[00:01] Last message repeated 1 time(s). AAAAAHHHHHHHH!@#)(@){9 << tension breaker >> ajmitch: hi VOYAGER'S ON!!! someone plz kill me I need the insurance money ;) I hate everything women are really really really stubborn aren't they? gah! they NEVER listen!!! I think I am going to get rid of my significant other and geta dog at least they are happy all the time.... woman == never happy NEVER!! ever dude I think I am just going to go find my own desert island and live there all alone I don't need anybody I don;t need a computer either hmmm chillywilly: dont worry dan. sweet sweet, Armageddon approacheth. s/,// bullshit no one knows whent that is gonna happen not even the wonderous dtm reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est. -- Aurelius Augustinus chillywilly (danielb@d17.as21.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) left irc: [x]chat ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) left irc: [x]chat ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) left irc: [x]chat omg we need a new homepage (no further comment) reinhard: why? ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) joined #gnuenterprise. plz don't get me started we had a cool static homepage under www.gnu.org/projects/gnue and we had a cool mailing list at gnue@gnu.org but that wasn't enough for us we needed 15 new mailing lists (of which >= 12 are completely dead) and we needed a hyper super dynamic homepage (where an average of 1-2 articles per month are posted) well i have to add that we had 3 or 4 versions of that dynamic homepage yeah and now i hear "we need a simple (static?) homepage" hehe i don't really care about the homepage, i care about the code :) me too :) so I _don't_ adivse you to read the logs to see what position I took in the homepage discussion :) Action: ajmitch scrolls up... ;) this was quite awhile ago, i guess? um yes several months :) hmm, i probably wouldn't be able to find it ;) Action: ajmitch has always wondered why there are so many mailing lists they hardly ever get used, from what i see exactly but we needed that because we will have so many developers will have, but it's not needed now yeah and we needed a dynamic web page because of the many articles people will post heh and we couldn't understand that rms is anti dynamic pages Action: reinhard has to stop now :) what mailing lists are actually used, btw? officially you could mail to all of them most of the subscriber lists are nearly identical :) hehe gotta leave, 3 installs are waiting for me bb in a few hours (evening my time) l8r reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est. -- Aurelius Augustinus ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.228) left irc: Ping timeout for ra3vat[195.239.64.228] ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.56) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp295063.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. technobok (pw@c1467.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: mdean-[DivertingMyEyesOLord] -> mdean-[codeSlave] technobok (pw@c1467.kelvn1.qld.optusnet.com.au) left irc: [BX] Leggo my Eggo! jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. howdy hi did you get derek fixed up on that form monday night? hi jamest: not really can you gentlemen see http://f-c-c.com or http://foundationcourseconsulting.com ? haven't been able to gnue too much jamest: how's the weather in KS dtm: :) The site you have requested doesn't exist. The associated domain name has probably been reserved by a client from GANDI then parked. The site you have requested doesn't exist. The associated domain name has probably been reserved by a client from GANDI then parked. he site you have requested doesn't exist. The associated domain name has probably been reserved by a client from GANDI then parked. ok thanks :/ interesting coz foundationcourseconsulting.com has always worked oh [08:10] Last message repeated 1 time(s). i'm on it :) i just switched f-c-c.com to my nameserver ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.56) left irc: Read error to ra3vat[195.239.64.56]: No route to host RockTiger (rocktigr@2ppp36.poi.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest: no form fixage ok first we must verify there is a real problem :) taco bell needs to rename their "Win it before you can buy it" x-box sweepstakes to "Win it before you can buy it but receive it a week after you could have bought it" x-box sweepstakes as we're one week away from retail rollout and their sigh keeps saying "come back real soon for the list of winners!" sigh=site something funny they are claiming huge interest in the x-box Xbox.com brought in 589,000 unique visitors during the week ended Oct. 28, soaring 71 percent from the previous week now I wonder if that may have, in some remote way, and I'm only guessing here, been due to the fact that you had to visit xbox.com to register your !@#!@# game piece and the last day to enter was the 29th of Oct be back tonight later all jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: later ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp295063.sympatico.ca) left irc: Client Exiting mdean-[codeSlave] (mdean@mkc-65-28-73-58.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) got netsplit. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) got netsplit. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) got netsplit. RockTiger (rocktigr@2ppp36.poi.net) got netsplit. jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean-[codeSlave] (mdean@mkc-65-28-73-58.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. dtm (dtm@m206-221.dsl.tsoft.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by forward.openprojects.net dres (dres@4.18.171.42) returned to #gnuenterprise. RockTiger (rocktigr@2ppp36.poi.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. RokTigger (rocktigr@2ppp36.poi.net) joined #gnuenterprise. RockTiger (rocktigr@2ppp36.poi.net) left irc: [x]chat Nick change: RokTigger -> RockTiger hi Howdy. hey, haven't seen you before, checkin out GNUe? Yep, couple of days ago - I recognized your nick. ahh, I might not have been around then East coast, right? or maybe my memory has failed, which does happen heh yeah NC you ? I'm in Hawaii - it was 3 AM when you logged out. ahh I think I recall now, talkin about hiking in Hawaii right? Yep, and the inheriting from other languages? Like the M$ CLR does? I'd like to go 4 wheelin and hike/camp in hawaii one day.. I dunno if they have public 4 wheelin areas tho.. I know some people 4 wheel there tho.. Not a lot of 4wheel areas, a few, tho. I might have been away during that part of the conversation ;-) Yeah - know how it goes. Mr_You: working on any of the GNUe stuff? jwserra (jwserra@as9-port44.efes.net.tr) joined #gnuenterprise. not programming, mainly an end-user/developer of Form applications.. trying to get a custom Debian based distro first then will start working on GNUe hi jwserra hi This is all very interesting stuff. How far along is gnue? still alpha, but coming along I hear 2 tier apps are in production Should one try to setup a system from cvs or just download the last release? I have heard to use the cvs version as of today I imagine a release might be coming up soon (as in a month or who knows) but I recall someone stating multiple changes between the latest release and cvs I suppose I can find all the info in the install docs right? Hewlett-Paquard has released an entire web service framework as open source: E-speak. jwserra: well I dunno... if you have probs, hang out here, someone is always willing to help you get running (assuming someone is here/available and knows how to fix your problem), but most of the developers are here frequently and like to help you get started if you have problems I think it is GPL'ed. have a url tiger? Action: RockTiger is looking - one minute. Action: RockTiger suugests http://www.e-speak.net/ cool thanks I think its awesome these big corps are GPLing software Me, too. I spent 6 month building a framework when all this was new, and HP's looks pretty good. They had a lot more resource to put into than we did. jwserra (jwserra@as9-port44.efes.net.tr) left irc: using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/1.1 its interesting to find out what "web services" platform will gain the most market share Umhm . . . but part of the beauty of it is - doesn't matter: whose Ethernet card has the biggest market share? As long as you have a working interface . . . e-Speak is 'GPL for the run-time engine and LGPL for the programming library API' Just found that on their site. What is LGPL again - 'lesser' ? yeah well.. what I mean is that.. usually the one with the most market share is the best one.. ;-) atleast as far as open source goes ;-) An people(corporations) are starting to open source their app servers too! Oh - got ya! Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by ChanServ!s@ChanServ: GNU Enterprise : http://www.gnue.org [If no one is home email info@gnue.org] #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ Well, I've looked into the 'market share' thing a bit, and I don't think many people have actually gotten that far with it yet. I agree hafta wait and see all you can do is use what works in the mean time And what seems appropriate for your organization. 