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<perlh> hi SachaS
<perlh> how are u
<perlh> hi derek
<perlh> how are u 
<dtm> hi perlh
<dtm> how are you
<dtm> xchat wont let me type 'u'
<dtm> how are you
<dtm> wow.
<dtm> what ridiculous crap.
<dtm> :)
<perlh> hi dtm
<perlh> fine
<perlh> thanx
<dtm> great
<perlh> :)
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<dneighbo> thierry : sometime we will have to talk so you can help me get popy working
<dneighbo> btw: it looks like you depend on mxDateTime which has a less than stellar license (or so it appeared to me)
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<jcater> howdy
<dneighbo> howdy
<dneighbo> jcater you use dcl right
<jcater> yes
<dneighbo> mind me asking how you guys do a few things?
<dneighbo> there are some things i like about dcl but some things im thinking could be better, but maybe im just not using it optimally :)
<jcater> ok
<jcater> well, I have to "work-around"
<jcater> since we are an internal department
<jcater> our "product" is "IT" 
<jcater> and our "accounts" are the various departments
<jcater> (accounting, sales, etc)
<jcater> but that works for us
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<jcater> did I lose you?
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<dneighbo> yes im here now though
<dneighbo> yes i think dcl needs to do one or two things in that respect
<dneighbo> things like ticket/workorder/account/product
<dneighbo> should have 'dynamic' naming
<dneighbo> as your 'product' is really a 'service'
<dneighbo> our workorders are called 'service requests'
<dneighbo> believe it or not i was told no dcl cause it was 'work orders'
<dneighbo> a grep and replace fixed that :)
<dneighbo> we now have dcl that has 'service requests'
<dneighbo> or SRs vs WOs
<dneighbo> the one that is killing me is
<dneighbo> project vs SR w/ seq
<dneighbo> im liking the idea of
<dneighbo> a project is multiple 'large tasks'
<dneighbo> an SR is a significant task
<dneighbo> then sequences are like the 'programmers to do'
<dneighbo> so for gnuef say
<dneighbo> 'rewrite UI system' might be a 'project'
<dneighbo> then it might have a few Work Orders of 
<dneighbo> doo foo
<dneighbo> do more foo
<dneighbo> then its up to the programmer assigned that work order
<dneighbo> if they want to add sequences of i need to do
<dneighbo> a. 
<dneighbo> b.
<dneighbo> c.
<dneighbo> to get more foo done
<dneighbo> so projects are for the 'high level manager'
<jcater> damn... reading back logs
<dneighbo> work orders for the 'direct manager'
<dneighbo> and sequences for the programmers
<jcater> yes, I agree on dynamic naming
<jcater> that was confusing us too
<jcater> and that's how I use projects vs wo w/sequences as well
<dneighbo> ok cool
<jcater> (projects are long-term, wo are specific groupings
<jcater> )
<dneighbo> then i assume you have same pet peeve as me
<dneighbo> that when you create a sequence
<dneighbo> it doesnt 'default' ANYTHING :(
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> i.e. 80% of time its going to be same account, customer, etc etc etc
<jcater> yip
<dneighbo> ok will bring this up to mdean :)
<dneighbo> just wanted to verify i wasnt using the systme in unnatural way and that it might be the cause of my pain :)
<jamest> what is dcl exactly
<dneighbo> project management
<dneighbo> plus bug tracking
<dneighbo> all rolled into one
<dneighbo> its rather nice
<dneighbo> well let me rephrase that
<dneighbo> its not 'bug tracking'
<dneighbo> its 'trouble tickets'
<dneighbo> if you wanted 'real bug trackign' you woudl need that as well
<dneighbo> but you coudl get the 'trouble tickets' and pump them into bug reports
<dneighbo> i REALLY want to setup on ash
<dneighbo> and implment for GNUe
<dneighbo> i think it would be SO helpful
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<jcater> dneighbo: I have no idea about your unnatural use of things
<jcater> anyone here subscribe to e-tailer's digest?
