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<Mr_You> hey
<Mr_You> ra3vat
<ra3vat> hello Mr_You
<Mr_You> you have madlockes code?
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<Mr_You> I really would like to start working with it
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<Mr_You> lo?
<ra3vat> Mr_You: yes I have
<nickr> doo de
<ra3vat> but can't get it working
<Mr_You> can you send it somehow?
<ra3vat> email?
<Mr_You> you install the latest webware beta?
<ra3vat> cvs version
<Mr_You> ok
<Mr_You> I hope I can hack on it ;-)  first python experience hehe
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<Mr_You> whee
<Mr_You> http://people.vitalit.com/car/neatgoat.gif
<ra3vat> sent
<Mr_You> danke
<Mr_You> so this does not connect via GEAS?
<Mr_You> (yet?)
<ra3vat> it's just form's ui driver
<Mr_You> oh yeah.. 
<ra3vat> Mr_You: I still do not understand what should be placed on webware's side to run a form
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<psu> KC GNUe 3 is now up
<psu> I will do an announce to the gnuenterprise.org portal
<psu> and the gnue-discuss mailing list
<ra3vat> psu: you here?
<psu> yep
<psu> sorry, busy in another window
<psu> back now
<ra3vat> what is the procees to get KC translated into other languages? except just translating :)
<ra3vat> process
<psu> There is a standard format for the mark-up
<psu> which is explained on the KC web site
<psu> however, that should be language-independant.
<psu> I know Zack Brown has translations of other KCs 
<psu> so I assume he has all the issues sorted out
<psu> Main one that occours to me is that when I quote, 
<psu> I quote absolutely verbatim
<psu> ie word for word what was said
<psu> usually including any spelling/grammer mistakes
<psu> obviously this would get lost in the translation
<psu> but not really an issue, I think
<psu> http://kt.zork.net/trans.html
<psu> At the moment, the only Kernel Cousins with translations 
<psu> are the main Linux Traffic 
<ra3vat> usually quotes/terms left verbatim and "optional" translate also given
<psu> (Czech, French, German, Korean, Spanish, Polish)
<psu> and Debian KC has a Czech translation
<psu> Korean one uses non-Latin character set 
<psu> so that's obviously not an issue.
<ra3vat> do you advice to contact Zack Brown to start this?
<psu> I would encourage anyone with an interest 
<psu> to contact Zack 
<psu> oops, typed across each other there.
<ra3vat> ok
<psu> tell him I said hi ;-)
<ra3vat> :)
<psu> <zbrown@tumblerings.org>
<ra3vat> ok, thanks
<psu> I would put in the Russian for "peace be on you KC GNUe-translating efforts"
<psu> but I don't know it...
<psu> otherwise I'd do a Russian KC myself.
<psu> Like most English people,
<psu> I have a little bit of very rusty schoolboy French
<psu> "la plume de ma tante"
<psu> etc
<psu> OMG
<psu> just noticed I called Jason "Jeff" again
<psu> thanks for the tip-off
<psu> resubmit going in right away
<psu> this is beginning to get not funny
<psu> this time I definantly deserve a trout-slapping
Action: psu goes off for some curses
<psu> no, the other kind
<ra3vat> you asked for it :)
<psu> off to see how much of the French Kernel Traffic I can understand
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<ra3vat> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> hi
<ra3vat> any luck with uiwebware?
<ajmitch> i didn;t get the code
<ra3vat> why not?
<ajmitch> dunno ;)
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<ajmitch> i gues madlocke never got around to sending it
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<ajmitch> hi psu
<ajmitch> another KC done :)
<psu> hi aj
<psu> yep
<psu> still managed to call Jason "Jeff" in places
<ajmitch> heh
<psu> dunno how I managed that
<psu> correction already gone to Zack
<psu> I look like a bozo
<ajmitch> and how you can't clik on post by each person by their name?
<psu> not sure what you mean - there is an authors index
<psu> somwher
<psu> but at moment, I am polluting it 
<psu> rather badly
<psu> with both jcaters
<psu> not just one
<ajmitch> previous weeks have had a link to the authors beside each quote by the name
<psu> as well as potentially rubbing Jason up the wrong way
<psu> I'll check that 
<ajmitch> heh
<psu> I hadn't noticed that
<psu> either Zack has changed the format
<psu> or I've screwed up the mark-up
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<ajmitch> hi neilt
<neilt> hello all
<neilt> hello aj
<ajmitch> ok..
<ra3vat> back
<ajmitch> some small progress with UIwebware, i don't think forms likes an old pre 2 python :)
<ajmitch> but apart from that it must be loading the right stuff for my tracebacl to include webware & gnuef stuff ;)
<ra3vat> where do you place the driver?
<ajmitch> i chucked it in gnuef/src
<ajmitch> then ran setup.py install
<ajmitch> which landed it in /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms
<ajmitch> and i set that dir as an 'application' in the webware config
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/UIwebware.py", line 1, in ?
<ajmitch>     from UIbase import *
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/UIbase.py", line 32, in ?
<ajmitch>     from GFForm import *
<ajmitch>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/GFForm.py", line 38
<ajmitch>      from gnue.common.GDataObjects import ConnectionError as DBError
<ajmitch>                                                            ^
<ajmitch>  SyntaxError: invalid syntax
<ajmitch> last few lines in apache error.log
<ra3vat> ok, i have python > 2.0
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> i shoudl too :)
<ajmitch> night, i gotta get up in 5 hours :)
<Isomer> hrm
<Isomer> I just got killed compiling a linux kernel
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<reinhard> good morning chilly
<chillywilly> yo
<chillywilly> morning
<neilt> reinhard: hello
<neilt> chillywilly: hello
<chillywilly> or afternoon depending on where you are
<reinhard> hey neilt
<chillywilly> hi neilt
<reinhard> didn't see you're here
<reinhard> anybody know a way to quickly rename 146 files from uppercase filenames to lowercase filenames?
<chillywilly> anyone gonna be at LinuxWorld NYC in January?
<neilt> nope, except copy dir list to a file and create a shell script
<neilt> my text editor will convert them
<neilt> then a little copy and paste
<chillywilly> reinhard: what about tr?
<chillywilly>  #!/bin/sh
<chillywilly>           cat "$@" \
<chillywilly>             | tr -s '[:punct:][:blank:]' '\n' \
<chillywilly>             | tr '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]' \
<chillywilly>             | uniq -d
<chillywilly> can do some variation on that
<derek> chillywilly: we hope to send jcater
<reinhard> chillywilly: thanks good work
<chillywilly> derek: I should meet him there I am sure he would love to see me ;)
<chillywilly> I love info, it kicks man's ass
<chillywilly> GNUGNU  's   NN    NN  UU    UU         
<chillywilly> GG           OO \  OO  NN    NN  
<chillywilly> NN    GNU    TT  \ TT  II    II 
<chillywilly> UUGNUGN U    ==    ==   XX--XX  
<reinhard> chillywilly: you are a genius
<reinhard> $ for i in *
<reinhard> > do
<reinhard> > mv $i $(echo $i | tr [:upper:] [:lower:])
<reinhard> > done
<chillywilly> reinhard: I wouldn't go that far
<reinhard> chillywilly: ok, you were just lucky ;)
<chillywilly> reinhard: I just rtfm'd
<chillywilly> 'info tr'
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/mlview/
<chillywilly> anyone ever try this?
