[00:25] Last message repeated 1 time(s). MicahY (micah@c1306879-a.salem1.or.home.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) left irc: night chillywilly_ (danielb@d90.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d9.as1.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by chillywilly_)) Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. hey reinhard hello chillywilly: i give up why must the whole world be so for 'web services'? am i missing something? derek: I think GComm would also be useful for DotGNU though ;) cool ven bonobo components could use it even i think i get a headache in other channels and support more than CORBA and methods in various scripting langauges oooh, baby derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net] derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d90.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: MicahY (micah@c1306879-a.salem1.or.home.com) left irc: [x]chat ajmitch (ajmitch@p12-max7.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: http://www.freedevelopers.net ajmitch (ajmitch@p27-max10.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Ping timeout for derek[cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net] derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ reinhard: you here? yes has anyone traced down the segfault I was experiencing or do I need to get more info? the problem is we can't reproduce at least i can't are you using the gnuef driver with the geas sample? because gnuef doesn't work for me :( argh! why? i would have to go through "update python" hell before kerap by now it's too late to roll back 1.5.2 compatibility too I made a easily reversable python 2.0 change and when no complaints were made I think jcater and myself both started doing to 2.0 thing what distro you running? not wanting to break anything on my production machine so if you can extract the error causing code into a nice littly python script that doesn't use 2.0 extensions and can be run w/o forms suse 6.4 i have _once_ updated some packages even from official suse internet page dres__ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. which broke mozilla, hylafax and lpr and costed me like 20 hours to get them work again except hylafax which i didn't get to work after that i probably won't update any packages in my productivity system soon :) dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres_[4.18.171.42]: Connection reset by peer you had a stack trace or something? neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.66.226.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hello neilt morning all morning reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) got netsplit. reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) returned to #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d57.as8.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. re hey jamest i have been thinking i think we need a new mandate, something to the effect of we will support all buzzword technologies IMMEDIATELY as they are released it will give us more users derek: is there a mailing list to get information about new buzzword releases? hey I am working on something GComm - The Distributed Object Glue Intro * middleware is often tied to one method of OO/RPC communication * doesn't allow one to exploit new distributed technologies very easily * developer is stuck learning a new technology and implementing it every time, not easy to switch to something different wihtou rewriting code * also not easy to use different ORB/communication component software * the developer likes choice gnue-buzzword_announce@lists.gnue.org you can find some in there right? "Distributed Object Glue" sounds buzzy chillywilly: why not "GNU dog" ? hmmm that would be cool :P seriously I am serious think I should change it? i still try to find out which problem we are trying to solve here just giving ppl choice and network transparency with objects we can plug in whatever CORBA, SOAP, xrml-rpc, Java RMI GNUe Home Gorwn Objects Grown if you suppert dog you can get all of them ;) Gnue's Reusable Obeject Wrapper Network grwon grown hmmm jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. mornin y'all just the man muuwhahahaha you assume I'm a man I am gonna wirte something up today, I have some notes oh sorry muuwhahahaha just the AI I wanted to see :P GComm - The Distributed Object Glue Intro * middleware is often tied to one method of OO/RPC communication * doesn't allow one to exploit new distributed technologies very easily * developer is stuck learning a new technology and implementing it every time, not easy to switch to something different wihtou rewriting code * also not easy to use different ORB/communication component software * the developer likes choice then reinhard said call it GNU Dog then masta said: Gnue's Reusable Obeject Wrapper Network, aka GROWN what do you think jcater? GNUe's Advanced Communication Kritter GACK!!! lol i think I like GNU Dog Chillywilly's Real Advanced Communication Killer Chilly's Real Advanced Program or Kritter :) killer is better jcater: thanks a lot :(...CRAP Action: jcater couldn't think of a K work that wasn't Kompany-ish theKompany....those guys a buttheads why? cause they make prop. software and didn't you see what their CEO said...calling ppl a leaches and all even thought they leach KDe software oh, well they're just not my favorite ppl I guess Action: jcater doesn't work for them Action: jcater works for his own set of leaches yep, me neither jcater: lol jcater: I think your GNUe contributiions more then make up for it :) I simply think leaching is a part of the modern definition of Capitalism heheh probably it is all "marketing" which comes down to leaching off of something usually I have no beef with marketing as that's a general term I do take issues w/modern marketing practices, though well, maybe I am just to primitive to think of somsething better that's beside the point ooga booga how's that FP coming? has your head exploded yet? umm, I will have to finish reading that paper later that can be some confusing stuff, esp in the beginning nah, it makes sense after you read it 3 or more times ;) Action: jcater has never left the "beginning" I guess it is wacky I'll give it that and only someone like RMS or PhD ppl probably would be mental enough to wrote a large piece of software with it er, write it is