanks
<chillywilly> http://goats.gnue.org/~chillywilly/heist60.mpeg
Nick change: neil-away -> neilt
<chillywilly> ack, run
neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.66.57.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout for neilt[dialup-63.208.66.57.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net]
neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.64.193.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
<jamest> l8r
jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: [x]chat
<jcater> later
jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: 
Mussi (x@200.167.234.193) joined #gnuenterprise.
fitzix (barry@sdn-ar-003cthartP021.dialsprint.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<fitzix> hello
<chillywilly> stop following me
<chillywilly> :P
<fitzix> chillywilly: heh
ajmitch (ajmitch@p49-max11.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p49-max11.dun.ihug.co.nz]
ajmitch (ajmitch@p20-max7.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
jbailey (we-refuse-@fencepost.gnu.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
neilt (neilt@dialup-63.208.64.193.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: 
Mussi (x@200.167.234.193) left irc: 
jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise.
dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: EOF from client
mdean (mdean@arc11x105.kcnet.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> hi mdean
<mdean> hey!
Action: chillywilly is away: I'm busy
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:03:17)
uday (uday@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
ajmitch (ajmitch@p20-max7.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p20-max7.dun.ihug.co.nz]
<Mr_You> damn server virus
<Mr_You> killing log files
ajmitch (ajmitch@p20-max7.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
jbailey (we-refuse-@fencepost.gnu.org) left irc: leaving
<uday> derek:I have a problem with the guest login, whenever I call the method the server crashes
<uday> derek: I tried to use gdb to trace the error and it was in oql/oql.c in the function oql_translate_from_read at the statement - if(strcmp (value,"0001-01-01 00:00:00")==0)
<ToyMan> derek: you around?
<uday> ToyMan: I don;t think he is there
<ToyMan> ahh. i'll catch him in the am, then
<ToyMan> night all
ToyMan (stuq@c5300-3-ip196.albany.thebiz.net) left #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: uday -> uday-away
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
<Mr_You> this guy has created openroot.. allows anyone to have root access heh
jcater (jason@1Cust88.tnt4.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> howdy
fitzix (barry@sdn-ar-003cthartP021.dialsprint.net) left irc: Client Exiting
<Mr_You> umm this isn't a state of the union address
Nick change: uday-away -> uday
<Mr_You> weird
<jcater> what's he saying? 
<Mr_You> blah blah blah ;-)
<jcater> that's what I thought
<Mr_You> well he started out with "The State of the Union is Good" which is normally reserved for the State of the Union Address, but he has used it twice in addressing congress/country
<Mr_You> now he's yappin about terrorist attacks
<Mr_You> his first address to congress he actually would mistakenly call it "The SotUA"
<Mr_You> "condem the taliban"
<Mr_You> guess I won't repeat everything
Sacha_ (schlegel@ken.cs.curtin.edu.au) left irc: Ping timeout for Sacha_[ken.cs.curtin.edu.au]
Nick change: uday -> uday-away
uday-away (uday@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) left irc: Client Exiting
jcater (jason@1Cust88.tnt4.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) left irc: Client Exiting
jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) got netsplit.
jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) returned to #gnuenterprise.
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 01:04:11)
<jamest> did we lose jcater?
<chillywilly> yep
Action: jamest should be studing
<jamest> er
<jamest> studying
<jamest> but is now gnue'n
<chillywilly> are you working toward a degree?
<jamest> lol
<jamest> yes
<chillywilly> I didn't know that
<jamest> however, it'll take about 10 years :)
<jamest> i just went back
<chillywilly> well I am a wiz at math
<jamest> i haven't taken math since 94
<chillywilly> had calc 1-4, differential equations, etc.
<chillywilly> they made me take it ;)
<jamest> so jumping into calc was interesting for the first few weeks
<jamest> as I was in san fran during the 2nd week :)
<chillywilly> ugh
<chillywilly> that can amke things difficult
<chillywilly> make
<chillywilly> president gave an excellent speech
<chillywilly> imho
<jamest> missed it
<chillywilly> is it trout time already?
<chillywilly> :P
<jamest> dude, between calc, gnue, 2 jobs, and taekwondo i am maxed out
<jamest> lindsay filtered it for me and gave me the 5 sentence summary
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly>  how about 18 credits, and a job 45min away, and then sometimes having to go back to school again for senior design meeting?
<chillywilly> s/?//
sacha (sacha@chime-a-202.conceptual.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: sacha -> SachaS
<jamest> chillywilly: actually that was what I did in '94, 14 hours, 40 min each way, and 45-50 hour work week :)
<jamest> that was busy too :)
<chillywilly> ya well i am enjoying being a bum for now
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> MSOE is the school from hell, imho...they cram everything into 10 week quarters...I'd rather have a nice semester
<chillywilly> more liek tri-mesters cause no one goes during the summer unless you don't need to worry about money, but at $15,000/year you have to be a rich bastard to do that
<chillywilly> I saw that I'd be paying one loan for 10 years, that was depressing
<chillywilly> er, I just got the repayment schedule thingy
<chillywilly> catcha later I am going mobile with the laptop cause it is too damn warm in here
chillywilly (danielb@d172.as4.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: 
<jamest> HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<jamest> I bet the FSF is having fits
<jamest> right on the main page of www.gnome.org
<jamest> 2nd sentence is
<jamest> GNOME is part of the GNU project, and is free software (some times referred to as open source software.) 
<jamest> with a link to www.opensource.org
<jamest> nite
jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) left irc: [x]chat
<Mr_You> so?
<Mr_You> in its context it looks fine to me
<Mr_You> or are you being sarcastic?
<Mr_You> oh night
dres__ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise.
dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres_[4.18.171.42]
ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.45) joined #gnuenterprise.
uday (uday@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS (sacha@chime-a-202.conceptual.net.au) left irc: Ping timeout for SachaS[chime-a-202.conceptual.net.au]
SachaS (sacha@chime-a-199.conceptual.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: dres__ -> dres
SachaS (sacha@chime-a-199.conceptual.net.au) left irc: Ping timeout for SachaS[chime-a-199.conceptual.net.au]
<uday> has the objectid been changed to sysid?
<derek> uday: i think so
<derek> read the email list archive
<derek> i recall this being discussed but i dont recall the result
Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: bbl
--- Fri Sep 21 2001