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<derek> man they will let anyone in here
<ajmitch> yeah, i know
<ajmitch> you'd think they'd at least try & keep out the troublemakers
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<ajmitch> hi again psu
<psu> hi
<psu> got my nick registered now
<psu> bwahahah
<ajmitch> heh
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<neilt> morning all
<ajmitch> morning
<reinhard> morning neil
<reinhard> and ajmitch
<neilt> reinhard:  i saw your notes yesterday and am confused as you on the common stuff
<neilt> I think I will wait untill we are ready to collectively attack it
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> i think i will be able to breath again around end of january
<neilt> i hope i can
<neilt> these 13 hour days are killing me
<reinhard> i can feel your pain
<reinhard> believe me...
<neilt> likewise
<reinhard> however i can see a light at the end of the tunnel
<neilt> not me
<neilt> sometime when you have time i will tell you a story you will just not believe
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<jbailey> chillywilly: "working" again? =)
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<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> what are you doing?
<chillywilly> "working"?
Action: chillywilly is actual entering the test data into the computer
<chillywilly> actually
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Action: chillywilly should get a tape drive
<chillywilly> hey how can I fix this zip drive that a pin broke off of?
<chillywilly> (one of the ide pins)
<jbailey> Soldering iron...
<jbailey> Probably need to replace the connector.
<chillywilly> you can replace just the connector part of it?
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<jbailey> If the other option is throwing it out, yeah. =)
<chillywilly> er?
<chillywilly> I don't want to have to throw it out
<chillywilly> it came off whrn aI installed a burner into my mom's computer
<chillywilly> or atleats that's what I think the problem is
<jbailey> Hmm..  You could try claiming it under warantee.
<chillywilly> because the BIOS does not see the xip drive anymore
<chillywilly> s/xip/zip
<chillywilly> I rejockeyed ide cables
<chillywilly> I noticed that in the upper right 2rd one in that a pin is missing
<chillywilly> er, 3rd
<chillywilly> I don't think it is supposed to be like that ;P
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<jbailey> Yeah.  Check to see if they've cover it under warantee.  I suspect they won't, but it's worth a shot.
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<dneighbo> hi SteveDPerk and joebullhead 
<dneighbo> new faces, you get your questions answered (if you had any?)
<chillywilly> bye
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<jbailey> Uncle Derek, Uncle Derek, why is the sky blue?
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<dneighbo> jbailey : cause it is not red
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<dneighbo> hello darkbane 
<darkbane> hi :)
<dneighbo> you use gnue?
<darkbane> not yet
<darkbane> would be of no use to me, either. i'm a student
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<dneighbo> it would let you keep track of your test scores
<dneighbo> yeah thats the ticket
<darkbane> considering that i have a test once a month..
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<darkbane> "GNUe already has representation on development team from Austria"
<darkbane> is that one of you guys? :)
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<ra3vat> hello all
<darkbane> hi
<ra3vat> hello darkbane
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<dneighbo> darkbane that is rm-away 
<dneighbo> also known as reinhard
<dneighbo> he is lustenau?
<dneighbo> i know there have been one or two others that have inquired or stopped by from parts of austria in the past
<dneighbo> recently someone here in the states (from austria) inquired about gnue (is that you?_
<dneighbo> _
<dneighbo> )
<dneighbo> darn fingers :)
<darkbane> oops
<darkbane> i'm back, sorry
<darkbane> yeah, i found that info myself now, also
<darkbane> i'm from austria too, so that's why i asked
<darkbane> as to your question, no, that wasn't me
<dneighbo> its late there right?
<dneighbo> i think reinhard is in bed or out of office by now
<dneighbo> he generally comes back about 24:00 my time or in about 12 hours :)
<dneighbo> so actually he probably is still lingering somewhere for another hour or two
<darkbane> it's 8:30 PM
<dneighbo> so you interested in workign on gnue?
<darkbane> heh
<dneighbo> or just have some uses for it after you are done with school?