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<jcater> if not, I'd recommend it to anyone working heavily w/this project
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<dneighbo> hey the all return
<dneighbo> um stupid question
<dneighbo> but in gnu/linux how do you change your 'timezone'?
<jbailey> tzset
<jbailey> or /etc/timezone to make it permanent
<dneighbo> tzconfig
<dneighbo> seems to work
<dneighbo> on debian
<dneighbo> thank you :)
<jbailey> Ah, I had forgotten about tzconfig.  I just edit /etc/timezone by hand normally. =)
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<dneighbo> bookworm
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<dneighbo> jcater you used msn before right?
<dneighbo> could you get email from teh msn server?
<dneighbo> or i assume you never tried>?
<jcater> never tried
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<Mr_You> hmm.. if I don't have a desk job, I seem to work 2nd and 3rd shifts ;-)
<Mr_You> dev work that is
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<dneighbo> man openprojects is going down as often as often as windows NT box
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> did they "upgrade"?
<jcater> ya know, Win2K is capable of "five nines"
<jcater> (small print: when used w/special equipment under a consultants care w/extreme modifications)
<dneighbo> oh i assumed reliable to 5 9's was something else
<jcater> (read between the lines: Win2k is capable of 99.999% uptime when the computer is up and running correctly)
<dneighbo> 99.999% reliable
<dneighbo> with 99.999% of the time you can rely that if you are having issues a 'reboot' will fix it
<jcater> well, that's better than MS-Office
<jcater> when 99.999% of the time it crashes, a reinstall is necessary
<jcater> at least rebooting will fix the  OS :)
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<dneighbo> rofl
<Mr_You> the only thing that is going to hold back XP deployment is licensing issues
<jcater> if that
<jcater> if ppl are convinced that this is the way "it has to be"
<Mr_You> and integration cost
<Mr_You> the bottom line is that its the # of applications available for a platform.. most users don't care or even need to know whats going on behind the scenes
<dneighbo> Mr_You i disagree
<dneighbo> its 'perception' as much as anything
<dneighbo> i think there are more applications on linux than windows at this point
<dneighbo> and for no cost
<Mr_You> most modern GUIs are so similar the interface doesn't matter
<dneighbo> with star office
<dneighbo> i think the #1 application (productivity) is now parallel to office
<Mr_You> dneighbo: no way.. tons of Direct X games for one
<dneighbo> the only app i see missing in that space is somethign like exchange (groupware)
<dneighbo> Mr_You : im talking BUSINESS only
<dneighbo> not end user
<Mr_You> I'm not
<Mr_You> but even so
<dneighbo> end user to me is pretty near irrelevant
<dneighbo> in the grand scheme
<Mr_You> I don't see Photoshop for Linux yet..
<Mr_You> I don't see high end audio software
<dneighbo> as far as $$$
<dneighbo> microsoft makes little on its end user
<dneighbo> as oem sales are due to volume only not price
<dneighbo> (though they are trying to change that)
<dneighbo> gimp can do most of what photoshop can (via plugins)
<dneighbo> but is much more cumbersome to use
<Mr_You> if the Win32 API was open and implemented in other OSs this would not be an issue
<dneighbo> i see some high end audio software (but thats not very business)
<dneighbo> its a 'specific' application
<dneighbo> but i would say
<dneighbo> look at movie studios
<dneighbo> shall we say linux isnt good at imaging
<Mr_You> there's lots more end user apps for Windows than Linux
<dneighbo> it can only produce full length animations like the crappy quality of shrek?
<Mr_You> well look at it this way then..
