[00:02] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
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<dnZzzz> http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/12/17/1750227.shtml
<Mr_You> yeah I saw that, found one mention GNUe
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<ajmitch> yp psu
<ajmitch> hi
<psu> hi
<psu> just a quick check in this morning
<psu> grab the log for yesterday
<psu> and start grepping
<ajmitch> for?
<ajmitch> i didn't think you did irc logs :)
<psu> when I have time
<psu> when I can be bothered 
<psu> or just when ever
<psu> currently batting about 0.200 for this week
<ajmitch> ok
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<mav> anyone alive in here? this is an incredibly exciting project and I'd like to get involved
<mav> (I know I know - mail info@gnue.org :)
<mav> just like to chat to someone involved
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<robbie> well i learn of new gnu projects every day :)
<robbie> i never heard fo you guys before
Action: mav just learned of this today as well :)
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<jamest> reinhard: you here?
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Action: dsmith is away: off to work
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<ToyMan> I assume you guys are tracking the /. thread on accounting software?
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<ToyMan> hmm. I notice that Freemoney doesn't include you guys in their links.. http://www.freemoney.org/others.epl
<ToyMan> links to other open source accnt prgms, that is.
Action: ToyMan put in a plug for gnue on /.
<ToyMan> why is it that everything I post at /. gets modded at '1'?
<jamest> dunno
<jamest> didn't notice the /. accounting story
<jamest> thanks for the plug though
<ToyMan> gnue is referenced a couple of times
<ToyMan> lot's of pointers to sql ledger
<ToyMan> and..MoneyDance..just looked at their site and it doesn't look like much is happening there
<jamest> i'll check out the story
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<jcater> morning all
<ToyMan> morning jcater, see the /. article?
<ToyMan> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/12/17/1750227&mode=thread
<jcater> yeah, saw that yesterday
<jcater> interesting
<jcater> cool
<jcater> we are listed
<jcater> have we been slashdotted yet?
<jamest> lol
<jamest> i doubt it
<ToyMan> heh, not that I can tell.  you guys graph connects to the web site?
<jamest> yip
<jamest> lol
<jamest> our traffic went up a bit :)
<ToyMan> I *definately* need to transfer my data..Access is running wild
<ToyMan> a 2MB db expands to 20MB in a couple of hours..
<ToyMan> I have to keep compacting and repairing to keep the damn thing running
<grib> ToyMan: what's freemoney?  my dns can't find freemoney.org
<ToyMan> stupid db
<ToyMan> http://www.freemoney.org/
<ToyMan> that's the address
<ToyMan> http://www.freemoney.org/index.epl
<grib> they must be slashdotted.  that URL is dead to me.
<grib> maybe it will work a little later. 
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<jamest> sorry, users
<jcater> I'd be sorry too
<jcater> those darn users
<jamest> it was about 40000 hits
<jamest> 3-5 times normal but about 1/2 a release day traffic load
<jamest> jcater: :)
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<jcater> mmm
<jcater> I love december
<jcater> everyone brings food in for two weeks
<jcater> mmm
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<ra3vat> hi all
<dneighbo> i posted teh accounting story from slashdot late last night here but no one was around :)
<dneighbo> sql-ledger got the most mention
<dneighbo> we were only mentioned ONE time when i looked
<dneighbo> at about 11pm my time last night
<dneighbo> i was tempted to email slash folks and give some more info, but figured we couldnt handle the load
<jamest> carefull jcater - don't want masta's dreams of a 350lb coder to come true
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> btw i laughed at an article in a trade mag (cant recall which one)
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<dneighbo> it had a full (linux is sleeping article)
<dneighbo> about how the hype of linux has died but the implementation has begun
<dsmith> dneighbo: Don't sql-ledger and gnuenterprise have different (can't think of a good word here, targets?) ?
<dneighbo> i found it funny that they said application space is still dead but starting to grow
<dneighbo> here is the humorous part
<dneighbo> a. businesses are waiting for 'shrink wrap applications' that just work, not tools to make something that work.  Linux has lots of tools but no apps.
<dneighbo> then two sentences later
<dneighbo> b. because there are not shrink wrap applications small and medium size businesses cant get the software they need to tailor to their unique processes.
<dneighbo> now i had to scratch my head
<dneighbo> they have unique processes, BUT a shrink wrap package solves their needs?
<dneighbo> im still trying to figure that one out :)
<dneighbo> dsmith : i see them as vastly different audiences
<dneighbo> i dont believe in web applications personally (but thats just me)
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<dneighbo> and most of what i see as our 'target' market wouldnt be 'productive' with a web application
<dneighbo> a prime example
<dneighbo> we use DCL here at work its all web based
<dneighbo> just yesterday my boss came to me and said is there a way i can view lots of Work Orders at one time and edit them in something more like a spreadsheet fashion
<dneighbo> i.e. his work order management volume has EXCEEDED a web interface
<dneighbo> now true we could cue up a ton of records in a web browser for him, but because of state and other things
<dneighbo> this becomes much more of a pain to manage
<dneighbo> the good news is it should accelerate development of gnue frontends to DCL ;)
<dneighbo> something like web based accounting sounds pretty ok 
<dneighbo> but when i think of LDC who might create 100 or 200 invoices a day
<dneighbo> i cant imagine them doing it in a web UI
<dneighbo> i cant imagine reconciling them in a web UI
<dneighbo> ToyMan thanks for your kind words on slashdot
<dneighbo> at least we didnt get brutally raped there
<jamest> you didn't see that post from madgoat@violator.net ?
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<dsmith> dneighbo: Yes. I hear what you are saying.
<dneighbo> jamest : rofl
<dsmith> dneighbo: The web interface is wonderful though.  It's great for things like "network appliances" without a display or keyboard.
<dneighbo> jamest / jcater btw are you here?
<dsmith> dneighbo: Web is good for portablilty (any client).
<dneighbo> as i have a slightly public flame
<jamest> i'm here
<jcater> dneighbo: no, we're not here
<jamest> wait a sec though
<jcater> these are bots we've programmed
<dneighbo> gnu has pushed that 'we play nicely' with other gnu projects (evidenced of meetings)
<dneighbo> but just to let you know they informed me they made sql-ledger a gnu project
<dneighbo> and will be trying to using it for their own accounting
Action: jamest easily puts himself into the 'ignore masta' mode after months of practice
<jamest> ok, fire away
<dneighbo> and will be putting up an ecommerce site
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Action: dneighbo wonders how they are gonna do that emacs interface.... (that we were REQUIRED to do)
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<dneighbo> i forgot to mention this as brad told me about it after last meeting
<jamest> ah, but its web based
Action: dsmith is away: cheep chineeze!
<jamest> and emacs has a web browser
<jamest> so it's in emacs
<dneighbo> but after seeing htis and then some 'links' to it from slashdot has me a bit irrated
<jcater> hmm
<jamest> the flat file backend is going to be a biotch :)
<jcater> maybe I need to look at sql-ledger
<dneighbo> he did say that if we had something that they could use today they would
<dneighbo> and that they would upgrade to gnue
<dneighbo> i felt like saying um 8 months ago we offerred to use the tools we DO have to make you a solution
<dneighbo> and you told us no thanks unless you can write it in emacs and use a flat xml file DB
<dneighbo> anyhow
<dneighbo> jcater: oh i looked at sql-ledger
<pattieja> dneighbo: me too
<dneighbo> and over the holidays you will see a gnue equivalent
<dneighbo> to shut people up
<pattieja> dneighbo: hehe
<pattieja> morning, by the way
<dneighbo> when i say equivalent i mean i will probably use their tables and everything :)
<jamest> masta going to kode?
<dneighbo> a straight rip, just to say THE TOOLS HERE WORK, you just have to be willing to USE them :)
<dneighbo> as they 'gnue is great, but has long way to go' or 'gnue is good but they are still too immature' is irrating in the context
<dneighbo> are we still infants (absolutely)
<dneighbo> are we still a long way from where we want to be (surely)
<dneighbo> but do we have things that are VERY USEFUL right now TODAY (YES YES YES)
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> actually scratch that...
<dneighbo> ToyMan expect a conversion
<dneighbo> i would rather send out two press releases by end of january
<dneighbo> 1. for a call center
<dneighbo> 2. for a manufacturing implementation
<dneighbo> so when people say 'gnue is still too young' i can just point them to the customers :)
<jamest> go dneighbo!
