[00:26] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<derek> is this like a 'where's waldo' book?
<jcater> ??
Action: derek envinsions jamest in that cool red/white shirt
<jcater> derek, please forgive me
<derek> you never heard of where's waldo?
<jcater> og course
<jcater> of course
<derek> you had me worried for a second
<jcater> why?
<jcater> chilly's gonna be pissed in the morming
<derek> ?
<jcater> I replied to his email
<jcater> that's what the 
<derek> uh oh
Action: derek still never read the original
<jcater> derek, please forgive me
<jcater> was about
<jcater> don't get me wrong... I see where he's coming from
<derek> no problem
<derek> btw: you missed the key point :)
<derek> think it is extremely shitty that a GNU project would require me to
<derek> install non-free software in order to read and modify the documentation.
<derek> is a NON TRUE statement
<derek> since the docs are distributed in html, ps, pdf etc they are READABLE by MANY non free tools
<derek> since the output is latex
<derek> the modification is a lie too :)
<jcater> yes
<derek> one could edit the files in emacs just fine and produce diffs etc
<jcater> well, the last paragraph alluded to your first point
<jcater> actuall jamest and I told him that this morning
<derek> now its a bit more DIFFICULT than if they had lyx but not impossible :)
<jcater> that email just really, really, REALLY pissed jamest and I off
<jcater> it's one thing to bitch and moan in IRC
<jcater> but that was unnecessary
<derek> agree, we all have our bad days
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<jcater> reinhard: howdy
<reinhard> hey jcater
<reinhard> you still up?
<jcater> not for too long
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<mcb30> Is anyone here awake and listening?
<reinhard> yes
<mcb30> Excellent.  I'm trying to get a CVS copy of GNUe up and running for the first(ish) time - do you mind if I ask for a few hints?
<reinhard> shoot away :)
<reinhard> btw what exactly are you trying to run?
<reinhard> as "GNUe" as a whole doesen't exist (yet)
<reinhard> GNUe is a meta-project (a group of related projects)
<mcb30> OK - what I want to do is get *something* running so I can get a feel for what there is, what state of development it's in etc. - I'd like to contribute but I need to know what already exists first!
<reinhard> ok cool
<reinhard> let me give you a quick overview
<mcb30> I have finally (about 5 minutes ago) managed to get "setup.py devel" to work properly - there are 2 bugs in it
<mcb30> ok
<reinhard> we regard two major areas
<reinhard> 1. architectur
<reinhard> 1. architecture
<reinhard> 1.1 GNUe Forms (ready to use)
<reinhard> 1.2 GNUe Reports (i think very near usability)
<reinhard> 1.3 GNUe Designer (usable
<reinhard> 1.4 GEAS (Application Server) (not yet usable in production)
<reinhard> 2. applications (accounting, crm,....): all in planning state
<reinhard> which setup.py are you looking at?
<mcb30> top-level
<mcb30> It references .cvsdeveldir instead of .cvsdevelbase
<mcb30> and then doesn't cd into .cvsdevelbase/gnue before creating the symlinks
<mcb30> so the links all point to the wrong place
<mcb30> I've got a patch file - who should I send it to?  jcater?
<reinhard> jcater or jamest
<mcb30> ok, will do, thanks
<reinhard> mcb30: btw sorry if i tell you things you already know :)
<mcb30> don't worry - I'd rather be told twice than not at all! :-)
<reinhard> people appearing here in IRC sometimes have _very_ different levels of information :)
<mcb30> this is probably a stupid question and you can tell me to rtfm if you want, but what's the differnce between running with and without GEAS?
<reinhard> the most important difference is
<reinhard> running without geas works
<reinhard> running with geas doesn't
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> (yet)
<reinhard> running w/o geas == 2-tier == all "intellingence" is in the client
<mcb30> where do business objects fit in to all this?
<reinhard> for example the rules how to compute the tax of an item in an invoice would be run on the client
<reinhard> with geas = n-tier == these rules are in the "middle" tier
<reinhard> business objects are like "intelligent" database tables
<reinhard> not only data but also methods
<reinhard> a business object "invoice" could have fields "customer", "send_to", "bill_to", .. etc
<mcb30> so do business objects exist only within GEAS?
<reinhard> which are mapped to db fields
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> and forms/reports access the business objects instead of the db
<mcb30> I thought so, but wasn't sure
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> you don't have business objects in 2-tier mode
<mcb30> so, given that business objects sound like a good idea to me, just how unstable is GEAS?
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> geas is sloooooowwwwww at the moment
<mcb30> slow I can live with
<reinhard> the idl api is too complicated and we expect to change it
<reinhard> to make it simpler == better usable
<reinhard> a method with a bug can make the whole server crash
<reinhard> and worst of all
<reinhard> the driver for forms/reports to access geas is not finished yet
<reinhard> but that last one is high on the todo list form jamest and jcater
<reinhard> s/form/of/
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<mcb30> reinhard: sorry about the delay: got a phone call from someone who never stops talking.  Are you still there?
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<reinhard> mcb30: i am here again
<reinhard> but only for 10 minutes
<mcb30> ok - just wanted to say that the change you made to gnue-config/test/gcd_pass_test.gcd (changing syntax to WHERE) has broken the parser in GEAS - any idea where I should look to see how to fix this?
<reinhard> mcb30: yes for nw
<reinhard> now
<reinhard> you can remove that file
<reinhard> imho
<reinhard> because it's nothing more than a test for the parser
<reinhard> the objects defined there aren't used in any of the samples IIRC
<mcb30> ok
<mcb30> thanks
<mcb30> btw, I have now got GNUe Forms talking to GEAS and I see what you mean about sloooooooooooow!
<mcb30> is it debug code that's slowing it down?  it seems to be spitting out hundreds of "GEAS.ObjectList instance at 0xXXXXXXX" messages
<reinhard> no it's not debug code
<reinhard> it's a bad concept
<reinhard> geas works with temporary tables when building up queries
<reinhard> which results in a situation like
<reinhard> for a query like SELECT FOO WHERE X = 1
<reinhard> geas issues 37 (gasp!) SQL commands to the database
<reinhard> (psu: please keep this secret... i'm too ashamed to make that public)
<reinhard> we must change that concept
<mcb30> I don't think that's the problem area: my speed problem appears when I'm not issuing queries but just trying to enter a record
<reinhard> == we must rewrite that part
<mcb30> it takes about 2/3 seconds per *character*
<reinhard> uh
<reinhard> that is maybe the "in the works" geas driver
<reinhard> that is no geas problem imho but a forms problem
<reinhard> i expect jamest to pop up here within the next 2 hours anyway
<mcb30> ok.  what's the easiest way to talk directly to geas, in the same way that I could use psql to talk directly to a postgres DB
<reinhard> look at examples/python/addrbook.py
<mcb30> excellent, thanks!
<mcb30> will have a play around
<reinhard> mcb30: i will have to thank you
<reinhard> mcb30: we are happy if you are going to help us
<reinhard> gotta leave now
<reinhard> bbl (in 7 hours)
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<alexey> gbad
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<jcater> jamest!
<jcater> morning
<jamest> hi
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<jamest> hi again
<jcater> wb
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<derek> wow jcater we must be on same schedule :)
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<jamest> derek: you're just affraid we switched to 3rd shift to avoid you
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<dneighbo> jamest rofl
<dneighbo> anyone here on the gnucash list?