<dneighbo> Mr_You : when i look at freshmeat or sourceforge
<dneighbo> i see over 15 to 20 thousand titles
<dneighbo> i dont see that when i walk in compusa
<dneighbo> and look at their selves
<dneighbo> shelves
<dneighbo> most of what is at compusa etc are games
<dneighbo> 4 years ago i would have agreed 1000 percent
<Mr_You> you see a future of Linux Desktops in the Business env. and Windows just maintaining home envs?  in a year or so, those business customers will have decided on an upgrade of their current 98/NT installs
<dneighbo> now i say its getting pretty even
<dneighbo> as to home vs business
<Mr_You> dneighbo: majority of those apps are still "techy" apps.. not for average user
<dneighbo> i think it will be easier to convert home users
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> only via OEM
<dneighbo> people wont rush out to get linux to 'upgrade'
<dneighbo> people would probably transition easily if their next pc shipped with windows
<dneighbo> i think businesses have harder time because they must ensure all the stuff they do is doable on linux
<dneighbo> but once they have done this
<dneighbo> its MUCH easier for them to actually upgrade
<dneighbo> and they have a MUCH higher motivation
<Mr_You> RIGHT!
<dneighbo> its called thier bottom line
<Mr_You> XP is fully compatible with all Win32 apps!
<Mr_You> the businesses current win32 apps
<dneighbo> well two things
<dneighbo> a. xp is VERY expensive upgrade
<dneighbo> b. i dont agree it runs all win32
<Mr_You> so eliminate a costly license and they are more willing to go there...
<dneighbo> i have a 32 app from 3rd party here
<dneighbo> that when i reported a problem on printing
<Mr_You> ok not all, but most
<dneighbo> their response is we are seeing this in our labs a LOT under XP
<dneighbo> and customers of 2000 are having this too
<Mr_You> so we agree, eliminate the license
<dneighbo> you must get newest print drivers to get it to not crash 
<Mr_You> hows that?
<Mr_You> what scenario where it crashes?
<Mr_You> we agree on (a) and (b), so eliminate the license and there's an incentive
<Mr_You> the only consistent crashes I've seen are when playing 3D games, it might just be my roommates machine..  but only seemed to happen after XP install
<dneighbo> Mr_You yes if xp had NO licensing or REASONABLE licensing
<dneighbo> i think it would seriously put linux at a disadvantage
<dneighbo> no argument there
<dneighbo> i do not see m$ fixing the licensing issues
<dneighbo> i only see them making them worse
<dneighbo> the other BIG BIG issue 
<dneighbo> has not do crashing
<dneighbo> or licensing 
<dneighbo> or money
<dneighbo> it has to do with freedom
<dneighbo> m$ is doing a lot of stuff in XP
<Mr_You> man people are dumb
<dneighbo> that violates the hell out of you as a user
<Mr_You> our country has been dumbed down
<dneighbo> from 'smart tags' to 'install locks' to you name it
<jcater> I don't think you will sell fredom to the average user
<dneighbo> but you are right most of them 'dont get it'
<dneighbo> so they easily would over look this
<dneighbo> THOUGH\
<dneighbo> i saw a special on our news the other night on XP
<Mr_You> people just want a good dog and pony show to make a decision on
<dneighbo> it was VERY VERY VERY interest
<dneighbo> a young woman went and tested what an XP upgrade meant
<dneighbo> she installed and used for like 2 weeks and did this report
<dneighbo> she said 
<dneighbo> a. its way more stable
<dneighbo> b. my applications seemed to work
<dneighbo> BUT then she dropped the bomb
<dneighbo> a. it didnt seem to do much of anything different than the last version other than not crash so much, its hard to justify 200 bucks for this one 'improvement'
<dneighbo> b. we noticed at install time that it FORCED us to register, noting that if we didnt register withing 30 days XP would STOP working
<dneighbo> she went on to say that the reason m$ said they wanted you to register was to stop 'piracy' and that she also noted the clause that mentioned the hell you have to go through to install on another pc if you wish to later
<dneighbo> she summed it up as
<dneighbo> '200 bucks for something barely noticeable and getting forced to do things i wouldnt do normally just left a bad taste in my mouth'
<dneighbo> - i vote dont upgrade