6,642 developers .. geez heh 6,642? thats what it says for e-speak.net under site statistics I read that the HP family doesn't want the Compaq and HP merger to happenn Read that too. sounds good to me Yeah, seems to make sense in the current market. HP is open sourcing their app server, to, according to this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/22671.html IBM just open source 40 mil buck worth of web service development tools, too. Thats what they say it cost them to develop them. yeah use cvs thats what I thought i think you can expect a release of forms, designer, and common (all at 0.1.0) before the start of next week and the more people testing cvs before the release the better :) sweet plus the cvs is far nicer than last release Can we use Forms against Postgres? oh yeah yeah thats 2-tier rock we support popy, pygresql, pypgsql, psycopg drivers for postgresql okey-dokey - will look into it. in cvs yep, I'll take that advice, too. I'm new to GNUe is their a GUI-based form design tool? yip designer 'is there', sorry the quick and dirty setup guide to gnue cvs Way cool! check it out then cd gnuef python setup.py devel cd ../designer python setup.py devel Python! yay! this will get you the "uninstalled" version gfcvs - runs forms oh james, nov 4th has come and gone any word from madlocke? gfdes - runs designer not a peep i think if we don't hear anything by the weekend we'll call it a loss :( as 0.3.0 of forms is the UI rewrite release and there will not be a 0.2.0 why? oh.. so once 0.1.0 hits the wire we'll move forward you have cvs write? well.. I say we still make one or two more attempts to atleast get the code and look at it.. I could hack at it, or learn from it me? heh nah i have and older copy that the new stuff is based upon it's the pre-rewrite rewrite :) cool but it didn't support the web interface you seen that web forms deal? what? where? lemme find it reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/ chilly found it RockTiger: while I'm thinking about it designer does support everything forms can do what do you think about XForms? mainly themaster/detail forms have to be setup by hand the designer can manipulate them once setup Mr_You: i looked once but don't recall details, lemme check it out quickly also, what widgets does Forms have now? jamest: I like the idea of integrating audio or video with X-Forms dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest: Thx. ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip165.albany.thebiz.net) left #gnuenterprise (Client Exiting). RockTiger (rocktigr@2ppp36.poi.net) left #gnuenterprise (Thanks, all!). Winguy (no@h24-65-228-88.cg.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Winguy (no@h24-65-228-88.cg.shawcable.net) left #gnuenterprise. lol m$ germany offers a prize for the best case study of a linux to windows migration anybody remember my former signoff message? first they ignore you then they laugh at you then they fight you :) psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. mock, ridicule, brawl :) sounds like m$ tactics "Hi. Yeah, I'm an MSCE consultant from Luffenwaffin" I don't see a signoff from you in my scroll back "I noticed that by switching my Linux using customers to Windows" "I was able to increase my support revenue by 300%" Mr_You: former == 2 months ago sorry if that is bad English i remember it reinhard jamest: lol sigh http://www.solucorp.qc.ca/nt2linux/ "Hi, Im an MCSD/MCSE + Internet from Lustenau" just happen to come across that "Getting a 30% discount on licensing and being able to wrap that back into my cost at 100% cost gets me serious revenue with little work." dneighbo: :) "In addition to that, when I developing using your recommended 3rd party components and databases, I am able to pick up additional licensing revenue markup's as well" "your new 'pirate protection' initiatives are really helping me as I am able to give a 'good' reason why my clients should pay for licenses "A completely unexpected yet very positive side effect of the migration involved most of my customers in-house IT quiting soon after the migration." "My consulting revenues have gone thru the roof!" "The best effect I have seen is that the customers are having so much trouble with the operating system, they barely call me anymore about bugs in my software. Since your support is so poor, I get additional 'operating system' support revenue" "I can truly say economically, this has been a great migration for my customers" psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. did you guys catch my xbox site stat comment earlier about the increased traffic on xbox.com "Two threatened to leave because they were frustrated, but when they spoke to the folks in Luffenwaffin, they confirmed this is 'normal' and you 'get used to it', since then all is well" "Microsoft thank you for bringing the American Dream to Austria, we love M$!" hehe what i like best is when customers tell me "my [Windows] system is surprisingly stable, it crashes only twice a week or so" :) rock solid baby yesterday my boss got 'memory allocation errors' the other programmer here asked 'when was last time you rebooted? i started cackling over the cubicle walls i added 'its only funny cause its a valid question' sure enough a reboot fixed it :) dneighbo: wrong dneighbo: a reboot removed the symtpom symptom :) nickr (nick@e-172-IP26.empnet.net) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all got an interesting e-mail as a result of the 1st Kernel Cousins GNUe theres a kc gnue? that's a cue for someone to say "tell us about it psu..." oh there it is nickr - hidden in the list across the top not on the main list yet test about it psu please i want to know :) aha! e-mail from a guy in Brussles he has persuaded a large private company to GPL its HR/Payroll system Are we interested? possibly we would like to talk to him the biggest problem is we want our architecture not something that is 'fixed' or 'hardcoded' BUT agreed shall I fwd mail to you the nice thing about such things is it gives us a base requirement or to one of the other guys? i.e. implement the fuctionality in GNUe architecture yes of course if he wanted to GPL it we could put under GNUe umbrella regardless if he liked send the email to info@gnue.org also, I suppose problems then it will go to appropriate folks if they have used any non-free s/w psu: yes, im leary at best about such things to help write it. but i dont like to count things out ok. if it's technologically incompatible maybe it becomes our first test for GNUe Integrator (oops, forget I said that) :-) why it makes some sense :) first rule of the army & GNU - never come up with any ideas Integrater? or or someone will suggest you do it rofl of course, I should be safe this is true as IANAP (i am not a programmer) and your wonderful for volunteering to start integrator and so diligent about it too :) so when does next gnue kc come out :) weekly? monthly? weekly I have 80-90% of the next one written depending how much you all talk the next two days ;-) Monday was 137k of log file some excellent stuff in there, however. what is GNUe Integrator? omg you quoted me i quote everyone gotta spread the fame/blame/shame/whatever AFAIK, Integrator is the module hmm I'm not quoted, but the statement from me isn't entirely accurate, but no big deal that allows you to integrate Instead, he was looking to customize Interchange to provide a web shopping cart using PHP. stuff that doesn't fit the GNUe architecture Action: Mr_You just bein picky. at all cool Integrator is a GNUe Tool that will allow you to merge disparate data Mr_You - I can actually resubmit if there's anything major wrong jcater is a good example he has an existing financial (accounting) package part of the problem with IRC is there's less context but is going to do inventory etc in GNUe psu: ehh nah, its got enough buzz words to get someone in here to ask ;-)) so I'm bound to make a serious boo-boo eventually integrator woudl allow him to configure a 'map' from one to the other and run it in batch or real time the old fashioned way to do this would be - export text file from source app frig around with it using perl, SQL, COBOL (no joke), whatever then load into target system and hope it all works "old fashioned" - earlier this year in my case anyway yeah, if someone wanted to hack together Interchange and GNUe that would be a good spot for it I guess.. yip that is old way :) also know as contrib new way is have integrator build an xml def of source a and source b visually match one field to antoher and apply rules save definitions and rules and use at will what's will ever done to upset you? v old joke sorry huh? "fire at will" http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/Integrator/ explains a bit psu: in regards to mdeans "new Release" is more specificly about his dcl app not GNUe, but coincidentally GNUe seems to also have a release coming dont think its teh 'final' direction we will go but its general idea psu: i think you did exceptional job for being new to gnue on the kc some minor inaccuracies like the one Mr_You is pointing out Mr_You - I'm going to issue a "clarification" next issue but over time i think it will iron itsefl out :) trans. I fubared up hopefully you have been getting your notes :) second one is much easier alredy we have been dropping them in log as we see fit BTW: i have a lot to html converter that will be very nice for you :) psu: sounds good, I would say all you need to do is add "DCL (Double Choco Latte)" to it and be done, IMO i will make it so you can also insert anchors so in teh KC you can link right to the spot in the log also it was designed to allow message drops and topic filtering thanks dneighbo so you can do **EMAIL psu** hey do foo please, thanks -d **END EMAIL** and it would emai you that or k()()l **GEAS** some stuff other stuff **END GEAS** psu: I may have missed it, but how long til there is a GNUe mailing list on there? and then it would create a geas.html that only had lines in all the geas tags Mr_You - when there is actually some traffic there