<jamest> wait....this typically ends up with bug reports/feature requests
<dneighbo> rofl
Action: jamest runs for cover
<dneighbo> you know what i kind of like jermey allison :)
<jcater> who?
<jamest> samba dude
<jamest> works at SGI IIRC
<jamest> not sure what dneighbo likes about him, maybe his smile
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> well didnt know much about him
<dneighbo> but there was a blow up on the wx list by him
<dneighbo> i exchanged email for a bit with him on things to clarify his point (which i agree now, i had incorrect context at first)
<dneighbo> he is pretty level headed guy for the 'fame' so to speak he has
<dneighbo> most of the guys that are parts of big projects are kind of jerks
<jamest> did I get his bio right?
<dneighbo> yeah dont know if he is at SGI or not
<dneighbo> he was at VALinux
<dneighbo> er VASoftware, but who knows now :)
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<jamest> madlocke!
<jamest> just the man
<madlocke> hi...
<jamest> do you have an account on savannah setup?
<madlocke> sorry... maybe you read it in the logs... phone line was down...
<madlocke> _
<madlocke> ?
<madlocke> sorry don't know your servers yet
<jamest> ah, savannah.gnu.org
<jamest> if you setup a user account there and give it a ssh key
<jamest> we can get your cvs access up and running
<jamest> if you're still interested in working more on UI
<madlocke> sure... worked on it the last days...
<madlocke> just was not able to connect to internet..
<jamest> ah, cool
<jamest> IIRC you turned in the copyright paperwork ages ago
<madlocke> yep
<jamest> Michael Maluck isn't it?
<madlocke> yep
<madlocke> hey i am getting mails from nobody... erm nobody@gnu.org ;)
<madlocke> ok... registered to savannah
<jamest> did you setup a ssh key
<madlocke> how to?
<jamest> it's on the user preferences page
<jamest> at the bottom
<madlocke> ah found
<madlocke> ok
<madlocke> hope i did everything correctly :)
<jamest> me too :)
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<dneighbo> from sql-ledger todo list
<dneighbo> Native GUI interface  perl/Tk; create a more interactive application; already started. 
<ToyMan> hey dneighbo
<dneighbo> hi ToyMan 
<dneighbo> what is your schedule this week?
<ToyMan> i've got some time...
<dneighbo> im fired up, and ready to really start gutting things
<ToyMan> heh, my access db could USE that
<dneighbo> btw: how do you do payroll currently?
<ToyMan> through a DOS based app, NewViews
<ToyMan> that
<dneighbo> hmmmm
<dneighbo> you like it?
<ToyMan> that's doing all the GL stuff and payroll and AP
<ToyMan> no
<dneighbo> ah
<ToyMan> it was good 8 years ago
<dneighbo> goodie, we can replace that too some day :)
<dneighbo> do you do direct deposit?
<ToyMan> high on the list
<madlocke> jamest: i found a lot of request* events. is there a list of events and names forms should be aware of?
<ToyMan> nope
<ToyMan> no direct deposit
<dneighbo> would you like to?
<ToyMan> maybe...depends on the bank too, yes?
Action: dneighbo has been digging in my old literature file for throne reading lately
<dneighbo> we had met some folks in san francisco
Action: ToyMan checks his /. post to see if those lamers recognize a good post when they get it...
<dneighbo> that do credit card stuff and were willing to work really close with us and possibly gpl the 'client' to their daemon
<ToyMan> hmm. that sound's good
<ToyMan> i'm really cooking on the zope thing right now
<dneighbo> in reading their literature they do ACH(Automated Clearing House) i.e. Electronic Fund Transfers (direct deposit)
<jamest> madlocke: not in one place
<ToyMan> which is using postgresql on the backend 
<dneighbo> if you did online ordering they could do your credit card verification as well
<madlocke> ok
<dneighbo> i.e. same daemon/client
<jamest> madlocke: grep for     self.incommingEvent
<ToyMan> hmm. trying to fit this all in my wee brain..
<jamest> in the py files
<madlocke> jamest: doing this :)
<grib> dneighbo: if you get closer to an open sourec CCV system let me know ... all the clearing houses are super proprietary AFAICT
<dneighbo> grib: these guys are still prop in the daemon area
<dneighbo> they said they would gladly make it open BUT non disclosures etc with banks prevent them
<dneighbo> they have xplatform client that is open source
<grib> ah, ok.  well if you are going to go proprietary might as well use Red Hat CCVS :)  
<dneighbo> we had discussed with them about making it LGPL and they seemed willing to talk
<dneighbo> and were willing to give us testing environment
<grib> the banks are really nazis about their protocols.  very unfriendly. 
<dneighbo> grib certainly
<dneighbo> but i figure half is better than nothing
<grib> yep
<dneighbo> i.e. if they are willing to LGPL the client
<dneighbo> and give us free access to do testing
<dneighbo> thats half the battle
<dneighbo> its a win for them, its a win for us
<dneighbo> i got impression its a small shop wanting to break into linux market
<dneighbo> really nice guys
<grib> what;s the name of the outfit?  or still hush hush? 
<dneighbo> um... not hush hush, but the paperwork is at home
Action: dneighbo is drawing a blank on the name
<grib> if you think of it drop me a line.  I'm about to do a CCVS based thing for a client here and I'd be interested in seeing an alternative.
<dneighbo> http://www.mainstreetsoftworks.com/
<grib> ok thx
<dneighbo> Main Street to provide CCVS alternative. Main Street has contracted with RedHat to provide an instant alternative to CCVS (credit card verifiaction system). 
<dneighbo> kind of funny
<dneighbo> looks like they are REPLACING CCVS :)
<grib> hm, maybe they do on-line verification rather than telephonic? 
<grib> CCVS requires a modem
<dneighbo> ccvs could go either way
<dneighbo> iirc when we set it up we used phone, but they were in process of starting to offer internet version
<dneighbo> grib : we were talking with Darryl Wright 
<dneighbo> i would gladly re contact him about a LGPL client
<dneighbo> (as i think our other thing was we were wanting a python version)
<grib> dneighbo: doesn't really matter about the client.  I'm interested in their server pricing tho.  Doesn't really look that great but maybe they'll cut me a reseller deal.
<dneighbo> grib they are small enough that i think if you show promise of income, they will negotiate :)
<dneighbo> isnt gnucash GPL?
<dneighbo> if so then you have to worry a little about the client
<dneighbo> if you want to integrate the client into gnucash in a decent way
Action: dsmith is back (gone 01:51:15)
<dneighbo> jcater are masks working at all in forms?
<dneighbo> i.e. i have some date fields..... ;)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I'll have to look
<jcater> we did some heavy work on it
<dneighbo> no rush, just a question
<jcater> but I think we temporarily stopped because we saw it wouldn't be ready for 0.1.0
<dneighbo> i.e. that wasnt a feature 'push' as much as it was a 'status request' ;)
<jcater> "in progress"
<dneighbo> as i recalled lots of 'traffic' on it, but then hadnt heard more so didnt know if it was 0.1.0 stopped it or if it was 'complete' and needed some 'masta luvin'
<jcater> 0.1.0
<jcater> stopped it
<jcater> then grpc stepped in and shoved it
<jcater> ;)
<jcater> but I REALLY, REALLY want a working reports
<jcater> before I step back into forms, etc
<jcater> even though I REALLY, REALLY need a few more features in forms for work
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> self.clone()
<jcater> dammit, still doesn't work
<dneighbo> yip 
<dneighbo> works for me
<jcater> jamest.clone()
<jcater> argh!
<jcater> his doesn't work either
<dneighbo>  stu wants workign reports too
<jcater> dneighbo.close()
<jcater> doh!
