[00:03] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<Isomer> psu, around?
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<psu> tis I
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<nickr> tis so
<psu> Hi Isomer
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<psu> eek
<ajmitch> hi
<psu> Google now has a 20-year news archive
<psu> hi aj
<psu> all my old posts back to 1993 are there
<psu> Never remembered posting that much...
Action: psu feels such an old-timer with young'uns like aj around
<psu> ;-)
<psu> anyway, off to earn a crust...
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<SachaS> hi ppls
<SachaS> hi reinhard
Action: SachaS should read the gnue docs
<ajmitch> hi
<SachaS> hi ajmitch
<SachaS> i just read report 6 on linuxtoday.
<SachaS> when i look at gnue as an application server i see gnue again different.
<ajmitch> ok
<SachaS> i see designer/forms as gui related things and geas as an application server
<SachaS> can you confirm this ajmitch?
<reinhard> SachaS: that is correct
<ajmitch> yes
<SachaS> and gnue-common as abstract database (whatever db is behind). is this correct?
<SachaS> should be so. ok.
<reinhard> SachaS: not quite
<reinhard> gnue-common is more like a general python library
<reinhard> it should contain not only the db abstraction but also other things
<reinhard> but yes this is a part of it
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<SachaS> hi. just got disconnected.
<SachaS> i post my text again:
<SachaS> <SachaS> ebxml lists "buying-selling a product or service" as the most common business collaboration
<SachaS> <SachaS> "buying-selling a product or service" is what most businesses do with other business.
<SachaS> <SachaS> company A supplies: wood , company B produces: furniture. So company B buys wood and company A sells wood.
<SachaS> <SachaS> now with have the most common business collaboration: "buying and selling of a product or service"
<SachaS> <SachaS> the most common business process is: ``order-fulfillment-payment''
<SachaS> <SachaS> company B orders wood. company A ships the wood. company B pays the wood
<SachaS> <SachaS> .... Business Process and Business Information Analysis Overview 1.0 at www.ebXML.org ... is the document I cite here.
<SachaS> <SachaS> ok.
<SachaS> <SachaS> i never new how someone can define such a process, because i thought they are very complex. 
<SachaS> <SachaS> then i read the "ebXML Businss Process Specification Schema Version 1.01" also at www.ebxml.org
<SachaS> ...... only the second part got pasted ....
<SachaS> sorry guys. i just start again.
<SachaS> i am studying ebXML (electronic business XML
<SachaS> so today companies already use erp systems.
<SachaS> the ebXML specifications provide a framework to get a global electronic marketplace.
<SachaS> ebXML emphasis on collaboration (inter-enterprise business -> b2b).
<SachaS> the most common collaboration is (after ebxml doc): "buying-selling of a product of service".
<SachaS> and the most common business process is: "oder-fullfillment-payment"
<SachaS> s/oder/order
<SachaS> company A is wood seller
<SachaS> company B is a furniture producer
<SachaS> company B orders some wood from it supplier company A
<SachaS> company A fullfills the oder and ships the wood
<SachaS> company B then pays the wood.
<SachaS> pretty easy and straight forward.
<SachaS> the ebXML Business Process Specification Schema Version 1.01 shows how such a business process can be modelled in UML and then converted to XML.
<SachaS> in ebXML each of these two companies will define their business processes in XML document and send this XML docuemnt to a registry.
<SachaS> the XML document is called Collaboration Protocol Profile (CPP).
<SachaS> so there are two CPP in the registry.
<SachaS> When company B does not know company A yet, company B looksup the registry.
<SachaS> In this example company B finds company A.
<SachaS> company B then downloads the CPP of company A
<SachaS> company B then creates a new XML docuemnt which is derived from the two CPP documents (CPP of company A and CPP of company B).
<SachaS> in this new XML document, called Collaboration Protocol Agreement.
<SachaS> in this new XML document the business process (which is the same for company A and company B, except that company A is the seller and company B is the buyer).
<SachaS> is defined.
<SachaS> now it comes:
<SachaS> at both sides (company A and company B) the ebXML software gets configured with this CPA XML docuemnt!
<SachaS> the ebXML software (called Business Service Interface in the ebXML docu) parses the CPA
<SachaS> and configures itself.
<SachaS> so the ebXML software knows the business process involved.
<SachaS> to recall: the business process defines the roles (buyer, seller), the documents which have to be sent (order, shipment notice, bill etc) and in which order.
<SachaS> where is gnue???
<SachaS> lets assume at company A and company B
<SachaS> what i need now is a gnue-ebxml convertor.
<SachaS> i assume, that i have gnue running as my erp system.
<SachaS> .... at company A and B
<SachaS> the ebXML software knows which documents to send BUT not what data to put into the documents.
<SachaS> the ebXML software knows that there is a field called: address, quantity, value etc. but the ebXML software does not know the content of these fields.
<SachaS> ....................
<SachaS> i think if there is a Business Process Engine within gnue (geas) where I can model business processes
<SachaS> the gnue (erp) to ebXML convertor is straight forward.
<SachaS> i hope i did not lose anybody, here , i appologies.
<ajmitch> don't worry, it'll all be in the logs :)
<SachaS> reinhard: i know there can be business objects in geas. so i guess we could get something like a business process engine.
<SachaS> reinhard: I want to investigate here and do my masters next year in this area. I cant wait to see you in february to get insight information on how to do it.
<reinhard> SachaS: I am reading although not too closely
<reinhard> i am at work actually and rather busy
<SachaS> no problem reinhard. i will see you in february and we can discuss it.
<reinhard> however i'm not sure if individual business process modeling is practical
<reinhard> my experience is that every company tries to have a single business process that is valid for all customers
<reinhard> or all vendors
<reinhard> etc.
