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<Mr_You> damn, check out freshnews.org ;-)
<ajmitch> oh?
<ajmitch> what about it?
<Mr_You> I've never heard of it.. its a site with headlines of a bunch of sites
<Mr_You> all on one page, looks like you can customize it somehow
<Mr_You> damn thats killer heh, hafta use this now
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<Yurik> re
<Mr_You> hi, I'm hittin the sack "early" night
Action: Mr_You &
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<ajmitch> hi ra3vat
<ra3vat> hello aj
<ajmitch> how's things going?
<ra3vat> tired being on dialup :( need to switch off very soon
<ajmitch> yeah, dialup is a real pain
<ra3vat> bbl
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<jamest> reinhard: you here?
<ajmitch> morning jamest
<reinhard> jamest: barely
<jamest> geas requests :)
<jamest>    doesn't seem to do anything anymore, i tried --enable-modules=gmodule and it still wanted python stuff
<jamest> ???
<jamest> it cut the start of my line
<jamest>   --enable-modules doesn't seem to do anything anymore, i tried --enable-modules=gmodule and it still wanted python stuff
<reinhard> no problem
<jamest>   would it be possible not to hard code the python-orbit shared lib in the config file
<reinhard> per default both types of modules are enabled
<reinhard> you can give --disable-python-methods
<jamest> i didn't notice in configure --help what any defaults were set to
<jamest> so I winged it
<jamest>   alot of the examples don't work, some segfault
<jamest>   I don't know if it's cause it needs a differnt class/method dir setting
<reinhard> sorry on phone with customer and in modem at another customer
Action: reinhard is not very good at multitasking :(
<jamest>   as there is packages and exmaples both in geas.conf
<jamest> with packages commented out
<jamest> it seems odd that the command line args have to be in a specific order
<jamest> geas-server -d 10 -c geas.conf 
<jamest> fails with a -c must be first
<jamest> the need to have access to the .ior file on the system is going to become an issue in the future I'm sure
<jamest> we can deal w/ this (i think) on the client end by allowing access via a URL
<jamest> however this would require some type of http/ftp/etc server on the geas server which is overkill
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> ***********************************
<jamest>  /cvs on subversions is being retired
<jamest> ***********************************
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<jamest> it now needs to be /cvsroot
<jamest> ***********************************
<reinhard> if they would retire my phone i would be much happier
Nick change: dres__ -> dres
<jamest> :)
<jamest> argh! the cvs link on the site is broken
<jamest> people will need to update their cvs trees
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<reinhard> pfffffffff
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<reinhard> finally finished my most urgent phone calls
<jamest> ?
<reinhard> jamest: re defaults for methods in configure
<reinhard> default is that all methods variants are included where configure finds the appropriate libraries
<reinhard> so if configure finds glib it compiles glib methods by default
<reinhard> and if configure finds python it compiles python methods by default
<reinhard> where the python check in configure must be improved heavily
<jamest> so we should dump the --enable-methods then ?
<reinhard> there is no --enable-methods
<reinhard> there is only
<reinhard>   --enable-c-methods      support methods written in C
<reinhard>   --enable-python-methods support methods written in Python
<reinhard> maybe you didn't re-autogen.sh?
<reinhard> most of the examples are not maintained (the only one really maintained is addrbook)
<reinhard> they are not included in distributions
<reinhard> only addrbook sample is included in distro
<reinhard> we decided to keep others in cvs cause we might want to update them someday
<reinhard> for addrbook sample you need to point the directories in geas.conf to examples directory
<reinhard> re cmd line arguments i agree 100% that the order of options should not matter
<reinhard> however it is documented somewhere iirc that -c argument must be first because other arguments can override values of the config file
<reinhard> but still i agree this must be fixed and it is in the TODO :)
<reinhard> re access to the ior file i agree this must be solved but i don't know enough about corba to know how it could be solved
<reinhard> my understanding is that oaf is a method of solving this but oaf seems a gnome-ism
<reinhard> i guess this issues is something gnu-rpc (sp?) will solve :)
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> ok meanwhile i got 2 more phone calls to answer :(
<reinhard> three
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<jbailey> quick, someone phone reinhard...
<jbailey> Do I hear 4?
<jbailey> =)
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<derek>  jamest: please post a story to gnuenterprise.org about cvs so people know
<derek> that cvs has changed and we must update
<derek> please email jade if necessary to change the mirror lxr, bonsai and friends
<ajmitch> users need to do much?
<derek> the ior file is because we dont have some naming service i believe
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<derek> i do NOT think up front that gnu-rpc will tackle this
<derek> gnu-rpc is going to be a 'keep it simple stupid' up front
<derek> i assume most rpc mechanisms will have a similar issue so its bound to work its way into gnu-rpc just not up front :)
<derek> must run
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<reinhard> back again
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Action: jbailey is away: phone
<reinhard> jbailey: :P
<reinhard> ;)
Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:06:15)
<jbailey> I forget that it sends that to even channels I'm lurking in =)
<ajmitch> heh
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<ajmitch> hi dneighbo
<reinhard> you might be interested in this:
<reinhard> the fsf europe has started a campaign "we speak about free software"
<reinhard> where they place arguments that the introduction of the term "open source" was a failed experiment
<ajmitch> sounds interesting
<reinhard> and that one should use the term "free software" instead
<reinhard> people and companies can support that campaign by putting their name under the article
<reinhard> on the fsfe homepage
<reinhard> like bytewise did :)
<ajmitch> and for those not in europe? ;)
<reinhard> and another one who supported the campaing by demanding they put his name under the article was
<reinhard> bruce perens
<reinhard> (i consider this quite remarkable)
<dneighbo> bruce left the opensource camp a while back
<dneighbo> i think he threw in the towel because he was 'gone' (wife having baby or something) and ESR approved the Apple license
<dneighbo> and thats when he lost it
<dneighbo> and has never been quite the same about OSI
<dneighbo> incompentent people should be tortured
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<nickr> here here
<jbailey> nickr: proposing that you're incompentant, or perhaps you meant 'hear, hear' =)
<ajmitch> interesting, i got treecc & pnet packages to work
<jbailey> ajmitch: You sound surprised... ;)
<ajmitch> jbailey: i am :)
<nickr> haha
<nickr> probab/ly both
<nickr> torture me! torture me!
<ajmitch> i'm not willing to step up to python packages yet tho ;)
<jbailey> nickr: There are web pages for people like you...
<nickr> heh
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#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:03:28)
<neilt> hello all
<jcater> hello
<neilt> is anyone here using any help desk software?
<neilt> or can recommend same
<dneighbo> DCL
[12:52] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<dneighbo> did i mention
<dneighbo> DCL
<dneighbo> :)
<jcater> is dcl "help desk" tho?
<dneighbo> its much more than help desk
<dneighbo> yeah the 'tickets' are like a help desk
<neilt> wtf is dcl
<neilt> oh i remember decent command language :)
<nickr> DCL does help desk?
