[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> I notice we still have a python21 setting in our gnue.conf :)
<jamest> whoops
<jcater> :)
<jcater> we probably should make the pointsize 12 instead of 14
<jcater> as this is large :)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i'm just happy it's working
<jcater> yes
<jcater> as am I 
<jamest> as you must be looking at a form
<jamest> i wonder
<jcater> good ol' helloworld2.gfd
<jamest> ok, it does honor gnue.cond
<jamest> conf
<jcater> :)
<jcater> cool
Action: jcater is excited
<jamest> fwiw: wxpython 2.3.2b6 looks better under windows than 2.3.1
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> is this gfclient.exe 2.3.1 or 2.3.2b6?
<jamest> 2.3.1
<jamest> and the toolbar is corrupted
<jamest> it's an old bug
<jamest> that 2.3.2 seems to fix
<jamest> oh yeah,
<jamest> all my wxPythons are hybrid
<jamest> so they do debug dumps
<jamest> on exit
<jcater> :)
<jamest> and we've built this thing as a console app
<jamest> thus the dos box in the background
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<jcater> jamest: did you only install the pypgsql and mysql-python drivers?
<jamest> yip
<jamest> i tried the others
<jamest> that I could find
<jamest> but the interbase one didn't import for some reason
<jamest> and the oracle was a no go
<jcater> rock!
<jcater> my extras thingy works
<jamest> good
<jcater> not that I had any doubts :)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> so we're pretty much down to doc updates now right?
<jcater> best I can tell
<jcater> unless masta finds problems
<jamest> i vote we not let him look
<jcater> IOW, make ChanServ kick him off for the next 2 days
<jcater> or gnuebot
<jcater> or bigbrother
<jamest> :)
<jcater> !jcater_
<jcater> I'm headed to bed
<jamest> i need sleep
<jcater> nite all
<jamest> see you tomorrow
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<ghunt_> hi all
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<jamest> good day
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<jcater> yo
[07:43] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> 'sup?
<jcater> nuttin much
<jamest> at work?
<jcater> yip
<jcater> early start
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<derek> yo
<derek> yes, somebody is here
<jamest> 'sup
<jcater> howdy
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<ra3vat> hi all
<jamest> hi
<jcater> howdy
<derek> ok we have paid gnue developer full time now officially
<derek> we REALLY need dcl
<derek> especially if we get college interns
<derek> so i come to you guys and ask where do you want me to sic the pit bull?
<jcater> derek: there's one problem
<jcater> that assumes we're organized
<derek> well give me an account somewhere
Action: derek cant find root to ash 
<derek> but i will set up dcl and get it going
<derek> i will gladly manage the interns and the new employee :)
<derek> bbs must leave arggggggg
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<dneighbo> work is dreadful, work is fun, joy joy joy
<ToyMan> hey dneighbo
<jcater> dneighbo: doesn't work
<jcater> I've been telling myself that for years
<jcater> it's still not fun
<ToyMan> hey, speak for yourself ;)
Action: ToyMan has fun
<dneighbo> i had fun when i wrote free software full time
<dneighbo> babysitting and interfacing to prop software is just dreadful most of the time :(
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<dneighbo> hey groovy new news at gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo> jcLunch when you get back check for correctness
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Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater
<jcater> dneighbo: looks great
<dneighbo> just wanted to make sure not telling too many lies
<dneighbo> i really liked the infoworld article
<jcater> yes, that is a good article
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> we need t-shirts
<dneighbo> yes we do
<dneighbo> we need a few things
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> maybe we can discuss today or tonight
<jcater> can I slap my people around???
<dneighbo> jcater: only if you use 'official gnue licensed' trout
<dneighbo> jamest did you get around to posting windows test builds?
<jcater> dneighbo: just sent you that email
<jamest> gfclient at www.gnuenterprise.org/~jamest/pre-release
<jamest> designer isn't done yet
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<ToyMan> jamest: you around?
<jamest> sort of
<ToyMan> dneighbo sez you're an nfs mount guru
<jamest> um, ok
<ToyMan> could you spare some hints?
<ToyMan> trying 2 different things:
<ToyMan> 1. mount the fs /home/~ dir to newworkstation /home/~
<ToyMan> 2. mount fs /usr/ports/distfiles to workstation/ports/distfiles
<ToyMan> so the ports collection only has to download once..
<ToyMan> i think my /etc/export line is foobar
<ToyMan> it reads /home /usr/ports/distfiles/ -alldirs -maproot=0 172.16.0.109
<jamest> ?
<jamest> what OS
<ToyMan> fbsd
<ToyMan> i'm getting permission denied
<jamest> adn there is not /etc/exportfs 
<ToyMan> um, in fbsd it's /etc/exports
<ToyMan> adn?
<ToyMan> and??
<ToyMan> hmmm. well, back to the man pages..
<dneighbo> ToyMan he is getting old..... probably either stilling trying to remember what he was going to say :)
<ToyMan> cleaning his dentures ;)
<jamest> sorry
<ToyMan> no problemo
<jamest> i have not done fbsd exports in a long, long, um long time
<jamest> IIRC after you setup the exports file
<jamest> you have to run shareall 
<jamest> IIRC
<ToyMan> oh well, it's the learning curve thing
<ToyMan> IIRC? <- what's this?
<ToyMan> havn't seen a ref to shareall, maybe things have changed a bit
<jamest> If I Recall Correctly
<jamest> hmmm
<ToyMan> ahhh.  always wondered what that one meant
<jamest> could you try the command
<jamest> exports
<jamest> to see if it says something?
<ToyMan>  Command not found.
<jamest> export<tab>
<ToyMan> /etc/exports is a file where you set up your exports
<ToyMan> nada
<jamest> and you don't have anything firewalled?
<ToyMan> it's a local mount
<ToyMan> inter network..
<ToyMan> not intra
<ToyMan> or did i get the prefixes backwords?
<ToyMan> heh, nfs mount over a 28.8 modem...
<ToyMan> that would be painful
<ToyMan> kinda like windoze file sharing ;)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> and portmap is running?
