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<Mr_You> anyone around?
<ajmitch> yeah
<Mr_You> umm.. dumb question, how do I get python compiled with curses?
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<ajmitch> umm, i've never compiled python :)
<Mr_You> doh!
<Mr_You> ok
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<Mr_You> hi psu
<psu> hi Mr_You
<psu> are you up early or late?
<ajmitch> hi
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<psu> reinhard is definitely up early
<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<Mr_You> hey does our stuff work with 2.2b2?
<psu> I assume most people keep an eye on slashdot anyway
<psu> but http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/11/15/1943223.shtml
<psu> mentions d/b & XML together
<psu> not really relevant for us,
<psu> as we are using XML as a display format for a relational d/b
<psu> rather than using XML as a d/b per se
<psu> (unless I've got the wrong end of the stick again)
<psu> ...
<psu> bbl
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<Mr_You> are we using an actively developed curses library?
<Mr_You> sigh
<Mr_You> will find out tommorow.. 
Action: Mr_You & bed
<reinhard> hello all
<reinhard> woah getting up and already a fire waiting on the answering machine :((
<reinhard> fixed it so now i can get back to the bedroom and get dressed :)
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<take> Can i make a comment on the GNUe-homepage?
<take> I really miss somewhere high upp on the first page a "what is this" button which goes to a text with some screenshots being able for a PHB to read and sortof understand.
<take> I think a lot of parts of the faq can be used for this rewritten to make the what-is-this-text buzzword compliant and some examples of succesful use.
<take> If there is some interest in this I'm willing to give this a shot.
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<take> back to hacking mode, Ill be back some day...
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<mcb30> reinhard: you here?
<reinhard> barely
<reinhard> but yes :=
<reinhard> :)
<mcb30> is it reasonable to assume that all methods for a particular class that are of a particular type (e.g. glibmodule) will be implemented within the same file?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> not at all imho
<mcb30> ah
<mcb30> are there any reasonable assumptions like that?
<reinhard> because of the thing that derek usually calls "templating"
<reinhard> say we have a class "item"
<reinhard> some of the methods of the class "item" will be defined in the sales module
<reinhard> some in supply chain
<reinhard> and some in the special local car dealer's module
<mcb30> ok.  I'm thinking about dynamic loading and how to determine which methods need to be reloaded when I notice a file has been modified
<mcb30> it would be easy to just scan all methods
<mcb30> but possibly time-consuming
<mcb30> I could maintain a cache of which file provides which method
<mcb30> but this has the potential to get long and complex
<reinhard> can't you query what methods are contained in a file?
<mcb30> what happens if you remove a method from a file :-)
<mcb30> then you can't query the updated file?
<reinhard> i.e. for example for a .so file what external symbols are defined
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> true
<mcb30> I think it might have to be the cache
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<mcb30> The provider list would have one entry for each method,
<mcb30> entry contains information like which implementor to delegate it to (glibmodule, python) and some kind of "source" marker which would describe the file it came from
<mcb30> then when a file is modified, I have to scan through the list and update entries for all the methods that have that file as a provider,
<mcb30> but I also maintain a separate data structure for each "source" file which lists all the entries in the provider list that refer to it?
<mcb30> so I can quickly find all the entries that need updating.
<mcb30> How does this sound?
<mcb30> (apart from long-winded :-)
<reinhard> just a sec 10 phone calls
<mcb30> ok
<reinhard> at the same time :(
<reinhard> ok back
<reinhard> sounds good
<mcb30> unfortunately it would be much easier in an OO language :-(
<mcb30> damn C!
<mcb30> never mind
<reinhard> for those lists you might want to look at glib's GList implementation
<reinhard> we already use it throughout the code actually
<mcb30> I was thinking about using a GHash instead, to make the dispatcher faster
<reinhard> uh oh
<mcb30> what?
<reinhard> ok possible :)
<mcb30> are there known probs with GHash?
<reinhard> yes
<mcb30> oh dear
<mcb30> such as?
<reinhard> there is no easy way to iterate through all elements
<reinhard> i.e. there is no g_hash_first () and g_hash_next ()
<reinhard> like there is for lists
<reinhard> you have to use g_hash_foreach
<mcb30> http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/glib/glib-hash-tables.html#G-HASH-TABLE-FOREACH
<reinhard> we want to use glib 1.2
<reinhard> if possible
<mcb30> didn't see the version number - just foudn it via google
<reinhard> ah yes and it is the foreach
<mcb30> will check that it is available in 1.2
<reinhard> you have to write a function
<reinhard> foreach is available in 1.2
<mcb30> I'm used to using foreach anyway - I'm a Perl guy!
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> with first and next you can have constructs like
<reinhard> l = g_list_foreach (list)
<reinhard> while (l)
<reinhard>   {
<reinhard>     dosoemthing_with(l)
<reinhard>     l = g_list_next (l)
<reinhard>   }
<reinhard> of course first line is
<reinhard> l = g_list_first (list)
<reinhard> not foreach :)
<mcb30> :-)
<mcb30> I'll see how it looks as though it would work out with a GHash
<mcb30> the motivation is speed: doing on average (n/2) string comparisons in order to dispatch one of n methods is not very scalable
<mcb30> and it should make the code simpler where I am only looking for a single entry
<mcb30> phone call
<reinhard> i am not _that_ afraid about performance in this point
<reinhard> i guess no class will have more than 400 methods in average
<reinhard> and the time needed to scan the list of 200 strings in memory
<reinhard> will not be too much compared to just the time needed to reload a single code file from the disk
<reinhard> i found that things running in local memory are never performance critical
<reinhard> most critical are things running over network
<reinhard> second most are things having to read from disk
<mcb30> no, but method dispatch potentially happens a lot more frequently than reloading the file...
<mcb30> (still on phone)
<mcb30> back now
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<reinhard> mcb30: true
<reinhard> mcb30: i leave it up to you :)
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<jcater> howdy
<jamest> hi
<jamest> you're at work early today
<jcater> yip
<jcater> sigh
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<derek> bbl
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<dneighbo> jamest you win your xbox @ TacoBell yet
<dneighbo> hi alexey 
<dneighbo> jamest if not sent you link of another way to win, msn is giving away an xbox a day
<jamest> lol
<jamest> send the link please
<alexey> hi dneighbo
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Action: dneighbo chains him down... poor fellow
<jamest> hey madlocke
<jamest> (and others :)
<dneighbo> jamest can you build a tarball of the the products?
<dneighbo> as i dont have cvs here and was gonna try to get things working on this machine
<dneighbo> actually nevermind i will wait until im home
<dneighbo> just getting forms to usable point will take a bit here :)
<dneighbo> jamest in debian what are you using?
<dneighbo> python 2.1 or python 2.2
<dneighbo> im in process of apt-getting 2.2 and friends
<jamest> 2.1 on debian
<jamest> 2.0 on solaris
<dneighbo> jcater/jamest one of you needs to get all teh deps installed on ash
<dneighbo> so we can configure webware on there
<dneighbo> for online demos
Action: dneighbo is trying 2.2 on debian see if i can get it to work if so maybe i will dig out the passwords for ash and 'upgrade' over there muhahahaha
Action: dneighbo is hoping such idle threats inspire :)
<madlocke> hi...
<dneighbo> can someone tell me how upgrading my version of python is making me isntall gnumeric?
<madlocke> jamest: now connection is cheaper and faster... phew...
<jamest> :)
<madlocke> ajmitch: hi
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<whoopi> Greetings.