<nickr> heh
<neilt> ok found it
<neilt> dneighbo: does it work for help deks
<neilt> desk
<neilt> and is anyone using it
<nickr> it doesn't seem to me that the interface is very helpdeskish
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<dneighbo> dcl.sourceforge.net
<dneighbo> i use it at work and so does jcater
<dneighbo> i use it double duty
<dneighbo> i use the tickets for 'help desk'
<dneighbo> and i use the workorders for project management of programmers and way to communicate to upper managemetn what is on our plate
<dneighbo> there are some short comings but for the most part its the best free thing i have found and its migrating to gnue :)
<dneighbo> mdean is in here regularly (the maintainer) which  is a big plus :)
Nick change: jbaileyMsgMe -> jbailey
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<neilt> dneighbo: so tech'ys use it, how about users to report problems?
<neilt> the screen shots dont look very user friendly
<Mr_You> hi
<Mr_You> I'd like to volunteer to create some of these apps when the data definitions have been decided on
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<Mr_You> DCL is the best, currently supported, free helpdesk solution
<neilt> what i dont see is a nice simple screen for users to request support
<neilt> does dcl have an irc channel
<Mr_You> a public screen I guess you mean
<Mr_You> yup
<neilt> yes
<jcater> #dcl
<neilt> both people are here also
<Mr_You> well it would be cool if one day it didn't need a public screen cause it used a centralized login management system ;-))
<Mr_You> speaking of, compared to the PITA that LDAP is, I wonder if NIS will still be the prefered method for unix boxes
<psu> hi all
<Mr_You> hiya pete
<psu> is the info@gnue.org address broken?
Action: Mr_You goes to check if his name is spelled right ;-)
<psu> I sent something to it about 1.5 days ago & no response
<psu> Mr_You - I got it right this time
<Mr_You> ahh thanks ;-)
<psu> Will be resubmitting #4 soon 
<psu> KC is great from that point of view
<Mr_You> ehh not a big deal if thats the only issue with #4
<psu> I get a chance to rewrite history & remove my istakes
<psu> mistakes, even
<psu> Mr_You - I'm actually more fussy 
<psu> simply because it affects Zack's index pages 
<psu> See both http://kt.zork.net/people/Charles_Rouzer.html and http://kt.zork.net/people/Charles_Rozner.html
<psu> I need to get rid of your evil twin ;-)
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<Mr_You> oh
<Mr_You> hehe
<Mr_You> ok got stuff to do.. bbl
Action: Mr_You &
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<mpav> How can i check the status of a running process in C?
<mpav> wrong window.. sorry.
<dneighbo> crap neilt left :(
<dneighbo> neilt if you read the log there are a few ways they can sumbit items
<dneighbo> 1. view ticket, which is pretty simple like 5 fields
<dneighbo> 2. email, they email an address and ticket is created automagically
<dneighbo> 3. you could VERY easily write a custom screen that is variation of #1 only by login defaults like all but 2 or 3 of the fields.
<dneighbo> psu : the info works fine :)
<dneighbo> we are just lazy at responding
<dneighbo> in my case i read mail at work and try to not respond until at home where i have time to think about it and can have the outgiong mail saved in my sent folder that is my main (time for imap) 
<dneighbo> i will try to reply tonight
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<psu> fair enough
<psu> it's just I hadn't had a reply even from Zack
<psu> so I assumed it worked like a modded mail list
<psu> apologies for the resend
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
Action: chillywilly sees nothing wrong in using oaf to find corba object in geas....but of course that will tie you to corba
<chillywilly> also oaf only depends on glibc, glib, orbit, and popt
<chillywilly> also bonobo activation is the newest thing for locagin and activating corba objects iirc
<chillywilly> btw, Gnome libs in 2.0 are much better and should be devoid of X dependencies...and there has been a couple developers releases....sure would be nice to use GObject
<Isomer> whats oaf?
<chillywilly> object activation framework
<chillywilly> Isomer: the bonobo tutorials that Michael Meeks did cover it I think
<Isomer> ah
Action: Isomer reads these things regularly and then forget about them
<chillywilly> oh I got it wrong I think
<chillywilly>  Source Package: oaf
<chillywilly>   [+] Depends
<chillywilly>     [-] libc6 (>= 2.2.4-4)
<chillywilly>     [-] libglib1.2 (>= 1.2.0)
<chillywilly>     [-] liboaf0 (>= 0.6.7)
<chillywilly>     [-] liborbit0 (>= 0.5.12)
<chillywilly>     [-] libpopt0 (>= 1.6.2-1)
<chillywilly>     [-] libwrap0
<chillywilly>     [-] libxml1 (>= 1:1.8.14-3)
<chillywilly> a few more dependencies
<chillywilly> sorta anyway
Action: chillywilly thinks gnome is turning into a good development platform (at leats the 2.0 stuff is pretty cool)
<chillywilly> http://www.object-relational.com/articles/c++_and_object-relational_mapping.html
<chillywilly> that looks cool
<chillywilly> odmg stuff
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<nickr> it is an oaf
<chillywilly> uh?
<chillywilly> what's an oaf?
<chillywilly> oaf is an oaf?
<nickr> object activation framework
<jcater> oaf -- (n) a dim-witted person.
<nickr> I just findh that acronym dumorous
Action: chillywilly bites his tongue
<chillywilly> jcater: plz don't leave yourself so wide open...it i s very hard to resist
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> well, I left off the rest
<jcater> the rest was...
<jcater>     cf., chilly
Action: chillywilly comes out the better man in the long run
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> jcater: you will now be reniced
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> fwiw: i wouldnt use oaf when corba has its own standard :)
<dneighbo> why pick up ugly dependencies :)
<dneighbo> but anyhow....
<Remosi> As everyone knows, programs should have as many varied dependancies as possible
<psu> dependancies are nature's way of telling you 
<psu> to use debian
<psu> apt-get
<Remosi> precisely :)
<dneighbo> Remosi dependencies are good, it means code reuse, but some dependencies just dont make a ton of sense
<dneighbo> its not the number of dependencies its whats in them
<chillywilly> oh shit
Action: chillywilly almost lost a bunch of source code with a stupid rm command
<chillywilly> eeek
<dneighbo> say i write something that has (foo, bar, sum) in it where each of those is pretty different things
<dneighbo> now i write application doofy and i need foo
<dneighbo> if i use that dependency i pick up bar and sum UNECESSARILY
<jcater> chillywilly: but, that's ok.. cause you have a backup of everythng... right?
<chillywilly> jcater: ummm, no
<chillywilly> ;o
<dneighbo> it would be better if foo was made its own package
<dneighbo> anyhow
<chillywilly> jcater: looks like I am ok
<chillywilly> whew!
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<chillywilly> yes, dneighbo corba has its own object locaotr thingy
<chillywilly> corba://gnue.org...a ruls like that or something
<chillywilly> url
Action: chillywilly checks in the code in his cvs repository so now he will have a backup ;)
<Remosi> heh
<Remosi> cvs
<Remosi> the programmers backup!
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<chillywilly> man the jdo spec is friggin long
<dneighbo> whooo hooo my boss just sent like 5 good bug reports for dcl :)
<Remosi> cool
<jamest> dneighbo: well, you better fix them and submit a patch to dcl maintainers
<chillywilly> right away
<chillywilly> get to work!