<ToyMan> yep
<ToyMan> I'm pretty sure it's my exports file..
<ToyMan> I had just /home/stuq and it worked
<ToyMan> mount -w bucky:/home/stuq /mnt <- no prob
<ToyMan> but when I add additional mount points in /etc/exports
<ToyMan> it coughs
<ToyMan> well, gotta go, thanks for trying
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<dneighbo> hmmm we got an HR proposal today... very interesting
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<madlocke> hi...
<madlocke> somebody told me you need windows testers... oh dear why did I try this ;)
<madlocke> jamest: you are here?
<jamest> :)
<jamest> hi
<jamest> madlocke: did you send those files?
<madlocke> not yet... have to change some things... to this later... first some more important things...
<madlocke> I tried to work with windows as I already said
<madlocke> using WinCVS to checkout...
<madlocke> cvs converts everything from lf to cr+lf
<madlocke> ok so far... but not for image files... 
<dneighbo> quick grab him, bolt him to the chair... muhahahhaa
<madlocke> these files are not marked binary in cvs...
<dneighbo> madlocke i think we need to make the cvs server do this
<dneighbo> i.e. extension types of .... automatically check them in as binary
<dneighbo> if we are not already 
Action: dneighbo is vaguelly remembering this on another project where i used wincvs
<jamest> madlocke: we need windows testers of the files in www.gnuenterprise.org/~jamest/pre-release :)
<madlocke> dneighbo: would be great to handle this automatically. manually it works by adding with -kb option
<dneighbo> madlocke is there anyway you can tar/gz your current work with webware and email to jamest or info@gnue.org
<jamest> the designer one is known broken btw
<dneighbo> even if its not complete or is getting more done to it?
<dneighbo> it would make the natives here much less restless. :)
<madlocke> jamest: I have to talk about gfd files with you first...
<madlocke> jamest: one bad example for a gfd file is ./samples/location/zipcode_maint.gfd
<madlocke> jamest: can you open this so it is easier talking about it...?
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<dneighbo> rofl, you want a really bad example look for ./samples/track/forms/contact_manager.gfd
<Isomer> mornin' all!
<madlocke> dneighbo: not bad because it is big... another prob...
<jamest> madlocke: talk away, but I'm kinda busy
<madlocke> jamest: you see maybe that there are 3 labels and after this the list of entries...
<jamest> so responce may be a bit slow
<ajmitch> hey madlocke
Action: dneighbo digs for that smelly crappie basket he has at work... to get a good one to thwap jamest with 
<madlocke> jamest: the only relation between labels and entries is position on screen in x,y coordinates... you understand the prob?
<madlocke> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> info cvs, it talks about binary files
<dneighbo> there was talk of binding a label to an entry
<jamest> madlocke: that is correct
<madlocke> dneighbo: it is already easier if the label tag is near the entry tag...
<dneighbo> or basically autocreating the lable based off a property of entry
<madlocke> because if I just ignore any positions and read from top to bottom, the relation is still there (if order is correc)
<dneighbo> yes
<Isomer> where can I find "mx" ?
<madlocke> jamest: can you install webware and then I send the files and do installation together with you? maybe it is easier because probably if have to write less text ;)
<madlocke> some words about installtion on windows system...
<madlocke> yes after some hours I had my first form on the screen ;)
<dneighbo> installing postgres drivers eh Isomer :)
<Isomer> dneighbo: yeah :/
<jamest> madlocke: I'll have to install webware at home, i'll try and get done tonight or tomorrow
<dneighbo> look in the README or INSTALL file
<dneighbo> it has the url there
<dneighbo> madlocke if you can be here in like 3 hours or so
<jamest> madlocke: : the files in pre-release are setup.exe's
<dneighbo> i will do the webware install with you
<jamest> it takes minutes
<dneighbo> and fully document
<dneighbo> so we can get documented for others
<jamest> no python, drivers, etc needed
<dneighbo> we should get hte webware version installed on ash as well :)
<madlocke> dneighbo: if I can still sit on my chair in 3 hours, then yes... ;) at the moment it is 23:00 here ;)
<jamest> Isomer: http://www.lemburg.com/files/python/mxDateTime.html
<madlocke> jamest: id did a cvs co and then used the install scripts...
<madlocke> jamest: ok maybe not the right way for good install ;)
<ajmitch> webware is running on my box here...
<madlocke> jamest: but... in setup.py you are changing/creating gfclient file
<madlocke> jamest: in this file there are some pathes... but there are other pathes in gnue.conf
<madlocke> jamest: these I had to change manually... why?
<madlocke> jamest: another question: why installing everything in python path?
<madlocke> jamest: why not something like ".\program files\gnue" and add the according pathes to PYTHON_PATH at startup
<madlocke> jamest: I think finding modules, etc is a more general problem in gnue not only for gnuef, so maybe there can be a solution in gnue-common
<jamest> madlocke: try the setup.exe's
<jamest> they address most of what you speak of
<jamest> everything is now in Program Files\gnue
<jamest> the old setup was our first attempt just to prove she'd run
<madlocke> ok
<madlocke> so the setup will change later in cvs too?
<madlocke> because maybe someone tries the same ?
<jamest> nope
<jamest> cvs on win32 is a developers install
<jamest> then in each packages doc/installer
<jamest> are instructions/files for building the exe's which are installed for a user properly
<madlocke> great this helps I think
<jamest> the plus side of this is the setup.exe's _should_ be networkable
<jamest> where as python itself doesn't support network installs
<jamest> :)
<madlocke> :)
<madlocke> how are the exes created? with py2exe?
<jamest> nope
<jamest> it doesn't support PyXML so py2exe files
<jamest> fails
<jamest> McMillian Installer and Inno
<jamest> it's all in the README
<jamest> fwiw: we just got this up last night
<madlocke> ok... like all the time... rftm.. understand... :) it's just new for me that there is any doc ;)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> we promise it won't happen again
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<dneighbo> bad coder, no donut
<dneighbo> you hear that jason NO DONUT
<chillywilly> what did jcater do now?
