hi perlh sorry for not responding to your mails im not seeing anything in my inbox from you :( derek: you wathc MNF? watch even must be nice having it come on earlier though nope bah you suck i only pretty much watch Chiefs games anymore Action: derek doesnt do much TV other than movies Action: chillywilly only watched Packers games watches diamondbacks, royals (bball) suns (basketball) cardinals, chiefs (football) any soccer virtually no hockey my Packer lineage goes back to Lyn Dickey at quarterback ASU Football (no other college sports) chillywilly: thats cool i used to watch any sport any time ESPN junkie derek: that's about the oldest game I can remember but i got married :) heh and now i prefer the cmoputer i REALLY want a tv card so i can do both my honey watches all packers games with me I have turned everyone into a Packer fan :) my wife lets me watch suns, chiefs, diamondbacks :) oooh I gotta watch Packers talkback you knwo that packer won 37 - 0 in MNF packers mnf record biggest ass whoppin' in history of MNF :O derek is it dont you get my the mails which i send u :( so like james only had sent my your mail id can you give me ur email id so that i can resend it again derek and chillywilly r u there? did you sedn to gnue.org? send yeah chillywilly wait i will tell where and i sent derek@gnue.org is my email oh cool derek i mailed to the following Please email the following information to fsf-records@gnu.org and cc derek@gnue.org, and we will send you the assignment form for your past and future changes. did you put your name in the subject line? and if so what is it? well i did not put my name :( Re: [perlh] GNU Enterprise Assignment this must have been my subject line ok did u get the mail derek :( i did get it i cant explain why but my inbox rule smacked it to the trash can :( that or i accidently moved it there i REALLY apologize let me respond ok thanx a lot derek i am sorry it was my fault to habe not included my full name in subject line i apologize for my foolish act as to the paperwork brian youmans should send it out via snail mail if you dont recieve it in say 1 week let me know and i will bug him about it make sure it got out and get a tracking number for it make sure it got out and get a tracking number for it i dont understand what u mean by this via ups/fedex the paperwork gets sent out for international assignments (i think) if so it will have a tracking number so if in a week if you dont get it we can call them and see where it is oh ok cool usually they send those out in batch? right masta? actually now that i think about it, i think it goes out standard us mail, so then it wouldnt have a number but you got the hook up? chillywilly: not sure i think brian just does it when he gets around to it ok fine so in a weeks time if i dont get it i will should tell u right derek jbailey said they did it in batch but if i get on him sometimes can have it expedited derek: ok perlh: right :P gnue.org emails are working then? as far as i know ok cool i will do that derek well derek i have few doubts on bayonee i have gotten like 100 messages today via gnue.org shall i shoot them yes derek: wow derek: that's a lot of mails www.bayonne.cx or www.ostel.com can get you some more information or email David Sugar ( dyfet@ostel.com or dyfet@gnu.org) or but bayonee.cx is not going since ysterday perlh: you could probably ask Dave directly Rich Bodo ( rbodo@ostel.com ) chillywilly does dave come here btw: if you want help with english i notice you say you have 'doubts' sometimes he is pretty busy oh ok so the best way is to send a mail to him righ chillywilly also, David.Sugar@freedevelopers.net which 'technically' is correct speech, but it infers you dont have confidence in the product which could be misleading so you might say instead you have questions i hope that makes sense and you dont take offense for me making the suggestion i dont get u derek pls explain me na chillywilly then i shall mail me right you said doubts sounds "negative" perlh: if you say you have questions then there will be no misunderstandigs well derek i have few doubts on bayonee which makes it seem like you dont trust them, or that you dont have faith that it will work, as chillywilly says its a 'negative' way of saying you have a question it is perfectly correct english oh ok sorry derek and chillywilly it just has a negative meaning that is kind of 'unwritten' :) no offense taken here at all by us but we are used to dealing with people smart enough to speak more than one language and we realize how hard it is :) none taken here ok thanx for correcting me yep Action: chillywilly is used to non-english speaking ppl on IRC er, ppl that don't speak it as their first language anyway i know i wish someone would help me keep my french up to date hehe derek: what about loic? chillywilly: dont talk about jamest like that ;) rofl gus pls read this http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-7285664.html?tag=dd.ne.dht.nl-sty.0 ouch wow what jerks that is basically stealing, no other way to look at it, imho chillywilly: i agree i can sympathize with how they felt but its wrong none the less yeah i also think the same derek: it doesn't matter even if you feel like crap for losing your job, it is just totally unethical yip i agreed derek: I lost an intership position on year and I was thinking of doing osme really shitty stuff like deleting all my code i just said i could sympathize with how they felt but I didn't doesnt mean its justified I didn't want to create more work for the people that I worked with or screw them over like that plus I think the engineering code of ethics really said to me that would be a crappy thing to do yeah yeah not to mention my conscience and god derek and chillywilly We can't find "www.bayonne.cx". ;) try http://www.gnu.org/projects/bayonne/ if they steal everything how do they expect the company will pay off creditors? http://www.gnu.org/software/bayonne/ a company failing is not always their fault, market are volatile that works especially in theses times, I would not do that to anyone that is just very shitty derek does www.bayonee.cx work for u or not ? derek: Packers are #1 in the NFL for rushing dude http://www.gnu.org/software/bayonne/ this url works perlh: that is the *real* main page for the project that other one is dead now oh ok than chillywilly and derek i will check in there Action: chillywilly is in a state of bliss over his GB Packers man they woooped some butt how can you liek the chiefs anyway derek, don't you know the Packers are the only publicly owned team um cause im a fan Action: perlh wonders who in the world is packers an American Football team oh ok cool derek: I remember the year the packers won it all, they had a tough time in Kansas City reinhard (rm@62.47.44.46) joined #gnuenterprise. against the Chiefs so u guys are football freaks as well ? I am a Packer freak oh cool i couldn't care less but don't let chillywilly know ;) Mr_You_ (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: night i prefer soccer soccer isn't too bad rugby (union) i pretty popular here in NZ s/i/is/ perlh (a@202.9.144.242) left irc: perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. derek: you're a weenies if you prefer soccer, this is America you goof guess im a weenie then a big one too you are no longer my masta I am revolting :P freeeeedoooooom! come reinhard, ajmitch, dtm....we can be free of masta's tyranny once and for all join me in the revolution you think its bastille day or something in here? oh yea yep you can't stop me you know what I am gonna use GObject now maybe some Gnome libs even Action: derek checks into the nut farm heck I am even gonna hack DotGNU support into GEAS masta: you gonna stand for this insubordination? why should I listen to a weenie man? masta is fighting consulting hell right now i will beat him later hehe ya right then you woke up I have taken over flex maintenance and will be releasing a new version in the next few weeks. Thanks for your report, --Will cool thing ah yes and I see I hope you are the correct one to address with my "bug" report: Yes, I am. You can also send your query to help-flex@gnu.org. > reinhard: are you ready for the revolution though? seems like flex is becoming adopted by gnu or something like that revolution? yes, our current masta is a weenie and we need to bring someone new to power lol I vote for you dosn't matter if you don't want the position either you have no choice ;P onyl requirement is that you don't like soccer hehe which you may like anyway i don't like sports at all hmmmm chillywilly: i am also ready :P I guess that is acceptable...why don't you like sports? perlh: you're too new, I;m not sure you won't just turn on us and sell our cod to M$ or something ;) s/cod/code anyway... every physical movement that is not done for nutrition or propagation is unnatural and should be avoided oh man! ok chillywilly hpw much do you wiegh and how tall are you? let me try to become like you guys and then may be try to do that perlh: not sure if you really want that ;) perlh: I'm joking anyway reinhard: lol anyway, weenie man must be stopped oh ok is it ok chillywilly uh, yea....still derek is the false weenie masta that should be overthrown down with chillywilly!! I think there defintely is something wrong with geels who don't like sports either geeks he wants to enslave us all under a harsh regime of physical exercise!! bah, ajmitch you have no power here chillywilly: since when hast *that* stopped me? since I said so glad we cleared that up ;) anywho, if I was the ruthless bastard who deserved to be taken down then I would be nominating myself wouldn't I? sheesh Action: chillywilly pokes derek you just want to be the ruler behind the scenes admit it derek: you're going down man ajmitch: I cannot let my fellow man be opressed chillywilly: then stop trying to oppress us with your harsh rulings that we must love sports! ajmitch: :P masta! plz don't beat me! I'm sorry! the dvil made me do ti! it devil ajmitch: when has SAP ever use OSS? orporates like SAP, Sun, Intel, IBM, and Hewlett-Packard/Compaq are committed to using OSS as a core part of their business and are investing significantly in enhancing its already impressive capabilities10. 40. Andrew Mitchell, Computer Science student, University of Otago (Dunedin) hehe I see your signature stbain (gunandgiz@cx726805-a.roanoke1.va.home.com) left irc: BitchX-75p3 -- just do it. yes gonna make an issue of it? nope, but you should havehim pushing the right values as the OSS attitude has nothing to do with Freedom they justlook at th epargmatic pragmatic are you on that mailing list? heh, I see he wants to live with prop. software ajmitch: are you willing to live with prop. software? no, i'm not on the mailing list well i think i am done setting up 70 new customers (whew) need to run a few reports derek: eh? derek: then you can deal with the evil chillywilly who is trying to overthrow you I gotta go to bed go then don't need to complain about it to us :) derek: customers for what? derek: that site chillywilly: yip night ok derek: you know I was just yanking your chain right? yip k cya chillywilly (danielb@d76.as2.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: bbl Nick change: derek -> dnZzzz perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) left irc: [x]chat perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: Ping timeout for gnuebot[mail.libertydistribution.com] gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ MicahY (micah@c1306879-a.salem1.or.home.com) left irc: [x]chat perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) left irc: Ping timeout for perlh[202.9.144.242] perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) left irc: [x]chat perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@62.47.44.46) left irc: Ping timeout for reinhard[62.47.44.46] reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.71.118.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hi neilt spole with derek today morning all, perlh morning neilt perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) left irc: Ping timeout for perlh[202.9.144.242] perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. hello all btw reinhard: hello reinhard: do you have any idea why andrewm passes a server reference to all python methods? a server reference? well i would expect him to pass a reference to the object "self" so to speak Action: perlh blinks perlh (aravind@202.9.144.242) left #gnuenterprise. yes it does self if also does the connection i guess that is to get more global info neilt: makes no sense to me neilt: self should be enough it should be possible to get the connection object from the dataobject object if needed how, i dont see it in the idl jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hello jamest: hello thanks for fixing my email i received all of my sunday emails after you looked into it yesterday :) i couldn't look at it it's on goats ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: jamest is powerless there will thanks anyway i know thinking about it was probably enough :) neilt: it should be != it is anyone try to segfault geas via that getFullClassDefinition call in the gnuef driver? jamest: thats one for reinhard, i cant run gnuef Action: reinhard hides Action: reinhard hasn't run gnuef for months jamest: is it true that gnuef now depends on python 2.0? yes it's true jamest: does getFullClassDefinition segfault? geas segfaults when it's called let me write a little test program however putting a message() in front of the two functions