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<Mr_You> lo?
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<nickr> ahoy
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<CyrilB> Hello
<CyrilB> Several images on the gnuenterprise.org website seems to be made with non-free Adobe softwares, I hope I'm wrong: it is quite shocking. Does anybody now more on the subject ?
<CyrilB> lynx -source http://www.gnuenterprise.org/modules/NS-My_eGallery/gallery/GNUe/GNUePkgArchitecture.png | strings | head
<derek> CyrilB: ????
<derek> bye bye
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<CyrilB> We should avoid using non-free software at all cost, am I wrong ?
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<CyrilB> Anyone awake in here ?
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<psu> hi jbailey
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<reinhard> CyrilB: our main goal is to produce good free software
<reinhard> we accept contributions without regarding what tools were used to do the work
<reinhard> especially we accept documentation in nearly any form we can get because we are desperate for documentation
<reinhard> just like any other gnu project
<reinhard> just as long as the format itself isn't proprietary, and it can be viewed without proprietary programs
<reinhard> anything is ok for us
<reinhard> at least that is my understanding
<Maniac> reinhard: good point of view
<reinhard> but if you want to redo those pictures in dia (or whatever) we will _gladly_ take it
<reinhard> the contributor was not familiar with dia at all and felt that he would be more productive when he used his adobe
<reinhard> which he is used to because he used it before
<reinhard> and we were ok with that
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<reinhard> well i think "contributor" is a bit of an understatement for neilt
<reinhard> please s/contributor/core team member/ :)
<CyrilB> I understand your point of view but if you accept contributions that can be viewed with free softwares, you also have to be able to modify the contributions.
<CyrilB> What if we need to add a component to this graphic ?
<CyrilB> Even ASCII art graphic would be better.
<reinhard> CyrilB: isn't png viewable with free software?
<CyrilB> reinhard: png is viewable with free software, you are right.
<CyrilB> You can consider this PNG as a binary distrubution of the contrib, not the source code.
<CyrilB> We NEED to be able to modify the code.
<reinhard> so we need someone that can do the graphic in dia?
<CyrilB> And we can't modify adobe files with free softwares.
<reinhard> so we need someone that can do the graphic in dia?
<CyrilB> We need people do be able to use free softwares.
<CyrilB> And produce free documents.
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> you know someone who would want to do this graphic
<reinhard> as well as maintain it for adding new modules etc over the next few years?
<reinhard> i think we have to seek such a person
<reinhard> till we found it i think we can live with what we have now as an intermediate solution
<CyrilB> If this solution is considered as an intermediate solution, it is ok for me.
<reinhard> good
<reinhard> any other comments on gnue?
<reinhard> iirc i saw you a few times in #fsfeurope
<reinhard> but never here on #gnuenterprise?
<CyrilB> This is the first time for me in #gnuenterprise.
<CyrilB> Did the author of this graphic understood that this file has to be freed ?
<CyrilB> If think that if he is able to produce this kind of graphics with non-free softwares, he can easily do the same with free softwares.
<reinhard> from what i know about the author i think he is aware of the issue
<reinhard> but he works on mac mostly and afaik not so much free software is available for mac
<CyrilB> This discussion is interresting and I have to talk much with you later but I have to go outside now.
<CyrilB> See you later.
Action: CyrilB is away: afk
<reinhard> l8r CyrilB
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<reinhard> hello neilt
<reinhard> i just had a discussion about the graphics you did for the homepage
<reinhard> i hope what i said is ok for you
<neilt> hello
Action: neilt goes to lok at log
<neilt> reinhard: it would be nice of we had free software that would do nice diagrams
<neilt> reinhard: it does not exist
<reinhard> IIRC i have never made such a diagram in my entire life
<reinhard> neither with proprietary nor with free software :)
<reinhard> so i can't tell but i can imagine very well you're right :)
<neilt> you do know that my graphics are the most viewed screenshots on the web site :)
<neilt> and it was not me sitting here hitting the reload button
<neilt> :)
<reinhard> lol
<neilt> i think i missed the point
<neilt> what is the problem with the graphics
<reinhard> his poit was that only you have the "source" and only you can change the graphic
<reinhard> if i understand him correctly
<reinhard> as you are probably the only one among us that has this adobe software
<neilt> any program that reads png which is a standard format can edit the graphics
<neilt> if you can suggest another format, derek said this was the preferred for graphics, then I will convert to a better format
<reinhard> i think his point is that usually you create such a graphic with a vector drawing too
<reinhard> tool
<reinhard> however this is somewhat "silent post"
<neilt> png is a vector format graphic, so all vector information is in the version on the web
<reinhard> or how you call that game
<reinhard> it is?