<darkbane> i'm not an especially good coder, but my interest was in that department
<dneighbo> or just curious why people would write free software for commerce for fun :)
<darkbane> eh, i run linux, free soft is not a new concept to me 
<dneighbo> darkbane well i think people sometimes view 'good coder' in skewed ways
<dneighbo> one need not be a kernel hacker to be a good programmer 
<darkbane> explain
<darkbane> oh
<darkbane> heh
<darkbane> no, what i meant by that was that i have little to show
<dneighbo> in business environment generally teh better 'hacker' you are the 'worse you are to a business'
<darkbane> i was looking for some project where i could contribute without having to bear the responsibility of failure. heh. i guess you could say i'm insecure
<dneighbo> also if its a matter of 'novice' or beginner rather than bad programmer one of the beauties i see in gnue is that there is lots of experience here
<dneighbo> and most of the developers are VERY gracious and good teachers
<darkbane> hehe
<dneighbo> i.e. they use constructive criticism and 'explain' things w/o lots of frustration
<dneighbo> darkbane well i think gnue might be the place for you :)
<darkbane> i'm also very slow, due to time constraints :(
<darkbane> you sound like you're the PR department of GNUe, you know
<dneighbo> gnue has never been criticized for turning products too quickly :)
<dneighbo> darkbane : thats because in many ways i am :)
<darkbane> heh
<darkbane> i should've known
<dneighbo> i kind of handle pr, marketing, project managment, product development and quality assurance :)
<dneighbo> loosely
<darkbane> i was looking for a TODO list of the project, but i guess i'll have to download it
<dneighbo> so you are getting 'double hit'
<darkbane> lol
<dneighbo> as the project manager part of me smells new blood to help remove items off the TODO list
<dneighbo> and the PR part of me is helping sell you a bridge ;)
<darkbane> don't expect me to solve all your problems :p
<dneighbo> i dont thats what jcater is for ;)
<dneighbo> what interests you most?
<darkbane> is he lead programmer or something?
<darkbane> i dunno, this is a new kind of thing
<dneighbo> yes and no, he is churning most code currently but jamest is lead programmer
<darkbane> i never used xml, or wxwindows
<dneighbo> ok let me perhaps break down the options some :)
<dneighbo> you have choice of language
<dneighbo> C or python
<darkbane> C
<darkbane> definitely
<darkbane> lol
<darkbane> or asm, but i doubt you need that
<dneighbo> if you want to do C then it wont be wxWindows and wont much be xml
<dneighbo> as we use C for backend stuff (our middleware) currently
<dneighbo> let me fetch its todo list
<darkbane> ok let's see. thank you
<dneighbo> hmm its dated nov 21 so it might be slightly dated
<darkbane> how much gets done in a month?
<dneighbo> btw: reinhard (from austria) is leading the development of GEAS (GNUe Application Server)
<dneighbo> and thus would be the person you would work most closely with
<dneighbo> http://lxr.gnue.org/gnue/source/geas/TODO
<dneighbo> is a link to the the TODO
<darkbane> i see
<dneighbo> we are in process of moving to DCL for our todo's and project management
<dneighbo> darkbane : it all depends on teh month
<dneighbo> pretty much everyone is a volunteer so it depends
<darkbane> dcl?
<darkbane> hang on
<dneighbo> http://dcl.sourceforge.net is the project
<dneighbo> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/dclgw/ is our implementation
<darkbane> thanks
<darkbane> i was finding tons of non-relevant links, lol
<darkbane> oh, heh
<darkbane> that's the last one i found
<darkbane> ok i see, kinda like sourceforge
<dneighbo> um in some ways
<dneighbo> more project management/call center based
<dneighbo> probably closer in many ways to bugzilla
<darkbane> heh. "enable long options and check options consistency with gnu standards". that's the only one i understand
<dneighbo> well sounds like a good place to start ;)
<darkbane> i'm gonna get the source to geas and see what i can do
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<Yurik> re
<darkbane> "To contribute to GNUe you will also have to sign a Free Software Foundation copyright assignment".. that's a joke or..?
Action: Yurik thinks that it is not joke, but dunno exactly
<Yurik> since Yurik is not GNUe contributor or user :-)
<darkbane> lol
<darkbane> i'm neither, so far
Action: Yurik is just running his ERP/SCM project :-)
<darkbane> erp/scm?