involved er, in front of the return in both of them Action: jamest cant remember the filenames both print the message fine ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting let me try if it segfaults for me to too where did you try: solaris or gnu? geas won't run on solaris so I ran it on my debian GNU/Linux box at home ok jamest: did you ever try to run schema.py? it uses getFullClassDefinition, too i would wonder if it bombs for you or not ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. schema bombs for me in a different place jamest: where? i don't recall I'll have to look again maybe weds night neilt fixed a bug in schema.py lately jamest: i think it would be best if we looked together when you are home by the way, i am changing the python call api for python methods from gcd's this is not idl Nick change: dnZzzz -> derek ghunt (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest: are you here? hi all hi ghunt jamest .......... ok no jamest will try back later Nick change: derek -> dnWork dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: Connection reset by peer dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. uday (wirc2@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) joined #gnuenterprise. uday (wirc2@host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net) left irc: Ping timeout for uday[host-64-110-96-159.interpacket.net] ghunt (xavier@uu212-190-122-70.unknown.uunet.be) left irc: Client Exiting ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.35) joined #gnuenterprise. hello all jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d175.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. 'sup g sup hi http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-09-25-004-20-PR ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.35) left irc: Client Exiting nice little cluster maybe they would donate one to us ;)...one can dream right? oh great http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-09-25-002-20-NW-SV now we'll get stupid GNU/Linux admins too um, I've already seen those jcater: then don't look if someone were to write or want to write an HR module how would one go about finding out what HR ppl do? I suppose talking to some "experts" wold help ;) Action: chillywilly is never gonna fly with an NT powered FAA jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: later I suppose da masta is not around I wonder if he knew of this JesusGeeks site chillywilly: go manage an hr department for 2 years :) er, that's not feasible neilt: you ever manage an hr department? the point is that there is a big difference between how it should be done and how it is done chillywilly: yes ok ok, then you're the man I need to talk to :P btw, are the methods usable? chillywilly: yes for ptyon anyway nice would I want to use anything else? ;) neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.71.118.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout for neilt[dialup-166.90.71.118.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net] ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.6) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: [x]chat ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. yo da masta! Action: chillywilly begs for da mastas forgiveness jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hey jc howdy ole cold one eh? you mean cold as in a heartless jerk or as in temperature? as in your namesake oh, duh bah I am stupid chillywilly must mean a cold something (I dunno what the something refers to) (and don't wanna know) hehe also, considering he was a enguin his willy msut've been chilly quite often penguin I like my job [12:41] Last message repeated 2 time(s). if I keep telling myself that, maybe I'll believe it hehe I don't like my job because I don't even have one sounds like a wonderful job to me (except for the pay) heheh Action: chillywilly wishes he understood the debugging macros in GEAS so he could borrow them :P nickr_ (nick@sdsl-64-32-227-138.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) joined #gnuenterprise. nickr (nick@sdsl-64-32-227-138.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) left irc: Ping timeout for nickr[sdsl-64-32-227-138.dsl.nyc.megapath.net] I think I get it wow, guess I am not as stupid as I thought I was Nick change: nickr_ -> nickr chillywilly: wrt "debugging macros" glib is all you need reinhard: not for a C++ simulation library that does not depend on glib :P ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.6) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.66.6] plus this thing is multi-threaded so I wanna no exactly what is executing and when so I was thinking of borrowing those macros and making it into a class a Debug class with various members like traceFunction(), etc. or something chillywilly: use python Action: jcater thinks someday python will even solve world hunger jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. welcome, sir jamest de la manhattan :) and global warming maybe even will bring world peace? I'm optimistic i heard a perl fellow at the RMS speech ranting how horrid python was the basis because it enforced 'consistent' whitespace all i could think is i feel for the poor bastard that has to maintain his code ;) lol they should hack gcc to only accept code the conforms to GNU standards as he seemed particularly proud that he used a non standard curly brace method w/ incosistent indenting there's no obfuscated python contests that's why python sucks ;) sure there are how? I've seen a mandelbrot program done in one line reminds of the fellow that paints his home lime green and thinks its so beautiful while the rest of the neighborhood stands in horror as thier home values drop like a brick lambdas, mapping oh ya chillywilly: python is a full-featured programming language... if you REALLY want to write horrid code, you can chillywilly instead there are the 'how little code' will take contests it just takes work I have no desire of learning perl, I'd rather pick of python it is less scary http://internet.ls-la.net/mirrors/99bottles/ is great for this jcater when i told you i used to code on an object database system here is some code for bottles of beer ; The following is a single line of code beer ; Randy M. Hayman (haymanr@icefog.alaska.edu) for i=99:-1:1 w !,i," bottle",$S(i=1:"",1:"s")," of beer on the wa ll, ",i," bottle",$S(i=1:"",1:"s")," of beer.",!,"Take one down, pass it a round, ",i-1," bottle",$S(i=2:"",1:"s")," of beer on the wall.",! i dont know whats more sick. The code or the fact i understand it http://internet.ls-la.net/mirrors/99bottles/beer_i_m.html#mumps the python version is almost as small and most readable of any and it includes ERROR handling :) def bottle(n): try: return { 0: "no more bottles", 1: "1 bottle"} [n] + " of beer" except KeyError: return "%d bottles of beer" % nfor i in range(99, 0, -1): b1, b0 = bottle(i), bottle(i-1) print "%(b1)s on the wall, %(b1)s,\n"\ "take one down, pass it around,\n"\ "%(b0)s on the wall." % locals() thats most notable difference when you get readable code you generaly get good error messages and such as well anyhow that page is a lot of fun cool bbl reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. Action: chillywilly notes the python bottles of beer program makes no sense to him oh, the python could have been done in a single line w/a lambda set how? whip it up man I think I will later on roflmao chillywilly the funny thing is you can use python like a functional language so it will work like lisp btw: functional programming looks cool, but im still not fully getting all of it http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/l-prog.html is a good article on this neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.68.161.