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<jcater> yeah
<jcater> started up x and this pops up :)
<jcater> currently cooking for wife's office tomorrow
<jcater> nothing like waiting until last minute :)
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<dsmith> Howdy People.
<dsmith> Anyone ever use Quixote?  How do you like it?
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<jcater> never heard of it
<dsmith> jcater: It's a python web system thing.
<dsmith> http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/quixote/
<jcater> interesting
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<ajmitch> hi psu
<psu> hi aj
<ajmitch> what's up?
<psu> my connection, for a start
<ajmitch> that's good
<ajmitch> mine won't be for long ;)
<psu> had a long conversation last night
<psu> with a fellow brit
<ajmitch> phone's getting cut off in the morning, i'm moving out in the afternoon
<psu> about some techie accountancy stuff
<ajmitch> k
<psu> aj - no phone = no life
<psu> IMHO
<ajmitch> heh
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<ajmitch> i'm just moving back with my parents for a couple of weeks
<ajmitch> then will be away for a little bit & then reappear on IRC in mid-january ;)
<psu> good stuff
<psu> Final day at work today for most ppl
Action: psu has the graveyard slot on Mon
<psu> systems shut down 1 p.m. Mon anyway
<psu> no Gen Ledger = no life 
<psu> in work terms
<ajmitch> heh
<psu> anyway
<psu> have a good break, aj
<psu> happy holidays all
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<jcater> derek: if you're here: 
<jcater> <entry style="label" ...> 
<jcater> is functional in cvs
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<jamest> good day
<Isomer> good morning :)
<Isomer> how is life treating you on this glorious day?
<jamest> um, ok I guess
<jamest> spent last day finding bugs in forms and thinking about the c/python interface
<jamest> we need clones
<Isomer> clones?
<reinhard> yeah sure
<reinhard> clowns we have enough
<jamest> lol
<jamest> reinhard: did you look at the db stuff any?
<reinhard> btw hello
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> already got more questions for you
<reinhard> may i ?
<Isomer> heh
<jamest> fire away
<reinhard> if i want to keep 2 resultsets
<reinhard> say i want to read/modify a customer
<reinhard> and at the same time have a zipcode record in memory
<jamest> ok
<reinhard> then i need only one DataObject instance
<reinhard> and can generate two ResultSet instances from that single DataObject
<reinhard> by passing 2 queries
<reinhard> is that correct?
<jamest> yes from but dataObject is really dataSource
<reinhard> do i need datasource?
<jamest> yes
<reinhard> ok so single dataSource
<jamest> it ties a connection (we do connection pooling) to a specific table and/or object
<jamest> wait, lemme reread your question
<reinhard> can i use single dataSource for more than one table?
<jamest> um
<jamest> no
<jamest> i misunderstood what you were asking above
<reinhard> so if i have 2 queries
<reinhard> i need 2 DataSource instances
<jamest> you have two datasources
<reinhard> and i get 2 DataObject instances
<reinhard> and 2 ResultSet instances
<reinhard> is that correct?
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<jamest> yes
<jamest> i believe so
<jcater> yes
<jcater> you're right'
<jcater> it is me
<jamest> man, you're making me think too early in the morning
<reinhard> lol
<jamest> jcater 
<jamest> <reinhard> can i use single dataSource for more than one table?
<jamest> <jamest> um
<jamest> <jamest> no
<jamest> <jamest> i misunderstood what you were asking above
<jamest> <reinhard> so if i have 2 queries
<jamest> <reinhard> i need 2 DataSource instances
<jamest> <jamest> you have two datasources
<jamest> <reinhard> and i get 2 DataObject instances
<jamest> <reinhard> and 2 ResultSet instances
<jamest> <reinhard> is that correct?
<jamest> <jamest> yes
<jamest> <jamest> i believe so
<jamest> jcater: am I thinking right?
<jamest> also, the datasources use the connection manager to pool connections
<jcater> yes
<jcater> Well, there can be many resultsets
<jcater> depending on the situation
<jcater> there's ALWAYS a 1:1 mapping between DataObject and DataSource
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> so for my understanding
<jamest> and a 1:1 mapping between a dataSource and a backend table(or object)
<reinhard> why do we have two distinct classes for DataObject and DataSource?
<jamest> to confuse people
<reinhard> and in which cases do we have more than one ResultSet for a single DataObject?