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> thats why im happy
<dneighbo> i can get PAID to do it :)
<chillywilly> kewl
<dneighbo> plus its great as we interface with exchange
<chillywilly> lucky bastard
<dneighbo> and its gone down every day :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> nobody notices here, but dcl is very plain in pointing out
<dneighbo> listen jackass i cant send mail if your server is down :)
<dneighbo> so people here are 'realizing' that exchange is problematic
<chillywilly> use gnu/linux ;)
<dneighbo> when before they thought things were 'kosher'
<chillywilly> exchange sucks nuts
<dneighbo> my boss requested we setup our own mail server here :)
<dneighbo> to prevent having this issue :)
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> what you going to use?
Action: chillywilly sometimes wonders if masta just likes ot hear himself talk...
<jamest> chillywilly: masta = sado masochist = sendmail
<chillywilly> ack
<jamest> he'll find some poor techie to maintain it
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> use exim or postfix dude
<chillywilly> sendmail is a bitch
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<jamest> wow
<Remosi> wow?
<jamest> goner virus hit ksu
<jamest> they blocked the main campus mail server and from that announcement....
<jamest> "within 60 seconds of applying the block, there were 10 copies nuked."
<jcater> goner virus?
<jamest> hip
<Remosi> jcater: new doze virus
<jamest> i think /. is covering it
<jamest> yip on /.
<Remosi> sigh
<Remosi> As much as the people writing the code for OE deserve it, the sheer number of virii is starting to get irritating
<jcater> I'd say there's more to it than MS programmers
<jcater> it's a general attitude
<jcater> MS only makes stuff as "convenient" as ppl want
<Remosi> True
<jcater> NOT that I'm defending them :)
<Remosi> yes, but MS should be taking what people want and adding security to it :P
Action: Remosi ponders if Ximian falls into the same trap
<chillywilly> Ximian is something else...
<chillywilly> 2 words
<chillywilly> sell out
<mpav> chillywilly: how?
<chillywilly> well they have this nice proprietary product than work with M$ exhange servers that they are peddling
<mpav> yeah.. and how is that selling out?
<Remosi> yeah, and that is hidious :P
<chillywilly> you should be abel to catch the article on linuxtoday
<mpav> so how should Ximian make money?
<chillywilly> how does anyone make money?
<mpav> they have a clean model..
<mpav> however, their pricing sux..
<chillywilly> closing the code can make you lots of money, but I don't condone that behavior
<mpav> they only have 1 proprietary piece
<chillywilly> selling drugs can make me a lot of money too
<chillywilly> but I don't think it is right
<mpav> you say that, but how many successful companies have you founded that have made money w/ a full open source approach?
<chillywilly> why do they need to deny ppl the freedom with that one piece and do you possibly think it is going to stop there?
<Remosi> hmm
<Remosi> one of the most hidious parts about them keeping that code closed
<Remosi> is that I can't find out how the calendaring code works
<Remosi> so I can't reimplement the calendar server
<mpav> MAPI is a closed protocol
<chillywilly> just becaus eit hasn been done doesn;t mean it can
<mpav> Sounds like Ximian licensed from microsfo
<chillywilly> and I am talking about Free Software
<chillywilly> not Open Source
<Remosi> mpav: right.  and Ximian said that MS isn't forcing them to keep the software closed
<mpav> chillywilly: correct, however my point is that you have a very narrow view of the situation.. having never made money with free softwaer
<mpav> Remosi: really?  
<mpav> Remosi: thats beside the point..
<chillywilly> mpav: how do you know what I have done?
<mpav> chillywilly: i asked you if you have had a successful company and you said "no"
<chillywilly> we have some ppl here who plan to use GNUe to make a living
<chillywilly> I haven't started mine yet ;)
Action: Remosi works at a company that uses OSS to make $money$ mostly doing support 'n stuff
<chillywilly> mpav: the money argument is weak and has been proven to be crap
<mpav> chillywilly: in case you haven't noticed, money is all that matters
Action: Remosi ponders what happens when Ximian go out of business
<chillywilly> mpav: maybe for you
<mpav> uhm.. no the whole world, actualyl
Action: Remosi thinks that there are better ways for ximian to make money
Action: chillywilly does too
<Remosi> they're aiming for the corporate desktop
<mpav> i have had this discussion with dozens of free software developers and it just solidifies my point that a successful free software company will not be born from a free software developer
<Remosi> and corporates love spending money :)
<mpav> Corporate Desktops == BIG $$$
<chillywilly> mpav: so the independent consultant cannot earn a living from Free Software?
<nickr> its stupid and pointless to sell *software*, since it costs nothing to replicate and by extension pirate it
<mpav> i personally think Ximian's approach is stupid from the direction of Corporate IT spending/technology, etc...
<nickr> companies should sell things of value like human time
<mpav> chillywilly: that's not what i am talking about
<chillywilly> you sell services, custom sulutions, etc.
<chillywilly> support
<mpav> i am talking about a nation-wide corporate company capable of competing w/ the big software houses
<mpav> or services .. etc
<mpav> a single consultant is not capable of that kind of competition
<chillywilly> mpav: well maybe we should just give up since we have no change whatsoever
<chillywilly> chance
<chillywilly> feh!
<mpav> chillywilly: i never said that...
<Remosi> hmm
<mpav> my point is that many free software developers have a closed mind almost as much as commercial counterparts
<Remosi> I think Free Software is quite happily competing with MS at the moment
<mpav> Remosi: not even close
<Remosi> no need for a huge coporate company :)
<mpav> Corporations != Bad, as many ppl would like to think
<chillywilly> mpav: plus this sorta points the way in which we should go: http://www.freedevelopers.net
<mpav> big companies do more for the world than most credit
<Remosi> corporations are single points of failure
<chillywilly> the corpoarte structure is obsolete in the information age...we need something new
<mpav> Remosi: the Earth is a single point of failure
<chillywilly> mpav: http://www.freedevelopers.net/press/dino/
<Remosi> mpav: your right, we should diversify
<mpav> chillywilly: interesting.. i will give it a read
reinhard (rm@N816P015.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate"
<mpav> Remosi: no.. my point is you can always find a single point of failure.. lame argument
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<Mr_You> single consultants usually provide services for small businesses or consulting companies who are "outsourcing".. 
<Mr_You> at this point I don't see Free Software and M$ in *direct* competition.. EXCEPT for developers.. which Free Software is definitely winning
<Mr_You> well Free stuff has beat out M$ in the server area also
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> we just need to help win the business war ;)
<chillywilly> are you with me?!??!?!?!
<Mr_You> sure
<Mr_You> heh
<Mr_You> ;-)
Action: chillywilly should probably not be reading this JDO spec
<Mr_You> well I like the idea of GNUe because it allows the admin/maintainer to actually say "wow I can make my own software"
<chillywilly> GNUe - the VB of the business world?