were issues with how to best do that I am theoretically covering all the GNUe lists I can find funy as you have cross topic stuff as well as IRC and people forget to use topics etc which is why i gave up on it but i still have the code :) so i will play with it again dn - part of joy or IRC is that you can start talking one thing and onto another without even realising oddly enough i hacked in my hotel room at LWCE NY last year :) I can always retrospectively "designate" "threads" anyway i called the original file logger.py Mr_You - there is an email thread next issue and then got childish on the plain and couldnt stop lauging at the name logger :) for those that dont know logger = childish slang for a large turd I thought a logger was someone who loged logged that too :) eg a lumerjack lumbejack & i'm OK lumberjack even most lumber jacks do produce 'loggers', i think its the pancakes :) maybe its a redneck child thing to call big turds loggers (thusly why i thought i should clarify) dneighbo: you are sick Reinhard said that James Thompson had started it, "but has been mad goat raped in the middle of the development process". :) psu : what were we saying about topics again? bahahah! KC guidelines say don't swear, but don't cut other's swearing I was only obeying guidelines hahaha psu: huh? I was refering to a mailing list that would send the kc for GNUe to my mailbox Mr_You - don't know about that I assume it is covered by whatever functionality Zack has set up for the other KCs dn - if people can put topic markers in the log it would be helpful ok, I might just try a blind email, its not on the site yet but since I need to read the whole log anyway doesn't matter if they forget anyone decided on a format for topic markers? could be as simple as TOPIC: Goats "hey psu are you reading this?" works for me TOPIC: goat rape PSU: goats well, to me, it looks like the first IRC-based Kernel Cousin was a success ;-) yep Action: Mr_You pats psu on the back. It does seem a little more um crazy than the list based ones ta muchly But its very useful nickr - I think that reflects the medium the medium is the message Indeed it gives someone the ability to go back and read the entire conversation or some incentive to contact us to find out more its like recording meeting minutes sorta Mr_You - very similar in fact except at meetings not everyone talks at the same time (oh, I don't know, though...) heh Meetings also tend to have fixed agendas TEND to meetings don't tend to discuss goats or trout TEND to ;-) this is one long meeting heh one long rambling meeting with no doughnuts and lots of farmsex ahem heh MOTTO! hehe i think we should after every KC release a. post the summary part as a news story with a link to the KC b. notify linuxtoday c. mail a version the discuss list this way all bases covered yea sounds godo I can do all that. AFAIK, linux today carries all KCs automagically but I could be wrong it sure does, cause there it is! ;-))) psu: but didnt you 'submit' that KC? or was it auto done? Kernel Cousin GNUe #1 by Peter Sullivan (Nov 6, 2001, 15:03 UTC) (1701 reads) (0 talkbacks) (Posted by mhall) "Welcome to the first issue of KC GNUe! Thanks (I think!) to Jeff Bailey for persuading me to volunteer for this, and to Zack Brown for his help and patience in sorting out my first draft. This Cousin will cover the IRC channel for GNUe (and some mailing lists as well). For more information about the GNU Enterprise project, see their home page..." After battling to stay alive, Eazel succumbed to market conditions, and on May 15 it closed its doors for good. If this were the world of closed-source software, this event would have been devastating to customers." dn - I submitted the announcement, but not the KC itself if Eazel *had* paying customers they might still exist ;-) InfoWorld must need clicks Mr_You why is that A local firm, QSP just went under they wrote accounting software & provided it ASP all their clients are currently still have their servers kept running by the administrator but are feeling very nervous in a hypothetical future if they were using a GNUe Application Service Provider they could switch tomorrow even take their "special modules" written by the ASP as long as they have been GPL-ed as well In fact, would they not have to b? dneighbo: I just don't care for the articles scenario Eazel seemed like a bad example.. that example seems better to me now QSP have been taken over by another firm instead they picked on open-source guess what "mandatory upgrade" is coming next? Mr_You i agree and disagree http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/011101/183/ce5c1.html i think nautilus is a shining example of how in free software world a good product lives even if its company dies note to psu - continution of thread from Mon 05 Nov i think it is a bad example of customers not getting the shaft, as eazel had no customers, therefore they had no one that would have been shafted :) actually it freed nautilus from its bondage lsort of same if ximian died today derek: yeah.. their software would live on im sure but i dont think they have any 'customers' in sense of word 'customer' so no one is screwed exactly both nautilus and ximian do have 'end users' that are/wouldnt be hosed if the companies folded and that is valuable information :) i think psu's sample is MORE powerful in the sense that you can say look at this REAL WORLD situation where PAYING customers are left with fate hanging in the balance IF it had been free software like ....insert package here... it could exist w/o the company (one that comes to mind outside nautilus is greatbridge (postgresql) psu: for the record i think most of GNUe developers are pretty much against the notiion of ASP's obviously one could use GNUe for an ASP, but its not something we intend to encourage much yeah.. I think thats what infoworld is probably going for (didn't read the entire article) but putting an open-source company known like Eazel might get more hits than a no name i think it was a 'positive' article really as it was trying to say even though some 'big name' linux companies are dying the software remains strong dn - I think you're right at least initially, orgs interested in GNUe will also be interested in running them itself as with demise of eazel, and linuxcare/valinux on the ropes a lot of FUD is being used saying Linux is dead look at thier 'wall street darlings' this article i think was meant to counter such FUD though possibly not in the most 'effective' manner I think software as a service will still continue to process on the local (LAN) side, but with WAN integrated with a service provider. isn't the new GPL 3.0 meant to have something re. ASPs Mr_You i agree i think most shops except very small ones will want something like gnue in their own control but might use it like an ASP to smaller affiliates of thiers so the home office houses 'super GNUe' and the remote offices get reduced access via web to some critical yet not as intense things if you are sufficiently afflicted by FUD over running your own financial apps you will probably have too much FUD to use GNUe anyway most true :) early GNUe adopter = cluefull typical ASP cutomer = clueless (descriptive, not insultative) is that a word? well I would say the adopter doesn't need so much clue, cause it will just run and run and run, the integrator will need clue FUD is a powerful thing comes in words like "reference sites" insultive seems like a useful word "experience in the industry" all subsitutes for working out whether your integrator/supplier knows their onions The Idea of ASPs seems like a good one if there are ratings and assurances the idea is ok the problem is a. risk b. reality I would find it frustrating knowing every time I wanted something changing, I have to renegotiate SLA most people throw b out the door but most good companies are reasonably concerned about a :) or rely on goodwill With in-house IT, I just need to persuade the IT director that what I want to do is reasonable. the most poignant example i have is if i buy package a from vendor a, he tell me upgrade or you dont get support YES! if i really dont like his new package i can continue to use the old one and just not have support (which i probably never had anyhow) BUT if im an ASP customer (in big, Ben-Hur title style lettering) the son of a bitch over night can upgrade me and im screwed dn - that's their business model, of course economies of scale, everyone the same set up dneighbo: assuming their architecture forces that situation now granted we can have a contract that makes it so he has to warn me and i get a choice etc etc There's definitely the need for an infrastruture of agreements to prevent ad things like that from happening (not telling you anything you don't know...) but now its not an ASP its simply a co-locatino that im overpaying for :) pretty much ;-0 ) nickr: my point being i can name like 40 situations like this and the answer is always well make a contract so you cant do that Indeed. and my point is that then its not an ASP dneighbo: i think meanwhile microsoft can upgrade your pc over night without letting you know even without being ASP its a consulting house / software vendor / where you just choose to use their hardware :) only if you leave it swiched on psu: true :) reinhard : sadly i think that is their goal which isn't likely with Windows psu: and especially only if you have windows installed ;) need to clear down all the memory leaks the thing is ASP's make sense for SOFTWARE VENDORS its easier to 'control' the customer you control the hardware the software versions the data etc etc etc known bugs GNUe is intended to be the opposite of control