<reinhard> not to have their own business process for every customer
<reinhard> which is what i understand ebXML would result in
<SachaS> ok. ebXML allows you do have different business process. but it wants users to re-use business proceses.
<SachaS> the idea is, that the ebXML registry is filled with COMMON business processes and that companies re-use those business processes.
<SachaS> and there are a lot of common business processes.
<SachaS> even ebXML targets Small to Medium Enterprises (SME) it looks like bigger companies will profit of ebXML first.
<SachaS> ajmitch: could you understand what i wrote?
<ajmitch> SachaS: no, because i'm not into that sort of thing
<SachaS> but you could compile geas compared to me ..... we might be a good team. lol
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> i'm looking at using GNUe in much smaller installations i think :)
<SachaS> ajmitch: after compiling it, i wanna have (or program) first is a small gnue application with some sample customers and some sample products
<SachaS> ajmitch: i will be happy when i have that first.
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> not sure how well the geas db driver works at the moment, you'll have to ask jamest when he's around
<ajmitch> if you're wanting to use forms, that is
<SachaS> ajmitch: did you try the forms?
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<ajmitch> SachaS: yes, but not with geas
<SachaS> ajmitch: with the designer you can select a db, table and the fields you want and place it in the gui?
<ajmitch> yes
<SachaS> ajmitch: ok. can you do something like this: if the user enters a value into a integer field (on the gui) multiply it by 10 before you insert it in the table?
<ajmitch> not sure, haven't played with tose things ;)
<SachaS> ajmitch: ok.
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<neilt> hello all
<SachaS> hi
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<ToyMan> hey, are you guys using transaction logs or just writing straight to the table?
<ToyMan> this just came up here at work
<ToyMan> my Access db dumped yesterday
<ToyMan> but, for inventory at least I used a transaction log
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<ToyMan> so we just had to go in and uncheck the 'applied' field
<ToyMan> and voila! all data restored
<ToyMan> not sure this would be much use in all cases
<ToyMan> but it's been totally great for the inventroy files
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<|darks|> hmmm, /me is confused
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<dneighbo> i love linux....
<dneighbo> for first time my operating system outlasted the compenents :)
<dneighbo> i installed linux on this box 16X days ago
<dneighbo> this morning i come in and power is off, i figure cleaning ladies bumped it
<dneighbo> instead found dead power supply...
<dneighbo> have hot swapable drives so in about 30 seconds have machine back up and running (moved drive from one case to another)
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> i have had components die on me before but NEVER before the operating system had at least crashed once :)
<dsmith> dneighbo: bah!  I've had more crashes from hardware than an os. But I've been running linux/freebsd for about 6 years.
<jcater> anyone know of a good backup mx provider?
<jcater> good=cheap
<jcater> :)
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<dneighbo> mx?
<jcater> mail
<jcater> dns record thingy
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<|darks|> hi, got a small question: how do i define integer fields with the designer ?!?
<jcater> there should be a "typecast" attribute
<jcater> that you can set to numeric
Action: jcater is away: food
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<|darks|> hmm and how do i change that field .. except in the gfd file ?!?
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:11:43)
<jcater> you can right-click an entry widget and select "Properties"
<jcater> which should bring up a property inspector
<|darks|> yip .. sure .. but i can't change the typecast field :P
<jcater> what OS are you running on?
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<|darks|> linux
<psu> GNU/Linux
<psu> ;-)
<|darks|> well not an embedded version :)
<psu> couldn't resist - but i ought to know better than to jump in before reading the log
<|darks|> designer 0.1.0 if that helps ...
<jcater> does the property inspector not let you change values ?
<|darks|> right ..
<jcater> the typecast property should have a combo box
<jcater> does it look like it's entering an "edit" mode when you double click, or does it do nothing at all
<|darks|> it looks like a editing mode ..
<|darks|> but i can't edit anything .. and it's not a combo box .. at least here
<|darks|> ahh curso up/down does the trick :P
<psu> bbl
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<|darks|> jcarter: thx for the help :)
<jcater> sorry I couldn't be more help... you kinda helped yourself :)
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<Yurik> re
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<|darks|> jcarter: well you said it's a combo box .. never thought of that possibility :)
<dneighbo> |darks| i think wx has screwed up painting
<dneighbo> so on the combo boxes it 'behaves' like a combobox, but it doesnt 'look' like one :)
<dneighbo> screwed me up too ;)
<|darks|> yip .. could be .. maybe the sizing is wrong ...
<dneighbo> i think its cause its a combo box in a grid
<|darks|> hmm, i don't know that much about wx ..
<dneighbo> jcater if you can confirm this is a wx thing
<dneighbo> i can send (or you can) something to the wx lists
<dneighbo> see if we can get it fixed
<jcater> there whole grid system is botched (and they know it :)
<jcater> I think we are the only major project using them
<jcater> (most others implement their own)
<jcater> but I had them displaying right at once, 
<jcater> so it may be something I did
<dneighbo> its jamest fault
<dneighbo> btw: where is the 'old man' today anyhow?
Action: dneighbo thinks perhaps his calculus professor chewed him and spate him out yesterday.
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<dneighbo> |darks| do you work with ....
<dneighbo> crap i cant recall his name now... 
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<ra3vat> hi all
<dneighbo> |darks| do you work with jack-e (me remembered his name now)
<dneighbo> hi ra3vat, how goes the russian arm of gnue :)
<ra3vat> arm?
<Yurik> ra3vat hi
<Yurik> army?
<dneighbo> faction
<dneighbo> group
<dneighbo> segment...
<ra3vat> all those frozen I think 
<ra3vat> winter is here
<dneighbo> little cold there eh?
<dneighbo> its very cold for here....
