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<Sacha_> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> hi
<Sacha_> ajmitch. do you have a link to what gnu people think about java? i knew there were some discussion here.
<Sacha_> ajmitch: i might also dig in the irc archives....
<ajmitch> no i don't worry
<Hatrix> hi, morning
<ajmitch> s/worry/sorry/
<ajmitch> hi Hatrix
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<Hatrix> hi ajmitch
<Hatrix> are there any debian .deb files for gnuenterprise around ;o)???
<ajmitch> there's an old one in unstable for GEAS, don't think there are for forms & designer
<Hatrix> hmm
<Hatrix> how stable are the forms and designer apps? i want to create some forms to manipulate data in a postgresql database (or mysql) but i did not find much documentation on the homepage
<reinhard> Hatrix: forms and designer should be usable for that
<reinhard> and jamest and jcater are the programmers of forms and designer and should show up here in about 3 hours or so
<reinhard> they will highly appreciate the testing you will do and i'm 100% positive they will help you in every way they can
<Hatrix> ok, then i will talk them ;o) i like the idea of the gea server, if it is easy to work with, i will implement in my projects. i tried to install it on my machine once (about 1 or 2 months ago), but i had lot's of problems with python libs on debian, libs i had installed but which was not recognized by the forms and designer apps, anyone else using debian with geas?
<reinhard> um... i am current maintainer of geas so to speak
<Sacha_> Hatrix: i had also problems with debian woody.
<reinhard> you don't need geas to use forms and designer
<reinhard> you can go either way
<reinhard> a) forms -> postgres
<reinhard> b) forms -> geas -> postgres
<reinhard> geas is not yet ready for production so i would recommend using a) for the time being
<Sacha_> Hatrix: ajmitch had no problem with debian sid, i think
<ajmitch> yeah, although i never really tested GEAS ;)
<ajmitch> it compiled fine, and forms & designer work
<Hatrix> reinhard: yes, i spoke from geas and i meant the whole thing, the app server, forms, designer and the other stuff, i thought geas is the name for that all ;o)
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> gnue is the name for all
<reinhard> geas is the app server
<Hatrix> ok *shameOnMe* *g*
<reinhard> :)
<Hatrix> ajmitch: i will try install the form and designer app again, may i contact you if i expierence problems?
<ajmitch> umm, i guess, i shoudl be around for awhile :)
<Hatrix> ok, thx all :)
<Sacha_> ajmitch: how does your download go? :) just started 100 MB over 56K
<ajmitch> Sacha_: the update?
<Sacha_> ajmitch: yes. the upgrade.
<ajmitch> hmm, i guess i finished that
<Hatrix> ajmitch: i need the pyxml modul, do you know which packet this is in in debian?
<ajmitch> hmm, i don't seem to have it
<Hatrix> ok, i have it it was python-xmlbase
<Hatrix> but the next is wxpython... where can i find this one... (i think that was the problem also the last time i tried to install)
<ajmitch> perhaps python2.1-xml ?
<ajmitch> libwxgtk2.2-python
<Hatrix> thx
<ajmitch> Hatrix: how far have you got?
<Hatrix> oh, all installed and working, i am really impressed
<ajmitch> excellent
<Hatrix> i think the problems i head was because i installed libwxgtk2.2 and not libwxgtk2.2-python... ;o)
<ajmitch> i'm going to sleep now, have fun trying it out :)
<Hatrix> thx :) good night
<ra3vat> good night ajmitch
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<jamest> damn spammers
<jamest> Subject: Conference calls are safe
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<neilt> morning all
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<jamest> morning
<ra3vat> hi all
<ra3vat> jamest: morning
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<nickr> morning
<Mr_You> morning
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<nickr> whats new?
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<Mr_You> hmm.. not much besides aikido class (martial art) ;-) 
<Mr_You> how bout you?
<nickr> I know about that akido stuff
<nickr> actually I think akido is really cool looking
<Mr_You> it is.. but I'm soooooo sore
<nickr> Hehe
<nickr> eventually you'll just be able to pin someone down with one hand
<Mr_You> hehe yeah... 
<nickr> I like those martial arts that are really fluid like taht.
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<Mr_You> yeah.. O'Sensei describes them as natural movements.
Action: nickr nodsnods.
<Mr_You> (I don't want to fill the log/this channel with aikido talk, but I like the concept of aikido of using your opponents energy and "taking over" their balance..
