[00:34] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<chillywilly> hiya
<jcater> hoya
<chillywilly> wassapneen
<jcater> nuttin' much
<chillywilly> oh, since I got you here
<jcater> how presumptious of you
<chillywilly> don't you hate it when women bring up past stuff to get mad at that you already explained what happened before?
<chillywilly> ok, maybe I should've said since you are here
<chillywilly> lords knows *I* didn't actually get you here
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> if anything I would've scared you away :P
<jcater> I know the feeling
<jcater> (re the women, not the scaring)
<chillywilly> like ok she calls me out of the blue and goes oh you remeber that dya that....blah blah, what really went on? then she goes and gets mad and says I don;t believe you....bah, who cares that was years ago I barely even remeber so if it really was that big of a deal don't you think I wou;d've remembered
<jcater> dude
<jcater> you having problems tonight?
<chillywilly> no, this was a couple days ago
<chillywilly> just bugged me
<chillywilly> I just like to bitch and moan to you as you seem to have as much fun as I do ;P
<jcater> lol
<jcater> yip
<jcater> could be worse, though
<jcater> there could be dead silence when ya get home
<chillywilly> adnyou are magically supposed to know what is wrong?
<chillywilly> supposed to use your psychic powers or something?
<jcater> "well, if you don't know, I'm not tellin ya"
<chillywilly> when are they gonna get it, men are not mysterious at all
<chillywilly> just be straight forward and tell me damnit
<chillywilly> then I can proceed to apologze 50 times or so and go buy you some flowers or whatever
<jcater> www.dans.com
<jcater> mmm
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> hey thanks man
<chillywilly> this is the only way to survive
<jcater> those are wonderful
<chillywilly> rack up the points ahead of time
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> they are shipped fresh
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> wow, they sound real good from the commentaries
<chillywilly> but hey witha  name like dan's how could you go wrong ;)
<derek> jcater: your back 
<derek> i need sleep though
<derek> if you get a 'populated sample' can you email it to me :)O
<chillywilly> hey derek
<jcater> derek: I'll try
<jcater> I'm kinda pooped
<jcater> I am copying me DCL db from work as we speak
<jcater> so I can have data to play with
<jcater> mmm... chocolate
<chillywilly> yea, mmmm
<chillywilly> hey dan's chocolate could use a GNUe system ;)
<jcater> mmm... chocolate
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> bah, they use qmail though
<chillywilly> they need to switch to GNU Mailman
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> bah
<jcater> they should switch to postalnet
<chillywilly> uh, no
<chillywilly> j/k
<chillywilly> what is so great about that?
<jcater> nothing'
<chillywilly> I know a guy who administers boxes and runs a mailing list service for a living
<chillywilly> he has his own modified version of GNU Mailman
Action: jcater should sleeeep now
<jcater> or sleep even
Action: chillywilly notes jcater "syncs" his machine quite often
<chillywilly> what does that really mean?
<chillywilly> your checking in code?
<jcater> that means I leave work to go home and work some more
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<jcater> I have 5 machines I regularly develop gnue with
<chillywilly> 5?
<chillywilly> you got 5 machines at home?
<jcater> two at work (my personal BSD workstation for experimental development and the main redhat server)
<jcater> my debian laptop
<jcater> my openbsd system at my apartment
<jcater> and my slackware system at my house
<jcater> depends on where I am
<chillywilly> you have an apartment and a house?
<jcater> yes
Action: chillywilly forgets that you are a PHB
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> chillywilly: my wife and I separated 9 months ago, but are getting back together
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> eeek
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> make more sense now? :)
<chillywilly> uh, yes I guess so
<chillywilly> maybe I shouldn't be complaining so much with you then
<jcater> why?
<chillywilly> we're
<chillywilly> ooops
<chillywilly> cause really it ia all crap that isn't important
<jcater> well
<jcater> it was a breakdown in communication that did us in the first time
<jcater> (some of the same things I joke about)
<jcater> all I can say is be sensitive to what she is trying to say, not what is being said :)
<chillywilly> did she go with you to SF?