<Yurik> yep
Action: darkbane googles
<Yurik> enterprise resource planning, supply chain management
<Yurik> erp/scm is not the name of the project
<darkbane> lol
<dneighbo> darkbane : not a joke
<darkbane> dneighbo: for adding a standard feature, too?
<dneighbo> to contribute you need not 'join' the free software foundation
Action: Yurik is drinking juice... eeeh..
<darkbane> i know what it means, i can read english
<dneighbo> you do need to assign/disclaim copyright
<darkbane> i just don't like signing stiff. lol
<dneighbo> any thing beyond like 5 or 10 lines we need assignment on
<darkbane> even if i'm unemployed
<darkbane> ?
<dneighbo> this is so we can protect gnue
<dneighbo> the disclaimer prevents us from having to retract code that a contributors employer or school tries to claim as their property
<darkbane> see above
<dneighbo> and an assignment assures we can protect GNUe in license matters
<dneighbo> its a 'practical' requirement
<darkbane> it's stupid. anyway, would you have me mail it to you?
<dneighbo> if we had say 100 people contribute code to gnue
<dneighbo> we would have to know exactly what lines each of them wrote and how to contact them
<dneighbo> if we got involved in a GPL protection case
<darkbane> ok ok, cut down on the philosophy. heh. sorry
<dneighbo> ex: in 5 years SAP starts to use parts of GNUe in their software
<dneighbo> and so we have to sue them for violation of GPL
<dneighbo> we would have to round up a hundred folks to do so
<darkbane> i was just looking for a way of remaining lazy
<dneighbo> by having a single entity with assignment it makes life more simple :)
<dneighbo> btw: other groups like python foundation, gnome foundation etc etc are moving to this as well...
<darkbane> what's the logistics of it look like?
<dneighbo> i dont mean to over philosphize, just wanted to help you better understand our 'logic' of requiring it
<darkbane> i know your logic, it's the same that fsf advertises on their pages
<dneighbo> way it works is i send you an email that asks like 5 questions (basically name, address, what files you have touched if any etc etc etc)
<dneighbo> you fill that out and email to fsfrecords
<dneighbo> they draw up an assignment and snail mail it to you for signature
<dneighbo> you read sign and return
<dneighbo> really rather painless
<darkbane> lol
Action: dneighbo wishes there was 'quicker' process :)
<darkbane> digital signatures
<dneighbo> yeah would be nice
<darkbane> it won't work with snail mail 10 years down the road tho, i don't think
<dneighbo> i suppose an alternative (which maybe I should bring up with RMS and eben)
<dneighbo> would be that currently debian and others do 'key' signings to validate 'keys'
<dneighbo> if there was a way to record those keys somewhere wonder if legally one could then accept the key in lieu of the signature
<dneighbo> probably not (but would be interesting concept)
<darkbane> but there's centers to store keys etc at MIT
<darkbane> and what about verisign?
<dneighbo> all the better that is where fsf lives (mit) ;)
<darkbane> heh
<dneighbo> hmm verisign is interesting concept for such things
<dneighbo> but i think its prop nature would prevent fsf from considering it in that regard
<darkbane> heh
<dneighbo> i noticed some new laptops have fingerprint authentication
<darkbane> fsf is so anti-proprietary it reminds me of the communists
<darkbane> not to bash fsf or anything
<dneighbo> and you can pick up a reader for under 100 at fry's for a pc
<darkbane> humm that's still proprietary tho :p
<dneighbo> i suppose if they became common part of every machine like a floppy drive
<darkbane> interesting
<dneighbo> that one could start the passing of 'fingerprints' to do things
<dneighbo> although admittedly it woudl be scary :)
<darkbane> then ppl would complain about fingerprinting under duress
<dneighbo> i suppose it would make interesting....
<dneighbo> 2000 : thug : give me your wallet or i shoot you
<dneighbo> 2010 : thug : give me your thumb or i blow your brains out
<darkbane> blah. we'll have cyberspace by that time. i'll walk to your office and sign it digitally
<darkbane> 2020: dna 
<dneighbo> i can see the call now
<dneighbo> victim dials 1800verisign
<dneighbo> victim: i was just mugged, id like to call my thumb in as stolen
<darkbane> lol
<darkbane> verisign: what's your thumb's serial number?