<jcater> whoopi: hello
<dneighbo> hello whoopi 
<dneighbo> can we answer any questions for you?
<whoopi> Just dropped in for a chat; see how dev. work was going.
<dneighbo> work is going well hopefully end of tonight or tomorrow we will be putting the bow on a few 0.1.0 version of our tools
<dneighbo> and putting under the xmas tree for early xmas enjoyment
<whoopi> Will look forward to installing it.
<dneighbo> you on windows or linux variant?
<dneighbo> if you dont mind me asking
<whoopi> Linux; I can never Windows to work properly.
<dneighbo> btw: jcater / jamest one thing we have not tested is rpm creation
<dneighbo> whoopi rpm or debian or tar/gz packaging?
<dneighbo> i.e. what distro :)
<whoopi> tar package.
<whoopi> Will is compile clean on arm4vl or will it need x86?
<dneighbo> um dont know
<dneighbo> want to test :)
<dneighbo> if python runs on arm4vl, then should be no problems with designer, common, etc 
<dneighbo> geas should be ok on arm as long as orbit is ok on it
<whoopi> Looks like I'm the official guinny pig.
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> which reminds me, i should get my alpha box back into working updated state
<dneighbo> so we can test alpha processors :)
<dneighbo> sigh darn debian
<dneighbo> i can get python2.2
<dneighbo> but only python2.1 versions of wxPython
Action: dneighbo needs to trout slap the wxPython maintainer :)
<dneighbo> muhahahaha
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<jcater> dneighbo: I think that's because Python2.2 is beta
<jamest> alpha even
<jcater> ooh
<jcater> even better
<jamest> i feel sorry for the python 2.2 people if derek does get it installed
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<jamest> derek: "Um, the ./configure command rooted my box, removed all my files, gave a division by 0 error, and added my home address to a bunch of just mail lists"
<jamest> py2.2 authors: hmmm, works for us
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<jamest> just = junk
<jcater> more like, "you didn't install on a production machine did you?" <in background: dude! you gotta hear this!>
<mdean> didn't he say he was going to upgrade ash?
<jcater>  \msg jamest you did change the root password, right???
<dneighbo> actually i installed 2.2 about 2 months ago or so (day it came out)
<dneighbo> not knowing it was not official
<dneighbo> and has been workign like a champ
<dneighbo> point wsa that the 2.2 packages were in SID
<dneighbo> so why not the wx packages to match it :)
<dneighbo> thats all
<dneighbo> i found it humorous as well that
<dneighbo> 2.1 was in sid as well as 2.2
<dneighbo> you would think if 2.2 was ready for sid
<dneighbo> 2.1 would have moved to woody
<dneighbo>  :)
<ajmitch> morning all
<whoopi> ajmitch> What time zone are you in?
<ajmitch> NZDT
<Mr_You> re
<ajmitch> GMT+1300
<whoopi> ;)
<Mr_You> what curses library is prefered?
<Mr_You> pyncurses development seems dead
<madlocke> ajmitch: good evening from GMT+1 ;)
<Mr_You> hey madlocke
<Mr_You> so what curses library are you guys using?
<ajmitch> hey madlocke :)
<Mr_You> hello?
<ajmitch> madlocke: i'm guessing that for me to use your webware code i need to upgrade python :)
<madlocke> ajmitch: if you are using 1.52 then maybe yes...
<ajmitch> Mr_You: you'll have to ask the forms guys, someone should kick them awake
<Mr_You> I'm going to try GNUe and webware with 2.2b2 is this ok?
<Mr_You> ajmitch: well you'll need to have a curses library in order to use madlockes code ;-)
<madlocke> mr_you: for webware or for what is curses needed?
<Mr_You> GNUe Forms requires it to install
<madlocke> mr_you: ah...
<Mr_You> python 2.2b2 installs a curses library but I dunno how to get GNUe Forms to find it, it just says "read the docs to see how to enable" but the python docs don't seem to indidcate what I need to do 
<Mr_You> in other words, I guess I need a work around or hopefully someone will correct this in the installer.. 
<ajmitch> Mr_You: hmm, gnuef installs for me, but i'm using py 1.5.2
<jcater> Mr_You: it requires at least one UI to be installed
<jcater> wxPython, curses, etc
<Mr_You> yeah I want curses, this is a remote server
<jcater> when we add the webware driver, we will add a check
<Mr_You> how do I force it to find the python curses libary?
<Mr_You> heh libary
<jcater> um, I dunno
<jcater> I don't think our curses support is working at the moment
<Mr_You> umm.. ok well I consider this a show stopper :-(
<Mr_You> as I can't install GNUe Forms on my webserver
<jcater> for what?
[14:43] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jcater> are you trying the webware driver?
<Mr_You> yeah
<madlocke> mr_you: it's only demo, not for real use... !
<jcater> you can comment out the checks in gnuef/setup.py for now
<jcater> hang on, and I'll tell you which lines to comment
<Mr_You> sounds good madlocke I need something to start hacking on ;-)
<Mr_You> ok danke
<madlocke> mr_you: bitte ;)
<ajmitch> madlocke: i'll be doing a bit of stuff with webware over the next few weeks, might even use GNUe and your code at some stage :)
<jcater> at about line 169, you'll see
<jcater>   UIOK = 0
<jcater> change that to UIOK = 1
<jcater> and it should install for you
<Mr_You> I was hoping to get the latest cvs/future 0.1.0 installed and functional with webware and Forms webware driver and make demos/alpha quality forms and then go back to another project
<jcater> sorry.. 0.1.0 will be released before we add the webware driver, just so nothing breaks
<Mr_You> jcater: cool thats convenient
<jcater> as soon as it is released (tonight HOPEFULLY :)
<jcater> then we will add the webware stuff
<Mr_You> jcater: sounds cool
<Mr_You> great
Action: jcater is excited about webware too
<madlocke> jcater: that's good because after the 0.1.0 I want some bigger changes for gnuef... ;)
<jcater> yes, that's the plan :)
<ajmitch> mmm, this sounds like some cool stuff :)
<Mr_You> hmm
<Mr_You> same thing occurs, I did notice it says "OK" for the curses library.. but same type of error "No valid UI drivers are installed on this machine:"
<jcater> argh! well, try commenting out line 207
<jcater>     sys.exit()
<jcater> it will still give you a message, but should continue with the install
<jamest> you need to add UIOK = 1 
<jamest> to the import exception
<jamest> for curses
<jamest>   except ImportError:
<jamest>     print "No"
<jamest>   UIOK=1
<jamest> er
<jamest>     UIOK=1
<jamest> :)
<jamest> however curses is broken
<jcater> well, I think he actually has curses
<jamest> not even close to working
<jamest> ah, then your edit should have worked
<jcater> well, no
<jcater> because if the import succeeds
<jcater> it still sets UIOK = 0
<jcater> because it doesn't work :)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> we need a setup program
<Mr_You> ok thanks fixed it
<Mr_You> where is sys.path located?
<jcater> did you read ra3vat's readme at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dimas/uiwebware.readme ?
<Mr_You> yeah, using that
<jcater> you have to set PYTHONPATH to the base directory for the gnue python packages
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<jcater_> and that gets added to sys.path
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<Mr_You> ok thanks
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<ajmitch> hey ra3vat
<ra3vat> hi all
<ra3vat> ajmitch: hi
<Mr_You> I have the ../gnue/lib/python in my pythonpath but its still looking for gnue.forms hmm
<Mr_You> hi ra3vat
<jcater> Mr_You: did you install using "setup.py devel" or "setup.py install"?