<jamest> tell me
<jamest> how close to taichi (taigi?) is akidio
<nickr> tai chi is more similar to kung fu
<dneighbo> i think way its sorting out
<nickr> a lot of the movements are very similar
<nickr> akido is japanese
<dneighbo> the second gnue conference is going to have a dojo showdown on the last day
<dneighbo> akido vs taekwando match 1
<dneighbo> :)
<nickr> haha
<jamest> i've been interested in adding taichi courses to my schedule but they are not available in this area
<nickr> woo, freestyle slugfest, I'm there
<Mr_You> thats impossible.. aikido is not about competition derek ;-))
<jamest> akidio was available but was very , very competitive
<jamest> at the local school
<nickr> jamest: take tai chi until you get into shape
<dneighbo> i just want to see some ass kicking :)
<nickr> jamest: then kung fu is just speeding up most of the movements.. you'll have the body balance any everything
<Mr_You> I would do a "demo" if I could heh ;-)
<dneighbo> i thought tai chi was more 'meditation'
<jamest> nickr: I'm in shape as I'm approx 10 months from blackbelt in taekwondo
<dneighbo> like an eastern 'yoga'
<Mr_You> tai chi is like yoga AFAIK
<nickr> jamest: ahh, nevermind then
<nickr> hrm, sorta
<jamest> taichi os korean isn't it?
<jamest> is?
<nickr> No
<nickr> tai chi is chinese.
<jamest> ah, well it seems we may have a non agressive akidio offering in town 
<jamest> as the old school closed from what I hear
<jamest> and I want to round out my martial arts a bit
<jamest> so was wondering if akido is still similar to taichi (as I think taichi was derived from it)
<nickr> are you sure you're not thinking of something else when you say tai chi?
<Mr_You> aikido is non-agressive art
<jamest> fluid body motion using the oponents momentum against them, focusing the body's chi
<nickr> tai chi is an excercise of smooth motions based on chinese fighting traditions iirc
<jamest> yes, it is
<nickr> tai chi is /not/ a fighting style, there is no fighting involved
<jamest> I have it can also be used as a fighting style
<jamest> which I now wonder if that is akidio
<Mr_You> ki aikido maybe
<dneighbo> tai chi is what they call 'internal martial arts' if i remember correctly
<nickr> I don't think they are related directly
<jamest> Mr_You: aikido == akido 
<jamest> ?
<Mr_You> ki aikido split off from the founders traditional teaching methods
<Mr_You> jamest: akido?  mispelling of aikido?
<jamest> that's what I'm asking
<jamest> as I find info on the web od akido and akidio
<jamest> however the local ksu club is akidio
<Mr_You> weird..
<Mr_You> I would guess to say akido is not aikido
<jamest> i think what I want is aikido then
<jamest> man, the school here sure misrepresented it
<Mr_You> check out aikidofaq.com
<Mr_You> there are a couple different styles
<nickr> I believe aikido and akido are the same thing, just different ways of saying
<jamest> as people joining taekwondo from the akidio school said it was rough
<jamest> full body padding and guys trying to out guy each other
<jamest> one of the reasons we avoided it 
<jamest> taekwondo here is very family oriented
<jamest> so my view on akidio was it = agressive throws and pain
<Mr_You> there are also differnt types of styles of dojos.. my dojo could be considered "advanced".. we have 3 classes a week and "strict" etiquette.. where as other dojos could just be classes at a university..
<Mr_You> see thats not right
<jamest> lets take this to #gnue
<jamest> :)
<Mr_You> aikido is not an aggressive MA.. full body padding is unusual as traditional aikido involves no punches or kicks
<Mr_You> ok
<dneighbo> yes i love that faq
<dneighbo> jcater: i found a quote for you and me
<dneighbo> Eat right, exercise regularly, die anyway.
<Mr_You> hehe
<nickr> haha
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Action: jcater is back (gone 01:06:08)
<jcater> dneighbo: like that quote :P
<jcater> more like
<jcater> Eat right, exercise regularly, die fit
<jcater> Eat horribly, exercise infrequently, die content
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> more donuts = happy me = more me (literally)
<jcater> heh
<jcater> you feeling better?
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> for donut in donuts:
<dneighbo>   jason.eat(donut)
<dneighbo>   jason.weight = jason.weight + 10
<dneighbo>   jason.mood = "good"
<dneighbo>   if not donut.gift then:
<dneighbo>     jason.cash = jason.cash - 1  
<jcater>  :)
<Mr_You> s/donuts/glazeddonuts/
<dneighbo> i am assuming in this that you when faced with donuts
<jcater> hehe
<dneighbo> you loop through entire box
<jcater> Mr_You: right on!