<jcater> nope
<dneighbo> i had a thread going with a fellow making gnucash into quickbooks
<dneighbo> i.e. adding invoicing etc
<dneighbo> seems he is unemployed and has lots of time on his hands
<dneighbo> he just sent a major patch
<dneighbo> that brings gnucash a TON of new functionality
<jcater> crap
<ToyMan> hire him
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<dneighbo> ToyMan unfortunately like most of the other gnucash team
<dneighbo> our philosphies dont quite mesh
<dneighbo> i think there is a big difference between achieving a quickbooks clone and trying to provide easily adaptable business software
<dneighbo> there is plenty of room for both
<dneighbo> but the mindset is pretty different wrt approach for the two 
<dneighbo> if that makes sense
<mcb30> makes sense to me.   hi all, btw
<jamest> hi
<dneighbo> jamest: off a discussion elsewhere
<dneighbo> Is when people casually mention that "oh, no I don't use XYZ, it's got ABC bug", that they *haven't even bothered reporting*. It drives me crazy, and should be grounds for invoking the Remote Strangulation Protocol. 
<ToyMan> yeah, just kidding
<dneighbo> I thought you might be interested in downloading the RSP :)
<ToyMan> try reporting a ximmian bug..
<ToyMan> i gave it about 5-6 shots and gave up
<dneighbo> ToyMan they cant handle me (ximian)
<dneighbo> i downloaded the first 5 releases of ximian used for 10 minutes
<dneighbo> each time and had like a list so i stopped using
<dneighbo> i would politely go on #evolution and submit them
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<ToyMan> well, i like some of thier apps
<dneighbo> fejj was VERY cordial and good at patching things quickly
<dneighbo> everyone else sucked
<ToyMan> evol, gnumeric
<ToyMan> but the desktop sucked
<dneighbo> most said use bugzilla, use bugzilla
<dneighbo> thier bugzilla is a NIGHTMARE
<ToyMan> and was a nightmare to use with debian
<ToyMan> apt-get break everything...
<dneighbo> so my bug reporting with them was 50/50
<dneighbo> if i talked to fejj it was good experience else it sucked :)
<ToyMan> heh 2 nightmares
<dneighbo> but ultimately one night they broke the build on a release and didnt SAY it broke things
<dneighbo> and i was without mail for like 3 hours
<dneighbo> and my options where compile from source or use another mail program
<dneighbo> i was on deadline for a client and the crap was in my mail spool
<dneighbo> (attachment not just text)
<dneighbo> so i converted back to mozilla
<dneighbo> and i really like it
<dneighbo> more features and more stable and better looking (imho)
<ToyMan> i'm doing an evol install in the bg as I work...
<dneighbo> though no tasks or calendar
<ToyMan> i do galeon and konq for browsing
<dneighbo> i hear evolution is much better now though
<dneighbo> probably worth trying
<ToyMan> it is
<ToyMan> lots of depends
<dneighbo> ToyMan dont you know
<dneighbo> if you run rh 7.2 with ximian desktop there are NO dependencies
<dneighbo> so quit whining and upgrade man
<ToyMan> mozilla is too slow
<ToyMan> heh
<dneighbo> btw: i got that line almost verbatim installing a POPULAR gnome package
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Action: dneighbo runs rh6.2 on my laptop
<dneighbo> i was told running such archaic things was my problem
<dneighbo> i didnt tell them i had a dec alpha machine still on rh5.2 or they might have laughed me out of the irc channel :)
Action: ToyMan has no linux boxen left
<ToyMan> all bsd now
<mcb30> is anyone here familiar with the business object methods code in geas?
<dneighbo> somewhat
<mcb30> I'm playing with GNUe (GEAS in particular) for the first time.  I've got it all set up and running, and now I'm wondering why I can only choose to have python *or* C methods (the --enable-methods switch to configure) although the code looks as though it is designed to support both simultaneously
<mcb30> any explanation?
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<neilt> mcb30:  you have a question about business object method code?
<neilt> I am the one that made it work the last time around
<mcb30> yes: in methods.c it looks as though the design allows for both python and C methods simultaneously, but the configure script only allows to select one. Is this a bug in the configure script or is there a genuine reason why only one method type can be compiled in?
<neilt> mcb30:  correct observation
<neilt> the deisgn goal is for both to be available
<neilt> but originally only one could be used
<neilt> we are starting to add the code for both, but it is not finished and does not work, hence its not in the configuration yet
<mcb30> ok, thanks
<neilt> so today you must select one type of method support for geas
<neilt> if you want to finish the integrated support, we would happyly accept the help
<mcb30> I'll give it a try if you tell me where to start
<neilt> teh major component missing the the ability to detect at runtime where to find the method, C or python
<neilt> 1) we need a catalog of C methods built at startup
<neilt> 2) we need a catalog of python methods built at startup
<neilt> 3) we need logic inserted into the methods dispatching code to determine which style of methods to use
<neilt> 4) we need to determine how to handle duplicate method names in c and python
<neilt> we do not have a design document for this, so other than that I cant help much
<neilt> cillywilly was going to re-design all of the method code, but he has other priorities right now
<neilt> the other person to talk to is reinhard
<neilt> he and I have the most involved in the code
<mcb30> ok - it looks at first glance as though most of methods.c already supports multiple methods and it's just the dispatcher (execute_method) that needs to be told where to find them.  Is this correct?
<neilt> that should be close
<neilt> i know that both methods type are supposed to work, I have only personally tested the python version
<neilt> there may be one outstanding issues with the c methods
<neilt> that is that fully qualified names were not working
<neilt> that was the last change to the python methods code
<mcb30> how about if we call the first method type, then call the second if the first returns "cannot find method", and only report the "cannot find method" error if the second method type also reports it?  is this likely to work?
<neilt> should, there might be performance issues, but we can sort that out later
<mcb30> With the python methods, is it permitted to modify the python code while GEAS is running or not?
<neilt> you can modify the code, but geas wont recongize it
<neilt> it loads all methods into python at startup
<mcb30> ok
<dneighbo> that was one of the things being discussed when andrew was still around
<dneighbo> 'dynamically loading' methods
<dneighbo> as there were a few approaches
<dneighbo> 1. that you place the new code out there and next time its called new code is used
<dneighbo> 2. that you place the new code out there and at set intervals all new code is loaded
<dneighbo> 3. that you place the new code out there and its not loaded until you specifically tell it to load new code
<dneighbo> i think all 3 have value
<dneighbo> well 1 has minimal value
<mcb30> 1 has value for people writing methods and wanting to debug them
<dneighbo> basically because you wouldnt want place 5 new method files out and have a process half done
<mcb30> true
<dneighbo> calling new methods in the second half of a process expecting data in regards to the first half of process with old methods
<dneighbo> very dangerous :)
<dneighbo> the idea behind 2 is that you can do a 'scheduled upgrade' where you put the files out and say at 1:00 kick all users out and load all new methods
<dneighbo> the idea behind 3 is the debugging idea
<mcb30> i've looked at the method dispatch code and AFAICT there would be minimal performance impact from adopting the "try both, see if one succeeds" strategy compared to the current implementation
<dneighbo> so you can say ok i want to test this method so LOAD just this method
<dneighbo> or LOAD all new methods
<mcb30> because it currently works by doing string comparisons against all known methods anyway...
<dneighbo> btw: for now i think its ok to have to restart server as we are still a YOUNG app server
<mcb30> restarting server is a pain for developing the methods though
<dneighbo> mcb30 NO ARGUMENT THERE . :), just when i see bang for buck
<dneighbo> i would rather see a more robust server to start 
<dneighbo> though if you are willing ot tackle the issues behind loading methods i would love it :")
<dneighbo> i think the best way to start is method 3
<dneighbo> which means it doesnt AUTO load methods (thusly minimal risk)
<mcb30> agreed, since 2 is a special case of 3 anyway
<dneighbo> but you can LOAD on demand
<dneighbo> and if you wanted 2, just use cron + 3 :)
<dneighbo> it might not even be that hard to do
<neilt> i think we should make small steps, and being able to use two different types of methods is more important than how we start up.  In the long run i agree with derek.
