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<chillywilly> do they still use linuxdoc?
<chillywilly> or did they switch to docbook?
<lvogel> dunno
<lvogel> I thought they did something with ht:dig or whatever it is
<lvogel> Is there anything linking current project status to the requirements documentation?
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<lvogel> for example, 3.1.1 (business requirements) states the purpose of the base finance module
<lvogel> is this module in existance yet?
<lvogel> d'oh
<lvogel> maybe that's what this chunk o'code is on the bottom :)
<lvogel> ok, I came up with a better question
<lvogel> in the default data definition sections, the comments state something about "a special file format that is converted by the GEAS sql loader into valid sql"
<lvogel> what does that mean?
<lvogel> hello?
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<ajmitch> hi ra3vat
<ra3vat> hello ajmitch
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<Yurik> re
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<jack-e> hi all
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<jamest> reinhard: are the cvs instructions on the site messed up then?
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> anyone know how to use dcl?
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<jamest> morning
[08:47] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<reinhard> jamest: savannah has correct instructions
<reinhard> jamest: maybe www.gnu.org/projects/gnue has some outdated instructions
<reinhard> but that fits very well to the rest of that page which is also outdated...
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<reinhard> bbl
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<jack-e> re
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<jamest> jack-e: you get further into the source?
<jack-e> actually i just read GFTrigger.py :)
<jack-e> after looking around in forms to get a rough picture of forms ..
<jamest> GFTrigger is going to be rewritten :)
<jamest> hmmmm
<jamest> right now it might be easier to say
<jack-e> i know .. i just want to get the big pic of all this stuff ..
<jamest> "<fill in blank> is going to be rewritten.  However database access is in the process of being rewritten."
<jack-e> fine :))
<jack-e> for now i try to understand how things interact .. not very much the details are of interest by now ..
<jack-e> so .. i started with 0.1.0 releases  .. should i switch to cvs .. to track the changes ??
<jamest> ummm
<jamest> the head branch of cvs is where the real fun will begin 
<jack-e> or just stay with 0.1.0 and read cvs :)
<jamest> but I dont' thinks it's begun yet
<jack-e> yeah .. real fun is what i want :))
<jamest> there are also the gnue-*-0-1-0-patches branches that 0.1.1 will sprout from
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<dneighbo> jcater well the verdicts out
<dneighbo> my wife had no problem using KDE however she thinks its crap
<jbailey> *giggle*
<dneighbo> i think she has been talking to chilly or something
<dneighbo> `I hate this and where is all my old mail and how do i get new mail  don't 
<dneighbo> make me use this crap.. its hard to see it looks blirey and i hate it its 
<dneighbo> crap 
<dneighbo> is her exact quote
<jbailey> I decided to give Angie gnome instead of KDE.  KDE always seems to cluttered for me...
<dneighbo> from an email she sent to me using KMail :)
<jbailey> Evolution looks alot like OE, so she was happy, plus it gives her the weather. =)
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<dneighbo> she learned to spell from jamest :)
<dneighbo> jbailey well, i have an OLD machine
<dneighbo> and evolution is TOO SLOW
<dneighbo> she liked it but complained it was too slow
<dneighbo> and the fonts were too big
<dneighbo> so i upped the resolution and installed kde (hoping to get speed)
<jcater> how odd
<dneighbo> now she says its blurry
<dneighbo> and i kind of agree
<jcater> that's the reverse of the response I got at the call-center
<dneighbo> the default font sucks on kde
<jbailey> Ah.  Angie had a 600mhz celeron, so it was good for speed.  And we like large fonts.  Easier on the eyes. =)
<dneighbo> also default on kmail i think makes 'unread' messages 'red'
<dneighbo> which she called me this morning and said fix this machine
<dneighbo> its all 'red and blurry' i dont like it
<dneighbo> funny thing she said 'i use your laptop all the time and i like it, it looks good and is easy to use' give me that
<dneighbo> my laptop = 
<jamest> lol
<jcater> your laptop = ???
<jamest> i gave my users the choice between gnome and kde
<jamest> all but one (that have tried both) have stuck with kde
<jcater> my users no longer have a choice :)
<jamest> you've always got to have at least a few odd ones in the bunch 
Action: jamest dives for cover
<jcater> gnome multi-user bites the big one
<jamest> jcater: amen
<jamest> dang
<jamest> I have a user that really want's vtex from micropress-inc
<jamest> which is basically tex with tex like tex added to make the tex more tex (or something)
<jamest> from the install file it _requires_ a linux 4.4.4 or newer kernel
<dneighbo> galeon for webbrowser4.4 eh
<dneighbo> do
<dneighbo> galeon for webbrowser
<dneighbo> mozilla for email
<jbailey> jcater: What problems have you had with gnome in multi-user?
<dneighbo> gnome desktop
<dneighbo> thats what my laptop is :)
<dneighbo> got side tracked
<dneighbo> btw: im not bagging on KDE
<dneighbo> just giving you a report from the trenches
<dneighbo> from a 'normal user'
<jamest> jbailey: it's support is terrible for a system with Network in the acronym
<dneighbo> i made sure to just use 'default' kde out of debian
<dneighbo> hit ok to every standard option
<jamest> it's almost impossible to truely customize a default desktop for new users
<dneighbo> i might look at the fonts and some other things to see if i can make it better for her in kde
<dneighbo> but if that fails i will instll mozilla mail
<dneighbo> and galeon on there for her
<jamest> it has the very annoying habbit of making incompatible changes to it's config files during upgrades which is forgivable for a single user but a nightmare for me
<jbailey> jamest: Interesting.  I haven't played with Gnome on a network yet.  But my experience with putting absolute newbies in front of KDE is that it scares them.  Gnome's interface seems to work with them better.
<jamest> i've noticed that its very, very top heavy on my multiuser machines which brings the performance down for everyone on the system
<jamest> i dunno, this has just been my experiences
<jcater> jamest touched on my experiences too
<jcater> top heavy on multiuser machines, when I upgrade, I have to log into EACH account and put their settings back, 
<jamest> it had the habbit of corrupting config files (maybe due to nfs mounted home dir) once in a while
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I'll just let jamest talk
<jcater> as he's touching everyhtinn
<jbailey> Gnome is a little abusive of its config files.
<jbailey> =)
<jcater> dneighbo: btw, I'm not a big fan of kmail
<jamest> i don't like kmail either
<jamest> jbailey: which is fine for one person, but I have ~ 300 accounts here
<dneighbo> jcater/jamest : neither is my wife apparently ;)
<jbailey> jamest: Yeah.  Makes it just like upgrading windows. =)
<jbailey> (which I also used to hate)
<dneighbo> i just wanted her to use KDE out of the box
<jcater> jbailey: not really... windows is much easier to upgrade
<dneighbo> to get a feel for what her expierence was
<dneighbo> if you dont tell chillywilly_ i have been using it a little bit :)
<dneighbo> and kind of like some of it
<jcater> unless of course you are going from 3.1 to 2000 :)
<jbailey> I wind up just formatting between releases.  It's the only way I've found to keep any sort of stability.
<jcater> If I didn't have to support multiuser, I'd probably still be w/gnome
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> I'm not gonna use one thing and tell my users to use something else
<jcater> that just wouldn't be right
<jcater> :)
<jcater> but I LOVE kde now :)
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<dneighbo> i agree with jbailey that kde is a bit like windows wrt clutter
<jcater> oh, yeah... no comparison between mozilla-mail and kmail
<jbailey> jcater: That's the right of every BOFH to do!