<dneighbo> i thought about making a range with jason.stuffed being the bounds or something :)
<dneighbo> anyhow
<Mr_You> so python has no sort of "end" for a for loop?
<dneighbo> Mr_You brough some good points up
<dneighbo> Mr_You can you paste in chunks of 'five' our discussion?
<dneighbo> i forgot, im on bitchx and its painful for me to :)
<Mr_You> aiight
<Mr_You> well.. 
<dneighbo> fwiw: im being abused by vb here and 
<dneighbo> If Then
<dneighbo> End If
<dneighbo> is starting to become second nature
Action: dneighbo is so upset :(
<dneighbo> on that note its pretty cool what you can make excel do with vba :)
<jcater> ah
<jcater> so
<jcater> vba == shotgun??
<jcater> (nasty, but effective?)
<Mr_You> I just mentioned the possibility of creating a group which receives "GNUe Approved"(TM) and "GNUe Official"(TM) proposals for which those developers can create software apps packaged with GNUe
<Mr_You> I imagine would be part of the standard CVS tree
<nickr> I had a chocolate cake cruller for breakfast.
<nickr> and a mocha
<dneighbo> im having two meatball hotpockets as we speak
<dneighbo> for core team:
<nickr>  mmm hot pockets.
<dneighbo> at one time we had talked about a 'proposal' process
<dneighbo> i.e. where someone submits to the core a 'proposal'
<dneighbo> the core deems it as something worth pursuing or not
<dneighbo> if worth pursuing it becaomes an 'official proposal'
<dneighbo> and goes in cvs
<dneighbo> and goes out for comments
<dneighbo> where as after x number of days or until comments are complete
<dneighbo> it becomes an 'an official document'
<dneighbo> that can start to be implemented
<dneighbo> it might not mean that its 'finished' or that 'it wont change'
<dneighbo> but rather it was proposed and no one saw critical flaws to prevent coders from starting to build it
<dneighbo> i think we need some process
<dneighbo> as Mr_You 's question was what can i start to build?
<dneighbo> i.e. what proposals are far enough along it makes sense to start making the gcd's the screens etc
<dneighbo> Mr_You looks like no one is here :)
<nickr> dneighbo: speaking of such a process, how would I submit document store's writeup for it?
<dneighbo> submit to info@gnue.org for now
<Mr_You> also, we need to also have an "upgrade solution/doc" in regards to any changes to the app.. ie database table changes, etc..
<dneighbo> Mr_You  that is a totally different can of worms :)
<dneighbo> we wont go there yet :)
<dneighbo> you are ABSOLUTELY correct
<Mr_You> yeah.. but it needs to be kept in mind
<dneighbo> but for immediate needs i think we will say
<dneighbo> use the app, you get the old fashion painful upgrade process
<dneighbo> as this stuff is all pre 1.0.0
<nickr> dneighbo
<Mr_You> yeah
<nickr> dneighbo: url or the sgml in a tar file?
<Mr_You> we should probably consider some releases as "production release" and "production upgrades" or such.. versus stable but updated 
<Mr_You> as some upgrades are less critical than others
<Mr_You> guess I'm still going too far ahead ;-)
<dneighbo> nickr preferably the sgml in tar, but if you have a url give that too
<dneighbo> reason for both
<dneighbo> a. sgml source allows us to check it in cvs and put on official site location
<dneighbo> b. html url gives some of us with sgml tools handy ability to review immediately :)
<dneighbo> s/with/without
<nickr> roger that
<Mr_You> it would be great to have a demo app ready by end of year..
<Mr_You> oh btw, I guess we'll also need to have a process by which core developers review the "finished" app
<Mr_You> you guys realize strong thurman is 99!?!?!?
<nickr> Yes
<Mr_You> you can barely understand him also :-(
<nickr> that autoresponse is wierd
<nickr> says nothing
<Mr_You> but no less of an incredible man to be going "strong" at 99
<nickr> yea, right.
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<dneighbo> jcater you here?
<dneighbo> jamest you here?
<jcater> maybe
<jcater> depends on what you need
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> can someone with cvs access grab cvs and make a .exe of designer and forms?
<jcater> oooh
<jcater> I'm not in a position to do that
<jcater> (no win machine)
<dneighbo> i dont have cvs access :( plus i dont know how to make the .exe's
<jcater> why not grab from the download page?