<chillywilly> axml editor for Gnome
<chillywilly> s/axml/xml
<reinhard> $ uname -s
<reinhard> SCO_SV
<reinhard> :P
<derek> im sure he would like to meet you chillywilly
<reinhard> yeah in a dark corner of a lonely street
<reinhard> j/k
<chillywilly> derek: oh I am sure he would as you know I am his favorite person
<chillywilly> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:55:55 -0600                                                               From: root@obfuscation.dyndns.org (Anacron)                                                         To: root@obfuscation.dyndns.org                                                                     Subject: Anacron job 'cron.monthly'                                                                                                    
<chillywilly>                                                           /etc/cron.monthly/vrms:                                                                             No non-free packages installed on obfuscation! rms would be proud.                                 
<chillywilly> =)
<chillywilly> I'd like to jeep things that way
<chillywilly> keep
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<chillywilly> speak of the devil
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<reinhard> every time i write a shell script
<reinhard> i ask myself how i ever could write dos batch files that actually _did_ something
<jcater> morning all
<reinhard> morning jcater
<chillywilly> morning jc
<jcater> reinhard: yeah, dos is hell
<jcater> james and I have been testing forms on windows
<jcater> and we can't even scroll back to see the full errors reported
<jcater> and we can't redirect errors to a file!
<reinhard> omg
<jcater> at least using the traditional command.com
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<reinhard> happy splitting!
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<derek> jcater: scrollback is my #1 piss me off :)
<derek> about dos
<reinhard> hey derek, good morning
<jcater> :)
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<reinhard> derek: is #fsfeurope and #gnubiz still as dead as it used to be?
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<neilt> disagreeing with someones opinion or approach is way different than having a problem with them as a person
<reinhard> yes
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<reinhard> but otoh, having a problem with someone as a person makes it easier to disagree with his opinion
<reinhard> j/k
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<neilt> chillywilly_: disagreeing with someones opinion or approach is way different than having a problem with them as a person
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<jcater> argh!
<jcater> I'm out of anise pods for my poached pears
<jcater> bbiab
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<chillywilly> fucking cat!
<chillywilly> I am gonna kill that damn thing
<chillywilly> it jumped up onto my desk and knocked shit all over and upplugged my modem
<reinhard> chillywilly: wait till it learns how to press the reset button!
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<chillywilly> reinhard: seriously?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<reinhard> i would like to see a cat press ctrl-alt-delete :)
<chillywilly> lol
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<reinhard> bbl
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<chillywilly> "BitchX: the new hardcore, psycho, nitro client -- in a can"
<derek> wait till it decides to 'mark its territory' and considers your PC its territory...
<chillywilly> uh, no way dude
<derek> why chillywilly your PC smells like ammonia....
<chillywilly> that cat will die then
<derek> chillywilly: 'shut up dood, the cat ....'
<chillywilly> it is a female though
<derek> oh
<chillywilly> so I don't think that will be happening
<chillywilly> plus if I am always on my computer how will it get near it to do that?
<chillywilly> ;)
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<chillywilly> anyone ever watch mystery science theatre 3000?
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<chillywilly> where this guy and 2 robots watch old movies and make funny comments
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<chillywilly> wb jc
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<chillywilly> yo psu
<psu> yo cw
<derek> good KC
<psu> thanks
<derek> you almost make it sound like i understand what i am saying
<psu> I still managed to call Jason "Jeff" a few times ;-(
<chillywilly> I thought I read that ine a few days ago
<chillywilly> one
<chillywilly> psu: naughty naughty
<derek> did you submit to linuxtoday?
<psu> i'm here for a trout-slapping as punishment
<psu> derek - happens automagically, I'm told
Action: chillywilly trout slaps psu hard for calling Jason, "Jeff"
<chillywilly> psu: it is setup like that?
<psu> what - linuxtoday, KC or your trout?
<chillywilly> linuxtoday
<psu> I think so. All the KCs end up on linuxtoday
<psu> not sure if Zack pushes or linuxtoday pulls
<psu> as it were
<derek> :)
<derek> i think they are probably pushed,but i could be wrong
<derek> if you call jason jeff, call him jeff carter :)
<derek> its an 'inside joke' (the carter part)
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> hrrm
<chillywilly> hey jeff carter what's up?
Action: psu cowers
Action: derek must run to soccer
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<derek> nevermind babysitter showed
<derek> i get to stay
<chillywilly> babysitter?
<chillywilly> the wife isn't around?
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<derek> wife is here
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<derek> we are having yardsale
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<derek> thought it would take most of day to get garage clean and wife was to teach aerobics class
<derek> daughter had soccer game so wife got babysitter to take daughter to game
<derek> then ended up being able to find a substitute for her class
<chillywilly> dude I am sick of political correctness
<derek> normally i would have called the babysitter and taken daughter
<derek> BUT been a long time since the babysitter has come over and the kids adore her
<derek> they WANTED her and not me to take them :)
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<derek> man chewing through email is a pian
<derek> pain
<derek> been at it over an hour and still have like 45 to go
<derek> sigh
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<derek> mmmmm im on like myh 5th donut this morning.... getting bad habits from jcater
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> btw: jcater what is release status?
<derek> what needs testing?
<derek> what needs fixing...
<derek> etc etc etc
<derek> i have some time
<jcater> derek: can you do a sample intro form??
<jcater> I'm on the way out of town
<jcater> we are having issues w/designer on win32
<jcater> after that, we release :)
<derek> ok
<jcater> btw, issues w/designer on win32 isn't reason I'm on the way out of town
<derek> any specs on said form?
<derek> rofl
<derek> im thinking a tabbed form
<jcater> um
<jcater> tabs
<derek> where every tab is a sample
<jcater> no datasources of course
<derek> so like
<derek> tab <entry>
<derek> tab combo
<derek> tab grid
<derek> tab button
<derek> etc etc
<derek> etc
<derek> do tabs work in designer?
<jcater> you can set them up
<jcater> but you only see one atg a time in designer
<jcater> i.e., each tab is a separate "grid"
<derek> otay
Action: derek slurps cvs
<neilt-away> derek: we have request from "Michael Brown (mcb30)" <mbrown@fensystems.co.uk>
<neilt-away> for assignment paperwork
<neilt-away> please expedite if possible
<neilt-away> he already has code to send us for geas
<neilt-away> to make C and pyhton methods work at the same time
<jcater> neilt-away: I already sent him the stuff
<neilt-away> cool
<neilt-away> thanks
<jcater> derek: hope that was ok
<jcater> did it yesterday afternoon
<jcater> be back tonight
<jcater> l8r
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<derek> neilt-away: its happening
<derek> i told him to send the patch he had to info@gnue.org and we would apply it w/o copyright fully completed
<derek> as its a minor patch
<derek> relatively speaking
<derek> and the paperwork is started
<neilt-away> cool, thanks
<derek> also told him generally we dont give cvs immediately
<derek> we usually require several patches first
<derek> even with copyright assignment
<neilt-away> ok, reinhard and I will check out the quality of the patches
<neilt-away> and let you know
<derek> just fyi we started doing this cause too many people sent assignment but never did code
<derek> or only sent one patch and disappeared
<neilt-away> sounds good
<derek> and the work of fighting with FSF hackers to create and destroy accounts is too painful unless its a regular contributor :)
<neilt-away> is reinhard on the distribution for info@gnue.org?