<jamest> at least me anyway
<jcater> reinhard: datasource is just a placeholder until a dataobject is loaded
<jcater> a dataobject is specific to the database provider
<jcater> there'a a PG_DataObject, OracleDataObject, etc
<jcater> that datasource loads transparently
<jcater> I'd prefer to have a single class
<reinhard> ok
<jamest> IIRC we provide wrapper functions in the datasource
<jcater> but it doesn't work out that well :(
<jamest> so that the app programmer never deals with a dataobject
<reinhard> oh jamest that's exactly what i wanted to propose now :)
<jcater> reinhard: master/detail relationships can cause multiple resultsets to be created
<jcater> if you have a master record, there can be multiple resultSets for the detail records
<jcater> mainly useful in an interactive environment such as forms
<reinhard> so if i have multiple master records loaded
<jcater> where there can be unsaved changes in a child resultset, but
<jcater> the user selects a different master record
<reinhard> i have a detail resultset for each master record?
<jamest> reinhard: yes
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> ah
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<jamest> this is very handy in editing 
<jcater> well, if there are unsaved changes
Action: reinhard feels like he's slowly getting it :)
<jamest> as my users wanted to edit all the details for multiple masters
<jcater> I don't recall, do we requery detail sets if they have not changed?
<jamest> without saving between each set
<jamest> jcater: i don't recall either
<jamest> i only grok the data system for a few minutes at a time
<jamest> it'd really be nice to have a graphical breakdown of this puppy
<jamest> but I don't know UML (or whatever people use today)
<jcater> was that a hint?
<reinhard> i think i got that now
<jamest> jcater: no
<jcater> good
<jcater> I thought I'd have to troutslap you
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> i have even one more question
<reinhard> does that system know about data types?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> unfortunately 
<jamest> as it's breaking for form right now!!!!!
<jamest> :P
<jamest> for = my
<jamest> i think
<reinhard> does it check values when fields are set?
<reinhard> like can i do
<jamest> just a sec I'll look
<jcater> reinhard: it's still a work in progress
<jcater> although a fairly far along work
<reinhard> myRecord.setField("salary", "very high")
<reinhard> or will it tell me "invalid numeric value"
<jamest> they are all stored as strings
<jamest> in the recordSet's setField function
<jamest> hmmmmm
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<jcater> jamest: typecasting is on the todo list as forms has to be prepared first
<jamest> that's what has me hmmmm'ing
<jamest> as my form dies on a field that's tied to a data field in the db
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<jamest> data = date
<jamest> but first I must fix something important.....
<jamest> replace GNUe login logo with math logo :)
<reinhard> are the available datatypes listed somewhere?
<jamest> common/src/GTypecast.py i believe
<jamest> this isn't completed btw
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<jcater> sigh
[08:28] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<jamest> jcater: I'm gnue'ing today :)
<jamest> plan on cleanup work as the 0.1.0 test this week found issues
<jamest> that I must fix ASAP
<reinhard> geas/src/classdef/classdef.h contains a list of geas datatypes
<jamest> you should take the day off and return to your closet
<ToyMan> morning all
<reinhard> would be cool if common would define similar (same) types
<jamest> reinhard: It's simple to extend the typecasts
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<jcater> sigh
<jcater>  the entire office is dressed in elf outfits
<jcater> me included
<jamest> argh!
Action: jamest starts clawing at skull
<jamest> must....get...image...out...of....brain
<jbailey> jcater: Elf like keebler, or elf like tolkein? =)
<jcater> keebler
<jcater> the only true elves
<jcater> that's elves, not elvis
<jbailey> must....get...image...out...of....brain
<jcater> (has to clarify, being in memphis and all :)
<jbailey> elvis in an elf outfit. =)
<reinhard> jamest: wrt datatypes i am actually talking about introspection and schema creation
<reinhard> where the datatype will be a parameter to functions
<jamest> introspection is a work in progress, but initial support is there for a few backends
<jamest> it needs added to other backends as we find people with access and knowledge of how to do it
<reinhard> is there a way to ask for the datatype of a given column name?
<reinhard> and if yes how is the result returned?
<jamest> not yet
<jamest> but
<jamest> IIRC we planned on providing that so that designer can preset forms options
<jamest> that way int fields automatically get set to numeric input only mode
<jamest> etc, etc
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<reinhard> exactly
<jamest> it's depressing
<jamest> the more that is done the more there is todo
<reinhard> that's the downside of top down implementation i think
<jamest> there is an upside to all of this?
