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<dtm_> greetings, one and all
Nick change: dtm_ -> dtm
<perlh> hi derek
<perlh> hi dtm
<dtm> perlh: hi
<dtm> perlh: i haven't seen you before.  what are you up to?
<perlh> well dtm i am into
<perlh> geas
<perlh> dude 
<perlh> for crm and hr packages dude
<perlh> dtm dude r u thee?
<dtm> good deal
<dtm> i haven't used gnue yet but i love all the developers.  i've mainly used DCL and phpgroupware so far.
<dtm> which are related
<perlh> dude can u tell me what is  DCL for
<dtm> http://dcl.sf.net
<dtm> DCL is a job ticketing and project management web app
<dtm> it can optionally work inside phpgw
<dtm> it's being merged somewhat with gnue
<dtm> by mdean and derek
<perlh> oh ok cool
<perlh> never heard of it before
<perlh> how cool is it dude
<perlh> i mena dcl 
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<neilt> morning all
<reinhard> hello neilt
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<perlh> hi neilt
<perlh> hi ren
<perlh> hi reinhard
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<jamest> if test -f y.tab.h; then \
<jamest> if cmp -s y.tab.h parse.h; then rm -f y.tab.h; else mv y.tab.h parse.h; fi; \
<jamest> else :; fi
<jamest> gcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I../.. -I/opt/gnome/lib/glib/include -I/opt/gnome/include -DG_LOG_DOMAIN=GEAS-cd    -g -O2 -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -c parse.c
<jamest> parse.y:1008: warning: missing braces around initializer
<jamest> parse.y:1008: warning: (near initialization for `yytoks[0]')
<jamest> /usr/ccs/bin/yaccpar:5: warning: ignoring pragma: "@(#)yaccpar  6.16    99/01/20 SMI
<jamest> parse.y: In function `yyparse':
<jamest> parse.y:180: parse error before `}'
<jamest> parse.y:277: parse error before `}'
<jcater> hmm.. well, hello to you too, jamest
<jcater> :)
[08:59] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> just checking my mail
<jamest> seems you may have saved me some headaches today 
<jamest> as I was migrating to python 2.1 at work
<jcater> how does that save you a headache? sounds like a big one to me :)
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> jamest: is it possible you use yacc here?
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<chillywilly> re
Action: chillywilly eyeballs perlh 8)
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<jamest> reinhard: that's possible
<jamest> I'm on a fairly clean solaris 8 install
<reinhard> looks like i use something that yacc doesn't understand and bison does
<reinhard> can you plz mail me your geas/src/classdef/parse.c file to reinhard@bytewise.at ?
<reinhard> brb
<jamest> sent
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<chillywilly> Gnumeric 0.71 aka 'Slicker than a greased pig in a Jello fight' is now available.
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> now that's a code name
<jcater> ROFL
<chillywilly> we need cool code names like that
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<jcater> Ximian Gnome 1.6... Buggier than your grandma's attic
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> Our's should be "GNU Enterprise... 'When you wish upon a star'"
<jamest> GNUe - Would somebody get out and push?
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> I like that
<jcater> GNUe... not just for script-kiddies
<chillywilly> GNUe - forget about going anywhere today
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<Thief> how can i read the value of the eip register
<Thief> <Thief> with gcc inline assembler?
<Thief> please help
<Thief> the compiler says bad register .(
<chillywilly> go to #c
Action: jamest bashes head into desk
<jamest> >>> import PgSQL
<jamest> Traceback (most recent call last):
<jamest>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
<jamest>   File "/usr/local/encap/python-2.1.1/lib/python2.1/site-packages/PgSQL.py", line 283, in ?
<jamest>     from mx import DateTime
<jamest>   File "/usr/local/encap/python-2.1.1/lib/python2.1/site-packages/mx/DateTime/__init__.py", line 40, in ?
<jamest>   File "/usr/local/encap/python-2.1.1/lib/python2.1/site-packages/mx/DateTime/__init__.py", line 50, in modinit
<jamest>   File "/usr/local/encap/python-2.1.1/lib/python2.1/copy_reg.py", line 16, in pickle
<jamest>     raise TypeError("copy_reg is not intended for use with classes")
<jamest> TypeError: copy_reg is not intended for use with classes
<jcater> G"
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<jcater> "GNUe... Where'd you like to bang your head today?"
<chillywilly> heh
<jamest> please tell me that 2.1 isn't going to break all the drivers that use mxdatetime
<jcater> um
<jcater> why would it?
<jamest> that error looks like mxdatetime is generating it
<jcater> I've been using 2.1 w/pygresql
<jcater> I think
<reinhard> parse.y:1008: warning: missing braces around initializer
<reinhard> parse.y:1008: warning: (near initialization for `yytoks[0]')
<reinhard> this is most cool
<reinhard> just because parse.y has only 856 lines :)
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> you can claim the error lies outside the file ;)
<reinhard> jamest: fixed the errors
<reinhard> not sure about the warnings though
<reinhard> but that could be a -Wall thingy
<jcater> jamest: I am using 2.1 w/pygresql
Action: jamest bashes keyboard on desk
<jamest> it works as root
<jamest> permisions problem somewhere
<jcater> must be
<jcater> I use it w/my jason login
<jamest> it was
<jamest> mxdatetime didn't install w/ proper permissions
<jamest> reinhard: you check the fix in ?
<reinhard> yep
<reinhard> it was 2 missing semicolons
<reinhard> and bison adds an extra ";" at the end of each statement
<reinhard> s/statement/rule
<derek> jamest im playing chillywilly this week and using alpha releases of python and bleeding versions of wxPython and friends all compiled from source
<derek> i figured you guys were squishing the explainable bugs too quickly so i needed an 'advantage'
<jamest> derek: figures
<derek> what better way than source compiled alpha dependencies :)
Action: chillywilly only usually uses what is packaged with debian
<chillywilly> http://www.linuxworld.com/ic_706716_6995_1-3133.html
<jamest> chillywilly: it's a case of the student overtaking the master
<derek> chillywilly: im having mail server issues
<derek> can you email me that link to dneighbo@mail.maricopa.gov
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> semt
<chillywilly> sent
<chillywilly> even
<jamest> make[3]: Entering directory `/home/jamest/cvs/gnue/geas/src/classdef'
<jamest> lex   scan.l && mv lex.yy.c scan.c
<jamest> "scan.l":line 26: Error: missing translation value
<neilt> derek: you have access to cvs
<reinhard> jamest: can you try if it works when you remove line 26 of scan.l?
<reinhard> it is an option for flex to make the scanner faster
Nick change: neilt -> neil-away
<jamest> trying
<jamest> this is the line...
<jamest> %option never-interactive      
<jamest> ?
<jamest> make[3]: Entering directory `/home/jamest/cvs/gnue/geas/src/classdef'
<jamest> lex   scan.l && mv lex.yy.c scan.c
<jamest> "scan.l":line 26: Error: missing translation value
<jamest> make[3]: *** [scan.c] Error 1
<reinhard> still that error, after removing the line?
<jamest> yip
<reinhard> yes %option never-interactive is the line
<jamest> do I need to make clean ?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> crap
<reinhard> that means lex doesn't understand the other option
<reinhard> which makes the parser case insensitive
<jamest> i removed line 25 too
<jamest> Making all in classdef
<jamest> make[3]: Entering directory `/home/jamest/cvs/gnue/geas/src/classdef'
<jamest> lex   scan.l && mv lex.yy.c scan.c
<jamest> "scan.l":line 108: Error: illegal extra "}"
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> these are empty actions
<reinhard> just a { } pair
<reinhard> seems like lex behaves WAY different than flex
<reinhard> sorry i had no lex to test
<jamest> no problem
<jamest> do we need to make flex a requirement?
<reinhard> not sure
<reinhard> what would you think?
<reinhard> i think all of this should be fixable
<reinhard> if somebody goes through the pain to fix and test
<reinhard> i have not even a documentation of lex
<jamest> IIRC I've had to install flex for other programs on my older sun boxes
<jamest> and I have no problem doing it for this box
<chillywilly> probably should just require flex then
<jamest> this box is just fairly pure wrt being a sun shipped install
<reinhard> i would like more to have it work with lex
<jcater> chillywilly: why not just require linux :)
<chillywilly> flex is GNU software and is supposed to be portable to other UNices
<chillywilly> jcater: see my previous comment
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> which one?