<dneighbo> documentation
<chillywilly> aaaah!
<chillywilly> how dare you do such a vile and evil thing'
<jamest> yeah jcater!  how could you document the windows setup.exe stuff!  It's all your doing! 
Action: jamest sneaks out the back while they flog jcater
<dneighbo> actually he wrote db driver docs
<dneighbo> just your installer docs reminded me of his punishment
<dneighbo> btw: masta is testing windows installer so running is probably better than sneaking at this point
Action: jamest puts it in "haul ass" mode
<dneighbo> self preservation is a good thing(tm)
<dneighbo> i cant tell if it worked
<dneighbo> installed yes
Action: jamest tosses pieces of jcater code on ground behind him to hopefully slow the beast
<dneighbo> but if i click on icon it opens dos shell flashes somethign and closes dos shell
<dneighbo> same from menu
<jamest> that's cause you don't have a filename
<jamest> double click on a .gfd file
<jamest> or alter properties to add a gfd file after the exe
<jamest> i was hoping someone <cough>derek<cough>
<jamest> would do up a little intro form 
<jamest> saying welcome, here are a few features (no db links)
<jamest> that we could put on that icon
<dneighbo> i can do that
<dneighbo> BUT one thing where did it install the samples?
<dneighbo> i dont see them under the tree
<jamest> it doesn't yet
<jamest> i can add them, just a sec
<dneighbo> if you add them then i will verify it works
<dneighbo> and then whip up a simple little form or rather SET of forms :)
<dneighbo> one form that has a list of different things
<dneighbo> then when you click on the button it opens that sample
<dneighbo> like the wxWindows sampler does
<jcater> dneighbo: I think he meant something that could be finished in, say, the next 5 minutes :)
<dneighbo> i think that only takes 5 minutes
<dneighbo> if designer was working on windows :)
Action: dneighbo is like microsoft, doing a compliment and a slam in same sentence, though i didnt require payment....hmmm guess that leaves room for improvement
<jamest> dneighbo: new designer uploading now that works
<jcater> :)
<jcater> or, :)p
<jamest> jcater: get ready to time him
<madlocke> someone did already some work an a geometry engine?
<madlocke> an a = on a
<jamest> yes, but we never saw/got the code
<madlocke> who did it?
<jamest> one of the reasons we got nervous when you left 
<jamest> :)
<madlocke> understand...
<jamest> dneighbo: new .exe's in that pre-release dir
<jamest> madlocke: perlpoet iirc
<madlocke> hm... never saw him....
<jcater> jamest: I'm thinking we should rename the <Right Click>|edit feature to <Right Click>|Open in Designer
<jamest> ok
<jamest> with me
<jamest> as for adding the samples
<jamest> I can do that
<jamest> however
<jamest> we should get a "real" group of samples first
<jamest> as right now we have a mess :)
<jcater> ok
<jcater> how are the two related?
<jamest> huh?
<jamest> two what?
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> missed the 
<jcater> <jamest> as for adding the samples
<jcater> :)
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<Isomer> and while I'm complaining about things
<Isomer> you guys really should catch the "no such provider" exception
<Isomer> and throw a dialog box at the screen
<jamest> Isomer: you getting a DB0000 dump
<jamest> or just a nice format text mesage
<jamest> anyone try the -a.exe's yet?
<jamest> (other than jcater)
<jamest> i wanna know if the icons in designer look pink
<Isomer> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/GConnections.py", line 227, in _load_dbdriver
<Isomer> DB000:     raise GDataObjects.ProviderNotSupportedError, \
<Isomer> DB000: gnue.common.GDataObjects.ProviderNotSupportedError: No database driver found for provider type 'pypgsql'
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> I tried installing them
<Isomer> but ran out of space
<Isomer> and got a "setup.exe is corrupt" error 
<Isomer> but that was probably due to running out of space on the d/
<Isomer> l
<Isomer> unfortunately some urgent work has arrived here today
<Isomer> so I'm not going to be experimenting as much
<jamest> ok
<jamest> thanks for the error report
<dneighbo> ok downloading now
<madlocke> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<madlocke> DB000:   File "gfclient", line 41, in ?
<madlocke> DB000:     GFClient().run()
<madlocke> DB000:   File "D:\Programme\Python21\gnue\forms\GFClient.py", line 112, in run
<madlocke> DB000:     self.runForm(formfile, self.disableSplash)
<madlocke> DB000:   File "D:\Programme\Python21\gnue\forms\GFClient.py", line 130, in runFo
<madlocke> rm
<madlocke> DB000:     self.getConnectionManager().setLoginHandler(self._ui.UILoginHandler()
<madlocke> )
<madlocke> DB000: AttributeError: 'None' object has no attribute 'setLoginHandler'
<madlocke> this is when no connections.conf exists... better msg would be good here too
<Isomer> I also mentioned last night that if I click "next" again in the wizard it says "no such attribute pypgsql" or something similar
<chillywilly> madlocke!
<chillywilly> he lives!
<jcater> Isomer: I fixed the second problem in CVS
<madlocke> chilly: some parts still live... yes ;)
<jcater> but as for the first one, we do need better error handling in that part
<Isomer> excellent :)
<Isomer> if you want to be really nice
<Isomer> you can put a "? Help" button on the dialog
<chillywilly> madlocke: you got some code for those web forms? ;)
<Isomer> that sends you  to www.gnuenterprise.org/errors/no.such.provider.html
<Isomer> which has a FAQ about that error and what might cause it, possible solutions, etc :)
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<madlocke> chilly: yep... have to change some things.. but have some things yes... talked already a bit about it with jamest and dneighbo, but did not send code yet...
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<madlocke> maybe I am too stupid but where are thos setup*.exes ?
<chillywilly> madlocke: ok
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenteprise.org/~jamest/
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenteprise.org/~jamest/pre-release/
<dneighbo> actually
<madlocke> thx...
<madlocke> oh dear... I want my faster connection... :( bad phone company...