<dneighbo> i think it might be about 18 C here :)
<dneighbo> which is cold when during summer it gets up to about 48 or 49 C :)
<Yurik> here is -3..-15C :-)) 
<dneighbo> what is a - (negative) sign mean when its in 'front' of a temperature ;)
Action: dneighbo lives in the desert negative temperatures dont exist here :)
<Yurik> :-))
Action: dsmith pities dneighbo
<dneighbo> please dont, i LOVE it
<dneighbo> if its below 70 its too darn cold out
<dsmith> poor, poor dneighbo
<dsmith> hah! if it's above 75, it's too hot!
<dsmith> ;^)
<ra3vat> we have "Feels Like: -5F" here
<dneighbo> hot?
<dneighbo> hot is 115 and above
<dneighbo> 95 - 100 is about perfect
<dsmith> bah
<dneighbo> of course with our 5% humidity
<dsmith> Ah well.
<dneighbo> where are you at dsmith?
<dsmith> Near the shores of beautiful Lake Erie.
<dneighbo> if its a 'muggy' state i can understand why you dont like the heat :)
<dsmith> Hinckley, OH
<dneighbo> as 80degrees w/ 80% humidity is satan's lair
<dneighbo> i remember going to orlando and about dying
<dsmith> Tell me about it.
<dneighbo> it was only like 89 degrees out but like 90% humidity
<dneighbo> i felt like i was going to DIE
Action: dsmith likes fall time best.
<dsmith> the smells, the colors.
<dsmith> Ahhh.
<dneighbo> came back home to like 115 degree weather with 5% humidity and it felt GREAT :)
<dneighbo> yes 'seasons' are a 'nice' concept
<dneighbo> but you get used to only having 'hot' and 'cold' after a bit :)
<dneighbo> actually here they have compensated
<dneighbo> dec-jan = cold/winter
<dsmith> I get tired of winter and snow right about the time spring starts.
<dneighbo> feb/april = rain (cause thats the 3 days we get rain in)
<dneighbo> april - jun = summer
<dneighbo> jul-aug = monsoon season
<dneighbo> aug - nov = are we in hawaii?
<jcater> sigh
Action: jcater lives in the humid south :(
<jcater> maybe I should move to gilbert
<jcater> oh, wait
<jcater> masta's there
<dneighbo> nah you want queen creek or casa grande
Action: Yurik is drinking coffee
<dneighbo> more rural, but has high speed net :)
<jcater> broadband and cattle in same place
<jcater> gotta love america
<dneighbo> lots o cattle in queen creek and gilbert too
<dneighbo> that is biggest agriculutre in my area
<dneighbo> 'dairy farming'
<nickr> farming fairy
<jcater> or fairy farming :)
<dneighbo> rofl
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<Yurik> ToyMan hi
<Yurik> reinhard hi
<ToyMan> hi Yurik
<dneighbo> its toy man :)
<dneighbo> i ended up spending time with family last night, hope to get some time tonight to start chugging away
<jcater> ToyMan: how's the christmas season treating you?
<jcater> busy, I hope :)
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<Yurik> re
<ToyMan> well, yes, busy.  gotta go though
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<Yurik> re
<dneighbo> what is the prefix before run?
<dneighbo> i'll take 'the GNU you' for 500 alex.
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<pattieja> hello
<jcater> pattieja: hellow
<jcater> is this the pattieja from LTSP?
<jcater> hellow = hello :)
<pattieja> jcater: yes
<jcater> what brings you to GNUe land?
<pattieja> I was told to find an open source project that does Payroll
<pattieja> hope I came to the right place?
Action: dneighbo raises hand
Action: jcater is away: phone
<pattieja> hello dneighbo
<dneighbo> pattieja where are you located?
<dneighbo> and what are your base requirements
<pattieja> St. Louis, MO
<pattieja> well, we currently have written a web-based CGI application for time keeping
<dneighbo> pattieja do you have an RFP or RFQ for what you need payroll to do
<pattieja> nope
<pattieja> :)
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<dneighbo> damn users shopping w/o specs again ;)
<pattieja> hey.
<pattieja> I resemble that remark.
<pattieja> if you haven't seen it, you might take a gander at SandSurfer
<chillywilly> resent?
<pattieja> sandsurfer.sourceforge.net
<pattieja> it's an open source time keeping tool we wrote
<pattieja> we were either wanting to replace it with something better or integrate a payroll system into it (or export to a payroll system)
<pattieja> how mature is GNUe?
<pattieja> the website looks pretty good
<dneighbo> pattieja : we dont have payroll done
<dneighbo> BUT
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<dneighbo> i have customers needing it
<dneighbo> so i would be willing to make it priority
<pattieja> cool
<dneighbo> you could definitely integrate or interface to your current system
<dneighbo> we have a GPL time app too (though i dont think i have told anyone here)
<pattieja> is timekeeping a part of GNUe currently? if not, would it fit?
<dneighbo> yes it would fit
<pattieja> cool
<dneighbo> I would definitely love to look at what you have
<dneighbo> and if it makes sense maybe make it part of gnue
<pattieja> go for it
<dneighbo> and start writing some gnue management utilities against it
<dneighbo> (as i dont care for web apps)
<pattieja> it's strictly backend CGI scripts written in Perl
<pattieja> right
<dneighbo> but i see value in web based 'time entry'
<dneighbo> i.e. clock in clock out
<dneighbo> we have somethign all done in php
<pattieja> exactly what it does
<dneighbo> called timekeeper
<pattieja> so you're the ones that stole our original name, ahah!
<dneighbo> it allows clock in clock out for a warehouse company
<pattieja> hehe
<dneighbo> i wrote this evil little php reporting tool
<dneighbo> that allows you to use excel as a reporting engine
<pattieja> ewww!