however, 90% of all consulting jobs i have been on the NUMBER ONE complaint is the customer felt they had no control with current vendor and wanted out thats why we started GNUe this is why free as in speech is more important than free as in beer its 'ultimate' control for GNue psu ABSOLUTELY :) psu: couldn't agree more and why most gnue developers are anti ASP, for the simple reason we feel it removes freedoms of end users most of them not 'understanding it' until its too late :) GNUe Hosting is better ;-) actually, most medium/large finance s/w vendors are probably above average in giving access now im sure there will be a few gnue asp's that come around some might even be successful not necess to source, but to info i dont doubt that there is a market for companies not saying much, probably that really dont want to 'care' about IT at all but there's a world of difference between and do want someone else to control it all w/o much input a private customisation which will break with the next upgrade what about a company that is basically an external IT dept? i think its a SMALL percentage though as the ASP's that are going under are quickly finding out and just checking out & customising the "GNUe Weird & Wacky Requirements" module thats not considered an ASP is it? nope, thats the problem :) ASP you cant customize :) really but to each their own that was one of teh culture shocks at my old company when they started selling ASP the biggest one i have gotten from companies about ASP salesmen used to saying "yes" to everything & adding in the cost of the customisation is "NO FRIGGIN WAY IM PUTTING MY FINANCIALS ON A MACHINE I DONT OWN" suddenly the ASP people were saying NO the ultimate no-no for salesmen Hrm i.e. at one company, the CEO was all hot on using an ASP (from FUD) basicly all an ASP is: packaged software accessed within the web-browser eliminating the need to maintain backups or hardware we discussed what that meant and him and the account after realizing it meant putting data outside their network said 'what idiot company would do that' end quote :) Mr_You : shining example, say you use greatplains what about a company that manages a computer inside your company as a delivered service? which assuredly will use passport and passport was just hacked and ewallet with it passport is a joke now your company data is available to the world now thats not to say your 'data' isnt secure when not in an ASP but its a HELL of a lot more secure even if its not The following information was not given: oops let me give you an example you can have an insecure system but theoritically only random hacker or a competitor will try to 'crack' it probably fairly low probablility you go to a large ASP w/ say 500 customers much more likely target of a cracker hacker sees "KICK ME" sign yes and once they have cracked the system they will have access to all 500 custom data cracker, sorry ;-) so even if thier security is better theoritically it is being attacked more often probably by higher level of cracker :) unless an ASP does EXTREMELY thorough security audits *regularly* then you have a huge risk, which is why it should only be used for really small biz at a really cheap price also most companies only expose key data to the 'net' rarely but anyhow i think most of us are in agreement here or for a large start-up that needs to be up next Tuesday but then most of these are jt ventures so one of the partners can provide financials regardless of security etc my primary knock on ASP's are they remove 'freedom' from their users which is bad IMO you could layer your arch. so that GNUe lies on the local side with isolated wan services to a service provider for additional services.. ie. a VPN Mr_You thats what we are starting to do now setting up ssl postgres as well as setting up a freeSWAN VPN Isomer (isomer@210-54-84-189.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. and testing forms with it so you could have WAN capabilities of course when geas is ready we woudl do with geas opposed to the db cool psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. how's geas going? ssl postgres is a solution but year I'd rather use a VPN, or limited ssl web access s/year/yea/ + GEAS you could have geas/db as a provided service? yeah, using a VPN or (eventually) do DB replication between multiple sites via VPN.. (just a guess/dream) ;that'd be cool storage provider if you had several then if one went out of usiness or something you'd be okay Mr_You that would be best end game for large sites thank you ;-) real time replicatoni of geas objects as well as database data Action: Mr_You snickers. one day this way they can use local servers at locations for speed but if one node or another fails offsite backup in secure datahaven in a salt mine in romania? yup, and additional functionality.. they have dual location instant backup for no loss in business servers consolidation will continue.. companies save money with less machines.. in the future one or two machines will have multiple virtual private servers with different services with added security gonna get some late lunch bbl s/servers/server argh hi all howdy ahoy psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. Action: Isomer must say debian's "apt" really spoils you. trying to find all the dependancies for gnue on a rh7.1 box sigh. I feel yer pain apt is simply the way things should be theres lots of dependanceis too Isomer surely you jest :P how many of the frontends work so far? attempt installing gnucash on a rh6.2 machine w/o ximian (or even with ximian) and you will understand the true meaning of 'dependency' same goes for evolution etc etc etc to be fair to gnucash try doing it from a box without X and watch the dependancies climb! :) perhaps you should have a page with links to all the dependancies that you are likely to need? perhaps you should use apt no-one has packaged gnue for debian yet? well, this box is RH7 and apparently noones packaged it at all unlessy ou count .tgz as a package :) I'm shocked and dismayed Action: Mr_You packaged gnue for debian, but no one had any use for them, and someone is maintaining sid packages I think not sure what version of GNU e ah funky gaes 0.0.6 but thats all I see in sid Isomer: frontends are currently only wxpython the curses one is broken the html one isn't in cvs as for the dependency page, we did start putting them in downloads but kinda dropped the ball and don't have them all up there :( also, wrt the frontends, 0.1.0 of forms will be out this week then the focus shifts back to the frontends ahh cool the form designer doesn't do much? or am I being stupid? cvs version or release? which one you running? ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.43) joined #gnuenterprise. http://www.oddtodd.com/ requires flash the one in tgz's on the website in the downloads area ah, that designer is old and is little more than framework looks nice you definately want the cvs stuff but not overly functional :) we're about to release 0.1.0 of it as well you have access to cvs? also, i assume you're running on a *nix system is that right? yeah I'm on a RH7.1 box I'll go co it ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.43) left irc: [x]chat ok ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.43) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.43) left irc: [x]chat ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.43) joined #gnuenterprise. the plan is to show the boss something neat, we start doing projects with it, then he pays me to code on it :) keep everybody happy :) yea! ;-) :) Isomer: what you working on? I work for a company that does a lot of web based projects for companies ranging from ecommerce -> various business apps (eg: Timesheet, TODO etc) mostly in php Isomer we had rpms at one time technically with setup.py its not hard to create, should be included with next release as for debians they are on the way geas debian exists cool the rest are in development by jbailey designer even the old one tgz was VERY functional to me not intuitive at times but still very useful (for editing existing forms) what widgets does forms have right now? the cvs version is more intuitive and the BIG plus is it has WIZARDS to build forms directly from dbs label and text so in like 5 minutes :) sweet :) you can have fully functional db aware unix/win32 app man however it has different styles of those :) label dropdown edit checkbox? checkbox textarea? textarea ok fake grids : :) caffeine is kickin in not good heh cool! this script is frustratin me Isomer: most of these are variations of a widget gnuef has a very basic set of widgets are multiple forms within a single forms client capable? and how about launching another forms client? no, yes wait, that's not true yes, yes hehe cool man, i hate windows so you can do master/detail relationships? ok, so yes you can create menus to other forms and yes you can launch another forms client from a menu? Isomer: yes very very sweet but designer form wizard doesn't support autocreation of them yet what i do create two forms in desginer merge them with the needed tag changes then use designer to fix up the layout cool as designer itself has no problems with master/deatil only the wizzard has issues Mr_You: no menu alterations yet that's part of the UI rewrite Isomer: i have to leave soon did you get cvs ? it's still CO'ing I should have -z9'd it :) I'm sure I can figure it out ok thanks for your help :) Action: Isomer looking forward to playing with this no problem I'll try and be on tonight :) where are you located at? ah ha! just finished the co I'm in New Zealand it's currently 11am TOPIC: GNUe Forms Client (preceeded) more NZrs! heh the 3 dirs of interest (at least for forms) gnuef gnue-common desginer install gnue-common first then forms then designer yep done that already from the tgz's then you're set :) hrm it wants me to upgrade python now :/ whoops crap,crap,crap i completely forgot about that 0.1.0 will require python2.x Action: Isomer might stay late tonight and upgrade to 7.2 argh! and hope that comes with python2 :) i must leave now sorry i'll be back later jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: [x]chat np :) bbl Action: Mr_You & Action: Isomer drools quietly over gnue hi hemun_nan oops wrong channel nite all reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est. -- Aurelius Augustinus psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: does gnome have a database "object"? jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. howdy y'all\ howdy dneighbo: did jamest get to look at the master/detail form today, or do I still need to look at it? dont think he did you might want to look at it you know if he'll be back on tonight? he said he was going to try chillywilly (danielb@d41.as29.