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> verisign: sir we will prevent any further transactions, but we cant close your thumb until all current transactions are processed, if you happen to relocate your thumb in the next 3 days please notify us and we can reactivate your account... thank you for using verisign
<darkbane> heh
<darkbane> i won't be surprised tho, it's america
<darkbane> anything goes
<darkbane> i heard they sued god the other day
<dneighbo> fbi director: johnny hardass i would like to announce you the new director of thumb fraud division
<darkbane> no
<darkbane> it'll be the center for homeland security
<darkbane> they'll take over the vbi
<dneighbo> ah yes my bad
<dneighbo> my quote of the day
<dneighbo> "The difference between stupidy and genius is that genius has its limits."
<darkbane> are you bashing me? :)
<dneighbo> no america
<darkbane> lol ok
<dneighbo> you stated you wouldnt be suprised...
<darkbane> yeah
<dneighbo> i was agree stupidity has no limits :)
<darkbane> not over there, anyway
<dneighbo> well thats not true i mean its limited in that there are only 24 hours in a day :)
Action: dneighbo needs to update debian more often, upgrade is slurping up 260+ new packages
<darkbane> lol we love the USA, eh
<dneighbo> thats ok USA love arnold
<darkbane> heh. i updated my debian once, installed new glibc
<darkbane> i had to reinstall after that
<darkbane> what version is your deb?
<dneighbo> i havent had to 'reinstall' debian since i found nickr 
<darkbane> nickr?
<dneighbo> our resident debian package master
<dneighbo> when you feel all is lost and apt is kicking your ass
<darkbane> how did he help? lol
<dneighbo> call nickr
<darkbane> i should've done that back when i was fighting TeX
<dneighbo> um he helped by giving pages of cryptic apt and dpkg command line parameters to fix brokeness
<darkbane> lol
<dneighbo> of course he likes to add things like
<dneighbo> 'well this isnt the right way to do it' and 'you shouldnt try this at home' BUT 'it should make it so you can use your system'
<darkbane> lol
<darkbane> i think i need a copy of those
<dneighbo> you know real confidence boosters
<darkbane> heh.
<darkbane> i just install things the old fashioned way nowadays
<darkbane> via rm -f and install
<darkbane> and the delete key in mc
<darkbane> does wonders
<dneighbo> i am reduced to tar.gz installs on my redhat box
<dneighbo> as redcarpet ate my rpm database :)
<dneighbo> im better off though, until i can replace it with debian
<dneighbo> all my debian boxes i pretty religiously use apt
<darkbane> heh
<darkbane> 'all my boxes'
<darkbane> i have one :(
Action: darkbane hides in the corner
<dneighbo> as long as that one isnt 'windows' we will forgive you ;)
<darkbane> actualy
<darkbane> it's deb/win dual
<dneighbo> thats acceptable
<darkbane> and besides, you're using wxwindows, which is portable to windows
<dneighbo> please note that why we are a GNU project
<dneighbo> and we do hold many of the ideals of FSF
<dneighbo> we are not RMS :)
<darkbane> lol
<darkbane> i'd clean out windows, but then all my games are void
<darkbane> and don't tell me to install wine
<dneighbo> there are a few things that windows is still needed for
<dneighbo> but its getting closer to obsolete
<dneighbo> and for most folks windows is not necessary only in cases of specific applications having no equivalents and such
<darkbane> it's still very userfriendly. takes some time to adopt to linux and make it work
<darkbane> heh, true. i'd love to see dreamweaver ported to linux
<darkbane> and we need a paperport port, too
<darkbane> brb, gotta reboot
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<darkbane> ahh.. good old wmaker@deb :)
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<dneighbo> hell User_ 
<dneighbo> er hello even
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<dneighbo> hello psu
<dneighbo> man apt-get upgrade is taking a bit on this old beast, the packages downloaded pretty quick but installing them is taking a long time :)
<psu_> hi dn
Action: psu_ is going to install debian on a PC tomorrow
<psu_> this machine is dual boot
Action: darkbane complains about an ailing 56k
<dneighbo> cool
<psu_> but the new one will be penguin onmly
<psu_> it's an old 486/66
<psu_> Main problem is lack of a CD
<psu_> so I shall have to boot off floppy
<dneighbo> should just need 3 disks
<dneighbo> rescue, boot and driver (iirc)
<dneighbo> then you can do a 'net' install
<psu_> PC doesn't have network card, so I will have to use PPP/ftp
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> that seems toasty
<psu_> toasty?