defintely not for mere mortals Action: reinhard once wrote a script for autocad a lisp script that is you have to be very careful with indentin g otherwise you will be lost in the ((((())))) jungle we wrote the complete program in school as a project the teacher didn't know lisp himself, we leared it on our own the prog was about 100 lines, not more Nick change: derek -> dnWork dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres__ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error to dres__[4.18.171.42]: EOF from client but then we "reformatted" it == we removed all newlines and all whitespaces that weren't necessary and made the line breaks just before col 80 then we showed to the teacher he went like "oh, how can someone code like that" reinhard: a fellow autocad-ite! what possessed autodesk to use lisp as their scripting language I'll never figure that out they probably had some wacky hackers working there Action: reinhard gets a flashback autocad 10! there's a cool book on functional programming, it is on haskell, but it goes over more real world thing liek a graphics libarary and a multimedia app haha I learned how to use a computer w/autocad 10 heheh or was it 9? I have 10 at home I learned C++ before I learned anything else I learned basic, then x86 assembler, then pascal, then c I only first had a computer about 5 years ago kind if an odd order :) I tried to learn lisp in-between basic and assembler why are you doing desktop publishing? just curious um, I fell into it it wasn't a conscious choice I made but how can that be your an AI, you can only think logically ;) forth is a cool language I know someone who was wirting on e based on forth will i learned z80-assembler -> Basic -> C -> RPG -> Cobol -> CICS -> Schema -> Maple -> Modula2 -> C++ -> PL/I -> Pascal -> Object Pascal -> writing a language that is Python neilt: seems like you're the oldest of us ;) I know motorola and PIC assembly only the most wise ;) how old are you neilt? Old enough haha whatcare you some kinda girl...can devulge your age? ;) s/whatcare/what are s/can/can't Action: chillywilly should go back to bed oh i forgot Java I took Java as an elective :P then there is Unidata, Oracle, Informix RDMS i forgot perl also I dunno why though Action: chillywilly wonders how long neilt's resume is neilt: you always been an independnt consultant? http://home.earthlink.net/~ntiffin/resume.html btw, how old is that picture of you on goats then? you still look like that or are you older now still pretty close reinhard (rm@N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Ping timeout for reinhard[N808P011.adsl.highway.telekom.at] heheh GNU DOG is also GDOG rofl whaddup gdog hehe, nice home page you must hate doing eb pages as much as me web hehe reinhard (rm@N803P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Classic definition: A recession is when you are out of a job, a depression is when I'm out of a job. heheh jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Ping timeout for jcater[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net] jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. argh! fooey what would you call an ORB or whatever SOAP uses to send messages a communication component? that's generic enough isn't it? a thingy hehe jamest: you see my notes from before? GComm - The Distributed Object Glue Intro * middleware is often tied to one method of OO/RPC communication * doesn't allow one to exploit new distributed technologies very easily * developer is stuck learning a new technology and implementing it every time, not easy to switch to something different without rewriting code * also not easy to use different ORB/communication component software * developer is stuck writing object methods in the language of the ORB/communication component instead of a language of their choice * developers like choices dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest: I added a few more things ok shall we call those chillyisms I need to run to lunch Nick change: jcater -> jcLunch Action: dneighbo wonders why people in midwest feel urge to 'run' everywhere they go Action: jcLunch is in southeast * developer is stuck writing object methods in a language binding of the ORB/communication component instead of a language of their choice, i.e, there's no mixing and matching at the object level I changed that one technically by mixing orbs corba will let you do that not really when you egenrate the stubs they are in one language for ORBit it is C, for some other orb it is in C++ (omniorb) if you off load to a methods server with laguage plugins you could do any language...now that server would use whatever communication mechism you choose you could have some python, some C, some guile all at the same time mixed even it si run time this way I think then again with other scripting languages it is also run time but you only get that language for all methods usually I dunno how big of deal this is just something that we wanted GEAS to do lunch! chillywilly: let me think on that list lemme fix up these notyes and this docbook and I can commit something in gnue/docbook/GComm...is that cool ? the notes will then be in gnue/docbook/GComm/outline.txt pending your approval right now Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater chillywilly: this is not a communications server that would add yet another layout err, layer and then you'd have to worry about communicating with the communications server I thought it was a way to abstract the communications mechanism it is... as shared code I just added the methods thing on too as forms wants triggers in multi langs and so does geas for methods ok, maybe I am taking that statement out of context jcater: you want to move CORBA, etc. specific stuff out of the code and into its own thing right? chillywilly: yes we want to move to generic but not as a separate server the code would be present, but you would access the abstracted api which simply would wrap the underlying protocol (corba, etc) but as running in the same process it is an abstraction a library not a server basically neilt: that's your understanding, too, right? well, based on what you just said, I guess it is :) yes you don't necessairly need a spearate server for the methods either that's besides the point but we need a very effective (Speedy) API it could all be in this one lib, now use se the GComm library which