[00:12] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
Action: nickr lives!
<chillywilly> kewl
<chillywilly> that's good to know
<chillywilly> :)
<Yurik> :]
<nickr> yea, keep that in mind for future rference
<chillywilly> gotcha
Action: Yurik eventually decided to go home to sleep
<Yurik> bye all
<chillywilly> night
<chillywilly> (or day ;) )
<Yurik> yeah, day :)
<nickr> I'm bored bored bored
<nickr> what could i do in 10 minutes that'd be infinitely useful?
<chillywilly> do seomthing useful then
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> hrrrrrrrm
<chillywilly> 10 mins is not much to work with nickr
<nickr> Well thats the trick, see
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<nickr> I think I'm bored enough to NMU grub with a fix in update-grub
<nickr> nah
<chillywilly> you are a debian guy now?
<nickr> have been since about mid august I think
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> that's something I really need to learn how to do
<chillywilly> (make a debian package)
<nickr> me too
<nickr> :)
<nickr> I got in due to my work on Hurd
<nickr> Its not hard though
<nickr> Well
<nickr> In some ways its tricky
<nickr> because you should provide nice tools and such for command line commandos that like little utilities
<nickr> I see lots of places where these should be included but the bastards that do the packaing don't bother
<nickr> which is why that guy was ranting about lessening qualit
<nickr> I should start filing bugs like a manman
<nickr> madman
<chillywilly> a set of common scripts?
<chillywilly> that they should use?
<nickr> No
<nickr> I mean like Squirrelmail for example should have a script to setup virtual domains
<nickr> its an easy script, useful script
<nickr> Thats just an example
<nickr> there are much better examples that I can't think of now
<nickr> but its the sort of little detail that makes debian debian
<nickr> like how grub has update-grub
<nickr> its huge!
<nickr> too bad its a bash script that lists /bin/sh :)
<nickr> noop
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<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<reinhard> morning
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<chillywilly> hey psullivan
<psullivan> hi cw
<psullivan> got netsplit 
<psullivan> so now there are 2 of me 
<psullivan> ;-)
<chillywilly> not anymore
<chillywilly> one pinged out
Action: chillywilly needs batteries for his wireless mouse
Nick change: psullivan -> psu
<chillywilly> I am damn sick of this touchpad
<psu> This afternoon's project for me
<psu> is to get Debian GNU/Linux installed 
<chillywilly> cool
<psu> on a spare PC we "Liberated" from father in law
<chillywilly> my project is going to be cleaning up this damn messy plac
<chillywilly> place
<psu> Of course, we will both end up talking to each other instead
<psu> ;-)
<psu> IRC = life
Action: chillywilly will unfortunately have to take down hus computers in order to move then
<chillywilly> them
<chillywilly> I can help with your debian install
<psu> I *should* be OK
<psu> but will shout if I need anything
<psu> biggest problem is likely to be the Plug & Pray modem
<chillywilly> uhuh
<chillywilly> hehe
<psu> not good, I understand
<chillywilly> what sorta drivers you using for that?
<chillywilly> is that a winmodem?
<psu> no - it's a "real" modem 
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> pci?
<psu> but you have to use PnP for it
<chillywilly> ick
<chillywilly> fun fun fun
<psu> i.e. Win 3.1 users need to install legacy support for PnP
<psu> main problem is that the modem grabs a port PnP style
<psu> you don;t set it yourself via jumpers etc
<chillywilly> oy vey
<psu> once it's up and running, no problems
<chillywilly> you use the pnptools?
<chillywilly> just sounds like a pain to get working under gnu/linux
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> will have to - couldn't find them on debian 
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<psu> manuf's web site referred to red hat
<chillywilly> it si ISA?
<chillywilly> s/si/is
<chillywilly> ii  isapnptools          1.26-1               ISA Plug-And-Play configuration utilities.
<psu> which is I suppose better than most mfr's attitude to linux i.e. go away 
<psu> will have a look
<psu> should be ISA
Action: chillywilly just ran pnpdump
Action: chillywilly is using debian sid thoug
<chillywilly> though
<psu> Starting MS-DOS
<chillywilly> ok, well I'll be back shrotly
<psu> Found Plug & Play ISA Card 
<chillywilly> I have to move these computers over to the computer desk
<psu> So that looks OK
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> cu
<chillywilly> l8r
<psu> I need to rawrite anyway
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<chillywilly> stupid thing
<chillywilly> I can't get it to shutdown
<chillywilly> (my server)
<chillywilly> this makes no sense
<chillywilly> shutdown -h now doesn't actually make it shutdown it displays the stupid message and that's it
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<psu> hi jb
<psu> bbl
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<jbailey> Heya psu
<psu> hi jb
<psu> GNUe KC #9 is up
<psu> Thanks for the headquote ;-)
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<derek> woo hoo
<derek> i need debian on this machine NOW
<derek> im dying over here w/ redhat and tar.gz
<jbailey> derek: I'm getting quite good at in-place repleacements...