<dneighbo> toasty == makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside
<dneighbo> i.e. doesnt sound fun
<psu_> well, I have unmetered dial up these days
<psu_> so I guess it's just an overnight download
<psu_> Other alternative is to use a laplink-style cable to the other PC
<psu_> and hijack the CD-ROM off that 
<psu_> (set it up as an FTP server or somesuch)
<psu_> but I'm not sure that's either poss or desirable
<psu_> time for bed
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<darkbane> time to save bandwith and costs :)
<darkbane> cya later, when i have some code done hopefully
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<reinhard> hey looks like i missed someone
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<reinhard> <darkbane> "GNUe already has representation on development team from Austria"
<reinhard> this line made me feel quite strange :)
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<jbailey>  /topic The beatings will continue until moral improves - The Masta!
<jbailey> =)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> why's that?
<chillywilly> who has low moral today?
Action: chillywilly whips out his trout
<reinhard> night all
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<dneighbo> bbl
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<chillywilly> hi neilt
<neilt> hey, whats up
<chillywilly> hacking
<neilt> a steak or code?
<neilt> :)
<ajmitch> chillywilly hacking?
<neilt> i think he defines that as a good thing
Action: ajmitch looks out the window for a blue moon
<neilt> anybody here done a Siebel implementation?
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<chillywilly_> duh
<chillywilly_> hacking is like writing code and stuff
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<jbailey> ajmitch: Is the full moon today?  I thought it looked quite full.
Action: chillywilly swings his trout around wildly
<ajmitch> jbailey: dunno, it's too overcast here :)
<chillywilly> cathcing jbailey's on the nose
<chillywilly> catching
<jbailey> Hey, if you can't spell it, it didn't happen ;)
<chillywilly> uh, I can spell it my fingers just didn't cooperate
<chillywilly> so there :P
<jbailey> Exactly.  What happens if you're wielding a trout and your fingers don't cooperate?  You miss! =)
<chillywilly> I can wield trout better than I can type though
<chillywilly> so your argument is moot
<chillywilly> just give it up
<chillywilly> I win
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> ugh
Action: chillywilly is reading talkbacks on the GNUStep debacle
<chillywilly> someone referred to the FSF as the open source taliban
<chillywilly> *sigh*
Action: chillywilly must be a terrorist then
<chillywilly> oh wait that's according to Bush's new bill
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> "Free Software is neat, but not a moral imperative"
<chillywilly> er, sorry
<chillywilly> "neat idea"
Action: Yurik is back
<Isomer> heh
<ajmitch> hi Isomer
<Isomer> G'evenin'
<Isomer> howzit goin'?
<ajmitch> alright
<chillywilly> howdy Isomer
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<chillywilly> l8r
Action: chillywilly is going to go race cars with hsi son on the race track they built
<chillywilly> ;)
<Isomer> er
<Isomer> I hope it's a slotcar track
<ajmitch> cool ;)
<chillywilly> take care all
<chillywilly> yep
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<chillywilly> keep fighting the good fight
Action: Yurik thinks to sleep, it's too late... err... morning :)
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Action: Yurik is thinking to go to sleep, it's too late... err... morning :)
<Yurik> :]
<chillywilly> got o bed Yurik
<chillywilly> :P
Action: ajmitch needs some headphones
Action: chillywilly has some
<Yurik> or not to sleep... may by just go home and sleep there? :]
<chillywilly> ok, I am going now
<chillywilly> have fun
<chillywilly> happy hacking
<ajmitch> ok
<chillywilly> :)
<ajmitch> bye
<chillywilly> bye
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--- Sat Dec 29 2001