Action: chillywilly would rather require GNU/Linux though
<chillywilly> jcater: GNU software is supposed to be portable to other unices and even thouhg flex is only quasi-gnu it should still be portable
<jcater> I remember going through great pains to get a gnu devel system set up on my fresh solaris box
<reinhard> pro make it work w/ lex: should be not more than an hour for somebody that knows lex, makes it easier to compile on non-gnu
<reinhard> con: you don't need flex to run, you don't need it to build from tarball, you only need to build from CVS actually
<reinhard> so it's not a big issue
<reinhard> except for jamest ;)
<reinhard> but if we make flex a requirement we must change configure to die when no flex is there
<jamest> well personally I hate it when code doesn't compile on my sun box
<jamest> but I know other packages make flex a requirement
<jamest> and I have 0 time to learn flex to make it work
<chillywilly> give reinhard access to a sun box then :P
<chillywilly> hehe
Action: chillywilly should learn flex
<jcater> I can do that, if reinhart wants to look at it
<jcater> never mind.. I only have a gnu development system, I don't have the sun issued tools any longer
<neil-away> sourceforge has a sun in its compile farm
<neil-away> maybe we should be using that to test
Action: chillywilly is about to remove his sourceforge account
<jbailey> I'm supposed to get around to installing Solaris x86 on my box, so I might be able to test stuff for you sometimes.
<chillywilly> why?
<jbailey> To write the solaris certification.  I've been slow about doing that.
<chillywilly> jbailey: do you really need to be certified to know solaris if you have been playing with various flavors of unix for years? (not taking into account its corporate correctness)
<jbailey> chillywilly: All for the resume...
<chillywilly> just part if the game right?
<chillywilly> s/if/of
<jbailey> yup
Action: chillywilly should get an MCSE just to get a job....not
<jbailey> Well, the trick is you want to build toward a job you want.
<chillywilly> bleugh
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<reinhard> back
<reinhard> sorry
<reinhard> in and out for the next 2 hours
<reinhard> jamest: if you install flex that's ok for me
<reinhard> in any case thanks for your input
Nick change: neil-away -> neilt
<neilt> reinhard: i am heading off to lunch, but expect to check in a revision to the article later today
<neilt> reinhard: it would be nice if you get a chance to look at it
<neilt> reinhard: i do have some suggestions email from the editors
<neilt> reinhard: that i will incorporate into the text before i check in
<neilt> later
Nick change: neilt -> neil-lunch
<reinhard> ok
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<ra3vat> hello all
<reinhard> hey ra3vat
<reinhard> long time no see :)
<ra3vat> hello reinhard
<ra3vat> just sent mail to you. still have some problem with geas
<ra3vat> which is my fault
<ra3vat> jamest: you here?
<ra3vat> jamest: to let you know
<ra3vat> jamest: madlocke is alive, hi is fine now. hi is in moscow and i hope to see him there is a few days :)
<ra3vat> bbl
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<derek> huh?
<derek> madlocke in moscow teaming with ra3vat :)
<derek> reinhard: the flex thing, the only advantage to flex only is that it forces people to use free software :)
<derek> but i dont think that in and of its self is the goal of gnue so we should support lex as well
<chillywilly> bah, personally I could give 2 shits about non-free platforms :P
<derek> http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/08/003230&mode=thread
Nick change: chillywilly -> cwcw-lunch
<derek> that link is another decent stallman political view
Action: derek has been suprised at the last two articles by rms on freedom concerns
Nick change: cwcw-lunch -> cw-lunch
Nick change: cw-lunch -> chillywilly
Nick change: neil-lunch -> neilt
<derek> neilt: yes i have cvs access (or so i think)
<chillywilly> RMS wants to legalize drugs?
<chillywilly> eh?
<neilt> derek: ok i have some comments from the editors of the article and will add to cvs in the next few hours
<derek> ok
<chillywilly> derek: RMS wants drugs legalized?
<chillywilly> derek: did I read this right?
<jbailey> chillywilly: IIRC, that's correct.
<chillywilly> ok, that is just mental
<chillywilly> I think RMS may be partaking in too many drugs himself
<jbailey> why is that mental?
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<chillywilly> you make them illegal for a reason, because they should not be used
<jbailey> It's never been obvious to me why the government keeps them illegal.  Pot is generally not significantly more harmful that most prescription drugs or alcohol.  The laws have never acted as a deterant, and why should the government care what an individual puts in their body?
<derek> chillywilly: yes that is what he is advocating
<derek> what is really odd
<derek> is he is VERY anti smoking
<jbailey> Mind you, I live in a country that will probably legalize marijuana in the next few years.
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<derek> we had LONG discussion on this btw
<derek> one view point i thought as odd (RMS is very logical, but sometimes you just expect him to be 'extreme' in all ways)
<jbailey> derek: IIRC, he doesn't care if you smoke in private.  He mostly dislikes cigarette smoke.
<chillywilly> jbailey: yea, well I know where you stand and most ppl now a days just do not want to accept absolute biblical truth...it
<derek> is that for say liquor, smoke, drugs etc
<derek> his issue is only that children not do them
<chillywilly> s all relative dude...do what you want as long as you're not hurting me
<chillywilly> blah blah
<derek> i.e. if you are an adult you do what you want
<derek> his take is you should be able to buy these things for 'personal private' use at 18
<derek> yet you should not be able to partake publicly until 21
<derek> this was for smoking and liquor (i assume he woudl feel drugs the same)
<derek> his primary point was that at 18 still too 'peer pressure' stage
<derek> and that at places like bars and clubs one might partake for the 'cool' factor
<chillywilly> well that;s a bit different then total legal drug use
<derek> it really was an interesting conversation
<derek> i think his point on the legalization of drugs
<chillywilly> young ppl really do nnot know what they are doing
<derek> as that it costs too much to have them illegal
<chillywilly> they are going theought sp many changes and they are highly emotional
<chillywilly> I see this is my little sister right now
<derek> chillywilly: being a serious drug addict for many years *gasp*
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<derek> i will tell you when i was 15 it was easier for me to get crank than it was to get alcohol
<chillywilly> they just wanna fit in so bad they don't realize until later that you are fine just the way you are
Action: chillywilly has done many drugs too
<jbailey> I was surrounded by them, and stuck to alcohol.  Wasn't interested.
<reinhard> bummer i missed ra3vat
<chillywilly> all those drugs were done as a teenager confused and just wanting to fit in too
<jbailey> But having them illegal didn't stop that from happening.  That's the point: Legal or not isn't the question, and we spend ridiculous amounts of time and money trying to enforce it.  That money would be better spent in education
<derek> yes
<derek> im torn
<derek> but i will say from experience illegal doesnt do much except glorify
<derek> i.e. if drugs were legal the thrill of being a drug dealer *quick easy money*
<derek> would be gone
<derek> also much more regulation could happen
<derek> if we were 'winning' the war on drugs i might feel different
<derek> but for now all i see is us spending billions and not making a dent
<jbailey> Also, with it being legal, and things like needles being available, you'd have fewer cases of AIDS and Hep C popping up all over the place.
<derek> filling prisons with 'drug offenders' and such
<chillywilly> you can't be a productive member of society being stoned all the time
<derek> not to mention if it were legal then you would get tax revenue ;)
<derek> chillywilly: but that is an ill excuse
<derek> so which is worse a stoned member of society that doesnt contribute
<derek> or 4 members of society
<derek> 1 - stoner that doesnt contributor
<derek> 2 - drug dealer that doesnt contribute
<derek> 3 - thug that not only doesnt contribute but does things in name of 'territory' etc
<derek> 4 - innocent victim (one that has neighborhood controlled by 1 2 and 3)
Action: chillywilly notes that jbailey is a thug member :P
<reinhard> chillywilly: jimmy hendrix did contribute very much, and jim morrison too :)
<derek> legalization might increase 1
<derek> but should seriously help eliminate 2, 3, 4
<chillywilly> reinhard: but do I really NEED music?
<reinhard> chillywilly: at least i do
<reinhard> :)
<derek> of course those destined to crime will find other avenues
<derek> as i said im torn
<derek> part of me doesnt want to give the license that says its 'ok'
<derek> but im not seeing making them illicit as being much of a success
<jbailey> derek: I actually suspect that making them legal will also decrease '1'.
<derek> jbailey: probably :)
<derek> if not immediately slowly over time they would lose the 'outlaw' appeal
<jbailey> chillywilly: I'm a *founding* thug member. =)
<reinhard> i still wonder why nobody had the idea to
<reinhard> make it illegal to work
<derek> anyone in the rave scene will tell you 
<jbailey> derek: The first year would be interesting. =)
<reinhard> ;)
<chillywilly> reinhard: there ya go ;)
<derek> the use of X and liquid G is just insane
<derek> by kids like 13 - 18
<derek> and that stuff just FRIES your brain
<derek> reinhard: :)
<derek> reinhard for president
<derek> running on the 'illegal to work' platform :)
<chillywilly> woohoo
<reinhard> oh man
<reinhard> now i get it
<reinhard> that's the reason why some politics want to make free software illegal
<chillywilly> why?
<reinhard> really rms is behind all that
<reinhard> to make it more interesting for ppl to do it
<reinhard> :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> it would helkp to contribute some civil disobedience
<chillywilly> running Linux is a crime....fsck the system!
<jbailey> chillywilly: until shrub decides that running a free system is a source of terrorism.
<jbailey> blech.
<chillywilly> oh gawd no
<chillywilly> you see that thing I pasted about NY DA office switching to "Linux"
<chillywilly> to get rid of their massive paper files
<chillywilly> they had storage rooms full
<chillywilly> derek: you this new ISP by the christian coalition?