<Mr_You> as businesses grow the are stuck in proprietary methods.. and the costs around it
<Mr_You> I dunno, never used VB
<chillywilly> it's drag and drop programming
<chillywilly> (if you can even call it that)
<chillywilly> "programming" may be too good of a word for it ;)
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<dneighbo> hmmm i missed most of the backlog
<dneighbo> mpav i have simple saying it goes something like
<dneighbo> 'trying to start a freesfotware company, whose model is selling software' is about as fruitful as
<dneighbo> 'selling snow to eskimos'
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<dneighbo> a successful free software company will have its revenues derive from things outside of 'selling' licenses
<chillywilly> dneighbo: what about the overall "solution"
<dneighbo> if you wanted to be more philosphical
<dneighbo> and correct
<dneighbo> i woudl ask the question
<dneighbo> is there room in freesoftware for a 'free desktop' company
<dneighbo> with that i'd say probably not
<dneighbo> not with tools like debian and OEM where going and buying someting off shelf for convience is thing of past
<jcater> oooh, oooh, oooh
Action: chillywilly strokes his debina Gnome
<chillywilly> debian even
<dneighbo> i suppose 'desktop' freesoftware houses will try to do what eazel was trying to start
<jcater> sounds like I walked in on a good conversation
<dneighbo> and that is build a revenue stream off of content
<dneighbo> and tying content to a desktop
<chillywilly> ooho debina
<chillywilly> my first gnu/linux love
<dneighbo> so like AOL ships out oodles of FREE CDS for AOL
<dneighbo> in hopes you will subscribe to their services
<dneighbo> so will free desktop companies
<chillywilly> and gets you to use their "service"
<dneighbo> give away desktops to allure you to their services
<dneighbo> i see a few modesl for free software
<dneighbo> 1. support / installation (small margin)
<chillywilly> I think ximian's redcarpet could be a revenue getter
<dneighbo> 2. consulting (#1 plus more work that is slightly larger margin)
<dneighbo> 3. loss leader (giving away the something to get something bigger)
<dneighbo> 4. tools to a service (twist of #3)
<dneighbo> ximian is trying #3 right now
<dneighbo> give away evolution
<dneighbo> in hopes people will need a connector to exchange
<dneighbo> and i assume they will write an exchange replacement that will be closed and cost money
<dneighbo> so they can say now we have all the desktops....
<dneighbo> btw: this is not new
<dneighbo> Microsoft has perfected this model mpav 
<dneighbo> have you ever PAID directly for 
<dneighbo>   - m$ media player
<dneighbo>   - m$ internet exploder
<dneighbo>   - m$ outlook express
<dneighbo> ?
<dneighbo> number 4 is the twist which AOL seems to be the master of 
<chillywilly> dneighbo: what do you thin about their prop. connecter thingy?
<dneighbo> in giving away software to get a subscription service contract
<dneighbo> chillywilly i think its hog shit
<chillywilly> dneighbo: is the onyl way to make money is to close the code?
<dneighbo> let me rephrase that
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> they can do as they like its a free country
<dneighbo> i think its a shame they took venture capital up front
<dneighbo> blew through it like water
<dneighbo> and now have to compromise their principles to fish themselves out of it
<chillywilly> are they really broke?
<dneighbo> i think you will not see a freesoftware company come out of venture capital circles
<dneighbo> the margin is TOOO small
<dneighbo> so in essence i think you could build good freesoftware companies
<chillywilly> bkuhn seems to think they spend mor emoney in a month than the FSF does in a year
<dneighbo> they just wont be turning cash hand over fist, but that is the THE POINT :)
Action: chillywilly was talking to him the other day
<dneighbo> chillywilly they do
<jcater> chillywilly: you should've seen their booth at LWE/SF
<dneighbo> i dont think they are 'broke' in sense of belly up tomorrow
<jcater> it was ridiculous
<dneighbo> i do think that if someone gives you 15million
<dneighbo> and they expect 30million back within 3 years
<chillywilly> jcater: why?
<dneighbo> and 1 year into it you only have say 7 million left
<dneighbo> you would feel pretty damn desperate
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> wuestion is
<jcater> chillywilly: well, it was an elaborate village theme
<chillywilly> should Miguel get booted fomr the FSF board? ;)
<jcater> with a hut and all :)
<dneighbo> jcater: please note that was their SECOND booth
<dneighbo> they had another one for helixcode that they threw away with name change
<dneighbo> chillywilly no
<dneighbo> let me rephrase that
<dneighbo> if he got elected in a fair election then he should be able to serve
<chillywilly> doesn't that make then look bad?
<chillywilly> at all
<dneighbo> i didnt see anything in gnome foundation that had a 'social contract' like debian does
<chillywilly> I am tlaking FSF
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<dneighbo> i.e. the charter doesnt say that 'writing prop software' excludes you
<chillywilly> not Gnome board
<dneighbo> does it make FSF look bad...
<dneighbo> yes and no
<dneighbo> technically FSF controls GNU
<dneighbo> gnome is a GNU project
<chillywilly> psu: umm plz leave this stuff out we don't want to piss ppl off
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> but this connector to my knowledge is not part of gnome nor part of GNU
<chillywilly> true...
<jbailey> dneighbo: I couldn't be.
<dneighbo> it would be like if i wrote some prop program in my spare time that wasnt part of gnue
<jbailey> +t
<dneighbo> and released as proprietary
<dneighbo> its not part of gnue or gnu...
<dneighbo> HOWEVER 
<chillywilly> dneighbo: not really though as it depends on how public it is imho
<chillywilly> wrt publicity and such
<dneighbo> i think this brings about good ideals about perception
<dneighbo> as when you read the press release
<dneighbo> its TACKED ONTO the evolution press release
<chillywilly> yep
<dneighbo> i think evolution is part of gnome with is part of GNU
<chillywilly> hmmm
<dneighbo> whcih is fine and dandny
<chillywilly> but rms is a free speech supressor!!! j/k
<dneighbo> but when you make a press release that talks of gnome (a gnu project) and then tack on a prop product as part of the pitch
<chillywilly> he wants to sontrol our speech we should be able to mention our prop. wares
<dneighbo> i think its in poor taste
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> j/k
<dneighbo> and DOES negatively reflect on teh GNU project in general
<chillywilly> yea....
<dneighbo> but 'technically' i dont think there are provisions against it
<chillywilly> well of course not
<chillywilly> I just think it is a matter of principle
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> so when you say 
<dneighbo> does miguel belong on board. (he got elected)
<jcater> dneighbo: can you "join" fsf, so to speak?
<jbailey> jcater: No, not really.
<chillywilly> not really
<dneighbo> why dont they (fsf) stop this? (they cant)
<chillywilly> they are too "corporate" in structure
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> is ximian and miguel starting to show true colors and utter tastlesness? (absolutely) 
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> jcater : not technically 
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> I knew they did as soon as they did the google/KDE thing
<nickr> bah, you've been anti-ximian from the beginning
<dneighbo> i think you can donate $$ to become a 'friend of the foundation' but thats not like 'membership'
<chillywilly> nickr: ?
<chillywilly> nickr: who?