<jcater> doesn't work either
<dneighbo> wow, designer looks amazingly kick ass with my current theme :)
<dneighbo> ouchie
<dneighbo> from 0.1.0 release on  linux
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:/usr/local/bin$ gfdesigner &
<dneighbo> [1] 6411
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:/usr/local/bin$ DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/GFDesigner.py", line 94, in OnWizard
<dneighbo> DB000:     self.RunWizard(wizard)
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/GFDesigner.py", line 112, in RunWizard
<dneighbo> DB000:     instance, templateInformation).run():
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/TemplateParser.py", line 113, in run
<dneighbo> DB000:     self.panel.GetBackgroundColour().Blue() + 32) )
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/wxPython/gdi.py", line 254, in __init__
<dneighbo> DB000:     self.this = apply(gdic.new_wxColour,_args,_kwargs)
<dneighbo> DB000: OverflowError: unsigned byte integer is greater than maximum
<dneighbo> when trying to run form wizard
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> is this a wx'ism in 2.1
<jcater> yeah, there's a big TODO: right above that code
<jcater> that basically says
<dneighbo> maybe an apt-get fixem will work
<jcater> this needs to be fixed or some jerk using a wierd theme will crash it
<dneighbo> rofl: so its a theme thing...
<jcater> well
<jcater> I need a shade of your default color
<dneighbo> shame as this theme makes designer look pretty nice
<jcater> and I used a bad hack to do it ;)
<dneighbo> here a hack, there a hack, every where a hack hack...
<dneighbo> old mc cater had an app...
<jcater> but gnue wanted it committed...
<jcater> argh!
<jcater> that didn't rhyme
<dneighbo> trying w/ default theme
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<dneighbo> now it works
<dneighbo> rock
Action: dneighbo hugs his gnue framework
<dsmith> eie i/o
<jcater> so how you liking the post-0.1.0 windowset?
<dneighbo> not using it :(
<dneighbo> at work no cvs
<dneighbo> so running 0.1.0
<jcater> ah
<dneighbo> but i like what i tested at home :)
<dsmith> Linux needs a eie interface, so we can have eieio
<dneighbo> rofl
<grib> that's an instruction on PPC
<dneighbo> i think they tried eide
<dneighbo> someone messed up you see it was eie but management insisted on adding the d
<dneighbo> jcater are labels capable of being data aware?
Action: dneighbo remembers discussing this at one point but doesnt recall if it go implemented
<jcater> yes, but we call then entries
<dneighbo> sigh
<jcater> ;)
<dneighbo> that would be fine if i could chagne background color of an entry and make it not 3d :)
<jcater> part of ui rewrite
<dneighbo> ok
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> that's our new mantra
<jcater> "part of ui rewrite"
<ToyMan> dneighbo: can i change topic for a moment?
<dneighbo> surely
<ToyMan> one of the things I REALLY like about access is the ability for users to filter content of a query 'on-the-fly'
<ToyMan> is this part of base gnue functionality?
<dneighbo> yes and no
<dneighbo> you can go into ANY field
<dneighbo> and do a filter
<dneighbo> and can do it on MULTIPLE fields
<dneighbo> you do a start query
<dneighbo> that blanks things out
<dneighbo> then you enter your params in fields you wish to filter
<dneighbo> and do an 'execute query' and it brings you back the filtered result set
<ToyMan> kind of a query by form
<dneighbo> very powerful, but not the most 'intuitive'
<ToyMan> pretty intuitive
<dneighbo> i.e. powerusers will love it, newbies will be a bit over whelmed if used to 'winders'
<dneighbo> we plan on making some lookup dialogs
<dneighbo> for slightly more intuitive lookups on 'key fields'
<fil_c> I say it's intuitive... I understood it without explanation
<ToyMan> well, i've got my office staff using the access query by form
<ToyMan> which sounds identical
<dneighbo> well then we have it :)
<ToyMan> no problems here
<dneighbo> we love it, i just dont like to hype it too much
<dneighbo> as its usually a love hate thing
<dneighbo> either the users think its great or they say its too confusing
<ToyMan> but the ability to click on a field in a 'grid' view and say 'gimme just those'
<ToyMan> is very nice
<dneighbo> well you have that ability :)
Action: dneighbo thumps self
<dneighbo> ToyMan : um that feature doesnt exist
<dneighbo> it would be really hard to add
<ToyMan> heh
<dneighbo> if you send me two nickels i can add it for you
<ToyMan> oh, darn, you'll prolly have to charge me big $$$
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> if anyone wants my address
<jcater> I take donuts
<jcater> food is a wonderful motivator for me
<jcater> ;)
<dneighbo> jcater: funny thing is every AM the morning talkshow guys are doing dozen days of giving
<dneighbo> where they set up at diff store every morning and take donations for gifts for kids etc...
<dneighbo> and each mornign the krispy kreme van has been there giving away free glazed donuts :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I wonder how much a KK van costs?
<grib> anybody: having a problem with ui design wondering how gnue handles similar probs ... window 1 editing a single logical record of table 1; part of window 1 is a display listing matches from table 2 on a single field of record 1; window 2 is an editor that can affect that list
<grib> what do you do when the selection of the logical record in window 1 is changed, by next/prev etc, with (a) uncommitted changes in window 2, (b) no uncommitted changes in window 2?
<grib> i.e. do you just blow away windows with no uncommitted changes in (b)
<grib> and how does the "confirm me blowing away your changes" work when there are multiple windows possibly editing a record?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I'd at least make them "rollback/undo" their changes or save those changes
<jcater> and give them a dialog to that effect
<grib> makes sense.  I guess you wouldn't be terribly surprised if an unused editor dialog disappeared when you changed records? 
<grib> or would you expect it to be editing the new current record? 
<jamest> jcater: a word of warning now that you're trying jcater.clone()
<jamest> don't ever do jcater.nice(-19)
<jamest> derek tried it and we ended up with masta
<jcater> ah
<jcater> is that what happened?
<jamest> yip
<jamest> aparently it doesn't deal with priority in the human API, it's something to do with disposition
<Mr_You> hey, anyone know if its possible to put a M$ Access file on a server and let clients connect to it via ODBC?  Does an M$ Access ODBC driver for *nix exist?
<jcater> http://www.odbc.org/
<jcater> iirc is home of unixODBC
<jcater> a free odbc driver for unix
<jcater> but that would still require a running MS Access on a Win machine
<dneighbo> Mr_You you are asking wrong questions :)
<dneighbo> ms access is not a 'server' db
<Mr_You> I know that
<dneighbo> you can put it on server and NOT use ODBC to connect to it :)
<dneighbo> the only reason i can see to use ODBC for access is if you need to access access data w/ somethign other than access :)
<dneighbo> but that is irrelevant to where access is local or not to the thing using it :)
<Mr_You> its this.. someone wants to access an accessdb file over the net
<dneighbo> if you were going to access access data w/ something other than access then i would seriously consider ditching access :) (ask toyman) ;)
<dneighbo> um since access is not a 'daemon' i dont think you can hit it via 'tcp/ip' and odbc isnt a transport substitute
<dsmith> Mr_You: Access is a file format, not a network protocol.
<dneighbo> to use over the net you would have to create a VPN
<Mr_You> odbc is the method
<dsmith> Mr_You: You can use samba or nfs to access an access file.
<Mr_You> there are odbc drivers that can access a database file..
<dneighbo> so that the user could attache to the .mdb (but at that point odbc isnt necessary)
<Mr_You> samba and NFS are not available
<dneighbo> Mr_You ; yes but unfortunately odbc just calls the file, it doesnt give you a 'protocol'
<dneighbo> i.e. when you setup odbc on the CLIENT machine for access you must give it a 'path' to the .mdb
<Mr_You> can't you create a DSN that points to the odbc on remote server?
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<dneighbo> Mr_You : not that im aware of, but its been a long time
<Mr_You> I'm pretty sure you can
<Mr_You> the issue is finding a nix odbc driver that can "connect" to raw access files
<dneighbo> Mr_You you can create 'file dsn's' but you have same issue
<dneighbo> its 'file' not server based
<dneighbo> so you can create one odbc that is a .dsn file
<dneighbo> that then each client can use
<dneighbo> so each client doesnt have to configure its DSN indvidually
<dneighbo> if you find way around this i would be interested in how
<Mr_You> well, I think we're talking one or two clients top
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<jjeff> hi guys.. i have a problem installing GNUe Forms.. it tells me i need PyXML yet i have installed it?
<Mr_You> someone will help jjeff
<jjeff> i could probably just comment out the error lines in setup.py but it would be nicer if i didnt have to.. and im not sure whether it will still work if it doesnt detect it.
<Mr_You> jcater: thanks for the link
<fil_c> jjeff: I had the same problem yesterday
<jjeff> fil_c: did you manage to get it working?
<fil_c> jjeff: I was running python2 (rpm) but also had installed python(1) and PyXML for python1
<fil_c> jjeff: yes, with some help from this group
<fil_c> jjeff: are you using rpms?