<dneighbo> mind you this was jane doe non techie news anchor
<dneighbo> i was about in shock
<dneighbo> as i expected this glowing review
<Mr_You> (b) is a big issue, but in response to (a), its more snappy and 2000 ("not as clunky") and the stability is worth it if you don't have a tweaked 98 install
<dneighbo> Mr_You im just giving you her opinion
<dneighbo> not mine :)
<Mr_You> I know
<Mr_You> also in response to (b), this is no different than most key based commercial software
<dneighbo> Mr_You not true
<dneighbo> microsoft used to be 'key based'
<dneighbo> key based means you simply provide a key
<dneighbo> registering means you give all your personal information
<dneighbo> ex: i go to store buy window 98 w/ cash
<dneighbo> and install at home
<dneighbo> no one can track i am running or purchased win98
<Mr_You> yes, a lot of commercial unix software requires a key based on hostid and possibly hostname and IP to create a key to enable the software
<dneighbo> i buy xp
<dneighbo> bring it home and give them my life in a file
<dneighbo> and now the whole world knows i own it
<jcater> dneighbo: I think requiring registration is more common w/commercial software than you realize
<dneighbo> (if microsoft wishes to, though microsoft or whole world, is there a difference)
<Mr_You> the "registration" occurs when you purchase the software
<Mr_You> or enable a key
<dneighbo> i distinguish against 'custom type software' and shrink wrap when talking commericial
<dneighbo> if we buy SAP
<dneighbo> yes SAP has my information
<dneighbo> if i buy large packages surely they have my info
<dneighbo> but if i buy quake or doom or quicken
<dneighbo> giving them my information is 'optional'
<Mr_You> shrink wrap?  I'm talking about business server applications
<dneighbo> or at least it was a year ago
<dneighbo> Mr_You in this case i think only shrink is relevant
<Mr_You> I see an OS license/registration equal to major application software
<Mr_You> SCO requires you to register to receive a key.
<jcater> yes it does
<dneighbo> well i disagree
<jcater> argh! it also does a network check
<dneighbo> in sense that its AUDIENCE that matters more than application
<jcater> to make sure a copy isn't running w/same key
<jcater> not that I'd ever do that :)
<Mr_You> dneighbo: its a major move yeah
<dneighbo> if im a corporation i expect to be a partner of my 'major applications' as they are key to my business at that point
<dneighbo> as a consumer i dont want my info in the hands of anyone :)
<Mr_You> hopefully they're downfall, but they can make changes quickly
<dneighbo> but regardless i think its evil wrong in ANY event
<dneighbo> im in no way sticking up for SAP or SCO or anyone that requires it
<dneighbo> but then again i like free software :)
<dneighbo> a good friend once put it rather succiently
<jcater> you terrorist!
<dneighbo> if it requires 'root' it, i require GPL
<Mr_You> it'll be a dream come true if Win32 or DirectX makes it to Linux
<dneighbo> his theory, if it needs god access to my machine, i damn well better be able to look at and modify the code
<Mr_You> or even better a Free API dominates
<dneighbo> SDL is coming along nicely in response to directX from what i hear
<dneighbo> but i dont have time for games :(
<Mr_You> I realize I don't do games all that often, but I DO want this new RedStorm Ghost Recon coming ot ;-))))
<dneighbo> i like the civ style games a lot
<dneighbo> thats why i dont have 'time' for games
<dneighbo> the ones i like take forever to play
<dneighbo> i still want to grab rollercoaster tycoon or simcoaster
<dneighbo> as well as the sims
<dneighbo> my wife put a moritorium on software purchases
<dneighbo> she says if im gonna be a linux nut
<dneighbo> i cant be a hypocrite
<dneighbo> and that if i preach free software we better not be buying any :)
<Mr_You> hahaha
<Mr_You> she doesn't use the computer much?  ;-)
<dneighbo> um yeah she does
<dneighbo> she is a 3 application gal though 
<dneighbo> 1. email
<dneighbo> 2. browser
<dneighbo> 3. pdf viewer
<Mr_You> yeah.. (more shoppin money for her ;-)
<Mr_You> I guess Evolution still has the library stability problems.. should be good one day I hope
<Mr_You> thats one groupware solution
<jcater> btw.. anyone here using gnucash fulltime?