<madlocke> hope tomorrow I'll get it...
<dneighbo> hell yes designer windows install works and it kicks SERIOUS ASS
<dneighbo> looks better on windows :)
<dneighbo> cept for the pink icon back grounds :)
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> good, I'm not mental
<dneighbo> where did you put the samples?
<Isomer> rofl
<dneighbo> im too lame to find them
<chillywilly> jcater: that's open to debate
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> i don't get it
<dneighbo> i do have an old form on here
<jamest> I fixed the pink icons 
<dneighbo> i thin there is a python issue
<dneighbo> as it says cant find form 'c:\\somepath\\otherpath\\form.gfd
<dneighbo> instead of c:\form\path\form.gfd
<dneighbo> when calling it do you have to do c:/form/path/form.gfd
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> c:\\form\\path\\form.gfd
<dneighbo> also where are samples :)
<jamest> no samples in setup.exe yet
<jamest> i have to run
<jamest> make gripe list and jump me when I return :)
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<jcater> dneighbo: from the command prompt?
<jcater> 'cause this works for me
<jcater> C:\Program Files\gnue\forms>gfclient p:\it\gnue\cvs\gnue\gnuef\samples\helloworld2.gfd
<dneighbo> ok massive problems :)
<dneighbo> yes from command prompt
<dneighbo> but getting massive errors on double clicking
<dneighbo> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/
<dneighbo> error1.bmp
<dneighbo> error2.bmp
<dneighbo> form.bmp
<dneighbo> will show errors
<dneighbo> i need to run will be back in an hour or so
<dneighbo> and explain more fully though i wont have this system to recreate until tomorrow :)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> are those large files?
<jcater> edit your c:\program files\gnue\etc\gnue.conf and change prefix from c:\python21 to c:\program files\gnue (jamest forgot to do that before making the EXE's)
<jcater> or have you already done that?
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<dneighbo> no i havent done that 
<dneighbo> and probably explains some of the problems :)
<jcater> yes
<jcater> that bit me too
<jcater> I yelled at him enough for the both of us
<jcater> :)
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<dneighbo> yes that fixed the problem :)
<dneighbo> btw: shouldnt that be DYNAMIC
<dneighbo> as you can choose WHERE to install iirc
<dneighbo> so hardcoding the gnue.conf could cause issues if someone picks a custom install location
<dneighbo> or so it would seem
<jcater> well
<jcater> we were discussing that
<dneighbo> or just doing baby steps for now :)
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> ok right off bat i can think of a few things
<dneighbo> one is installing the desktop icon is pointless
<jcater> for gfclient, you mean?
<dneighbo> i think it should install it but have the default sample form pointed too
<dneighbo> so if someone clicks it they get a formt
<dneighbo> that says edit this to point to form of your choice :)
<dneighbo> or somethign
<dneighbo> OR
<jcater> well
<dneighbo> we need to make it so that if you run gfclient
<dneighbo> and do not pass it a form file name
<jcater> that is what jamest wanted that intro form for
<dneighbo> it opens a dialog asking you to choose a form with a file chooser
<dneighbo> this would be helpful i think
<dneighbo> anyhow
<dneighbo> even on linux
<dneighbo> but making these suckers double clickable is pretty sweet and kills most of that need :)
<dneighbo> so maybe scratch that idea
<dneighbo> anyhow must run will look at making an 'intro' form whne i get home
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<Isomer> what unit's are coordinates in?
<jcater> characters
<Isomer> ahh
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> cute
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<jcater> argh!!
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<jcater> damn
<ajmitch> hehe
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<ajmitch> you scared him away
<jcater> notjamest: I have stuff to commit before you get involved
<ajmitch> ah, it's notjamest this time :)
Nick change: notjamest -> jamest
<jamest> did i break something?
<jcater> no
<jcater> but I added "components"
<jcater> so you can install "Sample Form Definitions"
<jcater> or "Sample Configuration Files"
<jamest> cool
<jcater> lemme commit
<jamest> inno rocks
<jcater> then it's my turn to run home
<jamest> 'course it's written in delphi so it's got to be good
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> don't let derek know
<jcater> ok 
<jcater> committed
<jcater> the Sample Forms doesn't quite do what I want it to... it doesn't include a directory structure, only the helloworld2.gfd and contact.gfd samples :(
<jcater> bbiab
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<jamest> did derek leave?
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<ajmitch> yo jbailey
<jamest> hi
<jbailey> hallo
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<stbain> jamest: you alive?
<jamest> yip
<stbain> I downloaded the setup.exe
<stbain> and installed it
<stbain> would you like to see the error I get when I fire up gfclient.exe?
<jamest> you bet
<stbain> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<stbain> DB000:   File "<string>", line 54, in ?
<stbain> DB000:   File "c:\python21\gnue\forms\gfclient.py", line 112, in run
<stbain> DB000:   File "c:\python21\gnue\forms\gfclient.py", line 137, in runForm
<stbain> DB000: IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'C:\\python21/forms/gfclien
<stbain> t.exe.gfd'
<stbain> I have ActivePython installed
<stbain> think that's screwin' me up?
<jcater> stbain: you need to edit c:\program files\gnue\etc\gnue.conf and change prefix=c:\python21 to c:\program files\gnue
<jcater> that was a small tafu on our part
<stbain> no problemo
<jbailey> Why do I always think of that as the girlfriend client? =)
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> that'd explain the crashing :)
<jamest> nope
<jamest> it's the gnue.conf error jcater spoke of
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> wait
<stbain> [forms]
<stbain> prefix=C:\program files\gnue
<stbain> FormDir =%(prefix)s/forms
<stbain> there
<stbain> that should do it?
<jamest> you're running it from the icon right?
<stbain> right
<jamest> that icon won't work :)
<stbain> lol
<stbain> ok
<stbain> from the command line?