<jjeff> fil_c: hmm.. ok well i have install python2.1  .deb
<jjeff> fil_c: but when it was removing python1.5 it didnt remove the directory because it wasnt empty..
<jamest> jjeff: python2.1 looks in IIRC /usr/lib/python-2.1/
<Mr_You> yo get this when running the setup.py?
<jamest> and not in the /usr/lib/python1.5.2 
<jjeff> mr_you: yes.
<jamest> so it won't find it
<fil_c> jjeff: I had to remove PyXML witch was installed in /usr/lib/python-1.5 and install it from the tarbal on sourceforge using setup.py
<jjeff> jamest: i have just remove /usr/lib/python1.5
<jjeff> fil_c: i have installed it from the tarball on sourceforge
<Mr_You> you might just try making sure PyXML is in your PYTHONPATH
<fil_c> jjeff: did PyXML go in the /usr/lib/python-2.1 directory?
<jjeff> skipping byte-compilation of /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/_xmlplus/utils/qp_xml.py to qp_xml.pyc   its already there..
<fil_c> ok... (I'm no expert)
<Mr_You> ahh I guess the only way to do it is to create an ODBC<->ODBC bridge 
<jjeff> what exactly should my PYTHONPATH look like?
<fil_c> when installing GNUe-Forms try running python2 setup.py install
<Mr_You> jjeff: usually its blank if everything is already in the right spot ;-)
<jjeff> python2.1 setup.py install still cant find PyXML
<jjeff> ok ive just commented it out in  setup.py .. but now its saying there is no Pyncurses or wxPython
<Mr_You> find where pyxml is installed and put that path in PYTHONPATH and try again
<jjeff> mr_you: is that /usr/lib/python2.1 or /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages?  ive added them both to my PYTHONPATH
<Mr_You> not sure exactly
<fil_c> What do you get if you just type: python
<jamest> jjeff: the RPMs would have installed in 1.5.2 most likely (what OS/distro are you running)
<jamest> so you'll either need to install the packages that match your installed python2.x or install from source
<jamest> as the setup.py checks work like the code does (IOW if setup.py won't find it forms won't either)
Action: jamest is starting to wonder if we jumped the gun on dropping 1.5.2 support :(
<fil_c> jjeff: What do you get if you just type: python       ??
<Mr_You> jeff is using debian I believe
Action: fil_c prods jjeff
<jjeff> sorry guys im at work
<jjeff> python1.5 was removed when i installed 2.1
<jjeff> and yes im using debian
<fil_c> jjeff: Sorry I think I'm at the end of my knowledge.  Only been playing with python for a few days
<jamest> ah
<jamest> several of our dependencies are available via apt-get for python 2.1
<jamest> i'm going to assume you're running woody?
<jamest> apt-cache search python2.1
<jamest> you'll need
<jamest> python2.1-egenix-mxdatetime
<jamest> python2.1-dev
<jamest> python2.1-psycopg (if using postgresql)
<jamest> python2.1-mysqldb (if using mysql)
<jamest> I think that wxPython however won't work (the libwxgtk2.2-python package) as I believe it was built against python 1.5.2
<Mr_You> umm.. Compaq is selling a laptop with AMDs new 1Ghz Duron (apparently the Durons still use Hz designation), but the thing doesn't seem to indicate that it has a builtin 3D card.. kinda a waste of a CPU I'd think
<jamest> ?
<Mr_You> most games require a 3D chipset/card
<jamest> some of our profs would love 1GHz duron and wouldn't care about 3d
<Mr_You> why?
<jjeff> james: thanks for the info.. i am running woody but have sid in my sources.list so can use the latest packages
<jcater> if you have sid listed, pyxml is apt-get install python2.1-xml
<jcater> I wish they'd put that in woody ;)
<Mr_You> those same profs probably could be satisfied with a PII300 (like mine) with plenty of ram ;-)
<fil_c> I'm still on an AMD K6-II 300
<jamest> Mr_You: actually for some math research our dual p3-1000 w/ 1GB of ram isn't enough
<Mr_You> the only two machines I've ever bought was a 486, and a super socket 7 motherboard and case..
<Mr_You> jamest: yeah but we're talking laptops
<jamest> and IIRC it's got a trident ISA card in it and no monitor
<jamest> :)
<jcater> laptops for math professors, though :)
<jcater> never know when they might have a hankering to do mandelbrot sets
<Mr_You> ok fine, but still they are pointless for most people 
<Mr_You> specially considering how cheap 3D chipsets are
<jamest> i'll give you that
<Mr_You> gotta do stuff, bbl
Action: Mr_You &
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<reinhard> jamest: you wanted to talk to me?
<reinhard> shoot right away
<reinhard> if only it's no bug report for geas
<reinhard> ;)
<jamest> it's about building conditionals for a geas query
<jamest> right now it seems that geas only lets me set the logic at the query object level
<jamest> so a query can AND all the fields added
<reinhard> you might want to do (x AND y) OR z ?
<jamest> however the conditional system in common can nest all this 
<jamest> forms doesn't currently use it but IIRC reports does
<jamest> reinhard: yes, exactly
<reinhard> looks like you're right
<reinhard> ye
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> part of idl rewrite
<reinhard> ;)
<jamest> well
<jamest> I was wondering
<jamest> right now you build up your queries into something (oql?)
<jamest> then parse that into sql
<jamest> is that right?
<reinhard> right now the queries build up some internal data structure
<reinhard> that i don't know how it works exaclty
<reinhard> exactly
<jamest> ah, where did oql come into play?
<reinhard> oql is just the name of the source file that does this
<jamest> ah, ok
<jamest> damn
<jamest> I was hoping to pass this "OQL" in directly
<reinhard> it is not real OQL AFAICT
<jamest> doesn't look possible :(
<reinhard> but i don't know what OQL is actually
<reinhard> could it be this:?
<reinhard> _QueryData *
<reinhard> oql_load (const char *classname, const char *OQL_query)
<reinhard> {
<reinhard>   fatal_error ("OQL text queries not yet supported.");
<reinhard>   return NULL;
<reinhard> }
<jamest> right
<reinhard> ah so OQL is something like SQL?
<jamest> i thought so
<reinhard> ah
<jamest> IIRC chilly was working on this
<jamest> but I know nothing about it
<reinhard> seems like he didn't get very far ;)
<reinhard> anyway
<reinhard> you tell me your favourite way to pass the conditions
<reinhard> and i'll implement it
<reinhard> btw oql.h looks like this
<reinhard> typedef void    QueryData;
<reinhard> typedef struct __QueryData _QueryData;
<reinhard> looks good eh?
<jamest> ?????
<jamest> sure
<jamest> <cough>
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Action: jcater is giddy
<jcater> all my supplies came in
<jamest> reinhard: I really don't have a favorite way of dealing w/ objects
<jamest> what might be interesting is to see what is already out there
<jamest> if there is a std OQL then that may be the way to go
<jamest> that way if other app servers supported it we'd be once step close to supporting even more backends
<reinhard> i see two roads we may take
<reinhard> three actually
<reinhard> a. OQL
<reinhard> b. SQL syntax which can be directly taken as WHICH clause
<reinhard> c. some tree structure
<reinhard> c. would mean that the caller provides c. and geas translates of course to b
<reinhard> and actually a. would mean that we have geas internal translation probably like
<reinhard> a.->c.->b.
<reinhard> i.e. OQL must be parsed into memory structure and then SQL must be built
<jamest> C is what we have now in common with routines in the dbdrivers to convert the tree into sql
<reinhard> i would say that if we implement a. then we must implement c. automatically
<reinhard> so a. will be a layer around c. so to speak
<reinhard> hmmm
<reinhard> in which form does the query start to exist?
<reinhard> i.e. how is it built up in forms/reports?
<jamest> it really doesn't matter much
<jamest> as the drivers expect a GConditional tree
<jamest> or a python dictionary they turn into a  GConditional tree
<reinhard> so i guess something compatible to GConditional could be best?