<chillywilly> derek: blocks access to porn sites
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<reinhard> chillywilly: how did you find out?
<reinhard> ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
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<reinhard> wb ra3vat
<reinhard> i looked at your mail
<jamest> hey ra3vat 
<reinhard> are you near the problem computer now?
<jamest> madlocke hasn't returned any mail from me in a while (he must have gotten smart :)
<ra3vat> reinhard: yes
<jamest> can you find out status of his UI stuff?
<jamest> i'd sure like to take a look at it in it's current form
<jcater> heheh
<jcater> I love this channel
<jcater> we can go from discussing flex to the legalization of drugs
<reinhard> ra3vat: could you please check 2 things for me:
<chillywilly> cause we rock
<ra3vat> jamest: i'll seriously ask him in person, wait a few days :)
<reinhard> a) what version of autoconf you use
<reinhard> b) if this error appears for a fresh cvs checkout
<reinhard> --
<ra3vat> ok
<ra3vat> [ds@ics geas]$ autoconf --version
<ra3vat> Autoconf version 2.13
<reinhard> ok this is same as i use
<reinhard> and 90% of the world afaik :)
<ra3vat> i did fresh cvs checkout
<reinhard> oh
<ra3vat> for geas
<reinhard> fresh cvs checkout == into an empty directory
<reinhard> not overwriting anything that is there
<ra3vat> yeah
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> hmmmm...
<reinhard> (if anything else fails, mumble)
<reinhard> s/anything/everything/
<reinhard> ra3vat: i guess you get the same error messages when you now call config.status, right?
<ra3vat> reinhard: i'm close to do fresh OS checkout
<jbailey> reinhard: Debian systems use a wrapper to autodetect whether they should use 2.50 or 2.13.  But it always reports the version as 2.13
<reinhard> ra3vat: you have other problems, too?
<derek> ra3vat: mind me asking what madlocke will be doing in moscow?
<reinhard> jbailey: can i read between the line that you could explain what this 2.13 vs. 2.50 thing is all about?
<reinhard> s/line/lines
<ra3vat> derek: let me meet him first :)
<ra3vat> derek: do you know Hans Reiser lives here too
<reinhard> jbailey: btw ra3vat uses a rpm based system
<derek> who is hans reiser?
<derek> i thought madlocke was in germany?
<ra3vat> reinhard:  the same error messages for config.status
<jbailey> reinhard: I'm slowly learning the differences between 2.13 and 2.50.  The biggest 'vs' problem I can see is that they changed the syntax of AC_INIT, and AC_OUTPUT, so that configure scripts *have* to be updated.
<ra3vat> derek: who leads reiserfs project
<derek> ah
<derek> that woudl have been my first guess
<ra3vat> derek: madlocke is in germany hi will spend in russia about a month is what i know
<reinhard> ra3vat: please mail to me configure and config.status
<reinhard> i will do a diff to what was generated on my system
<ra3vat> ok
<reinhard> jbailey: ah ok
<jbailey> reinhard: It doesn't seem to take alot of tweaking after running autoupdate.  It also seems to be more friendly to not running gcc and gnu make when you're developing a package.  I've posted the documentation at http://www.gnu.org/manual/autoconf if you're interested.
<reinhard> jbailey: thanks
<jbailey> np
<reinhard> jbailey: you are a gnu webmaster?
<derek> no he is an old one :)
<jbailey> reinhard: Err.. sort of, not really. =)  I'm not on the webmasters mailing list, although I'm theoretically the lead for web-hurd, and I tend to be the one who updates the manuals.  Mostly when I get annoyed that they're out of date.
<reinhard> jbailey: cool
<reinhard> jbailey: just fyi automake manual is 1.4 current release is 1.5
<reinhard> jbailey: not that i want to pick nits :)
<jbailey> hrmmm.  I thought I updated that.  I may have forgotten the symlink.  try automake-1.5, instead of automake.
<jbailey> We keep old versions of the docs up for people too.
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> yep you're right
<reinhard> just the entry in the /manuals/manuals.html is old
<reinhard> btw if i may be curious what is the reason that you use texi2html and not makeinfo --html ?
<reinhard> seems weird to not use a gnu program for the gnu pages :)
<jbailey> fixed, thanks for the note.  I put in a proposal last night to webmasters to have that page generated via a Makefile, so hopefully we'll be able to fix it.
<jbailey> reinhard: because makeinfo --html sucked last time I tried it. =)
<reinhard> hehe
<jbailey> I should probably change it.  arenn originally set it up, and I never changed it. =)
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> was just out of curiosity
<jbailey> Well, it's incentive for them to make it suck less.
<reinhard> yeah
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<neilt> can someone explain the architecture of Forms to me for the article?
<jamest> neilt: you have a good grasp of chaos theory?
<neilt> sure i read glick
<neilt> james glick
<neilt> ok a few basics
<neilt> in between the x windows  api is
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<neilt> wxWindows -> wxPython
<jamest> forms is broken into 2 parts 
<neilt> do the forms client talk directly to wxPython
<neilt> or is there another layer
<jamest> what I call a virtual form (the GFObjects)
<jamest> and the UIfoo.py driver
<jamest> events are passed back and forth between the two 
<jamest> and the UI can't do anything w/o the virtual form telling it to
<jamest> so you press a key, the UI driver sends a keypress back to the virtual form
<jamest> the virtual form can alter things, fire triggers, etc, etc, or just ignore the request
<jamest> if it accepts the keypress and updates itself then it passes one or more events back to the UI telling it how to update itself to reflect what is in the virtual form
<neilt> XML Form definition -> GNUe Parser ------!!
<neilt>                                          \/
<neilt> X Windows -> wxWindows -> wxPython -> GFObjects -> UI  -> User
<neilt>                                          /\
<neilt> SQL Server -> GNUe Common -------------- !!
<neilt> does this work
<neilt> ?
<neilt> sorry x windows in the UI
<neilt> so ignore -> UI -> User
<neilt> ok maybe this is better
<neilt> -
<neilt> XML Form definition -> GNUe Parser <------!!
<neilt>                                           \/
<neilt> X Windows <-> wxWindows <-> wxPython <-> GFObjects
<neilt>                                           /\
<neilt> SQL Server <-> GNUe Common <------------- !!
<jamest> that's pretty close
<jamest> as from wxPthon you also have win32 systems
<jamest> and there's a bit of abstraction in there 
<jamest> GFObjects don't communicate w/ wxPthon directly
<jamest> they just send/respond to events
<jamest> but's that's getting technical
<jamest> and I'm not sure that's what you are after
<neilt> a general overbview to explain at a high level how forms is structured
<neilt> XML Form definition -> GNUe Parser ------>!!
<neilt>                                           \/
<neilt> SQL Server <-> GNUe Common <-----------> GFObjects
<neilt>                                           /\
<neilt> X Windows <-> wxWindows <-> wxPython <--- !!
<neilt>                          !
<neilt> Windows32 <------------->!
<jcater> I'm not sure about the distinction between wxPython and wxWindows at this high of a level
<neilt> are there any other big dependencies that are required for forms?
<neilt> I would like to include the 3rd party stuff we are using
<neilt> but only stuff that is required not the optional stuff
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<derek> techincally one coudl say wxWindows is 'optional'
<derek> as when curses works again it would be optional
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<derek> so xwindows, wxpython all would be optional
<jcater> XML Form Definition --> GNUe Parser -.
<jcater>                                      |-- GNUe Common
<jcater> SQL Server --> GNUe DB Drivers ------`      /\
<jcater>                                             !!
[15:15] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jcater> X-Windows-.                                 !!
<jcater>           |- wxWindows--.                   !!
<jcater> Win32-----`             |                   \/
<jcater>                      GNUe UI-----------> GFObjects
<jcater> Curses------------------|
<jcater>                         |
<jcater> HTML--------------------`
<jcater> that's my 0.02
<jcater> Ideally, this would be more linear, with the UI drivers being at the far right
<jcater> so you go from form definition + db thru common thru GFObjects to the interface
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<jcater> or maybe we shouldn't even list GNUe Common, but have GNue Common-Parser and GNUe Common-DB Drivers which both go directly to GFObjects... that'd make GFObjects more the center of attention
<jcater> anywho, back to work
<neilt> thanks
<neilt> jcater:
<neilt> derek: that does not work
<neilt> wxWindows is central to our development effort
<neilt> it would be missleading to say anything other than wxWindows will come first and other will come later
<neilt> in terms of support
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<jcater> XML Form Def --> GNUe Parser
<jcater>                      |                       .--- Curses (Soon)
<jcater>                      |                       |                .-- X Windows
<jcater> PostgreSQL --.       +>---|| GFObjects ||---<+>-- wxWindows --|-- Win32
<jcater>              |       |                       |                `-- Mac (Soon)
<jcater> MySQL--------|       |                       `--- HTML (Soon)
<jcater>              |--> GNUe DB
<jcater> DB2----------|    Drivers
<jcater>              |
<jcater> Other RDBMS--`
<jcater> oh, he left
<jcater> I think it would be misleading to say we depend on wxWindows, but more appropriately, we could say wxWindows is currently supported and others are pending
<dtm> speaking of wxwindows
<dtm> have any of you looked at IBM's sash project?
