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<derek> time for beddie by
<derek> night all
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<neilt> hello all
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<reinhard> hello
<reinhard> anybody already preparing an answer to the volunteer mail?
<reinhard> btw neilt: would you think it made sense to put something in the FAQ like
<reinhard> "i want to help coding. what must i do?"
<neilt> yes, if someone will write it i will add to the faq page on the web site
<neilt> actuall
<neilt> it si already there
<neilt> evidently just does not explain the procedure enough
<neilt> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=General#11
<neilt> reinhard: please respond to volunteer email
<reinhard> neilt: ok
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<reinhard> uh crap
<reinhard> hit "send" too early
<reinhard> hope you don't mind i answered the volunteer mail w/ my buisness signature
<reinhard> not my gnue signature
<derek> no bother :)
Nick change: derek -> dnWork
<dnWork> btw: jcater / jamest i found issue in forms last night
<dnWork> when we do selects and the like
<dnWork> we do
<dnWork> SELECT foo, barney, powerpuff FROM sometable
<dnWork> to be proper we should probably do
<dnWork> SELECT "foo", "barney", "powerpuff" FROM sometable
<dnWork> or even more so
<dnWork> SELECT "sometable.foo", "sometable.barney", "sometable.powerpuff" FROM sometable
<dnWork> i ran into this because i had a table with column desc (bad i know)
<dnWork> and
<dnWork> SELECT "desc" from foo works
<dnWork> but
<dnWork> SELECT desc from foo does not
<dnWork> just an fyi
<jamest> easily fixable
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<jamest> unless you already checked in an update
<dnWork> no i looked at it
<reinhard> jamest: not for all databases afaik
<dnWork> i couldnt find where it was building the field list
<dnWork> i could find where it was doing the SELECT statement UPDATE INSERT
<dnWork> UPDATE and INSERT would be easy to fix it looked like
<dnWork> but the select didnt really build the string it subsititued for a list (i think)
<dnWork> but i was too dumb to find where the list was built
<dnWork> anyhow i must run bbs
<reinhard> jamest: i believe "desc" will not work for mysql
<reinhard> but not 100% sure
<reinhard> bbl
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<chillywilly> re
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<Mr_You> hi
<Mr_You> I've had an enlightening few days.. (pvt msg only)
<Mr_You> or non-logged channel
<chillywilly> ok
<Mr_You> our constitution has been raped for many years now
<chillywilly> I agree
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<Mr_You> http://www.petitiononline.com/SSSCA/petition.html
<Mr_You> http://www.petitiononline.com/nixdmca/petition.html
<jcater> Mr_You: write your congressman!!!
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<Mr_You> jcater: I believe I am... it will be a letter about a few issues
<Mr_You> and seperate copies will go to all state reps
<chillywilly> see now I like that
<chillywilly> if that is what will be done with the info
Action: chillywilly already signed the SSSCA one
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<neilt> reinhard: hello
<neilt> btw i used your excellent email verbatim
<neilt> hope you dont mind
<reinhard> great
<reinhard> thank you
<reinhard> hope you fixed my grammar mistakes ;)
<neilt> nope, your grammer must be better than mine already
<reinhard> oooohhh.... if my old English teacher could hear that... ;)
<chillywilly> hey neilt!
<chillywilly> thanks a lot for the cool book :)))
Action: ajmitch wants one
Action: chillywilly needs to stop giving neilt such a hard time now ;)
<reinhard> btw you all outside europe
<reinhard> you heard that swissair is bankrupt?
<ajmitch> you heard that air nz is near bankrupt?
<reinhard> well swissair was something like the rolls royce of the airlines
<neilt> chillywilly: you already have it?
<chillywilly> neilt: yep :)
<chillywilly> neilt: thanks a lot
<neilt> cool
<neilt> your welcome
<neilt> reinhard: what happened with swissair?
<neilt> i thought they were one of the stronger airlines?
<reinhard> seems that thought was not correct
<reinhard> they could not even afford the petrol for the planes
<reinhard> so from noon european time on
<neilt> thats not good
<reinhard> all flights were cancelled
<reinhard> swissair is likely to be totally bankrupt
<reinhard> all tickets loose their vality
<chillywilly> man the w3c really makes me sick
<reinhard> they can't even pay hotel rooms for their passengers
<chillywilly> lets patent the web out of existance!
<neilt> reinhard: wow
<reinhard> about 18000 passengers worldwide sit somewhere in an airport and can't move on
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<neilt> Among the cost-cutting steps announced Monday by Swissair was cancellation of a payment of 200 million Swiss francs ($123 million or 132 million euros) to Belgian airline Sabena. Swissair owns 49.5% of Sabena, which also has severe financial problems.