<jamest> you can see the conversion process in dbdrivers/_dbsig
<jamest> DBdriver.py
<jamest> something like __conditionToSQL()
<jamest> the geas one isn't checked in yet :)
<jamest> reinhard: that doesn't matter to me much, if OQL is a std that app servers support then that'd be best
<reinhard> dunno
<jamest> as we could create a _oql driver w/ geas driver as a child along with any other app server drivers 
<reinhard> wouldn't even know what other app servers are out there
<reinhard> something that is sure is that OQL would take most time to implement
<reinhard> and would result in something like
<reinhard> common( tree -> OQL ) -> geas( OQL -> tree -> SQL )
<jamest> :)
<dsmith> Sorry for another dumb question. What's OQL? (Object Query Language?)
<reinhard> yes
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<reinhard> it's Object Query Language
<reinhard> that's all we know about it :)
<dsmith> heh
<fil_c> http://www.mm.di.uoa.gr/~toobis/seminar/OQL/sld001.htm
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<jamest> www.odmg.org
<dneighbo> omg has standard for OQL
<dneighbo> that is what chilly was to look into
<dneighbo> it cost 'money' to get the standard though ;)
<jcater> sheesh
<jcater> mozilla mail has "issues"
<fil_c> ODMG OQL User manual 5.0 is here: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~cis550/oql.pdf
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<dneighbo> crapola
<dneighbo> can you search on readonly fields?
<dneighbo> arghhhhh, how do you fix that bug in designer again
<dneighbo> that prevents you from entering data?
<dneighbo> i cant make the scrollbar go away :(
<jcater> um
<dneighbo> and i think thats how you fix it
<jcater> make the box really big to make it go away
<dneighbo> the property editor is too big
<jcater> um
<jcater> kick it
<jcater> really hard
<dneighbo> i.e. if i make it full screen even the scrollbar still exists
<dneighbo> ohhh
<jcater> weird
<dneighbo> that hurt my toe
<dneighbo> roflmao
<dneighbo> ok if i make property editor span TWO virtual workspaces
<dneighbo> its big enough to get rid of scrollbar and thus i can enter data :)
Action: dneighbo thinks he should stop running this under userid dneighbo ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<jcater> dang
<jcater> you using 400dpi fonts?
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<dneighbo> jcater : debian fonts suck
<dneighbo> remember i was complaining at home about this too
<dneighbo> if you use the default theme the things are friggin huge
<ajmitch> works for me :)
<dneighbo> but if you change to some other theme they are decent
<ajmitch> i have 75dpi fonts
<ajmitch> and have played with my font config quite a bit
<dneighbo> ok you want a bug report that might be 'new' in designer?
<jcater> no
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<dneighbo> 'good' here it is ;)
<jack-e> hi all
<dneighbo> if you use the form wizard to create a form and say it has a lot of columns 
<dneighbo> so it creates a form say 90 char tall :)
<jack-e> reinhard: are you there ??
<dneighbo> only 40 char show up in the design window
<reinhard> yo
<jack-e> fine :)
<reinhard> well no
<reinhard> i am here
<reinhard> you are there
<reinhard> ;)
<jack-e> :)
<dneighbo> btw: this might be fixed in cvs as you moved the form out of the panels
<reinhard> (old andrewm joke)
<jcater> dneighbo: not sure
<jcater> btw, dnZzzz is fscking up my tab completion
<dneighbo> jcater it still creates all the widgets
<jack-e> reinhard: do you know how much work it will take to get gnue-common work with geas ??
<dneighbo> and such in the correct pixel coordinates
<dneighbo> and says the form is 90
<jcater> so it's not a wizard problem
<dneighbo> but it will only let me scroll down to 40 if that makes sense
<jcater> but a layout editor problem
<jcater> oh
<dneighbo> jcater im a thorough bug submitter
<reinhard> jack-e: i think jamest is _actively_ working on this as we speak
<dneighbo> in the sense that giving specifics as to when it happened :)
<jack-e> ahh :)) fine ..
<jcater> does it still appear that the grid extends down further than the scrollbars allow
<jack-e> so jamest .. how are things going ??
<dneighbo> i.e. not blaming wizard merely saying was using wizard when noticed :)
<dneighbo> jcater: yes it does
<jcater> ok
<jcater> this is a known problem
<dneighbo> there is no 'whitespace' after character 40
<jcater> I haven't fully grokked scrollbars
<jcater> so
<dneighbo> ok
<jcater> the scrollbars are "fixed" in their increments
<jack-e> i had many thoughts how to use gnue for our needs and this what i got till yet ..
<dneighbo> jcater: i was thinking that might be the case :)
<jack-e> we need highly customized gui so we won't use forms but build a wxPython-App around gnue-common that should talk to geas ..
<jack-e> does this sound reasonable ??
<dneighbo> sure, but curious as to what 'highly customized' things you need
<reinhard> maybe you might want to base your gui on the existing gnue forms
<dneighbo> we arent shy in saying we dont think apps need lots of glitz
<dneighbo> so it might be we disagree there and it makes sense for you to do that
<jack-e> i think it is not really possible to integrage trees (maybe lists) in an easy way into gnue-forms ...
<dneighbo> but it might be that the 'customization' you desire we agree should be there in which case it would be more practical for all to integrate that functionality into forms
<jack-e> i find that a complex account/network-management needs to give several possiblities to the user to find information
<dneighbo> im not saying you are wrong
<jack-e> for what i have seen right now in the samples .. they all have .. say one record or a master-detail record as base
<dneighbo> it might fully make sense to reuse what you can from gnue and make your own front end
<jack-e> but there are no hierachical parts in it .. and it won't be easy to make a generalisation for them .. 
<jack-e> if it ever makes sense to do so ...
<dneighbo> what do you mean by hierarchial parts?
<jack-e> take a tree of organisational units 
<jack-e> and persons that are assigned to them ..
<jack-e> you click on a unit and get a list of persons that are in this ou
<dneighbo> hmmm i can see some value to adding a tree widget to forms (personally)
<dneighbo> i dont knwo what jason/jamest think
<dneighbo> i think the bigger question would be how would we implement the data aware side of it
<jack-e> another part is that i have not yet seen a list-widget .. (at least not in desinger) .. 
<dneighbo> i assume you would do a tree like master-detail-master-detail
<dneighbo> or something
<jack-e> that's what i say .. you cannot make a generalisation for all needs ..
<grib> there's no list widget?  how do you display query results? 
<jack-e> i have done this with pydo but there i missed what geas can give: business-objects ..
<dneighbo> well you could say same for entry but with some properties you can do a lot
<dneighbo> i can see a list fairly easily...
<jack-e> i build trees in different ways ..
<dneighbo> grib: what do you mean?
<jack-e> some are completly application-specific ..
<dneighbo> we display them in entry widgets 
<dneighbo> or 'grids'
<jack-e> others are based on self-referencing tables ..
<dneighbo> jack-e what i am saying is that you could have a grid widget that take properties for different types of behavior
<dneighbo> the reason i think we have avoided trees and some of these other widgets is they are not 'portable'
<jack-e> so .. forms does support grids/list-widgets ?? but not designer yet .. am i right ??
<jamest> some of this may be doable - i haven't time to think about it now
<dneighbo> i.e. get curses to trees and such is not fun
<jamest> grids are not spreadsheet like grids
<dneighbo> grids are repeatable entries
<dneighbo> there is a rows property
<jack-e> so i do not really need html/curses interfaces for this project .. it is fine to have a wx-gui ...
<dneighbo> to tell how big to make the 'grid'
<jamest> it's also quite possible to extend forms itself w/ some effort
<jack-e> jamest: do you think it is doable ??
<jack-e> with how much effort ??
<jack-e> how to describe all the interaction that is needed .. there are lots of things to care about .. if you work with trees .. thats the drawback .. but people are used to them ...
<jamest> i think the working w/ trees is also pointing toward navigation issues
<jamest> so I don't have an answer
<jack-e> i have only seen examples where i can use the <+-> widget to work with master->detail .. is there another way ??
<jack-e> another topic yet :)
<jamest> and unless someone has come up w/ a spray to repel users I'm going to be busy for a bit yet today
<jack-e> except building a grid of entry-objects ??
<reinhard> jamest: so let me take the chance to close the discussion about queries for today
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<reinhard> i believe that we have to work out an interface together
<jamest> jack-e: i'm not sure how a tree interface would be grafted into forms
<jack-e> me neither :)
<jamest> however I (off top of head) could see a tree navigator that would embed forms
<reinhard> meanwhile i will use my 2-3 hours per week i can spend for gnue [:((] on things that i know are usefule
<jack-e> that's what i said a few days ago ..
