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<perlh> hi reinhard
<perlh> how are u doing
<reinhard> hi perlh
<reinhard> thanks fine
<reinhard> and you
<reinhard> ?
<reinhard> any news regarding bayonne or geas?
<perlh> :(
<perlh> reinhard i have not yet got the assignments 
<perlh> can u pls check with the relevant person and let me 
<perlh> know i want to start it
<perlh> :(
<perlh> reinhard are u there pls
<reinhard> here again
<reinhard> sorry i am in and out today
<reinhard> perlh: you can really start without the assignments
<reinhard> they are more a formal thing
<reinhard> so we will gladly appreciate your work
<reinhard> even when your assignment is not yet done
<reinhard> only thing will be we have to wait for assignment before we can include something in an official distribution
<reinhard> but just to make sure
<reinhard> **********************************
<reinhard> note to derek:
<reinhard> can you please check the state of perlh's assignment
<reinhard> thanks
<reinhard> **********************************
<perlh> thanx a lot reinhard
<perlh> is it 
<perlh> so can i start without any of them 
<perlh> then can u pls point me to a proper quick start guide
<perlh> for starting to work for this
<reinhard> just a sec
<reinhard> i can give you the text i wrote to another volunteer yesterday :)
<reinhard> The first step is always becoming familiar with what is there now. The 
<reinhard> current components of GNUe can be developed quite independently of each 
<reinhard> other, so you will probably pick one of the basic components you want to 
<reinhard> concentrate on. As you are experienced with C, you might want to have a 
<reinhard> look at GEAS, the Application Server, which is written in C.
<reinhard> There have been a lot of changes since version 0.0.6, which is the 
<reinhard> latest release, so you will probably want to download the current CVS 
<reinhard> version. You find instructions to do so on http://www.gnuenterprise.org
<reinhard> If you have problems with downloading, configuring, compiling, or 
<reinhard> understanding GEAS, we are reachable nearly 24 hours a day in IRC at 
<reinhard> irc.openprojects.net channel #gnuenterprise. If you don't have access to 
<reinhard> IRC, you can write a mail to gnue-geas@lists.gnue.org which is a mailing 
<reinhard> list specialized for the Application Server.
<reinhard> Of course other parts of GNUe also need help, so if you are (for 
<reinhard> example) interested in GUI programming, you could help out with the 
<reinhard> front end (GNUe Forms). Be aware that most parts of GNUe except GEAS are 
<reinhard> written mainly in Python, not in C. But our experience is that Python 
<reinhard> can be learned very quickly.
<reinhard> As soon as you have gotten an overview of the whole thing, you can pick 
<reinhard> a task you want to work on (some tasks are documented in the TODO file 
<reinhard> which you find among the sources, and some tasks certainly exists that 
<reinhard> we haven't even found out that they should be done ;))
<reinhard> --
<perlh> i am sorry to tell u one thing
<perlh> can u pls
<perlh> mail this to me at
<perlh> perlhin2k@yahoo.com
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<perlh> ok cool reinhard
<perlh> i get it reinhard
<reinhard> perlh: shall i mail it
<reinhard> or not?
<perlh> yeah it would be nice if u can
<perlh> but if it is a problem for u then no problem reinhard
<reinhard> can you give me your email address?
<perlh> yeha sure reinhard
<perlh> perlhin2k@yahoo.com
<reinhard> sent
<perlh> thanx a lot reinhard
<perlh> i will follow what u have adviced in that
<reinhard> no prob
<perlh> :P
<reinhard> if you have problems please let me know
<perlh> yeah sure reinhard
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<neilt> hello all
<perlh> hi neilt
<reinhard> hello
<reinhard> neilt: you said you copied my mail verbatim
<reinhard> may i ask where?
<perlh> :-/
<neilt> in response to another help email on the info@gnue list
<perlh> oh ok
<reinhard> neilt: ah
<reinhard> cool
<reinhard> i think it could make a good boilerplate for responses
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<jamest> g'day
<reinhard> hello captain
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<ToyMan> mornin' all
<jamest> hi
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<neilt> i have a python question for the pros
<neilt> what is the validity of a loop variable outside of the loop
<neilt> for example
<neilt> for a in range(x)
<neilt> what is the value of "a" after the loop terminates
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<jamest> neilt: IIRC it's the last value a was assigned
<dnZzzz> >>> for a in range(1,10):
<dnZzzz> ...   print a
<dnZzzz> ... 
<dnZzzz> 1
<dnZzzz> 2
<dnZzzz> 3
<dnZzzz> 4
<dnZzzz> 5
<dnZzzz> 6
<dnZzzz> 7
<dnZzzz> 8
<dnZzzz> 9
<dnZzzz> >>> print a
<dnZzzz> 9
<dnZzzz> >>> 
<dnZzzz> it holds the last value
<dnZzzz> at least in 1.5.2 ;)
Nick change: dnZzzz -> derek
<derek> jcater are you alive yet this morning?
<derek> hi rod_
<chillywilly> ello folks
Action: derek falls off chair
<chillywilly> what's shakin'?
<derek> chillywilly: you know its not legal for kernel hackers to check in documentation
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> dude
<chillywilly> I had to get that non-free software off my machine
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> and remove non-free sections from sources.list
<chillywilly> No non-free packages installed on obfuscation! rms would be proud. 
<jcater> back
Action: jamest is terrified
Action: jamest needs to update his ximian gnome installation
<jamest> on a solaris box
<jcater> ick
<jcater> you poor, poor soul
<jamest> i guess I could compile it from src
<jamest> but that's like 15 hundred tar.gz files
<jamest> :)
<derek> rofl
<jcater> when are you going to learn?
<derek> time to try ports on your solaris stuff
<jcater> stop using these linux-clones
<jcater> and use the real thing
<derek> yeah SCO baby ;)
<chillywilly> gnu/linux damn you
<jcater> chillywilly: they extended their name?
<jcater> since when did they include the damn you part?
<jcater> although that'd be a great distro name for punkers
<jcater> "GNU/Linux Damn You!"
<jcater> V8.0
<derek> jcater v2.69
<jamest> talk about support
<jamest> helix-update doesn't work at all anymore
<derek> rofl
<derek> backwards compatiablity to gnome team means
<reinhard> jamest: you might be interested
<derek> it will upgrade when you arent looking (i.e. you have your back turned)
<reinhard> in a mail that i just got from the gnome mailing list
<chillywilly> start a debian solaris distro
<derek> it has nothing to do with working with older versions of things
<reinhard> "Boy, compiling gnome stuff on Solaris is a nightmare.
<reinhard> "
<derek> chillywilly: i think there was one and it slowly died
Nick change: derek -> dnWork
<chillywilly> does ports work on solaris?