shoudl have a natural and transparent interface not a bloated standards body does everything for everybody type api neilt: yes also we need somthing USABLE in the near future yes not a major undertaking that will take a long time to complete jcater: if you only implement what you need to begin with then it is usable in the near future but methods are working now so it does not need to be available immediately I'm not talking methods, but comm abstraction... chilly brought up methods I'm at the point I need something for reports server soon I gotta run to a meeting brb I think they all fit together as we are wroapping up remote objects well then hack something up sort term then I'm in it for the long hall and only if there's enough commonality an not a big performance penalty....I'll have to take a look and see cool i am not against standards its just that there are two types of standards 1) thoes that make so much sense they were merged into a standard 2) those that resulting from someone saying "hey we need a standard here, lets get everyone together and make one (whether it works or not)" neilt: I don't care much about setting some standard as I do in providing the choice of the communcation mechanism and the methods in various languages...I could really care less about a standard...but I am thinking that this wuold be useful everywhere like GNUe, DotGNU, and even Gnome cool but my priorities will lie with GNUe but I want input form CORBA masters and such ajmitch (ajmitch@p27-max10.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout for ajmitch[p27-max10.dun.ihug.co.nz] so where should I put things anyway? gnue/docbook/GComm ? gnue/docbook/proposals ? k thats for temp stuff ok I'll put it there then once it moves past proposal we will move it I am not gonna finish my outline today though :P I gotta do this other thing :( neilt i think jcater's point is he needs RPC for reports he has seen the ORBit(corba) dependency in GEAS which we were discussing fixing some day he is thinking of creating a quick generic api(wrapper) for reports so he can have RPC in reports then we could foreseeably move that to GEAS as well at least that is my understanding nickr (nick@sdsl-64-32-227-138.dsl.nyc.megapath.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: dneighbo wanders off to meeting hell Nick change: dneighbo -> dnMeet neilt: is this fixed now? 15. Bug: Query returns different results between geas and psql for the same logic. "startswith" condition is actually returning "endswith" results. geas guys: quick question: are y'all actually exporting objects via CORBA, or just methods? If just methods (as was what I thought when looking at the IDL's), is the long-term plan to export objects? jcater, they are objects you geta handle to an object and treat it like an object the method executes on geas and returns a result we expose their interface and you call their methods back reinhard: yes neilt: ok i fix the TODO hehe i think the file with the highest revision number in cvs is TODO :) later all reinhard (rm@N803P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. i agree w/ jcater in that we were after a library not a server but it seems that a library was planned i'm also wanting that library to be used in the geas driver but I won't wait for GComm before I finish the driver (unless GComm provies easier than I expect) :) awe, puddin'; why not? puddin'? you 2 need to geta room or something? lol reinhard (rm@62.47.44.71) joined #gnuenterprise. wb reinhard reinhard (rm@62.47.44.71) left irc: Ping timeout for reinhard[62.47.44.71] reinhard (rm@62.47.44.71) joined #gnuenterprise. hmm I have an interesting issue with the job that I may be doing THey are concerned about the availability of support ? Basically they are afraid that I'll take off and leave them with this system they can't manage and not being able to find someone else that can fix the system later that is the case with _any_ custom solution nickr: just tell them "you get the source code, don't worry" however there are several benifits to a GNUe based one just like andrewm did with us j/k haah he's a weenie 1) they'd get the source - unlike some prop systems I've seen where the consultant held the copyright and kept it private just because he's not paid what the hell does that matterm you should hack GEAS anway ;P well the dave no idea who to call er, not paid anymore I think is the real issue because the perception is that there are windows experts everywhere tell them to call you 2) you're not one person working alone on a custom solution, a quick visit of gnue.org can put them in contact with others that could maintain the system nickr: with such an open system they can get anyone to look at it...we would be happy to help ;P 3) GNUe isn't going away any time soon, we may be slow moving but while other open projects fold we still plod along right, thats all well and good but he's a business guy he doesrn't know where to find a linux expert or a gnue expert or whatever info@gnue.org i would think a mail to that address would give him leads as I think several people here wouldn't mind the $$$$ yea hmm we need to probably make a white paper on this i guess I won't object to $ :P Action: chillywilly is a broke broke individual dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) joined #gnuenterprise. uh oh Action: chillywilly needs tunes Action: chillywilly fires up xmms hi chillx0r i dont object to $$ neilt@gnue.org :) nite all reinhard (rm@62.47.44.71) left irc: Those who say it can't be done should never stop those who are actually doing it. ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting ajmitch (ajmitch@p27-max10.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: [x]chat mdean (mdean@arc11x104.kcnet.com) joined #gnuenterprise. anyone home? hi mdean hey chillywilly bah I think I have th wrong docbook style sheet jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Ping timeout for jcater[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net] chillywilly (danielb@d57.as8.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout for chillywilly[d57.as8.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net] chillywilly (danielb@d37.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. its mdean yeah im on my way home i have most of the data changes done and in place i have some questions for you though so i can finalize and get you a diff