<jamest> need to think about this when I have time to think
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> e.g. eliminating the old parser
<jamest> reinhard: what do I do in the driver?
<jack-e> i build an app and import the funcionality of gnue-forms to display the forms ..
<reinhard> jamest: you don't?
<reinhard> you're asking questions
<reinhard> you never heard of mafia?
<reinhard> asking questions can be dagerous itself
<reinhard> ;)
<ajmitch> heh
<jamest> :)
Nick change: phil_c -> fil_c
<jamest> jack-e: that may be possible 
<reinhard> seriously from your questions i was concluding that you at least _think_ about the geas driver
<jack-e> and it seems to be the "less work intensive" way ..
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<reinhard> night all
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<jack-e> jcarter: .. are there any parts that a "newby" could help in bringing common together with geas ?? e.g. testing :)
<fil_c> dneighbo: jcarter mentioned you might know the whereabouts of a proposal for a menu/process flow interface to gnue yesterday.  Do you have any pointers?
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Nick change: cwZZZZ -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> OQL is Object Query Language
<chillywilly> it's like SQL + OO stuff
<chillywilly> we don't really support it but should
<chillywilly> btw, I wrote the current OQL module
<chillywilly> OQL is in the ODMG spec
<jcater> jack-e: um, not sure
<dneighbo> fil_c : probably mail list archive... i dont the proposal got published
<jcater> fil_c: I posted a link yesterday
<jcater> but I guess you timed-out right before you saw it :(
<jcater> lemme look again
<jcater> jack-e: jamest is really handling the geas driver
<jcater> I know he's stuck with the query part right now
<jcater> if you caught the conversation w/reinhard just a minute ago
<jack-e> jc: jep .. they both have no time right now :( ..
<jamest> i have time now
<jack-e> so .. how are things going .. 
<jamest> will have for the next few weeks (minus the holiday trips to family)
<jamest> slowly :)
<fil_c> jcater/dneighbo: I'll have a look in the IRC logs and email
<jcater> fil_c: http://lists.gnue.org/pipermail/gnue-accounting/2001-July/000062.html
<jack-e> for me .. this is this is the most interesting part of gnue .. yet
<jamest> I'm working on getting the common driver accessing geas
<jamest> a few bugs ironed out for a 0.1.1 release
<jamest> then UI stuff started
<jcater> fil_c: sorry I'm slow in responding... user requests :(
<jamest> and the geas/common driver linkup (if I'm not insane by then)
<jack-e> i would really like to play around with gnue .. but i don't want to access it directly from corba .. at least not for initial testing ..
<fil_c> jcater: no problems thanks for the link
<jack-e> if i'm right .. for now .. geas works with its dbdrivers (pgsql/mysql) and offers it's service via corba .. right ??
<chillywilly> I have an oql grammar file
<chillywilly> not very nice for explaining how to use it though
<chillywilly> ;P
<jack-e> btw.  i have trouble building geas from cvs with python2.1 ... any hints .. it complains about -lpython2.1 ..
<jack-e> v0.0.6 builds .. but without python-methods afaik by default ..
<chillywilly> what does it say?
<chillywilly> the current cvs code lets you have both c and python methods by defualt
<jack-e>  _ /usr/i686-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: cannot find -lpython2.1
<chillywilly> ldconfig -v | grep python2.1
<chillywilly> is it in there?
<jack-e> nope
<jack-e> is libpython2.1 a shared lib ?? or static
<chillywilly> add the path to ld.so.conf
<chillywilly> well I thought it was a shared
<jack-e>  _ /usr/lib/python2.1/????? config or what
<chillywilly> yea
<jack-e> i have build python myself .. but i do not have a libpythonX.X.so ...
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> well is it a statuc lib?
<jack-e> after i added /usr/lib/python2.1/config .. ldconfig -v | grep python2.1 gives me: /usr/lib/python2.1/config:
<chillywilly> it still needs the path either way
<jack-e> i have a libpython2.1.a yes
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<chillywilly> add the path to is in /etc/ld.so.conf
<chillywilly> s/is/it
<jack-e> i try again with the path .. just a moment ..
<chillywilly> the linker uses it no matter even if it's a static lib
<jack-e> not really :)
<jack-e> it hangs at the same part again ...
<jack-e> another try .. just a moment
<chillywilly> you could make a symlink
<jack-e> i made a distclean and reconfigured  .. it still compiles ..
<jack-e> not anymore ..
<jack-e> :(( 
<jack-e> i'll try a symlink
<chillywilly> wtf?
<chillywilly> what happened to my cvs dir
<chillywilly> oh shit
<chillywilly> this is not good
<ajmitch> heh
<chillywilly> oh wait
<chillywilly> it's in src
<chillywilly> duh
<ajmitch> lol
Action: chillywilly beats head against wall
<chillywilly> I scared myself there
<chillywilly> ;P
<jack-e> chilly: you have a libpython2.1.so on your system ??
<chillywilly> dnl TODO: we need better python checks! Maybe look at the one from orbit-python
<chillywilly> dnl libuuid needs the socket library on solaris
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> ye
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> libpython2.1.so
<jack-e> hmmm .. i searched the net .. and they had really scary howto's to build a shared lib ..
<jack-e> do you use prebuild python or selfmade ??
<chillywilly> debian package
<chillywilly> it should build a shared lib by default
<jack-e> i have never used debian .. but afaik they have build-scripts in their packages .. ??
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> I don't know how a debian package work though
<chillywilly> I never made one
<chillywilly> ask ajmitch
<chillywilly> ;)
<ajmitch> who? where?
Action: ajmitch knows nuzzink
<jack-e> ajmitch: do you know how to extract a build-script from a debian-package ??
<chillywilly> maybe I can add a better python check
<jack-e> with a non-debian system :)
<chillywilly> a deb is just an ar ball
<chillywilly> you use the ar command
<chillywilly> (not tar, but ar)
<jack-e> ok ..
<ajmitch> the debian package supplements the upstream packages with it's own scripts
<ajmitch> it calls configure with some arguments, etc
<jack-e> yep .. that's what i'm interested in .. i build python myself .. and perhaps looking on these scripts helps finding a way how to build the shared libpython2.1.so ...
<jack-e> i did a find / -name "libpython2.1.so" and it only found my symlink :((
<ajmitch> tell chillywilly to do 'apt-get source python' for you
<jack-e> can't i get it without debian ??
<grib> jack-e: the actual .so is usually a symlink anyway 
<jack-e> directly ??
<jack-e> hmpf 
<jack-e> where is it located and where does it point to ??
<grib> your find should glob for anything starting with libpython
<chillywilly> ls: /usr/lib/*pyhton*: No such file or directory
<chillywilly> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root       602840 Dec  8 23:24 /usr/lib/libpython2.0.so.0.0
<chillywilly> lrwxr-xr-x    1 root     root           19 Nov 25 21:26 /usr/lib/libpython2.1.so -> libpython2.1.so.0.0
<chillywilly> -rw-r--r--    1 root     root       593896 Dec  8 23:24 /usr/lib/libpython2.1.so.0.0
<chillywilly> drwxr-xr-x    3 root     root        12288 Dec  8 23:24 /usr/lib/python1.5
<chillywilly> drwxr-xr-x    9 root     root        12288 Dec  8 23:24 /usr/lib/python2.0
<chillywilly> drwxr-xr-x   13 root     root        16384 Dec 13 15:42 /usr/lib/python2.1
<ajmitch> you can get the sources off a debian mirror if you so choose
<grib> jack-e: the links are usually built by 'libtool' during the 'make install' step of the build process ... dunno if python uses libtool? 
<jack-e> yes .. it says that you have a /usr/lib/libpython2.0.so.0.0 :)) thats what is missing on my system :)
<grib> it almost ertainly ALWAYS build shared libs.  you shouldn't have to tell it to do so. 
<chillywilly> where the hell is AM_PATH_PYTHON macro at?
<dneighbo> rofl
<ajmitch> dunno, i ran out of space when trying to build python
<dneighbo> python does NOT build shared libs by default
<ajmitch> dneighbo: yes?
<jack-e> grib: not that i know ..
<chillywilly> jack-e: doe sit find the headers?