<Mr_You> setup.py install
<ra3vat> hi Mr_You
<Mr_You> they are all there
<Mr_You> in /usr/local/gnue/lib/python
<Mr_You> in /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms
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<Mr_You> echo $PYTHONPATH
<Mr_You>  /usr/local/gnue/lib/python/
<Mr_You> weird
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well, it should be working
<jcater> I haven't tested the webware driver
<jcater> so I don't know if there's something wierd or not
<Mr_You> ahh lemme se
<Mr_You> e
<Mr_You> hm
<Mr_You> could the /usr/bin/env python be part of it? for some reason?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> what has that?
<Mr_You> almost all the webware scripts
<jcater> ah
<jcater> those actually need to be python2.2
<jcater> for you 
<jcater> (didn't you install 2.2?
<jcater> )
<Mr_You> 2.2b2
<jcater> that'd be my guess
<Mr_You> I guess thats not it.. 
<jcater> crap
<jcater> I'm not sure what else to try
<jcater> anyone else here tried it?
<Mr_You> {ra3vat - i've just added /usr/local/gnue/lib/python to PYTHONPATH for
<Mr_You> this}
<jamest> Mr_You: have you installed old copies of gnuef before?
<Mr_You> I dunno heh ;-)
<jamest> old copies put parts of themself in lib/python*/site-packages/gnue
<jamest> which screws things up
<Mr_You> ok lemme check
<Mr_You> no, I don't even have any previous python versions installed
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<chillywilly> anyone know if a non-compete agreement is enforcable?
<jcater> depends on the state
<jcater> in California, not likely
<jcater> in Tennessee, likely
<chillywilly> what about WI
<jcater> dunno
<chillywilly> cause that's where I live
<jcater> depends on if you are a labor-friendly state or a corporate-friendly state
Action: jcater hasn't has to deal w/WI before
<jcater> err, had
<chillywilly> well my business law proff sais that most of them aren't enforcable
<chillywilly> said
<Mr_You> sigh laptop crashed.. need new fan :-((((
<Mr_You> chilly: I would say it is enforcable
<Mr_You> but it depends completely on the company as to whether they would enforce it
<Mr_You> two examples
<whoopi> chillywilly: I think it's not stricly the law as much as raw legal ressources.
<chillywilly> heheh
<Mr_You> local biz in the mtns definitely made known to this one fellow that he can't compete in their area outlined in the noncompete, MCIs non-compete could careless unless you've invented something directly related to their business model
<Mr_You> whoopi: yah
<chillywilly> non-compete agreements suck
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<jcater> chillywilly: only if you signed one
<Mr_You> if you have one you are considering signing, ask if you can edit it and agree on the final versio
<Mr_You> n
<chillywilly> yea, but I don;t really plan on competing in the fire alarm/security/communications business
<Mr_You> so don't worry about it
<chillywilly> well if I veer start my own business I'm not making ppl sign non-compete agreements
<chillywilly> ever
<chillywilly> wouldn't make sense if it is based on Free Software
<chillywilly> anyway
<Mr_You> well it does if it involves services
<chillywilly> I still would not do it
<Mr_You> well you're increasing your risk of possible failure or less growth
<Mr_You> ie. you bring people in and 6 months to a year+ later they are competing and stealing your customers ;-)
<chillywilly> if I can't keep cusotmers on my own merit then what good am I?
<Mr_You> because they are one up on you?
<Mr_You> in other words, your investment in people was a total loss
<whoopi> I think that they are viewed as an additional weapons by lawyers in litigation. But (in some places) legislation prevents people from competing againts their too early.
<whoopi> The big question: Is there priviledged information that they acquire at work that they could not get elsewhere.
<jcater> ***********************************************
[15:35] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jcater> New Windows 9x/2000 prereleases (0.1.0-c) at 
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/prerelease
<jcater> Please test if you have access to a Win machine
<jcater> ***********************************************
[15:36] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo> goodie goodie goodie
<dneighbo> am feelign ill though 
<dneighbo> so cant test
<jamest> jcater: on the notebook support in designer
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> yes?
<Mr_You> whoopi: a client list is priviledged info
<jamest> i get the same page displayed in both windows
<jamest> windows = tabs
<jcater> hmm
<whoopi> My_You: This is stealing company information; not competition. 
<jcater> is this a form you are opening?
<jcater> btw, did you just grab cvs?
<Mr_You> whoopi: thats non-disclosure agreement, not non-compete
<jcater> as I just committed a whole chunk of changes
<jamest> just grabbed cvs first time today
<jamest> and yes, i am opening forms int he samples dir
Action: Mr_You too familiar with NDA.
<jamest> any multi-page forms only display the first page on all the tabs
<jamest> on solaris 8 wxP 2.3
<whoopi> Mr_You: Client list is an asset; NDA is priviledge information. 
<jcater> hmm
<whoopi> I've signed specific documents about not distributing client lists, but that had nothing to do with disclosure.
<Mr_You> whoopi: I know all about NDAs
<whoopi> Mr_You: Perhaps we're a bit offtic. 
<reinhard> checking for PostgreSQL... yes
<reinhard> checking for MySQL... yes
<reinhard> checking whether to enable C method support... yes
<reinhard> checking whether to enable Python method support... yes
<Mr_You> whoopi: I was stating that your priviledged info could be consider part of an NDA
<Mr_You> stealing customer info
<Mr_You> whoopi: why DCC?
<dneighbo> btw: NDA is relevant in free software as well as Non Compete
<Mr_You> I prefer private msg
<dneighbo> in sense that you may have KNOWLEDGE outside the software in which you should not disclose
<dneighbo> for example customer data
<jcater> jamest: um, what forms are you testing?
<dneighbo> company financial position etc etc
<jcater> I just tested track/contact_manager.gfd, contact.gfd, and a home made one
<jcater> can you update cvs again to make sure?
<dneighbo> i would stay away from both personally if i had a choice
<dneighbo> i hear a weakness in Non Compete is they are not binding outside jurisdication created in unless otherwise stated
<dneighbo> in my case i live in maricopa county but am only 10 miles from pima county
<dneighbo> since jusrisdicaiton in non compete in my state are by county
<jamest> updating
<dneighbo> i could incorporate in pima county 10 miles away and still do business here
<dneighbo> if that makes sense
<dneighbo> i.e. the net's boundlessness is ahead of law
<reinhard> any c dudes here?
<jamest> contact_manager.gfd was one of them
<jcater> :)
<reinhard> can somebody explain me when to use
<reinhard> #define MY_COMPILER_SWITCH
<reinhard> ...
<reinhard> #ifdef MY_COMPILER_SWITCH
<reinhard> and when
<dneighbo> reinhard we rean language.convert.programmer(python)
<reinhard> #ifdef MY_COMPILER_SWITCH 1
<dneighbo> on them :)
<jcater> jamest: it's that darn non-linux system you are using
<reinhard> #if MY_COMPILER_SWITCH
<dneighbo> jamest: look at bug reports for 2.3 on wx
<dneighbo> i saw lots of crap on the list about 2.3 having issues with solaris iirc
<jcater> I was joking with him
<dneighbo> jcater: im not
<jcater> dneighbo: I know... we know all to well about wx :)
<jamest> jcater: fixed now
<Mr_You> ummm
<Mr_You> oops
<dneighbo> ah it was your fault that is no fun
<jamest> no idea what was up, but the second cvs update works
<jamest> you don't split commits do you?
<jcater> btw, what do you think of the new page layout editor?
<jcater> no
<jcater> how do you?