<reinhard> i thought png is a pixle graphic format
<reinhard> but i can be wrong i'm not sure at all
<neilt> portable network graphic
<neilt> http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/
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<Maniac> a PNG image saved in one app is readable in any other PNG-supporting application
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<reinhard> from what i can read on that page png has no vector information stored
<reinhard> but is rather comparable to gif, jpeg etc.
<neilt> ok, you might be right
<neilt> i thought it was a vector format
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> so actually a good thing that CyrilB brought that up
<neilt> but gimp and gnome both edit png files
<reinhard> sure gimp is a pixle drawing tool
<reinhard> not a vector drawing tool
<reinhard> gimp is like photoshop or so
<reinhard> and i'm sure you wouldn't want to edit this graphic in photoshop ;)
<neilt> http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/pngaped.html is a list of applications that can edit png files
<neilt> i hope not
<neilt> what would be a vector format we should use?
<reinhard> i can't tell
<reinhard> i know zero about graphics at all
<reinhard> neither proprietary nor free
<reinhard> you know i don't deal with things i can't view in vi ;)
<reinhard> CyrilB should be back in some time, maybe he can make a proposal
<reinhard> off for a bit
<reinhard> bbl
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<neilt> i'll probably switch the graphics to svg
<neilt> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/SVG-Implementations#svgedit
<neilt> http://sodipodi.sourceforge.net/ is the editor from gnome
<neilt> i just need someone to let me know if http://sodipodi.sourceforge.net/ actually works?
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<neilt> also http://www.levien.com/svg/ will edit svg
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<neilt> interesting article is at http://xml.com/pub/a/2001/11/21/svgtools.html
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<chillywilly> sodipodi works
Action: chillywilly is away: I'm busy
<nickr> sodipodi works but it needs lots of work, its not all that pleasent to use
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Action: CyrilB is back (gone 00:00:01)
<CyrilB> I'm back.
<CyrilB> <-- reinhard
<reinhard> wb
<reinhard> please read the logs
<reinhard> the author of the drawings was here meanwhile
<CyrilB> I've read the logs.
<CyrilB> Did the author left ?
<CyrilB> (yes)
<CyrilB> 2 hours ago
<reinhard> yes he left
<reinhard> but i think he got your point
<CyrilB> The point is not vector drawing or pixel drawing, as you say I don't deal with non ascii files.
<CyrilB> The point is free software VS non-free software.
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<reinhard> oh
<CyrilB> neilt: welcome back.
<reinhard> neilt: you have a watchdog or something like that?
<neilt> yep
<neilt> :)
<CyrilB> <neilt> reinhard: it would be nice of we had free software that would do nice diagrams (...) it does not exist
<neilt> CyrilB:  what do you suggest
<CyrilB> neilt: friends of mine are using dia and xfig for this kind of graphics.
<neilt> dia sucks
<reinhard> i can second that
<neilt> what is xfig
<reinhard> dia can't even display the same font on screen as it does when printing out
<CyrilB> neilt: dia suxx less than adobe non-free softwares
<CyrilB> neilt: but dia sucks, you are right
<neilt> CyrilB:  i am sorry, but i am not a biggot about software
<CyrilB> http://freshmeat.net/projects/xfig/
<neilt> my time is valuable
<neilt> anything that wasts my time is not good, free or not
<CyrilB> What is 'biggot' ?
<neilt> biased
<CyrilB> neilt: I don't agree at all, we should use free software at all costs.
<reinhard> CyrilB: no i don't agree here
<reinhard> we should develop good free software at all costs
<CyrilB> reinhard: using non-free software _do not_ 'develop good free software'.
<reinhard> it cn
<reinhard> can
<CyrilB> and promoting them is really a shame.
<CyrilB> reinhard: not in this case.
Action: neilt does [dhcp64-134-54-175:~] ntiffin% fink install xfig
<neilt> installing now
<reinhard> i don't see that this is promoting
<reinhard> a "normal user" doesn't see where this png comes from
<reinhard> afaik
<CyrilB> reinhard: neilt just said Adobe non-free software make him avoid loosing time.