<jcater> no
<chillywilly> or was that jamest's wife
<jcater> no, jamest's wife didn't go w/me to SF either
<jcater> she did go w/jamest tho
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> you know what I mean
<chillywilly> don't make me come over there
<jcater> we were still separated while I was in SF
<jcater> it was the accident w/our son that got us back together
<chillywilly> oh
<jcater> night
Nick change: jcater -> jcZzz
<dtm> chillywilly: hi
<chillywilly> howdy
<chillywilly> what are you doing up man?
<dtm> i'm typing on a keyboard!
<chillywilly> really?
<chillywilly> no way?
<dtm> if you're nice, i'll let you read it!
<dtm> ;)
<dtm> i'm microwaving some soup
<chillywilly> ok
Action: chillywilly is thinking of eating the left over pizza
Action: dtm observes his soup being eaten
<dtm> chillywilly: are you married?  or just with an SO and child?
<dtm> i forgetted.
<dtm> coz i was gonna axe what their names are
<chillywilly> I am not married
<dtm> you might end up telling me that several times in the course of our relationship
<chillywilly> caroline and scotty
<chillywilly> what is SO?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<chillywilly> I figured it out finally
<dtm> ok!
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> significant other
<dtm> and are they doing ok?
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> thanks for asking :)
<dtm> how old is Scotty?
<dtm> sho' 'nuff dewd
<chillywilly> 4
<dtm> he's a big boy then
<chillywilly> he's getting there
<chillywilly> he pretty tall for his age
<dtm> to use a traditional phrase; not to be gender biased
<dtm> does he know what he wants to do when he grows up?
<dtm> when i was four-and-a-half i wanted to be a baseball player and an architect
<chillywilly> I dunno I never asked him that
<dtm> i see
<chillywilly> I'll ask tomorrow
<chillywilly> ok ;)
<dtm> hee hee
<chillywilly> I am sure he will have lots to tell me
<dtm> i was 4.5 yrs old for a long long long long time
<dtm> do you live with him?
<chillywilly> not right now
<chillywilly> I did for a while
<dtm> yep
<chillywilly> I just don't get along with her mother
<chillywilly> she drives me nucking futs
<dtm> i'm just curious btw; i dont mean to pry
<chillywilly> I don't mind devulgin my screwed up life
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> I have nothing to jide
<chillywilly> hide
<dtm> i see!
<dtm> you say "her mother" .. who's "her"?
<chillywilly> caroline silly
<dtm> oh yes
<dtm> and does Caroline live with Caroline's mom?
<chillywilly> yep
<dtm> so you lived with those two plus Scotty?
<chillywilly> and I with mine
<dtm> so you now live with your mom?
<chillywilly> and her mom and dad
<chillywilly> yep
<dtm> whoa.  so you're living with your mom and grandparents?
<chillywilly> no no
<dtm> that's not American!  do you guys have totem poles, rituals, and artifacts?  ;>
<dtm> hahah
<dtm> j/k
<chillywilly> caroline, scotty, me, mom and dad lived in ther house for while
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<dtm> holy cow.
Action: dtm computes the logistics therein
<reinhard> chillywilly: it's not unusual to have 5 computers btw
<reinhard> i have that too
<reinhard> but all in the same building :)
<chillywilly> uh, well you guys are all rich
<chillywilly> I am a poor student still in a lot of respects :P
<reinhard> hehe
<chillywilly> well you have paying jobs though
<reinhard> one is a 486 SX
<chillywilly> well I got  aP166
<chillywilly> I wann change it into a server
<reinhard> but it does a good work as a internet gateway
<reinhard> and firewall
<reinhard> the other is a 7 year old pentium 75 server
<reinhard> which is so noisy that i almost never turn it on
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> heheh
<reinhard> the cool thing is this old thing is from the company i worked for
<reinhard> it's a sco unix machine
<reinhard> and by chance i found out lately
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<reinhard> that our sysadmin has installed bash, gcc, gnu make and some other gnu stuff on that machine
<reinhard> in 1995!
