Success. You can now start the database server using: /usr/bin/postmaster -D /var/lib/pgsql/data or /usr/bin/pg_ctl -D /var/lib/pgsql/data -l logfile start --- Thu Jan 10 2002 ok now dow /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql restart and tell me what happens I presume after exit yes good catch :) [root@localhost init.d]# /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql restart [root@localhost init.d]# not big on messages, is it? now try 'pgsql' not as root nickr: yeah worries me its not saying shutting down, starting up su postgres -c "pgsql" jamest: i just want to see if it tries to connect sigh this is bad thing about support on irc you get 45 opinions Heh. [root@localhost init.d]# pgsql bash: pgsql: command not found er psql Action: derek slaps self I notices [root@localhost init.d]# psql psql: connectDBStart() -- connect() failed: No such file or directory Is the postmaster running locally and accepting connections on Unix socket '/tmp/.s.PGSQL.5432'? [root@localhost init.d]# maybe it should be chekced if the postmaster is starting up nickr: its not what is postmaster well, I'd say thats probable, but maybe its just not listening on the socket time to investigate what postgresql script isnt working as it should say SOMETHING maybe theres an # remove this line \n exit 0 type this kreiszner /usr/bin/postmaster -D /var/lib/pgsql/data we will just bypass the script for now actually if you havent done that dont instead do says I can't do this as root ps -ax |grep post and paste what you get [root@localhost init.d]# ps -ax |grep post 3413 pts/2 S 0:00 grep post ok so postmaster is NOT running try yes, good to know. /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql start paste output [root@localhost init.d]# /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql start Starting postgresql service: YPBINDPROC_DOMAIN: Domain not bound [ OK ] [root@localhost init.d]# yippie now do ps -ax |grep post and paste [root@localhost init.d]# ps -ax |grep post 3500 pts/2 S 0:00 /usr/bin/postmaster -D /var/lib/pgsql/data 3515 pts/2 S 0:00 grep post yippie tripple yippie ok now su - postgres does this stuff tell you what processes are running and what exactly what is a process then do a 'createuser' make one called something like pgadmin and choose y can create databases and choose y can add users let me know how it goes ps is a tool to get 'process status' jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-202020.flinthills.com) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) ps gives a snapshot of the current processes. If you want a repetitive update of this status, use top. This man page documents the /proc-based version of ps, or tries to. kreiszner: as a side note: if yo do ps -aux you can see all processes on your machine ;) a ps -ax all tty except session leaders and w/out controlling ttys kreiszner: the first column is the process id, second is the tty (virtual terminal) its associated with, third is the 'state' .. most processes will appear to be in S, which means they are sleeping at the time that ps ran, then comes a time field (I think its real run time), and then the command then pipes it to grep (which is a searching tool) to find the word so if you wanted to see if say netscape was running you could do ps -ax |grep netscape MicahY ([vl6acD5yD@12-225-21-221.client.attbi.com) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) derek: have created a y y permisssions accout it didn't ask for password ? most odd ok type exit then do we out psql -U pgadmin template1 and tell me what happens i assume that pgadmin is the username you used in the last step? I use admin give me Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help on internal slash commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit template1=# yeah Action: derek does the happy dance.... you have a 'working' postgres now type create database gnue and let me know what happens Anyone here use sylpheed? (I ask here because people are exceptionally helpful and friendly!) I can see now why I was never able to get a database up and running in the past dsmith: no, but i have been meaning to try it I used it once or twice. jbailey or nickr used it until recently (iirc) and had good things to say about it well, maybe for a few months until evolution started working well. template1=# create database gnue template1-# kreiszner: we have found postgres to be finicky on debian too kreiszner: type ';' then hit enter I imported a nscape mbox file earlier today, now it won't do it anymore. :( and let me know what is says Action: derek forgot you have to end statements with a ; dsmith: well its like shareware, the first import is free.... ;?) template1-# ; CREATE DATABASE template1=# alexey (alex@techkran.vladimir.ru) left irc: Remote closed the connection derek: heh kreiszner: you now have postgres w/ a gnue database :) alexey (alex@ns.techkran.vladimir.