<jcater> that's my only link at home w/windows is my MS-Money
<jcater> (which I have to admit I LOVE)
<dneighbo> um no
<dneighbo> it wont compile for me now :(
<dneighbo> dependency HELL
<dneighbo> gnucash1.5.2 worked fine, i had running from source even
<dneighbo> gnucash1.6.x hell
<dneighbo> and lots of people complaining
<dneighbo> the answer
<jcater> I guess I could use GNUe :)
<dneighbo> run debian unstable or rh7.1 and you wont have as many issues
<jcater> argh!
<dneighbo> i ahve a debian unstable at home now, but havent played with gnucash on it
<jcater> so now I have to change my OS to run an app
<dneighbo> i have tried 4 times now to switch every time something major happens
<jcater> well
<jcater> as dependent as I am on that kind of software, maybe I shouldn't switch yet
<jcater> does it print on check stock?
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<neilt> hello all
<dneighbo> jcater i believe it does
<jcater> neilt: howdy
<jcater> dneighbo: I may try it out
<jcater> it might not work for my home finances, but gosh darn-it, it can run my cash register
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> took me a minute
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<jcater> welcome back
Action: Mr_You &
<dneighbo> be back soon
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<jcater> howdy chillster
<chillywilly> hi
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<jcater> later
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Action: chillywilly is building gnu tools for 68HC11 and 68HC12 :)
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<chillywilly> hehe, a little fish swam across my screen
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<chillywilly> run!
<javaguy> What?!
<javaguy> CW...a little birdie told me you were in charge of GEAS...
<chillywilly> er?!?
<chillywilly> what birdie is that?
<chillywilly> 3 of us hack on it...I haven't in a long while though
<ajmitch> hehe, chillywilly in charge?
<chillywilly> reinhard is senior to me though and I would consider him the GEAS masta
<chillywilly> not me
<javaguy> jbailey (I think...may have been Jason)
<javaguy> hmmm...reinhard's not here, so...
<chillywilly> well reinhard and neilt both are before me in the pecking order
<chillywilly> :P
<javaguy> I'm looking at writing a JDBC driver for GEAS
<chillywilly> well, if you have a question I can help
<chillywilly> ok
<javaguy> What I need to do is:
<javaguy> establish a connection
<chillywilly> what we really need ideally s a our own db abstraction layer as we have since given up on libGDA
<chillywilly> but you can hack a driver into the existing stuff too
<chillywilly> all of GNUe needs a commo db abstraction layer
<javaguy> perform queries that return ResultSets
<chillywilly> common
<javaguy> and perform updates/inserts
<javaguy> how does GEAS do things right now?
<chillywilly> it has several modules
<chillywilly> objectstore is the db layer
<chillywilly> objectcache is the cache
<chillywilly> then you have the parser
<chillywilly> then the corba interface
<chillywilly> to the objects
<chillywilly> all biz object use the same interface
<chillywilly> objects
<javaguy> does GEAS use TCP/IP and/or sockets to accept outside connections, or is it all done through CORBA?
<chillywilly> only CORBA interface
<chillywilly> working on being communication independent
<chillywilly> basically we are slowly rewriting GEAS so it makes sense to us
<ajmitch> hehehe
<chillywilly> it was andrewm's baby for so long
<chillywilly> no one knows what was going on in his head
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> not sure if I wanna know either
<chillywilly> brb
<javaguy> CW: you know anything about gdbc (just saw it on subversions) ?
<chillywilly> wassat?
<chillywilly> gnu db connectivity?
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<javaguy> was kinda hoping you would know...
<chillywilly> download it
<chillywilly> give it a looksee
<javaguy> This is goofey...dozens of IDE's available for both Linux and Windows, and still can't find any like better than vi...
<chillywilly> emacs!!!
<chillywilly> ;P
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<chillywilly> GDBC is the Generic Database Connector. It is a small library used to provide generic SQL backend connectivity to programs, similar to ODBC.
Action: jcater prefers "cat >> file.c"
<jcater> :)
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<chillywilly> ed is da best damn editor on the planet
<chillywilly> ello derek
<derek> um yeah and 'i like to get trout slapped'
<javaguy> hello derek
<derek> hi javaguy
<jcater> chillywilly: anything special I need to do to run geas outta the CVS dirs?