<dneighbo> nickr : i will tell you when i got VERY suspcious (and this is of gnome in general)
<dneighbo> we were trying to use libGDA (a part of gnome)
<chillywilly> ximian != gnome
<dneighbo> i checked their files and copyright was all hosed up
<dneighbo> they didnt even know who had copyright on what
<chillywilly> gnome is mamaged poorly
<chillywilly> managed
<dneighbo> at that time they were GPL
<dneighbo> they wanted to move to LGPL
<dneighbo> miguel was ENCOURAGING THIS MOVE
<dneighbo> i got in the middle with RMS and laid cards on the table my frustratino was that MOST of gnome was under the LGPL
<chillywilly> yes well we all know how great miguel is
<dneighbo> opening up fairly large holes and that to propograte new projects under gnome do the same thing was WORSE than a qt dual license issue, because of the message it sent
<dneighbo> rms asked me to not pick on miguel, and that he would review it
Action: nickr blinks.
<nickr> you are opposed to the lgpl or am I missing something?
<dneighbo> shortly afterwards miguel and rms stopped getting along
<chillywilly> we prefer gpl
<chillywilly> of course ;)
<dneighbo> nickr: absolutely im against it if i have teh CHOICE
<nickr> Interesting.
<dneighbo> do i think its horrible license? no
<jbailey> nickr: the lgpl is weak.  It's a compromise to get part of the system freed when the only other option is that it will all be non-Free.
<dneighbo> is it acceptable? surely, so is the BSD
<dneighbo> do i think GNU projects in this day and age should license anythying other than GPL? (not without darn good reason)
<dneighbo> the original reason for the LGPL 
<dneighbo> is RMS had issues
<dneighbo> he was the ONLY one with freesoftware really
<chillywilly> GPL is critical to defedn our current position imjho
<chillywilly> imho
<dneighbo> so to get any kind of adoption or to play with anyone else
<dneighbo> he had to make certain things LGPL
<nickr> i personally prefer the lgpl.
<dneighbo> but now there is enough GPL compatiable software there is not the need anylonger
<jcater> I'm not sure of the point of the lgpl... why not go w/BSD instead
<dneighbo> i.e. to get a 'wider audience' isnt an acceptable reason to me anymore :)
<dneighbo> jcater: i agree
<chillywilly> jcater: preciselyu
<dneighbo> if you go LGPL you are about same as going 'new' BSD
<jbailey> jcater: Because the code you write itself can't be used in a commercial app.
<dneighbo> it is a little better
<dneighbo> but not much
<chillywilly> true...you can;t copy and paste but most ppl use libs anyway
<jcater> I think the distinction between BSD and LGPL is very blurred
<jbailey> chillywilly: If you distribute the library on the CD, you have to include the LGPL in your clickwrap, and make the sourcecode available.
<jbailey> chillywilly: With BSD, you just have to add a single copyright life.
<jbailey> line, rather.
<chillywilly> that's true also
<chillywilly> LGPL is a bit better then BSD
<nickr> I think my reasoning is I don't want people taking *what I did*, but I also don't want to prevent them from using it in any way that they want. Its up to them to make the moral descision to make their software Free, not me.
<jbailey> nickr: I concur with half of that.  It's up to them to make the moral decision to be Free.  But if they don't choose Free, why should they get any help from me?
<nickr> In a perfect world I'd only put things into public domain, I don't think I really like copyright in general.
<jcater> nickr: that's a very valid line of reasoning imho
<chillywilly> nickr: I like that reasoning
<nickr> Because I'm better than them and setting an example by my behavior.
<jcater> I've always thought the only true form of freedom was Public Domain
<jcater> everything else is a compromise
<chillywilly> jcater: yes that would work in a perfect world
<nickr> Indeed.
<chillywilly> obviously some ppl thought that public domain wasn't pragmatic enough
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> im an evil bastard and i do care about how others license their software
<dneighbo> and im like jbailey
<dneighbo> if they want to use my code they need to be altruistic as well
<dneighbo> i.e. im selfish
<jbailey> I'm not so sure.  Like a perfect democracy would be where everyone had a say.  But that won't work, because only activists and retired people would have the time to do it.  I like the GPL because it sais "When you join our community, we are giving.  If you're outside our community, we will ignore you."
<dneighbo> i dont mind giving it away, but if you use it i want you to give it away too :)
<jbailey> dneighbo: Like a clam!  err..  selfish, right =)
<dneighbo> so my position is i think you are free to license your works how you please
<dneighbo> but if you want to use my work you will license your work in a free manner
<chillywilly> I think freedom needs to be protected and should not be allowed to be changed on a whim...pragmatically you need restructions to have freedom...it is just funky that way
<dneighbo> in a perfect world the LGPL would be nice
<dneighbo> but the problem is this world isnt perfect and an 'honor system' doesnt work
<dneighbo> very quickly the number of people writing the free stuff would start to dwindle
<dneighbo> as the prop software houses started to pick it up and dominate
<chillywilly> as ppl horded the software ;P
<dneighbo> the GPL to me is a 'check and balance' approach
<chillywilly> this explains why there are so many bitter NSD developers ;)
<chillywilly> BSD
<chillywilly> j/k
<jcater> well, the flipside to that is the GPL is an honor system in all practicality
<jcater> until the GPL is upheld
<nickr> Yes
<dneighbo> yes it is
<nickr> all copyrigcht is
<jcater> it's nothing more than mutterings on paper
<dneighbo> well i dont buy the GPL isnt valid cause it isnt tested
<chillywilly> no oen wnats to test it
<chillywilly> not even M$
<jcater> I didn't say "isn't valid"
<dneighbo> a license that has been around for 10+ years in a hostile environment (apple, microsoft, etc) tells me there are enough teeth in it for it to be valid :)
<jbailey> chillywilly: You have to be so much more hardcore to write BSD licensed software.  I would have a bad taste in my mouth if I knew that the only reason Microsoft made it through the 90's was because they used my IP stack.
<dneighbo> but i think the truth to the honor system lies in that when i give you the code
<dneighbo> i ahve no REAL way to tell what you are doing with it
<chillywilly> jbailey: yes
<jcater> jbailey: but the flipside is that you brought networking to the masses
<jcater> it's all a matter of personal perception
<dneighbo> im putting an 'honor system' in effect that you will tell me if you are using it
<dneighbo> jcater: yes it is
<jcater> btw
<jbailey> jcater: The masses were getting networking already.  The trumpet winsock was quite popular.
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> my definition of "masses" 
<dneighbo> btw: hmmm
<dneighbo> ?
<jcater> is much largr than that
<chillywilly> better question: Has M$ done anything good for computing?
<jcater> chillywilly: absolutely
<jbailey> jcater: I used to work at an ISP.  We'd install 20 or 30 of those per day over the phone.
<dneighbo> often the reason people choose a truly 'free' license like BSD is to garner more 'acceptance'
<dneighbo> i.e. the masses
<chillywilly> yep
<dneighbo> i just say preserving freedom is more important that popularity :)
<chillywilly> exact reason the www-ng guys are BSDing their code
<dneighbo> but anyhow what was the btw:
<jcater> btw: I'll always put my stuff under the GPL
<jcater> but will always have a tremendous amount of
<dneighbo> oh good, 
<jcater> respect for the guys w/the balls to BSD or PD their stuff
Action: jcater doesn't have those balls
<dneighbo> brb: have to call guido back, he was enroute to breaking jcater's wrists
<nickr> thats why I like lgpl, only requires half the balls :)
<chillywilly> jcater: how is that having balls?