<dtm> it's a GUI IDE for automatically creating apps that are web-based an local based
<dtm> i dont know what the local targets are
<dtm> other than linux
<dtm> sash is GPL
<jcater> anyone looking, that's at: http://sash.alphaworks.ibm.com/
<dtm> jcater: have you looked? :)
<dtm> i dont know how suitable it is; just a suggestion
<jcater> looking
<dtm> I'm very irritated at the fact that society seems to see such a huge difference between web apps and local apps
<dtm> and how developer societies tend to bias toward one or the other
<dtm> a mix of the two in any environment is necessary
<dtm> and there's often no reason why people can't run web apps locally!
<dtm> with the ThinkNIC appliance, all local apps are served as cgi's from boa
<dtm> ideally the difference would be quite blurred
<reinhard> ra3vat: haven't got any mail from you yet
<reinhard> ra3vat: not trying to put you under pressure :)
<reinhard> ra3vat: but i will go to sleep in an hour or so
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> reinhard: do you ask me for configure itself?
<ra3vat> reinhard: i was busy for a while
<ra3vat> should i send configure script as how it was generated?
<ra3vat> or just full output from it?
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<reinhard> ra3vat: configure script itself
<reinhard> and config.status script itself
<reinhard> my guess is that the script isn't generated correctly for some reason
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<ra3vat> reinhard: sent
<reinhard> ra3vat: received
<reinhard> ra3vat: it seems to be a python problem
<reinhard> please try
<reinhard> python
<reinhard> >>> import sys
<reinhard> >>> print sys.version[:3]
<reinhard> --
<reinhard> this should issue something like
<reinhard> 1.4
<reinhard> 1.5
<reinhard> 2.0
<reinhard> or like that
<reinhard> it seems to issue some additional crap on your machine
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<reinhard> hey neilt
<neilt> hey
<reinhard> you got anything for me before i go to bed?
<neilt> nope, but i will have when you get up
<reinhard> cool
<neilt> i am revising the article and doing the graphics
<neilt> they should be on the web this evening
<neilt> we need a final version
<neilt> by the 10th
<reinhard> k
<reinhard> i will look tomorrow morning CET
<neilt> i would like everyone to review tomorrow
<neilt> thanks
<reinhard> ra3vat: it says something about
<reinhard> "It is from sitecustomize"
<reinhard> i don't know what this is about but maybe it rings a bell for you
<reinhard> must get me some sleep
<reinhard> night all
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<ra3vat> >>> import sys
<ra3vat> >>> print sys.version[:3]
<ra3vat> 2.0
<neilt> brb, switching op systems
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<neilt> ok i have posted a drawing of the forms stuff
<neilt> its at
<neilt> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/GNUEFormsArchitecture.png
<neilt> please feel free to comment
<jcater> purdy
Action: ajmitch decides to take a look
<ajmitch> nice
<neilt> thanks
<neilt> i have also revised the package overview
<neilt> its at
<neilt> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/GNUEPkgArchitecture.png
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<derek> ****** neilt ******************8
<derek> on this drawing
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/GNUEFormsArchitecture.png
<derek> off of wxWindows i think we need to not say XWindows but instead say
<derek> GTK and Motif as separate boxes
<derek> then add one for macOS *even if we have to note coming soon*
<derek> also add a box for bayonne (telephone)
<derek> and perceivably one for WAP/WML (as its doable just not done yet)
<derek> on the db side
<derek> we need to eitehr list ALL db's supported
<derek> or make another Plus many other db's item
<derek> as its misleading to think we only support what is listed :)
<jcater> I doubt he has enough room to list them all :)
<derek> at a minimum we should list ODBC by name as well
<derek> then say other supported dbs
<derek> or something
<derek> jcater: :)
<derek> then on the upper right input to parser
<derek> it should say GNUe Forms Defintion (XML)
<derek> or something
<derek> to denote its not any old xml but a standard coming from GNUe
<derek> other than that it looks really good. :)
<derek> ******* end note *******
<chillywilly> yes, plz add 50 more things and it will be a great drawing :P
<dtm> hi guys
<derek> hi dtm
<dtm> do you guys know anyone who's really good at dealing with nonprofit business?  like fundraising and such?
<derek> what aspect?
Action: derek does a lot with churches and ministries
<dtm> oh cool
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<derek> so depends on the specifics of what skill you are looking for
<dtm> mdean++++
<dtm> derek: oh cool
<derek> hello deanm
<mdean> while (mdean) mdean++;
<dtm> well, me and jbiggers from the DCL crew, are working on NP-related IT consulting
<dtm> except we'd like to be paid for it
<dtm> and do an exceptionally good job
<mdean> dtm: you're working with Mr. Biggersworth????
<derek> ok so whats the question?
<derek> non profits are very much like corporations in doing business with them
<dtm> mdean: trying to!
<derek> only they usually have 1/10 the budget
<derek> and its 'fixed'
<dtm> derek: yeah.  except there can be magic money from nowhere based on their mission and whether someone knows how to find it.
<derek> but i still dont get the exact question
<dtm> derek: so i'm wondering how to go about looking at a particular NP and finding how to appropriate money for my IT service for them
<derek> you asked if anyone was really good at dealing with them :)
<dtm> yeah well bear with me coz I'm not 100% sure what the questions are ;)
<derek> well it depends if you are a humanitarian or not
<dtm> or, alternately, for getting funding directly for our IT group on an NP basis
<derek> MOST NPO's (non profit organizations) have little cash for 'IT'
<jcater> yip, if you are a barbarian, it's harder to get money
<dtm> derek: these NPOs are all kinds
<derek> as it comes out of their administration budgets
<dtm> derek: yeah so i'm talking about getting money for them
<derek> dtm: im not saying you cant
<dtm> like finding and writing for grants, etc
<dtm> i know nothing of this and would like pointers on where to gain clue
<derek> you said how to find APPROPRIATE amount
<derek> if you are not a humanitarian
<derek> you setup your rate for doing X and charge them that
<derek> just like you would ANY other business
<dtm> no, i said how to "appropriate an amount"  :)
<derek> if you are a humanitarian
<derek> then you would work WITH the NPO
<derek> you would come in an say my fees are X it will cost X
<derek> but i know you have a limited budget
<derek> so..........
<Mr_You> what is the business model of your NPO?
<dtm> i dont have an NPO
<derek> at which point you can do a 'sliding scale' based on thier budget
<derek> or do 'capped work'
<derek> or help them obtain extra funds for the services
<dtm> i just have a commercial sole proprietership which would magically become a partnership if jbiggers and i teamed up
<derek> each case will be different
<dtm> derek: yeah, or i could possibly start an NPO branch of my business?
<dtm> right?
<derek> one way to go about it (which we have done for quite a few) is go out on a limb
<derek> like for a record label
<dtm> in order to have special rules for when i deal with other NPOs¿?
<derek> we told them let us get you online ordering for free
<derek> this will increase your cd sales
<derek> with that we can then turn some of that new revenue into creating an online radio station for you and getting a digital sound studio in place
<derek> so if you were able to us IT to get their donation/income up it would help justify paying for itself
<derek> the other one depending on the NPO is grants. if you know your stuff sometimes you can get grants, i.e. help them get grants for the work that you would be doing
<derek> the construction tycoons (for freeways) are FAMOUS for this
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> tycoons
<dtm> I like the sound of that
<dtm> derek, are you a tycoon yet?
<derek> i would expect to not make a bundle servicing NPO's
<dtm> oh i only want a bundle of joy :)
<derek> im a toddler tycoon
<derek> ive got two of the loudest, most unruly properties on the planet when it comes to toddlers ;)
<derek> im just warning you
<dtm> ok so you're using the radio station as a capitalistic analogy to justifying IT services for an NPO?
<derek> i would NOT do NPO work unless you really loving helping people
<dtm> that i do
<derek> and just want to make enough money to live decently and get joy of helping (which there is NOTHING wrong with)
<dtm> as long as I can pay my bills
<dtm> i want to be totally secure at living within my means
<derek> but if you have dreams of shopping for that porsche or that hummer, i wouldnt be in the NPO business :)
<dtm> any more than that would be unethical, and i'd have to just funnel it back into the community anyway
<chillywilly> bah, who wants that crap?
<derek> well unless you do work for tele evangelists ;)
<dtm> yeah i had to sell my porsche to pay for the gas and insurance!
Action: chillywilly is gonna be helping TRIO programs get more funding to support a GNUe solution
<derek> chillywilly: rock on
<chillywilly> that is one of my master plans
<dtm> my tele-evangelism schedule is full, thanks to phpgw and gnue
<jcater> chillywilly: one of my major goals (hobby-wise) is to do educational packages for gnue
<dtm> i can't teleevangelize for any communities other than theirs
<jcater> chillywilly: that's what trio is, right? education?