<jbailey> Well, you guys are slugging through the same hard way that Hurd is:  Build an infrastructure, and don't settle for "well this will work for now"
<jamest> actually we do settle for that
<jbailey> It doesn't seem like you do terribly often.
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<reinhard> jamest: to replace the dbdriver in geas we would need fully functional introspection and schema creation methods
<reinhard> at least for postgres
<jamest> understood
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<jamest> off topic - anyone know how to make gimp change a color to transparent?
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<jcater> the schema introspection in postgresql is fairly complete
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<jcater> the schema introspection in postgresql is fairly complete
<jamest> i didn't think we pulled field types yet?
<reinhard> field types are not _that_ important
<reinhard> schema creation methods would be more important
<reinhard> i.e. create table, add column etc
<jamest> hmmmm
<jcater> jamest: yes, we do
<jamest> jcater: cool
<jcater> but we don't have schema creation
<jcater> of course, until we looked at having geas use our dbdrivers, they weren't necessary :)
<jcater> but shouldn't be hard to add
<jamest> i don't think it be ha...
<jamest> nevermind :)
<jamest> I imagine we could easily add a SQL92 compliant module for building the needed sql
<jamest> then let individual drivers extend this
<jcater> yes
<jamest> sigh
<jcater> tell it we need a number field that holds at least 8 positions, 
<jamest> sound like more work
<jcater> and have it use the appropriate data type
<reinhard> jcater: you might want to look at the predefined datatypes
<reinhard> we use in geas
<reinhard> geas/src/classdef/classdef.h contains a list of geas datatypes
<reinhard> however it's sabines birthday party this evening
<reinhard> and i must help prepare
<reinhard> so i'm off for today
<reinhard> l8r all
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<jbailey> jamest: The things I've found that's cool about the KC-Gnue's is that I learned there alot more happening than I expected. =)
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<jamest> lol
<jamest> yeah
<jamest> theres always someone breaking something
<jbailey> lol
<jamest> it's what we do
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<jamest> jbailey: you still looking at the autoconf stuff?
<jbailey> jamest: Not in the last couple of weeks, but I'm going to take another run at it over christmas.
<jbailey> Someone has now produced Debian packages for the cygwin-cross environment, which is nice, too.
<jcater> dammit
<jcater> I'm jingling
<jamest> lol
<jamest> you're an elf! be jolly damnit!
<jcater> well, there are reasons to be jolly 
<jamest> btw - what does it say about the company when the owner dresses up like santa and you all have to be elves?
<jcater> with all the elf outfits in the office
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> no
<jcater> hey, it's friday!
<jamest> don't say it
<jamest> too late
<jcater> yeah, I guess my rum cake did the trick the other day
<jcater> why else would we all be in costume
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> our sample app for next december
<jcater> should be a supply chain setup for santa's workshop
<jamest> others should suffer to - thought process went like this -> elves -> those tight pants things -> jcater is tight elf pants
<jcater> it'd be a great publicity stunt for GNUe
<jamest> :)
<jamest> lol
<jcater> we could do it under gnome w/a red and green theme
<jamest> it would be kinda neat
<jcater> I'm dead serious
<jcater> it'd be a great stunt
<jamest> this is too wierd 
<jcater> setup santa.gnue.org
<jamest> Gdk-WARNING **: shmget failed: error 28 (No space left on device)
<jamest> every time I start forms on solaris
<jamest> man, that only gives us 12 months to get gnue usable!
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<jcater> jamest: nah
<jcater> we only need a demo
<jcater> and everyone knows demos don't have to work :)
<jamest> just the man to implement it!
<jbailey> jamest: Define ``usable''.  Some pieces are usable now.
<jbailey> dneighbo: Run.  run for your life.
<jamest> usable == I don't need happy pills after i look at the TODO list
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<jamest> yes, its usable now
<jamest> lol
<jamest> bugs in the debug output make things a bit confusing :)
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Action: dneighbo run?
<dneighbo> hmm
<dneighbo> what are we wanting to implement/
<dneighbo> btw: 2 tier is VERY usable
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<jamest> tell that to my forms
<dneighbo> sometimes its frustrating as you have unlearn some 'behaviors' but on the whole its pretty darn powerful
<jamest> !@#!@# thing
<jcater> dneighbo: we want to do a "Santa's Workshop" supply-chain management
<jcater> for next christmas
<jamest> the forms authors are crack fiends!