<jcater> oh, split commits
<dneighbo> cvs commit file1 file2 file3
<jcater> I thought you said "comments"
<dneighbo> cvs commit file4 file5 file6
<dneighbo> :)
<jcater> I try to
<jcater> but don't always
<jamest> i wondered if I got a between commit copy
<jcater> it's possible
<jamest> new page editor?
<jcater> with the notebook tabs
<dneighbo> \msg jcater he's getting old, he probably just 'thought' he did an update.... the first time
<jamest> i like it better
<jamest> much better
<jcater> good, cause I'm not changing it back
<jcater> :)
<jamest> lol
<dneighbo> sigh is it in the build?
<dneighbo> for win32?
Action: dneighbo wants to see it
<jcater> yes
<jcater> lemme post a new screenshot
<jamest> no don't
<jcater> ok
<jamest> it's your one chance to make him suffer
<jamest> enjoy it for a bit before you post it
<jamest> :)
<jcater> otay
<jamest> dneighbo: you can't get the web version at work?
<jcater> btw, is the scrollbar window grey or white on your solaris install?
<Mr_You> hey guys:
<Mr_You> <radix> Mr_You: python only believes that directories with __init__.py in them
<Mr_You> +are python packages
<Mr_You> lemme keep truckin and get back to yas when I get things moving
<jamest> the window?
<jamest> behind the scrollbar?
<jcater> no
<jcater> the scrolled regio
<jcater> n
<jamest> grey
<jcater> argh!
<jcater> it's not refreshing under GTK correctly
<jamest> http://www.math.ksu.edu/~jamest/scroll.gif
<jamest> is a pick
<jamest> btw: don't tell derek but it has those new notebook tabs on there as well
<jcater> hmm
<jamest> something else funny
<jcater> win98 looks so much nicer
<jamest> the grey behind the page
<Mr_You> umm ignore what I said ;-)
<jamest> stays white every once in a while
<jcater> that's the region I'm referring to
<jcater> it should be white all the time
<jamest> flashes white and stays that way once in a while
<jamest> don't know pattern yet
<jamest> bbias
<jcater> k
<dneighbo> its funny but jcater i agree
<dneighbo> win look much better for designer :(
<jcater> you running it?
<dneighbo> downloading newest version as we speak
<dneighbo> this install just kicks ass
<dneighbo> btw: nice sample form :)
<dneighbo> we need to fix our tabs
<dneighbo> so they go to edge of screens
<Mr_You> they found a "suspicious note" on an empty row on an air sickness bag
<dneighbo> it just looks bad otherwise :)
<Mr_You> AirTran landed at the local airport
<dneighbo> the icons are still pink
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/designer-win98.png
<jcater> dneighbo: no way
<jcater> that looks aweful
<dneighbo> what looks awful?
<dneighbo> the stuff installs and looks good
<dneighbo> id say release it :)
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> after i abuse it some more 
<dneighbo> btw: guess you are right that tabs dont go to edge on other applications
<dneighbo> but the spacing is much tighter
<dneighbo> especially at bottom
<jcater> true
<jcater> yeah, that is an issue :)
<jcater> but not to the edge, tho
<dneighbo> i still personally like tabs to the edge
<dneighbo> but thats me :)
<jamest> i think it'll look alot nicer on *nix once I get the qt driver done
Action: jamest dives for cover 
<jcater> jamest: I wholeheartedly agree
<dneighbo> why dive for cover
<jcater> :)
<mdean> absolutely
<dneighbo> mdean at 3pm my time?
Action: dneighbo checks for vital signs
<mdean> pMdean->put_Vacation(TRUE);
<dneighbo> ah
<Mr_You> whoooooooooooooooo hooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<dneighbo> explains all the commits :)
<Mr_You> got it workin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<jamest> hmmm
<Mr_You> cool cool cool!
<jamest> you do get pink don't you jcater
<jcater> yes
<jcater> see I have proof now :)
<jamest> that's odd, i don't see pink on my screen
<Mr_You> now I can quit and be lazy.. j/k ;-)
<dneighbo> mdean you mind me duplicating the ddl stuff in gnue cvs?
<dneighbo> jcater: i get the pink too
<jcater> I don;t get it under linux tho
<dneighbo> jamest is only guy not getting any pink (get it)
Action: Mr_You bounces.
<mdean> dneighbo: what?  the XSLT?  gofer it!
<dneighbo> yes the XSLT stuff
<dneighbo> basically teh style sheets and python
<dneighbo> mdean will you do copyright assignment to FSF?
<mdean> ja ja - it's GPL ;-)
<mdean> absolutely
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> will send you the forms
<mdean> I'll need them eventually anyway ;-)
<Mr_You> man thats cool.. madlocke rocks
<dneighbo> just i wanted to make the db sample we distribute have a SQL script for each DB we support
<ra3vat> Mr_You: what was the problem?
<dneighbo> and thought it would be easier to use the ddl tool
<Mr_You> ra3vat: hadn't installed gnue-common :-(( hehe
<dneighbo> than to hand write it :)
<mdean> yes - I maintain 5 scripts now - it's a nightmare
<dneighbo> and thought hmmm probably shoudl include this in gnue :)
<mdean> now we just need a designer app for DDL
<dneighbo> as i want to do the 'inserts this way too'
<jamest> can someone post a pic of an html form
<dneighbo> mdean: i had hoped that designer for gnue will be an IDE 
<jamest> ddl?
<dneighbo> i.e. it will do ddl interface
<jamest> we have ddl stuff?
<dneighbo> it will let you design queries
<dneighbo> it will let you edit geas objects
<dneighbo> it will let you push out dia diagrams etc etc
<dneighbo> i.e. the emacs of gnue :)
<mdean> yup yup yup
Action: dneighbo now runs :)
Action: jcater runs
Action: mdean codes
Action: dneighbo looks back to make sure jason isnt armed with sharp objects before he starts to slow down 
<dneighbo> jamest: ddl == data definition langauage
<jamest> i know
<jamest> we have ddl stuff?
<dneighbo> mdean created based on some discussions we had
<jamest> to put in cvs
<jamest> ooooooooo
<dneighbo> so now you do a db create script
<dneighbo> in xml
<dneighbo> and run a python program
<jamest> yes!
<jamest> oh yes!
<dneighbo> and it spits out db native script
<jamest> oh hell yes!
<ajmitch> why does this sounds so good?
<ajmitch> all this neat stuff to play with now
<dneighbo> currently style sheets for oracle, mysql, mssql, postgres i think exist
<mdean> not Oracle
Action: mdean looks @ jcater
Action: jcater hides
<dneighbo> and creating a new one is as simple as copying exisitng style sheet
<jamest> why not make a sql92 compliant one
<mdean> Sybase exists
<dneighbo> and then making a few tweaks
<dneighbo> jamest: why
<jamest> for a try this if all else fails
<dneighbo> thats like saying w3c compliant ones :)
<dneighbo> i.e. pipe dream only :)
<dneighbo> you konw make a sql92 compliant one and it wont work on any of the 'sql92' compliant dbs :)
<mdean> there are no sql92 compliant dbs
<dneighbo> mdean: that was my joke :)
<mdean> I know ;-)
<dneighbo> make a sql92 compliant one that wont run on anything :)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> also
<mdean> everyone had to do their own thing
<dneighbo> but jamest: i see your point, might make one that is sql92 compliant so in theory a bit of minor hacking might make it usable on your db
<jamest> we need a pre-release area in our download section
<jamest> so that people can wonder in and try it
<dneighbo> we need a download section thats not so evil
<dneighbo>  :)
<jcater> we need a new website
<jcater> and a new installer
<dneighbo> but thats a diff discussion
<jcater> and integrator
<jcater> and a working geas
<dneighbo> forget running, jcater pushes jcater's ass out the door :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater enjoyed that
<jamest> what channel am I in again?