<dneighbo> but i will let yo ube the judge of that :)
<dneighbo> neilt: i tend to agree
<dneighbo> but there is valid point that often i dont play with geas for long, because starting and stopping it is irrating :)
<neilt> then why stop it?
<mcb30> sure, and the work in getting both types of method simultaneously would give me some ideas for how to do dynamic loading later
<mcb30> if I'm going to actually do some coding then I need CVS access - how do I arrange this?
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<neilt> i think it will somewhat easy to get dynamic loading of methods (at least forpython)
<dneighbo> cool
<neilt> -
<neilt>  i think it will somewhat easy to get dynamic loading of methods (at least forpython)
<neilt> but lets get methods working first
<dneighbo> not sure if you mean dynamic as not restarting or dynamic as 1 dynamic
<neilt> and the goal is definatly to have dynamic methods
<dneighbo> 1 dynamic seems dangerous to me in a functioning system, wouldnt mind it as an 'option' but not as the standard :)
<neilt> i meant that if you change the methods source is is active on the next method call
<dneighbo> ouch that is number 1
<dneighbo> i would be leary to make that a default
Action: neilt is confused
<neilt> what is the difference
<dneighbo> no problem w/ it being an option but not the defualt
<dneighbo> control
<neilt> of course you are right
<dneighbo> if i change how something works in a complex system
<dneighbo> that has 'steps' or 'flow'
<dneighbo> and i update all the files
<dneighbo> some transactions could be mid 'flow'
<dneighbo> and so producing 'steps' that are half old code half new code
<dneighbo> which could be dangerous :)
<dneighbo> if i put on a timer or manually do it
<dneighbo> then i can assure more closely that i have good timing
<mcb30> damn netsplits!
<mcb30> did anything happen in the last ten minutes (since I asked about CVS access)?
<neilt> it will be an option
<neilt> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log.16Nov2001
<dneighbo> yes i think its a good option
<dneighbo> because as i developer i would use :)
<dneighbo> just not in production
<dneighbo> mcb30 CVS access or even submitting patches requires assignment/disclaimer of copyright to Free Software Foundation
<neilt> some stuff was missed in the log
<neilt> so i am going to repost
<dneighbo> as we want to assure that the GNUe code tree is ensured to remain GPL and doesnt suffer from copyright issues like other major projects have
<neilt>   dneighbo: that was one of the things being discussed when andrew was still around
<neilt>   dneighbo: 'dynamically loading' methods
<neilt>   dneighbo: as there were a few approaches
<neilt>   dneighbo: 1. that you place the new code out there and next time its called new code is used
<neilt>   dneighbo: 2. that you place the new code out there and at set intervals all new code is loaded
<neilt>   dneighbo: 3. that you place the new code out there and its not loaded until you specifically tell it to load new code
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<neilt> that did not work
<neilt> i thought you guys turned off flood protectino for me
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<mcb30> does openprojects.net normally split this frequently?
<jamest> depends on the day i think
<jamest> normally no
<jamest> bbl
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<jcater> welcome back all
<jcater> again
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<mcb30> this is fast approaching an unusable IRC server :-(
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<mcb30> in the midst of all this, can someone tell me how I go about doing the necessary steps to get CVS access (copyright assignment or whatever)?
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<codewind> well first you need the software i presume thats in order :))))))))
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<jcLunch> mcb30: send me an email to jcater@gnue.org and I will reply with the first steps of copyright assignment
<jcLunch> mcb30: also, is there any possibility your employer might have any rights over your work
<jcLunch> (i.e., will you be working on this at your job?)
<jcLunch> (or some other contractual obligations)
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<ra3vat> hello madlocke
<madlocke> hi ra3vat...
<dneighbo> mcb30 you can also send to info@gnue.org so have your email and we can send you the documents to get started
<dneighbo> dont let it hold up you doing work
<dneighbo> we just cant put into the cvs tree until we get things squared away
Nick change: jcLunch -> jcater
<mcb30> my employer is not a problem since I run the company
<jcater> lol
<mcb30> jcater: will send mail to you and info@gnue.org
<mcb30> bbl (another Simpsons episode is starting)
<dneighbo> mcb30 is a guy with taste, likes gnue and the simpsons :)
<codewind> no telling for taste 8-)
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<jamest> hey
<jamest> hows it going?
<madlocke> did some changes to uiwebware...
<madlocke> still don't have my better connection :((( but people promised that I will get everything tomorrow...
<madlocke> you have webware installed?
<jamest> me? no
<jamest> been working on next release
<madlocke> hm... you'll need it if you want to look at my work...
<jamest> i know
<madlocke> want of the biggest problems I had was (it was possible to solve it in UIwebware but in an ugly way)
<madlocke> the way of how the widgets are created
<madlocke> for wxpython it is ok to create a widget and then the next
<madlocke> for html output it is difficult because of start and end tags...
<madlocke> I need something like begin create, create, end create
<madlocke> hope you understand...
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<jamest> ok
<psu> bbl
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<madlocke> jamest: you have some time on monday and can install webware until this time?
<ajmitch> madlocke: i got webware here :)
<ra3vat> and here
<ajmitch> i think a few ppl have it
<jamest> i can make an attempt to 
<madlocke> ok
<madlocke> ajmitch: so you want to try some things?
<madlocke> ra3vat: you too?
<ajmitch> madlocke: sure
<ajmitch> what version of webware does it require?
<ra3vat> madlocke: sure
<madlocke> ajmitch:i am using 0.5.1 rc 1
<madlocke> ajmitch: but I think an older version should be possible too
<Maniac> webware is like up to 0.6.2b iirc
<ajmitch> ok, i'm using about 0.5x iirc
<madlocke> maniac: then I have to look at features of new version... understand... maybe something interesting...
<dneighbo> madlocke, did you get your assignment turned in?
<madlocke> dneighbo: ?
<dneighbo> copyright assignment for GNUe to the Free Software Foundation?
<jamest> dneighbo: yes, long ago
<dneighbo> jamest: and FSF has them recorded?
<jamest> IIRC yes
<jamest> I'm 99% sure
Action: dneighbo doesnt have access to look, but i thought we were missing from a few people
<dneighbo> was thinking madlocke was one, but i very easily could be mistaken :)
<madlocke> dneighbo: I did send it...
<dneighbo> ok if you sent it you are probably covered :)
<dneighbo> nevermind my blithering :)
<jamest> no problem, we're used to it
<jamest> :)
<ajmitch> heh
Action: dneighbo digs in his live well for a fresh crappie to begin the slapping
<ajmitch> madlocke: ok, what do you want ra3vat & I to try out?
<madlocke> at the moment I send some files to ra3vat ... wait...
<dneighbo> hey psu when is next KC GNUe scheduled?
<dneighbo> are they weekly or on a certain day
<dneighbo> or just when you have enough information to make them usefull?
<dneighbo> jamest: any chance of doing a branch somewhere in cvs or something
<dneighbo> to put the webware stuff?
<ajmitch> madlocke: no probs, i'll just catch up on my mounds of email :)
<dneighbo> so its not just file sending all around?
<dneighbo> do we have a live demo site somewhere?
<madlocke> ajmitch: you email address is somewhere on the gnue website, isn't it?
<dneighbo> if not maybe we can setup ash to use the UIWebWare so we can it in action w/o installing it
<ajmitch> madlocke: doubtful :) ajmitch@freedevelopers.net
<jamest> dneighbo: no brank
<jamest> brach
<jamest> branch
<jamest> once we release then we branch 0.1.x
<jamest> and ui stuff goes in head
<Maniac> madlocke: if you dont' mind me asking, what are you doing with webware with respect to gnue
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> madlocke maybe best for now to give to jamest in tarball
<dneighbo> and he can pu tin his user dir on gnuenterprise
<dneighbo> this way you dont have to upload every time
<madlocke> maniac: I use some features of webware and then make gnuef output html pages...