<jamest> reinhard: compiling gnome on solaris was impossible
<jamest> ximian had it working and for some reason it wasn't public knowledge on how to do it
<jamest> i don't recall the details but it had something to do with the 64bit system IIR
<jamest> IIRC
<jamest> maybe I need to just use KDE instead
Action: jamest ducks
<chillywilly> that's your perrogative
Action: chillywilly whaps jamest with a trout
<chillywilly> I'm not endorsing non-GNU software when there's a GNU choice
<chillywilly> ;)
<reinhard> chillywilly: you still consider GNOME be GNU software?
<chillywilly> but I would encourage not to use ximian gnome as they suck, but as Cgabriel said to me ximian is not Gnome
<chillywilly> yes, because of ppl like Cgabriel
<chillywilly> George Lebel
<chillywilly> Havoc Pennington
<chillywilly> some of the ximian guys aren't so bad either....just Miguel I don't care for
<chillywilly> espcially for what he said on the dotgnu developers list about being a GNU project
<jamest> chillywilly: i wanted to use gnome binaries but gnome.org tells you to go get it up the butt, er, i mean get binaries from ximian
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> gnome does not provide a binary distribution
<chillywilly> :(
<reinhard> just as well as GNU doesn't btw
<chillywilly> Gnome is a mess though, I give it that but debian's Gnome rox
<chillywilly> doesn't help solaris though...and compiling it is no fun
<chillywilly> Gnome should go to a more democratic process like debian
<chillywilly> then they can get some real leadership
<chillywilly> imho'
<chillywilly> I don't see ximian looking out for community interests
<chillywilly> they don't even know how to cooperate with anyone
<chillywilly> http://www.ofset.org
<chillywilly> nice org
<jcater> chillywilly: neat
<jcater> one thing I'd like to eventually see w/GNUe are educational packages
<jcater> (key word: eventually :)
<chillywilly> look who is at the top of the members page
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> hehe
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<chillywilly> very useful for Gnome hacking
<chillywilly> http://www.ofset.org/projects/doc/doc.html
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<chillywilly> and Havoc's book
Action: chillywilly needs to revive his little dead Gnome project
<neilt> jamest: thanks
<jamest> neilt?
<chillywilly> tp://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-10-03-018-20-NW-CY-LL
<chillywilly> damn
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-10-03-018-20-NW-CY-LL
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-10-03-014-20-NW-GN
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<neilt> yes
<neilt> jamest: yes
<jamest> what was the thanks for?
<jamest> bbl
<neilt> the
<neilt> help
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<chillywilly> masta
<dneighbo> hello
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<chillywilly> jeffery
<jbailey> not quite, try again. =)
<chillywilly> darn
Nick change: jbailey -> odiferous-jbailey
<chillywilly> I quit
<chillywilly> :P
<odiferous-jbailey> ;)
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<chillywilly> that's your name?
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> that's unique
<dneighbo> is odiferous even a real word?
<dneighbo> i thought it was just a charles barkley phrase :)
<chillywilly> donn s derek a real word?
<neilt> chillywilly: http://www.advogato.org/person/jbailey/
<neilt> chillywilly: http://www.afriendlyletter.com/images/jbailey.html
<jbailey> neilt: Bored?
<chillywilly> sheesh, neilt you're like the FBI or something :P
<jbailey> The second one isn't me. =)
<neilt> http://www.hull.ac.uk/geog/html/jbailey.html
<jbailey> The first one is.  I never figured out the point of advogato, so I think I've logged in twice.
<chillywilly> rofl
<jbailey> Still not me..  My hair's longer and I don't have glasses.
<jbailey> There's probably a few other details
<chillywilly> jb you;re that old man jus admit it you geezer
<dneighbo> http://images.google.com/images?q=jbailey
<dneighbo> jbailey you can pick the you, that you want to be :)
<jbailey> oh dear.
<jbailey> How 'bout I don't. =)
<neilt> thats cool
<dneighbo> http://www.wested.org/cs/wew/view/u/17
<dneighbo> http://images.google.com/images?num=20&hl=en&q=neilt
<dneighbo> produces humor too you know :)
<neilt> but i dont try to hide my name from cw
<neilt> beside my picture is already published
<neilt> http://goats.gnue.org/mugshots/neilt.html
<dneighbo> this is true
<dneighbo> btw: i think some of your groupies showed up at the LWCE booth
<chillywilly> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.ameraucana.org/images/neilt.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.ameraucana.org/neilt.html&h=293&w=232&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dneilt%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den
<dneighbo> they wanted to see 'neilt'
<chillywilly> neilt: you really let youserlf go
<chillywilly> what?
<dneighbo> chicken breeder eh :)
<dneighbo> closed vendors rock
<dneighbo> here is a bug from quicken
<dneighbo> it basically fsck you if you use a mouse
<dneighbo> thier answer
<dneighbo> :uninstall mouse
<dneighbo> :dont use scrollbars in quicken
<dneighbo> nice choices eh
<dneighbo> http://www.msnbc.com/news/637604.asp#BODY
<dneighbo> only windows is capable of having a mouse driver kill an applicatoin
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> rofl
<chillywilly> that's what happens when you tie the GUI to the kernel
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> They should just say, "One solution is to not use a mouse"
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Action: chillywilly is away: lunch
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<Delta-t> morning
<dneighbo> good morning
<Delta-t> later
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<jbailey> Do you folks have a chart somewhere of when you'd ideally like to have various pieces of gnue finished?
<jbailey> I had a guy tell me today that he hasn't found any decent CRM packages, and mentioned he might be willing to pay me to help write one..  I haven't committed to it, but being paid to do GNUe stuff might be cool.
<jbailey> Even if it is written in snake.
<dneighbo> ok two points
<dneighbo> a. i am doing some crm stuff for dcl, that could be used possibly as a start, its not 'official' gnue stuff, but its using gnue tools
<dneighbo> b. i will agree with RMS in some fashions, one such fashions is that its not a race it will get done when it gets done, and it will get done sooner if you help. :) (to quote him loosely) ;)
<dneighbo> on the other hand i think to be successful in the enterprise we need timelines
<dneighbo> i just think we need realistic ones :) i dont think we are to point where we can put realistic dates on packages
<dneighbo> on tools perhaps
<dneighbo> it will take committals like you are proposing to do 'things' with gnue to drive its development
<dneighbo> if you can give me some specs loosely on what you need for crm i can tell you how close the stuff im doing for DCL is matching that
<dneighbo> thus give you a date on what it would take to add the features you are missing :)
<chillywilly> what kinds of things are involved in CRM anyway?
<chillywilly> jbailey: what's wrong with snake?
<chillywilly> jbailey: if you are a C++ fan, and I gather you are, how can you not like python?