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<derek> um i think so
<derek> he was not
<derek> i just added him though :)
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<derek> i need sleep
<chillywilly> nah
<chillywilly> sleep is for the weak or non-caffienated
<chillywilly> (same thing ;) )
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<reinhard> derek: thanks for subscribing me to info@gnu.org
<reinhard> iirc i wanted to subscribe but somehow i forgot
<chillywilly> am I subscribed?
<chillywilly> dude I wish mailman was more like an account where you could login then just some forms and crap
<reinhard> chillywilly: i guess only the "sub-maintainers" are subscribed
<chillywilly> then I could modify my email address for lists without having to unsubscribe and then resubscribe
<chillywilly> eh?
<chillywilly> sub-maintainers?
<chillywilly> wtf is that?
<reinhard> well at least that is what i would call it
<reinhard> like the official maintainers for the overall project are jamest and derek
<reinhard> but the defacto maintainer of reports is jcater
<reinhard> the defacto maintainer of geas are neilt and me
<chillywilly> and I am a nobody, yes I see your point
<reinhard> i would happily change jobs with you i think
<reinhard> having responsibility for a part of the project is no easy job
<reinhard> being a contributor is far easier :)
<chillywilly> what would you think of business objects being parsed into GObjects?
<reinhard> can you explain more?
<chillywilly> ok
<reinhard> what it would mean and what we would gain from it
<chillywilly> basically we derive a modifiable object form GObject that ha s ahash table or whatever for methods and fields
<chillywilly> this way we can update the object on the fly
<chillywilly> by reparsing the gcd files
<chillywilly> but we get real inheritance too
<chillywilly> evertually these GObject will talk to our OO communication abstraction layer
<chillywilly> so they can alos be remote
<reinhard> hmmm
<chillywilly> are you creating some struct that is supposed to be a business object?
<chillywilly> aren't
<chillywilly> why not have areal Object system instaed of a C struct
<reinhard> actually i have now a strut with a hash table for methods and fields
<chillywilly> yes
<reinhard> yes
<chillywilly> that can be adapted to a GObject and we gain all the cool stuff
<reinhard> well not a hash table but a double-linked list for some reasons
<chillywilly> run time type checking
<chillywilly> signals and slots
<chillywilly> etc.
<chillywilly> inheritance
<reinhard> not inheritance imho
<chillywilly> you gonna so all that crap yourself?
<reinhard> or would you make each business object its own gobject class?
<chillywilly> liek make the strict contain the parent as a member?
<chillywilly> ummm
<chillywilly> maybe just a generic one
<reinhard> i mean
<chillywilly> like it is now
<reinhard> would you register item as an object class
<chillywilly> have to think about it
<reinhard> and customer as one
<reinhard> etc
<reinhard> i think that would be full bloated in the end
<reinhard> and if you just have a single generic one
<chillywilly> C objects just aen't very modifiable that is what sorta sucjs
<reinhard> you won't have inheritance
<chillywilly> you have to have inheritance
<reinhard> i had a close look at GObject some time ago
<chillywilly> that's how you extend OO stuff
<reinhard> and it's a good idea in principle
<chillywilly> you biuld a framework
<reinhard> but it adds a lot of overhead
<chillywilly> and extend it to do specific things
<chillywilly> like for my simualtion library you have to derive form the GSim object the Simulation object and the SimEvent and/or SimProcess objects
<chillywilly> over load the proper methods, etc.
<reinhard> yeah
<reinhard> there are cases where you gain a lot from oop
<chillywilly> why go half OO when you can use an Object system that exists and base things from that? We can still have one interface to all objects to reduce marshalling
<reinhard> and there are cases where you don't
<chillywilly> well an app serve that si supposed to serve objects only makes sense to be OO
<chillywilly> imho
<chillywilly> anyway, soon as I release GSim
<chillywilly> I am gonna look at your parser and GObject and see what I can come up with
<chillywilly> if that is ok
<reinhard> sure
<reinhard> seeing code is always better than just talking :)
<reinhard> helps a lot to understand
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> I do a lot of talking I know
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> I just have to get this other thing done
<chillywilly> it is haunting me
<reinhard> btw derek: i added michael brown to the list of sponsors, i hope that's ok
<reinhard> chillywilly: np
<reinhard> the good thing about free software projects is that there is no strict timeline :)
<chillywilly> thanks for understanding
<reinhard> chillywilly: i basically understand you 100%
<reinhard> which doesn't mean that I agree 100%
<reinhard> but I understand at least :)
<chillywilly> what is there to disagree about?
<reinhard> chillywilly: you are more the type to push forward
<reinhard> i am a type to "slow down" so to speak
<chillywilly> hmmm
<reinhard> where i mean i tend to think twice before doing something
<chillywilly> I am not sure what you mean
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> not sure if that is good or bad
Action: reinhard goes to fetch his dictionary
<chillywilly> you mean I am unruly and ijust hack away?
<chillywilly> :P
<reinhard> you are easy to fill with enthusiasm
<reinhard> i am not
<chillywilly> oooh
<chillywilly> yes I get nuts about things
<chillywilly> ;)
<reinhard> you are open for new ideas
<reinhard> i am rather a precautious type
<chillywilly> ok
<reinhard> not that i am conservative
<chillywilly> I get you now
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> wrt if it's good or bad
<reinhard> i can say for 100% sure
<reinhard> it's GOOD to have both extremes in the project
<reinhard> as when you start to run blindly into some random direction
<reinhard> i can try to stop you
<reinhard> and when i am too stubborn about things
<reinhard> you can kick my butt :)
<chillywilly> well I just want to do real OO coding in C and GObject lets you do that
<chillywilly> to a better degree than anything I can come up with
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I always got my trout with me
<chillywilly> ;P
<reinhard> lol
<reinhard> bbl
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<derek> rofl
<derek> rm-away: definitely cool you add him as sponsor
<derek> and i agree its 100% good to have varying dependencies w/in gnue
<derek> wrt to personalities
<derek> it provides built in check and balance system
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<chillywilly> bah, I need thread safe C++ I/O
<chillywilly> maybe I should contribute some to GNU Common C++?
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<chillywilly> hi sevik
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<chillywilly> hi mcb30
<mcb30> hi
<reinhard> hello mcb30
<reinhard> mcb30: 
<reinhard> as an aside
<reinhard> are you familiar with the gnu coding standards?
<reinhard> (if yes please forgive the question) :)
<mcb30> not at all
<reinhard> maybe you might want to read them
<reinhard> just a sec i'll give you the url
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<reinhard> sorry can't reach www.gnu.org at the moment
<reinhard> will give you later
<mcb30> ok
<reinhard> it's just a list of some hints
<reinhard> to make code more standardized
<mcb30> i basically copied the style from the existing code
<mcb30> e.g:
<mcb30> if
<mcb30>   {
<reinhard> that's good in any case :)
<mcb30>     code
<mcb30>   }
<reinhard> yep
<reinhard> btw sorry for the burocracy (sp?)
<mcb30> although "switch" seemed to be indented differently as
<mcb30> switch {
<reinhard> fsf has made several bad experiences in the past
<reinhard> for example they took big contributions from people
<reinhard> and later found out that somebody has copyright on that contributed code
<reinhard> and objected to gpl it
<mcb30> bureaucracy is OK as long as it doesn't hinder actual work - a 3/4 week delay before being able to commit is verging on being a hindrance...