<chillywilly> http://www.trioprograms.org
<chillywilly> help low-income and diabled ppl get into college, through college, and a teching position after graduate school if thye go that far
<chillywilly> disabled
<chillywilly> you ever hear of upward bound program for high school kids?
<chillywilly> then there's student support services for undergraduates
<dtm> my mom just started her first day of work at our local church today
<dtm> and we're going to volunteer for joniandfriends.org
<chillywilly> then there's McNair for graduate students
<dtm> and i spent part of last weekend volunteering for isfisf.org
<chillywilly> and a couple more programs
<chillywilly> like 7 total althought those were the initial 3, hence TRIO
<chillywilly> also coming up with a GNUe system to run a church is cool too ;)
<Mr_You> anyone done any electrical engineering?
<chillywilly> hey dtm joinandfriends.org looks cool
Action: chillywilly has
<neil-pingme> derek: you here, i have some questions
Nick change: neil-pingme -> neilt
<derek> dtm: fwiw im using gnue to create church management software for my church :)
<derek> im here neilt
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<neilt> what is the wap/wml stuff and how is it done
<chillywilly> derek: g4c project?
<neilt> g4c?
<chillywilly> neilt: it web services stuff
<chillywilly> geeks4christ
<chillywilly> http://www.w3schools.org
<neilt> if i add ODBC what other db's should be added
<chillywilly> might have a wap tutorial there
<chillywilly> neilt: http://www.w3schools.com/wap/
<neilt> and how can you have gtk or motif without x windows
<chillywilly> oh I was arong it is for embeddd devices
<neilt> ?
<chillywilly> you can't
<neilt> then why say motif or gtk 
<chillywilly> well frame buffer gtk+ might be around for embedded systems
<neilt> why not just say x windows and that applies to any window manager that runs under x windows
<derek> ok sorry had to step out for a second
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah Joni rocks
<derek> um wap/wml would have to be written but so does html
<chillywilly> Mr_You: what about this electrival engineering stuff?
<chillywilly> er, electrical even
<derek> so HOW is irrelevant in that sense
<derek> ODBC should be added
<derek> and ask jcater/jamest what otehr db's
<derek> i think that sybase, interbase, informix, SAP DB, MSSQL are the key players not listed 
<derek> im sure that we support a few of those, but not all of them
<chillywilly> dtm: unfortunately, TRIO is funded by the board of education so there's no religious issues involved...but the ppl who are served are along the same lines
<derek> as to motif / gtk i think its important if you were discussing 'dependencies'
<neilt> ok i'll add odbc
<neilt> and the others
<derek> because i can have xwindows installed and working
<derek> and if i dont have gtk or motif
<derek> gnue aint gonna work w/ wxwindows
<neilt> is gtk a layer on top of x windoes?
<derek> this is particularly important for someone that installs say KDE and doesnt install the gtk libs
<chillywilly> yea it is a toolkit, X is just a protocol
<chillywilly> xlibs is also a toolkit
<neilt> not sure i understand
<jcater> I'd say X Windows (GTK)
<derek> gtk            motif
<derek>  |              |
<derek>  ----------------
<derek>         |
<derek>      xwindows
<neilt> does gnue ui communicate with gtk or motif or x windoes
<jcater> Because I like the wording "X Windows" but the (GTK) shows that this is via the GTK library
<derek> jcater: but that could mildly misleading
<jcater> why?
<derek> as currently you coudl have xwindows using gtk OR motif
<derek> and there has been rumblings of a wxQT
<chillywilly> ->gtk->gdk->X
<chillywilly> iirc
<derek> in which case it could be gtk or motif or qt
<chillywilly> kde->qt->X
<derek> but you could do
<jcater> Then why distinguish between X-Windows vs GTK/Motif/etc?
<derek> xWindows(gtk or motif)
<derek> or
<derek> xWindows(gtk)      xWindows(motif)
<derek> jcater: ?
<derek> why distinguish? because they can be different
<derek> i would be more inclined personally to say
<derek> gtk 
<derek> motif
<derek> etc
<derek> and not say xwindows
<derek> as xwindows is an implied dependency of those toolkits
<derek> at this time
<jcater> Who's the target audience for this article??
<neilt> IT staff
<derek> i would say anyone knowing that xWindows is probably nows gtk/motif/qt 
<neilt> its in a magazine for free software
<jcater> ah
<neilt> or rather
<derek> i dont want to get too technical
<neilt> this editions is about free software
<jcater> what's the magazine?
<derek> i just want to make sure we arent saying we require more than simply xwindows
<derek> yet that we have more options than jsut GTK
<jcater> right now, we only have gtk :)
<derek> i just want to make sure we are saying we require more than simply xwindows
<derek> and motif
<jcater> how?
<derek> someone at a school at one point tested motif
<neilt> We are currently preparing a special issue of the swiss magazine
<neilt> "INFORMATIK" (http://www.svifsi.ch/revue/index.html) on "Free
<neilt> Software/OpenSource Software and Business". INFORMATIK is a bi-monthly
<neilt> magazine oriented towards IT professionals - many swiss IT
<neilt> communitites and organizations have it as the regular proceeding.
<derek> wxwindows supports wxMotif
<derek> as he used motif on solaris and didnt want to install gtk
<derek> jamest could give you better specifics
<neilt> since the article would
<neilt> be translated into german and spanish - and published in serveral
<neilt> magazines (INFORMATIK works together with spanish NOVATICA).'
<derek> http://www.wxwindows.org/dl_mot2.htm
<derek> if you want to download and test the motif stuff
<chillywilly> anyone ever watch ed, edd,, and eddy on cartoon network?
<jcater> why, hell, if I'd known that, I wouldn't have installed the gtk libraries on my KDE machine
<derek> sometimes
<derek> see you should read our flowcharts :)
<neilt> hehe
<jcater> but seriously, I think X-Windows should be in the wording
<neilt> are those flowcharts on the web site
<chillywilly> what about lesstif or is motif Free software now?
<neilt> ?
<derek> in all seriousiness it woudl be GREAT to see motif tested :)
<derek> as currently its only support by gnue in theory :)
<derek> chillywilly: it works iwth lesstif as well
<neilt> how about making the box gtk, motif (xWindows)
<derek> neilt: i would lean towards Xwindows(gtk/motif)
<jcater> as a lot of "IT Professionals" I know of wouldn't know GTK from Motif, but know that X-Windows is on Unix
<derek> then if say qt came along Xwindows(gtk/motif/qt)
<neilt> ok can do
<derek> jcater: woudl that be a fair way to do it?
<jcater> derek: I thought that's what I said early on?
<derek> we dont listen to you though
<derek> havent you seen that fedex commercial?
<chillywilly> jcater: you're just an annoying AI program, you were written only to code
<chillywilly> ;P
<derek> derek: thats what i just said only you did that (me waves hands) with your hands
<chillywilly> heheh
Action: chillywilly has seen that one
<neilt> so derek is the fedex masta too
<derek> i figured jcater would really laugh being in memphis
<jcater> :)
<neilt> off revising docs, bbs
neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.67.153.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: 
<chillywilly> !jcater reboot
<chillywilly> oh man
<jcater> !chillywilly set productive_mode on
<chillywilly> zdnet seriously has its nose up M$ butt
<chillywilly> ZDNet: Microsoft IIS miscast as network villain
<jcater> yip
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#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
<neilt> ok, revision is at
<neilt> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/GNUEFormsArchitecture.png
<jcater> were you going to change "XML Form Definition" to "GNUe Form Definition (XML)" or leave that alone?  I think that's one thing derek mentioned
<jcater> (btw, it looks nice)
<neilt> ok, i missed that
<neilt> but will do
<neilt> also i guess i should add geas to the db support area
<jcater> Are you listing all currently supported DBs?
<neilt> depends on how many and how relevent
<jcater> we also support informix and interbase, but I'm not going to argue to get them listed :)
<neilt> what would you add
<jcater> I think it gets the point across as-is
<neilt> interbase is already there?
<neilt> so informix would not be a problem
<jcater> I'm sorry, I meant ingres and informix
<neilt> ok
<neilt> i will probably compact the diagram a bit
<neilt> i dont see any problem adding those two
<jcater> I'm not trying to give you a hard time :)  but it did appear that you wanted feedback
<neilt> exactly
<neilt> thank you
<neilt> i want it to be right, above all
<neilt> later all
neilt (neilt@dialup-209.244.67.153.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: 
<chillywilly> If you are concerned that your IT staff will not be able to make the transition, put an add in your local college paper for a part-time administrator and replace your dead-wood staff. You'll be suprised at how much experience some of these college kids have on system administration...but it's NOT on MS platforms!
<chillywilly> this is wrt zdnet M$ butt sniffing piece :P
<dtm> haha
<dtm> chillywilly: how the heck are ya, sir?
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> sir?!?
<chillywilly> heheh
<dtm> you are a distinguished individual amongst this community
<chillywilly> uuuuh, nah
<dtm> i have chicken fingers!