<dneighbo> it litters teh panel with so much stuff and the icons are not very intuitive as to what they do
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> i think their menus are much better
<dneighbo> i.e. laid out more logically and cleaner than gnome's
<jcater> I've had no problem w/ppl picking up on kde's icons
<jamest> neither have i
<jcater> but I will admit that someone just sitting down to it
<jcater> might be overwhelmed at first
<dneighbo> not saying they are 'horrible'
<jcater> but I really haven't had that problem
<dneighbo> just its a 'lot' of stuff all at once
<jamest> dneighbo: what you can do
<jcater> our callcenter has a turnover rate of 30%
<jamest> is setup kde with the windows theme
<jcater> so 1/3 of our ppl are replaced every 6 weeks
<dneighbo> ouch
<jcater> and I have yet to have a single
<jcater> training session on KDE
<dneighbo> :)
<jcater> that must say something
<jcater> of course, on their machines, I removed all those icons at the bottom
<jcater> and only put a few there
<dneighbo> the good thing, is that i think both gnome and kde are good viable alternatives to windows :)
<jcater> oh, yeah
<dneighbo> i would say for end users kde is probably a little better
<dneighbo> as its a little faster and cleaner
<jamest> funny thing
<dneighbo> you lose being able to tweak it as much, but thats a GOOD thing
<dneighbo> especially in a network environment where you are having to support it :)
<jamest> i had a prof that _hated_ windows
<jamest> thus hated kde as it looked like windows
<jamest> i fliped the theme to MacOS and he loves it
<dneighbo> gnome is a little slower and not as good for 'deployment' but for a single hacker installation the ability to make it do about anything is nice
<dneighbo> its kind of like the 'emacs' desktop :)
<dneighbo> a little fat, but can do anything if you know how to pet it right :)
<jamest> the other big win (if a person could call it that) is kde's feature to flip background pics at timed intervals 
<dneighbo> as stated, i think its great that on linux we have 2 GREAT choices
<jcater> btw, I'm not arguing AGAINST gnome... 
<jamest> i know you can do that in any environment but the users find that option in the config panel and they love it :)
<jcater> I'm arguing FOR kde
<jcater> :)
<jamest> i'm not loyal to either
<dneighbo> jcater: and rightfully so :)
<jamest> my history was
<dneighbo> jamest: ive come to that point
<jamest> kde sucks, gnome is better i'll use it
<dneighbo> i was a gnome loyalist and hated kde (becaues of license)
<jamest> gnome sucks, kde is better i'll use it
<jamest> that's why I now support both :)
<dneighbo> then kde fixed license and still liked gnome but never really played with new kde
<dneighbo> then ximian/helix started up and brutalized gnome
<dneighbo> and now im a bit jaded
<dneighbo> and have played more with kde
<dneighbo> and i say both are good
<dneighbo> i prefer gnome (out of comfort), but can sit down and use kde no problem
<dneighbo> and often suggest people use kde 
<dneighbo> which i think is cool
<dneighbo> i.e. that one can bounce between kde and gnome pretty transparently on a high level
<dsmith> To me, kde is more tightly integrated, but also more closed.
<dsmith> Gnome seems looser, but more hackable
Action: dsmith doesn't actually use either gnome or kde
<dneighbo> dsmith yeah i think thats what i mean when i say gnome is more 'config' friendly
<dneighbo> the other thing i see is 'application'
<dneighbo> gnome has a lot more applications
<dneighbo> and think their apps are generally 'better' from a structure standpoint and goal standpoint
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> i find kde apps to be more 'complete' and 'polished'
<dsmith> I searched and searched on how to change the controls on a kde window.  Like the close button. Couldn't find *any* info.
<dneighbo> i.e. if i want an app that i can dig in and contribute to, its probably gonna be a gnome app
<dsmith> I agree. kde apps are more polished, but less of them.
<dsmith> THere are like 47 email clients gor gnome.
<jamest> dsmith: right click on the title bar
<jamest> configure
<jamest> window decoratoin
<dsmith> jamest: I want to make my *own* decorations/control layout.
<dneighbo> if i want an app to hand to a user i use kde app
<jcater> koffice rocks, too
<jcater> it's very slim
<dsmith> I make my kids use wordperfect and windowaker.  Not enough cpu/ram for anything else at home.
Action: dsmith is just an xterm and emacs kinf of guy
<jamest> windowmaker is nice
<dsmith> I *tried* to put kde on my home box, but it just thrashed too bad, even before any applications started.
Action: dsmith uses blackbox
<dsmith> My boss *loves* gnome.  He has all these mime types set up.
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<dsmith> He can get a msproject file in an email, and double click it.  It saves the file into somewhere on the dos partition, creates something in the startup folder.
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<dsmith> THen starts vmware.
<jbailey> Creepy.
<dsmith> It's cool keeping w2k in a box though.
<jbailey> A closed box.
<jbailey> Made of conrete.
<jbailey> s/conrete/concrete/
<dsmith> heh
<jcater> so you use vmware?
<jbailey> Wrapped in shipping tape.
<jcater> how is it?
<dsmith> *I* don't use it!
<jcater> ah
<jcater> well, does anyone here use it?
<jbailey> jcater: I've used it.  It works well.
<dsmith> My boss likes it.  It lets him interface with the "Real World".
<dsmith> Kind of like The Matrix, but inside out.
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<Yurik> re
<jcater> I need to test that out
<jcater> then I can eliminate my dual-boot
<jamest> jcater: try plex86
<jamest> bwahahaha
<reinhard> fyi i got the swiss magazine where our gnue article is printed in
<reinhard> it's a excellent magazine imho
<reinhard> of course our article ist the best one ;)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> jcater: it's even a .deb now!
<pattieja> morning
<jamest> morning
<pattieja> I can't seem to get the installation of GNUe-Forms to work
<jcater> jamest: it's SLOWWWWWWWWW
<pattieja> I've manually typed the commands at a python2.1 prompt, and it gives me these errors:
<dsmith> jamest: Hoe plex86? I apt-got it, but haven't done anything wiht ti yet.
<pattieja> File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
<pattieja> ImportError: cannot import name saxexts
<jamest> you don't have PyXML installed
<jamest> don't ask me why python xml is the way it is
<jamest> but python comes with an xml module
<jamest> then pythons xml SIG has pyXML
<jamest> which somehow links to and overrides the std xml module
<jamest> its a major pain in the rear
<pattieja> jamest: I DID download and install the PyXML RPM just like in the instructions, that's why I don't get why this error is occurring
<dsmith> You guys should be using s-expressions instead of xml.
<pattieja> is the path maybe not set properly somehow?
<pattieja> (I don't know how to configure Python either, since this is my first exposure to the language)
<jack-e> nice weekend .. cu all 
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<dneighbo> i tried plex
<dneighbo> and the debian basically said
<dneighbo> dont run this unless you want to reformat your hard drvie
<dneighbo> wehn a DEBIAN package warns me of this
<dneighbo> i generally get nervous :)
<dneighbo> so i stopped the install
<dneighbo> acutally i htin the exact message was
<dneighbo> this will toast your drive more than likely, be prepared to reinstall, rsync is your friend
<dsmith> dneighbo: Ouch!
<jamest> pattieja: hmmmm
<jamest> how did you install pyxml?
<jamest> python21 setup.py install
<jamest> ?
