ajmitch (me@p58-max6.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ajmitch (~me@p40-max5.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. anyone home? masta? Action: chillywilly wants to knwo what masta thinks of B. Kuhn's and RMS's latest essay at: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.html nice comment here: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-11-21-024-20-NW-SW-0000 anyone slept on a futon style bed? not couch bed similar style tho huh? you have? you like it? nah, sister has one iirc ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.204) left irc: "[x]chat" i think she likes it, not sure tho, haven't really talked to her much lately ;) my freind used to have one I like the idea of one, with maybe one of those air matteresses or something heh strangely enough, I've been sleeping with my bed on the floor for years.. partly cause I always had a cheap bed cheap metal frame deal.. so I just ditched them.. man I love PBS oh man, I like Cheaters better tho heh heh where they film and bust people cheating.. damn.. this one guys own brother and his wife cheatin on him you need to do something with your life Mr_You :P j/k that's an inside joke my buddy was like saying to me one day (because I was just lazing around), dude, why don't you do something with you life it was funny so now every other time I see him I say man why don't you do something with your life ans then we havea agood laugh and I am babbling ah well yeah I could use a job Action: chillywilly ha sjust compiled galeon 1.1 from cvs has just it is nice how in the world did they go form 0.12.x to 1.0? from reinhard (~rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. I guess 0.12 is higher than 0.9 duh hey reinhard hey chilly Rafterman (tim@lister.sesgroup.net) left irc: "[x]chat" ok, time for bed g'night all chillywilly (danielb@d58.as21.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Sacha_ (sacha@203.190.196.208) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds Sacha_ (~sacha@203.190.196.208) joined #gnuenterprise. Sacha_ (sacha@203.190.196.208) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ajmitch (me@p40-max5.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ajmitch (~me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. bigbrother joined #gnuenterprise. CyrilB (~cyb@AToulouse-201-1-4-119.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #gnuenterprise. Hello. hi CyrilB Action: reinhard is just in the process of cooking lunch and doing hotline at the same time so you might face slow responses from me :) Action: CyrilB has just woke up so u might face slow responses from him :) lol ra3vat (~ds@195.239.66.32) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.32) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds CyrilB (cyb@AToulouse-201-1-4-119.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Remote closed the connection CyrilB (~cyb@AToulouse-201-1-4-119.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (alex@techkran.vladimir.ru) left irc: "[x]chat" dyfet (~dyfet@65.204.5.82) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: CyrilB is away: afk CyrilB: re your earlier complaint about images being made in prop tools a. we use a modified phpNuke (gpl) so the images came from that, i.e. i would beat them up about it :) b. i dont care what tools another developer uses as long as with no fuss i can use free tools for example if i write something in C++ it doesnt matter to me if someone else wants to use Borland CBuilder as long as prop extensions and files are not used to prevent me from using gcc et c same goes for images, if someone wishes to use illustrator that is fine by me as long as i can manipulate the file in gimp (i.e. a large portion of gnue development has taken place on windows, we are not about to throw out that contribution because the developers of those pieces choose something that is not free) ToyMan (stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds derek: I understand what you mean. derek: but the fact is (as I've already written here) that the PNG are not the sources. yes, agree, but i can edit the png if need be derek: the author used a non-free vector drawing tool that produce bitmap images. IF it were gnue i woudl have a problem BUT You can rename or move the nodes. its phpNuke and frankly i dont have the energy to bug them about it :) (easily) derek: CyrilB is talking about the graphics that neilt posted on the screenshots site just fyi As if you said you could change the code of a binary executable: yes you can but it's not easy. ah sorry jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. slap neilt then :) but we resolved anyway bbl huh? howdy all ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (~ds@195.239.66.14) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: CyrilB is away: boulangerie howdy did you have a good holiday? um, yip dyfet (dyfet@65.204.5.82) left irc: "Client Exiting" so, no nightmares about releasing stuff? dunno i didn't touch pc all weekend no, I mean literal nightmares :) i dreamt i got shot Action: jcater didn't touch a computer from Wednesday night up until now it was nice didn't really bother me though so it wasn't a nightmare :) except for the withrawal pains my weekend was calculus, cattle, and xbox odd combination that in that order? cattle,calculus,xbox in that order fun got to drive me a tractor I drove for a total of 32 hours (round trip :) tractor, eh? i feel more in touch with the farmland people now i guess :) you getting up to speed with the needs of the GNUe Farmland Management module? nothing like hauling bull dung about the farm in a huge scoop to get in touch with land and its animals :) how was your holiday? um spent a good deal of it in traffic but other than that, it was good no offense, but it was nice to get away from you guys for a weekend :) well, not you personally btw, the tools have been branched designer-0-1-0-patches, gnuef-0-1-0-patches, and gnue-common-0-1-0-patches (what a mouthful) :) i assume that means we had patches then I committed some designer stuff and had some forms stuff to do but haven't finished/committed/thought about that yet ah ok Action: CyrilB is back (gone 00:14:40) alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.14) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds dyfet (~dyfet@65.204.5.82) joined #gnuenterprise. dyfet (dyfet@65.204.5.82) left irc: "Client Exiting" dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dang dyfet left mdean you still vacationing (holidaying)? jcater: dont konw if you or jamest read the log tried to write an app this weekend with GNUe and designer in cvs seems to be b0rked really bad it wont save files it saves them as nasty binary images originally i thought perhaps my cvs update was to blame but i wiped the designer directory and checked out new however i didnt do that for common or gnuef (just designer) um i will try to do clean checkouts what platform but im thinking maybe its I just saved one fine plus I did the intro file using latest linux 2.2.14.xx (rh 6.2) python 2.2.x (latest beta) wxWindows 2.3.x (latest stable) er s/wxWindows/wxPython/wxGTK fwiw: it WORKS great :) i.e. the wizards work everything seems to work properly except a. saving (though iirc it doesnt give errors it just saves crap) b. running Debug i dont have machine here :( so will have to do more work tonight on it i was MAJORLY depressed as i had some time and had fleshed out an application one i needed, but after fighting for about an hour i got up and didnt come back to computer for rest of weekend, cept to read mail :) i know on all the preleases on windows i was able to save just fine so i assume its either i have 'dirty cvs' somehow or that 2.2b and 2.3.x combo doesnt like something you have done :) I really don't know what would cause that its really wild we use Python's open() call and simply spit out text as the saved file is like unless you somehow have some i18n setting set ^@m^@y^3@d@$^@a where myda is really something so its like its 'encoding' the data or somethin g you have a file on hand? if so, can you email it? i.e. if you remove the ^ and @ and other special chars it looks like mmmmm with some ssh magic i might be able to get to it :) lol how was your holiday? good 3 thanksgivings one at home one at moms one at church so thurs, sat and sun had full turkey meal :) wow donuts even 2 days :) ok this is funny workpc -> over firewall port 80 to port 22 -> goats -> homefirewall -> laptop @ home is how im having to get this file Action: dneighbo loves linux rather than scp this back up the chain you know how to send attachments via sendmail from command line? no I always resort to mutt for that (and is why mutt is installed on *every* *nix machine I come in contact with :) rofl didnt think of that i could have used mutt or pine oh well its scp'd up now http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/music_by_song.gfd what is hilarious is if you look at this in a browser it turns the goofy crap to squares and it looks like a normal form with lots of square spacing < I think it's storing it in unicode hmm ah wonder if this is side effect what are your versions again? python version? of the localization stuff that jamest and ra3vat were playing with? sigh, let me ssh back to find out :) (btw, this could be a *good* thing if I can figure out how you did this! :) (as it solves a few of our i18n designer problems) hey man i take pride in my work when i break shit i REALLY break shit none of these pansy bugs where a simple rtfm will solve it :) Python 2.2a4 (#1, Oct 6 2001, 09:01:18) [GCC egcs-2.91.66 19990314/Linux (egcs-1.1.2 release)] on linux2 Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. is what im running hmm a source install? yip had you used designer under this setup before yip (and I mean *used* it :) hmm iirc i did alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" i know i did a bit of forms testing on it for the release but i dont know how hard i hit designer as most everything works in it so its quite possible i was testing features but didnt 'save' things as stated i can wipe my cvs tree and make sure its clean when i get home and see if problem still exists ok you did a cvs co recently and tried? as i know they were playing with unicode (or so i thought in forms) well wonder if they made a change that isnt compatable with designer they were playing with form's event triggers iirc ah you would know better than i will suck if its a python2.2 thing Action: dneighbo spent better part of a day upgrading to 2.2 :) maybe, maybe not as its not a simple python change, its wx*, pygres*, pyxml etc :) Action: dneighbo will try to get deps installed here on debian would it possibly for you to create me tarballs of cvs for designer/forms/common? sure as i dont have cvs access here and for obvious reasons i dont want to create them from the machine im having problems on :) although cvs hasn't changed since the release if hasnt changed since last release i will try last release you running a debian machine? um no ok my laptop *was* until Thursday morning bbiab after get installed on debian here gulp, dare i ask what happened? apt-get fscked up my machine was updating kde sure blame apt-get, damn kde users ;) actually apt-get can bite your ass if you are using testing or unstable UNTIL you learn how to kick its ass i about choked it one day until nickr helped me out cool alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. i had the luxury of having a machine on net other than one i was fighting otherwise i woudl have uninstalled debian and problably never gone back we need debian packages darn it we need debian to update their wx stuff desparately wx is on 2.3.2 and unstable is still on 2.2.7 liar unstable is on 2.2.8.3 i know im downloading it now :) but, but but point well taken wxPy and wx are on two different things IIRC im getting libwxgtk2.2-python currently (thats what version i gave you) won't work w/ a source install of python it should be same as wxPython version iirc ? what wont? libwxgtk2.2-python ah as it expects a .deb python install i apt-got python2.1 going by the books here :) ok, now the fun part jamest: what over wx stuff is there i need? some python .debs are against the "default" python so it 2.1 isn't default it still work work work work = wont work :( as a search is only showing libwxgtk I'm sure you can override install somehow but you'd need a dpkg/apt-masta to show you how fun so cross fingers and hope that 2.1 is default for unstable here nickr, nickr, nickr, here nickr man, dneighbo running unstable....... jamest: i have found unstable to be no worse than trying to deal with rpm issues i feel sorry for debain maintainers at least 90% of the time it heals itself ports collection, baby! jcater: im seriously thinking that after my lastest successes on redhat of using source for everything your lastest? er latest (jamest is rubbing off) is that the most last? you know more, morer, morest or best, bester, bestest Action: dneighbo thought jcater lived in TN, perhaps not :) Mr_You: yes, we call them "tobogans" :) alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: Remote closed the connection ra3vat (~ds@195.239.66.10) joined #gnuenterprise. wright:/home/dneighbo/GNUe-Common-0.1.0# ./setup.py install Setup requires that python's distutils be installed. You can get a copy of it from http://www.python.org/sigs/distutils-sig/ wright:/home/dneighbo/GNUe-Common-0.1.0# python Python 2.1.1 (#1, Nov 11 2001, 18:19:24) [GCC 2.95.4 20011006 (Debian prerelease)] on linux2 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. explain/ please it's those damn debian maintainers distutils is a *standard* part of python 2.x but they package it separately i know fsck Action: dneighbo kick ssome things around his desk and goes back to apt you have to grab python2.1-dev which i guess makes sense in a jacked sort of way guess we need to add that to INSTALL "if using debian apt, apt-get python-dev" sigh that is nuts well we need to contact the maintainers of this stuff and get it so that they have a current version of wx* and that it recognizes at least python2.1 well honestly its our own fault :) if we made gnuef gnue-forms package we would make the dependencies :) and it woudl get python-dev for us but they still need to fix the wx packaging :) hey now i guess you are all kidding python is not more of a dependency as awk or grep (SCNR) SCNR? Action: reinhard hides sorry could not resist reinhard it really is similar we just chose to pick a version that is bleeding edge python1.5.2 at this point is about as common as say perl or bash python 2.x is not roflmao Confucious say, "You will fall in love with tall dark, gnue form" well on debian forms takes about 25 minutes to install not too bad ? that includes download time for all packages and all dependencies 25 minutes ah on slow machine pentium 200 mmx 64mb RAM and honestly it ran pretty quickly here goes designer going where? hmm about 10 second startup (not bad) beats galeon :) the first startup is always slow as it has to compile stuff guys you know what we have some pretty kick ass tools when i think about how hard most linux stuff is to install and most development environments this is good stuff(tm) hmmm designer isnt allowing me to 'move widgets' er never mind its just slow :) i wouldn't ley you either ley = let that's still a little funky you'll just find bugs jamest: rofl jcater: yeah the 'refresh' seems a bit odd didnt notice on a fast machine though :) mouse support is very, very flaky wright:/home/dneighbo/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/intro# gfdesigner DB000: Traceback (most recent call last): DB000: File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/Instance.py", line 425, in OnDebugRun DB000: DebugSession(self) DB000: NameError: global name 'DebugSession' is not defined is same error i get on my box at home when trying to 'debug' the form from designer is this just mean i need to add entry to gnue.conf? sigh probably not it's a bug :) wow 1091 downloads of our 0.1.0 releases btw, we never said we squashed all bugs before the release now it did save properly we just released :) jcater: im not complaining really it looks really nice and thats what 0.1.x are for :) to masta bug fix releases == free pr :) 382 for win32 jamest we had eltoday, linuxtoday, release and kc gnue all on same day jamest: it's sad, but I'm now using our win32 designer to develop all my forms :) that day we had almost 90,000 hits that means about 236 for non-win32 very rough guess bad jcater, why? jcater: if you are around tonight i will try to trouble shoot my problem at home with you cause it runs so well, and otherwise i'd have to do it over vnc so if I can run it natively, I'd rather do it that way jcater: no shame it that, i would rather see you use linux, but its great to get it abused on windows :) well, this is at work as frankly i think this product is going to entice more windows users than linux users and still no QuarkXPress for linux, so my win98 machine must stay let me restate that, more windows users wanting to slowly transition to linux and dual-booting is a pain as i am finding that most of the linux users that are 100% unix want to write everything themselves or they want some uber solution that is so complex they have 100% job security maintaining the code when i see some approaches to things by unix camp jcater: just giving you crap i think egads you need a friggin phd to add a field wtf what's sad is they don't see that 100% job security == 0% promotability jcater: :) jcater: did you apply the patches to designer to the branches as well as HEAD? not yet I need to merge Action: dneighbo is mad that i cant get this unicode save to occur on more than one machine Action: dneighbo losing his ability to cripple products Action: dneighbo thinks perhaps jcater/jamest are getting 'immune' to his super bug powers jcater / jamest were you going to be able to attend the meeting tonight? if its still on I think so what time was it again 6PM? 8PM central, IIRC ah, i might be able to I'll try Action: jcater stretches and pops his knuckles time to add introspection support to designer jcater: what is the time line for things in designer? can you merge first? some things i was thinking.... as I'd like to use head here jamest: yes, was planning to a. introspection on widgets cool if you get busy I can do it it's in the TODO so a datasource widget will only let you select a valid table tec as I'm kinda in a hurry :) will do noqw will do now introspection is next major thing tho the other thing that you mentioned once upon a time from boa contructor and woudl be really nice is native cvs support Action: jcater just downloaded boa CVS it requires wx 2.3.0 cool and I don't mean 2.3.x btw - gnue-forms list is broken Action: jcater will be submitting patches to them soon :) jamest wondering if we are best off just consolidating the names of poeple on the lists to the main gnu.org list and ditching the others fine w/ me i like having several, but we are not using enough as i think we are more effective via irc i'd go to 2 gnue and gnue-announce ok jcater: on your list alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" can i make comments? (you are free to ignore them) sure this one is probably a bitch, but its huge in terms of 'professional' feel and that is currently if you open a form etc it opens a whole new instance of designer yeah in its full glory I've been thinking about how to get around that it'll be part of the UI rewrite it would be better if we could make the code window where the form is and make the form floating liek the property editor and code window I'm still torn about that, but am starting to agree so then when you open a new form just a form opens and then based on what form you have selected shows in the property window now i agree this a complete bitch so i understand trepidation i vote that's a post 0.3.0 release feature :) jamest: ok, merged btw, that merge adds Open Recent support (MRU) cool i thought that was there before? well, the menu item was there but it wasn't implemented yet :) (ran out of time) bbiab.. lunch CyrilB (cyb@AToulouse-201-1-4-119.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Remote closed the connection ra3vat (ds@195.239.66.10) left irc: "Client Exiting" jamest: how do you use the pyscopg driver? i.e. what do you put in the conf file? replace the postgresql w/ pyscopg provider= pyscopg cool kick arse psycopg driver works in full w/ designer introspection and the likes Action: dneighbo is ready to gnue baby :) anyone know of a simple app/task they need? Action: dneighbo is looking to take an existing project w/ a schema and make a gnue version of it for proof of concept bbl Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away 0.51a: [12:03] Last message repeated 1 time(s). ! Crashing at startup has been fixed only in free software do we see such glory in a change log :) ??? our change log? no a project i was going to duplicate btw: one thing that kills me everytime i go to write something in gnue (specially to clone something) is we dont have native grid support while the multi row entries work they are not the best solution is real grid support on any of our todos/ or will it have to wait until the UI rewrite? dunno probably the latter which is what's next, IIRC ok i can hobble along on the 'psuedo grid' for now :) im also needing image support soon for something im toying with guess its tiem to get re aquainted with forms code :) lol ______________________________________________________________________________________________ oops wrong window psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ajmitch (~me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. hi aj & anyone else GNUe Kernel Cousins #4 is now on linuxtoday front page I didn't do it ;-) so the automagic fwd must be working again ajmitch (me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ra3vat (~ds@195.239.64.75) joined #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. psu: cool bbl psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. does the curses forms client work in 0.1.0? nope sure doesn't hard fix or little niggly? um it's part of the UI rewrite i think a person could hack the current stuff to work again but it would be wasted effort IMHO roger i'd rather see madlockes html driver, the current wxpython driver, and our wishlist all pooled together forms client and designer are looking very nice btw mushed up and "done right this time" :) glad to hear someone likes the looks of it :) Well it works and it doesn't craash and it does what I need, what else could I ask for um :) if you haven't found the issues out on your own do you really expect me to list them for you? :) Of course having geas would be preferable, but it looks like forms will do what I need for now heh, well list away haha :) geas driver is next on my list for the 0.1.x series geas is going through a rewrite, no? i think it's api is pending the input it recieves from our driver work database drivers? the forms geas driver I'm confused a bit then nickr if you are actually going to 'use' gnue we must ask you to leave :) haha Well, nice knowing you then... ;) :) I like forms so far well i guess in reality it means one of two things either its a lot easier than writing webforms with trigger and such a. you might be the first real user (thats not a developer) or b. you need to become a developer to keep our track record up I thought I already volunteered to be a developer what with Document Store and all yes you did :) hah hah what db you using with forms? and on what platform? None yet, I'm just playing ah ok you try designer yet? I'll be using Postgres on Debian tea yea if you have postgres running it appears to work, although I find it a little confusing fire up designer and in minutes you will have a functioning data aware form Thats what I'm counting on Z) There is some database setup to do in gnue.conf right? connections.conf right I like that forms can download forms over http.. this is implimented, correct? yes awsome dneighbo: btw, I have an outline and some of the writeup for the document store spec if you want to gander sometime where is the spec nickr ; sorry was away for a minute :) sokay http://www.fargus.net/~nick/proj/document-store/gnue/spec/Document-Store/documentstorespec.html psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. zaheer (~zaheer@host217-34-239-232.