<dneighbo> anyone know what it takes to be included in redhat?
<dneighbo> im thinking of trying to push to get dcl and gnue defaulted into it
<dneighbo> as well as debian
<chillywilly> debian is easy
<chillywilly> dunno wbout redhat
<dneighbo> as i assume it takes time for redhat
<mdean> dunno - should be able to get in Mandrake easier than RH I would think
<chillywilly> about
<Mr_You> derek: my guess is they have package maintainers like debian
<dneighbo> so by the time we are through the politics maybe we will be 'ready'
<dneighbo> mdean mandrake as well
<jamest> i think we should wait for 0.3.0 (ui rewrite) for that
<jamest> personally
<jcater> yes
<dneighbo> yes
<jamest> as it'd have more wow factor
<jcater> and then we slashdot ourselves
<dneighbo> BUT i think it will take time
<dneighbo> so thinking if we start knocking on the doors
<chillywilly> jamest: what is planned in the ui rewrite?
<jcater> chillywilly: think of it as "spring cleaning"
<jcater> only in the winter time
<jamest> we address the shortcommings in the current UI
<chillywilly> heheh
<Mr_You> where do I download this windows designer installer?
<chillywilly> like what?
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/prerelease
<Mr_You> (or what was that)
<jamest>   add dynamic positioning, menus, etc, etc
<Mr_You> danke
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> no layout boxes?
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> j/k
<jamest>   add curses, web, wxPython, gtk, qt ui drivers
<jcater> and win32
<jamest>   layout management would be nice
<chillywilly> not easy though
<jamest>   (yes and win32, make it like the db drivers, easy to extend)
<jamest> not easy
<jamest> and IMHO not needed
<jamest> but others like it
<chillywilly> well actually if you jsut did like horizontal and vertical boxes
<chillywilly> that shouldn't be too hard
<jcater> damn
<jcater> then I'd have to redo 
<jcater> Designer's layout editor yet
<jcater> again
<chillywilly> hehe
<jamest> jcater: that's ok, you enjoy it right?
<jamest> right?
<chillywilly> you think that software  ever gets "done"?
<jcater> well
<jamest> um, hello?
<jcater> yeah
<jamest> :)
<jcater> but reports is beggin to give me a beating
<chillywilly> software is always a work in progress
<chillywilly> with various states of usability
<chillywilly> and functionality
<jcater> functionality?
<jcater> our software is supposed to do something?
<chillywilly> I guess so
<chillywilly> some ppl are under this illusion
<ajmitch> heh
<jamest> it used to segfault dneighbo's x session real good
<jamest> but then we broke something i guess
<jcater> sigh
<jamest> maybe ought to list that as a bug
<dneighbo> me often wonders though why spend time supporting ui's we already support or platforms we support
<jcater> ?
<dneighbo> i.e. i think its a good idea to make it easier to do so, but not necessary to do it, let someone come along and do it
<dneighbo> you all said 
<chillywilly> you on crack masta?
<dneighbo> qt, win32 etc
Action: chillywilly takes away the crack pipe
<jamest> dneighbo: it's a great way to stress the design
<dneighbo> wxWindows gives us most of what we need
<jamest> weeds out lots of bugs
<chillywilly> yea
<Mr_You> damn 
<dneighbo> cept html and curses
<jcater> well, it'll be much cleaner feeling/looking with plat-specific stuff and take away dependencies (and therefore bugs)
<chillywilly> that's the ticket ;)
<jamest> and wxpython is slower than hell to init on a 167MHz sun
<dneighbo> sigh
<dneighbo> i agree on all points
<jamest> once she's up she's fine
<Mr_You> this is killer, good work everyone who has contributed
<dneighbo> but its about time 
<jcater> dneighbo: then, think of them as case studies
<dneighbo> redoing work that someone has done to a degree is pointless
<dneighbo> when we dont even have distributable applications :(
<chillywilly> sun belongs in the sky
<Mr_You> jcater: nice job on the installer ;-)
<dneighbo> i see it as a nice thing to do
Action: chillywilly hurls jamest's sun box
<jcater> Mr_You: the installer is jamest's baby :)
<dneighbo> but we have so much more pressing stuff
<jcater> sigh
<Mr_You> now I gotta figure out how to use designer
<dneighbo> i.e.  i think ui rewrite/cleanup is necessary
<Mr_You> should be fun
<Mr_You> SHOULD be ;-) hehe
<dneighbo> BUT layout managers and new UI's i think are not as important as advancing other tools
<dneighbo> integrator, reports, geas etc
<dneighbo> if that makes sense
Action: chillywilly kicks geas
<dneighbo> not a matter of what doing but rather when
<jcater> geeze.. we didn't say it'd be ready tomorrow
<chillywilly> I thought there was a game plan
<jamest> um, didn't anyone tell derek we elected him to do most the new ui features work?
<jamest> that way no one else would be slowed down?
<dneighbo> rofl
<chillywilly> guess not
<jcater> chillywilly: sure
<jcater> we have our TODO roadmaps
<Mr_You> has anyone written a forms tutorial or such yet?
<dneighbo> must go
dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "[BX] dneighbo has no reason... just kidding :)"
<jamest> Mr_You: there is a tech_ref and a user_guide
<jamest> in cvs gnuef/doc
<jamest> other notes are in gnue-common/doc
<jcater> I've started a Designer's Guide to forms; but it's not useful yet
<Mr_You> cool
<Mr_You> jamest: nice work on the installer
<jamest> Mr_You: what are you running
<jamest> Mr_You: jcater was involved with that too :)  (psst, he's a AI you know)
<Mr_You> heh
<Mr_You> well currently, I've just installed the latest prerelease
<Mr_You> and webware and madlockes code
<jamest> cool
<jamest> jcater: btw - you build that last prerelease w/ wxpython 2.2?  it doesn't look right on NT
<jamest> btw - it's my first network install on nt 
<jcater> 2.3.1
<jcater> what does it look like?
<jamest> the screwed up toolbar in gnuef is back
<jamest> i'll got find a winXX victim's pc to test on
Action: jamest is off in search of prey
<Mr_You> jamest: looks fine in XP
<jcater> well, I'm ready to release
<jcater> btw, if anyone finds any bugs, please let me know
<jcater> ... preferably AFTER the release :)
<Mr_You> jamest: might makesure you have latest NT patches *shrug*
Action: chillywilly has a windows box up stairs
<chillywilly> not mine though
<chillywilly> but I can test on it
<chillywilly> Mr_You: you have winblows XP?
<reinhard> night all
reinhard (rm@62.47.44.7) left irc: "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est.  -- Aurelius Augustinus"
<Mr_You> maybe :-(
<chillywilly> why?
<Mr_You> why what?
<chillywilly> SunOS?
<Mr_You> mind getting to the point?  :-P heh
<chillywilly> you non-free weenie
<Mr_You> mankind is a remote sun box
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> why do you have a copy of winblows XP?
<Mr_You> cause its better than Win2K
<chillywilly> what are you running on your box?