<jamest> find a .gfd file and double click on it
<stbain> ahhh
<stbain> ok
<jamest> or add a gfd file to the end of the exe line in the icon's properties
<jamest> as gnuef will not run unless given a file
<stbain> ok
<stbain> hrmmm.... doesn't look like any gfd files shipped in the setup.exe
<jamest> nope
<jamest> oversight on my part
<jamest> jcater! you're back
<Isomer> this is why it's a "pre" release :)
<jamest> oh yeah
<jcater> jamest: you just now notice that?
<jamest> it just sunk in, I'm doing homework
<jcater> :)
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<jamest> i have no windows machine
<jamest> so it'll be a while before I can do anything w/ install
<jcater> sigh
<jamest> wife has need for it
<jcater> I can play here at home
<jcater> as I have my laptop hooked up
<jcater> dude.. what time is it?
<jamest> um
<jamest> 6:30
<jamest> CST
<jcater> thanks
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<jcater> jamest: on that math homework
<jcater> if it comes up, 2+2 = 4
<Isomer> today's mysql rant
<Isomer> mysqldump doesn't generate sql that mysql will read
<jamest> jcater: dude! thanks! I've been hammering on that one for about an hour
<jamest> jcater: but I need a proof
<jcater> lol
<jcater> did you see the proof I posted about women == evil?
<jamest> no
<chillywilly> lets have it dude
<jcater> http://www.funkypages.com/girls_evil
<Isomer> oh and more mysql joy
<Isomer> you can create tables with "-"'s in them (somehow)
<Isomer> but you can't drop them
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> found it
<Isomer> ``'s
<jcater> brb
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<jcater> yes, it's me
<jamest> yea
<chillywilly> ack
<chillywilly> take it back
<chillywilly> I don't like it
Nick change: jcater -> retacj
<chillywilly> hey retacj
Nick change: retacj -> jcater
Nick change: chillywilly -> ylliwyllihc
Nick change: jcater -> chillywilly
Action: chillywilly trout slaps ylliwyllihc
Nick change: chillywilly -> jcater
<ylliwyllihc> damn
<ylliwyllihc> try that again
<ylliwyllihc> I dare you
Nick change: jcater -> chillywilly
Action: chillywilly trout slaps ylliwyllihc again
Nick change: chillywilly -> jcater
<ylliwyllihc> plz sir may I have some more
Action: jcater wonders if ylliwyllihc is ever productive?
<ylliwyllihc> I am working on something always
<ylliwyllihc> not always GNUe though
<ylliwyllihc> not for a long while
<ylliwyllihc> actually
<ylliwyllihc> :(
<jamest> too busy work'n on the hurd eh?
<jcater> GSim
<ylliwyllihc> gsim yes
Nick change: ylliwyllihc -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> I haven't done Hurd hacking in eons
<chillywilly> I leave that tot he real hackers
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: jamest feels for psu
<Isomer> Gsim?
<chillywilly> dude
<chillywilly> my friggin thread-safe singleton method is fscking me up
<chillywilly> gah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<chillywilly> Isomer: a simulation library I am writing
<Isomer> ah
<Isomer> what are you simulating?
<chillywilly> it is a generic library for discrete event simulation
<chillywilly> you can simulate all sorts of things
<chillywilly> just gotta code it
<chillywilly> I saw a simuation of CSMA/CD
<chillywilly> simulation
<chillywilly> Simulation *
<chillywilly> Simulation::Instance ()
<chillywilly> {
<chillywilly>   // First check
<chillywilly>   if (instance == NULL)
<chillywilly>     {
<chillywilly>       // Ensure serialization
<chillywilly>       lock.EnterMutex ();
<chillywilly>       
<chillywilly>       // Double check
<chillywilly>       if (instance == NULL)
<chillywilly> 	instance = new Simulation;
<chillywilly>     }
<chillywilly>   lock.LeaveMutex ();
<chillywilly>   return instance;
<chillywilly> }
<chillywilly> that should be thread safe right ;)
Action: chillywilly borrowed that
<chillywilly> well looks like I just need more debugging statements until I can figure out where it is hanging/deadlocked
<chillywilly> :(
<Isomer> is it me
<Isomer> or are you leaving the mutex more often than your entering it?
<chillywilly> it is only once
<chillywilly> calling leave twice doesn't hurt
<chillywilly> but it is only called once
<chillywilly> I got that methods from C++ journal
<chillywilly> method
<chillywilly> or some crap
<chillywilly> accept I am using the Mutex class in GNU Common C++
<chillywilly> GSim will be GNU Sim soon I hope
<ajmitch> maybe...
<chillywilly> maybe?
<chillywilly> you doubt me?>
<ajmitch> yes
<derek> zup j's
<jamest> getting ready to leave
<derek> jamest did you read backlog and get my messages?
<jamest> no
<derek> i think jcater beat you enough on the hardcoded gnue.conf entry
<derek> the other one was making the desktop icon and other link call a sample form
<jamest> derek: you gnue'ing?
<derek> so people dont click and go damn its broke
<derek> jamest either gnue'ing or simcity'ing
<derek> :)
<chillywilly> ajmitch: ?
<jamest> derek: I mentioned that one w/ hopes you'd make the intro form
<derek> well i have a few hcs hacks to apply first and then i was going to gnue
<jamest> we need to decide what we still need for release
<derek> but 3 new dvd's came today so i might get called into movie action :)
<jamest> i'm thinking a simple users guide would be nice
<derek> i will look at a form and we should include the tech ref
<derek> and we need to make a 'manual' for designer
<derek> that has 'pictures'
<derek> etc
<jamest> dang
<derek> i will look into some of this end of week
<jcater> sigh
<derek> for now our 0.1.0 can live w/o it
<jcater> yay!
<derek> just including techref will be enough
<jamest> good
<derek> imho
<derek> as unlike the source we can readily post docs to website and have people grab
<jamest> we have the installer and a URL link to the docs
<jamest> in the startup menu
<derek> and not have them risk damaging too much :)
<jamest> then they are always up to date :)
<derek> that would work :)
<derek> i have to run to store will be back soon
<jamest> l8r
Action: jamest is away: taekwondo
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
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<derek> bbathm 
<jcater> bbathm?