<dneighbo> ah crap, you have to have windows to make the .exe's
<dneighbo> jcater: iirc the download page versions designer is fouled up?
<dneighbo> am i wrong?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I'm using it inhouse
<dneighbo> let me double check
<jcater> (i.e., my guys use it exclusively at the moment :)
<dneighbo> stilll not usable by me on win95
<dneighbo> im almost 1000% positive i grabbed latest when jamest was having issues and wanted testing
<dneighbo> but when i pull up a property dialog
<dneighbo> there are no lines in teh grid
<jcater> mm
<dneighbo> and i cant select any of the items
<jcater> make the grid bigger (no scroll bar) and put on the left side of screen
<jcater> that's an issue w/wx
<jcater> not w/us
<jcater> their scrollbar doesn't work well with grids
<jcater> (known bug)
<jcater> (an obnoxious bug)
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> ok it works
<dneighbo> i just needed the 'update' to the users manual :)
<jcater> it's in BUGS 
<jcater> :)
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<dneighbo> you sure they are using this in house?
<dneighbo> i think there maybe a serious bug wrt to changing names
<dneighbo> i put three buttons on a form
<dneighbo> button1
<dneighbo> button2
<dneighbo> button3
<dneighbo> i went to button1 and changed its name and caption
<dneighbo> it changed the caption
<dneighbo> but then changed the name of button2 not button1
<dneighbo> or so it appears
<jcater> I didn't say they were happily using it...
<dneighbo> its really wild :)
<jcater> :)
<jcater> Also, I designed the Intro.gfd file using only the Win32 version
<jcater> (but obviously not the "release" version... a prerelease)
<nickr> actually  Ihad trouble with that too
<nickr> under Debian
<nickr> well, I'd try to set the name and it'd just revert back to what it was originally
<jcater> designer's event model needs looking at... I was gonna do that w/the reimplementaiton of the new UI system in forms
<jcater> (I never said designer was BugFree :)
<jcater> but we're getting there
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<nickr> thats what I figured.
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<psu> Today's Billwatch feature
<psu> Bill Gates made a speech in London today 
<dsmith> Who is Bill Gates?
<psu> to a gathering of several hundred senior National Health Service managers
<psu> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/011206/80/ckmg6.html
<psu> ds - a former software writer, of some repute I understand ;-)
<psu> Microsoft and healthcare
<psu> I'll leave you todo your own sick jokes
<dsmith> Scary, isn't it
<psu> "fatal exception" has a whole new meaning
<Isomer> hmm
<psu> etc etc
<nickr> thats as smart as the navy using windows NT
<psu> UK public sector are queuing up to sign deals with M$
<psu> which makes sense (sorta) in that they are finally leveraging their bulk-buying power
<psu> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/011206/80/ckmg6.html
<psu> with one of their large suppliers
<psu> but 
<psu> no real consideration of free (as in speech) or free (as in beer) alternatives
<dsmith> "Who *is* General Protection? and What is he doing writing to my disk?"
<nickr> unlike several other european countries
<psu> ds - UK Ministry of Defence have just signed a big M$ deal too
<psu> D'you think General Protection might get a promotion?
<psu> Poor Private Key is still in the ranks
<psu> Can' think of a computer-related Major joke at the moment
<psu> Major Release?
<nickr> Major Feature Enhancements
<psu> double-barrelled name, eh?
<psu> Bet *he* went to Sandhurst...
<psu> (UK-centric joke - can't remember the US equiv
<psu> West Point
<nickr> yea
<dsmith> dneighbo: You awake?
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<psu> time for bed, said Zebedee 
<psu> http://www.members.tripod.com/crystaltipps/roundabout/quotes.htm#zebedee quotes
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<dneighbo> jcater / jamest: in forms if you push things to the 'edge' it toys with the object on edge
<dneighbo> example if you make a form
<dneighbo> 10 x 10
<dneighbo> and place a 10 x 10 button on it
<dneighbo> the top and left of the button look fine
<dneighbo> but the bottom and the right of the button are slightly trimmed
<dneighbo> this is on win32 (dont know about linux)
<dneighbo> hmmm im seeing other big holes...damn damn damn
<dneighbo> everytime i try to start something i find big show stoppers :(
<dneighbo> will try again another day
<nickr> dragging objects is tricky
<dsmith> Anyone here know of any python modules for vCard data?
<dneighbo> um yes
<dneighbo> i think i did stumble across some the other day
<dsmith> dneighbo: Got a url handy?