<jbailey> dneighbo: I'll ask - He just mentioned it this morning, and it's not in scope for what we're working on, but then he mentioned paying for development, so I thought of GNUe. =)
<jbailey> It will get done when it gets done, but sometimes you can look at something and say "not in 2002". =)
<chillywilly> someone else wanted to contribute a CRM and HR module
<chillywilly> perlh did
<chillywilly> iirc
<jbailey> chillywilly: The biggest reason I dislike python is because it's another language to learn..  I think I dislike it because it's popular.  If it weren't popular, I could get on with my life never having to think about porting to yet another scripting language. =)
<dneighbo> jbailey : yes i didnt mean to be a jerk in that answer, just saying want to be realistic :)
<jbailey> dneighbo: Concur.  You'll notice I asked 'if' you had it, not where it was because I understand what volunteer programming is like.
<dneighbo> if someone was SERIOUS about CRM i think we could have rudimentary CRM w/in the month
<dneighbo> and some pretty impressive CRM by end of year
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<dneighbo> as currently in DCL we have account (not accounting) structure and contact structure
<dneighbo> that is rather flexible (unlimited contact info per contact) contact can be on more than one account etc etc etc
<jbailey> Nice.
<dneighbo> we also have the start for contact logs
<dneighbo> so when some calls you log it, with notes etc
<jbailey> Do you not want to commit that because it's doesn't use the infrastructure of gnue?
<dneighbo> um it should use geas to be official
<dneighbo> the original version is checked in
<dneighbo> at gnue/gnuef/samples/track/ i think
<jbailey> BTW, I haven't forgotten about packaging GNUe.  I've been arguing with the build environment.
<dneighbo> it was just playing around
<dneighbo> it was contacts only
<dneighbo> so you had a contact that could have unlimited phone, email, etc
<dneighbo> and then it had logging of 'contact' with that person
<dneighbo> the dcl stuff decided to go one step further
<dneighbo> and separate out the 'company' (account)
<dneighbo> so you can manage by account or by contact
<dneighbo> or both
<chillywilly> what functions are in HR and CRM?
<dneighbo> the data structures are built now
<chillywilly> what di they involve exactly
<dneighbo> and the maintance forms are done
<dneighbo> but not the 'heart of the application' forms
<dneighbo> they are probably in dcl cvs tree under dcl/gnue/
<jbailey> chillywilly: What he's described is your basic start to CRM.  You just need to integrate reminders, and order/RMA/support tracking to do it right.
<chillywilly> and why don't we hav some docs explaining these processes or at least general overview for us clueless developers
<jbailey> Cradle to grave customer management. =)
<dneighbo> i dont know what you client is aiming at
<dneighbo> but for its for trouble tickets, work orders (programming tasks)
<chillywilly> you wanna have a generic package that can be adopted right?
<dneighbo> and has it bound to 'contact/account' so you can use it bill (dcl that is)
<jbailey> dneighbo: What you've described sounds like what he wants.  The only other thing he mentioned needing in the future was the ability to create a WO and assign it.
<chillywilly> so you need to find out the common things in each industry
<dneighbo> jbailey: see my comment above :)
<chillywilly> right?
<dneighbo> dcl would let you generate a work order and bind it to the contact
<dneighbo> and then collect time against it for billing
<dneighbo> and invoicing
<jbailey> Nice.
<dneighbo> the CRM part can be used separate by a SALES FORCE
<dneighbo> as well
<dneighbo> to log converstations outside work orders
<jbailey> dneighbo: So here's the question.  How long to implement that in GNUe?  (I'm trying to think... If he's willing to pay for it...)
<dneighbo> and log followup calls etc
<dneighbo> collect data etc
<dneighbo> um the wo/ticket stuff is done
<dneighbo> its in DCL (webbased) but its very functional and mature
<dneighbo> the contact stuff mdean and i hope to have implemented by months end 
<dneighbo> the sales side would be GNUe based and the workorder side woudl be seamless in DCL
<dneighbo> then we are figuring maybe another 2 weeks to add more complex fields for billing the accounts off the time cards
<dneighbo> so probably by xmas you could have a hybrid functioning system
<dneighbo> if not by thanksgiving
<jbailey> thanksgiving...
<jbailey> er..
<jbailey> 4 days from now?
<dneighbo> dont know if that is too far off
<dneighbo> thanksgiving is like 2 months away right ?
<jbailey> oops.  forgot.  y'all are americans. =)
<dneighbo> well like 6 weeks or so
<jbailey> This weekend in Canada. =)
<dneighbo> ah
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> yeah you know us gnue developers and our crack
<dneighbo> anything is possible
<dneighbo> even pulling a CRM system out your ass in 4 days
<jcater> why not?
<jbailey> *my* ass? =)
Action: chillywilly takes a big hit off of his crack pipe
<jbailey> that explains the... er....
<dneighbo> well i prefer to only pull things out my own ass
<dneighbo> but if the money is right i suppose i could be con'ed into pulling it out someone elses:)
<jbailey> anyone interested in me seeing if I can arrange some cash for you to work on this?
<neilt> dneighbo: i have a week available before i go back to work :)
<dneighbo> um that would be nice
<neilt> jcater: sure
<chillywilly> jbailey: hell yea
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<jbailey> James T on the bridge of the GNU Enterprise.  To boldly write freesoftware, that noone has writ before.
<chillywilly> lol
<Mr_You>  /topic <jbailey> James T on the bridge of the GNU Enterprise.  To boldly write
<Mr_You> +freesoftware, that noone has writ before.
<chillywilly> the captain just beamed down though
<chillywilly> ;)
<Mr_You> no one is two words if I recall ;-)
<reinhard> beam me up scotty
<chillywilly> yes Mr_You
<chillywilly> we want that topic!
<reinhard> there's no intelligent life down here
<chillywilly> masta!
<chillywilly> ouch
<Mr_You> (our gov'ts are lying to us about ET)
<chillywilly> uh oh
<Mr_You> ho hum, what to do today ;-)
<chillywilly> study alien technology
<Mr_You> I wish
<chillywilly> haha
<Mr_You> actually I think that will become a hobby for a lot of us in the years to come
<chillywilly> what's the saying on the X files?
<chillywilly> something about believing or what not
<Mr_You> The Truth is Out There?
<chillywilly> aaaah
<chillywilly> that's it
<chillywilly> dooooo deeee dooooo deeee ddeeeee dooooo
<Mr_You> what I find neat (this isn't the place really for this) is that our military has possibly scene the technology of aliens change over the past 50 years
<chillywilly> deee deee doooood dooo dooo dooo dooooo
<Mr_You> s/scene/seen/
<Mr_You> personally I don't care if anyone thinks I'm a freak they should ask me for my resources ;-)
<chillywilly> mayube you're really an alien
<chillywilly> how do we know you aren't?
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> trust no one
<Mr_You> if I was I wouldn't be here ;-)  
<chillywilly> you'd be read to gove up on humanity?
<jbailey> Abandon the search for truth; settle for a good fantasy.
<Mr_You> jbailey: I know the truth, I partly wished I lived in ignorant bliss tho.