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<pattieja> jamest: I believe it was from RPM
<dneighbo> hmm rpm probably goes off your rpm version of python
<dneighbo> which is probably 1.5.2
<pattieja> yes, but python2-2.1.1-2 is also installed
<jcater> you should probably grab the pyxml source
<jcater> as pyxml only has rpm's for python 1.5.2 and 2.0.x
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<ra3vat> hi all
<psu> hi ra3vat
<ra3vat> hello psu
Action: jbailey is away: food
<psu> not a lot going on, it seems
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<jamest> Nancy Lee, Sun's product line manager for SunONE Webtop, told eWeek on Wednesday that some enterprise customers who were considering deploying StarOffice had expressed concern about free status of the software. 
<jamest> sigh
<jcater> we must pay
[13:23] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jcater> were you here for derek's comment about dcl yesterday?
<jcater> and the situation at his office?
<reinhard> anybody know how i can dump the table schema of a complete postgres db to a file?
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<jcater> save_db_schema??
<jcater> or pg_dump --schema-only
<reinhard> ah ok
<reinhard> thanks
<reinhard> um
<reinhard> and where do i find the file afterwards?
Action: reinhard thinks to himself "rtfm"
<jcater> hmm
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<jcater> you should have to specify the filename
<jcater> with -f 
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> crap
Action: reinhard should create some tables in his db before trying to dump it
Action: reinhard is dump himself or something like that
<reinhard> ok works
<reinhard> thanks a lot
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater is learning too
<jcater> pgsql is new to me
<jcater> I come from Oracle-land
Action: reinhard comes from no-sql c-isam (every table is two normal files) land
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<dneighbo> jcater i think you can do
<dneighbo> pg_dump -e tablename --schema-only database > filename
<dneighbo> to do a single db or
<dneighbo> pg_dump  --schema-only database > filename
<dneighbo> to dump the whole db
<dneighbo> there is option to dump w/ data
<dneighbo> and one to dump w/ data as proper INSERT strings
<jcater> um, ok
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<dneighbo>                            Long Distance Conferencing
<dneighbo>                             Only 18 Cents Per Minute
<dneighbo>                         Connects Up To 100 Participants!
<dneighbo>     No setup fees No contracts or monthly fees Call anytime, from anywhere,
<dneighbo>     to anywhere International Dial In 18 cents per minute Simplicity in set
<dneighbo>                up and administration Operator Help available 24/7
<dneighbo> what great spam...
<dneighbo> maybe we should move to just doing conference calls?
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<dneighbo> hmmm wonder if he is returning sometime over the weekend?
<dneighbo> ToyMan you here?
<ToyMan> just got back
<ToyMan> dneighbo: I'm back
<dneighbo> ah
<dneighbo> wanna go to #dstoys
<ToyMan> whazup?
Action: jbailey is back (gone 02:08:32)
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<pattieja> jamest: I took your advice and installed PyXML from source.  GNUe-Forms installed this time.
<pattieja> now what do I do?
<jamest> um
<jamest> depends
<jamest> you just want to see it work?
<pattieja> yes
<jamest> ah
<jamest> ok
<jamest> cd samples/intro
<pattieja> k
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<jamest> gfclient intro.gfd
<dneighbo> bbs meeting
<jamest> and marvel at how clever our jcater was in making a intro form :)
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<jcater> our intro form is multilingual
<jcater> it speaks english and pig-latin
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<pattieja_2> jamest: I get these error messages after doing that -
<pattieja_2> gfclient intro.gfd 
<pattieja_2> Traceback (innermost last):
<pattieja_2>   File "/usr/local/bin/gfclient", line 39, in ?
<pattieja_2>     from  gnue.forms.GFClient import *
<pattieja_2>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/GFClient.py", line 40, in ?
<pattieja_2>     from gnue.forms.GFInstance import *
<pattieja_2>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/GFInstance.py", line 39, in ?
<pattieja_2>     import gnue.common.GConfig
<pattieja_2>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/GConfig.py", line 37, in ?
<pattieja_2>     import GDataObjects
<pattieja_2>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/GDataObjects.py", line 340
<pattieja_2>     self._currentRecord += 1
<pattieja_2>                          ^
<pattieja_2> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
<dsmith> pattieja_2: I think you need a newer Python.
<pattieja> unnggh
<pattieja> k
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<dsmith> pattieja_2: What version do you have?
<pattieja> I'm running whatever came with RH 7.2
<pattieja> I know that 1.5.2 and 2.0.something and 2.1.something are installed
<dsmith> python -V
<pattieja> moment...
<pattieja> unkown option
<pattieja> unknown
<dsmith> I *think* the += stuff isn't in 1.5.x
<jamest> it's not
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> this is all because we jumped to python2
<jamest> and it's not std on any distros yet
<pattieja> dsmith: python 1.5.2
<jamest> please rerun the forms setup program like
<jamest> python2 setup.py install
<jamest> and probably the gnue-common setup program the same way
<jamest> I apologize for the problems with the install
<pattieja> that's what I did
<jamest> it is!?!?!?
<jamest> grrrr
<pattieja> yep
<jamest> please do
<jamest> more `which gfclient`
<jamest> and see what the first line reads as
<pattieja> #!/usr/bin/env python
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<jamest> sigh
<Yurik> re
<jamest> that should read 
<pattieja> hello Yurik
<jamest>  #!/usr/bin/env python2
<pattieja> poor Yurik
<pattieja> :)
<pattieja> jamest: changing ...
<jamest> now lets hope that the dependency checks didn't get confused as well :(
<Yurik> pattieja why I'm poor? :)
<Mr_You> hi
<jamest> cause you're not enjoying the smooth forms install that pattieja is enjoying
<jamest> :)
<pattieja> Yurik: Shakespeare?
<Yurik> pattieja aah :)
<pattieja> Yurik: sorry, first thing that popped into my mind
<Yurik> pattieja but it was Yorik? :)
<pattieja> yep
<pattieja> hehe
<pattieja> jamest: it's working now!
<Yurik> Two beer or not to beer. Shakesbeer :)
<Yurik> To beer or not to beer. Shakesbeer :)
<pattieja> I liked the first one better.  :)
<Yurik> Two beer or not two beer? :)
<jcater> A beer by any other name tis just as sweet
<pattieja> but I don't drink, so...
Action: Yurik likes beer very much :)))
<pattieja> ^shrug^  hehe
Action: Yurik is going to reboot.. Yurik will be back shortly
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<Yurik> re
Action: Yurik got sound in linux disabled without touching configuration... Hmm :-\\\ :((
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<Yurik> and it still works in M$ Windows.. :-\\
<jamest> pattieja: congrats!
<jamest> i think
Action: Yurik got it back! :)
Action: Yurik is listening JCSS
<pattieja> jamest: I can't get any of the other samples working
<pattieja> well at least not the geas example
<pattieja> (haven't tried any others yet)
<jamest> the geas sample is broken
<jamest> well, the geas driver is broken, the sample is fine
<jamest> i hope to have it working again next week
<jamest> the rest of the samples are 2-tier samples
<jamest> and they _should_ all work fine 
<pattieja> what is the pypgsql driver?
<jamest> ?
<jamest> it's one of the 4 postgresql drivers we support
<jamest> do you have any database systems available?
<jamest> ping
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> whaddup my niggas?