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. kreiszner: what directory did you install gnue in? the samples i.e. where is intro.gfd jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-202020.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. wow wow? that was odd guess jamest is easy to impress tonight, simply logging in gives him thrills yeah system went down hard wouldn't boot back up then started working again LotR was good jamest: maybe it doesnt like you? oh well i need to go to sleep Action: derek thinks jamest is trying to make a case for that new 'athlon' to compete against jcater ;) just wanted to make sure that postgresql install was working jamest looks like its working hopefully will have working 2 tier sample in a few minutes w/ luck [Ken4@localhost intro]$ pwd /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/intro cool kreiszner: you still have that psql window open? if so do \connect gnue tell me what it says derek: yes [root@localhost init.d]# psql -U admin template1 Welcome to psql, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal. Type: \copyright for distribution terms \h for help with SQL commands \? for help on internal slash commands \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query \q to quit template1=# create database gnue template1-# ; CREATE DATABASE template1=# do a \connect gnue then do \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/load.sql let me know what happens i.e. \connect gnue then hit enter then do the \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/load.sql basically you are currently connected to the template1 database (the postgres default) the \connect gnue connects you to the database you just created called gnue template1=# \connect gnue You are now connected to database gnue. the \i /home/...... is an import of a file from the sample then a whole bunch of create it should create 7 or 8 tables in the database and load them with some information cool and psql:/home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/load.sql:14: ERROR: Relation 'address' does not exist do a select * from address_type; and tell me what you get endin with gnue=# ah snap my bad do \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/create_all.sql gnue=# select * from address_type; ERROR: Relation 'address_type' does not exist then do \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/load.sql then do select * from address_type; Action: derek thought the load.sql created the tables and populated them, but in reality it just loaded them the create_all creates them :) a whole lot of gnue=# \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/create_all.sql psql:/home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/create_all.sql:1: create_address.sql: No such file or directory ok type \q then cd /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/ then when in that dir do psql -U pgadmin gnue which should bring you back to a gnue# then do \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/create_all.sql then \i /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/sql/load.sql derek: has tracking been tested recently? jamest: it was tested w/ 0.1.0 which is what he is running ah cool kreiszner: still there, or did all those commands seem like gibberish? derek: gave me some error create stuff do you remember what? i assume it should have errored on creating the sequences jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-202020.flinthills.com) left irc: "[x]chat" psql:create_address.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_address_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_address_type.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_address_type_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_assignment_status.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_assignment_status_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_email.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_email_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_email_type.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_email_type_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_person.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_person_id' already exists psql:create_person.sql:11: NOTICE: CREATE TABLE/UNIQUE will create implicit index 'person_irc_handle_key' for table 'person' CREATE psql:create_phone.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_phone_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_phone_type.