bigbrother joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" neilt (~neilt@dhcp64-134-54-175.chan.dca.wayport.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly_ (danielb@d128.as5.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds chillywilly_ (~danielb@d119.as14.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. cool merchandise ;P Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly the t-shirt image isn't large enough to really see that gnu guy does he look like uncle sam? (even after clicking on it) its 8x10 biggest they would let me use k is he uncle sam then? a gnu uncle sam that's what he looks like from what I can tell well anyway, I gotta get me some of that stuff ;) yes that what he is you can click on the image to get a better look in my browser the image is crystal clear but it is not big enough for me to tell with crystal clarity I did click it not that it matters anyway you can sorta tell he's uncle sam jbailey (~jbailey@Toronto-HSE-ppp3640119.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. hi jeff heya. Debian now has the cygwin cross-compiler. oooooo, aaaaaaaa hey what's that non-us.debian.org mirror you were mentioning? I still cannot connect to the blody thing and I don't know where the debian mirror for my isp is mirror.direct.ca:/pub/linux tnx what does your apt line look like? apt-get update no, in sources.listy sources.list deb ftp://mirror.direct.ca/pub/linux/debian-non-US unstable/non-US main contrib non-free k jeff! bad jeff! s/non-free// :) *shrug*.. You argue it with my fiancee. Just remember that she's a dancer and works out 4 hours a day. ;) she won't let you remove non-free? Yeah - for the jvm adn acroread (which works as a plugin in mozilla. I can get rid of that as soon as xpdf works that way too...) hey at least you got her using gnu/linux that's better than me Heh. I told her that she could either support her own system or move to G/L. She was developping some problems with her system, and I wasn't keeping my skills current enough to fix them (Not to mention I could do nothing about it from work) G/L? Do you know of a good Free replacement for 'unzip'? there's a free unzip isn't there? GNU/Linux. It's either that or G7x =) Dunno. I was surprised when I saw that unzip came up under 'vrms'. danielb@obfuscation:~$ dpkg -s unzip Package: unzip Status: install ok installed ... danielb@obfuscation:~$ vrms No non-free packages installed on obfuscation! rms would be proud. I dunno dude unzip (5.42-1) unstable; urgency=low * New upstream release, featuring a new BSD-like license and built-in encryption support. Moved to non-US/main. k yep that's the one I am using afaik jbailey: you maintain that canada debian mirror? nope but it is the one you use? works for me ;) better than non-us.debian.org at least Sometimes. It runs a little late for upgrades sometimes, so I have it as the primary and then http.us. as the secondar. which usd to work fine I wonder wtf happened to my isp shell account jbailey: how do you do that just list both or what? yup, in order of what you want. how does it figure out which one to use? jbailey: yup, in order of what you want. yea, but if they both work and one hasnewer packages then what? is it smart enough to know? yay i can finally update python yup it is. cool man, they don't have distutils for the newer python ugh yhes they do its in dev derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "um my gnue tree is bigger than your gnue tree" oh ya I forgot again doh! nope still bitched at me Action: chillywilly votes for autoconf/automke ;P danielb@obfuscation:~/src/cvs/gnue/common$ dpkg -L python-dev /usr/share /usr/share/doc /usr/share/doc/python-dev /usr/share/doc/python-dev/copyright /usr/share/doc/python-dev/README.Debian /usr/share/doc/python-dev/changelog.Debian.gz doesn't look like that package has got much of anything in it feh! hmmm python2.1-dev has got disutils in there fack dh doh they messed with my symlink again' bastards ;) fack? Is that a cross between 'fuck' and 'ack'? =) yep ;P dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds dsmith (~dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hmmmm jcater (~jason@24.92.70.201) joined #gnuenterprise. howdy all psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@24.92.70.201) left irc: "bbian" psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. doowap jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. skeeter (skeeter@cs666916-91.satx.rr.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip210.albany.thebiz.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.239) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 181 seconds chillywilly (danielb@d119.as14.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: chillywilly (~danielb@d119.as14.