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #gnuenterprise. yo howdy [15:11] Last message repeated 1 time(s). hi i'm doing good does the application server work, or should i just concentrate on using forms straight to db? both :) the app server works though in limited capacity with the forms client and designer so i would stick to 2tier for now zaheer - there has been lots of previous discussion on this actually, the geas/form interface is broken jamest is workign on getting it working with appserver ASAP completely doh! i will work on after tuesday night zaheer then i would DEFINITELY say just stick to 2 tier for now :) ok :) jcater: how did your gcomm holiday go? see http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/latest.html#5 dneighbo: yah i will do, though the end goal for our interface is still 3-tier morning all hey zaheer zaheer: absolutely hiya aj, didnt know you were a gnue'er :) zaheer : we usually just call him an irratant zaheer: i'm not, i just annoy them :) :) ajmitch: aaah :) hey ajmitch where is chilly today? dneighbo: who knows dneighbo: working, or is today a holiday? working probably or http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20011103_1.html#9 psu: you're like an faq engine! course the whole mad goat thing is kinda personal and I don't like to talk about it much :) jamest - yep. KC has the potential to develop into an ongoing FAQ/manual if only it were properly indexed by topic sounds useful ;) as well as by author etc. oops, appear to have given myself another job there lol the win32 GNUe Forms d/l includes all dependencies - presumably that includes GNUe Common? yip it's self contained to the point you can network install it and just point networked workstations to the gfclient.exe and they'll work I know derek and reinhard were *very* impressed with it thought I'd better check it out :) "Check it out" as in d/l & have a look, not CVS! would you recommend the "normal" or "debug" .exes at the moment for both Forms & Designer? normal and i got it working with db2 thats why im like estatic jamest: what the installer you used for forms on windows? inno k, thx inno - see KC 4 dneighbo: you added the db2 drivers into extras? jamest: db2 via odbc not native as the native drivers i havent figured out yet i think you need some custom stuff that i dont have on my windows boxen so im going to install db2 client on linux and try to get native to work aj - http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/latest.html#3 now that im positive i can hit a db2 datastore :) as its on a mainframe so i was a bit worried that i might have some issues psu: we need to direct people to the KC before talking to them :) dneighbo - "I think i found a bug" as we only recently (last 5 months) got IP working for DB2, before that it was all over SNA jamest - "Did you read the KC?" dneighbo - "Yes" jamest - "Did you memorize it?" dneighbo - "Np" dneighbo - "No" jamest - "Sorry can't help you." a new variation on RTFM - RTFKC yeah what psu said hehe so this mean we don't have to do docs? we have docs? yes, in that nonfree proprietary lyx format, remember yeah, but they're in lyx chillywilly (~danielb@d163.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. rofl so they suck hi chillywilly Action: dneighbo has found a 'sensitive' subject i see :) hi dneighbo: er? what did I miss? chillywilly: you came just at the right time to use your trout ;) ;) Action: dneighbo writes note to self, 'lambasting a programmer for writing docs. stupid thing to do.' ajmitch: why is that? jamest - http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/latest.html#4 ah, you'll see :) I could do this all night you know but thankfully I have to go to bed soon psu: are you a bot? we need to help you out :) time to take pybot and fix him up so you can do Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard pybot KC:issue:subject so you could do pybot KC:4:4 and it would paste that here in the channel :) a psubot :) works for me well I didn't expect that to be in the KC cw - it's that rare thing, an on-topic flame war lol (actually, everyone was too gentlemanly to make it a true flame war) hrrrrm Action: reinhard is trying to learn to keep his mouth shut since KC is online :) yea, I don't remember swearing at anyone i must go to bed now cw - I cut all the IRC discussion, Action: reinhard yawns night all wasn't a gnome-like flame war reinhard (rm@N801P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Omnis enim res, quae dando non deficit, dum habetur et non datur, nondum habetur, quomodo habenda est. -- Aurelius Augustinus" as the mailing list was basically all the issues heh can't we have a decent flamewar then? sure fuck all of your LyX using bastards! burn in hell! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! ok, I've had my fun Action: ajmitch grabs tranquilizer gun ;P wtf is that? cw - that's the XML for KC heheh if I really want to start a flame war I could always describe myself as an "XML programmer" ;-) yes? haha ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.75) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ra3vat (~ds@195.239.64.75) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). In 1976, the Supreme Court ruled that personal data given to a third party loses its Fourth Amendment protection when it comes to search and seizure. Thus, the minute you put all your digital records, e-mail, calendars, preferences, etc. into somebody else?s on-line hands, you automatically lose all Fourth Amendment safeguards. In the web services era, the implications of this Supreme Court ruling make the FBI?s Carnivore system a wimpy vegetarian. While the U.S. Congress has discussed specifically extending Fourth Amendment protection to on-line/electronic use, nothing has happened and a large uncertain cloud surrounds the issue. These Fourth Amendment protection issues obviously loom large over the future of pervasive computing?especially if you are contemplating putting all of your life?s data out on the web. you just been reading dotgnu lists too? :) yup say NO to .NET! Well, from tonight I am officially living in a country in a state of emergency uk? psu: afghanistan? :) uk finding the link now... how so? psu: i'm in uk too why are we in a state of emergency? yes, why? so that UK can "derogate" from Human Rights Act eh? wtf, who we wanna mess with, so we dont get done by the HRA? http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1653000/1653721.stm gives a good summary I believe final vote is tonight then it goes to Her Maj to sign first thing tomorrow morning yes I really love how Bush is on a fscking power trip now that we are at war all bets are off and he can do whatever he wants and everyone just nods there head yes s/there/their I wrote my congressman and got a response last week it was basically, yes, I see your concerns, but we are in a state of emergency and when balancing liberty with safety, heh the american public wants to make these sacrifices I need to write back and say, bull shit well I don't I still need to read that bill they enacted sounds evil it si supposed to be pretty crappy "Communications companies will be able to retain information on calls and other communication made by customers such as numbers called or e-mail addresses. " Mass trawls or ¿fishing expeditions¿ will not be permitted under a voluntary code of conduct. hmm what I love is when I bitch about how corrupt American politics is and how the ppl have no voice anymore I always get some yahoo telling me to get out of the country then i will say im not for giving liberties for security where did I put my PGP private key? if i wanted to live in communist russia i would have moved there l8r jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "[x]chat" dneighbo: some would day just that...go move to russia, go move to afghanistan.... s/day/say jcater what time is it in TN right now? Old joke from "Yes Minister" (UK TV prog) 4:05 chillywilly soon it might be better off moving "Something must be done" hey at least you can say that by being here and working on GNUe we are doing something about things right? "this is something" "Therefore, it must be done" jcater: thanks, you jokesters all went on daylight savings huh :) psu: you can add that to the KC, "right now, it's 4:05 in TN" jcater: rofl off topic, I think same here in Wisconsin except for people in WI please not for those in Arizona whom are so cocky, as to ignore the concept of daylight savings its a real pain in the ass to remember what time it is elsewhere s/not/note Actually, KCs are meant to be written all in past tense you ignore daylight savings? for real? so it would be "At the time of writing, jcaster announced it was 4:05" chillywilly yep all of AZ doesnt have the 'concept of turning their clocks' it steals your vital essence, you know ;-) CST In our last "real" state of emergency in 1970s, UK had double daylight saving time GMT +0200 part of the year we are on PST and teh other part MST dneighbo: weird but we are ALWAYS GMT -07:00 next time you install a computer look at time there is Arizona Time listed :) I though that was just an advt we're in daylight savings time now, GMT +13:00 "It's Arizona Time..." Logically, GMT +1300 should be impossible rofl +/- 12 should be max i just know that new zealand is like an hour or two diff from us ONLY a DAY ahead :) hehe us == az 11:08am tuesday here its 15:00 monday :) aj - say hi to Tue for us all tell it we'll be along real soon now but when you arent on day light savings hehe we are aonly 3 hours apart nope 5 ah 5 bedtime 22:13 GMT +0000 psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~Stuart@c5300-4-ip136.