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. exit dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: [BX] Hey baby, come sit on my lap. We'll talk about whatever pops up. hehe chillywilly: HIDAN hey dude got your email yep gravy i've been reading the book of Daniel Action: dtm removes his glasses so as to not mess em up due to the light and fire spouting from his eyes so how's it going i read somewhere that males go through monthly hormonal cycles but i have no idea what that's all about i dont know if it's the same time every month or why it is,etc what symptoms to look for kinda weird MOST UNUSUAL. dtm: I've read that too but don't recall where hmm! therefore it must be true!! :) How very queer. Well I'm glad for that! haha hey you know what's another weird biological life cycle thingie that The Man doesn't want you to know about?!! perimenopause we have your time of the month too? women get it of course. er, our chillywilly: yeah, apparently! right, jcater? yes perimenopause is nutty coz it occurs from age 30-45 and is way misunderstood and misdiagnosed hmmm but it's serious. the reason why doctors called the removal of the uterus a hysterectomy, is because it used to be considered a cure for "hysteria" obviously. i dont know if it really works. maybe it does in some cases. i'd think it'd l;eave ya feeling kinda hollow! it is an old suoerstition superstition even ToyMan (Stuart@c5300-3-ip141.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. so did you like that email dan jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp295063.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. uh sure :) jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp295063.sympatico.ca) left #gnuenterprise (Client Exiting). jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201089.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!s@ChanServ 'sup dawg? hey found a bug so did I (from derek's form :( ) wassat? modal dialog (login) choaks on windows but the code is correct i locks on the 2nd call to ShowModal() i have workarround what's your bug master/detail ARGH! in forms, if you create a new record in a master block it automatically creates a new record in detail block but when you commit that seems right it then fills in the primary key in the master and commits the master then commits the detail (without first setting the detail's foreign key) sigh you working on a fix? yes BUT one caveat you need to use a pre-commit (or pre-insert, or whatever it's called) trigger to populate the master's primary key not a postgresql automatic incremented field or forms won't know what the key is ? in derek's example, the pygresql driver requeried automattically so the primary key was available oh, it does wtf is a foreign key? I mena like where do you usually use one? it's a key that's only allowed in the db with a proper work visa Nick change: mdean-[codeSlave] -> mdean lets say you have a db called states state_code char(2) description varchar(30) then in your customer db oh, ok you have a state_code field that is a foreign key crappy example but the idea is there jcater: oh, it does? Action: dtm GOTSTA MOVE THESE REFRIGERATORS! Action: dtm GOTSTA MOVE THESE COLOR TV'S! a pointer to another table right? dtm: ? I want my Gnu-uu-e =) Action: dtm taps the plate and then points to the upper deck Action: dtm kicks his shoes mdean: hi mdean: jbiggers's baby is ok, just a bump Action: chillywilly notices migel in #gnome should I bitch slap him? er, miguel chillywilly: now's your chance! dtm: howdy - cool aboot the baby mdean: yeah whew I don't like miguel and his anti-GNU attitude chillywilly: miguel is an eccentric one where's he get his money? why do we always hurt the ones we love? ximian, that is mdean: :'-{ mdean: ? what is ximian's income? chillywilly: you don't love Miguel? ximian can kiss my arse hell no chillywilly: mdean is saying that MIGUEL DOESN'T WANNA HATE  !! HE ONLY WANTS TO LOVE..... HE JUST DOESN'T KNOW *HOW*!! :'-{ Action: dtm collapses to his knees, whimpering, and raising his shaking hands up to the sky I feel like starting shit with him evertime I see him enter #gnome Miguel is my anti-hero mdean: hehe chillywilly: be careful why? they can ban me if they want obvious reasons I don;t give a crap what good is it if you get banned? then you can't talk normally there we're all in the same community whether we all fully reckanize or not Action: dtm . o O ( o/~ we gotsta move to Beverlyyyyy..... Hills, that is. ) well we only have 2 gnome dependencies ORBit and glib so what Action: dtm hoses dan down so I havn't done anything anyway :) I said I would *like* to bitch slap him let's not have aggression amongst brethren, regardless of who started what : :) chillywilly: yeah and you said more than that :) well dude if we had mono and dotgnu cooperation then maybe I wuld think more highly of miguel but when he uses the glibc release notes to take a shot at RMS and uses it to justify being a code nazi he can kiss my butt you don't want mono i acknowledge that there may be reasons to not be entirely appreciative of ximian's/miguel's efforts :/ chillywilly: yeah mdean: yeah i thought i was pregnant once for a whole year turned out it was mono rofl or maybe i was just bored chillywilly: dan you could throw your significant other at Miguel. er? use her like a projectile against a giant bowling pin why would I do that? and say "SO THERE!" chillywilly: i only say that because the last time i saw ya gettin riled up , it was about her so just tryin to be helpful yea, well that was yesterday dont mean ya dont lub em mdean: how are you doing sir? Action: dtm ponders racing to the Fremont public library 000101001001010110111000 what number is that ? the good one dtm: peachy mdean: no way Action: dtm remenisces over an accidental culinary creation of his childhood, called "peach sauce" mike have you ever been unpeachy? at least in the time i've known ya? sounds yucky chillywilly: no! yes! a;jflsjwp9o it doesn't pay toi argue with me I always win ;P noted! Action: dtm jots that down dtm: if you do: piMike->get_Status(BSTR* pVal) and look at the code, you'll find: *pVal = m_bstrPeach.Copy(); HAHAHHAHAkjwlekjwlk lol !! Action: Isomer cookies the work visa quote cookies? sticks it in the cookie file :) Isomer: get cvs copy running? nah I need to upgrade python and I think thats going to take a while :) so I won't do that on work hours :) sorry about that they just uploaded 2.1.1 into debian sid np :) we debated it a while but 1.5.2 was making us kludge things a little too much I find it mildly amusing that NEWS says that the forms developer now works better with 1.5.2 :) yeah I can completely understand :) python2's much nicer I'll upgrade this box this evening I hope RH7.2 has python2 i'm not sure otherwise I'll have to do it at home yes it does BUT it's a python2*.rpm iow it comes with the distro but is not the distro's default python thats fine lambert (lambert@r-201.168.alltel.net) joined #gnuenterprise. anyone have a win32 machine handy with gnuef dependencies installed? preferably not win98 sorry bummer what you going about the key thing master detail's a bitch to implement :) always is :) everything always ends up with the wrong key :) the child result sets are pulling their foreign keys from the master result set during their post they did that before didn't they? let me guess: at that point the master doesn't have it's key yet on an insert? only if the master is new as well if the master was an existing record, it worked fine man , know pygresql updated it's fields and I'm supprized that is not part of DB API 2.0 I've honestly never seen anything like that until pygresql ToyMan (Stuart@c5300-3-ip141.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting although I wish all did :) what does postgres do? and besides, you've got to handle completely broken db's like mysql that wouldn't know a foriegn key if a million fell on them Isomer: mysql basher eh? I think you'll fit in well here :) heh we drove away all the mysql lovers Isomer: we are talking foreign keys in principle; not necessarily DB-enforced foreign keys rofl yeah, but you said something about postgres updating itself? the pygresql driver IIRC updated it's fields after a commit so that a row commit would return the row ToyMan (Stuart@c5300-3-ip141.