<derek> be back after the movie (oops bbatm)
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Action: jamest is back (gone 01:41:00)
<jcater> wb
<jcater> did you kick some butt?
<jamest> um
<jamest> that 12 yr old didn't stand a chance!
<jamest> j/k
<jamest> tonight was pressure point class
<jamest> where we learn to hurt people with less effort :)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> some people can do it via IRC
<jcater> is that what you're practicing on us?
<jamest> you bet
<jamest> lyx
<jcater> I still can't get lyx working
<jamest> apt-get install lyx
<jcater> the sgmltools.org site has been down for me
<jamest> what should be in a users guide?
<jamest> jcater: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sgmltools-lite/
<jamest> jcater: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-sgml.html?dwzone=linux#resources
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> now I have no excuse
Action: jamest laughs evilly
<jcater> user == end luser or user == end developer?
<jamest> user = end user
<jamest> designer would have different guide 
<jcater> well, an introduction of what gnuef is and how it fits in to the GNUe architecture
<jcater> what a gfd is and how designer can be used to create it
<jcater> (one paragraph each :)
<jcater> Then a summary of a basic user session? like describing what committing, inserting record, creating record, etc do
<jcater> I really dunno
<jamest> ok
<jamest> thanks
<jcater> yay
<jcater> we have samples
<ajmitch> cool
<jamest> cool
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> after all that, I just found the "recursesubdirs" flag
<jamest> jcater: I'm sorry man
<jcater> I looked and looked and looked
<jamest> i read about that yesterday and forgot all about it
<jcater> then when I finally had a working solution
<jcater> it was the first thing that popped up in help when researching the next problem
<jcater> :(
<jamest> jcater: you get lyx up yet?
<jcater> finishing the tests of windows inno install
<jcater> just committed my stuff
<jamest> cool
<Isomer> you got a new version up
<Isomer> ?
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<jamest> not anything beyond
<jamest> gfclient-0.1.0-a
<jamest> er
<jamest> gfclient-pre-0.1.0-a
<Isomer> ah ok
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<jcater> sigh
<jcater> jade won't build
<jamest> at least it's consistant
<jcater> thanks
<Isomer> heh
Action: jcater curses himself under his breath for not doing Debian
<jamest> jcater: there is also openjade
<jamest> a jade replacement that i think is seeing more activity
<jcater> 'course, if I'd stuck with my FreeBSD install, I coulda done a ports install by now :)
<jamest> um
Action: jcater grumbles under his breath
<jamest> it's all good
<jamest> any luck?
<jcater> well, I have openjade and sgmltools-lite installed
<jcater> but still no docbook support in lyx
<jamest> you have to edit->reconfigure
<jamest> _if_ you have the docbook stylesheets properly installed
<jamest> then she should pick them up and you're set
<jcater> sigh
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> gnue uses corba?
<ajmitch> at the moment
<jamest> geas does
<Isomer> does it also use the gnome corba stuff?
<Isomer> ie, does this integrate well with gnome?
<ajmitch> it uses ORBit
<jamest> no
<ajmitch> dunno what you mean about integrating with gnome :)
<jamest> there will be no depedencies on a desktop
<jamest> as some of us have headless servers
<ajmitch> and eventually no dependencies on CORBA, too
Action: ajmitch wonders why someone would run gnome on a server...
<Isomer> is gnome only a desktop?
<Isomer> I had the sneaking suspicion that gnome was a framework
<Isomer> which people had used for a desktop
<ajmitch> it's sorta a desktop framework :)
<jamest> i think it had grand ideas at the start
<jcater> that'd be my analysis: it's a desktop framework :)
<jamest> the whole Network Object Model gNOMe
<jamest> but i don't think that's what she became
<jamest> I don't have a problem working well w/ gnome but gnue will not require gnome
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> 'k
Action: Isomer should learn more about gnome
<nickr> that'd be cool if there was a Bonobo adapter for gaes, embed gnue objects into your spreadsheet
<Isomer> yeah!
<ajmitch> nickr: you volunteering? ;)
<jcater> nickr: that'll be possible with our GComm layer
<nickr> ajmitch: talk to me in 3 months when I'm done with my first gnue projcet :)
<jcater> someone'll just have to write an adapter (which won't be difficult)
<ajmitch> or what about a bonobo forms client?
<nickr> yea
<nickr> that'd be especially useful
<Isomer> ajmitch: now, that could be funky
<nickr> bleh, I'm really disillusioned about existing programming languages
<derek> hahaha on the gnome comments
<derek> jamest i have lots of ideas for ENDUSER manual
<Isomer> and besides
<derek> and it includes lots of pictures (Seriously)
<Isomer> you guys seem to be collecting dependancies at the moment :)
<jamest> derek: I've started the manual
<nickr> enduser manual?
<nickr> hmm
<jamest> and it includes pictures :)
<jamest> and it's in <gasp!> lyx
<jamest> yes
<nickr> what do end users see?
<jamest> derek: I'm no longer alone!
<Isomer> .html, .dvi, .ps, .pdf
<Isomer> I guess :)
<jamest> jcater has entered my docbook hell
<derek> im sorry
<jcater> sigh
<derek> the more i use lyx i think its evil
<jamest> as I made the lyx docs in docbook format
<derek> i prefer raw docbook xml
<derek> i like lyx concept
<jamest> and guess what
<derek> but xforms dependency and HAVING to have lyx to do transformations licks bag
<jamest> the fucking (it's too personal to misspell) docbook won't install on his machine
<derek> but lyx docs are better than no docs :)
<derek> jamest: point being he doesnt need docbook neither do you
<derek> emacs will work
<jamest> I've written 3 chapters of a manual
<jamest> while he's trying to just get the dependencies
<derek> or any text editor
<jamest> working
<derek> and goats or some other location with docbook can create the files
<derek> :)
<derek> but thats besides the point, lyx is acceptable
<derek> perfectlable acceptable :)
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater prefers .txt files
<jamest> derek: you have a URL w/ docbook rpms for jcater?