<jbailey> I can step you through it if you'd like.
<derek> what do you mean by 'in-place'
<jbailey> Meaning the server stayes up while you replace all of the software that's running on it.
<derek> you mean convert from rh to debian virtually on the fly?
<derek> if this is doable someone should be making a tool to do it :)
<jbailey> One of the services I offer to companies is converting from other Linux's to Debian on production machines with the only downtime being basically for a reboot.
<jbailey> It's a little too complicated to do with a tool, since configuration files sometimes have to move, and stuff.
<derek> im just nervous (only reason i havent moved this machine yet)
<derek> but this prospect sounds very interesting
<derek> probably will require about 3 hours to back my data up first
<derek> as i hope to copy a 6 gig drive in entirity to my server 'just in case'
<jbailey> Backups are always good. =)
<derek> yeah i can backup the data so im not so worried about that
<derek> im more worried that i will have troubles getting things to work in debian
<derek> 'in a timely manner'
<derek> generally more than one day down time on my laptop would be torturous
<jbailey> What version of redhat are you running?
<derek> 6.2
<derek> btw: you ever install debian on an alpha box?
<jbailey> There will be some adjustment then.  RH7 was the first FHS compliant version.
<derek> i would love to convert my alpha box to debian
<jbailey> derek: Nope.  Is that what your laptop is?
<derek> it has no data i care about, so it would just be a straight install
<jbailey> What's on it now?
<derek> redhat 5.0
<jbailey> Ouch. =)
<derek> so probably easier to pitch redhat and just start from scratch
<derek> i like NEVER use it
<derek> so im  not worried about downtime on it
<jbailey> Hmmm.
<derek> i want to pick up some more memory and make it a computer for the wifey out in the kitchen
<derek> its one of the little 'dec multia's'
<derek> nice little machine
<jbailey> Well, if you're not planning on doing that install anytime soon, I might like to do the conversion on it just for the experience on an alpha system.
<derek> btw: as much as i complain on it, i actually in some ways like using source :)
<derek> jbailey: would work for me
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<derek> i have to buy a video cable so i can put it on my switch box
<derek> well i dont have to i suppose but it would make life easier
<jbailey> derek: Especially if I screw it up, since I'm more likely to get the bootloader or the network card driver wrong.
<derek> brb: have to go shower 
<derek> you be around in an hour or so?
Action: derek wonders if he should start his back up
<derek> rather than fight getting libcurl installed here
<jbailey> Nope, but email will work.
<jbailey> I'm setting something up for the kids at church today then seeing LoTR again... =)
<derek> well i will start my backup and maybe can catch you some time next week?
<derek> or tomorrow
<derek> apt-getting rsync now
Action: derek hugs apt
<jbailey> Yeah, that'll work.
<jbailey> I'm not working again until Thursday.
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<chillywilly> anyone know how psu's debian install was going?