<nickr> because of the risk of 'loosing' it to somebody else.
<jcater> chillywilly: 'cause you are trusting ppl... if you use the GPL, you are "hiding" behind a list of rules
<dneighbo> because its letting someone else 'steal' your work legally
<chillywilly> jcater: if you truly believe in software freedom then those freedoms need to be the same for all don't they?
<chillywilly> jcater: that's a very shady view of things
<chillywilly> what about ppl who wish to preserve freedom?
<jcater> chillywilly: we are only talking derivatives of your personal work... not a philosophical world that doesn't exist
<jcater> i.e., personal views on copywriting your own stuff
<jcater> and we all know your view
<chillywilly> oh so I should just shutup right?
<jcater> ... now if you only produced some code, we could
<jcater> see how you licensed it
<chillywilly> grrrrr
Action: jcater ducks
<jcater> j/k
<jcater> I'm teasing
Action: chillywilly prepares to dccc jcater a tarball
<dneighbo> jcater can you tar an empty file?
<jcater> roflmao
<chillywilly> jcater: I have GNUe code under GPL you knwo
Action: dneighbo ducks too
<chillywilly> ok
<nickr> you could dd some zeros
<chillywilly> time to upload it then to my web page
<chillywilly> for all to see
<jbailey> chillywilly: nimbda? =)
<jcater> ok, can I get on my soapbox now?????
<nickr> this is my unique collection of zeros by Ann Elk (Miss)
<jbailey> I watched that attach a webserver at an ISP today, that was cool.
Action: chillywilly shoves jcater off
<jcater> <rant>
<jcater> If the free software community
<jcater> spent as much time PRODUCING free
<jcater> software as it does BITCHING about
<jcater> proprietary software, there wouldn't
<jcater> be anything to argue about
<jcater> </rant>
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> that was a mouthful
<nickr> jcater: amen brother
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> you ever really catalogue all of it and see which projects are active?
<chillywilly> I doubt it
<jbailey> jcater: The problem with that logic is that doesn't take into account the community and bonding that needs to happen.
<jcater> btw, that wasn't targeted at anyone particular, but a general overview
<chillywilly> http:///goats.gnue.org/~chillywilly/gsim-0.1.tar.gz
<jcater> jbailey: the problem with that logic is more time is spent dividing the open source and free camps than doing stuff to educate the masses
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> the bane of my existance
<nickr> mom! dad! don't touch it, its *evil*
<jcater> at least, that's my opinion
<chillywilly> plz pay particular attention to the COPYING file jc
<jcater> I have been wrong in the past
<jcater> chillywilly: wassat?
<chillywilly> got my tarball yet?
<chillywilly> punk
Action: chillywilly is putting his code where his mouth is
<nickr> chillywilly: I think he was just picking on you, not actually requesting to see your opus.
<chillywilly> I know
<jcater> jbailey: btw, I'm not picking on you
<chillywilly> but it's jc I can't let him take cheap shots at me without retaliating
<jcater> that's just my observation
<jbailey> jcater: I know, I'm good at being picked on.
<jcater> based on empirical evidence
<jcater> and we all know how good empirical evidence is
<nickr> weapons grade bolognium?
<dneighbo> ohhh its getting good and i missed it
<dneighbo> darn work...
<dneighbo> jcater: i agree with your RANT a lot
<dneighbo> but agree also with jbailey's side point
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you would you jc lover ;)
<dneighbo> i think the question is the 'sweet spot'
<dneighbo> i think people need to evangelize the benefits to grow the community, but this has to be done wisely
<dneighbo> chillywilly you made an EXCELLENT comment 
<dneighbo> have you every looked at the catalog of free software
<dneighbo> too bad most people advocating free software HAVE NOT DONE SO
Action: chillywilly has and it is really really long
<jcater> actually, I have
<dneighbo> i have sat at over 4 tradeshows and heard spouting about the enemy and a war etc
<dneighbo> to people that dont even know whats been told to them
<jcater> that's one of my main points...
<jcater> EDUCATING THE MASSES
<dneighbo> but if that same person would have been shown
<jcater> not bickering
<dneighbo> a listing of what GNU has done
<dneighbo> i think they would have been MORE impressed
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> good point
<dneighbo> example: i just found GNU Lilypond
<chillywilly> kewl ;)
<jbailey> dneighbo: lilypond is a wonderful package.
<dneighbo> i have 3 musicians who are asking me to wipe windows
<dneighbo> and install linux because of
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> gstreamer
<dneighbo> protux
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> lilypond
<chillywilly> awesome
<dneighbo> they dont give a SHIT about 'freedom' and a software 'war'
<dneighbo> they see a set of tools that i tell them are free and that i can modify to do X that it doesnt do now
<chillywilly> so you are in a way agreeing with jc
<dneighbo> and they are like but on windows that costs 800 bucks
<nickr> yea
<chillywilly> show me the code!!!
<jcater> btw, I take my own medicine...
<dneighbo> chillywilly im saying its ALL about audience
<nickr> wasn't that the opriginal intent of the whole 'opensource' thing?
<jcater> my entire office is almost all free
<nickr> appeal to practicality, rather than appeal to morality
<jcater> and my family uses free software
<nickr> the world is immoral but practical :P
<dneighbo> i told these musicians about GNU adn Free Software
<chillywilly> nickr: yes whihc is not always the greatest thing either
<jcater> nickr: there's so much truth in that
<dneighbo> but i didnt belabor it or talk business models for hourse with tehm about it
<dneighbo> cause frankly they dont care
<dneighbo> im not saying we should NOT TALK about freedom
<chillywilly> well you could point out that they can share it freely with all of their buddies
<jcater> dneighbo: IMHO, they will "discover" freedom on their own
<chillywilly> see, I think ther eis a way to get to joe user
<dneighbo> i just think that we shouldnt whine and bicker and rant to everyone possible about it :)
<jcater> you just have to help them get there
<dneighbo> in an obtuse way that totally escapes about everyone but 'developers'
<jcater> that's just like a good high school history teacher
<chillywilly> dneighbo: I don't do that either
<jcater> doesn't "teach"
<jcater> but leads
<dneighbo> i.e. the musicians i told them of the freedoms that mattered to them
<jcater> and helps you form your own opinions
<dneighbo> a. it is free to down load
<dneighbo> b. it doesnt do x that you asked for but i have the code and can make it do that for you
<dneighbo> c. you can give it to everyone else in band so your sheet music is uniform (sharing the software)
<dneighbo> i.e. i didnt spew freedoms in some 'rote' form
<dneighbo> rather i told them how free software could enhance thier expierence as a user
<dneighbo> in practical terms
<chillywilly> umm, that's th eway you have to do it
<chillywilly> relate to the ppl
<nickr> right, its an appeal to practicality
<dneighbo> i.e. i wasnt asking them to buy into the 'religion' of free software
<dneighbo> i merely told them of benefits that those freedoms was gaing them
<chillywilly> sure but what happens when a nicer prop. solution comes around?