<Maniac> madlocke: cool
<dneighbo> how are you doing record traversal?
<Maniac> gnuef?
<dneighbo> you making it 'refresh' everytime you change records?
<dneighbo> gnuef==gnue forms
<dneighbo> jcater: you alive? dead? mauled? userfied? 
<madlocke> dneighbo: I am just exchanging data between html and the gnuef widgets... so no big change in the handling...
<dneighbo> i guess ill have to see it
<dneighbo> to understand
<madlocke> I will be back on monday... hope I will have my permanent internet connection then...
<dneighbo> do you have a public version available
<madlocke> then I can stay longer
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> see you monday, have good weekend
<madlocke> thx... for you too...
<madlocke> cu
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<jamest> dneighbo: latest reports from the trenches have jcater userfied
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> long subjection to userfication have been know to lead to persecution, execution and crucifiction :)
<dneighbo> hopefully he will fair better than most
<ajmitch> hehe
<dneighbo> hmm a geas bug report rolls in
Action: Maniac is away: I'm busy
<ra3vat> bbl
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<jamest> this is odd
<jamest> forms runs on older solaris again but gives this error
<jamest> Gdk-WARNING **: shmget failed: error 28 (No space left on device)
<jcater> now jamest
<jcater> is solaris an approved gnu machine?
Action: jcater hides from the flying fishes
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Action: Mr_You test the waters.
<reinhard> jamest: please excuse the silly question
<reinhard> you sure that no disk volume is full on that machine?
<jcater> I think that's shared memory space that's filling up
<Mr_You> uggh
<Mr_You> this remote connection is broke
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<Mr_You> ok
<reinhard> btw ash is down
<Mr_You> I really would like to begin checking it out
<reinhard> or at least doesn't respond to pings
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> up again
<reinhard> forget it, must have been temporary
<jamest> whew
<ajmitch> hehe
<Mr_You> reinhard: yeah I've been having connectivity issues also, dunno where they might lie
<reinhard> wow
<reinhard> good discussion about methods today
<reinhard> you think we found a new victim^H^H^H^H^H^Hvolunteer?
<reinhard> btw i am amazed how neilt can always jump into IRC just in the second he is needed :)
<mcb30> victim?!!!!!!!
<reinhard> uh you're still here??
<mcb30> btw, I seem to have found a problem with the python method dispatch
<reinhard> :)
<mcb30> when I have two method files (addrbook.geas.py and test.geas.py) it will always invoke the method in addrbook.geas.py...?
<mcb30> although it does the syntax checking according to the correct method
<mcb30> am trawling through the code now, which is great fun since I never use C (I prefer languages where you can do a string comparison in less than 10 lines of code! :-p  (
<ajmitch> heh
<reinhard> mcb30: please don't take this code as "typical" C code :)
<jamest> mcb30: what reinhard means is "it's not his fault!" :)
<reinhard> lol
<reinhard> mcb30: you talking about this block of code?
<reinhard>       if (!g_strcasecmp
<reinhard>           (((provider_t *) list->data)->classname,
<reinhard>            g_strdelimit (obj->classname, ":", '_'))
<reinhard>           && !g_strcasecmp (((provider_t *) list->data)->methodname,
<reinhard>                             methodname))
<mcb30> that looks like the one
<mcb30> the one for the C methods is more elegant, AFAICT
<mcb30> reinhard: for method declarations in *.geas.py files, should they be of the form "person_tell_children" or "addressbook__person_tell_children"?
<reinhard> i _think_ the latter
<reinhard> but that was the last thing neilt did and i didn't look since then
<reinhard> at least it _should_ be the latter
<reinhard> or something to that effect
<reinhard> every module should have its own namespace.
<mcb30> ok, seems to work better with being the latter
<reinhard> cool
<reinhard> this is scary
<reinhard> you seem to understand that code better after 6 hours
<reinhard> as i do after 6 months
<reinhard> :)
<jamest> reinhard: maybe mcb30 is another jcater class AI
<reinhard> btw mcb30: sorry for being curious, but may i ask how you heard about our project?
<reinhard> jamest: would be good, AI distribution is unfair currently ;)
<jamest> lets hope this one is powered by doughnuts like the current one
<reinhard> dneighbo: proposal for a new poll on the homepage: how did you hear about gnue? a) gnu homepage b) freedevelopers c) kernel cousins ...
<jamest> d) bathroom wall
<mcb30> I run a small Linux business providing computers to UK schools and managing them.  It's been nagging at me for a while that my accounts are on paper (sometimes not even there! :-) so I spent ages looking for accounting packages
<reinhard> e) "the voices" told me
<mcb30> then I came across GNUe and was impressed by the potential scope of the project and the level of attention to detail in the docs
<reinhard> wow
<mcb30> I think I probably found it via Freshmeat - that's where I normally start searching for things
<reinhard> now again congrats to jamest and jcater
<reinhard> i hear this very often that people looking at gnue are impressed by the docs :)
<reinhard> and of course also to neilt, sorry :)
<mcb30> docs and screenshots - it's the quickest way to evalulate software when you've got to pick one out of many
<reinhard> bbl gotta watch the news on tv
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-bbl
<mcb30> Think I may have found what's going wrong with the python method dispatch: test.geas.py doesn't have a "module" declaration
<mcb30> yep, that was it
<dneighbo> cool beans
<jamest> someone get him a doughnut
<dneighbo> jamest: you give jasons donuts to someone else you might be pulling back a stump instead of a hand in the future :)
<jcater> mmm
<jcater> donuts
<dneighbo> heading home be back later
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<mcb30> ok, can someone explain to me what should happen if I do :
<mcb30> l = odl_tree_list_classes (all_classes)
<mcb30> c = odl_find_class ( all_classes, l->data, NULL)
<mcb30> then what is the difference between evaluating:
<mcb30> odl_mangle_qualified_name ( l->data )
<mcb30> and
<mcb30> g_strdup_printf ("%s__%s", ( odl_class_get_parent(c))->name, odl_class_get_name(c))
<mcb30> ?
<jamest> mcb30: the people in the know would be reinhard and neilt 
<jamest> mcb30: the rest of us are not much help in GEAS I'm afraid
<mcb30> ok
<jamest> mcb30: did you submit the python patches too?
Nick change: rm-bbl -> reinhard
<mcb30> haven't submitted any patches yet, except for two mini-patches that (I think) I e-mailed to you and jcater earlier today
<jamest> those the ones
<jamest> thanks
<jamest> you think you'll be using pieces of GNUe and submitting patches alot?
<mcb30> yes
<mcb30> i'm aiming to run the business on it :-)
<mcb30> currently only two employees, so it's not a huge problem if information goes missing
<reinhard> mcb30: re difference: both should be identical for the special case where we have on nesting level of classes in one nesting level of modules (and we meanwhile declared this special case as the only valid case).
<reinhard> earlier you could have nested modules
<mcb30> so if I standardise on using odl_mangle_qualified_name ( l->data ), is this a good choice?
<reinhard> basically yes _but_:
<reinhard> all functions starting with odl are from the parser library
<reinhard> which is being rewritten at the very moment
<reinhard> and will be replaced by completely new code within the next 1-2 weeks (i hope)
<reinhard> and for example if you would want to take care of the method stuff
<reinhard> you could make wishes to that api
<reinhard> like you want a simple function get_functionname (method *m);
<mcb30> ok
<mcb30> don't have any requests yet, but I'll bear it in mind
<reinhard> i would like to encapsulate all that mangling in the parser library
<reinhard> and have functions that return the ready-to-use function name, db field name, db table name etc.