<jamest> nothign
<chillywilly> well aren't you ppl boring
Action: chillywilly notes MSOE's gnu/linux box only goes down when they add new hardware
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> gah
<chillywilly> danielb@obfuscation:~/src/cvs/gnue$ cvs up
<chillywilly> ssh: subversions.gnu.org: Temporary failure in name resolution
<chillywilly> cvs [update aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
<chillywilly> fooey
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> works now
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> must've been network gas
<chillywilly> or a 'hicup' ;)
<chillywilly> where's your daily commits at jcater?
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: jcater is sickly
<chillywilly> you know we have begun to expect them now
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> what are you doing right now then?
<chillywilly> vegging?
<jcater> no
<jcater> gnue'ing
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> and vegging
<chillywilly> you're not just saying that for da masta's benefit are you?
<jcater> I guess all the donut preservatives got to me
<chillywilly> to keep off your back
<jcater> what? 
<jcater> vegging?
<chillywilly> no
<jcater> he doesn't care about my weight
<chillywilly> gnue'ing
<chillywilly> dude
<jcater> actually, I'm sure he'd be happy if I weighed 500 lbs
<chillywilly> this is what he cares about
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<jcater> and couldn't get out of bed
<jcater> as long as I had a laptop
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> jcater: rofl
<chillywilly> he's not that cruel
<jcater> chillywilly: I know
<jcater> I'm joking
<jcater> I know masta pretty well
<chillywilly> so am I
<chillywilly> I wish I could've avoided him....but his charm is over whelming
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> yeah
<SachaS> good morning
<jcater> his "this isn't working for me" wins me over each time
<jcater> :P
<SachaS> gnue never sleeps.
<chillywilly> at 4:39pm?
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> I don't generally sleep at that time
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> I try to
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> but supervisor looks down at that
<chillywilly> f*** the man!
<jcater> ew
<chillywilly> that's my new philosophy
<jcater> no thank you
<chillywilly> not mwant to be taken literally
<chillywilly> fewl
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> self.clone()
<jcater> darn it
<jcater> one of these days I'll get that working
<chillywilly> don't they let you play with GNUe?
<jcater> I let myself play with GNUe
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> oh yea
<chillywilly> that's right
<chillywilly> you are 'the man'
Action: chillywilly hisses
<jcater> bah
<jcater> well, at least my wife thinks so
<chillywilly> the man is always tryin to keep me down
<jcater> or at least she humors me and tells me that
<jcater> sometimes I think it's the latter
<chillywilly> she has the balls?
<chillywilly> wears the pants?
<chillywilly> wields the stick?
<jcater> all wives "wear the pants"... it's just a matter of how much the husband realizes it
<jcater> yeah, she occasionally wields the stick
<jcater> I wish she'd do it more often
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> rofl
Action: jcater is trying to make chillywilly blush :)
<chillywilly> feh
Action: chillywilly is to crass to blush at such things
<jcater> :P
<chillywilly> ok, so now I got a picture of her weilding your stick and masta getting blow jobs in his office....this is just not right man
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> chillywilly: you see, there are forces in nature played out by birds and bees...
<jcater> :P
<chillywilly> I don't know anything about that
<chillywilly> I'm just an innocent little child
<chillywilly> myself
<ajmitch> *cough*
<jcater> chillywilly: it's something called sex... a wonderful experience men have that ends when they get married
<jcater> :P
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> guess I should never marry her then
<chillywilly> I can't ruin a good thing
<chillywilly> jcater: how old is your little guy?
<jcater> 3 1/2
<chillywilly> does he know python yet?
Action: chillywilly has been slacking in his son's geekly training ;)
<jcater> no
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> once I get gnurpc working and have it running the VCR
<jcater> I'm sure he'll learn it quickly
<chillywilly> lol
<dneighbo> btw: im almost that mean
<dneighbo> i wouldnt want jcater to be 500lb cause its hard to have sex when you are that big
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> heh, sure whatever
<chillywilly> you know you are really a big softie
<dneighbo> 450lb is more accurate, large enough to pretty much have to stay in bed, but at least can go to bathroom on own and enjoy company of a woman ;)
<chillywilly> scotty favorite app is GNU Paint
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch> poor kid
<chillywilly> why?
<ajmitch> let him use MS paint
<ajmitch> ;)
<chillywilly> um
<chillywilly> no
<reinhard> chillywilly: try GCompris it's really cool
<reinhard> imho
<chillywilly> ok
<reinhard> and it's a gnu project ;)
<chillywilly> cool
<ajmitch> chillywilly: you have a windows partition so you can use educational software, right?
<chillywilly> hell no
<ajmitch> ah well
<ajmitch> bbl
<chillywilly> gnu/linux is an education in itself
<dneighbo> chillywilly 
<chillywilly> dneighbo
<jcater> my kids favorite app is evolution....
<dneighbo> apt-get install junior*
<chillywilly> I know
<dneighbo> or tasksel
<reinhard> jcater: rofl
<chillywilly> debian junior
<jcater> he thinks it's cool that he can click on it and it crashes
<jcater> :P
<dneighbo> rofl
<chillywilly> that's because it is not mutt
<dneighbo> daddy, i want to play the 'blow up' game?
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> haha
<dneighbo> the blow up game?
<jcater> they could call it MINE
<jcater> MINE is not Evolution
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> yeah the one where you click the monkey and it sounds like windows are breaking
<chillywilly> reinhard: gcompris looks cool
<pattieja> is Ximian Evolution that bad?
<chillywilly> probably not anymore
<reinhard> mho is that chillywilly should write a new object model (just like what ximian does with mono)
<pattieja> I just downloaded the release 1.0 and it seems to be working ok
<reinhard> and call it "stereo"
<chillywilly> it was beta though up until recently
<reinhard> ;)
<chillywilly> but who cares supporting ximian ia baaaad
<pattieja> actually I'm running from Ximian's desktop currently 'cause that was the easiest way to get Evolution to install
<chillywilly> reinhard: ummm, I like gnu dog
<chillywilly> ;)
<pattieja> Want to be able to pitch it to clients running Outlook and say, "look, no more viruses" (or virii would probably be more accurate)
<dneighbo> until ximian violates all laws of unix
<chillywilly> reinhard: there's portbale.net you know which is part of dotGNU
<dneighbo> and introduces virii that run in user space 
<chillywilly> yea, derek
<chillywilly> like that's possible on a gnu/linux system
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<reinhard> chillywilly: i was actually only joking about the name "stereo" as opposed to "mono"
<chillywilly> they going to make a dummb kernel that has on security?
<dneighbo> um actually it is
<chillywilly> s/on/no
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<jcater> chillywilly: there's nothing unrealistic about that
<chillywilly> reinhard: I know
<dneighbo> bad ideas are bad ideas regardless of OS
<reinhard> k
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<dneighbo> for example if evolution reads html email and institutes javascript of sorts
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<chillywilly> dneighbo: well I just use mutt, simple, fast, text....what more do I need for stinking email?!?
<jcater> well, evolution wasn't targeted at the average mutt user
<chillywilly> of course not
<chillywilly> it was targted at winbows users
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<chillywilly> winblows
<pattieja> jcater: hopefully it can take desktop real estate away and move more users to Linux/*NIX
<reinhard> night all
reinhard (rm@62.47.45.239) left irc: "Everything that is worth fighting for, is worthy fighting dirty for"
<chillywilly> night
<chillywilly> sure but now we need a Free exchange 'connector' ;)
<dneighbo> im all for giving users what they want
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> certain things arent worth it
<dneighbo> for example, i dont let my kids play with matches
<dneighbo> are matches not useful?
