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SachaHome (sacha@chime-a-68.conceptual.net.au) left #gnuenterprise (Client Exiting). perlh (a@202.9.144.242) left irc: Ping timeout for perlh[202.9.144.242] perlh (a@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. perlh (a@202.9.144.242) left irc: [x]chat perlh (a@202.9.144.242) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (jbailey@65.93.1.181) joined #gnuenterprise. perlh (a@202.9.144.242) left #gnuenterprise. jcater_ (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. argh! jcater! what are you doing here? Action: jbailey is away: Lunch ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.37) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry (thierry@router.mixad.it) left irc: [x]chat hi all reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est. -- Aurelius Augustinus dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ah snap, two jcater's, there goes the neighborhood dneighbo: can you kick jcater off? I don't think he slept last night rofl Nick change: dneighbo -> derek #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ hmmm crap getting help from chanserv flood's bitchx and /kick doesnt seem to work oh well wanna hear something funny? sure you know all the krispie kreme's I had Friday btw: you still have url to evil women? well, the wife worked late yip and guess what she brought me to make up for it? rofl i had kk this weekend myself what's really funny is I left 4 for breakfast Sat morning but we woke up Saturday and our son had sugar all over him and no donuts in sight hmm like father like son eh I kinda miss the cast :) yip Nick change: jcater_ -> jcLunch Action: jbailey is back (gone 01:48:07) hi jbailey heya derek ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.37) left irc: Client Exiting Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater_ jcater: go away! we don't want you here jcater_ where did you get your 21 inch and how much did you pay for it my monitor finally crapped on me as the ones im seeing are like 500 and up my 21 inch is from Dell (it's a Dell-branded Sony Trinitron) I got it in a package deal with a computer. Action: derek thinks will have to get another dumb 17 ah The 20 inch refurbished Trinitron I use at home I got from egghead for $160 hmm egghead eh www.egghead.cm? er com i dont mind refurbished if it has a warranty of at least like a year sorry... 90 days hmmm for 160 i would risk it :) http://www.egghead.com/ShowPage.dll?page=prod_page_p&ItemEDP=95799 jamest on vacation today? hope he isn't sick and really hope they didn't pin that "missing luser" on him... that could mean big trouble rofl i dont know havent seen him i was w/o computer most of weekend w/ down monitor and too lazy to reboot laptop after church on sunday plus with diamondbacks on all weekend honey do's out the ying yang and daughters party with faily i had no chance :) er family jcater_ that egghead deal looks to good, what gives? dunno been using that monitor for close to 2 months and quality good? doesnt like hum or throw heat like nuts? there is a small hum i think thats probably normal man 21" i might be in heaven it is only .28 pitch though but the pictures come out crystal clear makes KDE look pretty darn good (and Shrek never looked so good :) Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) joined #gnuenterprise. im an ididot when it comes to hardware how bad is .28 pitch Action: derek thought that was pretty normal for such a big monitor, I think that's fine btw: 160 + 9.95 shipping is about insane :) yes I'm ordering one for my mother :) I'm not kidding i have one all cued up im just getting wife's approval and then pulling the trigger how 'big' is it? it's big Action: derek isnt too concerned as i have helluva deskspace but i might get two of them :) get a little dual head action going on :) rofl break my 'laptop' dependency one note: the cable is for a Sun station doh but they include an adapter to make it SVGA but just so you know sweet so adapter is included? if your PC is only 1" from the wall it won't fit yes actually that is so kick butt as if i ever pick up a sun box (likely) then i have a monitor that would work with it :) yip well got the green light Action: derek beams down a 21 monitor baby :) Action: derek hopes jamest doestn read todays log :) jcater_ mucho gracias on the tip yip thinking about a 3rd one myself im tempted to get another one but will wait for the first one and evaluate first and see if will fit out for wife to use Action: jcater_ really wants a refurbished sun to connect to the monitor :) I've been meaning to pickup an old mainframe but wife isn't too keen on the idea I said we could live with a twin bed and no bedroom furniture egghead went bankrupt and is selling assests to frys hardware eh odd but she likes the king size bed yes Weird. egghead went bankrupt here like 6 or 7 years ago. jcater my wife is coupon queen i think she may have scoured up a 5% off egghead orders to boot :) cool I've never seen an egghead coupon neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.68.124.