<dneighbo> for this reason mostly is why we never released to public :)
<dneighbo> but it was a 'requirement' at the time
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<dneighbo> and it made dealing with  ADP for payroll easy
<pattieja> hmm.  maybe you're not, then.  Cause there's already a TimeKeeper project out there.
<pattieja> SandSurfer has client billing included and some other company related features
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> definitely worth looking at
<dneighbo> if of course you are open to incorporating it into GNUe
<pattieja> I don't see why that would be a problem
<dneighbo> or being flexible to someone adding stubs where necessary to interface to GNUe
<dneighbo> only problem i see
<dneighbo> is its written in perl :)
<pattieja> we wanted to rewrite the whole thing anyway
<pattieja> yep
<dneighbo> python! python! python!
<pattieja> is GNUe primarily C++?
<pattieja> oh
<dneighbo> sorry...
<pattieja> ORB?  python?  wow.
<dneighbo> python is just so friendly
<dneighbo> we are working on a UI html driver too for gnue
<dneighbo> so maybe rewrite it in gnue :)
<pattieja> I saw that in the picture graph
<pattieja> the ncurses and html frontends
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Action: jcater is back (gone 00:24:49)
Action: dneighbo needs to see how complex this perl thing is
<dneighbo> and see if its best to move with it or dig timekeeper out of cvs
<dneighbo> hmmm looks pretty similar only you guys have some more 'payroll' stuff
<dneighbo> does your stuff do any notifications?
<dneighbo> as i recall what we had was it email notifying the payroll leader
<dneighbo> when people had uncoupled time
<chillywilly> hey there was a new wxWindows release
<dneighbo> so that they could beat the person or fix it
<dneighbo> also there was time edit request system via email
<dneighbo> so if you needed to 'amend' your time you filled it out, and it went to a queue
<dneighbo> where the administrator could then approve or modify it
<dneighbo> jcater : btw: you have any need for this kind of thing?
<chillywilly> "The biggest changes in the development version is that the Mac version is now 90% ready for production use and supports MacOS 8.6 or higher as well as MacOS X or higher.
<chillywilly> "
<chillywilly> http://wesley.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~wxxt/
<dneighbo> chillywilly 2.3.x i think is a 'development' release
<jcater> dneighbo: not immediately at least
<chillywilly> still OS X is almost there
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> jcater how do you do time cards current?
<chillywilly> will make neilt appy at least
<chillywilly> happy
<dneighbo> dcl is good for tracking time, but not for 'hourly employees'
<dneighbo> i.e. its good performance metrics tool, but not a hard core when are you at work when aren't you tool
<jcater> we use ETC time card
<jcater> it has credit card like things
<jcater> w/a magnetic strip
<dneighbo> ah
<jcater> w/PC software
<dneighbo> so you bought something (evil you)
<dneighbo> well the idea was time keep instead of 'swipe' any terminal with a webbroswer could clock you in
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> we have a hard time getting ppl to understand
<dneighbo> at the warehouse this worked well, BUT i was going to get a card reader and try it out at one point
<jcater> "swiping"
<jcater> much less web-based stuff
<chillywilly> hwy I almost worked for the city of milwaukee here on their time keeping app for the city...it was a java app...they had 1GB ethnet netwokr
<dneighbo> what we did for timekeeper was put a pc at front desk (running linux) that was OLD like 486
<dneighbo> and have it with browser open to page
<jcater> btw, the time card machine uses a text-based serial protocol
<dneighbo> it was 'login' click the button logout
<jcater> so it'd be easy to integrate w/another solution
<dneighbo> which did take some time
<jcater> dneighbo: and it you were smart, you used LTSP to run the 486 :)
<dneighbo> but it was saviour in sense that memphis location needed something too
<dneighbo> and needed reported to corporate
<dneighbo> so this solved that
<dneighbo> and even the memphis boys figured er out :)
<dneighbo> but i still think value in making a time swiper too
<dneighbo> to do metrics you have to have a terminal though
<dneighbo> and everyone is starting to do metric
<dneighbo> so i imagine slowly it will be the way
<dneighbo> pattieja did we lose ya?
<dneighbo> if you are serious about using gnue we can probably focus some attention to a solution
<dneighbo> if you needed something yesterday and only want something that is ready now today out of box, then gnue wont work :)
<pattieja> dneighbo: no.  this will be a process of growth
<pattieja> my boss wanted to incorporate payroll into SandSurfer, but wanted to check to make sure that there weren't systems out there already so we wouldn't reinvent the wheel yet another time.
<pattieja> We also have a web-based accounting system which is open source as well
<pattieja> called XIWA
<pattieja> (XIWA Is Web Accounting)
<dneighbo> hmm havent heard of that
<pattieja> xiwa.sourceforge.net if you want to check it out
<dneighbo> any reason you didnt use sql-ledger/
Action: dneighbo is just curious as it seems popular and is perl (iirc)
<pattieja> or you can just go to pcxperience.org to see all the open source projects we're working on
<pattieja> how long has it been around?
<pattieja> never heard of it
<dneighbo> dont know but its all the rage right now
<dneighbo> people coming here generally say do we
<dneighbo> a. use sql-ledger now
<dneighbo> b. use gnucash and hope we get business features added later
<dneighbo> c. contribute to gnue and grow with it
<pattieja> hehe.  I found this project because of gnucash
<dneighbo> http://www.sql-ledger.com/
<pattieja> wow
<dneighbo> i still cant imagine doing books via a web interface, but i suppose if you are low volume you could do so w/o tearing your hair out
<pattieja> yeah.  we had to craft some pretty intricate SQL stored procedures to increase the speed that Perl wasn't giving us
<dneighbo> its not that so much as data entry in a stateless environment has to hurt
<pattieja> how so?