<jamest> he needs it to create the output
<jcater> my headache is getting worse
<jamest> lyx files are just latex, they can be hand edited as well :)
<jamest> anyway, old battle
<jcater> ok
<jcater> what's the debian apt-get ?
Action: jcater cranks out his old laptop
<derek> yeah
<derek> dcm's sight
<derek> er site even let m e dig it up
Action: derek shudders at hand edit of lyx 
<derek> er latex
<jamest> ?
<jamest> no worse than docbook IMHO
<jamest> of course I deal w/ it more
<derek> frick
<derek> he redid his site
<Isomer> hmm
<derek> and moved the docbook stuff
<jcater> vi techref.lyx
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> wrong window
<nickr> argh, pringles are the product of satan
<derek> if you want i can put the rpms i have on this machine on goats
<jcater> nak
<derek> actually
<derek> http://rpmfind.net/linux/rpm2html/search.php?query=docbook
<derek> rpmfind its a slow apt-get :)
<derek> for rpm
<derek> if you are on a redhat system though
<derek> go get the cd you installed from
<derek> it has docbook on the cd
<derek> i.e. its part of the distribution
<jcater> slackware
<derek> jcater ah, why did jamest ask for rpms?
Action: derek wonders about guys that use slackware ;)
<derek> is ports collection available for slack yet?
Action: jcater trout slaps derek
Action: derek turns the other cheek
Action: derek slaps stbain with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps gnuebot with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps ajmitch with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps bigbrother with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps chillywilly with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps derek with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps dres with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps dtm with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps Isomer with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps Isomer_ with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps jamest with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps jcater with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps Maniac with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps mdean with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps Mr_You with a smelly old crappie
Action: derek slaps nickr with a smelly old crappie
<Isomer> !
<derek> dang thats wicked :)
<derek> i have buttons to do things in xchat, i found you can highlight more than one user and do multiple application 
<derek> muhahahaha
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> this is your masta
<derek> an instant crappie slap to the whole channel
<jcater> this is your masta on drigs
<jcater> drugs
<derek> rolf
<jcater> any questions?
<derek> is how you know im on drugs :)
<jamest> i thought you used rh? 
<jcater> I have an unfortunate server at work that has redhat on it
Action: jcater 's gonna start a debian install before he goes to bed
<nickr> mm
<nickr> sweet sweet apt
<derek> good coder, extra donuts
<jcater> course, I really do miss my freebsd
<nickr> be strong
<derek> they are toast (freebsd) state of confusion w/ windriver hanging them out to dry (IMO)
<jamest> ok, it's not much
<derek> if you must BSD i suggest netBSD ;)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> been meaning to install that in my fridge
<jcater> one of those honeydo's
<nickr> yea, what was up with that Wind River thing?
<jcater> jamest: what's not much?
<derek> we need to test GNUe on our toaster anyhow, so having someone that is netBSD friendly could be of use :)
<jamest> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jamest/pre-release/gnuef-users-guide/
<nickr> netbsd is funky monkey
<derek> looking at netbsd 'platforms' is truly amazing
<nickr> yea
<jamest> jcater: you'll notice some stuff in there I'm sure
<derek> algor     alpha     amiga     amigappc  arc       arm26     arm32     atari     bebox     cats     cesfic   cobalt    dnard    dreamcast  evbsh3    hp300     hpcarm    hpcmips   hpcsh     i386      luna68k   mac68k    macppc    mipsco    mmeye     mvme68k   netwinder  news68k   newsmips  next68k   ofppc     pc532     playstation2  pmax      prep      sandpoint  sgimips   sparc     sparc64   sun2      sun3      vax       walnut    x68
<derek>   x86_64   
<derek> to name a few
<nickr> netbsd runs on a peice of tinfoil and a wet napkin
<nickr> a port to your ass in in progress
<derek> jamest/jcater what did the netBSD dudes tshirts say?
<jcater> it had an up arrow pointing to his head
<jcater> and said, "my brain runs on netbsd" (IIRC)
<derek> yes i think you are correct
<nickr> ho ho
<derek> sigh
<jcater> jamest: what's the apt-get to get docbook working?
<derek> 'minor' gripe and i will get flamed
<jamest> apt-get install smgltools-lite
<derek> but i dont like that our screen shots are running a theme that obviously one desktop over another :)
Action: jamest whips out the bbw grill
<jamest> bbw = bbq
<jcater> lol
<jcater> we have new screenshots?
<jamest> derek: ?
<jcater> jamest: this in cvs?
<derek> a bbw bbq, um ill let you play that one
<derek> by the way screenshot == image in the new doc :)
<jcater> derek: well, you got your pictures, didn't you?
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> just got to that point
<jamest> you wanna keep all those looser gnome themes consistant in the screenshot section there ya ximian lover?
Action: jcater is reading pretty closely
<derek> yeah the bbw at the bbq are great, got any with pantyhose though??
Action: derek and those fetishes you know
<jamest> is that a good flame?
<derek> jamest: rofl, im not saying the screenshots have to be made on gnome, just use themes that are neutral
<derek> i.e. on both gnome and kde so we dont piss off either camp :)
<jamest> huh?
<derek> hell piss em both off and do all screen shots in windows
<jcater> jamest: I think he is saying do all screenshots in lwm
<jamest> you mean someone polluted kde's theme's with sawfish lookalikes?!?!?