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ jcater_ (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Ping timeout for jcater_[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net] dang coupon expired oh well neilt (neilt@dialup-166.90.68.124.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: jcater how long did it take for that monitor to ship? they say the try to ship same day if possible, im assuming 7 - 10 business days? jcater_ (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. derek: I got my monitor within 7 days jcater_ (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Ping timeout for jcater_[w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net] bth (wluijk@ab-4f82.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl) joined #gnuenterprise. bth (wluijk@ab-4f82.mxs.adsl.euronet.nl) left #gnuenterprise. jcater_ cool beans im hoping it will be before next monday or next monday as im vacation tuesday evening through the follwoing monday and i REALLY dont want them leaving it out front :) jcater_ (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. damn XO derek: if you are concerned about delivery you can have it delivered to my house Then someone can sign for it :) wtf? vacation? chillywilly (danielb@d73.as5.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. i know i know vacation, very very evil i promise they are kidnapping me its non voluntary um sure i believe they are even severing all my connections to my virtual world for more than 24 hours (like 5 days) what?!? believe me, vacation im cool with, no connection to net for more than 24hr they might have to hospitalize me from withdrawl symptoms rofl sklein (sklein@1Cust186.tnt22.tco2.da.uu.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi sklein hi derek been real busy. still busy. lots of advocacy stuff cool fighting DMCA, UCITA, SSSCA hopefully advocationg that our rights dont get demolished in the name of 'war on terrorism' ah yes DMCA, UCITA and SSSCA are valuable wars too made an informal pitch for GNUe at the AFFECT meeting (anti-UCITA coalition) also atttended the RMS/Eben Moglen speech at GWU ..at which point they escorted you out for speaking such blasphemy.. :) ah did you get to meet rms or eben? both GWU? did you mention gnue :) George Washington Univ Action: derek is curious as to how RMS reacted if you did sklein: ooooh, Tony was there too right? I don't recall mentioning it to him Action: chillywilly wanted to go to that badly as RMS spent two weeks here before going there and well, we had some 'disagreements' on things :) BTW, Guido was there too heh cause you are a closet Open Sourcer that's why Action: chillywilly runs yes i heard he egged on RMS a bit a bit what did he do? basically asked him to close the divide Moglen's speech was much better than RMS's i.e. stop the us them mentality open source vs free (iirc) Moglen closed the divide in his speech. quoted ESR l. lessig wasnt there was he? no not that I know I mentioned lessig in my question from the audience, I think :) btw: chilly i am not a closet 'open sourcer' but rather Richard Stallman said, "Emacs 21 is a big step forward in our long-term plan to take Emacs from a programmable text editor to a programmable word processor." a 'practical free softwarer' heh, sure whatever you say dude hmm, do we really want a word processor? ;) RMS said (if I understood him) that he could place a bright line between regular and embedded s/w. I need to point him to Cem Kaner's papers on the subject that say its impossible open sourcers ignore 'ethics and morals' in favor of practically without regard do you really think I need a definition? i think my position says be practical but NEVER at the loss of morality/ethics I've had that debate with RMS, and I disagree with him on the ethics issue which is RMS' view the difference is where RMS and I draw the line example: for gnue i think its ONLY ethical to compare gnue to non free software, i.e. explain where its better and where its worse in comparission to ALL its competitors RMS feels noting non free software is PROMOTING it and thus we can never discuss our product in relation to others RMS is a purist i think as long as the point is made that there is DANGER in using non free software its ok to discuss free software w/ non free software if you make it clear whats free and whats not I wrote the article for the Columbia MD business monthly that pointed out the issues I gave RMS and Eben Moglen copies chillywilly also i feel the 'approach' of the FSF is wrong, but its 'message' is right i.e. attend a linux tradeshow hmm let's