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ er, functional programming? jcater i assume you would use this approach w/ lambada you mean regular old prohra,ming with functions? and end up with something more similar to lisp programming even Functions are first class (objects). That is, everything you can do with "data" can be done with functions themselves (such as passing a function to another function). Recursion is used as a primary control structure. In some languages, no other "loop" construct exists. There is a focus on LISt Processing (for example, the name Lisp). Lists are often used with recursion on sub-lists as a substitute for loops. "Pure" functional languages eschew side-effects. This excludes the almost ubiquitous pattern in imperative languages of assigning first one, then another value to the same variable to track the program state. FP either discourages or outright disallows statements, and instead works with the evaluation of expressions (in other words, functions plus arguments). In the pure case, one program is one expression (plus supporting definitions). FP worries about what is to be computed rather than how it is to be computed. Much FP utilizes "higher order" functions (in other words, functions that operate on functions that operate on functions). are characteristics of FP mmmm... tasty jcater: that really is a good article if you are a student of computer science im not advocating we do gnue development this way but it is intriguing none the less yes I've had some experience w/functional programming not much, but some ok, I have seen this with a language this guy was writing get this are you familiar w/AutoCAD ? Action: dneighbo can smell jcater taking on Haskell support to gnuef as we speak :) it's build in scripting language is lisp can you see the relationship? yes lisp is functional language for certain it was nasty this was why laugh when RMS says we should use GUILE (a scheme/lisp) deravative because python CAN do what lisp does you just have to knwo what you are doing in fact python supports EVERYTHING that lisp does except macros what's bad is AutoLISP was meant for end-users to extend their system can you imagine giving your average non-programming power user w/lisp? http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html is a comparison yeah i know is functional programming relaly that bad? thats why i LAUGH when RMS says should be the standard for gnue business objects really chillywilly: imho, the right tool for the right job Biz People cant understand VB much less functions calling functions passing functions w/ out control structures chillywilly functional languages kick serious ass BUT they are not 'common' thus not easily maintainable thus not good for business applications IMHO for example (mumps) not a functional language but VERY much hierarchial data storage enabled kicked serious ass well I have had 0 exposure to functional programming other then hacking my .emacs BUT it was a maintenance nightmare emacs should make a shirt have a scary looking GNU on it and then put Fear The ( )! why is it a nightmare? it is weird imho no flow control statements all done with functions and recursion probbaly just fucks with your head too much Action: chillywilly should pick up lisp one of these days most people who try it like it its just not practical if you want wide adoption IMHO most programmers ARE NOT hackers ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.37) joined #gnuenterprise. and dont enjoy learning new languages but rather frown on it thus why GNUe products will let rules be done in diff languages to accomodate this problem :) Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. hmmmm, most prpgrammers are not hackers... that makes no sense to me chillywilly thats cause you have only seen hackers here on my floor i have about 65 programmers most of them know 1 language and would pitch a fit if learned to force somethign else few of them know what linux is much less anything other than standard MS stuff 1 in 15 doesnt know even basic HTML well the I have only worked in a research lab, so I guess I have only seen hackers i have been other places and this is the NORM not the EXCEPTION in business environments I'm gonna try to mention GNUe to KDE::Enterprise if no one has Mr_You: :P Mr_You thats fine Mr_You: they will probably chase you around with a stick but we arent doing C++ and we arent doing Java :) the more exposure/developers the better neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.68.161.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout for neilt[dialup-166.90.68.161.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net] i would say best bet for them would be to make wxKDE which should be trivial dneighbo: kde ppl *love* python merely take wxGTK and swap the toolkit functions and then we have native KDE apps yeah several people on the wx lists have talked about it so there is help there just no one has taken lead and DONE it the reality is a user probably couldn't tell the difference between a non-native KDE interface and a native one (unless of course it tied into the desktop) but BIG difference example i cant run KDE programs as i dont have Qt installed thats not what I'm refering to if i were running KDE i probably wouldnt install GTK if i didnt 'need' to why have extra libraries if that makes sense if you had both environments installed yes i agree from end user stand point because some apps are GTK/KDE specific.. wxKDE and wxGTK would be probably not noticed but if i made a distro that only had GNOME or only had KDE haveing wxBoth makes it so i dont have to install both librarires libraries I hope to create a distro that includes KDE, GNOME environments, Windowmaker also.. so you could run any app in any environemtn.. just sucks when the stupid