<chillywilly> dneighbo: doesn;t matter dude th worst you can do on *NIX is trash your own files
<dneighbo> certainly they are
<dneighbo> but not in the hands of my children that dont understand the consequences fully
<chillywilly> you can't bring down the system the OS itself is secure
<dneighbo> i think that microsoft violated this law in some ways
<dneighbo> SOME people wanted things like matches
<dneighbo> that were VERY useful, but carried lots of risk and such
<dneighbo> and they applied poor judgement and gave them to kids ;)
<dneighbo> now people are getting burned
<dneighbo> both the children and those that have to 'deal' with the children
<dneighbo> i.e. i give my kids matches they may burn down MY house
<dneighbo> not just themselves
<dneighbo> my fear is that ximian might start to excercise 'poor' judgement
<chillywilly> so what?
<chillywilly> then they will fail
<chillywilly> good
<chillywilly> they suck anyway
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> btw some people have things in their userspace they dont want thrashed
<chillywilly> bastards
<chillywilly> dneighbo: how man JS scripts do you know of that can access the underlying system to a point that they can compromise things? All those marco virii are vb scripts....I think youu would have to be a moron to let some script execute on your system automagically....lets hope ximian uses some sense
<dneighbo> two things and i will stop
<chillywilly> dneighbo: btw, explain to me how components would not be the UNIX way?
<dneighbo> a. there is something called gnome-basic, it exists already
<chillywilly> small pieces that can be put to gether to do certain tasks
<dneighbo> b. that was my point (lets hope ximian uses good judgement)
<chillywilly> a component is the GUI equivalent of a pipe, imho
<dneighbo> chillywilly ok
<dneighbo> to use sed
<dneighbo> do i have to have X installed?
<dneighbo> do i ahve to ahve postgres installed?
<chillywilly> no, but you need bash
<dneighbo> well to use something like libGDA
<dneighbo> i had to have
<dneighbo> X
<chillywilly> and libreadline
<chillywilly> etc.
<dneighbo> gnome
<dneighbo> gtk
<dneighbo> the kitchen sink 
Action: Yurik bought 5 0.5l bottles of beer. Great!
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<dneighbo> to the point of INSANITY
<chillywilly> dneighbo: you look at the new architecture?
<dneighbo> im not anti dependency
<chillywilly> dneighbo: it has been fixed
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> if you 'claim to be componentized'
<dneighbo> make your components MAKE SENSE!
<dneighbo> ;)
<chillywilly> dneighbo: in fact your beloved libGDA has only 4 dependencies now
<Yurik> chillywilly did GNUe changed architecture?
<chillywilly> dneighbo: all has been addressed in the new code with GObject
<chillywilly> dneighbo: so I see Gnome as getting better
<chillywilly> I don;t like friggin X dependnecies in non-GUI code either
<chillywilly> it is STUPID
<chillywilly> just give Gnome a chance....is you look at KDE 1.x architecture it is also pretty lame
<chillywilly> s/is/if
<dneighbo> must go
<dneighbo> btw: im sorry, but i as star wars says...
<dneighbo> chancellor vice roy, i enter a vote of ' no confidence ' in the gnome foundation ....
<dneighbo> ;)
<chillywilly> but isn't redhat on there?
<chillywilly> don't you hav faith in them?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> to keep ximian from fucking it all up
<dneighbo> no
<chillywilly> of course not
<dneighbo> its like 4 to 2 ximan/redhat
<chillywilly> just go use kde
<chillywilly> you knwo you want to
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> its not about kde vs gnome to me
<jcater> chillywilly: why does it have to be kde vs gnome?
<dneighbo> its about advancing free software
<dneighbo> i think BOTH desktops have a LOT to offer
<dneighbo> i think both have a LOT to overcome to win more users
<dneighbo> i hope they BOTH succeed
<chillywilly> dneighbo: why do you not sit here and be little KDE?
<dneighbo> i dont know enough about it
<dneighbo> i have said there are thigns i dont like
<jcater> dneighbo: you are a little kde?
<chillywilly> they also have a component model
<dneighbo> for heavens sakes i printed a REAL user report
<dneighbo> that said
<chillywilly> it is called KParts
<chillywilly> and Xparts
<dneighbo> kde is crap, get this crap off my machine :)
<dneighbo> believe me if i used kde a lot i would find stuff i didnt like
<chillywilly> they just don't use corba because they couldn't find a good C++ ORB, imho ;)
<chillywilly> you just liek to bitch period
<dneighbo> i said frankly that i had 'comfort' in the familarity of gnome and so i didnt see myself converting to kde
<dneighbo> chillywilly maybe so
<chillywilly> so I will just have to learn to take it with a grian of salt
<dneighbo> but i general try to do things to support what im bitching about
<dneighbo> i would say i know i have done MORE bitching about GNUe than any one else
<dneighbo> BUT
<dneighbo> if you asked jamest, jcater and such, they would probably say that in that bitching i have made the product better
<dneighbo> believe me i submitted DETAILED bug reports to evolution team and was in irc for nearly a month
<dneighbo> thats when i learned to dislike gnome 
<dneighbo> as they have no desire to make things 'better' just to make a buck (imho)
<dneighbo> on the other hand i spent a week in galeon the first week i used it and submitted a ton of bugs and talked to developers
<dneighbo> and almost all the features of the bookmark system
<dneighbo> you see are probably a direct result of my 'bitching'
<chillywilly> I didn't say it was bad
<chillywilly> just incessant
<chillywilly> never ending
<chillywilly> 'masta-like' even
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> must go for real now
dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "[BX] Mike Tyson says BitchX BITES! Do you HEAR what I'm saying?!"
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> haha , I have pizza
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> I'll have to wai tunit he gets back to tease him
<Yurik> chillywilly but I have beer :)
<chillywilly> hehe  :)
<chillywilly> but masta is a pizza addict not a drunk ;)
<Yurik> heh
<Yurik> mmmmmm.. I like this Lvivske Premium :))))))))
<chillywilly> I defintely could use a beer
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<sxpert> hi, I have a question
<chillywilly> yes?
<sxpert> ok, RH has python 1.5 and 2.1. Last time I checked, (I have both installed), gnue failed to compile for some reason. Is the current configure smarter now about python ?
<chillywilly> we don't use configure in any of the python stuff
<chillywilly> we use a setup.py script
<chillywilly> when you say compile you mena .py -> .pyc ?
<chillywilly> s/mena/mean
<sxpert> chillywilly: yeah, whatever is needed.
<chillywilly> you do
<chillywilly> ./setup.py build
<chillywilly> ./setup.py install
<chillywilly> I think using auto* to do python stuff would be cool, but I doibt that will happen
<sxpert> that las line is as root ?
<chillywilly> we use it in GEAS though ;)
<chillywilly> yep
<Yurik> btw, gnue guys, what about distributed model in geas? does it have something like it? :)
<chillywilly> or
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> it has a corba interface
<Yurik> chillywilly so the only distribution is rpc-like? say, corba, soap, etc.?
<chillywilly> oh you mean like several servers all talking to each other?