<CyrilB> reinhard: and free software DO make him loose time
<neilt> CyrilB: i agree to goal GNUe, that is to use free software for stuff in cvs
Action: CyrilB is shocked
<neilt> so if there is a free software alternative, i will support that
<CyrilB> neilt: I've used xfig a couple of time, I can help you.
<neilt> i did not know xfig existed
<neilt> i am installing now
<neilt> i'll let you kow
<neilt> know how it works
<neilt> otoh i see no reason to avoid non-free software either
<neilt> if this is really a freedom thing then we should be free to use whatever we want
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<ajmitch> hi psu
<reinhard> neilt: i agree
<reinhard> neilt: as long as we don't take away freedom from others
<reinhard> for example
<neilt> in you case you are saying its not about freedom i guess, its about using what the free software movement tells you to use
<neilt> that is just another form of bias
<psu> hi aj
<reinhard> i think it's ok if i use vi, emacs or even windows notepad to write my source code
<ajmitch> psu: seems you've walked into a free vs non-free debate again :)
<reinhard> but if i used winword and stored as .doc i would take away freedom from those wanting to read the text
<neilt> again
<neilt> only because i am being told that using non-free software is bad :(
<neilt> i wish we could just leave the opinions about free vs non-free out
<reinhard> the main point is that we want to achieve something
<reinhard> a very ambitious goal actually in this project
<reinhard> and everyone tries is best to reach that goal
<reinhard> his best
<reinhard> and we make compromises if it helps the overall goal
<reinhard> anyway
<reinhard> gotta get me some sleep
<reinhard> night all
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<neilt> reinhard:  later
<neilt> CyrilB:  ok i installed xfig
<neilt> it does not show up in gnome
<neilt> CyrilB: any ideas where it went
<CyrilB> neilt: what do you mean by 'not show up in gnome' ?
<CyrilB> Does it has to 'appear' magically somewhere ?
<neilt> yes
<neilt> i found it
<neilt> it looks like my old mac 128 circa 1986
<mdean> hehe
<CyrilB> neilt: the interface is ugly but useful.
<neilt> CyrilB: sorry but i have to suffer through this, because you think its better why?
<neilt> CyrilB: what do you do professionally?
<mdean> dia is much more useful than xfig for these types of diagrams
<neilt> mdean: does dia do color
<neilt> ?
<mdean> yup
<nickr> definitely
<mdean> I was just messing around with it - converting your diagram
<mdean> it can definitely do it
<CyrilB> neilt: you are compromising our freedom by using non-free software: we can't modify and/or redistribute the source vector file.
<neilt> so we should change to *.xfig because its such a popular format?
<CyrilB> neilt: you don't need colors
<neilt> CyrilB: thats pure crap
<CyrilB> neilt: not popular but FREE
<neilt> CyrilB: what do you do professionally?
<nickr> dia outputs a free format, which is XML
<CyrilB> neilt: sysadmin is a european isp
<mdean> dia exports png, eps and other popular formats too ;-)
<nickr> which makxes it exceptionally useful for converting dia diagrams into things like SQL 
<neilt> CyrilB:  cool, thanks
<CyrilB> neilt: sysadmin iN a european isp
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<neilt> nickr: i would use dia, as soon as someone provides a way to convert dia diagrams into our gcd format
<neilt> so we dont have to maintain 2 sources
<nickr> neilt: are you doing data modeling with it?
<neilt> dia, not uet
<nickr> neilt: it would be very easy to do that.
<neilt> yet
<neilt> i use visio
<neilt> hehe
<nickr> I have a very simple sheet that converts dia UML in sql.
<nickr> into
<neilt> nickr: i would rather use dia than hand write gcd's
<nickr> the same concept could convert it to any format needed
<mdean> nickr: yuppers
<neilt> but no-one has the time to figure out how to make dia diagrams because gcd files
<nickr> gcd is the XML DL right?
<neilt> nope
<nickr> or s it the IDL?
<neilt> gcd is the geas server object definitions
<neilt> not xml
<nickr> its the IDL then
<neilt> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/GNUeModuleGuide/main/x369.html
<neilt> is the definition of gcd format
<neilt> i did not define the gcd format
<CyrilB> I have to leave you now.