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Rafterman (tim@203.108.123.36) joined #gnuenterprise. hi Rafterman, long time no see how is your gnue usage going? ToyMan you actually here? or just logged in somewhere floating along :) i'm here ;) ok forms is starting to rock good, any new screenshots? i think its time we start tackling some dstoy action :) yeah, been busy with uni work just come back to the real world *cough* i'm definately into it Action: dneighbo needs to take a week or so vacation and just get you up and running :) will you be on tonight? been getting my new workstation integrated in the network yeah, but I'm at hone home im thinking we need to start an action plan that sounds good, i have a fair idea of some of the steps this whole windows/unix split is really pissing me off trying to move my company into 'nix is no picnic i'm using my new workstation as the test case getting all the bases covered in a \KDE environ which would definately include getting my backend db over to PostGres yes we need to do that the windows front end to gnue is seriously kicking arse so the good thing is we convert that backend for stability is the unix end working as well? and slowly start migrating portions of front end and you can do hybrid for as long as need be yes the unix end runs very well i have been playing with pentium200mmx 64mb running debian and gnome and its working well against your data even :) um, can i odbc into an access db with gnue? yes you sure can :) whoah, you got my data up and running somewhere? which is why we need to talk :) ToyMan my local test machine only no, I wasn't worried about security just surprised actually im in mixed environment your data is on postgres on a crappy pentium 200 w/ 64mb ram i'm looking to patch in the the UPS shipping program, which uses the Access db w/ redhat 6.2 (postgres 6.5) being accessed by debian unstable gnue client :) psycopg driver ToyMan: we have kick ass solution for UPS at LDC well, my db server is a dual 700 MZ PIII with 512 MB we are like one of top shippers in country i can gladly giveyou all python scripts for that its on my todo we use the software UPS gives us now to work with jade to get it all GPL'd and shipped out toyman yes but i mean INTEGRATED so you never key ANYTHING for UPS its all automated realtime ooh, so you UPS ship from out of Gnue even verfying packages arrived :) yes :) very slick. we did for custom package for LDC I was looking to do this in my app, but never got around to it LDC? but jade has been redoing this in python and we will put into GNUe LDC = Liberty Distribution Corporation your company?\ #1 independent vendor of m&m mars candy oh, heh no company jade and i wrote complete inventory/invoicing system for all in delphi windows front ends linux back end havn't seen jade on this list.. what started me (my itch) for gnue jade has been busy :) he works there full time now supporting/extending the system so, first step is to get Postgres up and running on the db server ok can we help you do that? we would be glad to whenever you have time, i could use some help any time tommorrow? maybe, i dont know schedule i am here for about another hour and half then i will be home an hour after that i want to get a roadmap well, i'm basically available during EST office hours i'm at home now, no access to office get dcl installed and start putting stuff in timeline format thats cool dcl? double choco latte its a workorder/ticketing system which does what? allow you to see time lines and submit workorders and trouble tickets ic you use it much? well, i'll irc you tomorrow and see if we can set anything up Remosi (dahoose@210-86-56-90.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. morning Isomer (dahoose@210-86-58-24.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds bing bok chow uh huh ToyMan you here still? quick benchmark dbserver: p233mmx 64mb ram (rh6.2, postgres6.5) client: authentication in postgres is a pain in the ass p200mmx 64mb ram (debian unstable, python2.1) i'm back first form startup 24 second second time 7 seconds query of your phone table both times 3-4 seconds fwiw: phone table has about 10,855 records in version i have heh, i got folks in my office running win95 on a 486 w/ 8 BM and about 10 or so columns ouch they'll think they're in heaven with curses version of gnue i think you could do that well, new boxen on the way... w/o curses i say no way only because gnome/kde are piggy i.e. i wouldnt do either one with less than 64mb well its possible to using bbox for my test environment just i wouldnt blame any application for being slow :) but still... yes im really impressed with performance of gnue on gnome with such minimal specs i mean 7 seconds to load a form is VERY acceptable the times your getting are definately useable yes, especially on bloated gnome :) wxgtk isn't that heavy and getting a full result of nearly 11k records in 3 seconds shouldnt be too painful how about times on a simple query? say 20,000 record db? especially considering that there have been virtually NO performance tuning done a 20k record db with 10 or so columns is gonna be about 3-5sec on this machine that's good enough and navigating records is near transparent not like a lag to roll through the result set i've fixed the data structures on my app, so i guesse i'll have to resend parts :( :) go ahead and resend whole thing you on broad band yet? nope :((( I want the curses forms client so I can experience databases circa 1985 wellyou can mail the disk man third time ran form loaded in about 4 seconds i'll need a quick primer tommorrow on scp and the query now seems to be darn near transparent on 11k records don't know if i still have an account on your dev box i can arrange that that's great! if you zip the files how big are they? 10-20 MB im thinking if you know what you changed you could just send the tables that changed Action: chillywilly reads the logs to see what he missed before jcater: note we need validators working well, tables made it neccessary to change some other things... as i can tell stu desperately needs them :) validators? i think i have seen a phone number in every possible format in this table :) frmo ah sigh it's been started xxx.xxx.xxx to xxx-xxx-xxx to (xxx)xxx-xxxx to xxxxxxxxxx :) ToyMan im assuming you would ike this standardized? yes, all the data was inherited from several dif apps all in diff formats standards would be nice btw: im not knocking you, i work for the govt i have seen much much much worse like 90% of the data being not only formatted differently but being incorrect :) heh, me too. hey you guys know that I have a gif-free phpNuke version? when ever i did a data transfer for a cmpany, it was always a laugh to look at the first 2,000 records or so.. pure junk at one time you must have had a system that enforced capital entry and moved to one that did not I've had telemarketers think that there notes were more important than our customer's address data, so they overwrite the addresses with notes Action: chillywilly was reading cybril's ranting jcater: yikes jcarter: i've seen that too.. it's amazing what some secretaries will come up with it's scary that most of the time.. it makes sense..sort of brb ToyMan in that phone table looks like field 'title' with a lot of hte entries being .Main am i missing something or did my conversion blast data :) jcater can i do a simple patch (or rather what do you think) we dont have on the tool bar (nav bar) go to first record, go to last record I have no problem with that though i think those methods are there ok cool IF you know what you're doing :) um sure i know exactly what im doing when you do queries what can you really do? like if i have field Title can i do wild cards? % is the wildcard to do equive of where title like 'value%' ok can i do > or < or <> or NULL etc roflmao um, no :) ok then we definitely need the search boxes i mentioned before :) *sigh* rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) joined #gnuenterprise. we need a lot of things jcater probably HATES me playing with gnue so much like donuts we need more donuts heheh hey theyu got a crispy kreme up here now ;) cool /dcc http://www.krispykreme.com/glazed/dozen/hotnfresh.dnt jcater erm krispy kreme mmm dang I'd actually considered opening a krispy kreme franchise once man I feel so useless rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). but decided I'd eat all the profits rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) joined #gnuenterprise. I don't feel liek doing anything looks like your wife trojan'd my pc with an spousal donut filter woohooo dcc keeps failing I am hungry I want some donuts it's that NAT interface I have hi rdean you seen mdean? btw rdean you deal with sound and linux? as a sourceforge project on there is run by richard michael dean but it didnt match your sourceforge id so i wasnt sure rdean = robert dean (mdean's bro) ah yes knew you were mdeans bro didnt know what the r was :) np saw richard michael and thought, hmm maybe parents had an obsession with name mike :) :) Nick change: rdean -> rdean-[away] Action: rdean-[away] is away: food or something dneighbo: no, you didn't blow away data... the Title field was always just ill-defined hrrrrm btw: its robert michael dean which is what i though :) Action: chillywilly thinks jcater and jamest are being little babies why? baby baby baby and masta too of course you all can kiss my ass :P I read the logs right before I popped in chillywilly: bend over and part the hairs you figure it out whatever! I mean that in the nicest way possible I still love you guys I think its more of a mode than a method true I was thinking about that but couldn't think of a good attribute name just not int he same ways anymore...we need to work on our relationship guys or, impersonation="valleygirl" that better? :P :'( nobody loves me anyway Action: Remosi ponders a group of people that are arguing the structure of XML for jokes on IRC not even ajmitch damn it all!!! chillywilly: you been using your deodorant? that could be a problem? of course you big meanie Remosi : well you know if you are gonna do something, us enterprise folks insist that you follow a standard and if no standard exists, then you have raised something to argue about :) ha! dneighbo: and so you should :) oh shit I forgot to call this place thus arguing about XML structure for irc jokes :) Action: dneighbo wonders if that will make it in KC GNUE #5 bkuhn (~bkuhn@rampart.gnu.org) joined #gnuenterprise. uh oh it's da man I am not "da man" by any stretch of the imagination. :) jcater and company decided and agreed upon the fact that 'valleygirl' is a method rather than a mode when making tonal inflection in irc speech chillywilly: stop talking bad about the FSF ok, da man's right hand man as long as you are 'a' man im cool with it or something bkuhn ? I don't think RMS is da man either. ;) as that beard would look silly on a woman :) s/would/would 've bkuhn: rms is my hero :) He's a man, and som am I. ;) its not 9pm est is it? ok, enough ass kissing dneighbo: no, but I cam along to find out what's going on. ok cool dneighbo: I just sent email; a lot of people never acked that the time was ok. as i have to run home and thats an hour commute, thought i messed up my timing :) dyfet will be here i think bkuhn: we were discussing a standard format for jokes in IRC he was on at 9AM est and was like dood why are you late to me :) he sounded as though he would be returning tonight well, I can call him if we want to change it. I can usually reach him. btw: we had discussed possibly doing this completely open I realized that the time is really bad for people in Europe, too. in the sense that we would make a public irc channel dneighbo: yeah, I know. and make it so that only the core people can talk for the first hour dneighbo: I'd like to do it in an open way, as long as the traffic doesn't become unbearable. this way traffic would be minimal dneighbo: that sounds good---but to do that right we need to announce it to all the developers lists, which is an argument for not doing it today. and if someone from one of the teams wanted to comment they woudl do via thier representative dneighbo: sounds very good (for the first hour, of course). bkuhn: i think we are ok still for today probably not best to be HIGHLY publicized anyhow i think most of the gnue and dotgnu teams know of it and we can surely invite the phpgroupware folks outside dan in to listen as well dneighbo: I see that point, but there were people from DotGNU who were interested (particularly Norbert) who didn't ok the time. im hoping if it goes well this will be the first of either a weekly or biweekly meeting dneighbo: And, Norbert is in Europe, so it will be the middle of the night for him. dneighbo: I hope it goes well too, which is why I am fretting so over the details of making sure people feel included. fret fret fret it would be nice for the GNU project as a whole to have a meeting like this minimally once a month just to get the maintainers in same room and see where paths collide dneighbo: That's probably impossible, but I *do* think the GNU project as a whole should have an annual meeting. and projects that are working together to show the fruit bkuhn when i say gnu project i mean as much as possible of course you wont be able to coordinate everyone making it but those that can, will those that cant wont dneighbo: yes, perhaps it would make sense to announce a monthly IRC meeting, and invite everyone and whoever shows up can talk. yes dneighbo: but it is hard to do an agenda if you don't know who is coming. ;() Remosi (dahoose@210-86-56-90.