<reinhard> for example the employer of the person
<chillywilly> mcb30: tp create a patch form cvs just do "cvs fidd > file.patch"
<chillywilly> s/tp/to
<chillywilly> woops
<reinhard> and they had to sort out that stuff again
<chillywilly> cvs diff < file.patch
<chillywilly> dman
<chillywilly> tye again
<chillywilly> try
<mcb30> I know what you mean
<chillywilly> cvs diff > file.patch
<chillywilly> there
<mcb30> that's the one
<mcb30> yes, hadn't thought of that rather obvious way to do it (d'oh!)
<reinhard> bbl
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
Nick change: mcb30 -> mcb30-away
<chillywilly> also I think it is common practice everywhere to not give out cvs commit access willynilly
<rm-away> mcb30-away: http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards_toc.html is the link
Nick change: mcb30-away -> mcb30
<mcb30> on the subject of coding standards: why is there no debug_output macro within geas?
<mcb30> like the ones in other parts of GNUe?
<mcb30> and is there a standard that indicates when it is (un)acceptable to use return() in the middle of a function?
<chillywilly> void
<chillywilly> SimEvent::setSuspend ()
<chillywilly> {
<chillywilly>   suspendlock.EnterMutex ();
<chillywilly>   suspended = true;
<chillywilly>   Suspend ();
<chillywilly> bad chillywilly
<chillywilly> suspend the thread wihtou releasing the lock
<chillywilly> doh!
<chillywilly> mcb30: I think that is just some CS proffs hang ups
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> they claim that multiple return paths makes it harder to figure out what is going on
<chillywilly> or something
<chillywilly> I forget the reason exactly
<mcb30> no - I nearly created a memory leak when patching yesterday because memory is allocated at the start of a function and then has to be freed at each of the possible exit points
<chillywilly> aaah
<chillywilly> well that's a good reason not to have multiple return paths
<mcb30> I restructured the routine so that there was only a single exit point - made it easier to read as well (it was a routine I was modifying anyway)
<mcb30> ignore my comment about debug_output; was grepping the wrong part of the source code.
<chillywilly> you should post your patch to the list
<chillywilly> that's probably a good way for us to do things as the hurd does that too with ppl who do not have direct cvs access but contribute
<chillywilly> then ppl can look at it and discuss things if need be
<chillywilly> or just commit it
<chillywilly> :)
<derek> mcb30: i think it was just undisciplined programming :)O
<nickr> is there a site to learn python?
<derek> i.e. the original author of those routines not thinking big picture
<derek> nickr: if you know a computer language already
<derek> you know python by default :)
<nickr> heh.
<nickr> I just need to know the restrictions.
<derek> it really is that clean
<derek> the restrictions are not much
<derek> you can make it behave like a functional language like lisp etc
<derek> even
<nickr> Hows tha?
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<nickr> Is there a Dictionary or associative array data type?
<jamest> you asking me?
<jamest> cause I don't know (assuming this is geas)
<mcb30> Request: does python_execute_function() in method_python.c actually do anything useful?  It doesn't get called by anywhere
<nickr> no, and I shouldn't be this lazy anyway
<chillywilly> nickr: python has a dictionary
<chillywilly> python does not do "encapsulation" well
<chillywilly> i.e., no private, public, etc.
<nickr> I never use that anyway
<chillywilly> no better than OO C stuff
<chillywilly> well if you are a good programmer you will not use fields that aren't supposed to be used directly you will call a method ;)
<nickr> I never access members in my objects
<chillywilly> that's good practice
<chillywilly> does ObjC have protection mechanisms?
<nickr> I don't think so
<chillywilly> not surprising
<chillywilly> ;)
<nickr> Either you can't access members directly or you can't protect them
<nickr> I think its the former
<nickr> Even if it isn't, nobody does it anyway
<chillywilly> you shouldn't
<chillywilly> nickr: python is easy, I am sure you'll pick it right up
<nickr> my girlfriend convinced me to help her write her Python oregon trail game
<nickr> So don't think I'm selling out or something.
<chillywilly> selling out?
<Maniac-yawa> pyton rocks
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<Maniac> nickr: http://www.diveintopython.org
<nickr> how do I negate a boolean?
<chillywilly> er?
<nickr> foo = 1
<nickr> !foo
<nickr> how?
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<reinhard> mcb30: three things
<reinhard> 1. if you find a function that is never called it is probably a left-over from one of the numerous code reorgs :)
<reinhard> 2. re: what derek said
<reinhard> <derek> i.e. the original author of those routines not thinking big picture
<reinhard> to save my reputation: i am not the original author, neither is neilt :)
<reinhard> 3. you seem to have some thoughts about coding style
<reinhard> i have started a little project collecting ideas about good coding style
<reinhard> http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/style-guide/
<reinhard> if you are bored please take a look and give your input :)
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<nickr> okay, Python IS pretty easy.
<nickr> I think I can make a preprocessor that turns Python into Objective C
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> that's what you mean by selling out? Not writing it in Objective C?
<neilt> nickr: cool
<neilt> I would use it immediately
<neilt> long love objective-c
<neilt> s/love/live
<nickr> I think its pretty esaily done
<nickr> at least for the class definition part
<nickr> which is the part I hate most about objc
<neilt> nickr: i have never written anything in objective-c, but its the native language for all the new mac stuff so it has to be the best :)
<nickr> Hah
<nickr> I love the core language, because I like C to start with, and it adds a very friendly OO layer
<nickr> but OpenStep, oy
<chillywilly> neilt: that's a lame reason
<neilt> chillywilly:  could be
<neilt> but i suspect not
<chillywilly> I suspect that forming an opinion of something you haven't used is always lame
<neilt> but I have looked at it, and I have seen total apps written with 100 lines of code.  So its not only the language, but also the power of the frameworks that come alone also. You really dont think I would form an opinion soly on that do you?
<nickr> the frameworks are ugly but easy, imho
<nickr> I'm writing my own base classess so I can be closer to the meat
<neilt> ny fugly, you mean non-intuitive?
<neilt> s/ny/by
<nickr> Hmm, no
<chillywilly> neilt: well what do you think? I am the "irrational" one
<nickr> I mean 'created by someone who's assumptions about data modeling are different than mine and so not comfortable for me to use'
<neilt> chillywilly:  i would say you are opinionated
<neilt> not irrational, at least based on what I see
<neilt> nickr: :)
<nickr> therefore I set out to make a class library that models data the way I look at things
<neilt> nickr: yes, i love the freedom of this new world, dont like it do it yourself
<chillywilly> nickr: GNU Common ObjC?
<chillywilly> :P
<nickr> chillywilly: no.
<chillywilly> nickr: you should make it a GNU project ;)
<chillywilly> nickr: as you don;t care for GNUStep right?
<reinhard> night all
<nickr> Correcti
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<chillywilly> night
<nickr> it will do a lot of what common C++ does
<nickr> I'm not going to write it all asa  theoretically perfect base class library, though
<nickr> It'll be easier if I just write them as I use them
<nickr> I have linked lists and strings, thats all I need right now
<chillywilly> well dude that's how GNU Common C++ came to be just factored out code from Bayonne, iirc
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<ra3vat> i've just uploaded sample form with non-ascii labels for test purposes to:
<ra3vat> http://www.gnuenerprise.org/~dimas/samples/forms/helloworld2_ru.gfd
<ra3vat> er
<ra3vat> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dimas/samples/forms/helloworld2_ru.gfd
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<nickr> chillywilly: neat.