<pattieja> it's single user at the moment  :)
<dneighbo> well often times data is dependent on other data
<dneighbo> with out state you have to 'refresh and submit' to get this or load a ton of stuff into javascript
<dneighbo> example if i choose department X
<pattieja> yep
<dneighbo> maybe only accounts a and b are available
<dneighbo> if i choose account a (expense codes 1 2 3 are ok) but if i choose b (only c and d are ok)
<pattieja> then when you create account X, you have to propagate it into the dropdown or whatever
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<pattieja> yep yep
<dneighbo> when you get 'nested' validations doing in javascript is a bitch
<dneighbo> as you have to load a ton of arrays
<dneighbo> etc
<pattieja> :)
<dneighbo> so most people put on the 'next page' etc
<dneighbo> which becomes CUMBERSOME to do data entyr
<dneighbo> i.e. fill out the whole form and we will tell you if you had an error
<dneighbo> opposed to telling me up front i had an error :)
<pattieja> yep
<pattieja> you might want to checkout XIWA
<dneighbo> not to mention the concept of redrawing the screen after every 'action'
<dneighbo> while no big deal at a second or two per redraw
<dneighbo> if you enter say 10 invoices a day
<pattieja> we're attempting to get a server going to host a demo
<dneighbo> but at one shop here they enter approx 300-500 invoices a day between like 2 people
<dneighbo> they would LYNCH us if they had to use a web interface :)
<pattieja> so how do you do the html frontend in python for GNUe?
<dneighbo> it woudl have the same issues and such and handled similar way
<dneighbo> the difference is it become optional w/o recode
<pattieja> hmm
<dneighbo> so if i make a gnue form for something
<dneighbo> it can be used web, curses, gtk, win32
<pattieja> yep
<dneighbo> so the folks doing 500 invoices can use gtk or such and not suffer penalty
<pattieja> win32 ... ewww
<pattieja> :)
<dneighbo> but for a same disparate organization they can use the webforms 
<dneighbo> i.e. you are tied
<dneighbo> thats why i said are you against us making admin forms for sandsurfer in gnue :)
<pattieja> you did
<pattieja> I did?
<dneighbo> like the edit/add/deletion of users
<dneighbo> etc etc
<dneighbo> as i could make that form in problably 10 minutes
<dneighbo> and it would take seconds to add 20 to 30 users
<dneighbo> compared to half a day using a web form
<dneighbo> i have a huge list of todo's tonight
<pattieja> unless GNUe were to use Java or Tcl on the web forms
<dneighbo> but if i get unburied some, i might install sandsurfer
<dneighbo> pattieja im not suggesting 'replacing' just adding a choice
<pattieja> you can checkout the online demo, if that's easier
<dneighbo> i looked at online demo
<pattieja> hmm.  that too.
<pattieja> cool  :)
<pattieja> what'd you think?
<dneighbo> im thinking of grabbing it writing the gnue screens for management
<dneighbo> and having you look at them
<pattieja> go for it
<dneighbo> i.e. forcing you to install gnue :)
<dneighbo> as the logic thought for me is if you are normalized enough
<dneighbo> in your structs
<dneighbo> i might be able to take our hr spec and whip up employee screens
<dneighbo> which would be the basis of your user tables
<pattieja> coolness
<dneighbo> i.e. you create and employee and it 'autocreates' them a login
<dneighbo> er rather their login references their hr record
<dneighbo> for like thier name, job title etc
<pattieja> sounds neat
<pattieja> I'm takin' off, but I'll definitely try to install GNUe tomorrow
Action: pattieja is away: Bible study + dinner (mmmm :)
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<dneighbo> er sandsurfer doesnt have downloads :(
Action: dneighbo hates not being able to get cvs trees from work
<chillywilly> firewall?
<chillywilly> do you have a proxy?
<dneighbo> both
<chillywilly> are the cvs ports open on a the proxy?
<chillywilly> s/a//
<chillywilly> I think you can make cvs use a proxy'
<dneighbo> um dont know but not open on firewall :)
<dneighbo> only thing open (and this is funny)
<dneighbo> 21 - ftp
<dneighbo> 23 - telnet
<dneighbo> 80 - http
<dneighbo> 21 and 23 being fairly insecure applications :)
<chillywilly> telnet?!?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> especially telnet
<dneighbo> goats is listening on 23 to convert/map to ssh
<dneighbo> so i ssh out of here on 23 to goats for translation
<dneighbo> otherwise i couldnt use ssh either :)
<chillywilly> fooey
<chillywilly> you need to trout whip the admins
<chillywilly> ;)
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<chillywilly> Id it me or do the diffs on the commit list look different
<jcater> dude
<chillywilly> like they are not in universal format anymore
<jcater> I'm in love
<chillywilly> why?
<jcater> rsync rocks my socks
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> that it does
<jcater> I never paid attention to its potential
<jcater> but my backup strategy is about to change :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> :)
<jcater> I've been backing up some of my minor unix boxes via nfs
Action: jcater slaps himself
<dneighbo> oh yes i love rsync too :)
<dneighbo> figured i woudl 'try it' to update my personal webpage
<dneighbo> now im tempted to run two machines with huge drives
<dneighbo> and just nightly sync some dirs
<dneighbo> as a 60 gig drive at 80.00 is cheaper than any backup solution i can think of
<chillywilly> jcater: you didn't even let me get it out
<chillywilly> l8r
Action: chillywilly is away: supper
<jcater> I'm setting up all my machines to mirror each other :)
<dneighbo> jcater you almost have to
<dneighbo> i mean i think DLT machine
<dneighbo> and how slow it is 
<dneighbo> and what it costs
<dneighbo> and its like take a 486 machine put a few 60gig drives in it
<dneighbo> and you ahve a superior backup solution out of box
<jcater> what's cool is we have a frame relay link to our other office
<jcater> normally doing a tar across that bites the big one
<jcater> but rsyncing is a different story
<dneighbo> oh yeah rsync being ftp etc w/ compression is jsut like studly :)
<dsmith> dlt drives are bad.  They just are.