<dneighbo> btw: i think open source was started to market
<chillywilly> it's a double edged sword
<dneighbo> where  i think it went WRONG, was that it only spoke really of economic benefits
<nickr> chillywilly: then the moral preaching won't help either.
<dneighbo> and not of any other ones
<dneighbo> i.e. bugs get stomped out quicker (money)
<dneighbo> shared development cost (money)
<dneighbo> etc etc
<jcater> ok, off the subject.. but are there any good HTML layout packages for linux (besides vi and emacs?)  Kinda like DreamWeaver??
<nickr> if you support the community it supports you (money)
<dneighbo> you mean like homesite?
<nickr> jcater: bluefish 
<jcater> dneighbo: homesite?
<nickr> its not "layout" but it has knowledge so you don't have to memorize eveything
<dneighbo> homesite is prop tool for windows but a dman good editor for html
<mdean> jcater: mozilla composer
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<jcater> adobe's homesite?
<dneighbo> nope allaire's homesite
<mdean> homesite is win32
<dneighbo> mdean yes
<jcater> dreamweaver rocks my world
Action: mdean uses homesite @ work
<jcater> but is win32 and isn't free
<dneighbo> im curious though as its written in delphi, and with kylix wonder if they would end up making a linux port?
<mdean> dreamweaver is yeeeeesh
<dneighbo> jcater: correct
<dneighbo> i was just making statement you want something 'like' homesite, not homesite itself. :) sorry for confusion
<mdean> dreamweaver may have a nice interface, but it generates some crappy html
<jcater> really?
<jcater> to me
<jcater> it's the only one that
<mdean> and don't even get me started about their javascripts...
<jcater> generates html that I can turn around and hand edit
<jcater> ah
<jcater> see I don't do javascripts and things
<jcater> those are bad things IMHO 
<jcater> :)
<mdean> bah!  javascript makes web apps behave like real apps
<mdean> that and dhtml
<chillywilly>  it also makes the web really annoying
<chillywilly> with pop up ads
Action: chillywilly disables JS
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> nickr: I think bluefish is what I'm looking for
<jcater> thanks
<mdean> Konqueror allows you to turn off window.open :-P
<chillywilly> so does galeon
<mdean> bluefish is *alot* like homesite
Action: mdean pets Konqueror...
Action: dneighbo needs to look at homesite
<dneighbo> er bluefish
<nickr> no problem
<dneighbo> does it have php support?
<nickr> hmm
<nickr> maybe.
<nickr> I don't recall
<chillywilly> mdean: does kinq astill have JS problems?
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> konq
<jcater> Bluefish has extended support for programming dynamic and interactive websites, there is for example a lot of PHP support.
<jcater> ...from the web site
<mdean> chillywilly: their JS <-> HTML object stuff needs a little work here and there
<chillywilly> mdean: and how does it compare to the moz engine?
<nickr> galeon
<mdean> chillywilly: Mozilla is much better, but it also periodically gets broken
<mdean> chillywilly: sometimes making DCL unusable
<chillywilly> mdean: stop downloading nightlies ;)
<nickr> don't upgrade so often
<chillywilly> j/k
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<mdean> chillywilly: no way d00d!  must...have...nightly.....fix.....
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<dneighbo> oops 
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> i heard lots of people like jed
Action: dneighbo remembered he had debian here :)
<jcater> the japanese editor?
<dneighbo> so im apt-getting bluefish
<chillywilly> cool
<mdean> jed and xjed
<jcater> oh rock
<jcater> I was downloading source
<nickr> emacs21 is all I use.
Action: jcater still is getting used to debian :)
Action: chillywilly already has bluefish installed
Action: mdean does too
Action: nickr thought he did
<chillywilly> bah, I'll just have ot go with front page
<dneighbo> jcater i was thinking man wonder whats its like and debating getting source, then remembered, crap debian, wonder if its there :)
<mdean> chillywilly: you just go with that....
<chillywilly> j/k
<jcater> it's not the latest release, of course
<chillywilly> ii  bluefish            0.7-1               A Gtk+ HTML editor
<chillywilly> what is the latest?
<jcater> sid?
<chillywilly> yep
<dneighbo> wow its part of open office
<mdean> 0.7
<chillywilly> jcater: we knew we would convert you sooner or later ;)
<chillywilly> j/k
<jcater> I still prefer ports
<chillywilly> now to work on mdean
<jcater> but apt-get does rock my socks
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> i need somethign like this
<dneighbo> if it has full php support
<dneighbo> with autocomplete functions etc
<dneighbo> although i do love my emacs
Action: dneighbo could get php mode i suppose
<chillywilly> dneighbo: yes, it is sucha  touhg decision
<dneighbo> but i find emacs modes to be a pain in the ass until you learn them
<mdean> dneighbo: php-mode needs a bit of tweaking
<dneighbo> emacs is unix
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> it's still no DreamWeaver
<jcater> sifg
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> i.e. hard as hell to learn, but SUPER efficient once you do
<mdean> jcater: did you try Mozilla's composer?
<dneighbo> i just dont php enough to 'fight the lernin curv'
<jcater> mdean: not yet
<mdean> not sure exactly what you're looking for in features, tho
Action: chillywilly goes to see if his buddy is online so they can play mario kart over the internet with zsnes
<dneighbo> but i do php enough that it would be productive to have something better than raw editor
<chillywilly> :P
<nickr> it'd be nice if emacs had tab completions of keywords
<dneighbo> ah explains sim.tar.gz
<jcater> mdean: is that a standard part of mozilla, or a separate package that uses mozilla?
<dneighbo> Screenshots International Mariokart
<dneighbo> SIM
<dsmith> nickr: It can do that, I just don't remember how.
<mdean> jcater: standard AFAIK
<chillywilly> dneighbo: ?
<nickr> the avrious programming modes should have this automatically
<chillywilly> dneighbo: just go ahead an unpack it then
<dneighbo> i think in debian its separate
<chillywilly> and it si gsim not sim
<chillywilly> s/si/is
<chillywilly> fewl
<chillywilly> :P
<Remosi> nickr: alt-\ IIRC
<dneighbo> maybe not
<chillywilly> gsim == gnu sim....maybe
<dneighbo> is that a package to 'simulate' one working :)
<dneighbo> if so i could use it at work
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> you can write a simulation of you working
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> with gsim
<nickr> hm, alt\ undefined.
Action: chillywilly 's bussy i splaying with linux
<chillywilly> er, buddy
<jcater> mdean: mozilla composer + bluefish will probably complete my portfolio... thanks
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> I have corrupted him
<mdean> jcater: cool
<Remosi> nickr: I'm pretty sure it was meta \, maybe meta-shift-\ ?
<Remosi> or do a an apropos on "complete"
<Maniac> anyone have a python linux editor that dorsn't puke all over tabs?
<nickr> hrm, neither seem to work
<nickr> alt-tab is a tags completion thing
<dneighbo> well suppose i should go home now
<mdean> Maniac: didn't like Kate?