form a coup not this again hear them berate users and smash them etc and its rather sad they turn people off and then their message is not heard I need to work up a synopsis of Moglen's speech plus my own comments. He had a very interesting perspective that I couldn't find on his web site i like to relate this to religion say christianity, it could be viewed as a great message by some but if your first experience to it is someone throwing a bible at you and screaming, you are going to hell repent or die die die He pointed out that under elementary economics the long term price of a commodity is the margnial production cost you probably wouldnt give it much of chance the marginal production cost of s/w is near zero yip you should talk to bob chassell on it that's the cost of the next copy if you like the economic approach anyone know how to geta Rage Fury Maxx working under GNU/Linux? he has been with FSF since the start and has masters in economics from cambridge university (england) my buddy has one and the thing locks up all the time with xf4.1.x according to Steve Chow, one of his partners wrote the first GPL draft Steve is one of the AFFECT lawyers and an NCCUSL commissioner from Massachusetts thinking of tryint o get it to work with VESA frame buffer device he voted against UCITA in the committee cool we need ALL the help we can get the problem is our congress just isnt technically astute and they have NO idea what they are really doing (AFFECT is mostly lawyers and lobbyists) I'm one of the only techies they pass bills because those that are putting someone in their ear, make them sound like good legislations congress ppl are bought, it is that simple chillywilly i think there is a fair amount of buying going on derek: tell me about it! one of my action items is an IEEE position statement on the role of engineers in setting public policy the big fat caorporations have them in their back pocket BUT i also believe they know stupid legislation makes it harder to get re elected One of my colleagues wrote an article titled "dumb and dumber" in case of technology, i think its a LOT less a case of being bought as much as it as them not UNDERSTANDING what they are really doing you know SSSCA is being proposed by that SC congressman who was basically bought by Disney they are clueless yes the big corporations PROPOSE and DRAFT the stuff for them for selfish reasons Disney and Fox but i think the congress members really believe they are doing something for the good of the people I think what Noam Chomsky said lately goes to the root of the matter IEEE-USA wrote a letter opposing it im not making excuses for them btw ppl need to get out their and be accountable for their gov't what did Chomsky say? just stating its a shame that as we get more and more technical the more and more screwed we can expect to be screwed we also wrote a letter on the anti terrorism stuff what is it gonna take for ppl to give a crap about politics? well its a two fold problem chillywilly chillywilly: good question 1. people generallly dont vote or dont make an effort 2. people in mass generally are no more clued than congress on technology so even if 100% people voted "the price of freedom is eternal vigelence" if they all just looked at what the legislators viewed they woudld probably agree its good stuff and vote for it too very few people understand a lot of this stuff and with legislators, everything needs to be reduced to words of one syllable on one page On UCITA, NCCUSL putit out without taking it to the American Bar Assn, like they were supposed to what i find interesting is 'qualifications' example: in arizona most of our 'reps' are either sons of wealthy people or made money in real estate but have no real 'qualifications' per say on anything That started an uproar and there is a meeting next month with NCCUSL and the ABA now im not advocating one must be a lawyer or a college grad or anything to be a congress member they should have some technical background too :P AFFECT and others (including me) put in amendments for NCCUSL to consider, mostly to show the ABA how bad the legislation is but when i look at legislation (and i think im fairly well read and educated) i half the time cant tell what the hell the 'real' ramifications of something is we used to be a govt by the people for the people nobody can now its a govt by the people for the corporations its like writing guaranteed good software the congress folks are not writing this stuff lawyers from lobbyists etc are well, the issue of campaign contributions is something and they are just pushing it through derek: well, corporations are legal entities.. don't they have rights? :) it used to be that politics waqs grassroot now they have TV and consultants. The grassroots are ignored they use PR to kill grassroots movements The AFFECT people are mostly