<dtm> yummi
<chillywilly> hehe
<dtm> and we used the oven instead of the microwave, so that it has the consistancy of food rather than crumbly insect guts
Action: chillywilly had a pot pie for dinner
<dtm> you're into that pot, are ya?
<dtm> is that what you kids are calling it these days?
<dtm> pot pie for dinner?
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> it was chicked not "pot"
<chillywilly> chicken
<dtm> so now it's chicken, is it?
<chillywilly> I dunno why my parents always called them pot pies
<chillywilly> I never thought about
<chillywilly> damn hippies :P
<dtm> heh
Action: dtm flops his arms weirdly and goes "bawk bawk bawk"
<dtm> you mean like that?
<dtm> is that how you kids act on "chicken"?
<chillywilly> man this zdnet article about IIS not being the villan is self dillusional b.s.
<chillywilly> iirc, you are the same age as me
<dtm> haha
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<dtm> supposin' i am
<dtm> ?!
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<jcater> damn msn service
<chillywilly> you are using msn?
<chillywilly> ooooh, that's a nice box you got there
<jcater> ??
<chillywilly> 800MHz right?
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> why is it that a company that ships a physically defective product that causes damages and lives is accountable yet a company who releases shitty software that causes money lost in downtime and unusable networks is not accountable?
<chillywilly> does M$ have a disclaimer in its EULA or something?
<mdean> because sheep think that's just the way it is - nature of the beast
<chillywilly> noe fro Free Software I can see why ppl would be devoid of the liability, but M$ is charging a crap load of money for this software and you don't even own it and it work slike shite
<chillywilly> then again they would probably make writings worms and such illegal if ppl made M$ pay which would no doubt stomp on some freedoms
<chillywilly> this comment has some nice humor: http://www.zdnet.com/tlkbck/comment/22/0,7056,117960-949582,00.html
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<mdean> lol - what a freakin' idiot
<chillywilly> who?
<chillywilly> the poster?
<mdean> the article author
<chillywilly> ooooh yea
<chillywilly> his logic is severly flawed
<mdean> I guess (to use his "analogy") running IIS is like falling on ice
<mdean> haha - "Add to this the fact that the recommended platforms are known to require more skilled administrative practices..."
<mdean> God forbid you know what's going on behind the scenes while you fiddle with the mouse pointing and clicking until it works
SachaS (schlegel@ken.cs.curtin.edu.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> I think this goes to show how M$ will just self distruct anyway and having some nice secure stable Free software doesn't hurt either
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-10-06-006-20-OP-MS-0021
<mdean> that says it all
<derek> well it doesnt say it all
<derek> but it says a lot :)
Action: jbailey is away: Food, Simpsons. =)
<jcater> mmm, food
<SachaS> hi guys. i am thinking of installing gnuenterprise to check it out. What do you recommend?
<derek> lots of patience :)
<derek> actually i think its a good idea
<mdean> and whiskey
<SachaS> this is not very encouraging ... 
<chillywilly> haha!
<chillywilly> they are joking
<SachaS> i know that you cannot just check out an sap system.
<chillywilly> you need a little smack too
<chillywilly> or whatever your drug of choice is ;)
<mdean> reminds me of an Alice In Chains tune...
<mdean> SachaS: common and forms are relatively painless to get running once you've satisfied their depends (wxPython, etc)
<SachaS> you software is very user friendly: if you want to install it take some whiskey and drugs
<SachaS> mdean. is there a rpm or deb for the current version or is it not that simple?
<mdean> dunno - I built it from CVS
<SachaS> mdean. you download the source and compile it?
<mdean> yup - CVS version as of two (or so) days ago
<mdean> I was going to muck around with reports once derek had some XSLT magic worked up
<chillywilly> mdean: you havebeen assimilated?
<derek> SachaS: not current rpm or deb
<derek> but all the dependencies have current rpm/debs
<derek> once you have those grab cvs
<mdean> chillywilly: I'm much more willing to pour some development effort into GNUe than phpGW - as needed of course :)
<derek> and its really as simple as
<derek> python setup.py install
<derek> two times
<derek> one for common
<chillywilly> mdean: really?
<derek> one for forms
<derek> and you are set
<chillywilly> mdean: kewl
<derek> so on scale of 'difficult to install' gnue really isnt too bad
<SachaS> ok. i might be naive. once installed is there a big configuration part?
<derek> nope
<derek> really rather simple
<SachaS> i once had a introduction to SAP :) and there you can keep configure and configure and configure ...
<mdean> just the connections file
<derek> connection.conf file
<derek> SachaS: but remember this is just the 'tools' not the applications
<derek> geas (our appserver) is a little more tricky to install but NOT much
<derek> ./autogen.sh
<derek> make
<derek> make install
<derek> and then it has a bit more application configuration but really
<derek> geas.conf
<derek> and the application part is pretty automatic via a script
<chillywilly> mdean: so has dcl been assimilated?
<SachaS> derek. so first install the dependencies eg phyton. then install forms and common from cvs. edit connection file then install the geas server and configure it
<chillywilly> ;
<chillywilly> ;)
<mdean> chillywilly: I'm thinking of forking DCL at some point - to a PSP/GNUe version
<mdean> well - GNUe, I guess ;-)
<mdean> once web forms are working with PSP again
<chillywilly> awesome
<chillywilly> where is this psp front end ast anyway, I want web forms
<mdean> I hear it fell off the wagon a ways back
<chillywilly> MichaY was supposed to have done this or something
<chillywilly> or had some code
<chillywilly> iirc
<chillywilly> python is much sexier than php
<chillywilly> ;)
<mdean> ja
Action: chillywilly has done a bit of php coding - http://sourceforge.net/projects/trioweb/
<mdean> ahhh - I've visted that project before - not sure why, probably browsing PHP projects
<chillywilly> man that project is old....heh
<derek> it was madlocke
<derek> then he got sick
<chillywilly> oh was it
<derek> ok let me go to beginning
<chillywilly> sorry
<derek> madlocke had it working but had changed some of way UI objects worked to do it
<derek> jamest/jcater were in middle of db driver mega hack
<derek> and didnt want to attempt a merge until they were done
<chillywilly> k
<derek> tehy finished and are ready to tackle new UI system
<derek> of which madlockes work woudl be the start
<derek> he fell sick and so they were waiting on him
<chillywilly> that's how all apps should be imho, pluggable back and front ends
<derek> rav said madlocke is on way to moscow now and is feeling better
<chillywilly> kewl
<derek> so hopefully w/in month we will see the UI cleanup really take shape
<derek> which will produce a web frontend for forms :)
<chillywilly> we gonna get menus yet?
<derek> and open door for bayonne (telephone) front end as well :)
<derek> chillywilly: that is a separate animal out side the ui portion
<derek> SachaS: what operating system are you running?
<derek> windows
<derek> gnu/linux
<chillywilly> well it would be just another widget right?
<derek> solaris
<derek> freebsd?
<derek> chillywilly: well two things a. we could add menu widgets b. we add a menuing system
<derek> i think for sake of ease we will want to do b and not a, but we could do both
<SachaS> derek. gnu/linux
<derek> ok what distro?
<derek> debian / redhat / mandrake / suse?
<SachaS> here in uni a red hat but at home i go for debian.
<derek> ok
<derek> this should be fairly easy for you then :)
<derek> you will need
<derek> python 2.x 
<derek> pyxml
<derek> wxPython
<derek> wxGTK
<derek> they are all available in rpms for both rh6.x and 7.x as well as debian testing
<derek> those are your 'key dependencies'
<SachaS> i might to try it on debian first. this school has a stupid policy that you (as student) are not allowed to install software yourself.
<derek> then what database do you plan on using
<SachaS> ok. 
<SachaS> i had a project once with postgresql
<SachaS> i would go for postgresql
<derek> ok postgres you will need
<derek> popy or pygresql
<mdean> good choice :-)
<derek> and that is enough to get you up in 2 tier mode
<derek> then if you get the application server
<derek> you will need
<derek> orbit
<derek> libuuid (i think)
<SachaS> ... a friend of mine works at SAP and he once told me that the sap db is his favourite.
<SachaS> ok.
<derek> i think we support that , but jcater would have to be the official authority on it :)
<SachaS> cool.
<SachaS> which versions shall i get from your cvs?
<SachaS> stable or developper?
<derek> we only have one version :)
<SachaS> ok
<derek> do a 
<derek> cvs checkout gnue/gnue-common
<derek> cvs checkout gnue/gnuef
<derek> to start 
<derek> probably 
<derek> cvs checkout gnue/designer
<derek> also
<derek> CVS           _empty    empty        informix   odbc        psycopg
<derek> __init__.py   _static   factory.py   ingres     oracle      pypgsql
<derek> __init__.pyc  cxoracle  factory.pyc  interbase  popy        sapdb
<derek> _dbsig        db2       geas         mysql      postgresql  sybase
<derek> sapdb does appear supported
Action: jcater rushes to test the driver further
<derek> rofl
<mdean> jcater: isn't that the user's job?  to find all the bugs?