Action: chillywilly trout slaps derek
<derek> mmmmmmm mmmmmmmmm good
<derek> nutin' like a good ole trout slap to keep ya goin'
<chillywilly> just have your config setup correctly to create iro file, etc. in ./
<chillywilly> s/iro/ior
<javaguy> CW: emacs ain't bad.  It just feels so klunky compared to modern apps
<derek> javaguy: ?
<derek> if you consider not using a mouse klunky :)
<derek> normally i would agree but for text editing
<derek> there isnt much 'frill' you need
<chillywilly> javaguy: not emacs 21
<chillywilly> emacs 21 is sexy
<javaguy> Nah.  I do that with vi all the time
<javaguy> I consider having to memorize off the wall colors like salmon and light steel blue
Action: chillywilly is proficient in both though
<javaguy> in order to set up a decent display as klunky
<chillywilly> pffft, lame
<derek> hh?
<derek> huh?
<chillywilly> who would use such gay colors anyway :P
<derek> chillywilly: gay developers?
<chillywilly> javaguy: are you gay?
<chillywilly> j/k
<derek> chillywilly: he seems happy to me
Action: chillywilly does know of a gay vegan weirdo
<chillywilly> who hangs out on OPN
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<jcater> mdean!
<chillywilly> howdy mdean
<mdean> guten abend
<derek> jcater: i have him tied down in #dcl join me there if you wish to get in on the torture :)
<derek> guter tag
<chillywilly> lkjhasd'
<chillywilly> dhaksjdhkjh
<jcater> you dun gotten dabends?
<javaguy> CW: No, I'm not gay ;)
<chillywilly> I was kidding
<javaguy> I kinda picked up on that... ;)
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<javaguy> hey James.  You get cygwin running Ok?
<jamest_> haven't tried yet
<jamest_> thanks for the mail
<javaguy> No problem
<jamest_> the main problems I'd have though
<jamest_> we're the setup system would fail over and over
<jamest_> we're = were 
<javaguy> haven't had that problem, so can't really address
<javaguy> you are using a recent setup.exe?
<jamest_> recent at that time
<jamest_> I finally gave up 
<javaguy> I installed 1.3.3-2 yesterday with no problems...
<jamest_> i might try again sometime
Action: javaguy is running KDE on his Win2k laptop
<jamest_> that would be sweat
<jamest_> sweet
<jamest_> :)
<javaguy> gotta love that detailed documentation...
<javaguy> jdbcCompliant()
<javaguy> Reports whether this driver is a genuine JDBC COMPLIANT(TM) driver
<chillywilly> we can't have that now
Nick change: javaguy -> jgDinner
Action: jgDinner is away: I'm busy
<derek> i had problems with setup
<derek> others here told me i was dumb
<derek> and we should have as a dependency
Nick change: derek -> dnAway
<chillywilly> better run away
<chillywilly> don't put words into "others" mouths
<chillywilly> being cursed and being dumb are not the same thing :P
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<chillywilly> hey dave
<dyfet> hi
<dyfet> oh i have some news...
<chillywilly> yes?
<chillywilly> a bayonne release?
<dyfet> No, another trip to europe
Action: chillywilly saw it on LinuxToday
<dyfet> I think I already mentioned the release here :)
<chillywilly> well I wasn't aroun for that
<chillywilly> around
<dyfet> If anyone missed it though there was the 0.7 release...
<dyfet> But my news is about Linux Kongress...
<chillywilly> what is that?
<dyfet> I was invited there to speak next month
<dyfet> Do you mean, chilly, "what is Linux Kongress?"
<chillywilly> yes
<dyfet> Okay, every year for 8 years there has been a Linux Kongress, usually held in Germany
<chillywilly> oh
<dyfet> I think historically they were originally a european Linux kernel developers meeting
<dyfet> They are now a more general purpose event and include exhibition space...kind of a mini-trade show/conference wrapped into one
<dyfet> of course now that they have moved passed being a kernel developers conference, perhaps they should change their name to GNU/Linux Kongress :)
<chillywilly> heh, like that'll happen
<dyfet> This year they are holding it in the Netherlands...