<jcater> a publicity stunt
<jcater> :)
<jamest> sigh
<jcater> oh
<jcater> and we volunteered you to do it
<jcater> and with the red clothing, you can be santa too :)
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<dneighbo> as long as i dont have to wear the 'tight pant things' jamest was referring too, im cool with it :)
<jamest> nah, we got a deer suit and a red nose for you
<jbailey> dneighbo: errr.. define ``tight'' =)
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<dneighbo> anyone here know how to represent tab as html entity?
<dneighbo> i.e. space is &nbsp;
<dneighbo> what is tab?
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<grib> a diet alternative to coca-cola?
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> i thin &tab;
<dneighbo>  might work
<dneighbo> dang, no dice, will have to wait for mdean to surface to see whats up
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<jamest> argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Action: jamest bashes head on desk
<dneighbo> whew... workaround for now... damn html sucks
Action: dneighbo declares web apps lick bag
<jamest> dneighbo: i'll trade ya
<jamest> if you drive to TN and force jcater to quit cleaning, rehook the net up, and answer some questions
<jamest> i'll give the the URL : http://www.willcam.com/cmat/html/old30.html#Horizontal Tab
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<dneighbo> jamest: cool but i used brute force elsewhere to make it happen
<jamest> argh!
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<dneighbo> jamest you here?
<dneighbo> any postgres masters out there?
<dneighbo> is there an easy way to run a query in psql and have it auto dump to csv or some flat file?
<grib> dneighbo: yep
<grib> how about this: 
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<dneighbo> i know you can set 'output' of psql to a file
<dneighbo> but didnt know if you could 'format' it
<grib> you want 'copy to'
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<dneighbo> http://www.ninthwonder.com/info/postgres/user/sql-copy.htm
<dneighbo> seems to show some stuff
<grib> \help copy in psql has the syntax
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<dneighbo> grib i think that does what i want BUT
<dneighbo> it wont let me write to file only stdout
<dneighbo> w/o being superabuser in psql
<dneighbo> which im not in this particular case
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<grib> dneighbo: sucky.  is that even if you give it a full path name? 
<dneighbo> yep
<dneighbo> but i found work around 
Action: dneighbo hugs unix
<grib> what's the w/around? 
<dneighbo> psql -c "COPY templist TO stdout USING DELIMITERS ',';" > /path/to/myfile/filename
<dneighbo> which is just stupid
<dneighbo> as it will let you issue to stdout or stdin 
<dneighbo> but not a file
<dneighbo> unless you are SU
<dneighbo> but using the -c for shell scripting lets you circumvent this
<dneighbo> anyhow im happy now :)
<grib> yabbut you con see why they did that ... otherwise, you could get postgres to write a file as the postgres user with basically arbitrary content
<dneighbo> grib yeah i guess
<grib> which is a no-no
<dneighbo> im suprised they didnt document this though
<dneighbo> as in the help they document something pretty complex
<dneighbo> as you cant mix and match sql and psql'isms
<dneighbo> but they give an example on how to circumvent this in the -c command
<jamest> ?
<jamest> dneighbo: the sql copy command goes to the same machine as the server
<jamest> the psql \copy command implements the same features for the user and can be used on remote systems
<jamest> when you heading to TN?
<jamest> :)
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<Mr_You_> sigh, possible first CC fraud case
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<Mr_You_> http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html
<jcater> woohoo
<jcater> I have internet again
<jcater> :)
<Mr_You_> heh
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<dneighbo> jamest thanks
<dneighbo> can \copy do remote via ssh?
<jamest> it only copies to the machine running psql (it's a psql feature)
<dneighbo> the psql \copy command implements the same features for the user and
<dneighbo>           can be used on remote systems
<dneighbo> <jamest> when you heading to TN?
<dneighbo> so you can use it remotely by...
<dneighbo> psql -h blah
<dneighbo> is that what you meant by 'remote' machines?
<jamest> yes
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<chillywilly> sup?
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<jcater> yo, yo, yo
<jamest> jcater - we abadoning patches branch for now?
<jamest> right?
<jamest> just working in head
<jcater> yes
<jamest> cool
<chillywilly> who is patches ;)?
<jamest> i think we have something that warrents a 0.1.1 release of forms
<chillywilly> aw shit
<jcater> wassat?