GNOME apps come up when you don't want them.. ;-) im not advocating anyone from this team spend the time on such a thing as its superflous but i assume KDE:Enterprise woudlnt want GNUe because its GTK thats lame IMO but i guess in that case they wouldnt want anyhow as it uses wxWindows not native Qt but I guess thats how they'll look at it.. Mr_You : peopel are funny like that anal ;-) hehe OpenOffice promots KDE::Enterprise im all for trying to get more developers doing the SAME thing but I guess they only want/suggest KDE Office instead of going different ways but i learned early on hackers are stubborn you can spend a little time tyring to find common ground and running with it if you find it everyone wins if you dont i dnt think people necessarily lose one thing about GNUe i have REALLY enjoyed is the people i think for us that has been the difference between us still being here and being a dead project on sourceforge Action: chillywilly thinks he is probably the least enjoyed ;) we are like teh slow old dinosaur that keeps on trudging along chillywilly: you can say that again chillywilly not true, in SF we kept saying, 'man can you imagine if chilly was here ' i keep telling jamest if we take long enough soon enough what we are doing will be in style again i.e. right now everyone like .activefoo or whatever the buzzword of the day is and we just keeping going in a vaccum like unix (which is 20 something years old) one day people will wake up and go check out this cool product GNUe ;) we just wont tell them its 15 years old nickr: I won't even dignify that with a response :P Oh btw, I got the go implimenting a form system with GNUe for a local DD management org chillywilly: you just did bbl nickr: so what, fuck off it should be interesting. nickr what is DD? developmentally disabled gungeaon and dragons clinical management side? er dungeaons drug management side? grouphome management facilities side? what part of DD? thats a broad vertical industry accounting, patient managment, drug dispention, billing, insurance claims etc etc I just said, grouphome management, actually they call it 'residence management' or the whole ball of wax i didnt see grouphome management i apologize well, primarily coordinating individual client management i just saw DD management org so each client has several manager type people that need to coordinate Action: dneighbo is ignornant sometimes :) cool im sure we will gladly help to do what we can and then overall management, tie-in with this national org Thats good to hear :) I explained how we'll have to give certain parts back to you to benifit from ongoing development, and the director agreed that thats a good idea he wants to take what we do as a pilot and sell it to other similar orgs well sell the service of it then he started going nuts with ideas about it, like using beyonne so that parents can check scheduling and valuations and such absolutely if you distribute any of the tools you are required to give back your changes on the forms as long as you dont start with gpl forms you can license the forms and such as you like i assume you will use them Yea for this project definitely because their whole workflow is based on forms we'll just adapt them into the system i think it would be a greater service to sell them on GPL'ing all the work you do as the system itself is of limited value w/o the knowledge of a company to run these facilities Well, I think thats how it'll end up but even if just one existing facility takes advantage of the software and submits back a change they benefit well if he wants to sell it to other orgs then it effects a greater nimber of ppl and is more generally useful it'll be legally easier, because of capital ownership and stuff I believe and should be GPL'd, imho chillywilly i have dealt with this stuff before a little bit most of these companies dont have a lot of money for software however most are willing to pay for consultants or services to make them more efficient spread over a yearly contract This is definitely the case than a large lump sum up front for software so the software becomes a vehicle to see the services ie: a loss leader the director is totally sold on this system, because he was looking at 100k just to get infrastructure (50 of which was license fees) nickr: the money factor is always a nice blessing for them doesn;t hurt our cause either well a key factor at this point is we want real world cases so if its GPL he gets some free developers too Yep and that generally helps I think this system will have elements thata are generic enough for any managed-care system ie we have no need for such a system but we have aneed to prove gnue can do useful things so we are willing ot give assistance to make that happen if we do something with the state to link to their computers I'm sure that'll be useful too :) nickr: that is my ultimate goal for such things medical elgibility, hospice etc get free software thats good so a govt can install and give to all its entitites Indeed. make thier life easy and stop the licensing bleeding everybody wins the facilities get more money to spend on people well all those orgs in the NY met area may be paying ME to install them hahaha govt saves money on backend admin and developers still get paid to 'support' the systems indeed. i still need to write a paper on why this JUST makes sense in govt it makes sense elsewhere mind you but in govt led areas its just dumb to not do free software I'm sure the director guy would love for you to make a case study of his org at some point later free marketing for him yip we are working on that with jcater's company now : free is good with this guy I think if i get some time, hopefully we can get it so you can use to better pitch to him okay its not same vertical industry but it will prove that there is functionality in a decent size environment with substantial cost savings In this case it will be indeed substantial Ongoing savings too since they are all paper now. :) are these symbols defined by the preprocessor or something? __FILE__,__LINE__,__PRETTY_FUNCTION__ where? I know LINE and FILE are in the geas debug macros ah ask reinhard :) well, maybe if I look in the gcc manual, although I think I need to install it jcater you here? Action: dneighbo is wondering how abstract gnue-common is as i have an app i need to write that will have command line processing (opt) and will need to read an .ini file i used to steal gnue's opt GFOpt.py before it got merged im wondering if gnue-common would be a useful library outside of forms, reports, designer, geas for example since i already have installed anyhow neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.86.54.