<chillywilly> the Linux kernel is not very sexy
<chillywilly> however, the Hurd rocks my socks
<dyfet> Then there should be a hurd kongress?
<dyfet> :)
<chillywilly> some hurd guys were at LSM
<chillywilly> Marcus and Neal
<chillywilly> whoever else showed up..
<dyfet> Hmm...there was a hurd meeting at LSM, I recall
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<chillywilly> funny thing is they are now trying to move file systems etc. into use space, which the Hurd has had from day 1
Nick change: jgDinner -> javaguy
<javaguy> bak
<chillywilly> oh no
<javaguy> oh yes
<chillywilly> nooooo
Action: javaguy really wishes Java implemented unless
<chillywilly> unless?
<javaguy> Yeah.  In perl, you have if, which does what you would expected it to do
<javaguy> There's also unless, which only runs the associated block if the expression evaluates to false
<javaguy> example:
<javaguy> die sprintf("Only lusers run %s", $^O) unless $^O eq 'Linux';
<chillywilly> that's pointless
<javaguy> Far from it.  It makes for code that flows very nicely
<javaguy> there's also until (opposite of while)
<chillywilly> but you can ust use "not"
<javaguy> sure you can, should you be so inclined
<javaguy> not sure why you would want to...
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<chillywilly> netsplit
<javaguy> Let me guess...farmer.openprojects.net just went down?
<chillywilly> netsplit
<chillywilly> the bane of ir
<chillywilly> irc
<javaguy> CW: I'm looking to establish a connection to a GEAS server.  Which IDL file should I be looking in?
<javaguy> netsplit?
<chillywilly> ya when an irc server disconnects from the network
<chillywilly> ummmm
<chillywilly> connection.idl
<javaguy> I looked in there.  It defines a Connection class, but not how to get one in the first place
<chillywilly> the factory
<chillywilly> try:
<chillywilly>    import CORBA
<chillywilly>    CORBA._load_idl("../../idl/geas.idl")
<chillywilly>    # import GEAS
<chillywilly>    from GEAS import *
<chillywilly>    import GEAS
<chillywilly> except ImportError,ex:
<chillywilly>    print "Failed to load CORBA module."
<chillywilly>    print "Please see http://sourceforge.net/projects/orbit-python for the required python CORBA bindings"
<chillywilly>    sys.exit(0)
<chillywilly> try:
<chillywilly>    orb = CORBA.ORB_init( () , "orbit-local-orb" )
<chillywilly>    ior = open("../../src/geas-server.ior").readline()
<chillywilly>    factory = orb.string_to_object(ior)
<chillywilly>    print "Connecting..."
<chillywilly>    con = factory.guestLogin()
<chillywilly>    print "Got GEAS.Connection object"
<chillywilly> python code
<chillywilly> geas/examples/python/schema.py is helpful
<javaguy> Ok.  So I need to initiate from IOR.
<chillywilly> you know python right?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> Initial Object reference
<javaguy> Just enough to be dangerous... ;)
<chillywilly> Java has its own python stuff
<chillywilly> er, corba
<javaguy> Is this the preferred method for remote connections as well?
<javaguy> Yeah.  It's a superset of RMI
<javaguy> Or at least it was the last time I looked.  It's been a while...
<chillywilly> I am not sure what andrewm, et. al. did for remote connections
<chillywilly> proably copied the IOR file....most recent corba uses corba:// protocol
<javaguy> I imagine most of the time you're going to have a central GEAS server with clients connecting from off-site
<chillywilly> yes
<javaguy> I'm not familiar with that.  I'm assuming we will be using IIOP for the immediate future
<javaguy> both for backwards compatibility, and because I'm prettu certain Java doesn't implement this corba interface
<chillywilly> IIOP is used translarently from orb ot orb
<javaguy> though I could be wrong
<chillywilly> transparently
<chillywilly> there are some docs in geas/doc
<chillywilly> scattered about
<javaguy> From what I understand, so long as I can access the IOR, say over http or ftp, things should work the same whether the client and server are on the same machine or not
<chillywilly> one of these days will will have a users guide and a hackers guide
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> you could have the ior hosted on a web site
<chillywilly> or ftp
<chillywilly> etc.