Action: chillywilly feels ghetto today
<chillywilly> sheeeeet
<jamest> could someone with 0.1.0 try and edit a field that is of type int in the database
<chillywilly> man I need a nap
<jamest> I think it'll blow up as I *think* my install here is 0.1.0
Action: chillywilly throws bomb-filled trout at jamest
<chillywilly> er, trout bombs even
<chillywilly> ;)
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<chillywilly> whassup 'g'
<psu> quiet tonite
<psu> you'd think it was Xmas or something
<psu> ;-)
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> s/X/christ/
Action: chillywilly doesn't celebrate "Xmas" ;)
<jcater> wow
<jcater> slashdot reports important stuff now
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> like what?
<jcater> "Christmas is Coming"
<jcater> top headline
<chillywilly> rofl
<chillywilly> they are on top of their game man
<psu> tut
<psu> bet linuxtoday missed that story
<psu> and they only had 2000 years warning ;-)
<jamest> are 2000 samples enough to consider it a non-random event?
<psu> only to a certain confidence limit
Action: psu used to vaguely understand stats
<chillywilly> stats....eeeek
<psu> now it's gone the way of my schoolboy french
<jcater> I love Lawrence Lessig
<jcater> did anyone read his interview on /.?
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> I do like some of his stuff though
<jcater> "And this leads me to the greatest pessimism: If you guys don't get the importance of neutral and open platforms to innovation and creativity; if you get bogged down in 20th century debates about libertarianism and property rights; if you can't see how the .commons was critical to the .com revolution, then what do expect from judges? "
<jcater> this was addressed to the /. readership
<jcater> :)
Action: chillywilly never reads slushdot anymore
<jcater> me either
Action: jcater is wasting time
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> what exactly is "libertarianism" anyway? I try to make sense of it, but it's just seems to be a form of anarchy
<chillywilly> and ESR sure doesn't make it look good
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> not to me anyway
<jcater> lib*er*tar*i*an (lbr-tār-n)
<jcater>  n. 
<jcater> One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
<psu> but it can't be an absolute
<jcater> psu: right'
<psu> same principle as free software
<chillywilly> but the state has to be there for protecting individulas rights
<jcater> you see a lot of libertarian free software people
<chillywilly> doesn't it?
<chillywilly> yes, I know
<psu> none of use would be there if free s/w was truely free
<psu> i.e. you could abuse the freedom to deny freedom of others
<chillywilly> anyone ever read that thing this guy wrote called, "Libertarianism Amkes You Stupid
<chillywilly> "?
<chillywilly> er, Makes
<psu> sounds like a PJ O'Rourke
<psu> ?
<chillywilly> http://www.spectacle.org/897/finkel.html
<chillywilly> I just think he has a bit of a jaded view of it
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I guess I myself am more of a conservative libertarian
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater is trying to picture that
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> lessig rocks
<chillywilly> You tell me I have to justify Alice Randall's right to speak? I want to say in response something we lawyers don't say enough: Bullshit.
<chillywilly> lessig is not as nuts as rms though....rms has the best view of copyright ;), imho
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<jamest> bbl
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<chillywilly> hrrrrm
<chillywilly> why is lessig goingon about decentralized authentication/.NET stuff and not mentioing dotGNU?
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<dneighbo> hmmm missed a bit
<dneighbo> i like to call myself about the only 'christian libertarian'
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> i think of it EXACTLY like free software
<dneighbo> in sense that the only 'restrictions' should be 'restrictions' to protect 
<dneighbo> 'individual' 
<dneighbo> i.e.  i wouldnt want to live in a BSD society :)
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<dneighbo> hi GeoDex 
<dneighbo> hi neilt 
<neilt> morning all
<neilt> dneighbo:  hello
<GeoDex> hey
<GeoDex> brb
<neilt> dneighbo: anything going on,  have not had time to read the logs
<dneighbo> dont know i have been a slave lately
<dneighbo> so even when here not here :)
<dneighbo> i think jamest and reinhard have been steadily moving towards working geas support
<neilt> slave at home or work
<dneighbo> neilt : both
<dneighbo> holiday cheer and all ;)
<dneighbo> i think reinhard is looking at making GEAS work with GNUe Common for DB support (or so it appeared yesterday)
<neilt> excellent
<neilt> should not be too hard
<dneighbo> as they were debating best way to approach the interface
<neilt> (as long as someone else is doing it :)
<dneighbo> i heard jcater volunteer ;)
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<GeoDex> heh
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<GeoDex> hmm...2.4.17 :)
<GeoDex> 2.5.x started
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<ra3vat> hello all
<nickr> ahoy
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--- Sat Dec 22 2001