<reinhard> yeah that too
<reinhard> so Sabena will be next
<neilt> The move gives the airline time to reorganize without having to file for bankruptcy, which has threatened it since the Sept. 11 terror attacks on the United States. The airline said the U.S. attacks would cost the group 3.1 billion francs to 3.8 billion francs by the end of this year.
<neilt> btw for our european folks, the fed today cut interest rates again
<neilt> and the stock market closed up 100+ points
<neilt> we are probably getting ready for some bad news this week or weekend
<reinhard> night all
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<dnWork> yo yo yo
<mdean> yo-yo?
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<Mr_You> what up
<Mr_You> had a good jam with this band tonight
<jcater> howdy
<Mr_You> probably join them
<Mr_You> Mars Bound Mind (hehe)
<chillywilly> kewl
<chillywilly> Mr_You: haha
<Mr_You> I expected ska, and a few of their tunes were more groove rock.. blues-like riffs
<Mr_You> chillywilly: yeah I didn't go into anything about that yet ;-)
<chillywilly> hehe
<Mr_You> but this is a working band.. they go on the road and have gigs (yay!!)
<Mr_You> well on the road meaning, NC/SC
<Mr_You> but a tour would be fun, I just worry about losing potential income so I need to get my biz going strong..
<Mr_You> and I'm the 6th member currently
<Mr_You> I'd rather get a record deal and play fewer larger gigs ;-)) but wouldn't everyone haha
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<dneighbo> im baaack
<ajmitch> oh nooooooo
<chillywilly> shit!
<chillywilly> hey how can you recompile a deb?
<Mr_You> uninstall and reinstall?
<Mr_You> you want it?
<Mr_You> oops
<chillywilly> gif2png core dumps, it needs to be recompiled
<chillywilly> it even says to recompile it :P
<jcater> run!!!
<chillywilly> libpng warning: Application uses deprecated png_write_init() and should be recompiled.
[22:18] Last message repeated 4 time(s).
<chillywilly> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
<chillywilly> what are you doing now ajmitch?
<ajmitch> testing it by converting gifs with a recompiled gif2png :P
<chillywilly> what did you build the deb with? debian/rules binary?
<ajmitch> what deb?
<chillywilly> gif2png you dolt
<ajmitch> i didn't use a deb you dolt
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> mt connection blows goats
<chillywilly> s/mt/my
<ajmitch> i did it the cheap & easy way - downloaded & compiled, installed into a different prefix
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> you wusss
<dneighbo> yeah ajmitch real men recompile such things into a custom kernel ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> no, real men write a microkernel driver for hurd
<ajmitch> real men don't compile, they use vi /dev/hda
<jcater> rofl
<dneighbo> howdy jcater 
<jcater> howdy
<jcater> have I got exciting news
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<dneighbo> so what is the news?
<jcater> reports
<jcater> This is one of those scratching an itch things
<jcater> but basically I needed a fancy mailmerge type thing
<jcater> and I'm tired of doing the MSWord crap
<jcater> So I can do my layout in KWord or Abiword
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> how does it work
<jcater> using ::field:: whereever a field needs to be saved
<dneighbo> sweet
<jcater> save as LaTex
<jcater> and run through a perl script I'm writing
<dneighbo> perl?
<jcater> it was a QUICK hack
<dneighbo> ok :)
<jcater> basically its only a few lines of RE's
<dneighbo> btw: at some point we should discuss to make a more offical hack
<dneighbo> but i will convert it to python first :)
<jcater> :)p
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<mdean> dneighbo: there?
<dneighbo> here
<mdean> want some XML?
<mdean> of the DDL persuasion
<dneighbo> um
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> well maybe
<dneighbo> i wont be able to do anything with it :)
<dneighbo> at least not currently
<mdean> me neither ;-)
<dneighbo> hoping we can get a shared spec
<mdean> just one table as an example
<mdean> yes
<mdean> ready?