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<dneighbo_> dsmith : http://www.faqts.com/knowledge_base/view.phtml/aid/4720/fid/235
<dneighbo_> there is an app that contains vcard.py which has vcard routines (supposedly)
<dsmith> dneighbo: Cool thanks!
Action: dsmith would rather be lazy
<dsmith> Bah!  The link is broken.
<dneighbo_> bumber
<dneighbo_> i would say send in an assignment
<dneighbo_> write the class and donate to gnue :)
<dneighbo_> as we will need one :)
Action: dsmith reaches for google
<jamest> 2 dneighbo's
<jamest> sigh
<dsmith> Hah! Good old google! http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/~checkout~/worldpilot/WorldPilot/vCard.py?rev=1.1.1.1&content-type=text/x-python&sortby=rev
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<dneighbo_> haha, same project just valid link eh :)
<dneighbo_> dsmith please note the crappy license on it :(
<dsmith> dneighbo_: Yeah. :(
<dsmith> Time to become unlazy I guess
<nickr> vcard doesn't look that hard to parse.
<dsmith> dneighbo_: I whipped up some code to send a name|phone|email to my nokia cell phone so it is put in the address book
<dsmith> Needs to be made into a proper module though.
<dsmith> One of the reasons I wanted at Evo addressbook data.
<dsmith> http://www.cleveland.lug.net/~dsmith/address2nokia.py
Nick change: dsmith -> dsmith[onthewayhome]
Nick change: Mr_You -> Mr_Youwisheshehadsomekkglazedd
<Mr_Youwisheshehadsomekkglazedd> heh
Nick change: Mr_Youwisheshehadsomekkglazedd -> Mr_You
<jcater> mmm
<jcater> donuts
<jcater> mmmmmmmmm
<jcater> glazed donuts
<Mr_You> its almost dinner time.. after Jim Leher
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<madlocke> hi
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<dneighbo> ello
<nickr> ahoy
<madlocke> dneighbo: just want to let you know that i am working on layout management. have to do this for diploma thesis...
<ajmitch> hi all
<madlocke> but i am doing it in a way that it won't break everything...
<madlocke> btw... i want it to work with curses too...
<madlocke> i know other things more important for you at the moment..
<madlocke> but i can't choose everytime...
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<dneighbo> madlocke : not a problem
<dneighbo> your the one doing the work :)
<dneighbo> so do what you are most interested in or need most
<madlocke> ok :)
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<dneighbo> ah man jamest came back 
<dneighbo> rofl my sister sent me one of those silly letters (you know the pass to everyone you know letters) it was about friendship and the last lines were pretty funny
<dneighbo> PS: A friend will help you move.    A really good friend will help you
<dneighbo> move a body.
<ajmitch> heh
<dneighbo> this one was funny too, reminded me of attitude most linux developers have
<dneighbo> When you are confused, ...I will use little words to explain it to
<dneighbo> your dumb ass.
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<ajmitch> hi jcater
<dneighbo> oh no, first beavis now butthead
<dneighbo> j/k
Action: dneighbo was envisioning jamest and jcater in a gnue booth with beavis and butthead apparel (ac/dc shirts) and mussy hair
<dneighbo> hhhuuuhhhhuuhhh, gnue forms kicks ass dood....
<dneighbo> hhhhuhuhhhuhh you said ass....
<ajmitch> that would be scary
<dneighbo> i just thought about it and its pretty funny as 
<dneighbo> jcater has brown hair and jamest blonde hair so they even have that down
<dneighbo> and if you have looked at the python source ..... well no comment....
<dneighbo> j/k
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<jamest> so does that make you stewert?
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> i didnt think about it, but damn it fits
<dneighbo> the short fat blonde headed guy that beavis and butthead are picking on sums it up nicely
<dneighbo> the mental image is just too funny
<jcater> howdy
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I think that analogy is bass-ackwards
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> hey what would status be on 
<dneighbo> making tabs w/in forms?
