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SachaS (sacha@203.190.196.98) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds neilt (~neilt@dialup-65.57.11.194.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. hello all Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly yo neilt yep sup church is what is about to be up ;) why you up so early? happen to be back in chicago and have not adjusted to new time zone where were you before? washington dc we are moving there oh why? decided to take offer that i could not refuse a job? i have been independent for a few years and a client said please please please so I am now CIO/VP Supply Chain Operations for http://www.teach12.com what does this mean for your GNUe coding? not sure yea will they let you code on GNUe ;) yes, if i have time they like the idea of GNUe the Problem is time so why are you going to work for the man? ;) lots of zeros purley capitalistic reason and its a great company and they are great people check the (sucky) web site out that will be changing quickly already loaded but look at the content who uses it? universities? or just anyone? individuals we are a direct marketing catalog company customers are university grads or other upscale folks that just want to re-learn something where the CS stuff? ;) CS? computer science stuff you should already know that CS types are not interested in real knowledge stuff I don't believe that to be true the target audience is too small for just pure cs stuff :) j/k about the real knowledge what exactly will you be doing? just business junk? not sure what you mean by business junk chillywilly_ (~danielb@d172.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. not sure what you mean by business junk i.e., will you get to code ;) or not nope, just manage for the most part chillywilly (danielb@d180.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly coding does not pay enough heh you invest at all neilt? yes in what? how much is enough neilt? at one time that was my full time profession, using my own money is there such a thing? its not a matter of amount or how much every one has to work so you might as well get paid as much as possible for working the work itself does not justify the amount its the benefit you provide that justifies the amount what sorta stuff were you doing for them when you were on your own? i reorganized their manufacturing system by removing manufactuing schedule and manufacturing to demand using Kanban relayed out the manufacturing flow reorganized all duties so now that you are top dog you can hook me up wiht a job right ;)...j/k :) unfortunately we dont hire programmers or i would try chillywilly: i thought you have a job? reinhard: heh, not doing anything useful it is just some money that is all that's a question of the point of view if it feeds you it's at least useful for you :) nothing to dow ith computers nothing that excites me a waste of my skills hmmm... neilt: you're using asp on the site who wrote that? Action: reinhard thinks what would be the best use of chillywilly's skills ... complaining ... ... bitching ... hehe ... telling others what to do ... chillywilly: it was oursourced trout slapping? outsourced politician? j/k ok, that was probably not nice reinhard chillywilly: was just teasing Action: chillywilly wields the trout i know you are a good programmer I just don't really want to be owned by the man call me crazy chillywilly: believe me as a self employed you are less free in most respects than an employed you are not "owned" by your boss, but you are "owned" by your customers yes, but why you should I do all th wwokr and let him get rihc off of it? which can be a lot more brutal fuck that making money on your own, requires an opportunity reinhard: you can be indepedent and be a members of freedevelopers ;) working for someone else gives you opportunity and time to find the your own opportunities woohoo, it might pay in a year or two neilt: 101% true this was exactly the case for me :) chillywilly: re making your boss rich ajmitch: ummm, you know it is getting closer than that i have learned to look at myself not at the others in that respect I just think the whole corporate structure in not suited for the Information Age I don't want to promote coporate kingdoms so if i can do a job where i earn $40 and make nobody rich or if i can do a job where i earn $50 and make my boss rich i will take the latter a choice of masters is noe choice at all neilt (neilt@dialup-65.57.11.194.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds coporations over here are above the law in a lot of repects look at M$ they got a little slap on the wrist but did they really do anything about it? nope neilt (~neilt@dialup-65.56.129.117.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. 207.217.77.82 M$ will get a very big slap with a huge trout within the next 5 years i guess but _not_ from a court reinhard: yes, but the fact remains that the gov't is bought ans not doing their job ah well Action: reinhard thinks it's an advantage to live in a country where we have learned to not count on the government :) Action: neilt thinks all americans should learn that also whatever, I don't count on them for anything they are useless as long as the government does not restrict me and I can provide for my family then the basics are met Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away then i can think about the big picture stuff visitor arrived they are restricitng you by allowing M$ to continue its strangle hold on the market but you're not in business for yourself anymore, so I guess it doesn't matter Nick change: neilt -> neil-away kewl you guys hear about Free Software Magazine? http://news.gnome.org/gnome-news/gnome-news/1008360958/ we need a GNUE article in the mag Action: chillywilly pokes neil-away ;) Action: chillywilly is away: church neil-away (neilt@dialup-65.56.129.117.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds mdean (mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds alexey_home (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. rm-away (rm@62.47.45.239) left irc: "If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody" bigbrother joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "um my gnue tree is bigger than your gnue tree" jbailey (~jbailey@Toronto-HSE-ppp3639563.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey_home (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" alexey_home (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey_home (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: Remote closed the connection fil_c (username@host213-1-131-217.btinternet.