<jcater> just repeat after me... "what's wrong with that? I don't understand?"
<jcater> DMCA? "what's wrong with that? I don't understand?"
<jcater> War? "what's wrong with that? I don't understand?"
<Mr_You> its logical to expect intelligent beings to find US, not us find them
<reinhard> it's unlogical to expect intelligent beings to be interested in us, as we are completely boring
<Mr_You> I like "What is  it good for?!  Abosolutely nuthin!"
<Mr_You> ;-)
<nickr> War! Huh! Good God y'all
<Mr_You> reinhard: compared to say, umm... dolphins?
<Mr_You> nickr: ou got it
<Mr_You> DMCA! Huh!  Good God Ya'll!
<reinhard> Mr_You: no, compared to say, umm.... other intelligent beings :)
<nickr> dolphins are interesting
<nickr> they just don't have much to talk about except for fish
<reinhard> if i was a alien
<reinhard> i would probably find it more interesting to look at, say
<chillywilly> reinhard: you are very alien-like
<chillywilly> :P
<reinhard> a opposite sex alien of the same species than at a human ;)
<nickr> maybe those aliens don't have two sexes
<nickr> maybe they have twelve
<reinhard> wow
<reinhard> must give cool ganbangs
<reinhard> ok
<Mr_You> cseti.org, disclosureproject.org majesticdocuments.com
<reinhard> stop this now please ;)
<jbailey> That was always the cooloest thing about galactic bloodshed.
<jbailey> Imagining the 5 sexes. =)
<chillywilly> reinhard: the truth is out there
<Mr_You> those urls give us the truth.. the truth from gov't personell
<chillywilly> I think ppl invent some stuff just to escape from the boredom of life
<chillywilly> or just to gice themselves something to do
<chillywilly> screw it man
<chillywilly> I am gonna go live in the woods
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> thats what I'm thinkin
<chillywilly> drop out of society and live in a hollowed out log by the ocean
<Mr_You> heh
<jbailey> Mmmmm.. grub
<neilt> thats what you have todo when you dont understand how it all works
<neilt> drop out, and give up
<chillywilly> neilt: you would say something like that wouldn't you
<Mr_You> neilt: traditionally the human way I guess
<chillywilly> I was merely expressing the feeling that we all get at one time or another
<chillywilly> just because I say man I should just go live in a log, doesn't mena I can really go and do it
<jbailey> chillywilly: It would have to be a big log...
<Mr_You> haha roommate and I are laughing at furniture sales droid experience he had this afternoon
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> Johnny Bravo is funny
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> "Just for your info, yesterday evening another person and I did a Linux
<chillywilly> presentation at the Windows Users Group meeting, and there was a lot of
<chillywilly> interest and questions.
<chillywilly> "
<neilt> chillywilly: sorry, but i dont know how that works
<chillywilly> ?
<neilt> you have to excuse my ignorance
<neilt> feeling that we all get at one time or another
<chillywilly> you never been depressed ever?
<neilt> not really
<neilt> life's too short
<chillywilly> I don't believe that
<Mr_You> me either
<chillywilly> heh, I know that
<jbailey> I don't think life's too short, but I plan to live a really long time., =)
<chillywilly> my father died about 5 years ago....I know all to well how shirt life is
<chillywilly> er, short
<jbailey> I understand.
<neilt> not really meant not depressed and wanted to drop out
<jbailey> gotta run, ttul!
<chillywilly> cya
<neilt> i have been depressed, but that did not make me want to drop out
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<chillywilly> well I am just talking about how sometimes you feel defeated, but you shouldn't give up...I only say that jokingly
<neilt> and usually that went with a hangover
<Mr_You> bleah
<chillywilly> someone op me
<chillywilly> plz
<chillywilly> the topic needs to be changed
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> neilt:can you change the topic to - <jbailey> James T on the bridge of the GNU Enterprise.  To boldly write Free Software, that noone has written before.
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> the cable had this message that there was a sun outage
<neilt> how do i do that
<chillywilly>  /masg chanserv set #gnuenterprise topic <jbailey> James T on the bridge of the GNU Enterprise.  To boldly write Free Software, that noone has written before.
<chillywilly> er, /msg
<neilt>    -*ChanServ*- Access denied.
<chillywilly> bah
<Mr_You> jamming with those guys the other night made a career as a working musician more plausable
<chillywilly> then use /topic
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by neilt!neilt@dialup-209.244.65.113.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net: <jbailey> James T on the bridge of the GNU Enterprise.  To boldly write Free Software, that noone has written before.
<chillywilly> kewl
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 02:28:47)
<Mr_You> hehe sweet
<dtm> hi all
<chillywilly> oops
<chillywilly> I forgot that
<dtm> hahah  the GNU Enterpise
<chillywilly> ;)
<Mr_You> no one is two words?
<chillywilly> true
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by neilt!neilt@dialup-209.244.65.113.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net:  <jbailey> James T on the bridge of the GNU Enterprise.  To boldly write Free Software, that no one has written before.
<chillywilly> tnx neilt
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<richardh> Coo... more people on this channel than I expected.  I take it that GNUe is still an active project then?
<ajmitch> hehe, yes
<richardh> Splendid.  May the day of JDEdwards demise be hastened. :)
<reinhard> richardh: you bet
<chillywilly> GNUe is alive and well
<chillywilly> :)
<richardh> I'm new to GNUe (in case you hadn't guessed).  I've been working with JDEdwards and Oracle Forms apps for several years.  The idea of a Free alternative is rather exciting.
<dneighbo> um richardh the oracle boys here tell me forms v0.0.9 is pretty much feature complete
<dneighbo> vs Oracle SQL*Forms last supported version
<richardh> That's good to know.  I've just checked out CVS, I'm going to spend the weekend looking through it to see if it continues to excite me. (No life :)
<jcater> richardh: it will :)
<dneighbo> btw: cvs is functional currently (i think)
<dneighbo> but will require python2.x 
<richardh> I have that.  Thats one of the other things on my bottemless 'todo' list.. learn Python.
<dneighbo> richardh for the record jcater is an oracle boy ;)
<dneighbo> richardh if you know ANY other programming language
<dneighbo> i think by default you know python
<jcater> richardh: ex-SQL*Forms 3.0 (character based interface) boy to be exact
<richardh> I'm more a DBA than a developer, but I've ben programming as a semi-hobby for about 15 years.
<richardh> I LIKE character based forms.
Action: dneighbo notes the MOST important part of that statement is 'ex-'
<jcater> richardh: so do we
<jcater> I could not do the Forms 4.x upgrade
<jcater> (i.e., upgrade to GUI)
<richardh> I have an instinctive distrust of any window-app, even if it is overlaying a reasonable OS.
<dneighbo> er dont you mean upgrade to java ;)
<jcater> dneighbo: later on
<richardh> Unfortunately I'm now stuck in the miasma that is JDEDwards OneWorld.