<dneighbo> making navbars optional
<dneighbo> getting menu support added
<dneighbo> new real grid support
<dneighbo> million dollar transfers nightly to my bank account
<jcater> roflmao
<dneighbo> that promising eh
<dneighbo> actually concept of navbars needs some rethinking, but thats another conversation
<dneighbo> the two big walls hitting now 
<dneighbo> a. application w/ mulitforms
<dneighbo> b. good layout
<dneighbo> a. is the request for 
<dneighbo> 1. moving navbar (so so you can do like a speedbar launcher
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> 2. adding menu support
<dneighbo> b is request for 
<dneighbo> 1. making tabs w/in forms
<dneighbo> 2. real grid support
<jamest> i don't think you'll see any changes in gnuef ui until geas driver is done
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> well that is big hold up number two :)
<dneighbo> so thats good
<dneighbo> i have no idea how you plan to handle it but will the new driver support those 'references' or whatever they are called in some fashion
<dneighbo> i.e. you have an address_class
<dneighbo> and a person_class
<dneighbo> and one of the fields of the person_class is address_class reference (or whatever they call it)
<dneighbo> and will the inheritance thing work where you have say an organization and inherit from that to make say a vendor (or whatever terms they are using)
<dneighbo> as those are the things that stopped me from implementing our propopsals a while back
<dneighbo> so i moved to writing own application outside proposals in two tier mode
<dneighbo> but hit the things i said above
<dneighbo> sadly every road i turn ends up being dead end for application development with gnue :(
<dneighbo> guess time to spend time on tools for me instead
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> wonder if you are looking at the problem wrong
<dneighbo> possibly
<jcater> and I don't mean that in 
<jcater> a negative way
<dneighbo> put it this way
<jcater> so don't take offense
<dneighbo> there are times where i coudl do it 'differently' but i dont think its as 'usable'
<dneighbo> im not taking offense believe me
<jcater> I've never had "grid" support in any fashion in my data aware forms
<dneighbo> wrt: the layout stuff
<dneighbo> grid support isnt mandatory (its not stopping me) the fake grids work :)
<dneighbo> the tab thing wont stop me, but it will make the application much more 'klunky'
<dneighbo> the geas stuff though, im dead in the water
<dneighbo> if you have suggestions there i will gladly take them
<dneighbo> but removing those features out of app building in geas and you are better off just going to two tier :)
Action: jcater will not comment on that
<dneighbo> btw: im not trying to offend either
<dneighbo> i think gnue is great and has come a LONG way
<jamest> dneighbo: geas hides the inheritance
<jamest> afaik
<jamest> so it's not relevent to forms
<dneighbo> jamest: ok, i couldnt figure out how to make forms do it
<dneighbo> but perhaps that was just hte old driver
<dneighbo> or a stupid me :)
<dneighbo> jcater will gnu rpc embedded as part of common?
<dneighbo> or will it be separate?
<jcater> um 
<jcater> part of
<jcater> as gnue-common is a python library
Action: dneighbo is wondering as long term if we want other languages and projects to use, whether it needs to be separate but then wrapped into common
<jcater> and this is part of that python library
<dneighbo> i.e. gnu-rpc be a library that gets included in common
<dneighbo> so to gnue users for all intent and purposes its part of common
<dneighbo> but for say someone else w/ different project that doesnt want to play with common, can they get just gnu-rpc
<dneighbo> not a big deal was just curious
<dneighbo> btw: have new funny joke, based on my experience with vb lately
<jcater> hmm
<dneighbo> vb has no concept of 'self' :)
<jcater> well, to me, gnue-common is an extensive python library 
<jcater> jamest may disagree :)
<jcater> but I don't think so
<jcater> i.e, nothing in gnue-common
<jcater> is specific to gnue
<dneighbo> all vb can say is 'me, me, me'
<dneighbo> hmmm...
<jcater> lol
<jamest> well
<jamest> almost nothing in common
<jcater> well, ok
<jamest> is specific to gnue
<dneighbo> my thoughts are im wondering if its worth an effort at some point to 'swig' common
<dneighbo> to make it available to C/C++ etc
<dneighbo> perl, php
<dneighbo> and then we end up with
<jamest> after you rewrite in C I'll be happy to swig it :)
<jcater> hmm
<dneighbo> gnu-rpc -- 
<jamest> otherwise we can't use swig IIRC
<dneighbo> gnu-data
<jcater> I have no problem with a multilanguage gnue-common
<jcater> BUT I"M NOT DOING IT
<dneighbo> i.e. db abstraction and rpc abstraction
<jcater> L)
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> well im thinking we agree to do it for GNU-RPC
<dneighbo> and if its all one thing
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<dneighbo> btw: i think someone wrote a 'swig' for python
Nick change: dsmith[onthewayhome] -> dsmith
<dsmith> dneighbo: yes
<madlocke> pyncurses seems to do be dead.... what lib to use for curses?