<dneighbo> in fact in rpm based system it isnt even included
<dneighbo> we used to distribute it separate so folks wouldnt have to 'build' from scratch
<chillywilly> dneighbo: obviously we need a better python check in confiure.in
<ajmitch> that's just sick
<jack-e> yes .. everything in configure works fine ..
<dneighbo> i think debian was only one making the so
<chillywilly> configure.in
<dneighbo> in the python faq it lists why they do not make it part of the default btw
<chillywilly> because they are evil?
<chillywilly> ;)
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<jack-e> it is not built by default .. that's for shure  .. and there is no obvious make instruction in the python-makefiles as well .. i search for them ..
<chillywilly> they want to punish ppl
<jack-e> they say .. if you need python .. you should use the static libpython2.1.a !!
<grib> dneighbo: wow, that blows.  
<chillywilly> you should be abelt o linke to that bitch
<dneighbo> http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw.py?req=show&file=faq03.030.htp
<chillywilly> be able to
<dneighbo> jack-e thats what we say too :)
<jack-e> I'll try that :) thanks
<dneighbo> we scraped the .so's off debian machines and posted for rpm folks :)
<chillywilly> either way it needs the path to config
<chillywilly> /usr/lib/python2.1/config
<chillywilly> for that static thingy
<grib> dneighbo: as I read that FAQ answer, "we're just too goddam lazy to do the release management properly" :)
Action: chillywilly has that one too
<dneighbo> grib basically :)
<fil_c> test.pl
<grib> well it hasn't stopped folks from using python for sure
<dneighbo> i do agree with his argument though in sense of most people 'embedding' python are gonna want a 'specific' version
<dneighbo> in which case it better to release the so with the product you are embedding it with
<dneighbo> and most people dont 'embed' but rather use extensions which do have the .so's
<dneighbo> but i agree that it is LAZINESS to not fix the scripts
<chillywilly> well they need tobe trout whipped
<dneighbo> so that it builds the .so for those needing it
<grib> one of the three virtues of good programmers
Action: jcater troutslaps chillywilly
<jcater> ah. my daily fix
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> get a life
<chillywilly> :P
<dneighbo> jcater: i am messed up release wise
<dneighbo> did the 'debugger' in designer work in 0.1.0?
<dneighbo> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<dneighbo> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/Instance.py", line 425, in OnDebugRun
<dneighbo> DB000:     DebugSession(self)
<dneighbo> DB000: NameError: global name 'DebugSession' is not defined
<dneighbo> is my current error which is smelling familiar :)
<chillywilly> jack-e: all you need to do is help the linker find it....don't call it a .so though
<jack-e> hmm i put the /usr/lib/python2.1/config into /etc/ld.so.conf .. but this didn't help ..
<chillywilly> did you rerun ldconfig?
<jack-e> yep .. but i can retry if you want ..
<chillywilly> it make a cache you know
<chillywilly> makes
<jack-e> just a moment ..
<chillywilly> oh but it needs the proper flags too
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<chillywilly> I think this is our fuck up
<jack-e> .. any hints for that ??
<chillywilly> I wish I knoew ehere AM_PATH_PYTHON was defined
<jack-e> you see .. I'm a python-coder .. not c/c++ .. 
<ajmitch> chillywilly: probably in an m4 file somewhere
<jack-e> ;-)
<jack-e> uhh
<dneighbo> yeehaw
<chillywilly> ajmitch: well yes but I don't see it
<dneighbo> found bug that will segfault gfclient all over town 
<chillywilly> looked in /usr/share/aclocal
<chillywilly> they probbaly have it in some stupid place
<chillywilly> hrrrrm
<chillywilly> our lib flags are defintely lame
<chillywilly> for python
<jack-e> :)
<chillywilly> AM_PATH_PYTHON(module)
<chillywilly> AM_CHECK_PYMOD(CORBA)
<chillywilly> AM_CHECK_PYTHON_HEADERS
<chillywilly> PYTHON_CFLAGS="${PYTHON_INCLUDES}"
<chillywilly> PYTHON_LIBS="-lpython${PYTHON_VERSION} -lpthread"
<chillywilly> that is gay
<chillywilly> then again you should eb abel to link it
<chillywilly> cause you gave the linker the path
<chillywilly> feh
<jack-e> yes .. i played around a bit with them last week but i didn't get it to work without the shared-lib ..
<chillywilly> I think andrewm wrote that macro
<chillywilly> so python does not hav some nice macros or config scripts
<chillywilly> fooey
Action: chillywilly kicks python
Action: jamest smacks dneighbo with a 50lb trout
<jamest> no bugs allowed
<chillywilly> duh
<chillywilly> ld.so.conf is only for shared libs
<chillywilly> you need the whole path for your static lib
<chillywilly> it needs to do -I/usr/lib/python2.1/config
<jack-e> i think i have tried this last time as well ..
<chillywilly> it should worjt hen
<jack-e> where do i need to insert this .. configure.in ??
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> there might be an environment variable
Action: chillywilly looks at the macro again
<dneighbo> jcater: i will forget to do dcl when i get home 
<dneighbo> but another item
<dneighbo> is that in label you have alignment
<dneighbo> which defaults to 'left'
<dneighbo> but i think this should be a drop down
<jack-e> where do i put this in ?? PYTHON_CFLAGS ??
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<dneighbo> i.e. left, right, center etc
<chillywilly> jack-e: either way we need a better macro or the python ppl need towrite one
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> as it sits now i think its 'free form' entry
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<dneighbo> fooey
<jack-e> or PYTHON_LIBS .. or somewhere else ...
<dneighbo> never mind it is a dropdown...
<dneighbo> wonder why it wasnt behaving htat way before....
<chillywilly> PYTHON_CFLAGS
<jack-e> ok
<chillywilly> just put the path in there once
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> that's the quick and dirty fix ;)
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<chillywilly> ok, I need to hop in the shower
<chillywilly> bbiab
<jack-e> thanks ..
<dneighbo> asdklfjl;sdfjklasdjf
<dneighbo> a;sdlfjl;asdfjasdf
<dneighbo> dagnabit
<dneighbo> designer ate my form
<dneighbo> Gtk-CRITICAL **: file gtkwidget.c: line 2885 (gtk_widget_activate): assertion `GTK_IS_WIDGET (widget)' failed.
[16:41] Last message repeated 3 time(s).
<jack-e> :((((( nope .. that does not work either ..
<dneighbo> [2]+  Segmentation fault      gfdesigner
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:/usr/local/bin$ 
[16:41] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo> btw: i dont think the gtk-criticals have anything to do with the segfault
<dneighbo> jcater is there a way i can do a backtrace for you ?
<dneighbo> to get more info
<dneighbo> i was just getting into a 'groove'
<dneighbo> so much so i stopped my every 30 second backups about 10 minutes ago :)
<jcater> I dunno... that happens some times
<jack-e> shouldn't show up the -I/usr/lib/python2.1/config parameter in the gcc/ld calls if i put them into PYTHON_CFLAGS in configure.in ??
<jack-e> i did make distclean / ./configure --prefix=/usr / make ...
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<jamest> dneighbo: we check for that
<jamest> if username==derek and lastsave > 60*10:  thrash_work('now')
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<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> thats a new feature used to be
<chillywilly> jack-e: I am sorry it should be -L/usr/lib/python2.1/config
<chillywilly> not -I
<dneighbo> thrash_X('now')
<chillywilly> I think you could also do
<chillywilly> CFLAGS=-L/usr/lib/python2.1/config configure
<chillywilly> you need to rerun autogen.sh if you modify configure.in
<chillywilly> er, as that's build stuff
<chillywilly> then again you;re not using cvs
<chillywilly> do
<chillywilly> doh
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Action: chillywilly should just add a check for the shared lib and have the macro modify the cflags
<jack-e> chilly: i'm just building my libpython2.1.so :)
<jack-e> chilly: i use cvs .. 
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<jack-e> but do i need to run autogen.sh more than once ??
<jack-e> it only builds the configure script .. or am i wrong ??
<chillywilly> that's correct
<jack-e> so .. let's see if it works with my new shared python-lib :)
<chillywilly> if you were to modfiy configure.in you would want to rebuild the configure script
Action: chillywilly needs to figure out where he has to go to meet the fellas from work
<jack-e> ahh .. ok :) i never wrote a configure script ..