<dneighbo> ah
<jcater> 4.x series predates java
<Mr_You> its interesting how many orgs still use mainframe apps and Wintel desktops, barely using the desktops at all
<dneighbo> Mr_You would you trust 2billion dollars in fincials on a farm of NT boxes?
<richardh> My first experience of a GUI-based app was a Banner implementation.. anyone heard of it?
<richardh> I wouldn't trust anything to a farm of NT boxes. I like my AIX servers and my Linux servers (and desktops)
<Mr_You> dneighbo: true
<dneighbo> richardh thats why Mr_You just said
<dneighbo> desktops, barely using the desktops at all
<Mr_You> dneighbo: but I think most thought that those would still be in use..
<dneighbo> basically he said companies dont trust Windows for barely anything at all ;0
<Mr_You> DON'T THINK
<reinhard> AIX?
<chillywilly> now now
<richardh> The problem with Windows is it has the great weight of inertia behind it.
Action: reinhard sees another portability challenge appearing at the horizont
<Mr_You> that made no sense
<chillywilly> reinhard: hehe
<Mr_You> there was also the press report that suddenly thousands of IIS have dropped off
<richardh> Heh  An AIX port would be... interresting.  I don't have a free box any more though. Audit came and took my last remaining spare server from me and gave it to another department.
<chillywilly> well gartner really helped with that, imho
<richardh> I generally take any Gartner pronouncement with several pounds of salt, but as you say chillywilly, I think they definitely spooked the management herd.
<Mr_You> richardh: AIX in regards to GNUe?  shouldn't GNUe run on "most" python/gtk platforms?
<reinhard> richardh: :(
<richardh> I imagine it should do, Mr_You.  I'm not sure if Python and/or GTK are AIX-friendly though.  I haven't really investigated either, and in any case it currently isn't possible for me to try it out.
<reinhard> would really have interested me
<richardh> If I remain excited, and I manage to recover my spare server, I may be back to lay down the gauntlet, reinhard. :)
<reinhard> :)
<Mr_You> heh
<chillywilly> does GEAS work on AIX?
<chillywilly> hmmm
Action: richardh shrugs eloquently
<chillywilly> probably ORBit won't work
<reinhard> chillywilly: hte problem would be to compile ORBit on AIX
<Mr_You> GNUe relies more on the portability of its developer tools more so I guess
<Mr_You> which is the way the world works ;-)
<chillywilly>  reinhard: yea, I would thinkn that would be the main deal
<reinhard> chillywilly: IIRC AIX has some alloca weirdness and ORBit makes heavy use of alloca
<chillywilly> ah
<Mr_You> dual AMD AthlonXP machines should be pretty reasonably priced
<richardh> Anyway, I might like to become involved in making a Free alternative to the current apps out there.  I'm not sure which of my meagre skills (if any) would be most useful, though.  What areas are currently crying out for assistance?
<jcater> richardh: pick one
<reinhard> richardh: you can surely help
<jcater> :)p
<chillywilly> lots
<reinhard> richardh: only going through the installation of all the stuff
<reinhard> and playing with it and reporting bugs
<Mr_You> how is designer and GNUe Forms widgets coming?
<richardh> I'm not really a programmer, except when I'm put against a wall and threatened with violence... 
<chillywilly> hehe
<richardh> But documentation, project management, bug huunting, pizza-making, I do very well.
<chillywilly> kewl
<reinhard> richardh: yeah
<reinhard> that is what we need
<chillywilly> those are nice skills
<chillywilly> mmmm, pizza
<Mr_You> umm.. is it me or has the mailing list died?
<jcater> mmm
<jcater> richardh: where are you located?
<reinhard> and precious skills in free software development btw
<richardh> I was once told by a programmer friend that I would never make a proper programmer, because I write comments everywhere.  I'm almost certain he was joking.
<richardh> I'm in Leicester, UK.
<jcater> hmm
<reinhard> as most free software developers are just chaotic hackers :)
<jcater> pizza delivery will be hard from there to Tennessee, USA
<jcater> but I can get you my FedEx account # :)
<chillywilly> maybe he can make it and then freeze it
<chillywilly> wouldn;t be as good though
<chillywilly> time to take a trip
<chillywilly> :P
<neilt> i've been to Leicester, ithink we should send it to him
<richardh> Make it, freeze it, Fed-Ex it. Need to put it in a coolbox with dry ice.
<richardh> Leicester isn't THAT bad, neilt :) And anyway, I live right on the edge, in a very nice bit.
<neilt> i dont know about good or bad, but i dont remember any good pizza
<richardh> Ah, but that's cos >>I<< didn't make it. :)
<neilt> but i'm in Chicago, home of the Chicago pizza
<richardh> 'scuse me... small doggy wants to play.  Back in a minute or two.
<richardh> There.  One satisfied small doggy.
<chillywilly> heheh
<richardh> Anyway, I'm going to attempt to install Forms over the weekend and poke around with it.
<richardh> Which packages will I need to build and install (presuming I have satisfied the non-GNUe dependencies)
<chillywilly> gnue-common
<chillywilly> then gnuef
<chillywilly> that's it
Action: richardh cheers
<richardh> Mind you, I can break apps just by walking into the room.
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> masta can too
<chillywilly> he can breask them by looking at them
<chillywilly> he's cursed
<richardh> I can relate to that.
<chillywilly> one time forms took down his X server
<richardh> I can do that too. :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<richardh> I can also cause Oracle to generate errors that cause our Oracle consultants to scratch their heads and go 'hmmm... that simply isn't possible'
<dneighbo> jcater looks like you will need a disable-richardh switch too :)
<richardh> :)
<richardh> No, just a filter on his email client.
<dneighbo> fwiw: its common for jamest and jcater to ask me
<dneighbo> are you running that with dneighbo debugging on or off
<dneighbo> as i can make heads scratch too :)
<richardh> Heh.  I suppose that that in itself is a very handy ability in software projects.
<dneighbo> yip, they like it (i think)
<richardh> Like in the Linux (and Gnome) community, the term 'Telsa-proofed' is beginning to become commonplace.
<chillywilly> heheh
<richardh> (Telsa being Alan Cox's wife and also posesssed of the gift of inadvertant destruction)
<chillywilly> telsa is cool
<chillywilly> she helps me all the time with weird Gnome stuff
<richardh> I've never met her.  I've gotten sriously drunk with Alan though, although that was years n years ago.
<chillywilly> gotta go
<chillywilly> bbl
<richardh> weird Gnome stuff == most of Gnome? ;)
<chillywilly> ya
<richardh> Ok, I'll be off to bed soon.  Pleased to meet you, chillywilly.