Action: dsmith get paid to do tsm consulting. dsmith knows.
<jcater> bad as in reliability? 
<dsmith> yes
<dsmith> but they are common in low-end hardware (wintel boxes)
<|darks|> so what about vxa ?
<dsmith> Ahh. xva.
<dsmith> The scsi interface is horrible, but the tehnology is really cool.
<dsmith> Unsupported by tsm though. I tried.
<|darks|> *hehe* well their lib works .. at least here :)
<dsmith> Yes.  We use one in the office. (drive, not library)
<|darks|> tsm .. tivol storage manager ?!?
<dsmith> yes
<|darks|> ahh .. we have that at the local computing center .. with some storagetek powderhorns :)
<dsmith> I'm probably the top (non-ibm) tsm guy in the cleveland, oh area. Or so they tell me.
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<dneighbo> tsm guy == the stupid masochist guy?
<dsmith> heh
Action: dneighbo is debating do i back up my laptop and upgrade to debian tonight.....
<dneighbo> or do i get work done and do that another day
<dneighbo> i think it probably needs to wait till another day, but red hats time is definitely limited
Nick change: dsmith -> dsmith-away
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:24:35)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: hehe
Action: chillywilly hasn't used redhat in FOREVER
<dneighbo> well me either in one sense
<dneighbo> put it this way i installed the current version on red hat when it was brand spanking new
<dneighbo> that is version 6.2
<chillywilly> ok
<dneighbo> nearly 2 years ago?
Action: dneighbo is trying to remember
<chillywilly> woah ;)
<dneighbo> so while i use red hat 'regularly' like a LOT
<dneighbo> i do so only because upgrading is a painful thought
<dneighbo> upgrading to anything :) even a newer red hat
<dneighbo> im firm believer you shouldnt really have to upgrade all the time
<dneighbo> unless there is a tool like debian apt
<dneighbo> that lets you update VERY regularly
<dneighbo> so you arent upgrading your whole damn system at a single time
<dneighbo> of course apt will let you do that too :)
<dneighbo> hey chillywilly you are mr. kernel
<dneighbo> how come sid has kernel
<chillywilly> yes?
<chillywilly> er?
<dneighbo> Linux version 2.2.19pre17 (herbert@arnor) (gcc version 2.7.2.3) #1 Tue Mar 13 22:37:59 EST 2001
<chillywilly> because debian is like compile your own kernel
<dneighbo> i.e. installed potato on this machine
<chillywilly> biased
<dneighbo> then i did dist upgrade to sid
<dneighbo> figured it would be 2.4.x something at least
<chillywilly> you can install one of the binaries
<dneighbo> and was suprised it was still in 2.2.x series
<chillywilly> one of the kernel-images
<chillywilly> dneighbo: if you use the xfs disks
<chillywilly> you can get a 2.4.x kernel
<dneighbo> hmmmm
<dneighbo> if i was more of a stud
<chillywilly> or you should be able to install a binary
<dneighbo> i would try xfs (or some journaling filesystem) and 2.4 kernel
<dneighbo> probably not something i want to tackle w/ laptop upgrade, will have enough issues to fight htere :)
<dneighbo> dont need stuff never seen on top of it
<dneighbo> BUT 
<dneighbo> if i get a pc at home soon, i will probably do that type of install
<chillywilly> well doing xfs was not fun
<chillywilly> it took too much time
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> well not really
<chillywilly> I made myself go down to school and use the T3
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> when I last reinstalled
<chillywilly> my buddy just b0rked his kernel
<chillywilly> the one that came over and we installed debian
<chillywilly> on his machine
<chillywilly> but I told him to be careful
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I'll have to go help him fix it
<chillywilly> :)
<dneighbo> hey its SNOWING in phoenix
<chillywilly> WOW
<dneighbo> that only happens like every 10 to 50 years
<chillywilly> cool
<dneighbo> of course it melts when it hits the ground :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<dneighbo> cept 1 year when i was bout 12 it got like half inch and STUCK
<dneighbo> it was kick butt
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<dneighbo> seeing snow on cactus is kind of funny
<chillywilly> dneighbo: heheh, too bad I am no stranger to snow
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> it was like 45 degrees earlier in the morning
<dneighbo> must have cooled down considerably in the west valley or something
<chillywilly> that's a warm spring day ;)
<dneighbo> time to head home
<dneighbo> hasta senor's
<chillywilly> l8r
<chillywilly> you know you will be back ;)
<dneighbo> er au revoir mon frere's
<dneighbo> later
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<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> nice quit message
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#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
<chillywilly> howdy neilt
<neilt> chillywilly: hello
Action: neilt wakes up
<neilt> doing email sorry
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<chillywilly> heh
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<chillywilly> ello mdean
<mdean> howdy chillywilly
<Maniac> lo all
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Action: mdean thwaps Maniac with the Thwap of Justice
<nickr>  heya
Action: Maniac thwaps mdean with the ThwapMaster 2k
<nickr> ooh twapmaster
<nickr> snazzy
<Maniac> (tm)
<Maniac> mdean knows the thwapmaster well
<mdean> doesn't hold a candle to the BFTM10k
<mdean> Maniac: are you sitting down?