<neilt> mcb30:  you here?
<neilt> mcb30: i have no way to compile and test, is anyone here that can check mcb30's changes to assure they dont break cvs (ie they compile)
<neilt> if i check them in
<neilt> ok, here we go anyway
<mcb30> yes I'm here
<neilt> changes are commited to cvs
<mcb30> thanks
<neilt> would you checkout and make sure they work
<mcb30> just about to do it
Nick change: Isomer_ -> Isomer
<mcb30> all ok
<mcb30> "make clean ; make" and it works
<neilt> cool
<mcb30> neilt: although there are a couple of probs I had with the Makefiles - are you any good with autoconf/automake?  (I don't know anything about them)
<neilt> nope that is reinhard
<neilt> that does all of the make for geas
<mcb30> it's probably a general question
Action: chillywilly is
<mcb30> basically it doesn't pick up my python libraries properly
<mcb30> (was doing this even before my patches)
<chillywilly> hmmm
<neilt> how did you run ./autogen.sh
<mcb30> it picks up -lpython but not -L/usr/lib/python2.1/config
<mcb30> yes
<mcb30> oh
<mcb30> just "autogen.sh --enable-methods=python"
<mcb30> then modifed config.h to use glibmodules methods as well
<chillywilly> yea, unfortunately it is sucky like that
<mcb30> then ran the make
<chillywilly> you should hack it ;)
<chillywilly> now that they both work together
<chillywilly> or someone else can
<mcb30> I never figured out how the whole autoconf/automake thing worked -
<mcb30> I've done lots of rpm-building and the ones that use auto{conf,make} and go wrong are always the worst :-(
<chillywilly> mcb30: I have some nice tutorials if you are willing to read
<mcb30> ok
<neilt> i dropped a note to reinhard
<neilt> he should get it tomorrow
<mcb30> thanks
<neilt> and he has been very good with the configure system
Action: chillywilly will fix it
<mcb30> I think I can figure out how to change --enable-methods=xxx to --enable-methods-python and --enable-method-glibmodule
<neilt> chillywilly: cool
<chillywilly> mcb30: http://www.amath.washington.edu/~lf/tutorials/autoconf/
<mcb30> cheers
<neilt> chillywilly: be ssure to check that on or the other and both is ok, but none is not acceptable
<chillywilly> mcb30: well if you want to do it go ahaed
<chillywilly> mcb30: how does it work right now with your changes?
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<mcb30> The "provider" list that each methods_*.c implemented is now common and held in methods.c instead
<mcb30> I added a field to the provider list that is an enum type saying which "language" the method is in (python/glibmodule)
<chillywilly> eeek, man I really need real OO ;)
<mcb30> Each methods_*.c had an execute_method function that scanned the provider list looking for a match and then invoked it
<chillywilly> yea
<mcb30> I made that code common to both and put it in methods.c
<chillywilly> you run the test thatexecutes a python method?
<mcb30> so now methods.c does the scanning the list and when it finds a match it dispatches it to the relevant methods_*.c
<mcb30> Yes, I wished I was using an OO language as well :-)
<chillywilly> mcb30: just another reason to use the new glib and GObject ;)
<mcb30> don't get the question: "you run the test thatexecutes a python method?"
<chillywilly> you can setup geas to read in the gcd files in gnue-config and run the test that connects to the server and executes a method
<chillywilly> actually neilt has a nice test too I think
<mcb30> all: is it acceptable to have no method handling support built in to GEAS, or must at least one be compiled in?  code currently supports no methods (it will return errors if you try to use methods)?
<mcb30> OIC
<neilt> run neil_methods_test.py
<neilt> to test
<nickr> hmm, hwo do you create a global variable in python that you can modify from a function?
<chillywilly> I thinkn configure should fail if they do not turn one on
<mcb30> I used the ones in examples/businessobjects/methods
<mcb30> for testing
<chillywilly> ok
<neilt> chillywilly:  thats correct one or the other or both are ok
<chillywilly> yes, at least one
<neilt> try also geas/examples/python
<neilt> for tests
<mcb30> ok
<mcb30> should default be to compile in support for all method types (i.e. use --disable-methods )?
<chillywilly> well...
<chillywilly> what good would the server be with 0 methods?
<neilt> i would agrree to default for both
<mcb30> I'll reword that: should default be to compile in support for all method types (i.e. use --disable-methods-{python,glibmodule} if you don't want it compiled in#)?
<neilt> but if you configure one, the other does not get configured
<mcb30> huh?
<chillywilly> hmmm
<neilt> or that
<mcb30> examples of configure options and what you would expect to happen, please?
<mcb30> I'm thinking:
<mcb30> (no options) - support for all types
<neilt> default = both
<chillywilly> I think I like compiling all methods by default...eventually if we have language plugins we can do somethng different
<mcb30> (--enable-methods-python)  -- support all types
<mcb30> (--disable-methods-pythong) -- support all types except python
<neilt> --enable-methods-python for python only
<neilt> --enable-methods-glibmodule for glib only
<mcb30> isn't that confusing?  
<mcb30> If I specify --enable-methods-python I wouldn't expect it to affect glibmodule methods
<neilt> or --enable-methods-python and --enable-methods-glibmodule to do the same as the default
<neilt> it would not effect glib module, it would just not compile it in
<mcb30> since --enable-methods-XXX would be new anyway, how about not including it and just having --disable-methods-XXX?
<neilt> because i hate negative configuration options
<neilt> what happens when we add objective-c methods
<neilt> then you have to know what to disable
<neilt> to make it work
<mcb30> I think this needs to be written by someone who knows autoconf!  :-)
<neilt> i think we should have option that turn on support for each type of methods
<chillywilly> compile all by default
<neilt> no not all
<chillywilly> they have to disable the ones they do not want
<neilt> just glib and python
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> then those 2 by default
<neilt> if we add more types of methods they are not in the default
<mcb30> all by default, I think - speaking as a packager I know that it's common to not check the available option set before you compile 
<chillywilly> the rest shoudl be --enabled?
<mcb30> and what's so special about python and glibmodules anyway?
<neilt> chillywilly: yes
<chillywilly> mcb30: yes, that is what i was thinking
<neilt> we support them right now
<mcb30> <g>
<chillywilly> mcb30: python is our preferred langauge and glib is our preferred C  lib
<neilt> and we want to limit the number of dependencies
<mcb30> and I thought this would be a simple question!
<neilt> in the normal install
<chillywilly> usually you have them turn on the hariy/untested features which would be new method code for other langauges
<mcb30> OK, I'm definitely leaving the configure script to someone else!
<chillywilly> ;)
<mcb30> For the purposes of coding, all I need to know is:
<neilt> yes cw or reinhard will do the configure script
<mcb30> if no method types are #defined, then should:
<neilt> easy for me to say :)
<mcb30> a) #error to abort the build process
<mcb30> b) error at runtime if you try to actually use a method?