<chillywilly> nice meeting you too =)
Action: chillywilly is away: I'm busy
<richardh> According to the maintainer of MySQLdb, I really want to download the latest copy (0.9.1) rather than the version mentioned in gnuef (0.3.2).  Ayone got any comments on this, or am I about to embark on a journey of discovery?
<jcater> you should be fine
<richardh> Ok... here goes then.
<jcater> but if not, don't remember my name :)
<richardh> Too late.  You've been logged.
Action: richardh cackles
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<dneighbo> um if you want to be safe
<dneighbo> dont download mysql get postgres instead :)
<jcater> jamest: we are in the presence of another SQL-Form-er :)
<dneighbo> hahaha
<dneighbo> former sql former
Action: richardh isn't going to get into a pg/mysql argument.
<richardh> I already have MySQL and use it for half a dozen other things.
<jcater> richardh: we do not get into such petty arguments around here
<jcater> richardh: if you want to use a wanna-be database, go right ahead 
<jcater> :)
Action: richardh bites his tongue.
<jamest> guys
<jamest> don't abuse a possible victim.....yet
Action: richardh wonders if he could get it to interface with AS400
<jamest> get what to interface?
<richardh> gnuef
<dneighbo> richardh actually we are postgres biased
<dneighbo> but we like mysql users
<dneighbo> ex:
<dneighbo> richardh says "xyz doesnt work"
<dneighbo> jcater says "what backend"
<dneighbo> richardh "mysql"
<dneighbo> jcater "hmmm, sucks to be you"
<dneighbo> ;)
<jcater> in all seriousness, we are about letting you choose whatever backend you want
<jcater> we support quite a few more than just pg/mysql :)
<dneighbo> all kidding aside we like different backends as it tests our code :)
<richardh> Well, actually, I'm Oracle-biased, however I dont' have a powerful enough box here at home to install Oracle.
<dneighbo> we work with oracle
<dneighbo> or so jason leads us to believe so
<jcater> we do
<jcater> why would you doubt me? :)p
<jcater> just don't try to commit any changes
<richardh> I like Oracle. I haven't yet been seduced by Free alternatives, but there maybe hope for me yet.
<jamest> :)
<jamest> well if you'd like to test gnuef w/ mysql that would rock
<jamest> as I hate mysql with a passion
Action: richardh loves everything and everybody.
<jamest> but IIRC jcater converted the mysql drivers
<jamest> so they should work in cvs now
<dneighbo> the poll
<dneighbo> how do you pronounce SQL
<dneighbo> S-Q-L or SEQUEL
<dneighbo> and how do you pronounce mySQL 
<dneighbo> myS-Q-L or mySEQUEL
<richardh> The latter for the former, and vice versa.
<dneighbo> inquirying minds want to know
<jcater> me too
<dneighbo> technically i think both are S-Q-L
<dneighbo> but MyS-Q-L sounds funny to me :)
<richardh> I've heard it pronounced 'squirrel' too, but that was a weirdo.
<dneighbo> i would be worried about someone who uses his squirrel to do things ;)
<richardh> SQL is pronounced sequel.  There's some sort of pfficial pronouncement on the pronouncement.
Action: richardh would be more worried about the squirrel, personally.
<dneighbo> roflmao
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<richardh2> Oops.
<Mr_You> I pronouce SQL S-Q-L out of habit, tho I know its sequel
Action: Mr_You blames it on PostgreSQL
<dneighbo> hmmm
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<dneighbo> i thought you pronounced SQL ($125 an hour)
<richardh2> Anyway, it's time for me to get my beauty sleep.  It doesn't do any good but I try anyway.
Action: richardh2 sniggers
<Mr_You> I wish
<Mr_You> s/wish/hope/
<Mr_You> night richard
<dneighbo> nite
<richardh2> I'll be back (I hope), when I can't get gnuef to run.
Action: richardh2 grins
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<jamest> "when I can't get gnuef to run".....what's he trying to say?
<jamest> :)
<Mr_You> heh
<jamest> so whats the scoop
<jamest> is he wanting to use forms
<jcater> yes
<jcater> he's an ex-char based SQLForms guy
<jcater> and he has masta's ability to crash things
<jcater> by looking at them
<Mr_You> how are Forms and widgets for forms coming along? and Designer?
<jamest> i have no responce to emails from the person working on it
<jamest> he was ill last we spoke
<dneighbo> amazing how working on this project can make one ill
<dneighbo> btw: is arno still alive?
<jamest> no idea
<jamest> no responce to my mails
<jamest> i must suck with regard to my personal skills
<jamest> running people off like this
<jamest> either that or forms code is bad for your health :)
<dneighbo>  /msg jcater you did tell him that he needed to discover deodorant didnt you?
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<Mr_You> heh
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<reinhard> nite all
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<Mr_You> dstotten: the floppy based install doesn't require much bandwidth
<Mr_You> oops
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<bbitch> greetings to you all
<bbitch> i am very interested in your project
<bbitch> i was going to create my own similar type of thing to handle my business, although in PHP
Nick change: cw-madhacker -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> what kinda business?
<bbitch> VAR services type of job
<chillywilly> wassat?
<bbitch> value added reseller
<chillywilly> er, ok
<bbitch> reselling things with services, f.x systems with network installation and monitoring
<chillywilly> kewl
<bbitch> thats just a part tho
<chillywilly> what you using?
<bbitch> using for what?
<chillywilly> hylafax?
<bbitch> oh, shitty mysql/php
<bbitch> VERY basic atm
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<bbitch> i was going to expand it
<bbitch> but i think gnue could be good
<chillywilly> GNUe - It's GNU For Business
<chillywilly> ;)
<bbitch> ;)
<bbitch> mm
<bbitch> i would like to help out somehow
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> why does everyone code to mysql?
<chillywilly> I hate mysql
<chillywilly> mysql is a toy
<bbitch> it simple to setup, and has a nifty slave feature
<bbitch> i used it cuz it was installed already 
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> no big deal
<chillywilly> we support both....forms client in 2-tier mode supports even more
<chillywilly> we beaing GEAS the app server
<bbitch> the forms are xml right?
<chillywilly> yes
<bbitch> thats a good idea
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<bbitch> independant of everything
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> althought our main client is written in python
<bbitch> yes, but you could have a client in anything..
<chillywilly> yes you could
<bbitch> mmm so can you explain to me exactly how the components fit together?
<chillywilly> it is easier to write a different frontend for the existing one
<chillywilly> ummm
<bbitch> geas accesses the db server right?
<bbitch> then the clients access geas?
<chillywilly> also business obejcts and methods
<chillywilly> lemme go into my sqpeal
<chillywilly> fir you got the forms client which is in python an understamds an xml format
<chillywilly> for layout
<chillywilly> and setting up of triggers
<chillywilly> (events)
<chillywilly> damn
<chillywilly> I didn't mean to answer the phone that time :P
<chillywilly> stupid solicitors
<bbitch> lol
<bbitch> mm i need one
<bbitch> to take compaq to court
<chillywilly> why?