<Maniac> mdean snazzier acronyms but mine has more impact
<Maniac> mdean: as a matter of fact i'm standing
<mdean> you'd better sit
<mdean> I have news
<Maniac> ok i'm kneeling
<mdean> hehe
<mdean> I made a commit to phpgwapi
<nickr> the snazzier the better
<Maniac> oh, i saw the emalii to dev list
<Maniac> mdean: this commit was for your work tho
<Maniac> so no fair
<mdean> hehe
<mdean> whatever - provides no direct benefit to me, so it's fair
<Maniac> by *direct* you mean it does or does not affect work?
<Maniac> or you did it @work and thought you would let it filter back into the *community*
<mdean> by direct, I mean I do not benefit from the code
<Maniac> well, you generated good will
<mdean> blah!  you know me better than that
<Maniac> and some karma!
<mdean> oooooh
<mdean> will that carry over to my /. karma?
<mdean> since I practically have none
<Maniac> mdean := (mdean) + (karmapoints);
<mdean> := ??? thought you were a .py man now?
<Maniac> old habbit
<mdean> :)
<Maniac> object factories are easy in .py btw
<mdean> are in php too
<mdean> ever have any luck finding some apps using webware?
<Maniac> they are a hastle in c++
<Maniac> no
<Maniac> there are a few sites
<Maniac> most are not public
<mdean> you mean pyGroupWare will be the first?
Action: Maniac giggles
<Maniac> ok so are you goignto help with pyGroupware?
Action: Maniac spell checks his fingers
<Maniac> ok i have to go do some work (tm)
<Maniac> i'll bug you later
<mdean> do you want to start the project?
<Maniac> mdean: would it go anywhere/
<Maniac> ?
<mdean> why wouldn't it?
<Maniac> who would participate?
<mdean> I would
<Maniac> on the webware devel list they go all esoteric regadring user authentication and management tons of emails but no code
<Maniac> there's a wiki page 
<Maniac> but i really have to go or i will get in trouble :)
<Maniac> bbl
Action: Maniac is away: I'm busy
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> pyGroupWare?
<jcater> was he serious?
<mdean> what's not to love? ;-)
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<chillywilly> object factories are easy in loosely typed languages
<chillywilly> C++ is not loosely typed
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> well, I dunno
<jcater> in order for me to do C++, I have to be loose from liquer or something
<jcater> :P
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> \/me is doing C++ right now
<chillywilly> oops
<jcater> so that involves "loosly typing"
<chillywilly> see
<chillywilly> I must be drinking ;)
<jcater> not sure if that's the same as "loosely typed"
<chillywilly> to be typing like that
<chillywilly> and coding C++
<chillywilly> :D
<chillywilly> Dave is a real c++ guru (tm)
<chillywilly> feh, no one laughs at my lame jokes
Action: chillywilly thought the drinking joke was funny
<chillywilly> ah well
Action: jcater didn't get the Dave reference
<chillywilly> jcater: does this mean Mr. Sugar is a drunk ;)?
<jcater> chillywilly: only if I'm doing a C* language
<chillywilly> you know Dave Sugar
<chillywilly> that guy
<chillywilly> whose code I am a using
<chillywilly> GNU Common C++
<chillywilly> weeeee
<jcater> ok
<chillywilly> our "telephony" server author
<jcater> doh!
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater is not good w/names
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<chillywilly> hey ajmitch
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<chillywilly> wb derek
<derek> thankyou
<chillywilly> we missed you
<chillywilly> it was too quiet ;)
Action: chillywilly ducks
<jcater> first it's trout
<jcater> then it's duck
<jcater> sigh
<chillywilly> ducks eats trout ;)
<jcater> maybe it should be "GNU Barnyard" instead of "GNU Enterprise"
<chillywilly> I am moving up the evolutionary latter
Action: jcater slaps chillywilly with a quacking duck
<chillywilly> ouch!
<derek> rolf
<mdean> jcater: Peking duck packs more punch
<derek> er rofl
<jcater> rolling over laughing flounders?
<derek> no rolling on laughing floor
<derek> if thats confusing, you havent had enough crack :)
Action: chillywilly takes a hit off his crack pipe
<chillywilly> can never have enough crack
Action: mdean gets his crack from php
<chillywilly> derek: who's rolf?
<chillywilly> ;)
<Remosi> Mmm
<Remosi> phpCrack
<mdean> piano playing dog on the Muppet Show
<chillywilly> lol
Action: chillywilly forgot about him
<jcater> Remosi: I prefer pyCrack
Action: chillywilly prefers crack++
<jcater> rofl
<Remosi> pyCrack's much better, instead of this watered down MSCrack.
<derek> hmmm MSCrack is extreme powerful
<derek> but nearly as addictive as pyCrack
<jcater> gnuCrack doesn't cause you to crash as harrd as MSCrack
<Remosi> gnuCrack's got the recipe printed on the side
<chillywilly> objCrack is for apples
<jcater> yes, but any improvements to gnuCrack has to be given back to the community
<chillywilly> lol
<Remosi> Reused gnuCrack, Mmmmm
<chillywilly> gnuCrack can also be freely distributed
<chillywilly> (re)distributed even
<jcater> problem with MSCrack is you have to take it anally
<jcater> at least by MS's standards
<Remosi> you're allowed to charge for gnuCrack (it comes in tape boxes), but the dealers can give it away for free
<mdean> jcater: with a scoop of Skippy Extra Chunky
<jcater> then there's sharedSourceCrack... you know at least part of it is real :)
<chillywilly> with gnuCrack you are allowed 4 central freedoms: 1)     *  The freedom to use the crack, for any purpose (freedom 0).
Action: mdean has too many copies of DCL installed...
<derek> how hard is an upgrade
<chillywilly> 2) * The freedom to study crack is made, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the crack recipe is a precondition for this.