<chillywilly> those defines checked in methods.c are fronm config.h
<neilt> mcb30: b) with write to log
<mcb30> ok, in which case:
<chillywilly> mcb30: there will always be some method support
<mcb30> aaargh
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<neilt> during the build process a strong warning should be issued
<mcb30> How about:
<mcb30> a) #warning during build process, AND
<mcb30> b) error at runtime (with write to log) whenever you attempt to use a method?
<neilt> hold on
<neilt> in thinking about this more
<mcb30> holding
<chillywilly> mcb30: this is for the case that they --disable everything?
<neilt> methods are central to the geas and gnue-config
<neilt> i rethink that during config one type of methods is required
<chillywilly> O say you can only enable and disable development method provider code
<mcb30> ok
<mcb30> can I therefore assume that the code itself does NOT need to check to see that at least one method type is defined?
<neilt> make that at least one type of method is required
<chillywilly> glibmodule an python is not really development per se, they have been around a while and is the only thing we got
<chillywilly> neilt: we should just not let them even diable that one
<neilt> mcb30:  i think that is correct, you can rely on at least one type being required from configure script
<chillywilly> diable
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> typing sucks
<chillywilly> :P
<mcb30> OK.  I will take out the bits of the code that deal with the case of "no methods defined".  Any objections?
<chillywilly> nope
<neilt> nope
<chillywilly> it is unnecessary
<mcb30> good
<mcb30> that makes life easier for me
<mcb30> and the code will be easier to read
<mcb30> New topic: any comments on my e-mail about dynamic methods (sent to geas list about 15 mins ago)?
<mcb30> back in 5 mins
<neilt> yes
<chillywilly> well I'd rahter have a meth provider factory class and load the the thing dynamically and use GObject.....but that may not happen for a while
<chillywilly> if I can convince some ppl ;)
<chillywilly> s/meth/method
<chillywilly> who is dmitry?
<chillywilly> is that you ra3vat?
<chillywilly> ah yes it is
<chillywilly> :P
<mcb30> back now
<mcb30> fire away
<chillywilly> well I'd liek the ability to mix and match methods
<chillywilly> some in C, some in python, some in whatever langauge
<mcb30> you've got that at the moment
<chillywilly> but at the object level
<mcb30> meaning?
<chillywilly> so an object acna have a method in whatever langauge and can even have other methods in another langauge
<mcb30> yes, that works as of now
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> now I thought the scenario would be like
<chillywilly> a method request comes in
<mcb30> btw, I'm trying to read your thing on autoconf but all the links point back to the same top-level document...
<chillywilly> it consulta the cache
<chillywilly> if nothing is found that implements that language it would interrogate any other plugins
<chillywilly> and add those entries to the cache
<mcb30> you mean "implements that method"?
<chillywilly> and eventually return something that can execute the method
Action: jcater is away: pizza and donut run
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> implements the language...you load the interpreter or whatever
<chillywilly> then you can lod the method
<chillywilly> and execute it
<chillywilly> might be kinda slow though
<chillywilly> so you can use a chache or whatnot...maybe jeep the plugins loaded once executed the first time
<mcb30> that would be "lazy method loading" - would give faster startup but first invocation of each method would be slow
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> exactly
<chillywilly> jsut the ideas that I had from before
<chillywilly> as I was supposed to redo metods
<mcb30> and to force a reload, you just need to reset the cache
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> yea
<Isomer> did you read about KDE and lazy loading?
<chillywilly> sorta like how ld works and ls.so.conf
<mcb30> blame neilt: he challenged me to get both python and glibmodule working at the same time yesterday! :-)
<neilt> :)
<chillywilly> well i have been too busy with this other thing and I don;t care if you work on methods
<chillywilly> I welcome it :)
<chillywilly> thanks
<chillywilly> Isomer: what's that?
<mcb30> sure?  I don't want to tread on anyone's toes here
<mcb30> and I didn't know it was already planned
<chillywilly> don't sweat it there's plenty of other fish to fry in GEAS
<neilt> we've all lost our toes, so not worry
<chillywilly> lol
<Isomer> chillywilly: KDE was having massive problems with startup times on apps because C++ required that it's virtual tables not be lazy linked
<Isomer> chillywilly: Gnome was loading way <1s, KDE was taking 2 or 3s to load an app
<Isomer> and 99% of that time was the fact that KDE was doing linking
<Isomer> where Gnome could defer it
<chillywilly> well we use C :P
<chillywilly> shouldn;t be a problem
<Isomer> precisely why Gnome didn't have the problem
<Isomer> but you were discussing Lazy linking, I thought I'd drop the datapoint in :)
<chillywilly> uhuh
<chillywilly> GNU Common C++'s Dso class has the same issues I think
<chillywilly> those pesky virtual tables
<Isomer> yeah well, KDE's done a lot of work and found work arounds
<Isomer> I'm not entirely sure how
<Isomer> I think it involved improving the C++ linker
<chillywilly> welll I havea kick ass templatized plugin thing I stole, but we're using C so it is useless
<chillywilly> :(
<Isomer> doh!
<chillywilly> btw, GObject already loads "objects" from dsos if you use GTypeModule
<chillywilly> it will load new 
<chillywilly> "types" from a dll
<chillywilly> yay
<chillywilly> I am repeating myself
<chillywilly> doh
Action: chillywilly goes off to hack once again....let me at those threads!
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<chillywilly> okie
<ra3vat> if it's of interest 
<ra3vat> gotmadlocke's code works here
<ra3vat> thnks him, it is great
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<chillywilly> kewl
<Isomer> what does gotmadlocke's code do?
<chillywilly> ra3vat: commit it quick!
<ra3vat> ajmitch: it require tons of additional files as I now know
<ra3vat> Isomer: web driver for forms
<ra3vat> chillywilly: :)
<ra3vat> Isomer: using webware
<Isomer> Excellent!
Action: Isomer does the very happy dance
Action: chillywilly does too
<ra3vat> jcater: you here?
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:42:24)
<jcater> yes
<ra3vat> tried windows install
<jcater> how'd it go?
<jcater> I know designer has many issues
<ra3vat> default encoding always leave as ascii
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<ra3vat> so non ascii forms does not work
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> were the linux versions in CVS working for you?
<ra3vat> and please look at this aout GetDefaultEncoding in wxPython:
<ra3vat> http://lists.wxwindows.org/pipermail/wxpython-users/2000-October/003580.html
<ra3vat> same problem here - GetDefaultEncoding does not exist
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<ra3vat> <jcater> were the linux versions in CVS working for you?
<ra3vat> it require
<ra3vat> to change something in site.py or place sitecustomize module
<ra3vat> it's outside the code
<jcater> ra3vat: are you referring to the PostgreSQL encoding, or the Designer <?xml encoding=????> encoding?
<jcater> I assume the latter?
<derek> wow i have missed a lot :(
<chillywilly> rtfl
<chillywilly> :P
<derek> jcater: me eat pizza donut all day today :()
<ra3vat> PostgresSQL encoding needed to convert data on the fly if database and client on different platform
<ra3vat>  <?xml encoding=????>  need to start form itself
<ra3vat> if labels non-ascii
<Isomer> hrm
<Isomer> you guys know a bout XSLT?
<derek> Isomer: oh yes :)
<derek> mdean: has become quite the master of xslt
<derek> why?