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) left irc: Remote closed the connection i would say do first hour as maintainers only speaking and then open discussion after that but allow the whole thing to be viewed dneighbo: but anyway, I do think it makes sense to postpone today's meeting, so it can be a little more inclusive. the mozilla team did this a lot early on and as a bystander user of their tools i liked it dneighbo: with your "representative" idea, it doesn't matter how many people show up anyway, so we might as well make it so as many can show up as want to. yes i still think its worth talking today if we can get dan to show up i think david will be here dneighbo: yeah, Dan never chimed in to say the time was ok. and i think david can speak a lot towards direction of dotGNU for an initial meeting dneighbo: I must admit that I have a vest interested in postponing it, as I locked myself out of my apartment and it would be easier to coordinate getting let back in if I don't have to be online at 9PM. ;) then we can set something more official and inclusive at later date rofl sorry im laughing with you not at you :) dneighbo: you can laugh at me; I deserve it. well we can postpone then perhaps when you get back in the building you can come back here dneighbo: I was telling the FSF staff today that all my life, everywhere I have ever have keys to (places that is, not cars and other things), I have locked myself out at least once. and we can discuss what it will take to arrange a more official meeting that we can post publically and properly prepare for? dneighbo: I thought my apt. in Cincinnati would be an exception, but I did it 3 months before moving to Boston. dneighbo: and, my first place in Boston is no exception now. (as for the FSF offices, I locked myself out about 4 months ago. ;) well, its ok to lock yourself out, its locking yourself in that is sign something is wrong :) Isomer (dahoose@210-86-56-90.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo: my internet access from hom is not reliable enough to do the meeting from there. ? even a 19k connection can carry conversation ok I have a regular modem connection, but it shares the regular phone line. just figured easier to irc to setup the offical meeting than email So, if my SO needs to use the phone, I might have to unexpectedly get offline. hmmm im curious as to who will show up tonight as i know some gnue folks (myself included) carved some time for this if dan k. shows up i think its worth meeting well, if it is going to not be an official meeting, just a meeting to plan when to meet, then I really dont *need* to be there anwyay. as it seemed we need to discuss the most with them dneighbo: yes, I think that's the key discussion. the dotgnu team are regular to irc and we can readily meet with dave/norbert at their convience dneighbo: although, at this point, Dan has indicated he'd like to merge phpGroupware and GNU Groupware standards in with DotGNU. i did hope you would be able to communicate as well on the situation so you would know a bit mroe about gnu enterprise so, really, this is a "DotGNU and GNU Enterprise" meeting, since they are going to merge. see i would like to discuss this more i dont see how groupware and dotGNU can merge into a 'project' here's an idea. i see how phpGroupWare could adopt 'dotGNU' for part of it why don't I discuss stuff with you now. but really dotGNU is protocols not an application then, I can go and get myself into my apt. afterwards. as i really questioned that announcement like i can see gnue using dotGNU for things and being dotGNU compatiable but i never see them 'merging' dneighbo: I agree with you on that point. as they have different purposes i.e. in essence i dont believe groupware standards belong in the dotGNU spec phpGroupware fits well as a part of DotGNU because one of the key things the DotGNU folks are trying to do is services of all different types. if that makes sense :) phpgw api fits in with dotgnu DotGNU is probably going to be a big tent, in the same way GNU Enterprise is (I think, correct if wrong). if they say groupware is one of the first apps they wish to write using dotGNU then i think that makes sense :) ok in that sense perhaps it makes sense for us we clarify the difference chillywilly: I believe that from DanK.'s point of view, he wants the phpGroupware code to be become obsolete--the protocols for interoperatin are what's important. there are GNUe Tools (which are framework pieces) and GNUe Applications which are applications built using the framework dneighbo: yeah, that's the same sort of distinctino that DotGNU is making. what he means i assume is that he wants to help build the dotGNU tools dneighbo: although the project is young enough that they don't have clear names for the parts yet. then use those tools to author a groupware application :) i have to run :( Yes, although likely the terminology will catch peopel. (When I hear tools, I think of gcc :0 dneighbo: ok. as i promised would be home by certain time so i could make the meeting Action: jcater too dneighbo: understood. i will be back in 1 hour if you are here great, if not i understand dneighbo: I will try to get back into my apartment now, and I should be there at 9PM. hopefully dan will be here and dyfet so we can meet regardless :) ok thanks for stopping by dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "[BX] Silly wabbit, BitchX is for kids!" dneighbo: I just realized that my SO doesn't get off work until 9:30PM, which means I can use the connection. so, I should be able to make it. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home" chillywilly: I should note, on the "RMS hero" thing, that I think it's pretty important to always keep in mind that heros are regular folks as well. bkuhn: I was sorta joking around chillywilly: understood. where is the log posted anyway? chillywilly: It's just that a lot of people come up to me at my speeches and conferences and the like and say: "RMS is such a hero; I am amazed at what he's done" bkuhn: I admire him...but he's not God chillywilly: but I always have to remind them that we can all do what RMS is done; just by writing Free Software and taking a stand for software freedom. bkuhn: yep chillywilly: It takes a great and brilliant person to invent the idea of a Free Software Movement and of copyleft, but any one can help those ideas live on. It's really funny, in fact. A lot of people tell me, when I say we need volunteers, the following: "I wanted to volunteer for GNU and/or for the FSF, and thought I wasn't good enough." I tell them that we're just a bunch of programmers and concerned citizens---no need be a famous computer scientist to get involved. ok, so I am going to go try to get back into my apt., and try to make that 9PM meeting. bkuhn: you see my post on the list for dotgnu/GNUe intergration and what can be shared between the app server and dotgnu "middleware" dotgnu list I am Daniel E Baumann fyi chillywilly: I likely haven't seen it yet. I am always at least 48 hours behind on email, and on the general developers@dotgnu list, I am months behind. :( My daily email spool of stuff addressed to bkuhn@gnu and bkuhn@fsf is as much as most mailing lists. :( danielb@freedevelopers.net to be more precise ok chillywilly: but, based on your one line description here, I think there is a good way to do sharing. what we need to do is decide on sharing protocols between GNUe and DotGNU. It doesn't matter if the code merges---in fact, there is no real reason it has to---we just have to agree on how we all talk to each other. bkuhn: well I am tryin to keep one foot in each place anyway :) chillywilly: I am glad you are. that's important. ok, I am off to try to get back into my apartment. bkuhn (bkuhn@rampart.gnu.org) left irc: "Liece" well I think if we make gcomm (or whatever) more than an PRC abstraction layer, but a "middleware glue" we can make it generic enough for anyone to use it in place of regualr old corba or soap, etc. but that's just my crazy idea jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201190.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. I think its a good idea Although i think it'd make more sense to just build a glue out of it rather than it itself being glue afternoon all evening nickr: well it would just be a wrapper I think i see bkuhn was in but you could even go further and use an idl-like thing to represent your "glue" interface...maybe even odl with persistence ajmitch: yep http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log please tell me what you see here (if anything) nothing errors? my bad you fixed it seems to be a log now ;) good jcater (~jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hiya jcater hiya chillywilly hail oh jcater! ToyMan (Stuart@c5300-4-ip136.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" mein.conf heil gnu! chillywilly: that's just sad it is a joke I am not a gnu nazi jcater you use konq right? when it's not using me, yes http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log please tell me what you see here (if anything) mine isn't happy Action: ajmitch should krank up konq i really don't want to change apache config for konq hmm bah use galeon then it brings up Advanced Editor i guess it's cos it's text/plain? my galeon is the shiznit no it's text/x-log ok ajmitch: hiiiiiisssssssss opens in an editor here I didn't know we had a "current day's" log ding we didn't until a few minutes ago chillywilly: shut it, before i troutslap you for trying to lock users into one browser lol ajmitch: bite me konq whore chillywilly: you weren't ever in a debate club, were you? jcater: nope jcater: they'd never let chillywilly in one of them ;) feh I am busy ont he phone "no, you're wrong, you fscking whore" heh can't debate just yet hehe jcater: bite me what is name of k advanced editor i need to install it kcrap kate [19:01] Last message repeated 1 time(s). krap even :P krap... that's the GNOME emulate library for KDE IIRC chillywilly: i find this vile hatred of KDE intolerant ajmitch: I find you to be a pain in the ass sometimes too, but I still love you rofl heh howsit Isomer? anyway, I am only joking going! bye! bye you can go on record and quote me KDE is Free I just don't like it though and that is my choice and I can tlak crap about it if I want to talk unless someone gets all kick happy then I guess I can't but I jave never been kicked form here yet ;) lord knows I try j/k pity, really chillywilly: i'd love to get kick happy but I'm too lazy to op in i find it just as easy to use /ignore :) :) j/k there's not one guy in here that I wouldn't stand up for but that only gets used in channels like #debian jamest: :P ok I go eat now Action: chillywilly is away: dinner rdean-[away] (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201190.flinthills.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds alright... who took his shackles off? whose? jamest hmm, you shouldn't let that happen jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201190.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. was I the only one kicked? yep dyfet (dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hey dyfet hows things? oh pretty well cool I hope everyone's been able to keep up with the Bayonne releases :) uhm... i've never tried it ;) dave wassup? Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:30:30) mdean (mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" chillywilly: i need to force dpkg to remove a partially installed file nothing like it telling me after it starts install it needs newer kernel ouch then telling me it can't uninstall why would it need a newer kernel? dpkg --remove --force-all package does not work it's ppp --purge ? ah, ppp :) bloody maintainers having fun in perth at the moment grr nope mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. mdean my man hey chillywilly hi guys hey no dan yet? or brad hey derek not that i see dyfet anyone from dotgnu coming ? Seek3r? isn't that his nick? yes yea Sorry, I was in another room :)... I guess I may be it... what a turn out i created #gnuproject for us to have the discussion in hmm, myrddian doesn't seem to be around well, technically, phpgw is also.."from dotgnu" :) derek: moderated? unless we just want it here i suppose we have it autologged here and we can turn on moderation in here and KC :) yeah yea this seems reasonable to do ok for now no need to moderate unless it gets out of hand it'll stop any on-topic GNUe discussion tho ;) we can wait another 10 or 15 to see if phpgw folks are coming yeah I popped into their room but I dont really know any of them bkuhn (~bkuhn@host213.216.41.121.ma.110.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hey bkuhn wb hi. speak of the devil ah, I was just about to say and I dont see Bradley around :) #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. I hope I am not a devil. ;) heh il diablo heh what channel should we meet on? perhaps we should make another channel and set topic on all the others to tell pepole where to go... bkuhn: we have #gnuproject but were going to just meet in here i htink unless there was major objection since its already logged etc #gnuproject sounds good, if it isn't in use by others right now. i guess it doesnt really matter...pick a spot, Bradley :) I don't really care. [19:48:05] -ChanServ- The channel [#gnuproject] is not registered I just don't want to annoy others woh want other traffic. chillywilly: so? I think here can work, there already is a running log robot dyfet: ok. ajmitch: so you can take it over if someone is in there just kick them out :P the one in dotgnu is a little unreliable running on a dialup & all '_ #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jamest' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. ok, so I mentioned we're meeting here on #phpgroupware and #dotgnu. is there anywhere else we should tell people? all hail jamest um #debian that of course is a JOKE :) oy derek: heheh that'd only lead to disaster poor #debian bkuhn: we love debian, but its #debian thats the joke :) nb (~norbert@pop-be-2-2-dialup-159.freesurf.ch) joined #gnuenterprise. derek: understood. Besides, I doubt most people on #debian would be that interested. ok, so, we should get started, I suppose. hey its norbert does anyone have dan's number? perhaps we could call him? Hi Derek mondays are days that are easy to forget things :) I have Dan's number, as it turns out. why dont you try to give him a ring before we start although, since he didn't chime in email, I was reluctant to bother him. ok. I guess a call won't hurt; if he can't come, he'll say so. well we have a good turn out i htink he is only one missing so i think its worth it yes mdean: you here? ja cool Action: bkuhn finds mobile phone to make call... #gnuenterprise: mode change '-v zaheer' by derek!~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net hmm #gnuenterprise: mode change '+v zaheer' by derek!~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net #gnuenterprise: mode change '-v zaheer' by derek!~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net Dan isn't there. yo ok how do you do this moderation thing again I won't bother to leave a message. derek: /mode +m #gnuenterprise first zaheer: sorry you were my test case :) I think derek: after that you can take away our voices there is no need to moderate with the software---I think we can trust people to "self-moderate". :'( derek: yah pick the most idle person :) j/k at least, I think that's the right way to do it. ok hmm thats cool by me im too dumb to figure out the software :) hehe Action: chillywilly promises to be good chillywilly: as if! ;-) *LOL* derek: you're too dumb? How about me---I can barely handle using IRC. :) ok lets start ok, derek. Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by derek!~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net: The GNU Project - Meeting of the Minds - As Feeble As They May Be The main reason that I wanted to have this meeting is so we can have a discussion about how interfaces between GNU applications that have overlapping target sets can work together. lets do introductions to start just in case: Not by necessarily sharing code (although that's helpful when it works), but by agreeing on protocols. derek: good idea---I am ahead of myself. im derek neighbors - co maintainer of gnu enterprise im james thompson - co maintainer of gnu enterprise I'm Jason Cater, submaintainer of GNUe-Reports I am bkuhn, VP of the FSF. I do server on DotGNU Steering Committee, but for puposes of this meeting, I am representing only the GNU project as a whole, not DotGNU. btw: this is for psu as much as anything :) robk (~Him@202.83.74.3) joined #gnuenterprise. Michael Dean - maintainer of Double Choco Latte and phpGW contributor dyfet? nb? Action: derek figures he has a lot of typing to do :) yes? here I'm Norbert Bollow, in Switzerland... nb you are with dotGNU specifically do hold some valued title there :) I am David Sugar, I chair the dotgnu steering committe, and maintain several gnu packages and busy making an all-out challende on Microsoft called DotGNU :-) and you represent free developers as well correct ? (Chief Technology Officer) Rob Kearey - Red Hat employee and occasional bug finder dyfet that is Yes, I do also represent Free Developers as their CTO ok i think unless others wish to chime in we can start now :) if you dont mind i will pontificate for a moment so, I will restate what I said before for robk: The main reason that I wanted to have this meeting is so we can have a discussion about how interfaces between GNU applications that have overlapping target sets can work together. Not by necessarily sharing code (although that's helpful when it works), but by agreeing on protocols. ok, go ahead derek: pontificate what brad said :) plus: wanted specifically for log purposes state we are looking to unify in approach DCL - Double Choco Latte dotGNU phpGroupWare Bayonne and GNU Enterprise I don't mean to interrupt but who shoudl we go through if we do not wish to cause too much noise? Some can +m stuff rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) joined #gnuenterprise. to see where vision and architecture intersect go through the maintainer of your project via msg if they feel it appropriate they can paste to main channel im done pontificating One minor correction, when we speak of Bayonne in this regard, we should speak of GNUCOMM as a whole but would like to add i know what everythign does except dotGNU im sure i am not the only one (my fellow gnue'rs have questions tehre too) perhaps david or nb you can explain 'quickly' the vision of dotGNU? does everyone agree this would be a good starting point? certainly then we can discuss possible overlap or shared architecture i think the goal here is to start talking Ok... I have to go idle briefly---someone from office is in emergency room...needs insurance info help... not necessarily get into technical details too much :) bkuhn: thats cool its all logged :) Let me start by summarizing Microsoft's .NET as something that is tryin gto catch everyone in a .NET and lock them in... Okay if you wish to do the intro for dotgnu, norbert... DotGNU is about doing just the opposite... Meeting the same technical needs with webservices and stuff... can i interject? .net is amporhic and non specific but in a way that users / customers can be sure that they can't get locked in. it comprimises on a myriad of technologies and approaches is dotGNU designed to met and match every piece of .net? i understand .net to be - authentication (passport/hailstorm) - tools (C#) We don't necessarily have to match everything one-on-one. - and protocols (SOAP derivates) plus other stuff i surely dont know about :) But we must provide all of those building blocks. ok so it would be somewhat safe to say the goal of dotGNU is to offer a 'free' as in libre implementation of .Net the leading question would be then will it 'interoperate' with .net or merely be an alternative I am back...catching up... Yes, it does, Derek...our goal is to provide a compatible environment where standards compliance exist (hence ECMA spec bytecode runtime, etc) , but not where it either compromises commercial integrety or security. In this areas we will provide alternate solutions for authentication and identity. Free implimentation only where we do not compromise core principles. Yes... ok i think that gives me enough to go on based on my limited understanding of .net (please beat me when necessary) Also we can do things that Microsoft won't, like support *both* C# and Java. jcater / jamest / mdean any specifics for dotGNU folks you wish to ask? on a general level? derek: nope - I was reading their site earlier not at the moment if not then i would say does anyone have questions about gnue, dcl, gnucomm, phpgw ? if not i think gnue folks have discussed a bit pre this meeting and can offer some ideas that have floated around our camp Milosch (~milos@dsl254-035-221.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #gnuenterprise. What's the relationship between Savannah and dcl? mdean: I'm not aware of a relationship at this time skeeter (~skeeter@cs666916-91.satx.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. fwiw: i think gnue is looking to use dcl in place of savannah at this time for some things as it has more capabilities perhaps its worth phpgw,dcl and loic talking about this? as we would like this functionality on the gnu machines :) any other questions? mdean: it could be that loic and others working on savannah don't know about dcl. DCL needs some more features implemented before I would consider it in such an environment, but it *is* within the scope of the project perhaps its worth noting that currently gnue and dcl have relationship phpgroupware and dcl have relationship phpgw and dotgnu have relationship and, dcl and phpGroupware have a relationship too? or am I incorrect? that is correct yes - DCL can operate within phpGW well if no one has more project specific questions mdean: how does it operate with phpGroupware? and no one objects i would like to jump into the 'issues' Action: derek will wait until mdean satisfies bkuhn question derek: I would like some more informatoin about the relationships between GNUe, DCL and phpGroupware. There is also a developing relationship between GNUCOMM and phpGW that may be worth touching upon bkuhn: if it detects that it is part of a phpgw installation, it defers to phpGW's UI handling (page rendering mostly) bkuhn: otherwise, no code is shared at this time also one between bayonne/gnucomm and gnue mdean: but, they can't share data about users athentication, calendars, etc? mdean: if not, are there plans for that? bkuhn: not yet - there are plans for it mdean: ok, good news. derek: I am satisfied, go ahead with stating what you see as the issues. bkuhn: I've been working on a project for work that will see a lot of these features come out bkuhn: as to dcl/gnue there are plans to use same underlying data and down road possibly authentication etc lot of focus is going towards making dcl more than just a 'web application' oh, one last question i forgot: mdean, will you submit dcl to be officially a GNU program? i.e. creating gnue interfaces (UI's) for it bkuhn: can you email me the specifics on the procedure? things i see as 'issues' or 'worth discussing', i will list them and then we can decide what we want to discuss derek: What are gnue interfaces like? sure, msg me the email address to use. shared/multiple authentication methods for seamless integration of authentication and permissions/security is important XML definitions and its possible as our webui driver comes online that the php code could be entirely eliminated and it would be all done with the gnue tools now for the issues/discussion points 1. we have been facing RPC issues, i.e. which to use, and have started a library to abstract this, there could be shared value here 2. Groupware standards, we see HUGE value in GNU setting standards that are implementation free, i.e. just like html has a standard and anyone can write a browser, doing same for groupware, and other items 3. Authentication, we see lots of overlap in projects trying to do authentication, the key is it needs to be flexible and not highly complicated to implement 4. RBAC - role based access control - this is the 'second part' to security at a process level, key for business applications also see shared value 5. workflow - shared workflow component would be nice or at least API or such those are the top 5 i see anyone wishing to add items please do so with a number in front of them then brad you can pick the number you wish to discuss and we can discuss :) I think these are a good start. 