<chillywilly> oh gawd
<jamest> ok
<jamest> network installs work fine (as they should have) 
<Mr_You> I have a Debian box, a few FreeBSD, and broken Debian and working WinXp on this laptop
<jamest> and IIRC the 2.3.1 release still had the funny toolbar on windows didn't it
<jcater> yes
<jamest> it's the 2.3.2b2 that looks good (but has the debug dump at close)
<jcater> I can upgrade, but I hate those annoying ending messages
<mdean> Mr_You: what makes XP better than W2K?
<jcater> as on designer, it takes a while to display them all
<jcater> mdean: purdy colors
<Mr_You> mdean: probably added more BSD code 
<Mr_You> ;-)))
<jamest> no need, if we want to got the 2.3.2 I can build at home
<Mr_You> mdean: its not as "clunky"
<mdean> Mr_You: 2k is pretty solid for a workstation
<jamest> one of our instructors here just got an XP laptop
<Mr_You> besides that.. no difference
<jamest> says it still locks up on him once in a while
<mdean> XP is slower than 2K too
ToyMan (~Stuart@c5300-3-ip114.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Mr_You> mdean: its clunky compared to other OSs, XP eliminates that
<Mr_You> mdean: who cares?
<Mr_You> oh slower.. not slower to start..
<jamest> what is the status of the ddl stuff?
<chillywilly> using windows is grounds for immediate trout whipping
<jamest> is it setup.py'able?
<jamest> is it designed as a lib?
<jamest> is it downloadable?
<Mr_You> no, I'd say its faster than XP, but thats just my opinion and my experience... it could be slower network wise, etc, etc.. but for windows poppin up and down its snappy
Action: chillywilly trout slaps Mr_You hard
Action: Mr_You bends over.
<mdean> jamest: it is an XSLT implementation, so you need PySablot installed for it to work
<Mr_You> s/XP/2K
<mdean> jamest: unless the newer Python comes with XSLT capabilities
<mdean> jamest: but, I did two or three style sheets IIRC
<mdean> jamest: 1. Outputs SQL wrapped in XML for each command
<mdean> jamest: 2. Outputs SQL wrapped in XML for the entire script
<mdean> jamest: 3. Outputs SQL in ASCII text
<Mr_You> Jim Leher coming on in a few
<mdean> jamest: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/dcl/dclgw/scripts/install/xml/
<chillywilly> sourceforge sucks
<mdean> jamest: also has a Python Server Page to create a DHTML page viewing the schema
<Mr_You> slashdot sucks for not already putting in a non-slashdotted solution
<Mr_You> they should have a method of sucking/caching a page so it won't be slashdotted
<Mr_You> Formal request for webware/GNUe CMS port: caching remote page content!!! hehe
<Mr_You> maybe I'll write it
<mdean> caching dynamic pages is e-ville
<chillywilly> is that a place?
<chillywilly> e-ville
<Mr_You> what if the only part of the page that is really dynamic is the damn advertisement?
<chillywilly> next to pleasantville
<Mr_You> ;-)
<mdean> Mr_You: that's different ;-)
<mdean> chillywilly: go to it - it's a happy place
<Mr_You> mdean: even so, having a method of creating a cached/"screen shot" of a page is really good idea IMO..
<Mr_You> mdean: you could make it clear that its not the current "version"
<mdean> all you really need to do is cut down on the traffic to the db
<mdean> XML/XSL would be good at that as well
<chillywilly> mdean: you can stay there in e-ville and be  arich bastard, but I'll keep my freedom thank you
<mdean> chillywilly: I'm rich?  wow!
<chillywilly> probably more "rich" than I
<mdean> you're probably more content than I
<Mr_You> mdean: especially considering there are tons of dynamic sites now.. and when a big daddy kills unsuspecting little website, "Good Bye"
<Mr_You> "You are the weakest link!"
<mdean> Mr_You: /. does have an overload mode that limits the number of viewable comments
Action: chillywilly also notes that he hasn't (yet????) "sold out"
<Mr_You> mdean: no, I'm talking about a site that is linked to from /. ... the post/article is pointless because the site with the real story is down the whole time hehe
<mdean> Mr_You: ah - gotcha :)
<Mr_You> so it would be nice, if the poster/code could automagically create a "scren shot"/mirror/cached copy of the current version of the file
<mdean> I like google for that, actually - if I can't reach the original page
<Mr_You> yeah, but it doesn't do dynamic pages ;-)
<mdean> it's my fallback
<Mr_You> or very recent additions
<Mr_You> same here
<Mr_You> when possible
whoopi (~warren@HSE-Montreal-ppp3465877.sympatico.ca) left #gnuenterprise.
<Mr_You> chilly: i'll sell out so you don't have to ;-)) hehe
<Mr_You> j/k
<chillywilly> you already have by running winders on your computer
<chillywilly> :P
<Mr_You> I dunno tho.. 500 million dollars makes selling out sound nice
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> feh
<Mr_You> well I'm running free windows OS, free tera-term
<Mr_You> everything I use was free to me
<Mr_You> not Free tho
<Mr_You> will get to that when my Free Debian gets fixed
<chillywilly> what's wrong with it?
<Mr_You> installed a new kernel image and can't get PCMCIA working
<ra3vat> DB000:     self.grid.ForceRefresh()
<ra3vat> DB000: AttributeError: wxGrid instance has no attribute 'ForceRefresh'
<chillywilly> why not?
<chillywilly> what's wrong with it?
<Mr_You> cw: also GNOME login screen or X acts weird on my laptop
<Mr_You> cw: *shrug* 
<chillywilly> dude what error messages do you get?
<chillywilly> debug it ;)
<Mr_You> gotta figure it out some point, but I'm better spending time on my installer
<ra3vat> jcater: I have wxPython-2.3.0 installed
<Mr_You> CW: for whatever reason they aren't there for that version I'm guessing
<ra3vat> jcater: under GNU/Linux
<Mr_You> and the older kernel images and pcmcia are broke
<Mr_You> cw: if I power on my laptop and run X, it locks up.. if I boot into wincrap and then restart into Linux it works
<chillywilly> Mr_You: you didn't compile your own?
<Mr_You> why would I do that?
<chillywilly> make-kpkg kernel-image
<chillywilly> make-kpkg modules_image
<Mr_You> oh, yeah eventually I will
<chillywilly> then tit will work
<chillywilly> fsck binary kernels
<chillywilly> that's for weenies
<Mr_You> heh, how else would you boot your box without a binary kernel?  ;-)
<chillywilly> er, precompiled I should say
<Mr_You> but the end result is really the same
<chillywilly> you got a TI pcmcia controller?
<Mr_You> but spite that, I'm working on a binary OS distro
<jamest> whoops, gotta run bbl
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<Mr_You> lusers don't want source code ;-)
<chillywilly> you're an admin
<jcater> ra3vat: just committed a fix
<Mr_You> cw: umm.. 
<chillywilly> you need to use the source luke!
<ra3vat> jcater: thanks
<Mr_You> cw: this is for lusers to admin and admins who are use to binary installs like solaris
<chillywilly> Mr_You: making a deb of your kernel is cake
<jcater> gotta run.. bbiab
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<Mr_You> cw: most people don't recompile their entire userland anyways hehe
<Mr_You> cw: yeah sonds good, planning on it
<chillywilly> well dude
<chillywilly> I have an unfinished
<chillywilly> debian kernel howto
<chillywilly> I can send it to you
<Mr_You> send her over
<chillywilly> well it's not "unfinished"
<chillywilly> mor elike 
<chillywilly> "unpolished"
<Mr_You> cool
<Mr_You> 42 taliban escaped death and were captured.. all from pakistan
<Mr_You> so probably majority of those who died at this school were from pakistan
<chillywilly> damn
<chillywilly> what si the command to breal lines in vim?