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<mcb30> sounds sensible
<chillywilly> yo
<reinhard> mcb30 if you want to take a look at the new code its in geas/src/classdef
<reinhard> also i have made some thoughts about coding style and would like to hear your comments on that part of the code
<reinhard> (whether it's understandable, maintainable etc...)
<reinhard> chillywilly: hi
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<reinhard> -chillywilly- TIME Fri Nov 16 15:47:46
<reinhard> you are up early today?
<chillywilly> ?
<reinhard> j/k
<chillywilly> how is that early?
<mcb30> reinhard: am in the middle of playing around with methods.c and friends atm, but will look at classdef later
<chillywilly> I was at work all day
<chillywilly> I got up at 6am
<reinhard> well i guess that ppl that hack until 4 a.m. must sleep until 4 p.m. :)
<reinhard> at least i would have to :)
<chillywilly> i went to bed at 10pm last night
<chillywilly> I was too tired
<reinhard> mcb30: that's ok
<reinhard> btw until we have cvs access for mcb30
<reinhard> ******************
<reinhard> i think best is we consider the geas/src/methods directory "locked by mcb"
<reinhard> ******************
<reinhard> so we don't have to merge afterwards
<chillywilly> eh?
<reinhard> there aren't many people hacking on geas currently, anyway
<reinhard> chillywilly: you might want to read the logs
<chillywilly> that requires work :P
<chillywilly> ok, maybe if I feel a bit less lazy later on
<chillywilly> I'll read them
<reinhard> chillywilly: ok so in a nutshell: mcb30 is looking at our methods code as we speak :)
<chillywilly> ok
<reinhard> s/looking at/improving in high speed/
<chillywilly> what about going to GObject fellas....Gnome 2 API is ready
<ajmitch> glib 2.0
<ajmitch> it does not mean it will be gnome-dependant ;)
<chillywilly> no only glib 2.0
<chillywilly> but we need a much more OO design of things
<reinhard> what advantages will the user have from that?
<chillywilly> and we get signals and slots and loading of object from libs
<chillywilly> run time type checking
<ajmitch> reinhard: it saves chillywilly having to implement this stuff himself ;)
<chillywilly> and no stinking X dependencies
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<chillywilly> unlike GtkObject
<chillywilly> we gte inheritance too, and thread safety
<chillywilly> and the new ORbit is also thread safe now
<chillywilly> a/gte/get
<ajmitch> hey ra3vat
<ajmitch> get the webware stuff?
<chillywilly> not that  have a burning desire to do multi-threading as it is kicking my ass right now :(
<jcater> now what are the issues of becoming glib 2.0 dependent?
<chillywilly> but a multi-threaded app server would be cool
<ajmitch> umm, dependencies on glib 2.0 :)
<ajmitch> it's a fairly small library
<chillywilly> jcater: really othing more than what we have now....just a newer glib
<chillywilly> nothing
<ra3vat> ajmitch: will try now
<ajmitch> ra3vat: you got the stuff from madlocke tho?
<reinhard> jcater: a version of a library that is not included in most current packages
<reinhard> (read has to be installed by hand)
<chillywilly> reinhard: that's what --prefix is for ;)
<ajmitch> and a stable version is not yet released :)
<ajmitch> but since no GNUe stuff is at 1.x i don't think that matters :)
<chillywilly> they have released the environment
<ajmitch> yes
<reinhard> plus the potential disadvantage that it's not ported to as many platforms as glib 1.2 (this is only a guess though)
<chillywilly> the programmer's release
<chillywilly> reinhard: I don't think we wil loose any protability
<ajmitch> reinhard: it's portable
<reinhard> anybody knows on how many platforms 1.2 works?
<chillywilly> not off hand
<reinhard> and 2.0?
<chillywilly> why would they make it any worse?
<reinhard> look at glibc
<reinhard> 1.* run on tons of platforms
<reinhard> 2.* runs on linux period.
<reinhard> (and i mean linux here, not gnu/linux) :)
<chillywilly> portability is supposed to be one of the main goals of glib
<ra3vat> ajmitch: yes and sent it where i am now. checking
<ajmitch> reinhard: eh?
<chillywilly> reinhard: glib is not at the kernel level :P
<reinhard> i am just overcautious maybe
<jcater> reinhard: that's not a bad thing!
<reinhard> lately i see such a ton of projects being killed by their dependencies
<chillywilly> reinhard: we already depend on glib
<reinhard> not only that dependencies increase the work to do when installing a software
<chillywilly> so what dependency are we adding?
<reinhard> but also they can break portability
<chillywilly> glib hasn't changed in dependencies....it's the same old glib but with a nice X-free object system
<reinhard> we would be adding the dependency for 2.0
<reinhard> which is something different that 1.2
<ra3vat> ajmitch: some group from new zealand will give concert tomorrow :)
<ajmitch> ra3vat: oh?
<chillywilly> whatever dude I am gonna be writing some code using GObject and no one can stop me
<ra3vat> :)
<ajmitch> you know which group? 
<reinhard> chillywilly: shoot right off, it's fun :)
<chillywilly> 2.0 fixes what is fscked up with most gnome programs
<reinhard> chillywilly: i already did (for gnome-db)
<chillywilly> reinhard: no reason to do that with glib it doesn;t have the same problems as gnome-db
<ra3vat> ajmitch: no, just heart from a friend
<reinhard> ajmitch: crowded house is nz, right?
<ajmitch> reinhard: yep
<chillywilly> doesn depend on X or bonobo or anything...in fact glib only needs glibc...which everything needs
Action: reinhard loves crowded house
<ajmitch> :)
<chillywilly> is glibc too much of a dependency for us?
<chillywilly> maybe we should implement our own?
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> well
<jcater> you joke
<ra3vat> ajmitch: where are you in nz?
<jcater> but that does limit the portability
<reinhard> chillywilly: i meant i already used gobject
<ajmitch> ra3vat: down south in dunedin
<reinhard> chillywilly: and serously i don't want to depend on glibc
<ajmitch> chillywilly: does glib truly depend on glibc?
<reinhard> chillywilly: geas must work with every libc
<ajmitch> reinhard: i think glib does
<chillywilly> ajmitch: I don't think so
<reinhard> that is posix compatible or near that
<chillywilly> ajmitch: the whole point is to be portable
<ajmitch> brb
<chillywilly> ajmitch: so I was wrong in saying that
<chillywilly> in fact even the Thread class will run o win32
<chillywilly> s/o/on
<reinhard> um yes that is the feeling that i actually have
<reinhard> that glib cares a lot about portability between linux-based systems and win32
<reinhard> but not so much about portability to other un*x systems
<chillywilly> well lemme look and see exactly what systems it will compile on and work
<reinhard> but i can't tell for sure
<chillywilly> I have the code here
<reinhard> however
<reinhard> every dependency is a disadvantage per defintion
<reinhard> and it can be an advantage, too
<reinhard> and we have to check what overweights
<chillywilly> I know this, what is your point?
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<reinhard> so i asked what the advantage is
<reinhard> i mean the advantage for the user
<chillywilly> and I told you
<chillywilly> it is for us mainly...I am not doing my own OO glue crap in C and yes I like programming with objects
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<reinhard> oh
<psu> hi all
<reinhard> well i think more about the user than about us
<reinhard> hi psu
<psu> derek asked about the KC frequency earlier
<psu> (I have spies everywhere)
<reinhard> lol
<chillywilly> reinhard: if I can reuse code with inheritance and develop faster than the user wins too
<psu> ok, I have spies at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log.16Nov2001
<psu> frequency is weekly
<psu> just sent a new one to Zack
<psu> I try to send by Saturday
<psu> covering up to previous Wed
<psu> (this is to reflect KC's standard rule 
<psu> of don't summarise threads less than 3 days old
<psu> less of an issue for IRC, really
<psu> but gives me a couple of days to get things sorted 
<psu> so fine by me ;-)
<reinhard> chillywilly: you think the difference between code reuse via inheritance and code reuse via functions is really big?