<Yurik> chillywilly I mean building the server tier with more than one geas
<Yurik> just wondering :)
<chillywilly> you talk to it via corba
<Yurik> thanks
<chillywilly> I thin geas is the weakest link in GNUe, although I thin forms could use some cooler features
<chillywilly> but I need to play with forms some more
<sxpert> chillywilly: like, not useing wxpython/whatever and pygtk/pygnome instead ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
Action: Yurik is just wondering since today on e/as we had a very big and serious conversation on distribution :)
<chillywilly> that will happen when hell freezes over
<sxpert> wxpython sucks
<sxpert> (and is un-makeable)
<chillywilly> yea, well not many ppl here like gnome :(
<chillywilly> geas has some gnome dependencies
<chillywilly> :)
Action: Yurik don't like gnome, too :))) 
<chillywilly> orbit, glib, etc.
<sxpert> chillywilly: embrace and extend (force gnome through throats ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<Yurik> so geas can't be compiled for, say, windows without special efforts?
<chillywilly> sxpert: no one can really stop me from using gnome libs
<chillywilly> ;)
<sxpert> Yurik: geas is a server, thus should NOT run under windows ;)
<chillywilly> Yurik: yea, well I don't really care anyway, a windows server is like an oxymoron
<Yurik> sxpert why?!! it is foolish...
<chillywilly> if someone ports it to windows then fine
<sxpert> Yurik: no, it's being realistic... nowadays, there is one windows worm outbreak every week (every friday ? how strange) ;)
Action: Yurik can't understand fanatics that says that server should not run under windows :-\
<chillywilly> I'm not though
<chillywilly> windows is insecure
<chillywilly> servers are *NIX
<chillywilly> ;)
<Yurik> sxpert heh, it is a fanatism. In real words business runs windows oftenly
<chillywilly> well we aren't that fanatic
<chillywilly> our client does run on windows
<chillywilly> what mor edo you want?
Action: Yurik thinks that Windows support is a REQUIREMENT for the project of such kind 
<chillywilly> I think we will work on porting to windows but right now it is not a priority
<chillywilly> Yurik: I don't think the serverrunning on windows is a major thing
<chillywilly> feel free to port it
<chillywilly> we won't object
<chillywilly> ;)
<Yurik> chillywilly it is quite important, as I can see. I see at our company customers - ALL of them use windows and use linux rarely
<chillywilly> somebody probably will do it eventually
<chillywilly> Yurik: exactly
<Yurik> chillywilly I willn't do it - I have a lot of work in E/AS :)
<chillywilly> Yurik: but having a GNU/Linux server doesn't mean they are using "Linux" either
<chillywilly> they can use windows
<chillywilly> to their heart's content
<chillywilly> we're cool like that
<jcater> I think geas should run under windows
<jcater> I strongly think so
<Yurik> chillywilly they prefer to use windows servers, too (well, most of them)
<jcater> because I think GEAS should be portable...
<jcater> and if you can port it to windows, you
<jcater> can port it to most systems
<chillywilly> jcater: but sorry dude it's not a top priority and we do try to stay portable so that it should not be a PITA
<chillywilly> to port somewhere
Action: Yurik says: "every (well, most) of software should be portable". it is a golden rule for the developer :)
<jcater> chillywilly: nah
<chillywilly> yes, but it will not happen until someone does it
<jcater> geas is so linux-centric it's shocking :)
<sxpert> jcater: actually, it's the complete oposite... port it to windows and you're stuck in windows. It already works in all unix versions (HP, Sun, you name it)
<chillywilly> because of orbit
<chillywilly> whihc we are trying to get rid of
<chillywilly> as a deoendency
<jcater> sxpert: not hardly
<chillywilly> jcater: gnurpc should help right ;)
<jcater> if it worked on all unix versions, I'd be ecstatic
<sxpert> chillywilly: I have run "python2.1 setup.py install" in the root directory. what should I do next ?
<Yurik> btw, do you, gnue guys, plan to extend the distribution model of the whole gnue? 
<Yurik> or you suppose it good enough?
<jcater> Yurik: how do you mean?
<chillywilly> jcater: btw, nothing that I want to do will be non-portable glib already works on winblows
<Yurik> jcater as I can understand now, the distribution model of the gnue (I mean distributed computing) is quite simple...
<Yurik> orbic :)
<sxpert> chillywilly: and furthermore, orbit may eventually be ported ;)
<Yurik> quite traditional :)
<chillywilly> sxpert: yes, gnome should be portable
<sxpert> chillywilly: I have run "python2.1 setup.py install" in the root directory. what should I do next ?
<chillywilly> it is getting there
<Yurik> anyway, just wondering, too
<chillywilly> ppl just need to relax
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: Yurik is listening CATS... yeaah :)
<jcater> Yurik: not sure what you mean by distribution model?
<jcater> are you talking about ease of installation?
<Yurik> jcater the model of distributed computing
<chillywilly> how you do remote communication?
<jcater> ah
<chillywilly> liek corba, xml-rpc, soap, etc.?
<Yurik> jcater not packaging and installing :)
<jcater> I'm not sure what all we'll do in that respect
<jcater> gnurpc will be a step in the right direction
<Yurik> so you'll stay rpc-centric?
<chillywilly> jcater: I think that ppl miss the point that corba and xml-rpc and soap can be made to work together
<chillywilly> liek the orb can send xml messages instead of IIOP
<chillywilly> IIOP and xml stuff is what is really the same
<chillywilly> thos eare the competing protocols
<Yurik> xml sucks :) almost anytime :)
<Yurik> it is a subjective opinion :) I don't want to argue :)
<sxpert> Yurik: binary DCOM+/whatever crap sucks
<Yurik> first bottle of beer is finished
<sxpert> it is a subjective opinion :) I don't want to argue :)
<chillywilly> haha
<Yurik> sxpert I'm not saying about [D]COM+/.net :)
<chillywilly> we like xml here
Action: Yurik thinks that xml can be used only in some tasks, but not everywhere, as it tries to do now...
Action: sxpert thinks Yurik is wrong ;)
<Yurik> the next bottle openeed :)
Action: Yurik thinks that Yurik is right :)
Action: sxpert thinks that Yurik should check his sources and reconsider his opinions ;)
<Yurik> no, guy.. :)
Action: chillywilly thinks Yurik is drunk
<sxpert> chillywilly: heh
<Yurik> having an expirience in xml development I can it really sucks! :))
<Yurik> chillywilly I can be drunked only after 7-9 bottle of beer... but not obligatory
<Yurik> :)
<sxpert> Yurik: what kind of experience ?
<Yurik> why do you like xml so much?
<Yurik> sxpert development experience at my employments
<sxpert> chillywilly: what version of wxpython should I get ?
Action: jcater thinks xml is a tool... and like all tools, it has its uses
<sxpert> Yurik: well, all that depends on the competence of the project manager/designer ;)
<Yurik> jcater xml is not a tool. it is just a quite usual shml subset
<Yurik> jcater xml is not a tool. it is just a quite usual sgml subset
<chillywilly> ummm, sgml can be expressed in an xml DTD
<chillywilly> can't it?
<chillywilly> like html can
<sxpert> Yurik: xml is a structures information encoding protocol ;)
<chillywilly> yea
<sxpert> chillywilly: what version of wxpython should I get ?
<chillywilly> markup for your data
<Yurik> sxpert in 50% of projects I was a manager and/or designer. I can't say I'm a bad manager/designer... (My employers pays money me)
<chillywilly> sxpert: dunno ask jcater
<Yurik> sxpert just one of structures.. :)
<chillywilly> jcater: what version of wxpython does the forms require?
Action: chillywilly just uses the debian package
<Yurik> sxpert just one kind of structures.. :)
<sxpert> jcater: what version of wxwindows and wxpython do I have to install ?