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. that way any foriegn keys, fields updated by db triggers, etc were reflected in the data right away IIRC I used that feature in the old db drivers so that I could get OIDs on newly inserted rows cool but we've grow to dislike pygresql a bit I'm afraid grow = grown oh? why is that? it's buggy and some are long standing bugs such as? well, the real issue is there's a Python DB API we wanna use.. Pygresql itself has its own API, but wrote a wrapper around its API to support the standard we use it on undernet and we *Really* give it a huge thrashing the fetchOne on the DB API 2.0 does not work IIRC pygresql works fine (using it's home-grown interface) a patch was submitted long ago but they won't, don't fix it but it's DB-API wrapper just plain sux ahh ok yes, the custom API was what I used at first too our biggest problem with it is that you need to vacuum it regularly and when you do it brings the entire thing to a halt and when we've got realtime constraints it's pretty harsh :) i didn't think 7.1 did that anymore It may not lock the entire database or is it 7.2 cvs that has that fixed now but it locks too much :) so, what other db's are there if you disqualify mysql and postgres is buggy? open source/free? theres no point using something otherwise :P well, there's SAP-DB... never used it so can't comment also, is it interbase that has a OSS version? interbase and sybase I thought were both OSS'd is sybase OSS? nope - but their first Linux version is free ahh they're abusing the word Free jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: Read error to jcater[HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com]: Connection reset by peer and only supports 5 concurrent connections free beer is bad i dont thing postgresql is any buggier than others free beer software that is :P in fact i worked on a system where oracle crashed on shutdown every time heheh it was a known bug we were told to not worry about oracle 6.x on VMS it's the pygresql driver that gave us problems jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sigh xchat crashes on me once a day :( :/ since gnuef supports popy, pygresql, psycopg, pypgsql mdean: was that free as in beer? i'm not too worried about pygresql issues anymore btw - jcater jcater: yes sqlrelay driver was donated? jcater: and it only supports 5 concurrent connections jamest: yeah, by me tho they don't mention that fact when you dl it I was using it in house for testing a few months ago and? fell in love with it did you? and realized yesterday that I hadn't put in CVS it's ok pwd I was using it as a replacement for ODBC believe it or not :) cause at the time I couldn't find Oracle-python drivers for Windows but now, both DCOracle and cxOracle have win32-compatable python drivers BUT since it'd already been written, why not commit it :) :) actually, someone was asking about SQLRelay last week out of the blue kinda odd i'm all for it! i hate seeing tools that only support 1 db 1 ui that doesn't tourture the coders enough :) well, I've decided to convert to debian can you install it via FTP? ? i think so but why? cause I don't have a CD handy think it faster than http? ah you can install lots o ways you'll probably need the root and rescue floppy images why the change? I'm gonna get plex86 working and debian helps in what way? it's in sid now no rpms? uh, no it's highly experimental i wouldn't wish sid upon you as is sid is your laptop still debian? oh, yeah oh plz I suppose I could test on that :) sid is fine as long as you read the debian new beofre upgrading news chillywilly: shut up :D what? Action: chillywilly drop kicks jcater if there is any serious breakage you will know before you break your system just by going to #debian and msging apt and reading the news and the topic channel er, channle topic channel Action: jcater isn't that brave wuss I'd just die if I lost my data do you have any idea how long it took to download all this pr)n oops XFS file system beotch I guess with our new PATRIOT act now chillywilly, i know sid has whooped up on your machine at least once or twice I better not say that I'm sure Time-Warner+FBI is monitoring every packet I send out now jamest: nope, my laptop forze before when I left it on all night but that is a temperature problem MS (RE)Active Government it was really hot powering it off fscked my file system, but ext2 sux ass and I will never use it again sigh only journaling for me do we really need to support master/derail???? :) derail? hehe rofl well, that's appropriate for now :) jcater: that was one of the driving factors for the db rewrite if you recall better master/detail support oh, yeah so I vote we keep it :) doh! what was I smokin? dunno, but it sounds like some real good stuff! it is better, right? right? may man wxPython and win32 jcater: well, yes it's better BUT we want perfection there's always a but or, in chillywilly's case, a butt oops hey now! Action: chillywilly sticks his butt out right there man we agreed not to talk about chillywilly like that when he's here hehe note to psu --------- don't keep the thread on chillywilly's butt --------- rofl note to psu keep all goat threads though ;) one can never have enough gotat raping going on er, goat raping :P Action: Isomer shudders you don't need threads of goat raping that's mad goat raping btw you just need win32 and wxpython jamest: speaking of threads Action: jamest remembers he has to,um, wash his hair would it be too much of an issue Action: jamest is away: avoiding jcater if debugging support in designer required an OS w/thread support?? ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.43) left irc: [x]chat Action: jamest is back (gone 00:00:20) jcater: designer is multi-threaded? no I was asking if it would be a problem if it was (in form-preview/debug mode only, though) I would hope not we're upgrading undernet to pg7.2 now :) does python threads work on win32? Action: jcater scared jamest away is 7.2 ok jcater which OS's would we lose I dunno? Action: chillywilly notes GNU Common C++ thread class is very portable :D SCO Unix 4.2? DOS mac os really? wait jcater: what would you parallelize? doesn't wxwindows run under its own "thread" older mac oses were not even multi-tasking jamest: good point newer ones probably aren't either :) note that this would not break designer only the realtime run/debugging that is ok with me mac os x uses freebsd on Mach it has to have threads mach is multi-threaded it at least has cthreads but I have a feeling since glibc is ont here you get pthreads too can someone test new gnuef login code it's in cvs and passes the "it works for me" test sure hang on ToyMan (Stuart@c5300-3-ip141.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Exiting Action: jamest swings from vine to vine Action: jcater just got naucious sigh what? wife just told me her office uses MS Access yes? my wife works for the IRS yes so thats what the "if databasename==Taxes" code was in MS Access for... lol jcater: does it still work for you? helloworld2 works lemme test zipcodes um helloworld doesn't login :) rofl good point heh a good software engineer tests the contrary case anyway :) if I fail four times, I get DB000: self._loginHandler.destroyLoginHandler() DB000: AttributeError: 'UILoginHandler' instance has no attribute 'destroyLoginHandler' but if I don't make a mistake, it works fine :) arhg! DB000: File "/home/jason/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GConnections.py", line 205, in requestConnection The obvious solution there -- don't make mistakes! ok, i fix that was the line number :) Isomer: that's what I said yesterday well, it was only a windows bug if you wanna use Win98, you can't make mistakes :) and they're used to lockups DISCLAIMER: You will be fined $20 every time you make a mistake! jamest: sadly, there's a lot of truth in that :( they're getting better tho Isomer: I dunno MS gets thrashed over their reliability or lack thereof with MS's new licensing so at least now they're trying they may start charging for mistakes which at least makes it amusing to watch actually, I'm surprised they don't charge you like they did Dimitry if you make mistakes well, there is that too jcater: ok, fixed ah, much better Maniac (darryl@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. so...hows master/detail? :) well it's going I think I have it fixed pythin thinks otherwise see python's fault! Action: Maniac runs from jcater Maniac: no, derek's fault it was his form that found the bug yes, I agree we should shoot derek to prevent further occurances of bugs and prevent people publishing security updates to prevent futher occurances of security holes too uggh! ? this is frustrating jcater: slip a little Dave Matthews in the old cd player relax Action: jamest is listing to #41 what's up? I'm missing something somewhere it's called a life the values are getting set in the child recordsets master/detail not detaling? but not reflected in the insert statements ? yip they are being set in the recordset that sums it up but not in the insert? (the '?) (the '?' that is) hmm Action: jcater thinks maybe he should run gfcvs with a -d # so he can see what's happening :) you're not returning a new recordset are you yes keeping a handle to the old one yes = yet time to break out some GDebug.printMesg's I'll show it hmm Isomer: problems? not really just bored & at work Isomer: do like we do keep an xterm on the side open w/gnue stuff in it :) or several! hell, dedicate a virtual desktop or two to it Action: jcater keeps a VNC session open for it since he's on Win98 at work bwahahahhaahaha Action: jamest just found his win32 beta tester I'd test it at work more, but see, um, i have a real OS on my desktop Action: jamest hides argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that good? I've been beating my head against my Trinitron over this master/detail insert statement crap just to finally realize