<reinhard> so i have used gnu since 1995 and wasn't even aware of that :)
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<chillywilly_> ugh
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<jcater> reinhard: in 1995, SCO released the SCO Skunkworks '95 CD to its customers
<jcater> which, of course, was mostly free stuff
<jcater> and they shipped it out to all their customers
<jcater> go figure
<jcater> that would probably explain why you got gnu in '95 and didn't know it
<jcater> I was excited as it actually made SCO somewhat usable (at least with non-SCO software :)
<reinhard> jcater: interesting
<reinhard> i will ask my former sysadmin next time i meet him
<reinhard> say in a year or two ;)
<reinhard> but you could certainly be right
<jcater> prior to caldera's aquisition of sco, 
<jcater> the best place to find free software for openserver
<jcater> was www.sco.com/skunkware
<jcater> but they removed it :(
<jcater> (precompiled packages for use w/sco's 'custom' command)
<reinhard> i never dealt with that
<reinhard> i was just a code slave at that time
<jcater> lol
<reinhard> that was not funny, imagine we sat there in rows
<reinhard> the people in the street could see through the window
<reinhard> our masta behind our back with the 
<reinhard> whip
<reinhard> beating us all the time
<reinhard> and sometimes a mother walking by told her kids
<reinhard> "don't worry, we only buy programs from happy coders"
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> ah, cool, caldera somehwat kept it: http://www.caldera.com/skunkware/faq.html#q2
<reinhard> how do you say that in English? we have something like "buy eggs only from lucky hen" or like that
<reinhard> or from happy hen
<jcater> um, not sure
<jcater> we may use the happy hen analogy too
Action: jcater doesn't get out much
<reinhard> which means that the eggs come from hen that can run freely
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> this is probably the reason why there is this gnome weather applet
<reinhard> so that coders like us at least know what the weather is like outside :)
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<jcater> derek: you around???
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<derek> jcater: am here now
<jcater> ah
<jcater> you should be getting an email
<derek> cool
<derek> i have family obligations today
<derek> so probably wont play until tomorrow
<derek> or late tonight
<jcater> ok
<derek> i was anxious so transformed your mailmerge to html :)
<derek> the little sample recordset you have out there
<jcater> cool
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<derek> crap
<derek> i can do a transformation for you 
<derek> but for reports i wasnt expecting it to look like that on out putt
<derek> output at all
<derek> as doing so would require a custom style sheet for every report
<derek> i was much more expecting output to look identical to the template (grd)
<derek> only with data
<derek> so you might have
<derek> <section>
<jcater> derek: that's what I was talking about the other day
<jcater> how reports would output ANY xml
<jcater> but I wanted a standard for GNUe
<derek> :)
<jcater> I want everyone's input
<derek> ok yes we need that :)
<jcater> on what we need
<derek> we need something like access or crystal reports kind of 'terminology'
<derek> of section / group / label / etc
<derek> i think we need those for the grd
<derek> but they would be evident in the output xml as well
<derek> as those things make good things to make 'style sheet rules' on
<mdean> you need a minimum of report / report header / section / section header / section footer / report footer
<mdean> and section data I guess :)
<derek> jcater: you be around tomorrow?