<dneighbo> yes then definitely and cc jcater@gnue.org
<dneighbo> oh posting here
<dneighbo> post away :)
<mdean> <?xml version="1.0"?>
<mdean> <tables>
<mdean> 	<table name="personnel">
<mdean> 		<fields>
<mdean> 			<field name="id" type="auto" nullable="N"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="short" type="char" size="10" nullable="N"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="lastname" type="varchar" size="25"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="firstname" type="varchar" size="20"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="reportto" type="int" size="4"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="department" type="int" size="4"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="pwd" type="varchar" size="50"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="security" type="int" size="4"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="email" type="varchar" size="80"/>
<mdean> 			<field name="active" type="char" size="1" default="'Y'"/>
<mdean> 		</fields>
<mdean> 		<primarykey name="pk_personnel">
<mdean> 			<pkfield>id</pkfield>
<mdean> 		</primarykey>
<mdean> 		<constraints>
<mdean> 			<!-- constraints could be: foreign, unique, or default -->
<mdean> 			<constraint type="unique" name="uc_personnel_short">
<mdean> 				<ucfield>short</ucfield>
<mdean> 			</constraint>
<mdean> 		</constraints>
<mdean> 		<indexes>
<mdean> 		</indexes>
<mdean> 	</table>
<mdean> </tables>
<dneighbo> looks like a start
<dneighbo> only thing in a 10 second glance i see missing
<dneighbo> is WHAT to do with it :)
<dneighbo> ie: we should have to tell whether its CREATE, ALTER, DROP
<dneighbo> that we are giving to it
<dneighbo> maybe <table name="foo" action="create">
<dneighbo> or something
<mdean> you're talking in packages again :)
<dneighbo> well yes and now
<dneighbo> er no
<dneighbo> it is package independent
<dneighbo> or are we shooting for initial installs only to start with (which is fine)
<mdean> alter and drop depend on state, which this doesn't address
<mdean> this is the definition of the schema in a neutral format
<dneighbo> ok, lets do the KISS
<dneighbo> and just for now work with making creates :)
<dneighbo> it state non dependent
<mdean> I figure the SQL can be created via XSLT
<dneighbo> ok for now
<mdean> using things like pgsql.xsl, mysql.xsl, etc
<dneighbo> im just happy to have a standard :)
<dneighbo> xml file
<mdean> generates an XML file containing a CDATA section of SQL
<dneighbo> if for now we make staments off xslt great
<mdean> I think it's very maintainable that way
<dneighbo> eventually i hope to make nice management tool but KISS works for me :)
<dneighbo> mdean: its DEFINITELY better than how most of us do it now :)
<mdean> what do you envision for a mgmt tool?
<mdean> better than what I'm doing!
<dneighbo> mdean: i evision a nice tool to create the files
<mdean> the schema, right?
<dneighbo> yes
<mdean> yep
<dneighbo> so you get a nice gui to build tables which creates our xml files
<mdean> yes
<dneighbo> then offer more complex stuff
<mdean> would be a simple app, actually
<dneighbo> so the thing can be all in memory w/o writing out files
<dneighbo> etc
<dneighbo> and incorporated into installers and such
<dneighbo> but for now JUST HAVING THE SPEC is HUGE!
<dneighbo> and then doing quick xsl to make .sql files
<mdean> DOM would work well for in-memory storage
<dneighbo> is so nice that it makes it so we can leave for someone else that isnt busy doing other critical things can play to make gui and such :)
<dneighbo> like a carrot on a stick
<mdean> hehe
<dneighbo> give enough to be VERY useful but let someone else refine it :)
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<mdean> dneighbo: schema is on its way to you
<dneighbo> in xml? ;)
<mdean> heh - no, something currently useful
<dneighbo> useful
<dneighbo> isnt that against some free software programmer rule?
<mdean> if it's free, it certainly can't be useful
<mdean> does Python have a native XSLT engine?
<dneighbo> no it has 3rd party
<dneighbo> well let me rephrase that
<dneighbo> in 1.5.2 no
<dneighbo> in 2.x im not sure, but i dont think so
<dneighbo> sabltron was what i was looking at
<mdean> I read that 4DOM was included?  but not sure if it's documented or what
<dneighbo> hmmm
<mdean> I installed Sablotron just a little bit ago, but I can't reach the site with the python module
<dneighbo> sabltron looked good to me
<dneighbo> and supported lots of languages
<mdean> yes
<mdean> even PHP ;-)
<dneighbo> which made it appealing incase others wanted to use write own in favorite language
<mdean> yup
<dneighbo> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pysablot/
<mdean> is it "useful"?
<dneighbo> seemed to be, but i didnt get past installing it
<dneighbo> and got side tracked :(
<dneighbo> PySablot provides a simple API for in-memory XSLT transformations or file-2-file transformation.
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<dneighbo> here is myselfish thinking
<dneighbo> we do it in python
<dneighbo> as i recall you saying the php folks dont like xml dependency (ie special compile)
<mdean> I plan on doing it in Python ;-)
<dneighbo> the gnue folks are expecting some work to install (as the stuff is a bit more complex)
<dneighbo> for dcl
<dneighbo> we run the changes to create .sql adn check  in the .sql files
<dneighbo> so the php folks dont have to use the tool only the developers :)
<mdean> yep
--- Wed Oct  3 2001