<neilt> CyrilB: later
<nickr> it actually looks like a weird cross between SQL and IDL
<neilt> its wierd all right
<neilt> but thats what derek wanted back 1 1/2 years ago
<nickr> I don't see what you gain by drawing boxes and typing all this into them
<CyrilB> neilt: excuse me if I said stupid things.
<neilt> CyrilB: no problem, i dont takes things badly
<CyrilB> neilt: do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions with xfig: cyb@gnu.org
<neilt> i just feel free to express myself 
<neilt> as everyone else should
<neilt> CyrilB:  thank you
<neilt> nickr: gcd is an object definition
<neilt> nickr: the gcd files themselves dont show relations
<mdean> nickr: does that stylesheet run from a UML definition?
<nickr> yea
<nickr> its very simplistic, a proof of concept
<neilt> nickr: i would assume that if we used dia that the relations would be more graphic
<mdean> derek and I have talked about something along these lines for the DDL too
<mdean> the need for an editor (or "designer" ;-)
<nickr> i think it'd be better suited if an object set specifically for medelling GCD was built for dia
<mdean> sounds like a lot of these things could be leveraged from one source
<neilt> nickr: the original idea was to use UML for modeling
<neilt> then build the gcd from the UML 
<neilt> i dont know of that makes sense
<neilt> or not
<mdean> neilt: the UML editor in Dia doesn't appear to have hardcoded types - or is there another reason for a GCD set?
<neilt> mdean: not sure i understand what you are asking?
<psu> bbl
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<nickr> dia lets you type anything you want into the various areas of the object
<mdean> why would you like a Dia set specifically for GCD?
<nickr> so you can model anything that is vaguely objecty
<nickr> but you could be better served if you made objects more taylored to gcd, like having areas for those little sql things and such
<mdean> nickr: true - I don't see a suitable place for those
<neilt> we dont have any sql things in gcd format
<neilt> we have object references and object lists
<nickr> you could trick the XSLT sheet into putting them in the right spot, its not a huge issue, but allowing direct support for such things would be a little better
<nickr> I mean the order by foo
<nickr> things
<nickr> those aren't properties or methods
<neilt> nickr: good point, i forgot about those
<neilt> really they should be changed to properties
<neilt> and we should lose the sql'ness
<mdean> could be a property in a base object as well
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<nickr> tnhat would work
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<ajmitch> hi Isomer
<Isomer> mornin
<ajmitch> hmm quiet here
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<ajmitch> hi derek
<derek> hi
<ajmitch> derek: whatsup with this dotgnu/gnue/dcl/gnucomm/phpgw meeting?
<derek> just checking in for a minute fore i run off
<derek> what do you mean whats up with it?
<derek> as far as i know gnue/dcl/gnucomm and cto of freedevelopers committed to the date
<derek> fsf and phpgw (the two asking for the meeting) have not (as well as dotgnu)
<ajmitch> as in when, who can join, etc. i'm talking to a dotgnu person who doesn't know much about it & is trying to find out info
<derek> well dotgnu would be represented in part at least by david sugar
<ajmitch> ok
<derek> its tentative for 9PM EST tomorrow (monday)
<ajmitch> i've been talking to myrddian (enzo adrian-reyes)
<ajmitch> k
<derek> it will be only the core members (at this point)
<derek> for at least an hour of the discussion
<ajmitch> righto, cos he is a dotgnu core member
<derek> though we will try to make it so the other people can listen in
<ajmitch> who is doing design docs for SEE
<derek> ajmitch : when i say 'core group' i really mean about the maintainers at thats it
<ajmitch> ok
<derek> i.e. like 1 or 2 people from each camp
<derek> though thats up to the projects maintainer
<ajmitch> sure
<derek> after the hour period
<derek> then we will probalby open it to a larger audience
<derek> if it goes well, we might try to make them regular
<derek> i have to run
<ajmitch> k
<derek> will be back in a bit
<derek> does the dotgnu fellow irc often
<derek> and will he be around later?
<derek> i surely dont mind talking about our projects
<derek> outside of that meeting
<ajmitch> yeah, he's on irc a bit
<derek> the meeeting was just a way for us all to meet 
<derek> and kind of see where we are at and where we overlap
<ajmitch> ok
<derek> etc 
<derek> bbl
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<chillywilly> ello?
Action: chillywilly swings his trout wildly hoping to connect with someone
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<chillywilly> hey Rafterman
<Rafterman> afternoon all
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<Mr_You> hi
<chillywilly> howdy
--- Mon Nov 26 2001