<psu> Once the next issue is up, I will post to gnuenterprise.org "portal"
<psu> and to gnue-discuss
<reinhard> (please note the grammar:
<reinhard> this is a question, not a negation! :)
<psu> actually, Zack has now set up a couple of mailing lists
<chillywilly> reinhard: ?
<psu> kcgnueannounce & kcgnuedistrib 
<psu> at http://kt.zork.net/lists.html
<psu> so I will promote these too
<reinhard> chillywilly: i am trying to see the world throught mr. lazy accountant's eyes
<reinhard> if i were an accountant
<psu> Tempting as it is to subscribe gnue-discuss to at least kcgnueannounce
<reinhard> and you were the coder
<reinhard> what would i want you to do?
<psu> I suspect subscribing one mailing list to another 
<psu> is bad both technically
<psu> and from point of view of pissing people off
<psu> anyway, I'm just meant to be doing a mail drop
<psu> TTFN
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise.
<Mr_You> might find this interesting
<Mr_You> http://www.shoplifestyleonline.com/my007.html
<chillywilly> [16:19:37] <telsa> chillywil: it's *supposed* to be portable, I thought that was its entire point for existing.
<Mr_You> finally my connection has restabalized
<reinhard> chillywilly: it's good to hear that
<reinhard> especially from somebody like telsa :)
<chillywilly> yep :)
<chillywilly> it is supposed to work on POSIX systems
<mcb30> bbl (dinner time)
<reinhard> mcb30: wow you eat late
<reinhard> (sigh) bedtime for me
<chillywilly> hey mcb30
<reinhard> zero code day today :(((
<chillywilly> I have seen your posts on the lists haven't I?
<reinhard> night all
<chillywilly> night
reinhard (rm@62.47.44.7) left irc: "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est.  -- Aurelius Augustinus"
<Mr_You> blah blah blah
<jcater> blah blah?
<chillywilly> blah
<Maniac> blah blah?
<chillywilly> blah blah blah
<Mr_You> guess I'm gonna try cheetah with webware
<Mr_You> unless someone has a beta version of a ported post/php-nuker ;-)
<Mr_You> hehe
<chillywilly> ported?
<Mr_You> hmm.. nah gonna put that off I think
<chillywilly> I thought PHP was portable
<Mr_You> no I want webware tools ;-)
<chillywilly> a GNUe/webware/webforms CMS would be cool
<Mr_You> guess I better get to work.. ;-) but I would be if I had madlocks code
<Mr_You> yeah.. I just have to wait uggh
<Mr_You> I've got to make a minor change tho..
<Mr_You> uggh lag
<Mr_You> I minor change on about oh... 30 some pages or more
<chillywilly> would you like some cheese whine?
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> hehe
<Mr_You> I'm not good doing the tedious
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<ajmitch> back
<ajmitch> sigh
<chillywilly> hey
<ajmitch> yello
<chillywilly> green
<ajmitch> *thwap*
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Action: chillywilly sees jcat bitching and moaning about my mail
<chillywilly> jcater
<ajmitch> no, it doesn't look like much of a bitch & moan to me
<jcater> huh?
<chillywilly> irc logs shows otherwise
<chillywilly> editing lyx files with a text editor is not acceptable
<jcater> it's no different
<jcater> than editing docbook
<jcater> with a text editor
<chillywilly> docbook is a standard format
<chillywilly> lyx uses its own markup
<jcater> no
<chillywilly> which is not documented anywhere
<jcater> lyx is LaTeX
<chillywilly> no!
<jcater> have you looked at a LyX file??????
<chillywilly> irtfm
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> of course
<jcater> I did too :)
<chillywilly> it is not 100% LaTeX
<chillywilly> it is psuedo lyx tags
<jcater> oh, you're right
<jcater> the first line is
<jcater> \lyxformat 218
<jcater> damn
<jcater> that made it hard to understand
<jcater> the rest of the latex
Action: jcater is not gonna get into this discussion.. I think I made my point well in the email
<ajmitch> sigh
<chillywilly> well I haven't read my mail yet
<chillywilly> I still think it is bullshit
<chillywilly> if you want LaTeX then why not texinfo?
<jcater> drop it man
<chillywilly> dude, if someone wants to go with the standard packages distro stuff and be able to modify the docs easily then the must use non-free libxforms to get lyx working
<Mr_You> temporarily?
<Mr_You> I realize thats a problem, but the plan is that its temporary... AFAIK
<Mr_You> can we agree on atleast that chilly?
<Mr_You> I think everyone is on your side, its just a matter of timing as a result of relying on other Free Software
<chillywilly> can I view the current forms tech refernce?
<chillywilly> is it on the web?
<Mr_You> can we not provide translated documents?
<Mr_You> ie. one method for author (which is temporary) but translated to a more universal method of reading?
<Mr_You> s/author/authoring/
<chillywilly> this is what is mist pissiing me off....and that crack about RMS was really shitty jcater as all I said was that I like to not run non-free software and I use vrms to make sure I am not using it
<chillywilly> last time I had to install lyx to even read the current forms tech ref
<chillywilly> that was not cool
<Mr_You> so what will it take to make it translated?
<jcater> Mr_You: that's what we do... we don't actually distribute the Lyx... we convert to text, ps, pdf, and html for the distros
<Mr_You> so chilly, just create your docs how ever you want, if thats what you want to do
<chillywilly> guess I should just downgrade myself to a user?
<chillywilly> Mr_You: that would require installing non-free software to do that easily
<chillywilly> that's the whole point
<chillywilly> I don;t see you guys committing any formats that would be useful for those of us wishing to keeo our system free of non-free software
<Mr_You> uggghh
<Mr_You> lag
<chillywilly> I know that you don't distribute it as lyx
<chillywilly> duh
<Mr_You> chilly, I think you're making this too big a deal, AT THIS TIME... 
<Mr_You> you haven't been able to convince anyone that another software package is as useful AT THIS TIME
<chillywilly> well because I wanted to look at  the forms form a higher level without diggin into code and this wa s abarrier
<chillywilly> even I had problems with exporting the docbook
<Mr_You> as time goes on, we can move to another solution
<Mr_You> why is that such a problem?
<Mr_You> I realize it goes against your philosophy.. but philosophy shouldn't get in the way of progress if it is a temporary issue
<Mr_You> its just a minor temporary issue in the huge scheme of things
<Mr_You> I don't think it threatens our integrity
<chillywilly> why not just do it in text and then mark it up later then everyone csn read development docs without the B.S.