<derek> or late tonight
<derek> maybe we can start a document (gack docs i know)
<derek> and it can be a 'proposal of sorts'
<derek> mdean : if you care, it would be nice to get your input
<derek> who knows maybe we can 'lure' dcl into the gnue report server :)
<mdean> I helped design our current publishing system at work, so I know some strengths/weaknesses to watch out for in some respects
<jcater> derek: yes
<jcater> mdean: that's exactly what I was thinking
<jcater> (w/headers/footers at various levels)
<jcater> derek: my original proposal might be a starting point for docs
<mdean> ja - it's really all you need, and you may have to make two passes through the report to make some info available for headers
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/GNUe-Reports-Format.html
<jcater> (if you look at the date on that, you should guess that it's slightly outdated :)
<mdean> you could use several stylesheets against one report to allow drilling down, sorting, and additional filtering, so the resulting output xml should describe the data very well, as opposed to the layout
<jcater> interesting thought
<jcater> I really need to look at XSLT
<mdean> you *could* even generate xslt on the fly for really customized viewing ;-)
<jcater> there are a lot of possibilities here
<jcater> in reality, all the GNUe-Reports engine is 
<jcater> is a data to XML transformation engine
<jcater> (i.e., it can take any number of datasources 
<jcater> and transform into XML of any complexity)
<jcater> we plan on having our "Standard" way of using GNUe-Reports
<mdean> yeah - and actually - you could even get by without imposing the order by clause on the sql query to improve performance
<jcater> but its uses could extend beyond what our goals are
<mdean> and push that into the stylesheets
<jcater> true... of course, that's left up to the end developers
<mdean> it will be a very powerful base tool
<mdean> ja
<mdean> then all you need is a wysiwyg designer for creating your xslt
<jcater> that's a great idea
<jcater> I hope someone else volunteers to do it though :)
<mdean> hehe
<mdean> I can do a web version
<jcater> you are one sick and twisted man :)
<jcater> j/k
<mdean> I've picked up quite a bit of DOM, JavaScript, CSS, and XSLT the last few weeks - it really isn't that bad if you target DOM browsers
<jcater> cool
<mdean> I learned it all building a layout editor @ work - drag-n-drop and the whole bit
<jcater> using a web browser?
<mdean> yup
<jcater> impressive
<mdean> it'll kick arse when it's done
<jbailey> XSLT is wonderful, if you like functional programming languages. =)  Recurssion, sweet recurssion. =)
<mdean> .....must......recurse.......recurse.......recurse......
<derek> hmmm
<derek> the problem i see is i think integrator should be more what you are trying to do with reports
<derek> reports should be a bit more structured
<derek> as you do NOT want to have to scan them multiple times to do things
<derek> as you need them to be 'fast'
<derek> if you have to run 3 stylesheets on a report your dead
<derek> im already thinking having to do one transformation even in memory might make us too slow
<derek> for example on month close at the county
<derek> over 5000 reports are generated
<jcater> reports does what it needs to do in one pass... but like you I'm concerned about the transforms
<jcater> (speed wise)
<jcater> (not functionality :)
<derek> i crap you not some departments had to have their 'monthly' reports delivered on pallets before we went to digitally storing the output
<derek> so i think there is HUGE value in flexible data out
<derek> but i think that belongs in integrator not reports
<derek> i think that reports should have a nice structured set of reporting tags to build templates
<derek> and that is how the data comes out the back
<derek> with same structured tags
<derek> this way transformations are straightforward
<derek> and shouldnt need to be much in way of overhead
<derek> there was talk at one time that reports and integrator seemed to be kind of the same thing
<derek> as i think people were thinking reports would have define anything coming out the back
<derek> which to me i dont think is the 'proper' or most 'efficient' way but what do i know :)
<derek> i think they should be two separate products 
<derek> even if they share some code :)
<jcater> I think gnue will have it's own set of structured tags... but I don't plan on "hard-coding" that in reports in case others can use reports in ways we didn't imagine (this doesn't add any overhead, btw)  I do plan on designer only working w/GNUe's set of tags, however.
<derek> im not proposing we hard code anything
<jcater> I think we are agreeing w/each other, derek :)
<jcater> btw, I hope we can reuse the engine portion of reports w/integrator
<jcater> at least parts of it
<derek> me too
<derek> like you wouldnt believe
<reinhard> night all
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<dtm> hi all
<dtm> so is anyone set to run the gnue booth at ALS or am I the only candidate?  i see no reason why i can't be there.
<jcater> I can't be in California
<jcater> I think you are it 
<jcater> coolness
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<dneighbo> any kernel fellows here?
<dneighbo> debian wont install for me 
<dneighbo> it seems to hang on a floppy disk detection
<dneighbo> but i dont know how to override it :(
<dneighbo> suppose i could just remove teh floppy disk for now :)
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<dneighbo> its amazing debian has users
<dneighbo> #debian is full of pricks
<dneighbo> unhelpful ones at that
<jbailey> I've gotten useful here there once.. =)
<jbailey> What do you need?
<jbailey> (I just can't wait until people start going there and asking Hurd questions..)
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<dtm> dneighbo: hi
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--- Sun Oct 14 2001