<Yurik> guys, sorry for my English. It's really TOOOOO bad :)))
<jcater> I'd recommend 2.3.1
<chillywilly> no you get to define it, that's what is cool....helps to build standard formats, imho
Nick change: Zdean -> mdean
Action: Yurik understand English better than can speak it. In "Shrek" Yurik understands 90%
<jcater> Yurik: I'd say XML is very much a tool for the developer
<chillywilly> I would agree
<Yurik> jcater have you used xml hardly even in one project?
<sxpert> Yurik: well, your problem may be in the use of MsXml xml parser, which API is fucked in the head ;)
<jcater> Yurik: well, um, yeah
<chillywilly> heh
<Yurik> sxpert do you think I like Windows? You're mistaking
<chillywilly> jcater is one of the forms wuthors
<Yurik> sxpert I spoke just about managers and market :)
<chillywilly> silly
<chillywilly> plus it is cool buzz word
<Yurik> jcater and you found it VERY great?
<chillywilly> dag nabit
<jcater> Yurik: I said it had its uses
<chillywilly> you can market it baby!
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> which means it isn't a right fit in every case
Action: chillywilly pukes
<jcater> but it has its uses
<chillywilly> nothing is
<Yurik> jcater I don't argue, it has its uses
<jcater> and we find it useful
<Yurik> jcater but not everywhere!!! :))
<jcater> that was my point about it being another "tool"
<Yurik> some guys are trying to use xml everywhere, and I don't like this :)
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<chillywilly> Yurik: geas doe srun on mac os x though
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> because of neilt
<sxpert> Yurik: for example, it's great for remote RPC calls (as the parse time is a lot shorter than network latency), but is a dog for local calls
<Yurik> btw, jcater we implemented our prototype-based object model (pure object) :)))
<Yurik> btw, jcater, we implemented our prototype-based object model (pure object) :)))
<Yurik> chillywilly macosx is like unix :)
<chillywilly> well dude
<chillywilly> you want your cake and eat it too
<sxpert> Yurik: no, macOS-X is a BSD kernel with a MAC-OS-X interface...
<Yurik> sxpert :))
<Yurik> sxpert afair, macosx is mach with bsd on top + interface :)
<Yurik> aqua?
<sxpert> Yurik: mac os X is not unix (it has no idea of the difference between a normal user and a superuser :(
<Yurik> sxpert afaik, macosx server does
<Yurik> but I don't know exactly
<Yurik> I have seen Mac last in ~1998
<Yurik> here is almost no Macs
<sxpert> Yurik: MacOSX server is in fact NeXT... (thus unix)
Action: chillywilly gets to hacking
<Yurik> kewl hAcker? :)
<Yurik> :)))
<Yurik> np
Action: Yurik will be back in few minutes... just to smoke.. 
<Yurik> 02:28am... cool
<Yurik> jcater are you here?
<jcater> in and out
<Yurik> jcater do you remember our conversation
<Yurik> jcater about pure object model?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> somewhat
<jcater> so you have a working model?
<Yurik> jcater it turned that the implementation took only few hours (in Python/C) :))
<Yurik> jcater and the module is quite small :))
<neilt> yes geas runs on a mac
Action: neilt comes back from arranging cab for airport
<Yurik> jcater so the model works :)
<jcater> cool
<jcater> this is your distributed, dynamic object model, right?
<Yurik> jcater it is only a part of ddom
<Yurik> since the distribution is not specified fully yet
<jcater> what exactly does your model do?
<jcater> demonstrate the dynamic nature? or the distributed nature? or both?
<Yurik> as for now - only dynamic
<sxpert> cvs wxwindows is fuckes
<sxpert> s/fuckes/fucked
<Yurik> our distribution model is non-orthodox and thus require to solve some problems
<Yurik> but now we can create a prototype-based (pure) object environment in python :)
<Yurik> initially I thought that it will be hard to implement
<Yurik> but now I like python typeobjects :)
<jcater> :)
<Yurik> sxpert why wxwindows is fucked? :))
<sxpert> Yurik: it fails compiling (that's the CVS head though)
Action: Yurik thinks that English obsence language is quite poor :)
<sxpert> Yurik: wxgtk seems to work though
<Yurik> sxpert :))))
<jcater> sxpert: wxgtk is all you need
<Yurik> obscence I mean :)
<sxpert> I know, just tempting luck ;)
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<Yurik> btw, guys, is Sklyarov really will be free soon? 
<neilt> sxpert: so whats the difference between normal user and superuser?
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<Yurik> neilt may be their permissions? :)
<sxpert> well, normally, the normal user should not be able to fuck the system with installing shit all over (compare windows). The superuser can. That prevents most stupid virus attacks from happening (like double clicking an attachment in outlook ;)
<chillywilly> Yurik: sklyarov cut a deal
<chillywilly> he's free now
<chillywilly> but must testify at thr trial
<Yurik> chillywilly great
<chillywilly> he's going to testufy for both sides too
<Yurik> chillywilly what you mean by "both" sides?
<chillywilly> on DOJ's behalf
<sxpert> chillywilly: yeah, but the deal sucks though. sounds like a torture induced deal :(
<Yurik> do you mean Russia? There is no DMCA-like laws
<chillywilly> and ElcomSoft's behalf
<chillywilly> yes, I agree it sucks
<chillywilly> but at least he finally gets to go home
Action: Yurik is wondering how USA (FBI?) is innormal thing that it tries to judge scientifician.. :-\ :)
<sxpert> Yurik: the fbi is like a state in the state (compare KGB)
<Yurik> sxpert Soviet KGB differs from the current russians or ukranians
<Yurik> :)
<sxpert> Yurik: hem...
<Yurik> but the soviet KGB was REALLY GREAT thing (and TOO BAD)
<Yurik> but here is no USSR now, and it is great :))
<Yurik> sxpert is wanadoo a "national" french internet provider? 
<sxpert> Yurik: wanadoo is the evil France Telecom (not much of a choice here :(
<sxpert> Yurik: they are using microsoft like tactics to prevent others in the Pro-DSL market :(
<Yurik> sxpert it is bad... J'etais a Paris pendant quatre mois, mais je ne me rapelle pas Wanadoo :(
<Yurik> I know, my French is awfull :))
<sxpert> Yurik: well, that's actually perfect french ;)
<Yurik> sxpert indeed?
<sxpert> Yurik: yeah.
<Yurik> wow :)
<Yurik> but I've used a vocabulary for this phrase :(( :))
<Yurik> for some of this phrase..
<Yurik> for part of this phrase..
<sxpert> Yurik: you mean, a dictionnary ?
<Yurik> sxpert yep
<sxpert> Yurik: you can skip french classes, however, english classes would be necessary ;)
Action: Yurik likes Paris *very* much and wanna get back there...
<Yurik> :)))))
<sxpert> Yurik: I hate this idiot ISP ;)
<Yurik> sxpert wanadoo?
<sxpert> they sell me a 1000/128 DSL for 150 EUR (and that's supposed to be the pro-thing) and I barely transfer 60Kb/s :(
<Yurik> Est-ce que des universites sont reliees a Wanadoo, aussi?