<jamest> i was thinking about the curses lib now included w/ python
<madlocke> ok
Action: Rafterman is working on stuff from the curses library
<madlocke> Rafterman: for the forms ui driver or for curses itself?
<Rafterman> this is on something completely independant from gnue actually...
<Rafterman> but the library is there and is quite usable i've found
<dneighbo> dsmith do you know the url to it?
<madlocke> ok thx
<dneighbo> i could swear i saw it, but know i will never find it
<Rafterman> although it doesn't have any built in classes for handy ui stuff that I can find
Action: dsmith looks
<Rafterman> by handy ui stuff i mean text input boxes and buttons and the like
<dsmith> http://www.swig.org/
<dneighbo> but that is swig taht goes c to python right?
<dneighbo> not python to c
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<dsmith> swig wraps c libraries so scripting languages can use them
<jcater> PyBot: what for you want?
<PyBot> to take over the world
<jcater> howdy Maniac
<dneighbo> dsmith right, im looking for other way around
<PyBot> or to just test my loggin capabilities for a short while.
<dneighbo> for tool to wrap python libraries so c can use them
<PyBot> May i stay for a bit?
<Maniac> howdee
<jcater> but of course
<jcater> :)
[19:35] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> I heard swig is nasty
<dsmith> That would be embedding a python interp in your app. right?
<dneighbo> nope
<dneighbo> well possibly
<PyBot> ok my test is complete, it seems my logging works well, thank you
<dneighbo> basically a way for make a python library usable by other languages without them having to understand anything about python
<dneighbo> like swig does for C/C++
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<dsmith> dneighbo: You will need some kind of embedded python
<dneighbo> maybe this is it
<dneighbo>  PyFront is a system for the conversion of Python modules into C extension modules.
<dsmith> dneighbo: I hear it's not that hard to do.
<dneighbo> dsmith : im talking about somethign that actually turns the python code into like a C shared library or something
<dneighbo> i.e. removing the need for python
<dneighbo> jcater / jamest comments?
<dsmith> dneighbo: Yes, this looks like it: http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings/papers/riehl/riehl.html
<dneighbo> yip thats what im looking at
<dsmith> interesting
<dneighbo> i thought i saw one that was more updated and such, but who knows, i KNEW i should have jotted down the url
<dsmith> Can't use eval I bet.
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<dneighbo> the other option i suppose would be to embed it in C
<dneighbo> and have C make the calls to python (but that introduces a lot of overhead
<dneighbo> for now its no matter
<dneighbo> python only is fine :)
<dneighbo> meets our needs :)
<dneighbo> well im off for now, might return later....
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<madlocke> jamest_: you still here?
<jamest_> yip
<madlocke> possible for html driver to require graphical browser or must lynx be supported too?
<jamest_> oooo
<jamest_> i think graphical would be ok
<madlocke> requirement of javascript ok too?
<jamest_> i think so
<madlocke> ok...
<jamest_> i see it as this is a html driver
<jamest_> if someone needs something w/o javascript or on lynx they could create a stripped down one
<madlocke> ok
<madlocke> as i was reading you are working more on other stuff, so i may need some accounts on your machines...
<madlocke> cvs etc...
<jamest_> ok
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<madlocke> ok... have to go... will be back tomorrow
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<ajmitch> hi jbailey
<jbailey> Heya ajmitch
<jbailey> ajmitch: Avoiding the question in #thug? =)
<ajmitch> jbailey: what q?
<ajmitch> oh
<jbailey> lol
Action: jcater is away: store
<jbailey> away = malloc(jcater)?
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Action: jcater is back (gone 01:03:31)
<jbailey> free(jcater)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> I'd imagine chilly would rather del(jcater) :)
<jbailey> I don't recognize the contruct.  What language?
<jcater> but python of course
<chillywilly> why would I want to delete you?
<jcater> :)
<dsmith> Well, I finally got subscribed to evolution-hackers in such a way that I can post messages!
<dsmith> Lets see what they have to say about scripting evolution with python.
<chillywilly> jcater.DoNutIV()
<chillywilly> jcater.insertDoNutIV()
<ajmitch> heh
<jcater> lol
<ajmitch> how do you fit them in an IV?
<jcater> beats a donutCatheter
<chillywilly> ajmitch: you figure it out
<jcater> ajmitch: donut holes, of course
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> :P:
<ajmitch> lol
<chillywilly> what happened to dtm?
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<jbailey> oh dear.
<jbailey> Hmm.  I wonder if long term IV patients get flavour drops to keep them from missing food.