<Mr_You> go for it chilly.. you have your valid reasons 
<chillywilly> Mr_You: the easy way to do that would be to run lys and copy and paste I will not install it again until I can run it easily with a Free GUI
<Mr_You> you just haven't been successfull in convincing others at this time, I have no doubt you may be able to in the future, as everyone agrees with you ideally but technically its a minor issue
<chillywilly> it is not *minor*...it makes us look bad
<jcater> chillywilly: emails like what you sent make us look bad
<Mr_You> chillywilly: like I said, don't let your own philosophy stop progress.. work around it quickly and overcome it eventually
<jcater> NO documentation makes us look bad
<jcater> constant bickering makes us look bad
<Mr_You> chillywilly: so don't make us "look bad" by doing it your own way
<chillywilly> jcater: you're not willing to compromise and stick to principles....dude, it is a huge barrier for developers that do not want to install non-free software
<jcater> chillywilly: it is no barrier unless you make it one
<Mr_You> chilly: this is temporary.. and the major developers are the ones coming in here and chatting with us.. if any new major developer has a problem I'm sure we'll hear it and it will give your argument much more weight
<Mr_You> chillywilly: compromise doesn't always happen exactly when someone would like it to
<chillywilly> simple fact is that it hindered me from reading the forms tech reference....it was a very frustrating experience and I asked that it please be stopped, but no one gives a crap
<chillywilly> so fuck it
<Mr_You> so I would seriously like to request  that you find a work around or other solution to your problem and look forward to a permanent solution in the future
<Mr_You> you hinered yourself based on your philosophy
<Mr_You> as I understand it
<chillywilly> my solution would be to do texinfo...now if someone were to say this is what we will do then fine...but al I got was jamest saying that it was texinfo and ppl didn't like it
<jcater> chillywilly: it was texinfo and people bitched and moaned about the archaic format
<jcater> personally
<chillywilly> and lyx is less archaic?
<jcater> I'd prefer everything to be 
<Mr_You> no, I'm saying a solution to *your* problem specificly with not being able to load the docs
<jcater> in ASCII format
<Mr_You> I'm just requesting that we put this off til another time...
<chillywilly> I think it is short sighted to think I am the only one
<chillywilly> who will come accross these issues
<Mr_You> like I said before..
<Mr_You> this is temporary.. and the major developers are the ones coming in
<Mr_You> +here and chatting with us.. if any new major developer has a problem I'm sure
<Mr_You> +we'll hear it and it will give your argument much more weight
<Mr_You> too much lag, and wasting time discussing this, I've vvoiced my opinion... gonna do some work
<jcater> ditto
<Mr_You> gonna do cheetah
<Mr_You> hey will this work:
<Mr_You> Cheetah: 
<Mr_You> generates HTML, SGML, XML, SQL, Postscript, form email, LaTeX, or any other text-based format
<Mr_You> ;-)
<jcater> what is cheetah?
<Mr_You> a template system for webware
<jcater> ah
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> GNUe-Reports will do that too
<jcater> maybe we should just document in a database
<jcater> :)
<jcater> j/k
<Mr_You> yeah hehe
<Mr_You> ugggh ok, not doing anything other than GNUe+webware+"madlocke code"
<Mr_You> wonder when this lag will stop tho, can't do much of anything
<Mr_You> ahh actually these changes won't be so bad
<Mr_You> sense I seperate most of the site into parts
<Mr_You> and concatenate the parts
<chillywilly> jcater: I'm childish now?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> btw
<jcater> I said the email was childish
<jcater> not you
<chillywilly> I wrote the email
<jcater> I am not gonna have this conversation
<jcater> the day I see a document submission to gnue-clients from you is the day I will take your bitching seriously
<Mr_You> yeah just drop it chilly, everyone has said and done things that might be consider inappropriate by each side
<jcater> all you are doing is alienating me and making me want to drop out of this project
<jcater> is that what you want????
<Mr_You> you're alienating yourself too.. which I believe you or someone else already pointed out
<Mr_You> its really minor the in the big scheme of things
<Mr_You> and temporary.. 
<Mr_You> I think we should leave it at that
<Mr_You> those who oppose can join you in your argument and quest for change
<Mr_You> don't expect that to happen right away
<chillywilly> jcater: I don't want you to drop out, but you know how you fee right now that is how I feel when having to install a non-free hindered software and when I couldn't really read the forms technical refernce it realy sucked and when I asked jamest about not using LyX he basically bit my head off....but anyway I am dropping it now...
<chillywilly> sorry
<Mr_You> Freedom will come after everyone finishes their beer.. ;-)
<jcater> chillywilly: for the record, I've always understood your point... and like Mr_You said, this isn't permanent
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> or pepsi
<Mr_You> relating to another quote
<ajmitch> Mr_You: i know
<ajmitch> Mr_You: about phpgw moving off SF?
<Mr_You> yeah, atleast the article about SF in general
<Mr_You> signing over copyrights..
<chillywilly> SF is in a sad state
<Mr_You> seeing the demise of greatbridge.org and SF... I wonder the idea of setting up a public developer site like these
<chillywilly> I hope that GNUe can give Free Software a light unto a good business model
<Mr_You> what is their business model?
<chillywilly> whose?
<ajmitch> SF?
<chillywilly> selling proprieyary add-ons
<chillywilly> blech
<chillywilly> heathens!  ;)
<Mr_You> no FSF
<chillywilly> they're non-profit
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> come on now.. non-profit isn't a business model :-P hehe
<chillywilly> they take donations and sell CDs and t-shirts
<Mr_You> ahh
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> mand manuals
<chillywilly> and
<chillywilly> software manuals
<Mr_You> I tell you about my future music project which will be a non-profit?
<chillywilly> sorta
<chillywilly> tell me again
<Mr_You> sonicalchemy.org (nothing there yet)
<Mr_You> basicly the idea is sonicalchemy.org will be my music or collaborations with other unfamliar but really good musicians..
<Mr_You> or it will be a label.. or will still have a band, but I might not play in it.
<chillywilly> I was looking for a guitar pick earlier, but I could not find one
<Mr_You> its purpose will be to put more visibility to artist on the CDs or in the group for future work of these people outside of sonicalchemy.org
<chillywilly> then I gravitated toward my computer
<chillywilly> and forgot about jamming
<Mr_You> another member in the band will be donations to orgs like amnesty, greenpeace, etc..
<Mr_You> maybe FSF heh
<Mr_You> it will have a philosophy describing its purpose
<chillywilly> maybe that's why I ma just being a mean ol' bastard...I didn't rock out and unwind
<Mr_You> so what you think?
<chillywilly> cool
<Mr_You> it will take me a good while to get started, like most things I do hehe
<Mr_You> good things come in due time tho
<chillywilly> damn this is fucking frsutrating
Action: chillywilly beats head against desk repeatedly
<Mr_You> its a way for individual musicians to become more visible and in turn also contribute to a non-profit org
Action: chillywilly gives jcater a trout and lets him get some revenge ;)
<Mr_You> I was inspired by a christian group called echonet.org (I think) that donates/sales CDs to countries that need imported seeds to have a sustainable crop.. and they teach these farmers of arid areas how to maximize their irigation systems
<Mr_You> yeah thats the domain
<Mr_You> I said CDs?!?
<Mr_You> s/CDs//
<chillywilly> seeds?
<ajmitch> heh
<Mr_You> yeah.. one to 10 seeds have been know to reproduce thousands (in some cases hundreds of thousands) of sustainable and growing crops around the world
<Mr_You> because they choose plants that are best suited for that area..
<Mr_You> they also go to the local markets to see where and what is being sold
<Mr_You> as that is also important
<Mr_You> really impressed me, someone doing something right for a change
jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: 
<chillywilly> hold up
<chillywilly> GNUGNU    's   NN    NN  UU    UU                                                                   GG             OO N  OO  NN    NN                                                                   NN    GNU      TT  O TT  II    II                                                                   UUGNUGN U      NN    TN   XXUUXX              
<chillywilly> damn
<ajmitch> gege
<chillywilly> that got fscked up
<ajmitch> silly chillywilly
<Mr_You> chilly, whenever you get frustrated just put on a chillywilly cartoon ;-)
<Mr_You> I wish I had some heh
<chillywilly> if they would play something good on the scifi channel I would be ok
<chillywilly> [18:13:06] <chillywilly> GNUGNU    's   NN    NN  UU    UU        
<chillywilly> [18:13:13] <chillywilly> GG             OO N  OO  NN    NN        
<chillywilly> [18:13:20] <chillywilly> NN    GNU      TT  O TT  II    II       
<chillywilly> [18:13:27] <chillywilly> UUGNUGN U      NN    TN   XXUUXX        
<chillywilly> hehe
<Mr_You> whee
<Maniac> not to fan the flames, but isn't lyx GPL ? do you HAVE to install non GPL stuff to use lyx?