<dneighbo> kate's a little thin for him
<dneighbo> i suggested he try karney
<mdean> thin?
<dneighbo> kate == kate moss (that sickly looking model) (or was at one time)
<mdean> how about idle? ;-)
<dneighbo> anyhow must run 
<dneighbo> mdean : i might pick on you later if you are around
<mdean> you-n-yer puns...
<dneighbo> boss has new hit list of items for dcl :)
<Maniac> kate blew up my tabs (maybe it can be properly configured)
<mdean> dneighbo: k - have to run to store and pick up a cdrom drive
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<dneighbo> good news is i can get paid to work on dcl bug fixes
<mdean> dneighbo: nice!
<dneighbo> just need to make sure they are things that might go into the tree or not
<mdean> Maniac: I have it set to keep tabs - worked fine in email gateway
<mdean> dneighbo: ok
<dneighbo> most are pretty straightforward not  big deal items
<dneighbo> i.e. not them requesting crazy stuff, either real bugs or things that should be there :)
<dneighbo> bbl
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Action: jcater is away: door shopping
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<Maniac> mdean tabbed an email gateway?
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Action: jcater is back (gone 01:22:32)
<chillywilly> no take it back mommy
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> plz
<chillywilly> make it stop
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<chillywilly> ah!
<dsmith> derek: Are you dneighbo?
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> same dude
<dsmith> I tell ya, the more I mess with python, the more I like it.
Action: Remosi likes python, with or without mess
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<derek> dsmith: i am i am
<derek> python rocks my socks
<derek> as chilly would say
<Remosi> heh
<chillywilly> you ppl need to get your own sayings
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch> ello all
<ajmitch> chillywilly: stop complaining
<chillywilly> ajmitch: don't make me trout whip you
<chillywilly> ok
<ajmitch> whatever
<chillywilly> I will go tot bed now
<chillywilly> night freaks
<ajmitch> night
chillywilly (danielb@d186.as7.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: 
<jamest> who added "What is GNUe?" to the site?
<derek> me
<derek> i changed the site around quite a bit
<derek> was wondering when someone would notice
<jamest> so you're the one that broke the cvs link this morning
<derek> the what is gnue was what is on all our marketing
Action: jamest looks arround to see if chillywilli dropped a trout
<derek> there was mail in the discuss list about it
Action: Remosi hands jamest a minnow, sorry, best I could do on short notice
<jamest> was this pre or post mail merge
<Mr_You> hehehe
Action: jamest minnow slaps derek
<ajmitch> hehe
<jamest> Remosi: it's just not the same
Action: Mr_You munches on some sardines.
<jamest> Remosi: thanks for the effort
<derek> there a proposed what is gnue (gnue overview)
<derek> it got into heated debate about free software
<derek> so i said would post what is in our marketing literature for now
<derek> and then we can continue discussion
<derek> jamest: not sure if i broke cvs link
<derek> its quite possible
Action: Mr_You picks up the minnow and puts mustard on it 
<jamest> anyway, pre mail merge i think i got about 1/2 the mail posted to the lists
<jamest> it that
<jamest> if that
<jamest> we might want to broden in out a bit
<jamest> broaden
<derek> its definately up for discussion
<derek> just put something that i knew fsf was ok with and that covered the basics (i.e. their PR person wrote it for us)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> who's maintaining the history page?
<derek> i never did love it much, but im not a PR person
<derek> neilt was
<derek> btw: what wwas wrong with cvs link?
<jamest> in the Developer Tools block the url was wrong 
<derek> i was thinking in addition to What is GNUe?
Action: jcater needs to be added to the history page :)
<derek> jamest: ah, that was me then, i moved stuff out of main block into developer tools
<derek> we need How Can I Help?
<derek> or something
<jamest> yes jcater needs added to hisotry page
<derek> as we get that email a LOT
<jcater> and LWE/SF probably
<derek> jcater: email the webmaster :)
<jcater>  /msg jamest did we ever pipe all the email thru derek?
<jamest> how about "What is that little plastic thing in the middle of the pizza box that prevents the box from smashing down and fusing with all the toppings"
<jamest>  /msg not yet, i dont have the lists subscribe with enough spam bots yet to make it worth my while
<jcater> I know.. I know...
<jcater> doll furniture
<derek> jcater: when did you start?
<jcater> March IIRC
<derek> and when did your call center go live (btw we REALLY need that press release)
<jcater> derek: last time I checked, the callcenter was pretty dead... try to avoid the place myself
<jamest> in about 4 months :)
<jamest> IIRC
<jcater> Dead or Alive :)
<jamest> sigh
<jcater> (preferrably alive)
<derek> so its not live?
<derek> yet
<jamest> i'm having to do new cvs checkout due to cvsroot change
<jcater> ack
<Remosi> jamest: you can sed all the CVS/Root files :P
<jamest> and it's taking forever
<jamest> i'll bbiab
<derek> no date?
<derek> well we will wait until the press release anyhow :)
<derek> ok you are on history page now
<derek> btw: i got some ideas for designer on way home
Action: derek wonders if i should just tackle them, or tell jcater about them so he can finish them before i have a chance to touch the code :)
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Action: derek nudges jcater
Action: derek slowly waves a kk glaze under jcaters nose
Action: derek calls 911 i think we have a dead body in here.....
<derek> 911 - Is he breathing?
<derek> derek: worse, he's not responding to kk glaze anymore
<derek> 911 - cornorer will be there in 30 minutes
<dsmith> derek: kk == Krispy Kreme ?
<Mr_You> hehe
<derek> yip
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<jcater> mmm
<jcater> donuts
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> I donated blood today
<jcater> and guess what the
<jcater> certificate was
<jcater> "free dozen Krispie Kreme donuts"
<jcater> :)
<Remosi> Mmmm
<Remosi> they don't give us free stuff for blood in NZ
<Remosi> just a sticker
<jcater> derek: warning, I bought a dreamcast last night
<jcater> so I might be distracted :)
<jcater> Of course, I bought it to port GNUe Forms to
<jcater> (yeah, that's it)
<Remosi> uh huh
Action: jcater pokes derek
Action: jcater pokes derek w/a bigger stick
Action: jcater takes a swing at derek w/a baseball bat
Action: Remosi hands jcater a baseball bat, here try this ;)
Action: jcater swings at derek w/2 baseball bats
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> what's that
<jcater> pizza?
<jcater> mmmm
<jcater> smell the aroma
Action: Remosi hands jcater a cattleprod
Action: jcater fans the pizza steam towards arizona
<jcater> Remosi: local companies sometimes donate certificates or something as a thankyou
<jcater> usually we get stickers too
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater 's gonna try the cattleprod here in a minute
<jcater> nah, the cattleprod isn't as tasty as the pizza
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> you ever feel like you're talking to yourself
<Remosi> yes
<Remosi> all the time
<derek> jcater: sorry feeling sick
<derek> dreamcast cool, you get for 50 bucks?
Action: derek is i think getting the illness from family 
<jcater> yes
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<jcater> must've been that bad pizza
<jcater> gotta run...
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--- Wed Dec  5 2001