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ dneighbo: look at using GClientApp.py it'll work fine for what you want ok thanks brb ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting Nick change: dneighbo -> toleratingRMS dneighbo: wouldn'r that mean you have to GPL that app? chillywilly NOPE im not distributing it oh toleratingRMS: what are you tolerant of? ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.37) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.66.37] reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard: you really here dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: Connection reset by peer Nick change: dres_ -> dres yes sorta chillywilly: __FILE__ & friends are defined by the preprocessor i am renameing the file types for geas methods but only in gnu c they have to be named *.geas.py so we dont accidently execute just any old *.py in the dir structure are you ok with that? is the code searched by filename? or by function name? or is it because every function is executed once at geas startup? the files are located at startup by traversing the dir structure it used to load every file with the name *.py in the dir structure would it hurt to load but not execute? to load it executes the file ah gotcha so if the file has anything that is not a function then it is executed ok so i agree with the change ok thanks toleratingRMS: i would like to hear how your meeting with RMS was neilt: if (g_strcasecmp (&filename[flen - elen], ext) == 0 && (elen < flen) ) the sides of the && should be swapped otherwise it will segfault for file names that are shorter than elen (have not tried it though) sorry just saw you test for that in the statement before so actually the part after the && is redundant -- nickr (nick@sdsl-64-32-227-138.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) left irc: Ping timeout for nickr[sdsl-64-32-227-138.dsl.nyc.megapath.net] chillywilly: to be precise __FILE__ and __LINE__ are ISO (ansi) C standard __PRETTY_FUNCTION__ is a GNU C extension k everything of course just IIRC thanks but will that work with c++? neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.86.54.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout for neilt[dialup-166.90.86.54.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net] that is ht equestion the i think yes they are replaced by the preprocessor and that one does not even know what language it is from my understanding at least k not sure though if __PRETTY_FUNCTION__ will work in C ++ but as it is a GNU thing i think they did it right ;) Action: chillywilly has a nice paper cut on his finger from a cradboard box eeek cardboard I just want a nice way to id output in my multi-threaded lib I am giving each thread a unique id and a name so I am gonna prefix that with the other pretty trace outpyt output neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.87.3.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ [thread 1][GSim][gsim.cpp][line 12]....whatever something like that reinhard: what about my test sent mail yesterday to earthlink address got that, just a bit ago ok i reversed it not sure what i can read from the numbers Number Instances in class mod1::class1 is 0. time to create object and set one field = 187.038 milliseconds. Number Instances in class mod1::class1 is 0. time to create object, set one field, and call method = 164.659 milliseconds. time to call a method only = -22.378 milliseconds. Number Instances in class mod1::class1 is 0. how about it execute faster by a factor of 10 on your omcputer geas is so fast you turned back time :P query found 26 results between city starts with M and zip starts with 68, in 2.631 seconds. query found 269 results between city starts with M and zip starts with 4, in 12.112 seconds. query found 342 results between city starts with M and zip starts with 5, in 10.890 seconds. time to query zip file = 0.041 seconds per object returned. not quite a factor of 10 but somehow faster chillywilly: statistical abberation you have postgres running local, too? neilt: sure it is... of course methods are much faster on my computer yes bah plus a lot of other stuff what you got in there? 500Mhz G3 333 MHz PII Action: chillywilly has a PIII 450 reinhard: are you running x windows? yep neilt: are you? neilt: even over network no, quartz 256 MB RAM neilt: what is the name of that script? gnue/geas/examples/python/neil_methods_test.py k or something like that how do you load the zipcode stuff? sql script? gnue/geas/tools/load_parse_sql.py or something like that and give the file from the web as a parameter a url? no you have to download the file darn and give the directory name as a parameter http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/insert-en-us-zipcodes.geas I think I have th zipcode file somewhere tnx it took me like 30 minutes to load it into the db gawrsh see you tomorrow nite all reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. Action: neilt believes in using real test data ummm, why would you use "fake" test data? ugh bash: ./parse_load_sql.py: bad interpreter: Permission denied why does it tell me that? oh I gotta make it executable duh you gotta give it a dir? guess so dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: Connection reset by peer dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. hmmm, it is just hanging there dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) left irc: [x]chat neilt: how does it know what database to use? dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ack run! Action: chillywilly pokes neilt yes ./parse_load_sql.py ../../gnue-config it assumes that you sit up gnue.conf with the right parameters so that psql works without any arguments if not then edit the /py .py program ah, I deleted my /usr/local/gnue/ dir ah well some other time I'll play with it does anyone ever right anything of decent length in a funtcional programming language because it seems really insane neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.87.3.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: bbl (define sum (lambda (from total) (if (= 0 from) total (sum (- from 1) (+ total from))))) (sum 10 0) that make sense right? heh neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.87.3.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) left irc: Ping timeout for dtm[m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com] ajmitch (ajmitch@p59-max11.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p59-max11.dun.ihug.co.nz] dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) left irc: [x]chat toleratingRMS (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) got netsplit. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) got netsplit. toleratingRMS (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (ajmitch@p12-max7.