<bbitch> they owe me money
<bbitch> over a pricing dispute
<chillywilly> oooh
<chillywilly> :O
<chillywilly> ok
<bbitch> where are you at?
<chillywilly> then we have a our reposts thingy which I don;t know too much about
<chillywilly> reports server
<chillywilly> Wisconsin
<chillywilly> ;)
<bbitch> i think it pretty much seems to fit together how i thought..
<bbitch> cool
<chillywilly> e also have a GUI desgner for the forms
<chillywilly> s/e/we
<chillywilly> designer
<chillywilly> forms has lots of db drivers
<chillywilly> and a drvers for geas
<chillywilly> (our app server)
<chillywilly> it woks in 2-tier and n-tier mode
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<bbith> bah
<chillywilly> woosp
<chillywilly> I didn't see you exit there
<dneighbo> bbith
<dneighbo> be back in two hours?
<bbith> i didnt something dropped the conn.
<chillywilly> k
<bbith> dneighbo mmm i mayyyy be
<bbith> should be hopefully
<chillywilly> wait a sec
<chillywilly> there's bbith and bbitch
<chillywilly> this is just confusing me
<chillywilly> :P
<bbith> yers bbitch is the ghost :P
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<dneighbo> hey its mdean
<chillywilly> ooooh
<chillywilly> k
<dneighbo> bbith are you bbitch too?
<chillywilly> haha
<dneighbo> if so
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<dneighbo> nevermind
<chillywilly> dneighbo: looks like thats the case dude
<dneighbo> anyhow you want dcl + gnue
<dneighbo> for your VAR business
<bbith> mmm what is dcl
<dneighbo> it will let you manage your services as billable time
<chillywilly> mdean's baby
<dneighbo> http://dcl.sourceforge.net
<dneighbo> and then there will be a gnue side that does contact management/sales
<bbith> mm
<bbith> mmm i want to integrate it into one ;P
<dneighbo> too late
<dneighbo> we already are
<bbith> cool
<dneighbo> you will have gnue to do somethings
<dneighbo> and php front end to do others
<chillywilly> how are you fitting it together?
<dneighbo> but its all same ass end
<dneighbo> chillywilly um its just talking to a database so the gnue parts and the dcl parts simply use the same tables
<dneighbo> or subsets of same tables
<chillywilly> why not talk to geas?
<dneighbo> i would like to offer all pieces a gnue pieces
<bbith> so geas is workable condition yeah?
<dneighbo> and im sure mdean would like all pieces to be dcl
<chillywilly> for the most part it is lacking a few things
<dneighbo> but for now it makes sense i think to piece a solution together
<chillywilly> it is usable
<dneighbo> geas its not usable for me
<dneighbo> too much overhead (too slow) for no real gain
<dneighbo> as methods become more robust
<dneighbo> and usable within forms client it will be worth the overhead
<chillywilly> jamest is getting the driver working
<dneighbo> yip
<chillywilly> I thought anyway
<dneighbo> but it dont work now
<dneighbo> and i need ot write apps now
<dneighbo> sick of waiting
<dneighbo> been holding off for 4 or 5 months doing so
<bbith> dcl is all php?
<bbith> 3 or 4?
<dneighbo> yes
<chillywilly> dneighbo: whatever
<dneighbo> chillywilly dont whatever me :)
<bbith> i guess i have like 12 mo to get my system upgraded
<dneighbo> if you must puff, at least say 'well why didnt you write a driver instead of waiting'
<chillywilly> dneighbo: whatever man
<chillywilly> dneighbo: cause I haven't contributed anything lately either
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> :)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: there's no puffing but it sure ain't cool to slam us....and you talk about not creating a rift
<dneighbo> btw: geas is usable, just not in the way i need it to be :)
<dneighbo> i wasnt slamming it
<bbith> mmmmmm
<chillywilly> geas needs locking at the object level to handle multiple users, better methods, etc.
<bbith> i wonder if i should just create my own php based system
<bbith> not sure if it would scale too well
<dneighbo> note i stated NO FORMS DRIVER as big part of it and NO METHODS in FORMS
<bbith> i guess several boxes in a dns pool..
<dneighbo> bbith you are welcome too
<bbith> reading from several slave sql servers
<dneighbo> personally seems like a waste to duplicate efforts
<bbith> i think it would not support extreme users
<dneighbo> and personally i think you find PHP was not designed to write business applications
<bbith> dneighbo yes but i have to learn how to use gnue:P
<dneighbo> um if you know xml
<dneighbo> or html for that matter
<dneighbo> gnue is not a real stretche
<bbith> mm i havent actually taken a look yet
<dneighbo> its designed so that business analysts can write apps for it
<bbith> but i shall tomorrow
<bbith> on the new db box
<dneighbo> you will find
<dneighbo> 'installing' gnue
<dneighbo> harder than writing applications for it
<bbith> hm, sounds promising
<bbith> btw, python client should run on win32 also right
<bbith> with python/tinker installed of course..
<dneighbo> i think i pumped out 5 maintenance forms
<chillywilly> bbith: it works wit wxwindows
<chillywilly> with
<dneighbo> that were data aware in about 10 minutes the other night for dcl/gnue
<dneighbo> yes it works on windows (but not tinker) wxWindows
<bbith> wxwindows? no idea what that is ;P
<dneighbo> http://www.wxwindows.org
<dneighbo> its like gtk or qt only crossplatform
Action: bbith checks it out
<dneighbo> like fox or xforms
<bbith> iirc gtk is crossplatform..
<dneighbo> bbith i do not consider having ot install unix environment on the platform as being cross platform
<dneighbo> i.e. if youhave to install cygnus or some other 'environment' it aint xplatform
<bbith> gtk requires cygwin or something?
<bbith> that sucks ass
<dneighbo> i love how developers say its cross platform but make you install unix on your platform
<dneighbo> but they would cry and piss if i said office97 was xplatfrom
<dneighbo> which it is under thier definition because if i install wine i can make it run
<dneighbo> to me that is NOT crossplatform 
<dneighbo> </end rant>
<bbith> lol
<bbith> do i need wxpython or will mah regular python work
<bbith> mmm
<dneighbo> you need wxPython (its wxWindows for python)
<dneighbo> and python
<chillywilly> fox is an awesome toolkit
<chillywilly> dos thing a bit differently then anything I've ever seen
<dneighbo> vdk is another tool kit like that
<chillywilly> does 2-way messaging not just callbacks
<chillywilly> automagic GUI updating is the result, iirc
<bbith> so the client users wxwindows on X also?
<chillywilly> you don't need gtk for forms on windows do you?!?