<sxpert> Yurik: non, a RENATER, qui est le fournisseur des facs. ils sont relies a geant, qui est un backbone 10Gb/s
<Yurik> :)
<Yurik> ici dans Ukraine nous n'avons aucun monopole Internet, seulement de telecommunication un :) 
<sxpert> Yurik: je comprends pourquoi cela ne te pose pas de problemes d'utiliser windows: les ukrainiens se foutent eperduement de Microsoft ;)
<Yurik>  desole, maintenant je ne puis pas vous comprendre entierement
<Yurik> :)
Action: Yurik that his french is bad... :(((
Action: Yurik thinks that his french is bad... :(((
<sxpert> ukrainians don't mind using windows as they don't give a fuck about Microsoft
<sxpert> read: don't give any $$$
<jcater> parle vous english
<jcater> j/k
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> not for you
<chillywilly> bitch
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> don't feel bad
<chillywilly> I am calling everyone a bitch now
<chillywilly> it is my pet word for th rnight
<chillywilly> bitch
[19:23] Last message repeated 6 time(s).
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
[19:23] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
[19:23] Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
[19:23] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<Yurik> :))))))))
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
[19:23] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> bitch
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> bitch
<chillywilly> there
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
<chillywilly> 19 bitches in here
<sxpert> chillywilly: bitch
[19:23] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<Yurik> sxpert in fact, we're not giving $$$ to Microsoft (many of us :)), but now our government tries to stop it
<Yurik> but many of us use pirate versions of any commercial software
<chillywilly> feh
<chillywilly> you equate copying softwrae to lloting and stealing anf attacking ships?
<chillywilly> looting
<chillywilly> a/anf/and
<chillywilly> s/anf/and
<sxpert> Yurik: y'all use Linux when that shit happens ;)
<chillywilly> just use it anyway
<chillywilly> that's even better
<Yurik> sxpert you're right, there many people saying the same :)
<chillywilly> then M$ is not even in the equation
<chillywilly> and they will get absolutely nothing and you won't be their bitch
<Yurik> sxpert even internet and game cafes thinking about to switch to linux :)
<chillywilly> s/and/AND
<sxpert> Yurik: good for them... they should switch to linux before Microsoft even sets foot there ;)
<Yurik> sxpert btw, how is pirate software used in France, or most of french enterprises and people uses legal versions :)
<Yurik> sxpert ?
<Yurik> sxpert they are using microsoft products already. mostly illegal (pirate)
<sxpert> Yurik: yeah, otherwise they get kicked in the butt by the code police ;)
<chillywilly> haw
<Yurik> sxpert :))) Ukraine just started police methods to stop the pirate software distribution :)
<chillywilly> the code nazis
<sxpert> chillywilly: WHATEVER
<Yurik> sxpert :))) Ukraine just started using police methods to stop the pirate software distribution :)
<chillywilly> er?
<Yurik> in fact, guys,
<sxpert> chillywilly: uh, my caps was stuck (no, really)
<chillywilly> sxpert: *cough*
<Yurik> I can buye illegal (pirate) software legally in the shop near my office (in 10 minutes), and it seems to be legally! :)
<Yurik> but of course its pirate
<chillywilly> why not just choose the software that lets you copy it and take a stand for the freedom you really deserve
<Yurik> but is a shop in the center of the city :)
<sxpert> they just busted a ring of 30 ppl selling fake sat-tv cards and fake "smart" credit-cards
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<Yurik> I wanna to use linux here everywhere... but.. it requires some time to be implemented in the reality :)
<chillywilly> Yurik: have you really done an analysis?
<chillywilly> Yurik: you own a company right?
<Yurik> btw, any cd disk with pirate software costs ~$2.5 :))
<chillywilly> or was that someone else
<Yurik> chillywilly which analysis?
<chillywilly> on switching to Free Software
<Yurik> chillywilly no I don't own company rights, I'm just an employee
<chillywilly> oh that was someone else that I am thinking of
<Yurik> and Windows XP appeared here before it was officially released :))))))))))
<Yurik> I think it was an oem version
<Yurik> but I see a progress - in this shop where I can buy illegal software, now I can buy *BSD, Linux, QNS RTP :))) really
<Yurik> s/QNS/QNX/g
<chillywilly> cool
<Yurik> and even Mac OS X (but, course, illegal :)
<sxpert> should I install the opengl thing too ?
<Yurik> its too strange for our country since here is almost no Macs :)
<sxpert> Yurik: repeat after me "*BSD and Linux are FREE"
<Yurik> sxpert :))))) I know :) but here is a lot of people that thinks that the Microsoft is a singular alternative and don't know *BSD, Linux, and so on :)))
<Yurik> and even if they heared something about Linux, they say : "Oh... Linux... How can I use it?" :))))))))))))
<sxpert> Yurik: they have to be _educated_ ;)
<sxpert> Yurik: thank you for accepting the mission as an educator
Action: sxpert hides
<Yurik> :)))
<Yurik> even my bosses don't want to switch to linux... but use for corporate router&mail&other and for hosting :)
<Yurik> even my bosses don't want to switch to linux... but use it for corporate router&mail&other and for hosting :)
<Yurik> the one advantage that mostly all providers use Linux or *BSD :)
<Yurik> sxpert why do you hiding? :)))
<Yurik> if here is nobody chatting, i'll switch to specifying and coding e/as :)))))))
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<chillywilly> hi Maniac
<Maniac> sup 
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<Yurik> re
<chillywilly> ello
<chillywilly> Maniac: hacking ;)
<Yurik> I was disconnected :( pizdets, khuynya :)
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<neilt> ok i am late figuring this all out
<neilt> but now i have to do a checkout and distroy my cvs tree
<neilt> because of some change made by whom
<chillywilly> subversions admins
<neilt> done
<neilt>                      PLEASE STOP USING THIS REPOSITORY
<neilt>     The subversions.gnu.org:/cvs repository will become obsolete.
<chillywilly> use /cvsroot/gnue
<neilt> how can i keep my current tree
<chillywilly> I had to do it too
<jcater> yeah, we all did
<jcater> like chillywilly said, just change your reference to /cvsroot instead of either /cvs or /home/cvs
<chillywilly> neilt: you have unched in changes?
<chillywilly> unchecked
<jcater> this shouldn't affect your tree... I  didn't have to recheck out
<neilt> no i just did a commit
<neilt> jcater:  ok just change the logon
<chillywilly> jcater: umm, why?
<neilt> and use the same tree
<chillywilly> how did you fix it?
Action: chillywilly just moved the old one and pulled new
<chillywilly> jcater: did you hav Root in the CVS dir?
<chillywilly> hack
<jcater> ??
<jcater> I just changed my cvs login statement
<chillywilly> oooh
<jcater> and all my existing trees worked
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<chillywilly> I haven't ever done a login
<chillywilly> I use ssh
<chillywilly> don;t you?
<chillywilly> you use pserver?
<jcater> I use ssh
<jcater> well I changed my environment then :)
<chillywilly> cvs -d :ext:subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/gnu co gnue
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> maybe I did do a login
<chillywilly> many many moons ago
<jcater> I chnaged my CVSROOT env variable
<jcater> :P
<chillywilly> is saves it in your cvspass or whatever after the first time
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> I got that pointing at my locla cvs
<chillywilly> local
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> man I gotta get some hacking done
<neilt> jcater: thats i'm in the process of trying that
<neilt> s/thats/thanks/
<chillywilly> did I ever mantion that debian unstable rock my socks?
Action: chillywilly is now getting gnome 2 pakcages from sid
<chillywilly> weeee
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<jcater> geez
<jcater> OPN really has issues tonight
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--- Sat Dec 15 2001