<jcater> oh, yeah
<jcater> good point
<mdean> hehe
<jcater> I will say that introspection currently only works w/postgresql, so the wizards in designer are not yet useful for anything else :(
<jcater> but I'm working on that
<jcater> but forms and family should work fine w/the drivers listed
<derek> techincally so does designer
<derek> just not 'wizards' correct?
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> do things work with python 2.2?
<jcater> afaik
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> I should install a more bleeding edge python
<jcater> after some masta-influenced bugfixes
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> will have to play with that some time later
<chillywilly> tonight
<derek> python 2.2 and very latest of wxPython and friends 'appears' to be working for me
<derek> though i havent tested db access yet :)
<jcater> chillywilly: if you are really wanting to be bleeding edge, 
Action: derek needs to go try and grab latest pygresql
<derek> or popy
<jcater> do python2.2 w/wxMotif
<derek> jcater: good point
<jcater> You will be greatly appreciated
<derek> that should provide lots of 'swearing'
Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:49:17)
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> I guess i couls try things
<derek> jbailey how those debs coming?
<derek> i think SachaS said he was willing to test them ;)
<chillywilly> are there debian packages for motif stuff?
<chillywilly> motif is Free software now right?
<SachaS> derek. i would get the dependencies with apt-get for testing. gnue from source or deb
<jbailey> derek: Not so well right now, since I've been arguing with autoconf on another project (I'm trying to learn what's new in the 2.5.  Apparently automake 1.5 can now compile python code...
<jbailey> )
<jbailey> chillywilly: I don't know about motif, but lesstif was very complete last time I saw.
<chillywilly> motif is fugly, imho
<mdean> chillywilly: motif is now Open Motif (or something)
<chillywilly> thought so
<mdean> hehe - damn ugly!
<jbailey> derek: I am also trying to figure they best way to suggest changing the environment while still preserving building on win32 without a posix shell.
<mdean> but good back in the day
<jcater> jbailey: you need (drum roll, please)
<jcater> GNU/Win32
<chillywilly> you mean you don;t wanna require cygwin?
<chillywilly> ;)
<jbailey> jcater: Concur - But derek specifically requested without cygwin.
<jcater> jbailey: just kidding (inside joke)
<jbailey> inside?
<jbailey> inside whom?
<derek> forcing cygwin is not acceptable :)
Action: chillywilly thinks the windows gnue installer should install cygwin and then run a shell script :P
<jcater> derek: fyi, in the base directory (gnue) there's now a ./setup.py that sets up a CVS-runnable environment for all of GNUe
<jcater> (except GEAS b/c I had no clue :)
<jcater> it only works for a CVS install, though (it's not a production install)
<chillywilly> geas sucks as you have to pick the db with configure
<chillywilly> unless you were to prompt them
<chillywilly> --enable-debug is probably best to turn on for cvs build
<jcater> geas is left as an exercise for the reader
<derek> jcater: sweet
<jcater> derek: btw, reports is runnable in cvs
<derek> jcater : yeah
<chillywilly> does setup.py stuff let you pick something interactively?
Action: derek needs to get pygresql or whatever fixed up
<derek> considering trying out popy
<derek> does introspection work w/ popy?
<jcater> AFAIK
<derek> hmmm maybe i should try it :)
<jcater> I think postgresql specific stuff was abstracted out, so all the 
<jcater> postgresql drivers use the same base
<jcater> (for building queries, introspection, etc)
<jbailey> gotta run, sorry...
<chillywilly> any C++ gurus?
<chillywilly> say I wanna declare a static member
<jcater> also, our Wizard Chooser thingy now automatically finds all installed wizards, plus when you select one from the list, it will actually run that one :)
<chillywilly> Mutex GSim::tracelock;
<chillywilly> is that gonna work?
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Action: chillywilly can't think
<derek> i saw that check in weeee haaaaa
Action: chillywilly runs cvs up
<derek> hahaha should i be cutting edge and run popy 3.0 beta1 :)O
Action: chillywilly goes back to his fun c++ code
<chillywilly> ah well if the compiler bitches I'll know I did it wrong
<chillywilly> jcater: you are a man possessed
Action: derek is a compiling fool
<derek> i think now everything required to run gnue im using from source
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<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> this is very un-masta-like
<chillywilly> all from cvs?
<chillywilly> man I need to go get that last enchelada (sp?)
<derek> well i seem to have a compiled popy what is the syntax for popy
<derek> crap he is gone
<derek> hmmm im thinking popy driver is busted
<derek> it lets me log in but thats about it
<derek> argh
<derek> mxDateTime licks bag
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> they need to port to a newer python eh?
<derek> did i say that outloud
<chillywilly> yup
Action: chillywilly should add support for setting up GEAS with the top setup.py
<derek> prolly
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#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ
<derek> oops
<chillywilly> doh!
<mdean> derek: got the db classes all done up for accounts/contacts - just need to throw together UI and glue
<derek> cool
<derek> im fighting mxDateTime
<derek> i think i give up
<derek> compiling it is hell
<derek> missing .h files all over the place
<derek> they went commercial (ick)
<derek> and now they suck even worse
<derek> time to switch to mysql
Action: mdean thwaps derek
Action: derek needs to get psp installed too
<derek> mdean that was a VERY sarcastic comment
<derek> i would rather fight really bad configure scripts
<mdean> good :)
<derek> than subject myself to mysql hell
<mdean> I would rather rewrite it myself ;-)
<mdean> derek: you ever think of XUL support?
Action: derek hugs his popy
<derek> er pygresql
<derek> all better now
<derek> mdean: yes 
<derek> you want some gnue history?
<mdean> sure
<derek> ok jade and i wrote a package that now runs the largest independent vendor of m & m mars candy
<derek> with full edi capabilities and the such
<derek> we wrote in Delphi against MySQL back end (and yes this is why i now HATE mysql)
<derek> it is still in use today and doing weel
<derek> well
<derek> HOWEVER we made it very specific to the demands of this customer
<derek> then we got propositioned to do a similar inventory/shipping/invoicing system for a gun manufacturer
<derek> we said no problem we have it written already
<derek> but then when we started taking requirements we were like crap
<derek> this changes a MAJOR way we are doing something
<derek> we would have to rewrite this
<derek> thats when we said ok if we do this we need to make something MODULAR and ADAPTABLE
<derek> so that its EASY to extend ESPECIALLY for different vertical industries
<derek> we were buzzword geeks and thought man the net is the computer we need browswer based
<derek> so we started jadeke
<derek> it was a php engine
<derek> that was xml based forms (like gnue forms)
<derek> so you could do <input field="foo"> etc
<derek> and it would bind to field foo in a table
<derek> and then we got really clever decided to make it xml-rpc based (this was about 3 years ago by the way)
<derek> we got it functional
<derek> and it kicked some serious ass (i think the code could still be valuable to someone)
<derek> anyhow this relates to mozilla
<derek> becaues mozilla was at M9 or so
<derek> we were going to use that as our 'front end'
<derek> i wrote tons of XUL cool i used to go by XULFool i used it so damn much
<derek> look at bug reports and submissions and mozillazine
<derek> or old irc logs
<derek> jade and i were pushing a lot of the development
<derek> seemed we were the only ones 'using' it
<derek> i spent about a month with mike shaver and some other guy
<derek> trying to come up with a databound xul widgets
<derek> they werent getting it
<derek> the options were basically use RDF
<derek> well RDF data for enterprise apps AINT gonna cut it
<derek> then we looked at making xpcom components that woudl sit on the client to do db connectivity
<derek> shaver then left for anotehr company and m11 was so horrible (like 10 steps back) we cut xul loose
<derek> and went to just dhtml
<derek> about this time i said you know what the web sucks for most of this
<derek> 80% of what we need you can do on the web
<derek> but the 20% we cant we just cant
<derek> i stumbled on gnue which was all but dead
<derek> and hooked up with jamest and the rest is history :)
<derek> anyhow as recently as last month when installing .9.4 mozilla i was talking to the folks there
<derek> and saying i would still be interested in seeing a gnue ui in xul
<derek> for giggles
<mdean> that is some history
<mdean> I think it would be cool
<derek> one guy was interested but still as of today they dont have database aware xul components
<derek> and the options still remain the same
<mdean> I doubt they ever will unless someone writes it for them
<derek> about 15 people in the channel said oh write the components it would be so cool
<derek> and i felt like saying f that :)
<derek> i asked for them 3 years ago :)
<derek> well 2.5 years ago 
<derek> but thats where it sits
<mdean> does XPCOM do any form of RPC?
<derek> we get a lot of people bagging that we didnt use glade xml (which is so diff than what we are doing really) and james has a history there as the first forms did use glade xml :)
<derek> mdean: yes i believe it does it can talk to corba and xml-rpc iirc in some fashion but its UGLY
<derek> xpcom was just nasty when i looked at it
<derek> no worse than com i suppose but i didnt like com much :)
<derek> then people bag that we dont use XUL, so its always fun to tell the story
<dtm> hi again.