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds fil_c (~username@host213-122-202-227.btinternet.com) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey_home (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.239) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey_home (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" alexey_home (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey_home (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" hi all/any Kernel Cousins #7 is up http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/latest.html Due to overwhelming demand (i.e. chillywilly asked) I am now including IRC when I have the time (which seems to be about half the time at the moment) psu: too cool please add me to the list of demanders :) ;-) Catching up on some church stuff today Action: psu is, for his sins, treasurer of his local church and eagerly awaiting GNUe Financials Donation Register ;-) Actually, you could probably hack CRM psu: Treasurer? You must've sined badly.. I've seen the work that the treasurers do at my church and it looks positively like penance. It's not too bad. We don't have a church building, so that cuts down on the bills to pay No heat, light, repairs etc just a monthly cheque to the school we meet in Spent most of the afternoon going through the old records Yeah, but if you've been around awhile then you still have building fund, endowments, cheritable donations (and whatever hassle the local tax laws require) It's a nice new church - founded 1994 IIRC so no-one's died and left us anything yet ;-) mainly young families, so hopefully not likely too soon either (both from their point of view and mine) That's cool. Being doing some tax forms this afternoon Should be getting a Ł900 cheque back from Inland Revenue just after Xmas My first church (where I was eventually a board member) was a spin off from a larger congregation, so they made a nice donation to our building fund, and we almost immediately had two people die on us - So we had that right from the beginning. The church I'm at now has been around for 150 years, has building, staff, and all that. The accounting looks like a nightmare. We are beginning to seriously think about a building How many members? about 90 on electoral roll typically 50-60 per week but higher at the moment So, about 40 pledging units? That's a good start. Big issue is meeting our payments to the diocese On average, churches in this area pay about 75% of what they are meant to to the diocese We are about 35% ;-( Does the diocese at least help with things like funding for the building in exchange for that? That's a huge amount... Thankfully, response to the last round of appeals was very good diocese pays for the vicar, plus the vicarage plus central costs of diocese I don't know those words... (grabbing a terminal window with dict) vicar = minister ah, okay. That's not obvious from the definition in dict. *sigh* Ah, okay, that explains why it's so high. the only cost of the vicarge I am responsible for is the water bill historical anomoly Our congregations handle the compensation package for the minister locally so our APF (what we pay to the denomination) is fixed at about $100/person Things could be even more complicated in that we are officially an Ecumenical Partnership Church (i.e. both Church of England and Methodist) but for financial matters, we just go by C of E rules How did such a young church wind up with two parent organizations? it was founded as such from the start Where you have churches on new housing areas it's quite common (well, not unusual) to do them as ecumenical churches 1 denomination will be the lead, but other denominations have equal status of course, denominations need to be fairly compatible I hadn't realized that CofE and Methodist would have sufficiently compatable theology for that to work long term. John Wesley always saw himself as C of E, even if the C of E didn't! Almost re-merged in the 1960s I would guess (bringing this back on topic) that's it's similar to "free software" vs "open source" My knowledge of specific Christian history is quite limited. Can I infer that Wesley is a Methodist founder? different theology, but treading the same road together yes - Methodism started as just a "method" of main C of E Action: psu wonders if there is a python joke in there somewhere Cool. =) What? Isn't all of python a joke? Action: jbailey hides. Yes, a cruel joke! I'm now up to about 60 on planned giving fil_c (username@host213-122-202-227.btinternet.com) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) of which about half are by Standing Order (i.e. their bank pays our bank auto every month) Action: psu feels like an American tele-evangalist I'll be asking them for credit card #s next... I was thinknig about getting my church setup for credit card. We could probably get a non-profit discount on the bank charges, and it would be cool to collect airmiles. =) In UK, banks will give you free banking for charities of you hunt around but for CCs I would be stuck with the normal 2%(?) admin charge If that got people on standing order, would it be worth it? =) Most small charities (like us!) probably just use Standing Order (if that) Larger national charities seem to use Direct Debit (same as the utility companies) jbailey - Standing Order gives me all the benefits of CC with none of the hassle. what religion do you practice psu? I don;t believe US banks offer such a facility Church of England *and* Methodist we are an Ecumenical Partnership Church jbailey: since when do you go to church? Action: psu has a cool letterhead with *both* logos on ;-) church of england is what? protestant? yep - ever since Henry VII protested that the Pope wouldn't give him a divorce chillywilly: Err... 11 years? Action: chillywilly attends Northwest Baptist Church Action: psu always finds it slight ironic that all the difficulties C of E has with divorce when it wouldn't exist otherwise ;-) jbailey: yea, but it's not a christian church right? it's some other thing chillywilly: Correct, not Christian. Unitarian Universalist. (or just Unitarian for the Brits..) which basically mean you believe in whatever is conveinient right? whatever worls for you UK banks make it very easy to suck money out of people's accounts http://www.directdebit.co.uk/ psu: is C of E evangelical or more like the roman Catholic church? chillywilly: That's a fairly harsh description. C of E is tremendously varied some churches very evangelical, jbailey: yes, well I believe you've told me enough about it before and I found it to be no better than a lot fo new age b.s. others very high church "smells and bells" Action: chillywilly is a harsh individual chillywilly: I think it's lovely that you feel like spending your time insulting my religion. looked as if it was going to split 10 years ago over women priests but didn't I don't feel compelled to defend it to you. jbailey: doesn't matter chillywilly: Exactly. jbailey: I still like you psu: cool you have women priests? psu: that's a pretty cool thing imho chillywilly: And I'm pleased that we can still work together and be friends. But I will ask you to kindly not describe my religion as either "New Age" (We're over 400 years old, more than many others can claim) or "bullshit". It's hard for me to simple stand by and ignore that. jbailey: yes, but you don't really believe in anything so it bothers me that you actually cal yourself a chruch when you say that ppl can do whatever wokrs for them wasn't that how you described it? Original compromise was that parishes could decide whether to have women priests or not After 10 years, most opposition has pretty much died away Parishes have discovered that, when recruiting new minister, "no women priests" not only deters all the women (natch) but also most male priests as well just one of those old catholic rules that I find to be a bit stupid haha nice quote psu fil_c (~username@host213-122-193-129.btinternet.com) joined #gnuenterprise. good job on the KC you rule :) thanx It got boring not doing IRC so I will include IRC when I have the time Some weeks, not including IRC = blank Cousin which is obviously stupid hey whatever you can do is cool commiting to do all of IRC every week was fine some weeks, a pain others sorta like "I *must* do 50 CVS commits a week" this way is more sustainable hrrrm I don't remember jcater talking about 2-tier btw, I think 2-tier sucks ;P you need some objects up in there ;) 2-tier has it's place this is what is so disturbing ansd why we get into such fights about there are those of here that think 2-tier solution is acceptable, but you go and change your db tables and voila your app is broken (probably in the dustbin, afaik) Problem is keeping client & server in sync well doing our senior design porject all I remember is everyone changing the damn tables and us having to rewrite stuff Yeah, I remember Larry Ellison's speech I was going nuts saying basically 2-tier is crap, you have to be nuts to use it usual Ellison hyperbole I think so too, however some ppl are old school (i.e. basically right, but bluntly overstated) I think 2-tier app is good for a quick fix and I plan to do it for an app until GEAS is ready We had just implemeted Oracle Financials as 2-tier so that didn't go down too well ;-) ah well The rationale for 2-tier is impeccible (sp?) time for lunch which is you've got powerful desktop PCs 2-tier has a pretty narrow definition, doesn't it? and should use that power Which works fine, until your first upgrade nickr: basically you hit at the database there's nothing in between all the logic is in the app? Action: psu 's last org had to upgrade 400 client PCs in a week to get Y2K compliant that was all the IT dept (all of them) did that week nickr: yea, I guess so but you could also have it be one app but split into layers/modules but if you have your app domain layer talk directly to the databse layer then it is 2-tier imho even with a db abstraction we had to have a "reverse priority list" anyway I am hungry so that accountancy got theirs done Fri afternoon Action: chillywilly is away: lunch Area offices earlier in the week and were without Financials for 3-4 days having layering in the app sure would make moving to n-tier easier. Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:16:49) "The thread degenerated into a good-natured feud over how difficult the GNUe Forms code was to read, and whose fault this (and everything else) was. " hehe blowfish (~x@pD9006E03.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi ello hey is there any comparison between gnue and compiere? psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: Ping timeout: 180 seconds compiere? I've never heard of that either hey i just realized that thr reason GNU guys like recursive acronyms is because lisp is a recursive functional langauge doh Heh www.compiere.org Finally figured out that one eh? psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. its java based like linux kontor but seems to feature a more active development than lk :) blowfish: ok, there's one big difference then....we aren't big fans of Java ;) we use python for a lot of things though and the gnue page is nicer :) fine :) but that isnt the only difference i think? also from looking at the site they have cusomt solutions already in place blowfish - I remember da masta talking about this http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20011117_3.html#1 we are building a framework that can be adapted to any type of enterprise hrm the screenshot looks like a webbrowser.. maybe its more like a web-solution basically he felt comp were going after the peachtree/Sage market we are more ambitious - want to take on the J-BOPS JD Edwards, baan, oracle, peoplesoft, sap of course, we have a long way to go ;-) Action: psu = FAQbot heheh Heh. oh... i hope it will never end like sap *g* well we don't plan for it to act lile sap, but we do want to compete eventually ;) s/lile/like burger king - have it your way sap - have it our way ;-) gnue - have it any way you want ;-) to be fair We are using commercial products to speed up development and to concentrate on application development rather than tool development. Our mid-term strategy is to replace the InetSoft and ILOG product; Depending on resources, we plan to make Compiere also available on PostgreSQL as an Open Source alternative. see, we are concentrating on tools right now (although, to be fair, I am not known for being fair) then the apps will come SAP is aimed at big organisations cause they're the only ones can afford it ;-) GNUe, as free software (free as in speech) ok but it seems quite usable right now... when do u think gnue will be ready for production use? will be more flexible and suitable for SMEs as well SME = small to medium enterprises bf - this is our achilles heel we are a volunteer project so can't sensibly put a timeline together