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_phone_type_id' already exists CREATE psql:create_todo.sql:1: ERROR: Relation 'seq_todo_id' already exists CREATE [00:46] Last message repeated 1 time(s). yep sequences, which are fine and expected, do a select * from address_type; and paste what is there gnue=# select * from address_type; id | description ----+------------- 1 | Unknown 2 | Work 3 | Home (3 rows) yeah ok now do a \q then do a 'ls /usr/local/gnue/etc/' and paste here the \q should get you out of psql and back to a normal prompt [root@localhost sql]# ls /usr/local/gnue/etc connections.com gnue.com sample.connections.conf sample.gnue.conf connections.conf gnue.conf sample.connections.conf~ ok now 'less /usr/local/gnue/etc/connections.conf' the com files were created by mistake earlier can i rm them yes you can rm /usr/local/gnue/etc/*.com less is an editor more a viewer than an editor its like 'more' with more features my favorite joke is 'unix is the only time where 'less is more'' night dudes dude whats up eh? you and jcater both in bed before like 3am.... are you guys ill? I am friggin tired no :) must be getting old just tired ;P hehe or something Action: chillywilly is only 24 [devel] comment = GNUe Sample Connection for MySQL based developer database provider = mysql host = gnue dbname = developer [prod] comment = PostgreSQL Sample Connection to a production database provider = pypgsql host = gnue dbname = production nighty night masta [gnue] comment = Connection to a database dedicated to gnue provider = pypgsql chillywilly (danielb@d50.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: host = gnue night chillywilly dbname = gnue ok cool did jamest or jcater have you get a postgres driver for python tonight? i assume not, so go tohttp://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=16528 download this file pypgsql-2.0.tar.gz once you have it downloaded go do directory downloaded it in and do tar xzvf pypgsql-2.0.tar.gz then cd pypgsql and let me know when you are there :) I there ok type 'locate libpq-fe.h' and tell me what you get sigh... Action: derek is gonna hurt jcater and jamest they always brag about this package i never used it, figured i would do same time as you but i had to hand edit some files and it still wont work on my machine [root@localhost pypgsql]# locate libpq-fe.h /usr/include/pgsql/libpq-fe.h ok what text editor do you use? jed ok use jed and edit setup.py in that directory around line 80 change include_dirs = [ "/usr/local/pgsql/include" ] #include_dirs = [ "/usr/local/include/pgsql" ] # Common alternative #include_dirs = [ "/usr/include/pgsql" ] # Common alternative library_dirs = [ "/usr/local/pgsql/lib" ] # Common alternative # library_dirs = [ "/usr/local/lib/pgsql" ] # Common alternative #library_dirs = [ "/usr/lib/pgsql" ] to #include_dirs = [ "/usr/local/pgsql/include" ] #include_dirs = [ "/usr/local/include/pgsql" ] # Common alternative include_dirs = [ "/usr/include/pgsql" ] # Common alternative #library_dirs = [ "/usr/local/pgsql/lib" ] # Common alternative # library_dirs = [ "/usr/local/lib/pgsql" ] # Common alternative library_dirs = [ "/usr/lib/pgsql" ] basically add a # to the include dirs that doesnt have it and to the libraries that doesnt have it then remove the # from the /usr/include/pgsql and /usr/lib/pgsql lines and paste it here then save and exit editor actually it might ahve worked for me any luck? #include_dirs = [ "/usr/local/pgsql/include" ] # include_dirs = [ "/usr/local/include/pgsql" ] # Common alternative include_dirs = [ "/usr/include/pgsql" ] # Common alternative #library_dirs = [ "/usr/local/pgsql/lib" ] # Common alternative # library_dirs = [ "/usr/local/lib/pgsql" ] # Common alternative library_dirs = [ "/usr/lib/pgsql" ] cool save and exit jed done then do a 'python2.1 setup.py build' then as root (if you are not already root) do 'python2.1 setup.py install' let me know how it comes out after each just paste last few lines copying build/lib.linux-i586-2.1/pyPgSQL/libpq/libpqmodule.so -> /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/pyPgSQL/libpq byte-compiling /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/pyPgSQL/__init__.py to __init__.pyc byte-compiling /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/pyPgSQL/PgSQL.py to PgSQL.pyc byte-compiling /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/pyPgSQL/libpq/__init__.py to __init__.pyc [root@localhost pypgsql]# sweet now do 'python2.1' which should give you a >>>> there type (case sensitive) w () import pyPgSQL and tell me what you get w ()? >>> import pyPgSQL >>> wicked ok do a 'ctrl-d' to get out you now have a python postgres driver use jed and edit /usr/local/gnue/etc/connections.conf AND THAT MEans kreiszner: it means you now have a way for python applications to talk to postgres database k in the connections.conf file paste here everything after [gnue] line [gnue] comment = Connection to a database dedicated to gnue provider = pypgsql host = gnue dbname = gnue ok change host = gnue to host = localhost and save file and exit and you should be all configured :) what did that do I mean the host = localhost its the configuration for gnue to tell it about how to deal with data it created an 'alias' called gnue the [gnue] for that alias the provider is pypgsql (the driver i just had you download and install) the host is localhost (the name of your machine