corporate lobbyists their corporations are screwed by UCITA http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/prnation.html your most paranoid fantasies aren't even close to reality I told them GNUe was their best way out "Corporations, governments, and special interest groups spend at least 30 billion dollars annually --exclusively, to fuck with you." well, derek, not much progress on development from me, such as the menu system I've been going full blast on a lot of areas, but haven't had time for coding or designing When I summarize Moglen's speech and add my comments on it, I will provide it to you got to get going soon jcater_ absolutely corporations should have 'rights' i just dont think they should be in the 'legislation' business so in a sense, i suppose perhaps i view they shouldnt have rights or at least not equal rights There is an old saying "nobody's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session". so corporations and everyone else needs to keep an eye on what's happening :) my problem is it was created to be a system of equals unfortunately corporations have a DISTINCT upper hand there's nothing inherently wrong with lobbying my voice PALES in comparission to say disney's not when you join with other voices in fact several hundred thousand voices pale in comparission to most corporations not necessarily true i just think that corporations have no place in legislation they got TONS of cash that is the problem way i see it is if the 'people' screwed corporations so be it i.e. i think its hard for people to hurt corporations too much as doing so would hurt thier way of life and lively hood I agree we do not need to be driven by corporate needs, but by the needs of the ppl and freedoms that ppl should have BUT i think its VERY easy for corporations to screw the people way i see it is if a 'president' michael eisner wants to make legislation he should do so like other people have to he should NOT be able to use disney dollars well, I dunno pplk can just not buy their crap....even if you have to scarifice some....hell I am willing to do that he should have to use his own and not use disney resources etc etc etc to help level the playing field I agree as im sure most DISNEY employees agree with what is proposed :) NCS is notorious for that (as small as we are, we are represented fairly strongly at the Southern Governers Board) (all because of our strongly republican CEO) :) i just dont think the fore fathers really thought of this stuff ahh but they did because the local iron shop wasnt exactly a power house you iknow :) read the Federalist papers the whole checks and balances thing is based on balancing the effect of private interests who will try to get their way things are far more honest now than they were 100 years ago people bought Cuban bonds and then tried to get the US to go to war with Cuba to make the bonds worth something I think US is in a state of corporate instead of political tyranny....same situation though as what we had a revolution over US commits terrorist acts all the time ya know...that was also in Chomsky's speech In the impeachment of Andrew Johnson, some votes were based on influencing the outcome of bets chillywilly: I dunno about that... at least you can criticize the current situation without (much) fear of retribution chillywilly: I do agree w/the US committing terrorism though well, I disagree with Chomsky on that jcater_: sure they aren't going to kill you, but they will use PR and money to squash you dead your movement anyway chillywilly: no, I mean YOU you are free to say these things right for now :) yes, not all our freedoms are taken away true unless you are a "terrorist" in another week you could be deemed a terrorist for saying such things oh, wait... we are DMCA is not infrgining on Free speech? then your phone etc will be bugged and who knows what happens is code speech? i dont think code is speech really some courts do its not that 'simple' artists are allowed to paint things aren't they? whatever they want that is no what can't they paint? copyrighted or trademarked works unless it's fair use example: sexual acts w/children movies DMCA == fair use killer which it mostly is every time they show a 'coke' can in a movie they ahve to get permission from coca cola etc movies are 'art' coke probably pays to get it in there um yes and no ok, but what if they said oh hey you cannot paint anything blue, would that be a violation of free speech? historically the movie had to pay coke it's called product placement now i think in popular movies they do the 'co branding' thing and work it out I have the patent on blue! weee! some people in Australia are patenting phone numbers and IP addresses does free speech always literally mean speech? i dont think it always means 'speech' or can it means various expressions of work, etc.