<mdean> it's an alternative - better than DHTML if you can make it work
<mdean> I was just thinking forms->XSLT->XUL if it was at all possible ;-)
<mdean> dtm: howdy d00d
<derek> 10-19-99 was a day we hashed a lot out with shaver and watterson
<derek> so i guess i lied it was only 2 years ago 
<derek> rofl looking back i wrote one of the original irc to html log converters for the developer sessions
<dtm> mdean: so mike were you saying in #dcl that you're actually doing some 'real' work at risco?
<dtm> mdean: something with open standards?
<dtm> i mean, openly 'real' work
<derek> its coming back
<mdean> I spose you could say that - DOM compliant DHTML, JavaScript, XML, XSLT stuff
<derek> this was another MAJOR stickign point for us
<derek> <XULFool>   Is there any standard way for developers to code their own widgets? Or is this currently discouraged?    <waterson>   because they will not force the layout engine to reflow quite as much        delete: ?    <chrisn>   are you expecting that loading of large mail folders will reach the speed of 4.x before release?    <waterson>   XULFool: right now, the widget system isn't extensable
<derek> <hyatt>   XULFool: Gecko doesn't provide a clean way of doing this, so if you want to write your own widget, right now you have to code it in C++ and put it directly in the layout DLL.    <XULFool>   sounds fun ;-)
<mdean> ouch
<dtm> as opposed to disguising your 'real' work inside the tarpit your neanderthal buddy is managing
<derek> <XULFool>   are there any known applications that use XUL as their framework? other than Mozilla.    <waterson>   chrisn: I think that there is a vague reference to a JS "add flash" API...        ...we still need to get that done.    <chrisn>   waterson: ok    <hyatt>   XULFool: Not that anyone has told me about. :)
<dtm> mdean: so are you having fun at Risco/
<dtm> ?
<dtm> mdean: tell christine hi for me
<dtm> mdean: i've been trying to keep jbiggers in line lately.  he only wants to talk on YIM for some reason.
<mdean> dtm: I'm content for now - not a whole lotta fun, but I'm learning some cool stuff
<dtm> they're ramping up anti-terrorism measures in San Francisco
<chillywilly> what's risco?
<dtm> i'm not sure what's going on up there
<dtm> chillywilly: mdean works at risco.com
<mdean> chillywilly: http://www.risco.net/
<dtm> chillywilly: jbiggers used to work there
<dtm> er yeah, s/.com/.net/
<dtm> dont forget the trailing slash
<mdean> the current site is like fisher-price or something
<dtm> heheh
<dtm> mdean: so how the heck are ya buddy
<dtm> mdean: and how's michelle, tine, and the manchild... what's his name
<dtm> ?
<dtm> Larry?
<mdean> dtm: we're all peachy as usual - JJ
<dtm> Doran?
<mdean> hehe
<mdean> Leisure Suit Larry?
<dtm> Michel?
<dtm> Jermaine Jackson?
<mdean> J a m e s
<mdean> James Dean - rebel without applause
<dtm> i figured that you oughtta call him Michel, because for some reason you've already got Michael and Michelle
<dtm> and families are all about compromise.  you want the best for your children, dont you mike?
<dtm> you gotta learn how to bend, man.
<dtm> maybe it's me, but i feel like it would be awfully generous of you if you renamed your son to Michel
<mdean> bend them, yes
<derek> i dont like the net
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> you can find really dumb things you said years ago
<dtm> derek: haha
<dtm> derek: like in #gnue logs?
<derek> oh gosh dont go tehre
<derek> those are relatively new :)
<dtm> derek: you can dislike it, or you can create a tradition out of it
<dtm> saying stoopid stuff in #gnuenterprise is my pride and joy
<derek> dtm: good point
<dtm> see, i try to do it on purpose
<dtm> coz it's gonna happen
<derek> actually the stuff in gnue i seem prophetic more often than not
<dtm> so the dumb stuff just doesn't make any difference amidst the masses of wacked out non sequitur
<derek> so it feels good to read old gnue stuff :)
<dtm> hehe
Action: chillywilly doesn't wanna read stuff he has said
<dtm> haha
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> i've done searches for my name on google.com and up comes the mailing lists
<chillywilly> lots of time I was on something when I said it
<chillywilly> seems tat way anyway
<chillywilly> that
<dtm> i was on a lot of mailing lists when i worked at Netcom.  working at Netcom is the exact same as being on drugs.   we had a lot of current and former drug users running everything at Netcom.
<chillywilly> you write realtpr sofwtare mdean?
<dtm> plus i was on the 3rd shift
<chillywilly> realtor
<derek> ok time to be off for a bit
<mdean> chillywilly: yup 
<chillywilly> we can't have that masta
Action: derek needs to get lastest cvs and catch up with mdean
<derek> is the gnue tree in there
<chillywilly> things might get out of control with you gone
<dtm> i was saying pseudointelligent stuff on ntlug-discuss, svlug-discuss, toasters@mathworks.com (netapp), software-raid, and 3com linux drivers mailnig lists
<derek> er dcl/gnue
<derek> for the forms?
<dtm> chillywilly: It is I who shall keep order.
<dtm> Order and peace.
<chillywilly> roflmao
<chillywilly> shea right
Action: dtm blasts chillywilly with The Ray
Action: dtm demonstrates an example for all to see
<mdean> derek: not yet - just the xml - but I've changed the schema slightly
Action: mdean really likes his PSP XSLT DDL DHTML browser...
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> is DDL an xml dialect?
perlh (a@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise.
<mdean> data definition language
<mdean> yer create table statements and such
<dtm> mdean likes to use all these big words and acronyms to make the rest of us (that being me) feel dumb
<dtm> he's a true artisan
<chillywilly> bah
<dtm> a genius.  a wunderkind.
<chillywilly> axcronyms don't impress me
<chillywilly> there's too damn many of them
<dtm> he flaunts the impossible.
<chillywilly> DDL is db agnostic then?
<mdean> chillywilly: the beauty of acronyms is that you can make up your own
<chillywilly> sure
<chillywilly> like
<chillywilly> GROAN
<mdean> TLA
<chillywilly> GNU's Reusable Object Adaptor Network
<chillywilly> beat that man!
<mdean> Three Letter Acronym
<dtm> mdean eats GROANs for breakfast!
<mdean> dtm: no - I'm GRO
<mdean> err...GROAN intolerant
Action: dtm shoves mdean into the corner of the ring, hoses him down, slaps him around, and sends him back out there fightin'
<dtm> YA GUNNA MERDER 'EM, KID
<dtm> i see absolutely no reason why you guys won't all move to Pleasanton.
<dtm> this is absurd
Action: mdean wonders if he's making any money off this...
<dtm> I just can't figure it out.
<mdean> too far away from RISCO
<chillywilly> they let you work at home?
<dtm> I clothe you.  I bathe you.  I feed you.  I beat you ceremonially with Klingon pain sticks.  I wash your cars.  And what thanks do I get?
<dtm> It's risco this.  And risco that.  Just coz risco pays yer bills, or something.
<dtm> Why's it always about _your_ job?  Why can't you come do _my_ job for a change?
<dtm> chillywilly: if i got you a job in Pleasanton, you'd move here wouldn't you?
<dtm> And live with me.  And finally, we could be a family again.
<chillywilly> you live in a place called pleasanton?
<chillywilly> ya mdean
<chillywilly> er dtm
<chillywilly> why doe sit cycle through nicks
<dtm> coz mdean's the man
<dtm> obviously your irc client is prejudiced.  and who can blame it?
<chillywilly> well I hit tab twice
<dtm> that's no excuse
<chillywilly> what sorta job dtm?
<dtm> of course it's going to pick mdean.
<chillywilly> I don't do house slave anymore
<chillywilly> that jobs doesn;t pay well
<chillywilly> er, job
<dtm> chillywilly: hmm   it'd only cost ya about $18/hr 40hrs/week to break even here
<chillywilly> man
<dtm> if you dont have serious debt payments and such
<dtm> you could earn that answering phones
<chillywilly> screw CA
Action: chillywilly aits for it to break off and float away into the ocean
<dtm> huh
<dtm> chillywilly are you forgetting it is I who possess The Ray?
<chillywilly> your ray is powerless against GNUe Man
<dtm> it is I who order the pieces.  or something.
<chillywilly> and I am secretly he
<chillywilly> oops
<dtm> *gasp*
<chillywilly> lol
<dtm> haha jbiggers is funny.  he doesn't mind doing Windows administration.
<dtm> what a clown
<dtm> hmm  btw i think i could use a house slave
<chillywilly> ya but you hafta feed me then
<chillywilly> and I don't com alone
<dtm> well that depends on what i hafta feed ya
<chillywilly> I got a fiance and a child
<dtm> do you take corn flakes?
<chillywilly> so...
<dtm> oh really? well then you can rent the master suite
<chillywilly> I eat anything
<dtm> you can eat big boxes of corn flakes then.
<dtm> corn flayx for all!
<chillywilly> that would get borgin after a while
<dtm> hey dont be picky!
<chillywilly> too late
--- Tue Oct  9 2001