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: chillywilly kick bigbrother in the nuts anyone home? jbailey (~jbailey@Toronto-HSE-ppp3640119.sympatico.ca) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). heeeeellllloooooo! this is the captain come in gnu enterprise Action: chillywilly needs python/forms/designer experts how do you build common form setup.py to run out of cvs? ./setup.py devel does not work hey guys hi you don't :( ok the setup.py devel from forms or designer auto link to common guess I will install it oh yea except for config dir stuff you have iot install common right? have to no you dont need to install it what then? k well I know I did this before ;) er, built this stuff before I have a shitty memory just run setup.py devel in the forms dir ok and in the developer dir i let it install the symlinks in /usr/local/bin then try typing gfdes and see if deigner comes up what si the developer dir? s/si/is ifdeveloper = designer s/if// what doi you let instal symlinks? setup.py devel hmmm danielb@obfuscation:~/src/cvs/gnue/forms$ ./setup.py devel Creating client/gfcvs is that normal? psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. yes that is what /usr/local/bin/gfcvs will symlink too the thing expects one developer per machine :( probably ought to move that symlink to ~/bin and make developers keep that in their path it's also remove the need for root password to install symlink :) i'll add that feature after I finish my homework (it'll be a while :( jamest: that's actually something I was working on this morning :) argh! i can never win :) sorruy I can quit if you're wanting it but I needed it at work i don't want it now that we are about ot use it in production :) was thinking it be an easy to add feature but it'd be nicer than the /usr/local/bin thing hi all KC 5 has gone to Zack (one and a bit days late) Time to start on KC 6 Given the problems with big brother the logs on the website appear incomplete (well, 30 Nov appears incomplete, 1 Dec missing altogther, 2nd Dec missing start) I know several of you do logging yourselves does anyone have a reasonably full log for these days they could send me? Looks as if bb is OK now so no problems for rest of week hopefully there is another log from gnuebot did you check gnuebot's logs? http://irc-logs.gnue.org/log/old/ Action: chillywilly has xchat logs they may be a bit incomplete too though k()()l I was trying irc-logs.gnue.org as a backup but this just gives a msg Logs off-line pending updates to system. Please join us at irc.gnue.org #gnuenterprise for discussions on GNU Enterprise. but everything I need seems to be in the dir you specified thanx gah 1st Dec is 157k hmm probably mostly netsplits ;) Are both bb and gnuebot on same time zone? And what is it? hmm EST/CST or good ol' GMT? I think bb is CST (May make a diff if they are on diff time zones - not sure about gnuebot Monday for bb may be Tue for gnuebot or vice versa Also, is it OK to hyperlink to the gnubot logs where the bb ones don't exist or are we trying to keep traffic off irc-logs.gnue.org? I dunno not critical really dunno how many people follow the hyperlinks from the KC back to the source logs hi all in the US the greates time difference is 2 or 3 hours so it can't be that bad if we are serious about being an international project, maybe we should use Universal Time for all project purposes ;-) of course, that would be *highly* convenient for me no, use NZ time ;) UTC +0000 or UTC +0100 UTC is fine am not biased but the bits do run on US servers bots was just stating that it shouldn't be that big of a difference between them Use Hawaii time, and you get longer hmm neilt (neilt@dhcp64-134-54-175.chan.dca.wayport.net) left irc: "later all" to make your release date targets nah, NZ time it is :) Maybe that's why M$ are based in Seattle Action: Isomer is with ajmitch :) An extra 3 hours to meet shipping deadlines compared to an East coast company cw - I am being (mostly) ironic about UTC but then I do spell localisation with an 's' ;-) psu: yes, the normal way derek (~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi derek hi derek ello deke hello all The Queen's official website has just shifted back from Apache to IIS http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-12-02-001-20-NW-DP why pretell? psu: whatever for? well, it's simple Dunno. I know there has been some changes in the govt's use of internet the politically correct thing to do is to be in touch with your people chillywilly: cos the UK government has just about sold out to MS :) yeah like m$ said remember that contract you signed in blood and if your people are getting Code Red we own you : basically the old CCTA has been replaced by UK online so should Royalty :) so possibly related to a change in ISP UK govt was seriously looking at Passport boycott the monopolist!!!!! for e-Government IIRC psu: oh man i don't know why the UK wants to be tied down to US company I don't know why anyone would wnat to be locked into any "company" or locked into anything in general of course, it's easy for us to see the "locked in" aspect not everyone does i.e., most don't actually, most ppl don't until they've been bitten by the "locked into a vendor" approach at least, that's MHO hinsight is always 20/20 hindsight yip agree take me three years ago, I proudly carried the Oracle flag I bragged about being an Oracle site doh! dealing with small company here, and their #1 request in new vendor is they want more 'control' then I got bit :) derek: ;) they dont unerstand the only way to get it is to roll your own or get free software but they will soon find out :) GPL is perfect for those situations imho see the thing is