it's another bug in another part of GDataObjects GDataObjects isn't automatically "binding" fields specified in masterfields or detailfields you mean your 21 inch Trinitron? yes you shouldn't treat it like that it's a rock solid monitor I wouldn't worry you'd better just send it to me until you can learn to treat it with respect lol my mom's gonna be upset with me I was supposed to order one of these for her but egghead went bankrupt before I got around to it I haven't told her yet :( anyone recall how to redirect dos stderr to a file? oh my I don't think you can you have to download a utility to do it un fscking believable where's masta??? I want to tell him just how much grief his form is!! Action: mdean is away: I'm busy Action: mdean is back (gone 00:00:02) Action: mdean is fast auto increments should be rather simple things to get right and NULL and 0 are completely different concepts oh, yeah definitely you'd think a relational database could figure that out but NOOOOOOO mysql is not a relational database insert 0 into an auto increment field and what happens? you get some other number *instead* of 0! but wait, theres more I like how it reuses deleted numbers if you insert a negative number into that field mdean: really? it can nolonger create any more autonumbers jcater: it does, but I don't like it Isomer: hehe - nice feature because the next one it generates will be MAXINT mdean: neither would I and the one after that will *also* be MAXINT even if 0..MAXINT is *empty* but wait! it gets better you can insert a value in then UPDATE it to 0 but never insert Action: Isomer slams my head against something hard and brick like mdean: mysql *thinks* it's a relational db how about it's handling of the timestamp data type? even though it wouldn't know relational if it was married to it insert a null into it, it populates with the current date/time if you have multiple timestamps in a table and do not specify them in an insert/update query, guess what it does? HALLELUAH!!!! populates the *first* timestamp with current date/time and leaves the rest alone finally got the damn thing working!!! mdean: it does that with DATETIME's too very very annoying when I say NULL, I mean *NULL* dammit! I find autonumbers even more entertaining since it appears to confuse NULL with 0 which really is a fundamental problem knows whats even worse than that? yes sigh jamest: the fact that they documents these as features? jamest: are my TriggerExtensions no longer implemented in trigger namespaces? people actually build business apps with mysql and can't figure out why some of us have issues with that jcater: no, they were causing a namespace collision of some sort jamest: I'm employeed to do that but we've convinced them to migrate to postgres ah, ok I think I documented it in the cvs log Isomer: you poor, poor person Action: jamest loathes mysql I loath it too I tend to do "other things" hey, it's OK that you have to lock the entire table for writing Action: jcater was brought up on Oracle, so he is still learning to deal w/postgresql even :) pg has a lot of similarities to Erkle mdean: they're fine grained enough to do entire table locks? Action: Isomer is amazed at how advanced their getting this day Isomer: what? you need more? s/this day/these days/ actually, a co worker pointed me to http://www.innodb.com/ today jcater: :) noone would require anything more fine grained than locking the entire machine so you get it all fixed up jcater? yes and no yes master/detail works right however? but no it doesn't auto-repopulate the recordset, so derek's form isn't quite working right :) (entering data is broken :) bah, who would want to enter data? Action: jamest can't believe he's installing cygwin so he can have a real size terminal window w/ stderr support rofl Action: jcater pities you Isomer: where you working btw? Business Systems Developments jamest: do you know if the pre-commit triggers are actually getting called correctly? Isomer: and more importantly is your name Andrew? Nope roflmao BSD! jcater: not a clue sigh Action: jcater doesn't like masta's form too much making me think Isomer: i think 75% of the NZr's I know are named Andr(u|ew) Action: jcater may have to use some trigger voodoo ahh jcater: is this the form w/ all the buttons? yes Action: Isomer is a "Perry" IIRC he wrote this while at Axis just to make life interesting and it was a pita then too jamest: it actually works, except that he's using an autoincrement field jcater: that's broken! argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Action: jamest does a panic dash in a circle er, um Action: Isomer recommends chairs that spin around to jamest, much faster don't be so melodramatic although you tend to bash your knees occasionly lol jcater: anything I can do to help valium? prozac? 15 minutes for this python rpm I dunno sigh as I, er, um, promised a windows user they'd have their form tomorrow what d'ya got um what do they need? i didn't write the form so I don't know it to work? but we use autoincrements alot so I imagine i'll get bit do you use it for foreign keys? typically [22:26] Last message repeated 1 time(s). (that's a double-sigh) i don't know on this specific form as my assistant wrote it lemme see if I can repopulate the records fairly easily but I do know my school contact database uses autoincrements alot Action: jcater sees 0.1.0 slowly drifting further into the future dude, I swore I tested this after SF SF? and didn't have an issue maybe I'm on crack you have something to test against? San Fransisco ah do you guys have a test suite to do automated testing? rofl Isomer: it's called "Derek" Isomer: yeah, it's called derek rofl x2 *sigh* damn thing works too well I calculated everything and I am $60,000 in debt woohoo! chillywilly: dang boy jcater: I'll modify the states.gfd demo real quick chillywilly: college tuition? those 1-900 numbers really sneak up on you don't they? yep + credit cards and other misc. loans rofl hmm $60,000 that or he has a secret SAP addiction plus I owe my mom lots of money thats nasty how much debt you got jc? Action: jcater is getting close to debt free except my mortgage but it took 4 long, long years of sack lunches yea heheh Action: jcater got a little too credit card happy in the beginning of his marriage but, haven't used one of those for 2 1/2 years now gack how debt did you have then? let me get demo from work chillywilly: about 1/3 of what you had... but I was able to pay for college as I went, so no student loans mine was pure, unadulterated (no excuse) debt state college? yes bah that's cheap :P I went to a private college one year plus, his being an AI help, he was able to sell spare cycles to SETI users it was really great but I couldn't afford it so transferred to state i hated private school had full ride there too felt like high school all over again well I think someone should've kicked me in the head when I was thinking about MSOE MSOE? Milwaukee School of Engineering not M$ damnit ;P http://www.msoe.edu jcater: hey! i think I dodged the bullet howdy hey looking for an example how so? Must Spend Outragously and Extravagently? something like that I don;t even have th engineering job to show for it yay! lambert (lambert@r-201.168.alltel.net) left irc: Ping timeout for lambert[r-201.168.alltel.net] I'm not finding any entry screens that require the key in a detail a total an utter waste of my time 5 minutes left on python2 but did you enjoy it? jamest: how are your details working then? they all reference data entered on other screens so I may autogenerate a id for a contact so they are lookup/maintain only; not creation right the creation forms are not master/detail Action: jamest does a happy dance yay Action: Isomer hands out party hats and turns the music up hmm your approach probably doesn't have the limitations that mine did when I wrote something similar it was all revolving around built up SQL statements Isomer: we don't even require an SQL backend :) yeah well I had problems when you tried to do updates on multiple tables particularly if you were updating a foreign key evening all ;) how goes the study? 750,00 lines of code for evolution like crap er, 750,000 not many GNUe gone over 10M yet? ;) ajmitch: well, that's about how many tylenol's we've gone thru hehe heh at work we can put materials down with jobs so we've got it configured to say how much coffee, water, beer, sanity, pizza the job required heheh our clients got confused when we billed them for 10% sanity hehe i like it ;) Isomer: so you're out working now, and hopefully with GNUe? I'm at work trying to get python2 installed so I can get GNUe working so I can give the boss a resonably convincing demo hehe, fun so I can convince him to try and pay me to work on it during work hours :) Action: ajmitch suggests apt-get install python2 hehe Isomer: where do you work? yikes lots of back log to read ello masta i'll hold his legs, jcater you get the ants derek: yeah, i just spent a few min reading thru what;s happened in the last few hours ;) hello chillywilly: Business Systems Developments (obscurely enough a company that does Business Apps under Linux) jamest: i didnt know you were so kinky plz shoot me so i can get out of debt with the life insurance money ;) heh gotta love cygwin chillywilly: two words junk bonds j/k it's happily installing cvs when I requested bash Action: chillywilly has a big fat policy...my grandma started it since I was a baby that was nice of her I am worht more dead anyway hehe rpm -i python2-2.1.1-2.i386.rpm error: failed dependencies: libcrypto.so.2 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libdb-3.2.so is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libexpat.so.0 