<chillywilly> break
<chillywilly> nevermind i remember now
<chillywilly> gqq
<Mr_You> some infighting within taliban, possibly top military leaders negotiating surrender
<Mr_You> top taliban leaders
<Mr_You> DoD says not negotiating for freedom, taliban should be detained
Action: Mr_You & owrk
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<jamest> ah
<jamest> a user free environment at last
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> ah you at home now
<chillywilly> :)
<jamest> yip
<jamest> and no one uses gnue so I'm safe here
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> not yet anyway
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> well ncmags does doesn't it?
<chillywilly> ncsmags
<chillywilly> :P
<jamest> those are jcater's users
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<chillywilly> hi neilt
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<neilt> chillywilly:  hello cw
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> isn't that redundant
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<neilt> yes
<neilt> cant rembember what i typed from just seconds ago
<chillywilly> :(
<neilt> guess thats why i do such great code
<neilt> :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> hey
<chillywilly> do you guys think that when GEAS is more usable that you could build a SF like system using web forms and GEAS?
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> of course :)
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<ajmitch> but i don't know :)
<mdean> and it will be dcl ;-)
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> oh yea
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> I should install dcl and play with it
<mdean> dcl is evil - it requires JavaScript
<chillywilly> soon to use psp?
<mdean> that's the plan - to make it a GNUe app
<Mr_You> I like javascript ;-)
Action: Mr_You likes e-ville
<mdean> but I have too many commitments to the PHP version to start on the GNUe stuff
<mdean> Mr_You: ja - there're about 0 other projects using JS in free software
<mdean> at least that are in the same vein as DCL
<Mr_You> there are no optioons
<chillywilly> dcl reminds me of SF
<chillywilly> at leat the interface does
Action: chillywilly is playing with the demo
<chillywilly> least
<mdean> DCL predates SF by at least 1.5 years
<chillywilly> k
<mdean> and I still haven't got everything done - damn solo development!
<chillywilly> does it use phpgw as a base?
<chillywilly> or were you looking at that?
<chillywilly> and now want to switch to GNUe ;)
<chillywilly> phpgw api I mean
<chillywilly> basically dcl is about project management?
<ajmitch> you thinking of using GNUe and webware? 
<ajmitch> or would that be too much of a change? ;)
<chillywilly> that can be used for a lot f cool web stuff
<chillywilly> savannah
<chillywilly> a GNU forum
<chillywilly> (CMS)
<chillywilly> etc.
<chillywilly> but I should hack good ol' GEAS for now and worry about that stuff later
<chillywilly> ;)
<mdean> I don't use phpgw - DCL is phpgw *aware*
<chillywilly> ooooh
<chillywilly> whatever that means
<chillywilly> you can send xml-rcp requests?
<chillywilly> rpc
<mdean> it means that it can tell if it is installed in a phpgw installation
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> ok
<mdean> so it will display itself in the phpgw ui
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> never played with phpgw yet
<mdean> phpgw is good - but I didn't want to depend on their api at all
<mdean> way too volatile
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> is dcl 2-tier then?
<mdean> could be 3 if you move the db off the web server
<Mr_You> thats still 2-tier
<Mr_You> most web apps are 2-tier 
<chillywilly> yea, but that's no fun
<chillywilly> ;P
<Mr_You> you are correct sir
<Mr_You> now get to work on GEAS for n-tier apps ;-)
<chillywilly> I have a lto more stuff to read I think....I could work on a better db abstraction
<chillywilly> dunno if I should fork with methods
<chillywilly> we have a contributer now
<chillywilly> brb
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
<Mr_You> anything with an app server could be 3 tier, depending on the design it could be n-tier
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<Mr_You> one thing about designer windows, some of the window sizes need to be larger
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Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:16:10)
<chillywilly> buuuuurp!
<jcater> 'scuse you
<chillywilly> tnx :P
<chillywilly> gawd
<chillywilly> evolution is 750,000 lines of code
<jamest> that's 750000 times more gnome goodness to grace your pc  
<chillywilly> I don't like evolution
<chillywilly> I use mutt
<chillywilly> all I need to do is read my mail, I don't need the groupware shit
<jcater> "groupware shit"? is that what you'd call the trenches they dig in the Army for the soldiers to, you know?
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> jcater: you are now official to LWCE NY
<derek> all the stuff came in the mail
<jcater> coolness
<jcater> I hope
<jcater> hmm... if I go, I may be there for 10 days
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<jamest> pwd
<chillywilly> jcater: why?
<jcater> I think I'll be there the Wed-Fri for a business meeting, then this will the the next Wed-Fri
<jcater> I may just fly my wife up the few days in between
<jcater> visit the adirondacks or something
<jcater> hmm, or I could venture over to WI and kick some butt
<jcater> j/k
<chillywilly> bring it on!
<chillywilly> been wanting to whoop some redneck ass :P
Action: derek slaps mdean with a smelly old crappie
<ajmitch> heh
<derek> thats for filling up the ole mail box with CVS commits :)
<derek> er wait, thats a good thing
Action: derek undoes the slap
<chillywilly> sign up to my commit list so I cna fill up your mailbox
<chillywilly> plz?
<chillywilly> ;)
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<ajmitch> afternoon Remosi
<Remosi> g'afternoon
<chillywilly> why you got yo nick backwards?
<Remosi> hmm
<Remosi> I duno
<Remosi> I use Isomer/Remosi interchangably
<ajmitch> he's a backwards sorta person ;)
<Remosi> ahh
<Remosi> I'm connected from home as Isomer
<chillywilly> doh
<Remosi> and it's not on any channels
<Remosi> hrm
<Remosi> stupid ADSL
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> jetstart at home?
<Remosi> yeah
<Remosi> Telecom's been playing "games" recently
<Remosi> changing the way routing's handled
<Remosi> so we've been getting performance as low as a 14k4 at times
<Remosi> hows things going?
Action: Remosi hasn't been around much of late
<ajmitch> dunno hwo things are with GNUe, i never pay much attention to them ;)
<Remosi> heh
<chillywilly> we got web forms
<chillywilly> :)
<Remosi> yeah
<Remosi> saw that
<derek> um we got it in blue now, thanks to jamest
<chillywilly> damn skippy
<derek> what about scrappy?
<ajmitch> eh?
<chillywilly> scrappy is ummm, just another project I jave no time for
<chillywilly> ;(
<derek> bbl band practice :)
<Mr_You> what band?
<Mr_You> GNUe Band
<Mr_You> anyone tried Audacity?
<chillywilly> nope
<Remosi> audacity?
<Mr_You> free audio recorder
<Mr_You> audacity.sf.net
<Remosi> nice
<Remosi> quiet in here today
<ajmitch> yep
<Remosi> hrm
<Remosi> the gnome summary articles haven't been updated in ages :/
Action: Remosi needs my weekly information addiction fix.
<Mr_You> hmm I like audacity but there is a clicking noise in the background
<ajmitch> Remosi: uraeus has been dead busy with work, he's hardly even been on irc
<Remosi> fair enough
<ajmitch> he said he's busy up until thursday or so
<ajmitch> anyway, bbl
<Remosi> hmm
<Remosi> Bonobo is a component arch isn't it?
<chillywilly> yes
<Remosi> we should be using Bonobo for our widget components no?