<psu_away> hi cw
<chillywilly> hey dude
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<psu> I managed to scrounge enuf floppies
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I have base on a zip disk
<psu> just setting up root p/w
<chillywilly> the base tar ball
<chillywilly> so I only need 6 floppies
<psu> this is an old 486/66 w/o CD-ROM
<chillywilly> root, rescue, and driver disk 1-4
<chillywilly> and my zip disk
<chillywilly> both potater and sid ;)
<chillywilly> sid doesn't have pcmcia support for some reason (the sid floppy set)
Action: chillywilly just needs a comfy chair now
<psu> Ok, now for the fun bit
Action: chillywilly has all his computers on or around this nice desk here
<chillywilly> beats using the coffeee table
<psu> I need to install isapnptools first
<psu> to get the modem working
<chillywilly> well shit I gotta see if I can find my nice close so I can attend this wedding ;)
<psu> then I can FTP the rest
<chillywilly> clothes
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> yea, that's sort of a bummer
<chillywilly> but you do have another net connection
<chillywilly> so you can get the deb
<chillywilly> install it by hand
<psu> yep
<chillywilly> I have a nice external US Robotics one
<chillywilly> me looks at the rats nest of wires under his desk
<chillywilly> oops
<chillywilly> forgot the '/'
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<chillywilly> hey dres_
<psu> oh, cool
<psu> my ISP is an official deb mirror
<psu> I always knew they were a cool ISP ;-)
<chillywilly> that is awesome
<chillywilly> I think my ISP also has a mirror, but I do not know where it is
<chillywilly> but a lot of the ppl in our LUG work for them
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> bbl
<chillywilly> brb
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> gonna restart X
<chillywilly> need at least a wired mouse
<chillywilly> until I go get some new batteries
<chillywilly> for my wireless
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<chillywilly> bye
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<chillywilly> http://www.advogato.org/article/398.html
<chillywilly> check that out once reinhard
<chillywilly> looks sorta funky
<chillywilly> http://sourceforge.net/projects/prevayler
<chillywilly> it's java though :(
<chillywilly> yuck
<reinhard> will read when i have time
<chillywilly> "Orders of magnitude FASTER and SIMPLER than a DBMS. Write PLAIN JAVA classes: no pre or post-processing required; runs on any VM; no inheritance from base-class required. Clear documentation and demo included. Ready to use.
<chillywilly> "
<chillywilly> http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=7290&group_id=36113
<nickr> neat
<chillywilly> this is only for the real object heads ;)
<nickr> i wish yython had it
<nickr> pickle just doesn't cut it
<chillywilly> Does prevalence only work in Java?
<chillywilly> No. You can use any language for which you are able to find or build a serialization mechanism. In languages where you can directly access the system's memory and if the business objects are held in a specific memory segment, you can also write that segment out to the snapshot file instead of using serialization.
<nickr> badum bum chee
<chillywilly> write it ;)
<chillywilly> damn no irc channel for the project
<chillywilly> at least not on here
<psu> OK
<psu> I am stuck
<reinhard> ok read it
<chillywilly> it is sorta "different"
<psu> how do I get apt-get to install a .deb off floppy when I don't have a packages list yet?
<chillywilly> you do
<chillywilly> dpkg -i package.deb
<chillywilly> ;)
<nickr> you don't you apt
<psu> fair enuf
<chillywilly> you do it the dirty way by hand ;)
<chillywilly> and resovle dependencies by hand
<reinhard> chillywilly: not sure if it is really something new
<chillywilly> i.e., you beocme apt
<chillywilly> ;P
<reinhard> imho it's nothing more than a readahead object cache
<psu> allegedly, there are no dependancies ;-)
<chillywilly> reinhard: well for bug system you will need a ton o ram
<chillywilly> big
<chillywilly> psu: good
<reinhard> with a readahead rate of 100% or so
<reinhard> i would be curious how long a system with 8 GB of Data would take to start
<chillywilly> you wouldn't have to start it...it would be always running unless youlost power
<nickr> for what ammteurs use most rdbms for nowadays it'd be good though
<chillywilly> then it would take th eprevios state and redo the commands in the commdn log
<chillywilly> thing is your objects need to be deterministic
<chillywilly> it still is sorta goofy in that it would rewuire a crap load of ram
<chillywilly> you notice how he first start it out by saying how cheap memory is?
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> heh
<nickr> I don't want determinstic classes, I want quantum classes
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> it can hop states?
<nickr> well its non-deterministic at least
<nickr> class initialization depends on the phase of the moon
<nickr> quantum state of a decaying radiation source
<nickr> your mom
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> what do you want that for?
<chillywilly> that's like truly random isn't it?
<chillywilly> you can build a true random number generator with quantum computing
<nickr> No, bu replaying the transactions won't reproduce the same result
<chillywilly> how is that a good thing?
<nickr> it fouls up the wonky storage system.
<chillywilly> you just want to have chaos computing don't you?
<chillywilly> self mutating applications
<nickr> that'd be cool
<chillywilly> hehe
<nickr> but my vision of object paradigm is one of objects that are black boxes
<chillywilly> isn't most programming deterministic to begin with?
<nickr> what they do inside is anyone's guess!
<nickr> Heh
<nickr> pretty much, yea
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<psu> l o
<nickr> ol
<psu> ?