<dneighbo> huh/
<dneighbo> for windows
<dneighbo> if you grab
<dneighbo> wxPython
<dneighbo> Python
<dneighbo> and whatever db binding kit
<dneighbo> pygresql or what not
<dneighbo> you are set
<chillywilly> and other python addons ;)
<dneighbo> it is NATIVE windows
<chillywilly> db, xml, datetime, etc.
<dneighbo> no special environment needed
<dneighbo> that is all in python2.x
<dneighbo> on windows
<bbith> mmm python is good
<chillywilly> python is nice
<chillywilly> better than friggin java
<bbith> much better than java sunny side up!
<dneighbo> brb adding switch box
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<bbith> holy shit
<bbith> python takes 80~ meg
<bbith> and i have no space left
<bbith> on my box
<chillywilly> bbith: anyway geas is our appserver and you define classes using gcd format (similar to odl) and you can implement methods in python and C, it abstracts the db and has a cache, uses CORBA, and a client interface
<chillywilly> has a CORBA interface, that is
<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly> that sux
<chillywilly> currently there's no security and ppl can overwrite each others changes....and of course the forms driver is out of date
<chillywilly> although treshna inc. is using it for a couple clients
<chillywilly> they used to emply the main GEAS hacker
<chillywilly> employ
<chillywilly> now we are slowly reworking things in it ;)
<bbith> no security? :P
<chillywilly> wel
<chillywilly> thing is
<chillywilly> the main guy was a corba fna
<chillywilly> fan
<chillywilly> he wanted to wait unti ORBit has the corba security system implemented
<chillywilly> iirc
<chillywilly> I think we need an RBAC type security
<chillywilly> Role Based Access Control
<bbith> mmm as in you define roles
<bbith> and users to fill roles?
<chillywilly> something like that
<chillywilly> I need to read a few papers to figure out exactly how it would work
<chillywilly> SE Linux uses it
<bbith> it is easy
<chillywilly> Security Enhanced
<chillywilly> well yea
<chillywilly> it's not difficult
<bbith> bah for nsa lunix :P
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> anyway, I am gonna go offline for a bit
<chillywilly> cya, nice meeting you
<chillywilly> http://csrc.nist.gov/rbac/
<chillywilly> that's a nice link
<chillywilly> anyway
<chillywilly> l8r
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<dneighbo> 3 new machines :)
<ajmitch> heh
<dneighbo> yeehaw
<dneighbo> granted they are p200's w/ 128ram
<dneighbo> but they have swappable harddrive bays
<dneighbo> so i got to pick them up to use for our LUG
<dneighbo> i have like 20 drives and 5 machines :)
<dneighbo> so i can put like a distro per machine to play with :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ToyMan> hi dneighbo
Action: ajmitch wants some hardware 
<dneighbo> hey stue
<dneighbo> er stu
<dneighbo> even
<dneighbo> no chilly?
<dneighbo> damn
<ToyMan> woah, just upgraded my potato box to woody
<ToyMan> 297 MB @ 56k
<ToyMan> it's been downloading over 20 hrs now...:)
<dneighbo> ToyMan sounds like a 'fun thing'
<mdean> dneighbo: mysql.xsl is done - working on mssql.xsl
<ToyMan> as long as it happens while i'm asleep...:)
<dneighbo> mdean you are an ANIMAL
<dneighbo> i hope to get that book tomorrow and go to town this weekend on reports
<mdean> goin' to town!
<ToyMan> dneighbo: disk is on its way...
<dneighbo> ToyMan cool
<ToyMan> headin for bed... se ya.
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<dneighbo> howdy
<jcater> howdy
<dneighbo> i hope to be back but only briefly
<dneighbo> jcater i think i had something to discuss with you, but i cant recall
<dneighbo> im getting too old i guess. :)
<dneighbo> bbl
<jcater> lol
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<mdean> jcater: hey there
<jcater> mdean: howdy
<mdean> did you get a chance to peruse my XML stuff I sent?
<jcater> yes I did
<jcater> translations, eh?
<jcater> you are one sick puppy :)
<mdean> hehe
<jcater> I can do the Oracle xslt for you
<mdean> it fits the bill ;-)
<jcater> but was going to wait until you did cosntraints, etc, in your current example
<mdean> ok - that won't be too much longer
<mdean> I left off the default constraints for the fields by mistake anyway, so I fixed that today
<mdean> I did mysql and am working on mssql
<mdean> once I get that done (along with Sybase) I'll finish off the indexes and constraints
<jcater> I can also do SAP-DB, Interbase, and Ingres if you'd like
Action: jcater has an extensive DB test machine at home :)
<mdean> hehe - I have pgsql, mysql, Oracle, Sybase, mssql, and DB/2 (needs upg tho)
<mdean> but I'm not DB/2 friendly yet
<jcater> I have those except DB/2 and mssql
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> if I could get IBM to give me a devel sample
<jcater> I'd do it too
<jcater> but so far, no good
<mdean> you can d/l it
<jcater> ah
<mdean> unless you're like me and stuck in 56k-- land
<jcater> well, I'll do it at work and burn to CD
<jcater> I have 56k at home
<jcater> (MSN at that!)
<jcater> what sucks is I have broadband at my apartment, but I am stuck at the house :(
<mdean> I installed 7.1, but it requires JDK1.1.8 and I have 1.3.x - so I need to snag 7.2
<mdean> doh!
<jcater> tell me about it
<jcater> I'm paying for the damn broadband, but haven't gotten it transfered yet
<mdean> I can't even get it yet
<mdean> but it should be available RSN(tm)
<jcater> bummer
<jcater> btw, my guys at work love dcl. (Except now they can't use the excuse that they're waiting for me to get them info on a project :)
<mdean> cool
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<mdean> woo-hoo!  mssql done - so Sybase should be real easy ;-)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> what? cut-n-paste?
<mdean> practically! has a couple little tweaks
<mdean> whew!  that was tough
<jcater> didn't strain yourself, did you?
<mdean> I thought I wasn't going to pull through there..
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<dnWork> jcater: i can send you db/2 disks :)
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<jcater> cool
<derek> jcater after looking at that xslt stuff
<derek> reports shouldnt be bad eh :)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> of course not
Action: derek is excited
<derek> i think dcl is fitting in nicely around here
<jcater> derek: stop looking at those pics I sent you 
<derek> i still think that it would be good for gnue to use DCL
<jcater> I agree
<derek> a little bit structured perhaps for free software, but would be nice
Action: jcater hates his 56K dialup
<derek> deep breaths, blow out
<derek> think about the beach
<derek> love the 56k modem
<jcater> do you have any idea how long it takes to download porn w/56K? my son will be old enough to enjoy them before they download
<derek> roflmao
<jcater> I'm downloading a simple 7.7Mb source file (2.6KB/s (00:45:22 remaining)
<jcater> argh! I want my broadband!
<derek> papa johns is here
<derek> brb
<mdean> ok - I *think* I have these 4 guys done
<mdean> I just sent you guys a copy of the stuff I have
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