<chillywilly> there's no real security in GEAS
<chillywilly> btw
<chillywilly> or locking
<javaguy> beag a beag...
<chillywilly> beag?
<chillywilly> also bad methods can crash the server
<javaguy> scots gaelic.  It means 'little by little'
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: javaguy is browsing through the GEAS FAQ
<chillywilly> doc/internal/CORBA.txt is helpful
<chillywilly> I think what we really wanna do is use an RBAC security mechanism
<chillywilly> Rle Based Access Control
<javaguy> I'm guessing we don't have a GEAS server running on goats to play with^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htest on
<chillywilly> Role
<chillywilly> not reight now, but at one time there was
<javaguy> Sounds cool...and complicated
<chillywilly> jsut compile it and start it up
<chillywilly>  can give you a config that will let you run it out of cvs
<chillywilly> dir
<javaguy> That would be a good start.  Also, will need to test on a remote system.  Maybe will run the server my Linux PC and the client on my wife's Wintel box...
<chillywilly> I should take all those notes and compile the GEAS Hackers Guide or something so that it makes sense to me better too ;)
<javaguy> 'makes sense to me better'?
<javaguy> You from Pennsylvania, CW?
<chillywilly> you're gonna critique my ebglish now?
<chillywilly> english
Action: chillywilly is in Wisconsin
<javaguy> Nah.  My wife talks like that.  She's from PA
<chillywilly> I usually don't say things like that
<chillywilly> it is abad english :P
<chillywilly> Ia m tired though
<chillywilly> am
<javaguy> 'salright ;)
<chillywilly> I wold normally say 
<chillywilly> "so it makes more sen to me too"
<chillywilly> sense
<chillywilly> I need a soda
<chillywilly> where do you live javaguy?
<jcater> On the island of Java?
<chillywilly> er?
<jcater> (surely that's it as NO ONE uses the programming language by the same name :)
<javaguy> Columbus, OH
<chillywilly> jcater: hehe
<chillywilly> python OO is lacking a bit for my tastes though
<chillywilly> there's no static or protection mechanisms....you can violate encapsulation
<javaguy> both are an improvement over C++ though... ;)
<chillywilly> nah
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> C++ is groovy
<jcater> I personally like python and it's lack of enforcements
<jcater> it makes you program correctly :)
<chillywilly> what?
<chillywilly> how does that happen?
<jcater> programming correctly?
<jcater> you never seen that?
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> how do you implement a Singleton in python?
<jcater> self.__init__(self)
<jcater> self.__dict__ = singletonmaster.__dict__
<chillywilly> you can friggin do var = Class () as many times as you want
<chillywilly> how do you keep ppl form screwing with the object's data that you don't want touched? You can't force them to use a method
<chillywilly> don't get me wrong python is pretty cool, but it is nor better OO-wise than any other half-baked implementation....just look at PHP same crap there too
<mdean> Python has better OO than PHP
<chillywilly> ya, but I don't think it goes far enough
<javaguy> CW: is there a default location for the GEAS IOR? (e.g., /etc/geas/ior.txt)
<chillywilly> look in the exampe config
<chillywilly> example
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<chillywilly> # where to publish server details
<chillywilly> # default is in /usr/local/var/run
<chillywilly> # for current demos, leave in 'src' dir
<chillywilly> pidfile ./geas-server.pid
<chillywilly> iorfile ./geas-server.ior
<chillywilly> ${prefix}/var/run
<javaguy> Hmm...I think I'll just require them to pass it as part of the URL
<javaguy> I was contemplating making connect() a little more user-friendly
<javaguy> I think that can wait for a later release
<chillywilly> in GEAS?
<javaguy> No, in the JDBC driver
<chillywilly> oh
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--- Thu Oct 18 2001