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres[4.18.171.42] jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201168.flinthills.com) left irc: [x]chat dres (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres[4.18.171.42]: EOF from client Nick change: toleratingRMS -> derek hey dude functional programming is whacked intersting read if you can unstand anything form chapter 3 onward Action: chillywilly is trying, but I will probably hav to read it several times hmmm dcc accepted but no idea where bitchx puts such things will look later must work oh wait now ch. 3 makes sense after the second time :P might put it in ~/.BtchX dir er ~/.BitchX well, this is the first time I ever really looked at what functional programming was and I think it is for ppl with warped minds like RMS :P anyway I gotta boot my new kernel Action: neilt starts to write c to list converter for geas bbl lisp heheh i talked about lisp today with RMS neilt: you ever program in lisp? cya ppl, time for lectures derek: ya, what did he say? chillywilly: yes, i like it but only in school not in production he says functional/structure is irrelevant the reason lisp kicks ass is because it is a giant read/eval/print loop ok rather interesting discussion though i FULLY agree with neilt converting business programmers to such a paradigm will NOT happen over night and probably never :) not when VBA is around jcater pretty much well, hell I am even having trouble figuring out this wacky shit you gotta bend your brain a different way or something we can joke but as long as there is pointy click im a programmer language that works, dont expect joe accountant to become a comp sci major to get his books balanced chillywilly: you are using the wrong side of your brain :) jcater: :P think creatively, not logically jcater : how presumptious lol jcater: "out of the box" right? true you still have yet to prove the hypothesis that chilly has a brain ;) jcater: I should just remove my brain and flip it upside down and hop it sitll works right? thus how can you determine which side if any he is using ouch chillywilly: as long as you were made with a hot-swappable bus chillywilly paying you back for civil disobedience last night :) we know you have a brain you like gnue, makes you pretty smart in my book ;) I know I deserve it derek: really? to me, that makes him a fool :) /msg jcater sometime you have to lie to the coders to get them to work opps anyone who would ENJOY this must be sick well I am starting to undestand this funcitonal stuff so I am scaring myself chillywilly: it's fun to learn, but don't expect to market it unless you are trying to get a job as RMS' right-hand man then you say hehe "I can reprogram your refrigerator in lisp" "after I get NetBSD installed on it" but do we even have a good lisp interperter besides elisp and who the hell has lisp binding to their libs? I guess that would be guile right? I dunno.. I only work here guile is a scheme dialect which is a lisp thing? ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip200.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. right? I guess the best thing I can get out of learning it is to be able to hack emacs like a crazy man Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by ChanServ!s@ChanServ: GNU Enterprise : http://www.gnue.org [If no one is home email info@gnue.org] #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hmm, this gives new meaning to that song, "God Wrote In Lisp Code" chillywilly: I nominate you to write our Emacs<->Forms interface driver what is vba Visual Basic for Applications visual basic for app or some crap apps basically, embedded vb dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Ping timeout for dres_[4.18.171.42] chillywilly (danielb@d175.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error to chillywilly[d175.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net]: Connection reset by peer dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. i keep getting lilo messages so im lost in conversation who makes visual basix :) Action: neilt doesn't do vb never has, never will but basically iirc scheme is a free variant of most current lisp tree, guile is a wrapper to embed scheme into C applications. I think eLisp while free was an older more outdated dialect of lisp. True Lisp i think is not free. **THATS FOR CHILLY** neilt m$ makes visual basic (if you werent kidding) :) i know, just kidding anyone remember pcSchema i assumed as much, but momma taught me ASSUME makes and ASS out of U and ME required in my comp sci program pc==poor chimp ? as was maple and pascal hey now i still use pascal a bit the only other project i work on is all in object-pascal :) the amount of code it generates is object-pascal = 100k, C++ = 1,000k for the same code object pascal is about 2x faster than C++ but pascal is a dead language because its been done lets move on to java :) rofl i LOVE object pascal though i think i replaced that addiction with python i still type := way too much though i really have 1) java project, 2) obj-pascal/C++ 3) C/python projects going i cant program in any language now rofl what do you mean i get them all confused now you have perfect confusion to program in perl i.e. mist 1 2 and 3 together with a little bash scripting and you have a perl script :) chillywilly (danielb@d9.as1.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. new riders needs a new python essential reference for python2.x edition 2 is out for 2.x released in june Linux obfuscation 2.4.10-xfs #1 Tue Sep 25 12:20:44 CDT 2001 i686 unknown weee! damn, I thought we'd gotten rid of him never! we must overthrow the masta! In the voice of a gremlin, "I'm back!" fight tyranny! er, who said that?!? neilt : cool, i thought it got delayed, time to order it the book? yeah i have 1.5.x version and live out of it but you have "jamest: the complete python reference" the essence ref is what got us through first month of gnue forms jamest would say how do i do x and i would look up and tell him how cool never having done before myself :) of course, I was weined using jamest's gnuef code i assume he found better docs or started guessing cause he quit asking so I suppose I learned from it too :) isn't that scary thast what makes python so loveable http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0F3RKGA6MR&mscssid=VUG4W95369PH8PSEPSHC2BNAFV9E06H1&isbn=0735710910 today at lunch i told RMS python could do everything beloved LISP could do except macros and he wasnt liking that :) why? in stock at bn jcater: um cause it hurts his argument of why python is bad :) neilt thanks i wish books woudl be free like the cvs book and the docbook book what is his argument of why python is bad? as i BUY the hard copy but would be nice to get 'new addition' inserts jcater he doesnt argue its bad he is mroe cordial than that he merely argues that nothing is better than lisp at one time he cited licensing as reason not to use python then bolted on that it was not as 'good' as guile/scheme (lisp) now i have evidence that its as good as lisp (minus macros) PLUS can do normal structured programming his argument then went somewhat over my head in that he states he thinks even C can do that no real trick its how it does it that is different and thats where lisp is the 'bomb' did he say that? the 'bomb'? cause that woud be funny as hell if rms said, "man lisp is da bomb" lol GNUe is the bomb it's not what we do but how we do it excuse me, GNUe is da bomb I can see the license plate border now... "GNUe coders do it on all platforms" naw thats da bears you cant use da without being from chicago ok, from memphis... "GNUe is duh bumb" "now give me all your loose change" echelon will catch you ? Action: neilt hides from the fbi raides talking about bombs ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip200.