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libreadline.so.4 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libssl.so.2 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libtcl.so.0 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libtix.so.0 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 libtk.so.0 is needed by python2-2.1.1-2 sigh this is going to take a while gah that's why I hate rpm gimmy apt anyday fucking grab those damn packages for me!!! apt-get install gnue and we'd be done by now apt-get install geas works pity there's no gnue virtual package that has dependendics on gnue-forms, gnue-geas, etc who want to be the official packager? ;) jbailey is silly ;) damn skimmed the log now its already full again he's our official debian bitch sigh no chance in catching up tonight he is? where are packages? me wants packages in sid now! Isomer: do yourself a favor derek: the first part of it was us bitching at you and your form compile python from source it gets rid of redhat stupid ass dependencies hmm now thats a plan the 2nd part was us bitching just about you hehe believe me im on rh6.2 on my laptop and it has made my life SOOOOOOOOOO much easier going to source for things all of gnue dependencies are source for me and i didnt have to upgrade 'anything but the dependencies' I should upgrade this poor box to 7.2 anyway i.e. i just got python, wx, etc etc yeah install debian :) just go debian :) can't we tried that it makes things real ugly oh? btw: jcater i see my work is done and i have given you sufficent hell in a single bug report we've got shared /home debian != ugly so you end up with things not working on some machines ugh derek: three independent bugs from that one bug report!!!! derek: isn't this the form from hell you tourtured me with when you wre in CA? rofl jamest: me torture forms developers? if so you managed it get a ton of milage out of it unheard of. pure blasephmy derek: as opposed to co-dependent bugs :) jamest: yes same form :) it really is a ball buster sounds useful then ;) we should automate it's testing cycle :) derek: it works now except for one small detail (i.e., you can't create new people :) reproduction is overrated but you can create all the new addresses for the existing people that you want actually, that's not entirely true you can create a new person, you just can't associate an address with them until a later session still working on that though later session? or until after they've been committed? the latter kinda sorta rofl you'd have to commit requery then add :) if I understand correctly btw: how you guys like the nice ditch gnue come work on compiere post to the list ? i have no problem with people doing this but doing it in mass is some what tacky derek: heh, yeah just read that 30sec ago generally if i see someone post a message and someonthing liek that to say i email them personally off list but oh well ?? question is do i respond in whole or in part? or ignore hmm depoends are the paying? i havent installed compiere so i cant speak too much to it he's basically expecting gnue developers to drop all gnue coding & join compoere :) but i can say mpl is not best of licenses for MOST developers that having to have oracle knocks out most of the rest and fact its all java kills another whole group yep you have to have oracle? i assume its rather hard coded stuff with tables to enter variable information (which i think is the OLD way of doing things) question is do we respond at all or not im firm believer of the best will crawl to the top i think maybe respond and that there is room for more than one ERP forced unsub? re: Kator Oh Yeah! Well, we'll take our python and go home! heh shrug, multiple competing products are a good idea look at irc servers :) jamest: rofl Isomer: we'd never force unsub especially since I lost the list admin password :) jamest: yeah, I was only kidding rofl! Isomer: you have some experience with irc servers... ;) ajmitch: speak of what you're knowledgable:) ;) you still maintainer? currently yes ok we're working on 2.10.11 currently it's having fun desyncing the network cool sounds like lotsa fun ;) Action: Isomer thinks coz one of the other coders attempts at desync "repair" went a little too far i guess it has to be able to handle high irc loads I wonder what our peak load of a server is with script kiddies flooding, probably quite high ;) well we've had 12,000 clients on one server probably more -Paris.Fr.Eu.Undernet.Org- Highest connection count: 14948 (14947 clients) hmm quite a few 15k most OS's really don't like that many open tcp connections what do you run it on? usually FreeBSD's not GNU/Hurd, i bet ;) although we've got them ranging from solaris through linux to various BSD's since it still needs that pfinet rewrite ;) yah been looking at zebra which says it wants to be the routing table translator ok Action: Isomer and a few friends got bored one day and created ourselves a mini internet useful so we've been teaching ourselves dynamic routing :) do you have a masquareded network? yep, all of two computers at the moment heh getting another one (p133) on saturday what we do is run software on the gateway that connects to everyone elses gateway machine via a VPN then run a dynamic routing protocol over it so once i got another monitor or two, i'll have a hurd box to play on ;) cool I should turn one our boxen at home to hurd yeah i've got to get install cds, too slow downloading it all we've got like 12 machines at the flat I don't think the flatmates will notice another one heh how many flatmates? Action: Isomer + 2 more + 1 for a total of 4 from sunday i'll be flatting, there'll only be 2 of us until february we'll only have about 5 machines we started with like 3 and ran out of ports on the 8 port switch yeah, i'm starting with 3 as well :) and I'm worried that we're going to fill up the 8 port hub you're in hamilton, right? yep what's your power bill like there? :) dunno I should check would be reasonably high with 12 machines the dec alpha was chewing power like there was no tomorrow :) t'was fun to play with hmm psu will have fun summarising this thread, entirely off-topic ;) :) he's going to have a fun day today :) hehe Action: Isomer has been off topic all day :) i should see if i can get my boss interested in GNUe ;) would be interesting give me a chance to play with it :) yeah :) sorta what you're trying to do? yeah well, theres nothing better than being paid to hack on OSS :) sure... being paid to do absolutely nothing :) doing absolutely nothing can be boring coding's more fun yeah poop did my connectino die? dunno derek: nice response on the mailing list :) freaking java weenies that's what both those projects are and that one is only semi-free if you can call it that semifree? you have to use prop. tools good response, derek :) oracle... ugh hmm not many people happen to have oracle lying about Action: Isomer ponders postgres is more common who wants to haveit lygin about anyway? doesn't java have jODBC or something? "One main differentiation is that complex software like ERP requires additional licenses. For Compiere the following licenses are required: * Database (Oracle 8i) * Reporting (InetSoft) * Rule Engine (ILOG) " we are defintely not Java fans gah that is haf assed they don't even deserve to use the term Open Source ;P phpnuke has multiple db support now, so it says they use the term free software actually much less Free Software Mr_You: really? kewl http://phpnuke.org/downloads.php cause it has been a mysql whore for a while now you don't like mysql, i take it just what is so bad about it? ;) ajmitch: I am not alone Action: ajmitch doesn't know the differences no transaction support no sub selects not very SQL compliant admin tools suck too, imho ajmitch: scroll back chillywilly: phpmyadmin imho is very very nice Isomer: how far? there's also a webmin module for SquidGuard ;-) Isomer: there is phppgadmin in case anyone uses that.. web interface to http blocker ajmitch: yeah there is, however phpmyadmin has a certain "polish" to it IMHO :) mysql is a toy db just admit it on the other hand, it's a nice admin tool to a horrible program :) toy would be overrating it? ajmitch: grab back for " there's mysql-navigator ;) s/grab/grep/ it is an alternate file system interface :D mysql - the db for ppl who like to make using files fun! heh mysql is a SQL file system ;-) Isomer: it's a good thing you used the tag ;) Mr_You: ;) cool, phppgadmin works fine here ;) there is phppgadmin also same here greatbridge seemed to support it, but I dunno now.. Action: ajmitch had problems with it awhile ago, stupid mistakes ;) Nick change: mdean -> mdean-[restingEyes] no! eyes must be on monitor at all times mdean-[restingEyes] who told you could stop coding? chillywilly: are you coding at the moment? l8r jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201089.flinthills.com) left #gnuenterprise. trying anyway I got a nice race condition hehe and adeadlock too but I know why fix it then I am damnit get back to coding ajmitch! everyone get to coding now!!! or else... or else...? doesn't matter what it is what you gonna do? just write the code heh swim over here & beat up us kiwis? you betcha I am about to whoop you hmm hah anyway... code... hmm in the .tgz version of gnue-forms is there supposed to be stuff under "Edit"? you mean gnue-designer ? I wonder if it is just appending the string to the freaking string stream doh gah!!! I am stupid yeah sorry Error processing
tag [I do not recognize the "width" attribute hmm ack I suspect I've got a real old version of designer :) um could be ;) yeah :) and it doesn't like new forms :) --- Thu Nov 8 2001