<Maniac> i thought that was only if you compiled your own?
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> np
<chillywilly> no
<Maniac> oh, what do you HAVE to install?
<chillywilly> links to libxforms
<chillywilly> xforms lib
<chillywilly> evil free beer
<chillywilly> :P
<mdean> LyX rocks!
<Isomer_> agreed
Action: Maniac gasps mdean!
<Isomer_> pity it uses a closed library
<mdean> as soon as it goes QT or GTK, I'll get rid of xforms
<mdean> xforms sux completely
<Maniac> it's actually a shitty toolkit anyways
<mdean> very
<chillywilly> mdean: you shouldn't use it anyway
<chillywilly> heretic
<chillywilly> you will be burned at the stake
<mdean> bah!  it does a great job at *document* processing
<chillywilly> no one expects the GNU inquisition
<Maniac> mdean: i've been peeking at webkit
<mdean> Maniac: finding good stuffs?
<Maniac> there don't seem to be any reference implementations
<Maniac> i.e. who actually has built somethin with it?
<chillywilly> mdean: so your freedom can be taked away if I write some software that rocks?
<chillywilly> taken
Action: Maniac notes he uses windows.....
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<mdean> chillywilly: eh?
<mdean> LyX saves a very significant amount of time assembling docs
<chillywilly> at the cost of making you use non-free software for all thr features
<mdean> and I know I'd rather be coding than documenting
<Maniac> i'd rather be sipping whiskey but that's besides the point :)
<chillywilly> that's a price I will not pay
<mdean> free beer is better than paying an arm and a leg for a commericial toolkit
<Maniac> someone needs to write phpgroupware ala webware
Action: Maniac still pays $1.50 for beer
<chillywilly> free beer is no better than proprietary....it is the same damn thing
<mcb> the lyx code itself is free.  the lyx team are making efforts to enable lyx to run with properly free toolkits.
<Maniac> lyx is GPL
<Maniac> says so on the website
<chillywilly> yes they are, but I am not going to us eit until then
<mdean> mcb: yeah - the Qt port is nearly complete it seems
<Maniac> http://www.devel.lyx.org/guii.php3
<Isomer_> I found bugs in LyX
<Maniac> looks liek their getting close
<Mr_You> mdean: chilly doesn't like QT tho ;-)
<Isomer_> which I think lies in xforms
<Maniac> Isomer_: just incomplete features
<chillywilly> but anyway damnit I don't wanna talk about this shit anymore...I hate QT it is dman ugly
<mdean> Mr_You: that's ok - everyone has their quirks
<Isomer_> Maniac: try starting it missing one of it's fonts, and it cores on startup
<Mr_You> mdean: yeah.. 
<Maniac> Isomer_: which ver?
<Isomer_> Maniac: no indication in anything (inc the backtrace) as to why
<Isomer_> dunno
Action: mdean wonders how a themeable toolkit can be ugly...
<chillywilly> why should I use a KDE desktop when I got a GNU desktop?
Action: Isomer_ got rid of it a while ago
<Maniac> Isomer_: in M$ you would need to re-install windows in order to fix that
<Isomer_> Maniac: true
<Isomer_> but when I've got a document due tomorrow
<mdean> chillywilly: you have a choice - which is what is *really* important
<Isomer_> it doesn't help me if I can't look at the code to figure out why and to fix it
Action: Maniac is back (gone 04:46:27)
<chillywilly> mdean: I choose GNU whenever I can
<chillywilly> that is *my* choice
<Mr_You> sorry your choice is a frustrating one
<chillywilly> bah, I need a break from this shit...time for some GNUe hacking....muuwahahahaaha
<chillywilly> Mr_You: eh?
<Isomer_> :)
<chillywilly> Mr_You: that is totally your opinion
<Mr_You> chillywilly: was sympathizing with you
<chillywilly> uh?
<Mr_You> empathizing?
<chillywilly> oh duh
<Mr_You> your choice appears to have created frustration
<chillywilly> whatever man I am burnt to a crisp
<chillywilly> me? them? who?
<chillywilly> stop conduzzzilating me :P
<Mr_You> for you mainly
<mdean> well, I for one am happy that I can run KDE or GNOME or Windowmaker or whatever - same for any productivity software
<mdean> it is all excellent software IMO
<Mr_You> yeah I choose to install all of those
<mdean> ja
<Mr_You> but I'll tell yah, its annoying when I run a GTK app and the GNOME tool bar comes up.. guess I can disable that somehow
<mdean> GNOME is pretty configurable
<chillywilly> Gnome is a real hackers desktop
<chillywilly> for that very reason
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> IMO, it shouldnt' do that by default
<Mr_You> maybe its fixed or will be
<Mr_You> hmm wonder what a fiberoptic christmas tree looks like.. just heard it mention in a mercial
<Mr_You> would make an interesting network topology if it was possible hehe
<chillywilly> dude it is those tree with the fibers sticking out
<chillywilly> they change colors and shit
<Mr_You> ah
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<mcb> woohoo!  I got python and glibmodule methods compiled into geas simultaneously!
<chillywilly> we need a language plugin system
<Mr_You> first things first ;-)
<chillywilly> and the methods are loaded on the fly too....I thought we could use a cache-like system
<chillywilly> and methods needs some sorta protection so a bad method will not bring the wole server down
<chillywilly> mcb: you up to that task ;)
<mcb> gimme a break - today is the first time I've programmed anything serious in C!
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> justs staing what needs to be done
<mdean> stop whining and start coding! ;-)
<mcb> dynamic loading looks as though it would be feasible
<ajmitch> chillywilly: yes, you take that advice, get to it before i set a trout on you!
<mcb> and it's something I'd liek to have, because it would make it much easier to prototype business objects
<chillywilly> ajmitch: no comments form the peanut gallery
<chillywilly> plz
<chillywilly> ;P
<mdean> has anyone else tried the site navigation bar in Mozilla?  it kicks arse!
<mcb30> but no more coding for me until I can commit what I've got to CVS, which means waiting for the FSF forms
<chillywilly> mdean: no way I use galeon
<chillywilly> :P
<mdean> may as well be using Mozilla ;-)
<chillywilly> mozilla doesn't do tabs
<mdean> the site nav bar puts links for site navigation
<mdean> does to
<chillywilly> and save sessions
<mdean> it's had tabs for a month or two
<mdean> and Galeon doesn't have the site nav bar
<chillywilly> wtf is that?
<mdean> makes reading GNUe docs easier
<chillywilly> ack!
<chillywilly> who would do such a thing ;)
<mdean> I have a bar with links for Top, Up, Previous, and Next
<mdean> some others are greyed out
<mdean> guess it recognizes docbook pages and can display the navbar for them
<chillywilly> but does it do LyX?
<mdean> oh, it can do it all! ;-)
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<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> I hate touch pads
<mdean> touch pads are e-ville
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<Mr_You> I've gotten use to them and I think I prefer them now..
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> touch padd?
<Mr_You> yeah
<chillywilly> pads
<Mr_You> bbl
<chillywilly> well accoridng to the mail list I am now both childish and irrational
<chillywilly> woohoo
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<Maniac> cool two things in one day!
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<jcater> 'sup all
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<Isomer> evenin'
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<dtm> hi all
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--- Sat Nov 17 2001