<derek> arghhhhhhhhhhhh
<derek> time for moovee be back later
<derek> sure i will miss more good conversation sigh
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<ra3vat>  <ra3vat> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dimas/samples/forms/helloworld2_ru.gfd
<chillywilly> poor masta
Action: derek is away: moovee
Action: Isomer pondering using XSLT to have the web browser take the .gfd and figure out what to do with it.
<chillywilly> have fun masta
<chillywilly> :)
<derek> Isomer: dont bother
<derek> really
<Isomer> then have the server side just do a few simple things
<derek> within week hopefully code will be in cvs
<Isomer> yeah
<derek> that does web forms via a gfd
<Isomer> I guess
<derek> no 'translation' needed
Action: Isomer just pondering alternative mechanisms
<mdean> XSLT would be good, but I don't think it fits the GFD structure very well
<Isomer> fair enough
<Isomer> also many browser don't yet support it
<Isomer> which is another -'ve
<mdean> ja - but the server could pick up where clients are weak for XSLT
<mdean> problem I saw is that the GFD has no flow
<Maniac> offload the work to clients where possible they have extra cycles
<Isomer> Maniac: *Precisely!*
<Isomer> unfortunately you can't trust clients at all
<mdean> Maniac: duh!  more thwaps for you!
Action: Maniac states the obvious trying to pass off as more intelligent than he really is.....
<mdean> that's why you detect your agent - send it XSLT if it can handle it, otherwise transform on server
<mdean> then everyone is happy
<Isomer> yeah
<Michael> unless the browser translates wrong.. buggy
<mdean> simple transforms shouldn't be a problem tho
<mdean> what worries me is actually using XSLT conditional processing and such
<Michael> dunno. i've had weird results with both css and xsl between different browsers.
<Michael> takes extra testing to make work i guess.
<mdean> ja
<mdean> running multiple browsers at the same time and hitting refresh constantly ;-)
<chillywilly> what if gcd follow W3C XForms spec?
<chillywilly> er, gfd
<mdean> you have an Earl for that?
<chillywilly> URL?
<mdean> yep
<mdean> Earl
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<mdean> rdean!?!  What the...!
<Isomer> whats the XForms spec say?
<rdean> :-)
<Maniac> omg it's a *dean invasion
<chillywilly> aaaah!
<rdean> all your channel are belong to us
<mdean> ha ha ha!
<chillywilly> mdean: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/
<mdean> hmmm - Konqueror didn't like the mozquito demo beneficiary form
<chillywilly> konq sucks
<chillywilly> :P
<mdean> blah!
<chillywilly> galeon forever!
<Michael> i should try galeon again. netscape 6.2 and mozilla use to much memory for my parents computer and neither netscape nor konqueror get the job done.
<mdean> Konqueror would be there if the JavaScript engine would work 100%
<chillywilly> hey Michael when did you get here?
<mdean> it has decent CSS support
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> I misssed your entrance
<chillywilly> yea, but is there any cire for its fugly interface...i think not ;)
<chillywilly> cure
<chillywilly> no cure for the QT disease
<Michael> been watching here a while.. trying to follow anything i can. maybe more caffine would help.
<chillywilly> yes, more is better
<mdean> chillywilly: XForms seems like it would be better suited as an output than a source
<Michael> i don't use javascript.. i always disable it.. so that doesn't effect my browser choice. i just find konquerer weird.. personal preference.
<chillywilly> it is probably more about packagin up the data
<Isomer> could you get XSLT to convert XML to XForms?
<chillywilly> sure
<mdean> chillywilly: yeah - it's separating the UI from the data
<mdean> Isomer: anything is possible ;-)
<chillywilly> mdean: but the UI is pretty agnostic
<chillywilly> ansd that's the point of GNUe Forms
<chillywilly> translating one xml to another is easy
<chillywilly> format
<chillywilly> translating any xml format to anything else is pretty easy
<chillywilly> xml rox
<mdean> Isomer: I even have some XSLT to generate SQL scripts :)
<chillywilly> Isomer: http://www.w3schools.com
<chillywilly> you can learn ti all there
<chillywilly> s/ti/it
<Michael> w3schools is a bit IE oriented at times for me
<mdean> hehe - "a bit" he says ;-)
<chillywilly> yea, but it gets the concepts across
<chillywilly> they are total M$ butt lickers
<mdean> most of the DOM stuff is applicable, as is CSS
<chillywilly> no doubt about it
<Michael> the XSL stuff they had led me through hell trying to figure out why it didn't work right. lol
<chillywilly> I just ignore most of the IE examples
<chillywilly> :P
<mdean> Ora just released an XSLT book not too long ago - it is most excellent
<Michael> ignore the IE examples and you are left with "This is XSL.. and now you know XSL."
<mdean> Michael: hehe
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> well I wasn't aware that those examples were IE specific
<chillywilly> just stupid IE examples because they have their nose up M$'s ass
<mdean> a lot of the stuff translates to Mozilla/NS6 tho - if it deals with DOM or CSS1/2
<mdean> IE5 and up adopted the W3C DOm
<chillywilly> cool
<mdean> cross browser scripting got a whole lot easier at that point
Action: chillywilly has yet to figure out what the DOM is
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> I need to read that one
<mdean> my drag-n-drop editor I wrote for work runs in IE and Mozilla
<chillywilly> an editor in a web browser?
<mdean> could probably port GNUe Designer to the web too ;-)
<mdean> yessir
<Isomer> I was looking at doing that while ago
<chillywilly> JavaScript?
<Isomer> looked far too complicated
<mdean> Isomer: actually pretty simple
<mdean> chillywilly: yup
<chillywilly> or is ti ECMA script now?
<chillywilly> s/ti/it
<mdean> lots of JavaScript - but mostly for managing object data, not the drag/drop stuff
<mdean> that part is small/easy
<chillywilly> where's the code ;)
<mdean> proprietary :-(
<chillywilly> heretic
<chillywilly> infidel
<mdean> yeah - gotta make a living too
<chillywilly> no one expects the GNU inquisition
<Isomer> rofl
<mdean> Kansas City isn't exactly a hotbed of Linux jobs right now
<chillywilly> mdean: I don't accept that bull...but I'm not getting into this
<mdean> chillywilly: I know you don't - but at least I'm here off hours :-P
<chillywilly> they didn't make you sign over rights to each and every bit of code you ever write?!?!  :P
<mdean> nope
<mdean> I signed an NDA - and that's it
<mdean> they don't care about the side projects I do
<mdean> which really amounts to just DCL
<mdean> since I don't touch this stuff at work
<mdean> a company I almost went to a couple years ago would have required me to sign such an agreement tho
<mdean> and I was not at all comfortable with it
<chillywilly> just say no mdean
<mdean> I didn't go :)
<chillywilly> jst say no to prorietary software too
<chillywilly> typing is going into the shitter
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<Isomer> is there any OSS speach recognition software?