1. is of interst to me Of these, I think 2 and 1 are the most important, and 3, 4, 5 might fall out in the wash when we come to consensus on 2,1. cause we have started code for it and have lots of questions about what dotGNU is doing :) I agree... I'm most interested in 1, 2 and 3. We need Dan K. involved to really discuss 2 well, but we could start. answer for 1. should be yes, imo ok so nb agrees to do 1 - 3 and we nominate jcater to do 4 - 5 sounds good ;) I think (1) needs to be part of (2) to ssome extend. yep the groupware standards need to define what ways RPC is going to happen. nb / jcater let us know when you are done... ok back to seriousness bkuhn: i 100% DISAGREE I do as well the group ware standard should have ZERO to do with implementation jcater,derek: ok, why? bkuhn: and the rpc method might touch on auth as well when the w3c made an html / xml etc spec it was independent of implementation they didnt say you had to have architecture x or y or such they said you just had to meet parameters of a b c groupware specs should be the same imho (what derek said :) the GroupWare standards should be able to utilize any RPC mechanism look at say vCARD spec derek: oh, I see what you are saying, and I agree. it should be possible to write to the groupware specs without a specific RPC implementaiton in mind. yes but, I think amoung the groups in question, it would be good to have a "decided upon" default way o fdoing. :) sure thats number 1 :) and a defined procedure naming standard in effect.. seek3r (aka Dan K.) has just arrived. cool I invited him here. cool derek: ok, I understand. There was just a small terminology misunderstanding. so lets stick to #1 if all agree ok (1) is fine. soorry.. not seek3r... skeeter jcater perhaps you can tell us what you have done so far for GComm (our rpc abstraction lib) and where we are going with it mds (~mds@209.246.19.194) joined #gnuenterprise. then nb perhaps you can say a bit on what dotGNU is doing in this area Well, we are still in the beginning stages, but.. No, I know that phpGroupware is using XML-RPC. I don't know enough about it to have a technical opinion on it. basically we are trying to create an abstraction layer for various RPC methods be it CORBA, XML-RPC, SOAP, etc s/No,/Now,/ phpGW wil suport both XML-RPC and SOAP.. Let me preface this by saying we aren't defining some new object transport layer but our goal is to write a lightweight wrapper around all of these that will allow us to add new methods as time goes on jcater: this sounds like a good idea to me. dyfet, nb: do you see such a library fitting with what is going on in DotGNU? basically, you define your interface once, and it's exposed to all these transports Yes, I do, and also it would be very useful in GNUCOMM right now... jcater: That's one of the things we've been dreaming about (a while back, when it was discussed) what about a transport layer that makes RPC stuff transparent though? yes... that's how we are doing it for the XML-RPC/SOAP/php classes.. jcater: No-one has started writing any code to implement it, though. Seek3r (~dankuyken@cy38126-b.coi1.ca.home.com) joined #gnuenterprise. doh! jcater: one of the concerns that I would have is that this has been tried so many times and had major drawbacks. I am thinking particularly of Bonobo, which is so hard to use. got the time mixed up i think this is a case where it makes sense to 'share code' Action: mdean thwaps Seek3r bkuhn: we force ourselves to use the KISS principle which really helps out :) bonobo no offense sucks major nut sack Seek3r: no problem. we are discussing first the issue of handling RPC. they have goal of trying to change industry nb: does your group have logged discussions on what y'all were looking for? we have goal of trying to unify it Well, I wouldn't use those terms, but it does have an extremely high barrier of entry. think of a layer like db abstraction only for rpc instead of dbs bonobo is too tied to corba... The other idea which has some following is to use JAM as a transport. JAM? Jabber As Middleware... you should theoretically be able to add JAM too actaully that is on our list :) s/theoretically// Most discussions in dotgnu can be found in the mailing list archives...Yes, we have had discussions about Jabber i have talked to jabber folks a year ago about this basically upfront we look to support SOLID standards like XML-RPC a variation of the Jabber protocol which has stalled, and which the proponents are trying to revive by selling DotGNU on it :-) CORBA and SOAP http://milosch.dyndns.org/phpgroupware/phpgwapi/doc/xmlrpc/gw_interface.html <-- early version of one plan but this is our point... then add additional protocols like new/better ways come along all the time custom socket layer and message queuing protocols like jabber our abstraction layer should be able to accomodate this JAM interface as it comes along the idea is you dont change client or server code (or the next big thing) you simple tell each that they are using a 'new transport' yes This is good. we have need for this regardless and are willing to write it (in fact we have started already) we would love to share it and make it usable by all ok, so it sounds to me like this library wouldn't care if someone else's program wrote to XML-RPC, or SOAP, or other such things. From what languages can it be used? or if its a crack pipe idea we would like to know that as well and why :) bkuhn: correct hehe I think it's a good idea, as long as you avoid the Bonobo complexity. bkuhn: KISS :) that's the GNUe philosophy Action: chillywilly takes another hit on hs crack pipe that's the only bad thing that I can see coming of it: an API so complex that no one can write to it. Bonobo folks were all into KISS at the beginning too. ;) currently it works with python it's python only at this time i suppose it would be easy based on something i was reading the other day jcater: but I wanna make this big ol' middleware monster :P if you can stick with KISS, that's good. to make it work with virtually any language I would think of our python module as a proof of concept/reference implementation derek: is the base library in C, with Python interfaces, or is the base library in Python right now? jcater i saw something like swig for python that creates snubs for anything no its python jcater: oh, I see. and before a flame starts python is just more productive we are NOT anti C if the prototypes work and people want it 'faster' it shouldnt be hard to convert it to C Action: chillywilly strokes poor old GEAS we have found starting in C only slows thigns down derek: the reason that I worry is that C often ends up being the lowest common demonitor. To make it interfacable easily from C, you have to write it in C. thats not true technically derek: I think doing prototypes in VHLL's is a great idea. derek: yes, I know it isn't true technically, but pratically, it's often true. bkuhn: true - and I think that will have to happen to interface with PHP and other high level languages Python is a fine language... but we need something that can be used from all the languages that DotGNU is trying to supprt. bkuhn: no, practically the C libraries get dropped because of complexity i would say unless people have an allegeric reaction to python for some reason this transport is best prototyped in C er python nb: what are those, out of curiosity? then moved to C as necessary C is great because you can make all the language bindings you want nb python can do that derek: I agree, protoype in something that speeds up development, then set in stone using C. example i write C code then i run swig to make it usable by python and perl I agree derek python has its own swig so you can write in python and run the python swig to make it usable in C/C++, perl, java etc etc jcater: Top priority are Java and C#... and as stated if its working prototyped etc and people are 'liking it' then someone can easily convert it to C or C# and we will start to use that if that makes sense jcater: PHP3 is also important now because of phpGW... derek: dotGNU wants to implement a virtual machine that will support C#, Java, perl, python. etc. bytecode i just hate to shoot for pie in the sky right? s/derek:// question: Whats the hangup here about what language to use. All of this needs to be language independant anyways. and not have anything useful as we need this like in a week or two and fully expect a somewhat usable prototype in that time line as for the language, i suggest english Seek3r: yes, definitely language is irrelevant Seek3r: yes agree but you have to start in SOME language we are trying to prove a model then use python... the protocols are the key to all of this Seek3r: we're talking about the implementation of the RPC abstraction library so it can be reused i.e. we arent saying it only be python or only c or only plenty of code exists for it.. and you feel comfortable using it now.. but, before we fall down into discussions of langauge independance, it suffices to say that what gnuE is doing in this regard is simply not incompatible with what other projects are doing, since the other projects (DotGNU, phpGroupware) are planning to support XML-RPC, SOAP, or a protocal like that. yes thats WHY we started this whole thing derek: got it we were using corba but some people used SOAP others XML-RPC etc bkuhn: correct. I think the key thing to discuss is what the procotol wo;; cover will and we are like this sucks as we lose no matter what we choose so we thought the way to win is to not have to choose :) and thus GComm idea was started :) here's a little of how phpGW implemented both XML-RPC/SOAP in one swoop... We already had all of our librabries built using php... so I think that if you choose to work on XML-RPC in GComm first, then everyone will be happy. bkuhn: agreed well to us thats moot as we plan to do more tha ONE first :) we just used small wrappers that unwrapped each (XML-RPC/SOAP) and translated the call into a php call... let php work the data, and repackage it back to the calling protocol.. (BTW, you might consider a different name, because there is already a GNUCOMM that is the GNU Communications stuff (Bayonne, etc.). That's