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: [x]chat Action: derek will be back later derek (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: BitchX FTP Site -- ftp://scripts.bitchx.com mdean (mdean@arc10x08.kcnet.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: later m4 (m4@h000094b60f37.ne.mediaone.net) joined #gnuenterprise. m4 (m4@h000094b60f37.ne.mediaone.net) left #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.87.3.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Nick change: dnWork -> derek jcater (jason@1Cust151.tnt3.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Mussi (x@200.167.234.50) joined #gnuenterprise. howdy howdy done any good hacking lately? i havent gotten cvs since jamest broke it (dep 2.0) ;) as too lazy on redhat to move to 2.0 ah not much life is catching up I'm working on a GComm proposal, though as I need it soon what you needing it for? report server hmmmm guess that makes sense :) seeing how the spec says it cant be direct call in gnuef :) suppose you need a way to 'remotely' call it Action: derek has head in rear i guess.. :) how's the view? i was so happy to get an xml file output on report server i never thought about an APPLICATION actually wanting to use it jcater: dark, very very dark Mussi (x@200.167.234.50) left #gnuenterprise. Action: mdean is away: I'm busy Action: mdean is back (gone 00:00:09) jcater (jason@1Cust151.tnt3.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) left irc: rebooting jcater (jason@1Cust151.tnt3.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: you gonna use odl for Gcomm jcater: where is this proposal? nevermind chillywilly: it's a work in progress odl? I still think we should do it in C so you can make binding s for various languages and I also thinkn that the DotGNU ppl would like something like GComm I talked to some of them hehe it is not very long is it? ;) odl is what gcd resembles very closely I'm simply stating needs currently not yet implementation is is like idl + more OO stuff we don't necessarily want to tie this to objects why not? you canmakek a function API if you want too I guess, but I still don't get why you would want it, CORBA is OO, SOAP is OO maybe I don't understand what you guys wanted to do all I know is that for GEAS there's a desire to be OO communication independent i.e., not just CORBA where's the docs for this ODL? ODMG spec I might have to buy that firggin book or just go with what our gcd format is I just think we should have a an libodl and an odl compiler like the ORBit stuff but then generate stubs for the transparent objects and hook the implementation specific stuff into using calling thosethose I just remember andrewm talking about he wishes there was a libodl and an odl compiler or something um, sounds like you are talking about a large-scale task yea an entity unto its own Action: jcater prefers the KISS principle jcater: if you want dates there are other channels than gnuenterprise to pursue them in such as? well I feel it should be generic enough that DotGNU could use it and even bonobo could use it, but I think GNue specifics could be done first er should be I meant, such as what channels :) jcater: i.e., after this week I am gonna help get something worked out I think I have to ponder some more and look at SOAP and xmlrpc again #goatluvin , #swedegoatsex to name a few there's no one in #goatluvin I can grawk a few odl exampes from this one paper, then again the whole methods thing should probably also be tied in tooo.....ok, this is becoming a monster...but if done right you can have any communication mechism you want and also implement the objects methods in whatever scrupting language you want...hmmm...sounds like CORBA to me....gah but is there a point in abstracting out a communication to get a natural language interface? it is like C->GComm->communication protocol X or python -> GComm ->Commonication protocol y, etc. maybe I am just wacky it shoudl all be lisp!!! yea! as stimulating as this is, I gotta run jcater (jason@1Cust151.tnt3.memphis3.tn.da.uu.net) left irc: later derek: I got a lot fo things floating around in my head too about this GComm thingy oooh, I am getting so many funky idears thinking about this how about this you parse th odl and you generate stubs for whatever language using whatever mechnism and it also generates empty methods in whatever scripting language you want will have to talk to jcater on it he is doing the proposal he is LOOKING for input though then calling a method would go: natural language interface -> GComm -> remote mechanism -> methods server -> method in whatever scripting language well I am itching to write something up and then everyone can look at it jcater i think started writing something up might not be bad if you do same I looked at the file he has in cvs so we can compare and merge it has like 3 lines in it unless he's got something elsewhere Please add your ideas here. Thanks. with a clank in between er, blank that's in gnue-common/doc/GCommSpecifications.txt should I put something in there? Or just come up with my own thing and email it? what is .NET using as it's transport? SOAP? I am just curious cause this way we can pick whatever we want this way anyone can pick whatever they want hmmm I am diggin thsi this just sucks about ODL not being a free as in beer standard maybe I should commit my ideas for GComm before they slip my mnd and just stick then in that file hmmmm, masta you would even be able to use different orbs that way too wow, that would rock that is totally cool how am I supposed to do this other thing when I got all thses nifty ideas.... magine writing GEAS and not even hacing to worry about the objects beign remote or not, you know how tight the code would be then imagine mdean (mdean@arc10x08.kcnet.com) left irc: Client Exiting --- Wed Sep 26 2001