<chillywilly> OSS: does not compute
<mdean> I thought there was one such project, but I don't remember the name
<Isomer> ok
<Isomer> fine
<chillywilly> :P
<mdean> IBM might have something too 
<Isomer> is there any GNU speach recognition software
<Isomer> IBM has ViaVoice
<Isomer> which they give away the linux developers kit for Free (beer)
<mdean> ja - but I'm not sure if they ported it
<mdean> ah
<Isomer> I looked at it
<Isomer> and ignored it
<mdean> hehe
<chillywilly> Isomer: :)
Action: Isomer was thinking t'would be nice to have a voice activated mp3 player
<Isomer> and TV remote :)
<chillywilly> damn that is alzy
<chillywilly> lazy even
<Isomer> yeah, I'm in the programming business, it's my job to automate as much as possible
<Isomer> I don't wantto get up to find the remote
<chillywilly> rofl
<ajmitch> heh
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Action: Isomer has been playing with furbies recently
<Isomer> they give a very strong impression of being "intellegent"
<Isomer> even though after you've figured out how they work it's pretty stupid
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<Michael> i wanna make a light saber activated mp3/video plauer for my computer.. using the light saber from my interactive yoda.
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<Mr_You> o-k
<Mr_You> where did that come from?  ;-)
<Mr_You> oh remotes.. heh
<Michael> mp3's, furbies, etc?
<Isomer> heh
<Michael> i think the light saber registers motions and relays via IR what motion was made.. sort of 3d gestures.. single button remote controls :)
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<derek> anyone still awake around here?
<ajmitch> yeah
<chillywilly> yep
Action: ajmitch pokes chillywilly awake
<chillywilly> ouch
<chillywilly> :'(
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<derek> crap the chill is multiplying
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<derek> hmmm my logger still seems to work
<derek> suppose i should clean it up and put on ash
<chillywilly> cool
<chillywilly> get to it
<chillywilly> :P
<derek> http://gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/17Nov2001.html
<derek> is sample output (without cleanup) and only a partial list of ;known; nicks
<chillywilly> okie dokie
<chillywilly> oooooh
<chillywilly> purty
<chillywilly> won't spiders steal those emails?
<derek> probably
<chillywilly> heheh, some of them aren't legitimate though
<derek> as i said without cleanup
<chillywilly> most of them
<chillywilly> why am I green?
<derek> i see lots of things like one being able to tell it whether to 'supress' openproject messages (i.e. the joins, splits, etc)
<derek> um
<derek> i didnt have hex list
<derek> so i picked named things
<derek> red
<derek> blue
<derek> green
<derek> etc
<derek> you are techinically 'lime' iirc
<chillywilly> oooh
<ajmitch> heh
<derek> USERLIST = {
<derek>     "&lt;derek&gt;" : "red",
<derek>     "&lt;jadem&gt;" : "green",
<derek>     "&lt;dneighbo&gt;" : "red",
<derek>     "&lt;jade&gt;" : "green",
<derek>     "&lt;jamest&gt;" : "orange",
<derek>     "&lt;andrewm&gt;" : "purple",
<derek>     "&lt;neilt&gt;" : "blue",
<derek>     "&lt;chillywilly&gt;" : "lime"
<derek>            }
<derek> was the user list
<nickr> lime
<nickr> haha
<chillywilly> k
<derek> i was 'playing'
<chillywilly> yes I am sour
<derek> mind you i wrote this at like 2 am, after the super bowl in a 8' x 8' NYC hotel room the day before LWCE
<derek> so if you are looking for 'logic', save yourself time and stop :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> it is pretty cool
<chillywilly> what do you parse things with?
<derek> it had two purposes that really killed me and two more that i wanted fixed
<derek> 1. was i wanted crap to word wrap :)
<chillywilly> derek: so why don't I see more commits from you?
<derek> 2. i wanted the links to be clickable
<Mr_You> hmm.. anyone installed webware?
<derek> and the secondary things were
<chillywilly> on the gnue commit list
<chillywilly> Mr_You: I believe ajmitch has
<derek> 3. wanted to be able to send messages from the irc logs
<Mr_You> its not clear how you use it
<ajmitch> Mr_You: can i help? ;)
<derek> 4. wanted to categorize things automagically, so we could ;autoproduce; something like KC GNUe :)
<Mr_You> I ran the install script, what do I do after that?
<derek> actually the master plan was combine 3 and 4
<derek> i.e. auto categorize then send it to the email lists :)
<ajmitch> Mr_You: start the appserver, hack your apache config for the mod_* stuff if you use it
<ajmitch> lemme try remember what else
<derek> chillywilly: its python, one of first real programs from scratch i wrote in python
<Mr_You> what is the appservers filename?
<derek> also first time i used regex heavily
<derek> and that part could use some help form a regex stud :)
<ajmitch> Mr_You: usually start appserver from the webkit dir with Monitor.py
<chillywilly> regex is like black magic
<chillywilly> you can do some really cryptic shit with it
<derek> wow, looks like i started categories
<derek> so
<derek> **** is the 'switch' to tell it you are giving it a command
<derek> then you list the command
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<derek> separating options with :
<derek> so
<chillywilly> <derek> crap the chill is multiplying 
<chillywilly> hehe
<derek> ****START:GEAS
<chillywilly> I missed that ione
<derek> will throw the category to GEAS and look fo ran
<derek> ****END:GEAS
<chillywilly> cool
<derek> and catalog all between it seperately
<derek> also starting for
<chillywilly> same url?
<derek> ****EMAIL:chilly@gnue.org
<derek> some stuff
<derek> er
<derek> ****START:EMAIL:chilly@gnue.org
<derek> email him some stuff
<derek> ****END:EMAIL:chilly@gnue.org
<derek> could work perhaps
<chillywilly> that just needs to be built into the irc protocl ;)
Action: derek needs to dig into this again
<chillywilly> protocol
<derek> chillywilly: btw: the idea on the categories i think at first was to create just emails to send
<derek> or generate seperate html files by the categories so say someone wanting just geas info
<derek> woudl just read geas.date.html
<derek> instead of gnue.date.html
<Mr_You> heh, I wonder if they just named my county on SNL
<derek> but now i suppose it would be better to come up with an XML file
<derek> output from this
<chillywilly> mmmmm
<chillywilly> spaghetti
<derek> and then do an XSLT transformation :)
<derek> that is much smarter
<chillywilly> with meat balls
<derek> and builds a nice index and such
<chillywilly> uuuuuuuughghgjhglkjhslkfjghlksjhfglkjhdfg
<derek> later i suppose :)
<derek> i just want to make it tables first
<derek> so its
<Mr_You> hafta check the tape on that.. hehe... funny skit
<derek> <foodog>     mike text....
<derek> <me>        mike text..
<derek> etc
<derek> er columns you know :)
<chillywilly> whaddup foodog!
<chillywilly> ;)
<Mr_You> ImportError: No module named AsyncThreadedAppServer
<chillywilly> ouch
<ajmitch> Mr_You: hmm?
<Mr_You> ok, you got me on track, let me see where I get ;-)
<ajmitch> Mr_You: uhh, where you starting this from?
<ajmitch> the AsyncThreadedAppServer.py file should be in the dir you're using
<Mr_You> brb
<Mr_You> its not there
<ajmitch> hmm
<ajmitch> what dir?
<Mr_You> WebKit/
<ajmitch> oohk
<ajmitch> which version?
<Mr_You> cvs
<ajmitch> ok
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<Mr_You> hehe... "I had grown tired.  I had grown tired of the holligans and shinnanigans.  And even the Flannigans."
<ajmitch> i see, the file exists in a 0.5 tarball, not in current cvs
<ajmitch> hey hey Isomer
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<Mr_You> weird
<Mr_You> I guess I'll try the latest beta real quick
<derek> crap
--- Sun Nov 18 2001