<ajmitch> dunno
<jbailey> Or if they send Jellybellys up with Astronots(sp?)
Action: chillywilly notes it is not good that he has not seen dtm hangin here in ages and that his web site is also down
<ajmitch> btw, who's working on forms & designer debs?
<jbailey> err.. me =)
<ajmitch> oh, are you?
Action: ajmitch thought it was one of the j*'s ;)
<chillywilly> just make them use autoconf/automake ;)
<jbailey> I haven't tried getting gnue to work on my system in a couple weeks, maybe I'll try again this weekend.
<ajmitch> eh?
<chillywilly> and life will be easier right ;)
<mdean> chillywilly: I was just thinking earlier I haven't seen dtm in a while
Action: ajmitch takes crack pipe off chillywilly
<chillywilly> mdean: yea...sorta eery
<jbailey> chillywilly: I played with the automake stuff a bit, and I couldn't convince it to put some python stuff in bin. =(  I should explore that a bit more, but I figured I'd do a package of it using python-distutils first.
<chillywilly> oh
<ajmitch> why use auto* for python stuff?
<chillywilly> dunno ask jbailey
<chillywilly> can anyone get to
<chillywilly> http://mmmgood.net
<mdean> nope
<mdean> he's been down before tho
<chillywilly> freaky man
<chillywilly> oh
<ajmitch> right
<chillywilly> he just must be busy and all
<ajmitch> why is it freaky?
<mdean> he usually hangs in here, #dcl, and #phpgroupware
Action: ajmitch wonders at chillywilly's paranoia
<mdean> at a minimum
<mdean> hasn't been around for probably a couple weeks now
<ajmitch> oh, there's a dcl channel?
<chillywilly> yes and it is occupied with GNUe ppl
<chillywilly> for the most part
<ajmitch> heh
<mdean> yup
<chillywilly> last time I looked anyway
<jcater> chillywilly: yeah
<mdean> we're such buddies!
<jcater> hostile takeover :)
<jbailey> blue?
<jbailey> Oh, why autoconf?
<jbailey> A few good reasons:
Action: chillywilly notes he was talking out of his ass about python + auto*
<Maniac> #dcl has a cooler bot ;)
<jbailey> Multi-language, familiar interface to every free software programmer, highly configure, easy to arrange it to recurse into multiple projects so that you can do a single ./configure for the whole tree.
<ajmitch> chillywilly: we expect that
<chillywilly> ajmitch: well yes you have to
<chillywilly> ajmitch: would you expect anything less?
<ajmitch> from you, nope :)
<chillywilly> ok, then
<chillywilly> sheesh
<chillywilly> nothing like stating the obvious
<chillywilly> you should be trout whipped for you insolence
Action: chillywilly beats ajmitch senseless with many fishes
<ajmitch> sigh
<chillywilly> anywho
Action: chillywilly goes to get his linuxtoday fix
Action: dsmith keeps looking for trout, but can't find any
Action: jcater passes dsmith a large, smelly, week-old trout
<dsmith> Thank you jcater!
<jbailey> jcater: That brings back fond memories of salmon spawning season back home...
<jcater> ew
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<jbailey> jcater: We had a river maybe 300m from our house.. =(
<jcater> yuck
<jcater> lovely nights, eh?
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> hehe
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Action: dsmith teases his dog with his new week-old trout
<Isomer> jbailey: I live on "River Road"
<ajmitch> Isomer: by the waikato river? ;)
<jbailey> dsmith: http://www.dilbert.com/comics/getfuzzy/archive/getfuzzy-20011202.html
<jbailey> Isomer: Err.. in any particular city? =)
<Isomer> I lived on River Road in ChristChurch when we lived there, I lived on River Road in Hamilton with my parents, then went flatting a few hundred houses down the road again, on River Road
<ajmitch> hehe
<Isomer> so I've always been within a few hundred meters of the river :)
<Isomer> ajmitch: yep, by the avon in ChCh, and the Waikato in hamilton :)
<dsmith> jbailey: heh
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<ajmitch> Isomer: i used to live not far from the Clutha river
<ajmitch> there were enough trout there to satisfy chillywilly ;)
<Isomer> yeah, that would keep 'em busy
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<RageMax> could someone help me out with a little Lyx problem?
<RageMax> I need text in a table to wrap
<dsmith> RageMax: But they may not be awake.
<RageMax> heh
<RageMax> well, ill figure it out some other day
<RageMax> later
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--- Fri Dec  7 2001