<jamest> flame count: 2
<jamest> i have twm at work
<derek> fovl
<jamest> i can do there
<derek> er rofl
<derek> i just mean use a theem w/o a K in the corner
<jamest> hell, it's X
<derek> or a FOOT in the corner :)
<jamest> I'll startup in failsafe w/o any window manager
<derek> sigh its not worth discussing was just something that popped in head
<jcater> there ya go
<derek> i dont want to be a GNU/Linux'er
<jamest> sigh, if you think it's a big deal we can change
<derek> there are definitely more important issues:)
<derek> and there is nothing wrong with KDE
<derek> just want to avoid the wars in here later on, from one camp or the other
<jcater> of course not... we need something usable on linux
Action: jcater ducks
<jamest> but honestly I figured we'd have lots of different ones 
<jamest> btw - how we hide the "windows" ones
<jamest> flame count: 3
<derek> jcater then stay away from ximian by all means :)
<Isomer> do the entire thing in fvwm
<derek> i mean ONLY in the docs
<derek> not talking screenshots on website
<jamest> ah, ok
<derek> sorry for bad term in the beginning
<jamest> i can do that
<jamest> :)
<jamest> anyway, it's the start of a users guide
<jamest> as my users need one
<jamest> if people don't like it, it's in cvs, change at will
<derek> im all for making the screenshots on the website come from as MANY diff setups as possible, shows flexibility of gnue :)
<jamest> honestly lots of our docs are out of date
<jamest> :(
<jamest> i noticed that tonight reading them
<jcater> report's docs are current
<derek> where im really thinking is like gnome documentation project makes all document shots use the same theme and window theme
<jamest> txt and lyx  both
<derek> which is nice for consistency
<derek> but i wont go there :)
<derek> jamest: i will look at updateing docs
<derek> i read the developers guide and was like, ouch
<jamest> i'll let you guy figure that out, as I promised I'd be in bed at 10PM
<Isomer> hmm
<derek> need to change some stuff :)
<jamest> and it's um, a little after
<derek> it was amazingly still pretty consistent
<derek> just some new pieces have been added etc
Action: derek is ready to go into masta mode
Action: jcater needs to go to bed too
<jcater> I hate docbook
<derek> dcl and coder whipping, documentation slave and 'alpha' as in lead tester
<Isomer> provide a form:  Window Manager: [ Gnome  v]  WMTheme: [ Eggplant Yellow v]  Toolkit Theme: [ Wooden v]   [ Generate ScreenShot ]
<jcater> it even bombed out of apt-get
<derek> jcater: it had bad things to say about you too
<jamest> jcater: but, but, it almost runs on all linux compatible systems!
<jamest> jcater: almost
<derek> its just not 'hick' compatiable yet :)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I guess that's it
Action: jamest is a very verbal docbook hater
<jamest> but anyway
<jcater> sigh
<jamest> oooooooooooooo!
<jcater> jamest: but you are making me install it
<jamest> lets do them all in openoffice
<derek> jcater: im ashamed as we always just assumed jamest was doing apt-get docbuc
Action: jamest ducks
<derek> and we didnt have the heart to tell him to check his spelling
<jcater> jamest: fine with me
<jamest> jcater: I'm not making you, honest
<jamest> I'm in the same boat as you
<jamest> in trying to stay compatible w/ the docbook std for gnue :(
<ajmitch> grr, no python debs in sid
<jamest> I don't wanna have to "program" my docs
<jcater> ajmitch: should be
<jamest> anyway, i really need to run
<jamest> l8r
<jcater> run!
jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201085.flinthills.com) left irc: "[x]chat"
<ajmitch> jcater: not hurd
<jcater> lol
<jcater> oh
<jcater> derek: btw, we have samples in the windows setup.exe now
<jcater> it's a selectable component
<derek> cool
<jcater> so you can deselect it
<derek> i have LOTS o questions on new setup
<jcater> our windows setup rocks!
<derek> does it search for existing python, wx etc?
Action: Isomer will make sure psu quotes you on taht jcater
<Isomer> s/taht/that/
<jcater> it's a standalone setup
<derek> or does it not care and use dll's regardless
<jcater> it does not use a local installation
<jcater> even if it's there
<derek> jcater: ok, thats what i thought
<derek> guess that makes life easier and puts us in more control
<derek> wish we could make the unix setup that damn clean and good looking
<jcater> sigh
<Isomer> derek: isn't that what "apt-get" is all about?
<derek> kind of
<derek> apt-get is not universal
<ajmitch> it's not?
<derek> i.e. it would meet needs of our debian users
<derek> but debian is only 1 of many distributions
<derek> and 9 out of the top ten used distros dont use .deb's or apt
<derek> so that would go against the grain of gnue by making it hard to use for a majority of our audience
<Isomer> isn't that what redcarpet is for?
<Isomer> or whatever they call it?
<derek> redcarpet and other rpm based apt knock offs are prop at best
<derek> i.e. they are not well licensed and need the software in them to be part of 'partner agreements' from the content providers
<derek> which i think is something we would like to avoid
<derek> i dont see why a setup.sh is so evil
<derek> i just installed SimCity3000 for linux
<derek> sh setup.sh
<derek> and 3rd most beautiful install i have ever done
<derek> behind rail road tycoons 2 and civilization call to power
<nickr> yea, loki puts out good stuff
<derek> open office has a nice install too
<jcater> nite
jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "later"
<derek> nite
<Isomer> setup.sh isn't a bad way either
Action: Isomer just thinks that there has to be even nicer ways :)
<Isomer> however, as you point out they're all non-standard and reasonably evil
<derek> im not saying there is only one way to skin a cat either
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<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> what disadvantages do you precieve just providing a .rpm?
<ajmitch> loki's installer is available under the GPL, iirc
<nickr> I believe that you are correct
<ajmitch> of course ;)
<ajmitch> http://www.lokigames.com/development/setup.php3
<derek> cool
<derek> btw: how do you get x to run on another display?
<ajmitch> derek: how do you mean? get X apps to run elsewhere?
<nickr> export the display on the client side, set the server side to accept the clients
<derek> nickr: ok how
<derek> basically i just normally do startx
<derek> but now i want x on more than one display on same machine
<derek> i.e. in past i let X run on diplay 0
<ajmitch> startx -- :1
<derek> then use ctrl-alt f2-6 to play around
<ajmitch> gets X to start up on :1
<derek> ok let me try it
<ajmitch> if that don't work use xinit -- :1
<derek> aj think you :)
<derek> i was trying 
<derek> startx --client :2
--- Wed Nov 14 2001