<chillywilly> ummm, hell no
<chillywilly> too many dependencies
<jcater> chillywilly: well said :)
<chillywilly> not portable either
<Remosi> heh :)
<Remosi> but so much more fun :)
<chillywilly> python is nice and portable
<chillywilly> wxWindows is cross platform
<Remosi> true
<Remosi> oh well
Action: Remosi just pondering dropping a Gnumeric object onto a form in designer :)
<Remosi> hmm
<Remosi> or maybe drop the gimp in :)
<jamest> :)
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<chillywilly> Remosi: you are buts
<chillywilly> nuts
<chillywilly> bah
<Remosi> yeah
<Remosi> I know
<Remosi> it's easier to be annoying when you're not the one developing it :)
<chillywilly> well I am not the one mucking wiht forms but I stilll don't think bonobo would be a good fit
<Remosi> heh
<Remosi> it would be a little late to do it now I think
Action: Remosi is more interested so that I know for the future
<Remosi> eg, I'd like to write a gnome program at some point 
<Remosi> that lets you build pipe lines
<chillywilly> our ui is al xml defined
<chillywilly> s/al/all
<Remosi> yeah
<Remosi> but you can serialise configuration to XML 
<chillywilly> use GEAS then w/ your own Gnome GUI
<Remosi> no matter how it's implemented internally
<Remosi> hmm
<chillywilly> you could write a Gnome ui driver
<chillywilly> with pygnome
Action: Remosi thinks that cw doesn't understand what I mean
<Remosi> chillywilly: I want to write a new program, nothing to do with gnue, but I'm trying to find out why gnue and other applications have made the decisions they have so I would be better informed
<Remosi> :)
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<jamest> it's the atmospheric crack levels in each developers region
<chillywilly> forms is th eway it is for portability
<Remosi> yeah
<chillywilly> that too ;)
Action: Remosi is thinking of writing a nice gui program for people to "draw" pipes, eg: data source(file) ---> filter(grep) --> filter(sort) --> filter(cut) --> filter(uniq) --> datasink(less)
<Remosi> let the windows people discover some of the flexibility of unix :)
<jcater> ah, but you assume they want the flexibility
<Remosi> true
<Remosi> but it would be a nice simple project
<Remosi> that would be quite nifty imho :)
<jcater> :)
<Remosi> would also be a good first step for some of the people that have been brought up in gui's to learn what the command lines all about
<ajmitch> Remosi: take a look at gstreamer
<Remosi> I probably should
<ajmitch> it does what you want with multimedia filters/plugins
<Remosi> at the moment I'm the proud owner of a PPro 150, and I use a NCD 19r as a Xterminal
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> i need more ram...
<Remosi> so I tend to just use lots of xterms
<Remosi> later this week I'm getting a new box
<ajmitch> how new?
<Remosi> so I'm planning on playing with a lot more of this stuff
<Remosi> brand new?
<Remosi> It's all sitting in the lounge at home
<Remosi> except for the motherboard
<Remosi> (argh!)
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> i wouldn't mind a brand new system
<Remosi> going from a PPro 150, to a Athlon 1600+
<Remosi> over 10x the speed (if you believe AMD)
<ajmitch> pretty good
<Remosi> hmm
<ajmitch> i'm still stuck on my k6-2
<ajmitch> might be able to get a new system by the time uni starts next year
<Remosi> psu: One thing I'd like for KC, is a cookie to tell me when one of the KC's is "new", or perhaps having the Last Modified date on them listed on the front page :)
<chillywilly> IBM eServers runnin Linux
<chillywilly> They can save you a bundle
Action: chillywilly just  saw that commercial
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<Remosi> which ones are the eSeries
<Remosi> xSeries is intel
<Remosi> zSeries is the S/390's IIRC?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<jamest> and do we want to include them in the .exe's and tarballs
<jamest> er
<jamest> which doc formats do we want to distribute was the first part of that
<jcater> ps, txt, pdf :)
<derek> im bordering on txt in or ps in distro
<derek> but i would rather have a LINK back to the online docs so always current :)
Action: jamest smaks master
<jamest> we're not setup for that!
<jamest> :)
Action: derek is back and now knows 3 more chords weee hoo
<derek> only two chords short of a song i like :)
<jamest> tripwires, noose, and ?
<derek> E-Minor, D and G actually
<jamest> you get that intro form done?
<derek> and to someone who asked, never used audacity, but use gstreamer regularly and looking to start home studio based on it
<derek> and some other tools
<derek> jamest: someone else did it
<derek> the intro form
<jamest> huh?
<derek> so no need for me too
<jamest> you're not talking about jcater's are you?
<chillywilly> derek: guitar?
<derek> yip to both chillywilly and jamest :)
<derek> chillywilly: finally gave in and learning to play the guitar
Action: chillywilly has been playing guitar during church services for the least 2 months
<chillywilly> last
<derek> seeing how now im kind of moving from computer guy to sound guy to producer
<derek> might as well learn to play :)
<jamest> argh!
<derek> jamest: it is cutting into gnue time, but you ahve taekwando so i needed an equivalent :)
<jamest> that's not why I'm arghing
Action: jamest found a designer bug
<derek> jcater: dont even think about it, you're not aloud to have a life
<derek> only one
<jamest> in mouse support
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> jamest did the mouse support
<jcater> :)
<derek> give me a minute maybe i can find enough reports to keep jcater busy through the holidays
<derek> jcater: dont worry im not biased i can find bugs for him too
<derek> im a team player, i will spread the bugs around for all to enjoy
<jamest> sigh
<derek> how goes it?
<jamest> i hate to do this
<derek> 'im an equal opportunity bug finder'
<jamest> but i can't play anymore
<jamest> i'll be back tomorrow
<derek> ask your mom if you can spend the night
<jamest> :(
<derek> that way you wont have to go in for dinner ;)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> l8r
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<chillywilly> I love C++
<derek> jcater if one likes python better than the C's
<derek> shoudl they call C++ C--
<derek> ?
<jcater> lol
<jcater> there's a post about reports on our home page... will post to gnue-discuss and gnue-reports tomorrow
<jcater> nite all
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<chillywilly> what's with everyone going to bed eh?
<chillywilly> we can't be having that
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<chillywilly> derek: C++ actually has protection mechanisms
<chillywilly> in fact I can write python packages in C++, but you can't go the other way around
<chillywilly> so there :P
<chillywilly> derek: I can't help it I was fed a steady diet of C++
<chillywilly> my four+ years in school
<Mr_You> you used one language these days, you used them all ;-)
<ajmitch> poor chillywilly
<ajmitch> what's a good IMAP server in sid?
<Mr_You> I use uw-imap.. there is cyrus I think its called also
<Mr_You> uw-imap is plug-n-play
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> i've heard bad thinga about uw code :)
<derek> sid needs ai
<derek> so you can say
<derek> apt-get install good_imap_server
<ajmitch> hehe
<derek> and it will used trust based metrics system to get you one :)
<Mr_You> yeah I think in the past it had some security issues
<chillywilly> ajmitch: why am I a poor chillywilly?
<chillywilly> ajmitch: you ever do C++?
<chillywilly> ajmitch: not much different from Java except memory manageent and templates
<chillywilly> and it runs faster
<chillywilly> :P
<ajmitch> k
<ajmitch> hmm, now to use imap
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Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> IIIIIII'mm baaaaaaaaaacccccckkkk
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> you all suck
Action: chillywilly trout slaps al #gnuenterprise flunkies
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: ajmitch uses /ignore liberally in all trout-slapping fools
Action: chillywilly watches the fish guts fky everywhere
<chillywilly> s/fky/fly
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--- Tue Nov 20 2001