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<chillywilly> jack-e: you write configure.in
<chillywilly> whihc becomes configure
<chillywilly> usually it is just macro calls
<jack-e> that's why i like python so much :))
<chillywilly> python works with the auto* tools
<jack-e> not building python ;-) .. coding pyhton ...
<chillywilly> I mean coding in python you can do the configure make make install thing
<chillywilly> just lke in C
<chillywilly> :P
<jack-e> :)
<jack-e> make
<jack-e> ups
<jack-e> geas doesn't like me :(((((((
<jack-e> i have now: PYTHON_CFLAGS="-L/usr/lib/python${PYTHON_VERSION}/config ${PYTHON_INCLUDES}"
<jack-e> and rerun sh autogen.sh
<jack-e> make ...
<jack-e> same error
<chillywilly> is that in the gcc command line?
<jack-e> gcc -g -O2 -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wstrict-prototypes -o geas-server geas-skels.o geas-common.o geas-stubs.o geas-server.o geas-skeleton.o factory.o connection.o admin.o query.o objectlist.o dataobject.o exceptions.o transaction.o collectiondata.o security.o schema.o ../lib/classdefs/libclassdefs.a ../src/classdef/libclassdef.a ../src/config/libconfig.a ../src/oql/liboql.a ../src/objectcache/libobjectcache.a ../src/objectstore/libobject
<jack-e> is the last statement 
<jack-e> doesn't appear ..
<chillywilly> try setting it explicitly
<jack-e> yep
<chillywilly> export PYTHON_CFLAGS="-L/blah/" configure
<chillywilly> s/export//
<jack-e> nope .. doesn't work either :((
<jack-e> PYTHON_CFLAGS="-L/usr/lib/python2.1/config" ./configure
<jack-e> make
<jack-e> and make distclean before ..
<chillywilly> try CFLAGS by itself
<jack-e> just a moment .. it's a vmware-machine ..
<jack-e> better .. but now it complains about undefined references :(((((
<jack-e> collectiondata.o: In function `new_object_collection_from_query':
<jack-e> collectiondata.o(.text+0x574): the `gets' function is dangerous and should not be used.
<jack-e> and many more undefined references ...
<jack-e> e.g.:
<jack-e> _ /usr/lib/python2.1/config/libpython2.1.so: undefined reference to `rl_line_buffer'
<jack-e> and lot's mor
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<chillywilly> I dunno what that symbol is
<jack-e> i just check if i deleted my shared-lib tries ..
<jack-e> ups .. there are some left ..
<jack-e> another try ..
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<jack-e> no .. won't let me see it running :((
<jack-e> same error
<chillywilly> well dude I dunno
<jack-e> .. i clueless as well ..
<jack-e> thanks for your help anyway :)
<chillywilly> post to the list and reinhard and/or neilt will respond hopefully
<chillywilly> gotta go
Action: chillywilly is away: I'm busy
<jack-e> thanks
<jack-e> i'll go home .. cu guys ..
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<dneighbo> time for me to go home too bbl
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<ajmitch> hi Remosi
<Remosi> high
<Remosi> er
<Remosi> hi
<Remosi> bah
Action: Remosi just figured out how to pronounce "mysql"
<ajmitch> oh?
<Remosi> mysql> select if(soundex("mysql")=soundex("mysickle"),"TRUE","FALSE") as "Do you pronounce mysql as 'my-sickle'?";
<Remosi> +----------------------------------------+
<Remosi> | Do you pronounce mysql as 'my-sickle'? |
<Remosi> +----------------------------------------+
<Remosi> | TRUE                                   |
<Remosi> +----------------------------------------+
<ajmitch> heh
<phil_c> nice
Action: Remosi believes this to be an important victory for the "mysql is evil" group :)
<phil_c> just got viavoice/xchat speaking this group to me... I can vouch that it is actually misquel
Nick change: phil_c -> fil_c
<Remosi> heh
Action: Remosi has festival reading out when I get ICQ/Email
<Remosi> although I'm still trying to find a festival voice thats clear
<fil_c> I haven't tried festival, will have to give it a go sometime.
<fil_c> att seem to have the best speak synth that i've heard:
<fil_c> http://www.research.att.com/~mjm/cgi-bin/ttsdemo
<Remosi> I saw someone demo festival
<Remosi> and they had a long list of voices for it
<Remosi> of which, I think the US Female was the most intellegable
<Remosi> however
<Remosi> festival is in apt, but the US-Female voice doesn't appear to be
<ajmitch> they don't have a kiwi voice?
<Remosi> apparently not
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<Remosi> hmm
<Remosi> how goes gnue?
<jamest> ok
<Remosi> coming up for another release? :)
<jamest> nope :(
<Remosi> major bugs fixed recently?
<jamest> nope
<Remosi> major features added recently?
<jamest> um......
<jamest> nope
<jamest> :)
<jamest> actually yes and no to the last 2
<jamest> bugs are fixed
<jamest> new work is being done
<jamest> however non is user visible
<jamest> non = none
<Remosi> ah
<Remosi> they're always fun
<Remosi> do a lot of work
<Remosi> and nobody can tell :)
<Remosi> then you get the explosion afterwards
<Remosi> when you can start doing some really *neat* stuff
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<jamest> :)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> wassup?
<jamest> not much
<Remosi> starting the day with a sigh, not a particularly good start :)
<jcater> Remosi: ending the day with a sigh
<jamest> Remosi: he usually starts, end, and fills most of the day with a sigh
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<Remosi> well yes :)
<jcater> ping
<Remosi> pong?
<jcater> sorry
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<fil_c> goodnight all
<jcater> nite
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<jcater> welcome back
<jcater> enjoy the ride?
<dnZzzz> lovely
Nick change: dnZzzz -> derek
<jamest> whoop!
Action: derek is back (gone 05:01:40)
<jamest> it's taken a bit but I'm back in segfault land
<jcater> excellent work
<jcater> I knew you had it in you
<jcater> ;)
<derek> i got lots of segfaults today :)
<derek> actually abusing forms again 
<derek> and designer
<derek> should play now, while i have dcl at my disposal
<derek> jamest: what will it take to fix my email?
<derek> so i get things going to my proper mail box
<derek> or do i just have to read mail on ash?
<derek> mdean: you here?
<derek> hmm new faces, gowlin, Dorao....
<derek> did someone help them at all ?
<jamest> we have to move gnue.org to ash
<jamest> or you can setup a .forward that points anywhere other than gnue.org
<mdean> derek: I is here
<derek> i had a screen for workorders almost completely done in gnue
<derek> then designer ate it :)
<mdean> ouch
<derek> well i should say basic layout, not 'almost' done
<derek> i will start again tonight
<jcater> derek: from the designer README:
<derek> slurping latest dcl
<jcater>   ******************************************************
<jcater>   WARNING: GNUe Designer 0.1.0 is not perfect code.
<jcater>   Odds are, it will crash on you at some point (many
<jcater>   points?), so if using on production forms, work from
<jcater>   a copy and save often.  See BUGS for known issues.
<jcater>   ******************************************************
<derek> jcater: im not complaining
<derek> my own fault for not saving it
<jcater> ;)
<derek> i was just feeling comfy
<derek> was using for nearly 4 hours straight w/ no crashing
<derek> just started to get comfy after hour 2
<derek> and stopped saving
<jamest> l8r 
<jcater> later
<nickr> Odds are that it'll ruin your marriage, give you bad breath and wreck your car
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<jamest> nickr: :)
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<derek> l8r
<derek> http://www.advogato.org/article/395.html
<derek> is truly great
<derek> Some more "rules", posted 16 Dec 2001 by raph
<derek>  (provided great commentary)
<derek> i really needed to hear these today specifically:
<derek>  7. Don't be discouraged by competing projects. Chances are, they will fail.
<derek> 8. Resist the pressure to join forces with a competing project just to save manpower. "Because it will be fun" is a good reason to NIH.
<derek> 9. Accept it when other people adapt your work, perhaps not in the way you intended. It is the free software way.
<derek> 10. If other projects have done useful things you want to steal, go for it. Tying together pieces is a good thing.
<nickr> Heh
<jcater> I hate ext2 with a passion
<nickr> #7 is funny
Action: derek is away: movies
<derek> bbl
<nickr> whats that python library for serializing objects into XML files
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Action: derek is back (gone 01:41:52)
Action: derek is away: bedtime
--- Wed Dec 19 2001