<psu> debian install is sort of working
<psu> I have the base system in 
<psu> sweet as a nut
<psu> all off floppies
<psu> but I can't get the modem working
<psu> isapnp gives error msg that imply it is already set up
<psu> but pppconfig & pon can't find it
<psu> As I don;t have any other packages
<psu> I don;t have much in the way of tools for sniffing around
<psu> Anyway, had enuf for today
<psu> Will think about it overnight
<nickr> minicom
<psu> nick - will try it
<psu> & see if that can find the modem
<nickr> internal or external?
<psu> internal, but plug & play 
<psu> hence isapnp
<psu> which I d/l on the other machine & floppied across
<nickr> pnpdump finds no card?
<psu> finds it, but when I edit isapnp.conf
<psu> to a known, safe range
<psu> I get
<psu> IO range check attempted while device activated 
<psu> which man page says
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> wy not use a well-known serial port thing?
<psu> This error is a sign that you are on shakey ground. If the device is already activated, and you are running isapnp for the first time, then some other program has already activated the device (may be the BIOS, or some of the cleverer kernel drivers). You probably shouldn't be attempting to configure the device at all. There could already be drivers accessing the card
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> try enabling pnp OS in bios
<psu> nickr - this PC was a surplus to requirements
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<nickr> psu: no I mean configuring it to a well known port and irq that matches regular serial ports
<psu> will I need to kill off the "real" serial port first to avoid conflicts?
<nickr> Not if you use the address and irq of one you don't have a real one for :)
<nickr> but you should still etable pnp os in bios
<psu> thanks
<psu> bbl
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<chillywilly> whaddup?
<nickr> namuch mofo
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<Mr_You> hi
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<dsmith> Hey You.
<ajmitch> hello
<Mr_You> hope everyone had a good holiday
<dsmith> Whew!  My Daughter's 14th birthday party was today.  Dog was going nuts with all the kids over.
<Mr_You> awww hehe
<Mr_You> my birthday is tommorow ;-)
<dsmith> Happy Birthday!
<Mr_You> danke!
<dsmith> My Son's was the 27th.
<Mr_You> 28 tommorow
<dsmith> Mr_You: Still have your wisdom teeth?
<Mr_You> actually I do
<Mr_You> hopefully sometime reasonably soon I can take care of them.. top ones are exposed, bottom are not
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<ajmitch> hi mdean
<mdean> hi ajmitch
<ajmitch> mdean: i see DCL debian package is up for adoption
<mdean> ja - I haven't seen Ola since about April or so
<ajmitch> that not good
<ajmitch> it's a big one to package, i guess
<mdean> nope - but he is/was a student, so maybe he ran into time constraints or something
<ajmitch> ah right
<ajmitch> i'd give it a try if i was better at packaging :)
<ajmitch> (and if i knew how to use DCL properly ;)
<mdean> it's not too bad - I haven't looked at his scripts tho
<mdean> :)
Action: ajmitch takes a look at it
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<dsmith> mdean: Are you a Debian maintainer?
<mdean> negative
<ajmitch> dsmith: are you?
<dsmith> ajmitch: No.  I wanted to be a while back, but there was the freeze on then.  And someone else grabbed the package too. (graphviz)
<ajmitch> hehe, ok
<ajmitch> i'm in the application process
<ajmitch> that reminds me, i shoudl put in the ITP for pnet :)
<dsmith> I'd like to package gkrellmoon.
<ajmitch> hmm k
<dsmith> ajmitch: Don't you have to be in contact with someone?  To exchange keys or something?
<ajmitch> dsmith: yeah, there are 3 other DD's in the city where i live
<ajmitch> not bad considering there are only 5 in NZ :)
<ajmitch> so i've got my key signed & have an advocate
<dsmith> ajmitch: Closest one to me is in Michigan (I'm in Cleveland, OH)
<ajmitch> ah right
<dsmith> It's about a 3-4 hour drive
<ajmitch> yeah, it's useful having a debian-biased LUG, i have a couple of friends who are DDs
<ajmitch> ouch, it was about a 5min walk to my friend's place
<dsmith> But then again, I might be on a gig in michigan in a few weeks. Time to look in to it again.
Action: dsmith imagines the fame an prestiege of being a Debian Maintainer. ;^)
<dsmith> Might look good on the resume.
<ajmitch> hehe
Action: ajmitch waits for the server to dump the mysql db out to a file
<ajmitch> fsck it, 39MB :)
Action: ajmitch does a bzip2 on it
<ajmitch> i wish the server had the other cpu in it...
<ajmitch> cool, down to 5mb
<ajmitch> bye all, gotta go offline :)
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