confusingly similar to GComm) gnucomm is using XML-RPC, incidently.... bkuhn: we have too issues a. is agreeing on what protocol to use which i think is moot for gnuenterprise as we plan to support about everythign :) yes, all this is done thru an ExecMethod() function. Even internally we use this ExecMethod() to execute functions. This way we also can have a single point for logging the other one would be is there ability to reuse code for this library if everyone demands rolling own so be it, we can end that part of conversation if there is room to share code lets discuss it DotGNU also wants to support everything... and actually I think Python should be fine... based on what nb just said, it sounds like there would be an interest in code sharing. as long as the parts on which Jython chokes can be avoideed. nb: has DotGNU looked at the Internet Virtual Machine? ok, platform and server independence-wise: 1. methods() 2. accounting info needed to be available with each method 3. service naming for abstraction to interconnect protocols fwiw: we are not demanding python, but its quickest to market for us derek: ok about the name change for gcomm Milosch: whoa i think we are are talking diff things it's was a working name that stuck IIRC we're open to changing it jamest: understood, it might be worth changing it to avoid confusion with GNUCOMM. derek: i don't think so yes infact we demand it change so its not confused with gnucomm :) gnurpc? Action: chillywilly has made a couple sugeestions which no one said if they like them or not :P gnurpc sounds good jcater: let's save name discussion for another time. jcater how funny thats what came to my mind ok sorry for choppy responces - wife has put me to work :) one sec. maybe we should have bkuhn set out one topic at a time. jamest: just say n no Yes, the meeting is starting to spiral out of control IMO. Milosch: only reason i say maybe diff thing, is we are talking transport only (currently) not getting into all the object mess So, are there any more issues about the RPC-protocol discussion? bkuhn: why dont you go ahead and use the channel /topic to set it and then we can go one issue at a time it sounds to me like everyone can work together, even if some choose to support only ONE of the many that the gComm will support. is the issue not rpc abstraction? what is the end "result" of the RPC-protocol discussion? unless you know what you hope to acheive within each server, pertaining to talking with another server, the methods must first exist, then you abstract that, no? jcater: correct RPC abstraction rather could someone op me? Mr_You: thanks :) bkuhn: I've been here for years now and not even I get opped :-P heh seems like years *shrug* heh jcater: can you respond to Milosch comment i think you might state better than me If gnurpc (gcomm) can support and interoperate between the different varients well, then yes, you could be right Bradley Milosch: well I thought you couls use an idl-like thing and then process tha file...but some ppl say I am tryin to make it too big of a thing...I think odl would be cool So is it agreed that everyone will first work on XML-RPC support and do it in a way that SOAP will be easily supported as well? Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by derek!~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net: RPC Can someone then set the topic, then, as Seek3r suggested. thanks derek. sigh i think we are talking past each other seek3r Milosch: the layer does not care about your methods we all agree to support soap and xml-rpc derek: me too. sorry it just needs to know what they are the idea is to support them with one code base jcater: ok, fair enough but don't you need to define your interface some how? derek: thats not going to be possible, or even worth while so we arent all re inventing the wheel Milosch: I apologize if I miss what you are asking derek: of course that's the goal, but you have to implement one first, right? chillywilly: yes, in english :) chillywilly: yes Seek3r: i heard nb and dyfet say they were interested how can you amke an abstarction layer that talk to stuff without knowing what methods to call you're talking Object Server chillywilly chillywilly: you are right... and we could use IDL for that you need to define it in a description don't you? BUT I think each service can be done in whatever language it wants. There just needs to be a common structure for the xml-rpc/soap calls sigh name the methods and arguments, then spec each rpc layer, passing the info to whatever lies beneath is no problem then we don't want to be tied to object-level languages Seek3r: i still think we are miles past each other on this jcater: that makes noe sense I am having trouble following the discussoin. what we were discussing was sharing code directly jcater: you cann call objects ugin regular old rpc it seems that chillywilly and Milosch are talking about details of the implemtnation doesn't atter what it is ok lets stop the obejct discussion bkuhn: yes, I agree we are off page with Seek3r at this point we need to get back on same page derek: right. perhaps we should move to another channel. ok. can derek and I have the channel for a sec It seems that gnuenterprise people want to discuss details. i was understanding that nb, dyfet and gnue were agreeing sharing a library for rpc abstraction was a laudible thing the actual code please let me know if im wrong (channel is yours) derek: Im sorry, maybe being late was the problem, but I dont really follow you. I will let you explain, I will listen http://milosch.dyndns.org/phpgroupware/phpgwapi/doc/xmlrpc/phpgw_server.html http://milosch.dyndns.org/phpgroupware/phpgwapi/doc/xmlrpc/gw_interface.html OK. I guess everyone stopped at the same time gonna use this silence to take a break brb.. ;-) yeah. I will thus try to summarize what I have heard. ok time to go #gnuproject and moderate this about derek's idea. the idea is to unify on some codebase? derek: ok, let's do that. rather than on a protocol? Action: Seek3r heads of to #gnuproject Seek3r (~dankuyken@cy38126-b.coi1.ca.home.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). I have it logged in xchat thanks chillywilly np ok, i don't need to watch this other channel if i cannot speak Milosch (~milos@dsl254-035-221.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) left #gnuenterprise. hmmm Anything happening? mdean (mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) got netsplit. derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. nickr (nick@e-172-IP26.empnet.net) got netsplit. derek (~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. not here netsplit! mds (~mds@209.246.19.194) left #gnuenterprise. nickr (nick@e-172-IP26.empnet.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. nb (norbert@pop-be-2-2-dialup-159.freesurf.ch) got netsplit. ajmitch (me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) got netsplit. robk (Him@202.83.74.3) got netsplit. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) got netsplit. mcb30 (mcb30@pc1-papw2-0-cust211.cam.cable.ntl.com) got netsplit. damnit OPN is falling apart on us ye sucks to be us bkuhn (~bkuhn@host213.216.41.121.ma.110.net) left #gnuenterprise ("bye..."). robk (~Him@202.83.74.3) returned to #gnuenterprise. nb (~norbert@pop-be-2-2-dialup-159.freesurf.ch) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~me@p22-max3.dun.ihug.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. mcb30 (~mcb30@pc1-papw2-0-cust211.cam.cable.ntl.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. mcb30 (mcb30@pc1-papw2-0-cust211.cam.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds maybe just agreeing to a common broker interface and definition language who is with Bayonne in the discussion? dyfet if everyone worked on a "basic idea" of implementation they could port this implementation I tried to make that point about ours being a proof of concept but I guess that was missed I was not forcing python on anyone :) yeah why not? python is the shit :P j/k yea chillywilly: well, that is my basic philosophy these days but I still like giving ppl options :) I think all that is needed is an interface agreement and a definition agreement hehe the actual implimentation isn't relavent hmmmm you might have a point there wow, chillywilly admitted it... uh/ ? that you might be wrong ;) well I see what nickr means I'm always right. ha! Prove me wrong! you'rre very confident aren't you? Yes Action: chillywilly gets out the trout Action: chillywilly waves it around threateningly you're a poet and didn't even know it *sigh* what to do with you nickr ;) swim in the harbour with concrete shoes... sure he can do that heh hehe Freeprojects.net already registered whois freeprojects.net esynapse I would have to change my servers list to use the better name ;) irc.gnu.org is probably available :) I would think so :) FreeIRCNetwork.net zaheer (zaheer@host217-34-239-232.in-addr.btopenworld.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" ok, I guess the discussion has ended yomammanet.net Actually, it's pretty much moved to #gnuproject to sort out some other stuff yeah but now we're discussing irc networks :) nickr: hehe I like that one #YoMammaSoFat Maniac (darryl@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 182 seconds yomammadotorgnetwork.com Maniac (~darryl@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hehe, check out dotorg.org yay, debian! I've decided I want a different power amp :-((( sigh heh rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). nb (norbert@pop-be-2-2-dialup-159.freesurf.ch) left irc: "zZzZ" hehe FreeAsInLibre.net is available :P dyfet (dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" skeeter (~skeeter@cs666916-91.satx.rr.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). robk (~Him@202.83.74.3) left #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@195.239.64.75) left irc: "[x]chat" oh BTW, IT/.com of the past are being blamed for recession ;-) all the investment yea? I just saw on the nes that we have been in a recession since March I think that was from Jim Leher today news yeah there has, thats why I wasn't suprised when my roommate told me about the annoucement the .com bubble is the blame for the recession sigh well, I blame bush why? I guess ppl can blame whatever they want for this *natural* economic cycle he didn't build the .coms chillywilly: that was kinda a joke :) i blame big business getting too greedy :) no, but he's an idiot :) I blame the atmospheric crack levels mm mcrack and, it started as soon as his watch started up :) gnucrack jcater: but Gore is a genious right...I mean he invented the ineternet crack levels? internet even chillywilly: HE never said that the media said that so? chillywilly: that's nothing. bill gates invented computers and Henry Ford invented cards cars bill gates is responsible for the open source movement chillywilly: did you get the log from #gnuproject derek: yes if so can you post to your gnue website? derek: my xchat always logs and email me the url as im sure psu will ask for it :) for the KC ok away for real now :) ok I gotta run all jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-222.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "nite" chillywilly (danielb@d163.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) chillywilly (~danielb@d163.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: mdean -> mdean-[snooze] alexey (alex@techkran.vladimir.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. howdy chillywilly_ (~danielb@d106.as21.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d163.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-201190.flinthills.com) left #gnuenterprise. chillywilly_ (danielb@d106.as21.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: --- Tue Nov 27 2001