vendors arent dumb either jcater: what did they bite you with? or jsut keep it internal they make you feel special its kind of like a marriage chillywilly: well, the GPL is a lock-in too up front the relationship is great of course, as it reaches critical mass the get you all wwarm and fuzzy it's a good lock-in to be in Isomer: we used their old SQL*Forms and Reports (text based) development tools generally its not for a year or two, when you are on some upgrade/support holding pattern that it gets bad then they dropped support for them then they usually bite you in one of two ways and later database upgrades broke real support for them so we were stuck a. upgrade or lose support (this is how jcater got bit iirc) hence, why I'm w/GNUe now :) with some vendors hmm, talking to someone that used oracle forms, they complained that they moved the file format to binary, so suddenly they couldn't use sed/grep or proper version control etc too the threat to w/draw support might well get reaction "you call that support?" b. you need critical feature abc to compete in your vertical space and teh vendor says maybe in 5 years or says it will cost more than you paid for the soft4ware those are usually the two MAJOR lockin issues that kill companies both of which are nulled with free software as in a and b you are always free to procure a software developer to remedy the situation :) so this is why gnue forms competes with oracle forms? ;) the other less common one i have seen is c. they just get worse and worse about support and upgrades to point service is so bad no one wants to stay i can see microsoft doing all these now ajmitch: absolutely :) a. anything other than win2k winXP not supported with c. this then provides an opportunity for another vendor b. oh you want vendor X that isnt our bitch to work on our stuff, go fish to do a special conversion rapid deployment and lock you in again ;-) c. call the 1800-gotohell line if you have problems psu: absolutely ::) in fact the little fish i was speaking of are at item c. and are 'shopping' for something new I notice Oracle have a kit to convert people from mysql to (or back to) Oracle and i assume will fall just as you state, prey to another vendor, unless i get there first :) Action: psu wonders if Oracle will ever have a GNUe conversion kit then we know we will have hit the big time ;-) i assume they have the mysql kit psu: I wanna see them convert python to powerbuilder on the fly :) as most peopple choose mysql not understanding its a piece of crap then when they are stuck they want the big boy 'oracle' so economically it makes sense to oracle i doubt VERY seriously many people shopping for oracle are looking at mysql as a viable alternative postgres possibly but mysql no way :) derek: you're funny at least thats MHO http://www.mysql.com/news/article-57.html mysql competes well with CSV, and thats about it Isomer i dont know csv, might have some additional features :) I suspect the main driver was the e-commerce side use mysql to hack together a quick & dirty site then start getting the FUD and head to Oracle they should head to postgres unfortunately, postgres still isn't oracle :( psu agree no its not but it's getting there :) but it seems to get better i would say for most 'small/mid size' companies its close enough if an e-commerce site could run on mysql, i'm sure postgres would be a big step up ;) i.e. the cost difference doesnt justify the missing feature set Of course, sensible development tools don't tie you to one db anyway... have I got that right yet? psu: ideally, at least :) psu yeah thats why you should have to you use gnue :) exactly except if they're made by the same company, like oracle ;) so jcater you but some of those hot new boxers to support gnue? I'm gonna, I think :) i'd probably get a hat or tshirt, i think ;) well im supposed to be baby sitting well if we get more than 20 orders i think in a month we get a much wider profit margin i.e. more of your money will go to support gnue are the boxers free as in speech or open as in source? hmm at work, we do the support game people have OSS that needs "fixing" so we fix it for 'em :) Action: psu has been on support from both sides It's hell, from either side as a client, biggest problem is that I call support as a last resort so have already checked the first 20 things they want me to do but there's no point arguing since (from the other side) I know a significant amount of support stuff can be resolved by RTFM If you already have RTFM, they won't believe you "If you can't tell me what a "MX record" is, please refer me to someone that does" "If you won't listen to me, maybe you'll listen to this shotgun" rofl anyway time to go ok lol ajmitch: that's called Redneck Pre-Marriage Counseling hehe the easiest ones to support were the ones who didn't know what they were doing & just followed instructions. The ones who knew a little were dangerous - would press enter before you finished telling them to ROLLBACK psu: absolutely but I sympathised we had an old manager at our callcenter she was great as it was the sorta thing I would do from the other side I'd tell her to type something and nothing would happen and I'd realize, I forgot to tell her to press "enter"