<chillywilly> study how
<derek> from like 3 months ago cvs to 1209 release?
<chillywilly> * The freedom to redistribute the crack so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
<jcater> derek: such an upgrade requires massive doses of SqlCrack
<chillywilly>     * The freedom to improve the crack, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
<mdean> derek: as easy as running a few sql scripts, moving the new web source in place and using it as normal
<chillywilly> er, crack recipe
<jcater> mdean: really?
<jcater> cool
<mdean> derek: it's all explained poorly in the UPGRADE file ;-)
<mdean> 1210 is the latest btw
<mdean> and I'm readying another release for the nagging IE cookie problem
<derek> ok
<chillywilly> Free The crack!!!!!
<derek> i think i need to upgrade at work
<chillywilly> noe more crack hoarders
<mdean> the gateway is in there too :)
<derek> i have some date stuff with the tickets (fixed work orders)
<derek> that im pretty sure i saw as fixed in newer release
<derek> and i think i saw the ability to flag things as closed (i.e. instead of hardcoded to a position)
<mdean> yup
<mdean> statuses now have a type (open, closed, deferred)
<derek> basic i had sent like 2 or 3 bugs and a few feature requests :)
<derek> i think you hit those and now i need to upgrade :)
<mdean> I should have acted like a proprietary vendor and sat on them for a couple years first ;-)
<derek> no kidding
<derek> fits our 'upgrade' schedule :)
<derek> i.e. i have wanted to upgrade at every release but keep getting pulled to do other things
Action: mdean knows the feeling...
Action: derek is hearing an msn commericial in the background and laughing....
<derek> have problems, msn will solve them....
<nickr> gnue should be rewritten in varaq
<nickr> yea
<nickr> they have those on busses here
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<jcater> roflmao.. we just had chinese and this was my fortune: 
<jcater> "Promote literacy. Buy a box of fortune cookies today."
<jcater> it's marketing everywhere!
<mdean> lol
<mdean> that's like Dr. Pepper a few years ago
<ajmitch_> hi all
<mdean> "Try Again.  Drink more Dr. Pepper."
<Remosi> rofl
<chillywilly> haha
Action: Maniac is back (gone 01:28:14)
<Maniac> pyGW tastes great but less filling
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<derek> smelly trout isnt that a double something
<derek> i mean is there such thing as a non smelly trout?
<ajmitch> i think it means really smelly trout that has been lying dead in the sun for a day or two
<chillywilly_> eeeew
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<derek> nickr: you ehre?
<nickr> yea
<nickr> always
<nickr> eternally
<Mr_You> hi
<derek> nickr: briefly looked at docustore proposal
<derek> good start, will probably need more fleshing out as we go
<derek> Maniac and mdean are looking for dm
<derek> so you might have some victims here soon if we get this rolling :)
<ajmitch> hehe
<nickr> Heheh
<nickr> Ah, fresh meat
<nickr> no to speak
<nickr> Yea, there are several areas that need things written in them
<derek> i asked neilt to get up on  official site
<derek> and we will blast to mailing list and web site news
<derek> to get some feedback
<derek> and get the ball rolling further
<nickr> that'd be amazing
<derek> jcater is making headway on gnurpc which should be good for the 'server' communications aspect
<ajmitch> phpGW is looking pretty cool
<nickr> yea, gnuprc is rather fundimental to this design
<derek> ajmitch you been drinkiing again? ;)
<ajmitch> would be useful
<ajmitch> derek: :P
<chillywilly> derek: ?
<chillywilly> why would using phpGW require getting drunk?
<chillywilly> eh?
<chillywilly> ;P
<derek> chillywilly: im teasing
Action: chillywilly trout slaps derek hard
<derek> thats nothing, after being attacked by the thwapmaster earlier toady :)
<derek> today even
Action: chillywilly ducks slaps derek
Action: chillywilly strangles derek with the quackmaster
<derek> chillywilly: we need to put your energy of the trout slap to work
<derek> time to make you a dcl account and start assigning you tasks
<nickr> Heh.
Action: chillywilly drop kicks da masta 
<ajmitch> derek: you got dcl setup for GNUe?
<derek> yip
<nickr> neat
<nickr> Hows dcl comming?
<ajmitch> cool
<derek> nicely
<nickr> It was a little rough last time I used it
Action: derek needs to create a 'guest' account so people can see whats there then create a little page so can create an account to 'add' items
<chillywilly> gooo heeerbieee!
<derek> i.e. add tickets
<ajmitch> sounds cool
<nickr> There should be a non-login account for tickets and things or something
Action: mdean whispers e-mail gateway...
<ajmitch> i've got an old DCL setup here, haven't used it really
<derek> mdean: yes to email gateway
<derek> BUT
<derek> tehre are issues
<derek> i created a guest account so people can view w/o registering
<derek> i want to allow people to register so they can have security to only create tickets
<derek> if they dont want to register they just email bugs@gnue.org and it autocreates a ticket :)
<derek> via gateway
<derek> the 'advantage' to registering will be then you can get the 'status' of your ticket and status will be mailed to you etc etc etc
<mdean> that's cool
<derek> ultimately with the gateway it will be mailed to you from account you sent the bug from
<mdean> may need to tighten a few things down
<derek> for now you can see whats there by using
<derek> user: guest
<derek> pass: guest
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/dclgw/
<derek> obviously most of the people in this channel are gnue team members or core team members
<derek> so your user/pass will be forth coming
<derek> best way to get one is email me lots of crap that should be in dcl and i will get sick of entering it and give you an id instead and tell you to enter it :)
<derek> that or volunteer to do things :)
<ajmitch> hehe
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--- Thu Dec 13 2001