i.e. root@localhost) this could be an IP address or a machine name or an internet address k and the database name is the name of the postgres db to use (we just created the gnue database with the CREATE database gnue;) go do your samples dir for gnue there cd /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/forms/ then do an ls and paste here [root@localhost forms]# ls address_type.gfd assignment_status.gfd contact_manager.gfd email_type.gfd phone_type.gfd address_type.gfd~ assignment_status.gfd~ contact_manager.gfd~ email_type.gfd~ phone_type.gfd~ [root@localhost forms]# ok gfclient address_type.gfd it should ask you for a login the user would be pgadmin you said it didnt ask you for a password, so password would be blank any luck? [root@localhost forms]# gfclient address_type.gfd GNUe Forms Version 0.1.0 Error: No database driver found for provider type 'pypgsql' For help, type: gfclient --help [root@localhost forms]# gfclient address_type.gfd GNUe Forms Version 0.1.0 Error: No database driver found for provider type 'pypgsql' For help, type: gfclient --help hmmmm you did a the python2.1 and the import pyPgSQL and it worked though.... wonder if gfclient is pointing somewhere to old python? but i thought jcater/jamest walked you through fixing that I think so but you realize I am really blind here do 'locate gfclient' and give me the output [root@localhost forms]# locate gfclient /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/client/gfclient.in huh? thats it yes try less /usr/bin/gfclient [root@localhost forms]# less /usr/bin/gfclient /usr/bin/gfclient: No such file or directory how the hell is gfclient working for you I newbie remember it has to exist somewhere :) you pasted [root@localhost forms]# gfclient address_type.gfd GNUe Forms Version 0.1.0 Error: No database driver found for provider type 'pypgsql' For help, type: gfclient --help which tells me you got gfclient to work on your machine im just wondering where the heck it put itself type 'which gfclient' and give me output [root@localhost forms]# which gfclient /usr/local/bin/gfclient ok do less /usr/local/bin/gfclient and paste the first three lines here ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) joined #gnuenterprise. hello all ello ra3vat #!/usr/bin/env python2 # # Copyright 2001 Free Software Foundation # # This file is part of GNU Enterprise. hmmm seems to be pointing to python2 hello derek ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) left irc: Client Quit ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) joined #gnuenterprise. kreiszner: type 'python2.1' again them when you get the >>> type import pyPgSQL and paste from the line where you launched python2.1 to end [root@localhost forms]# python2.1 Python 2.1.1 (#1, Aug 13 2001, 19:37:40) [GCC 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.1 2.96-96)] on linux2 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> pyPgSQL Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? NameError: name 'pyPgSQL' is not defined >>> sigh i swear we had this working? w ()? >>> import pyPgSQL >>> wicked hmmmm type ctrl-d to get out then just type python then at that >>> type import pyPgSQL and tell me what you get I already did it w/o getting out >>> import pyPgSQL >>> huh? w/o getting out in what python version is the import pyPgSQL working? without ctr d and python can you paste all of the window? Python 2.1.1 (#1, Aug 13 2001, 19:37:40) [GCC 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.1 2.96-96)] on linux2 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> pyPgSQL Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in ? NameError: name 'pyPgSQL' is not defined >>> import pyPgSQL >>> the above came after python2.1 ok so it thinks its installed what the hell isnt gfclient liking try this get out of python then type /usr/bin/python2.1 and tell me what you get [root@localhost forms]# /usr/bin/python2.1 Python 2.1.1 (#1, Aug 13 2001, 19:37:40) [GCC 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.1 2.96-96)] on linux2 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> ok get out of that in jed edit /usr/local/bin/gfclient change #!/usr/bin/env python2 to #!/usr/bin/python2.1 and save the file exit and type gfclient --help GNUe Forms Version 0.1.0 Usage: gfclient [options] file GNUe Forms is the primary user interface to the GNU Enterprise system. Available command line options: cool now go back to that samples dir that has the address_type.gfd if you arent already there and do gfclient address_type.gfd and tell me what you get [root@localhost samples]# gfclient address_type.gfd DB000: Traceback (most recent call last): DB000: File "/usr/local/bin/gfclient", line 42, in ? DB000: GFClient().run() DB000: File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/GFClient.py", line 118, in run DB etc DB000: IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'address_type.gfd cd track/forms/ then gfclient address_type.gfd reinhard (~rm@N808P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. [root@localhost forms]# gfclient address_type.gfd GNUe Forms Version 0.1.0 Error: No database driver found for provider type 'pypgsql' For help, type: gfclient --help argh... Action: derek knew he shouldnt have tried to have you use pypgsql i use pyscopg, but their website was down you want I should take a baseball bat to the computer sure :) ok change of plans go here http://www.zope.org/Members/fog/psycopg download psycopg-1.0.tar.gz then tar xzvf psycopg-1.0.tar.gz when you have it downloaded then cd pyscopg-1.0 reinhard (rm@N808P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" sigh nevermind its build sucks for redhat will you be around tomorrow? i have to get some sleep? reinhard (~rm@62.47.44.225) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: derek is away: zzzz derek: yes fine with me kreiszner (Ken4@ppp005.alx.la.xspedius.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@62.47.44.225) got netsplit. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) got netsplit. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) got netsplit. gnuebot (eggdrop@mail.libertydistribution.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~rm@62.47.44.225) returned to #gnuenterprise. Mr_You (rouzer@mankind.boredom.org) returned to #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o gnuebot' by carter.openprojects.net Action: alexey is away: I'm busy dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dres (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Remote closed the connection dres (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: alexey is back ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-1-ip15.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. sigh "the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" :) since 1999 european banks have a new standard for wire transfers that is you can send them a file in a certain format containing the amounts and the recipients and they do the transfer automatically and cheaper than check printing etc however they _call_ it a standard i was fighting about a year to get a file format done that works with all banks and it worked and now some banks start to tell me "our new version of server software doesn't accept this now, you gotta change something" lol figures if it's anything like the DBI API standard in python then the std does exist just to scare you a bit the standard is based on EDIFACT(R) however the interpretation of the std by the person implementing it varies same here and EDIFACT uses to leave quite a lot of space for interpretation... :) Action: jamest doesn't know enough about it to be scared yet btw - I'm dead in the water w/ geas as I can't get my orbit-python to stop segfaulting i need someone that can run geas and forms and check to see if they have same issues w/ current driver jamest: nevermind this gives me time to catch up with geas coding :) ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-1-ip15.albany.thebiz.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). ok alexey (alex@ns.techkran.vladimir.ru) left irc: "[x]chat" ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-1-ip15.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) left irc: "Client Exiting" ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest: read the logs from yesternight all went well with ken until the dbdriver :( i use pyscopg on debian and my redhat i had to fight pygresql down to get it to work (mx crap) WELL i had him download pypgsql which seemed painless had him hand edit setup.py and install all painless do import pyPgSQL and it works BUT forms doesnt :( it says it cant find a driver for pypgsql i was really tired so i might have been over looking the obvious but as i did this i installed pypgsql on my side and ran it and it worked here on redhat 6.2 so i will let the driver masters figure it out :) hopefully he will be returning tonight and either you or jcater can be here must go bye bye derek (derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "um my gnue tree is bigger than your gnue tree" alexey_ (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. "um my gnue tree is bigger than your gnue tree" he hasn't seen my tree Nick change: alexey_ -> alexey jamest: size doesn't matter i thought? I keep telling myself that anyway sigh forms is evil chillywilly (~danielb@d154.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~dsmith@d281.as2.clev.oh.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. if jcater pops in and i don't jump him immediately could someone tell him to msg me one of us is on some goooooood crack and should share i just don't know who yet :) jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. sprong! don't move! well, you can move your fingers to type damn, i'm too slow lol reinhard (rm@62.47.44.225) left irc: "Anything is good and useful if it's made of chocolate" chillywilly (danielb@d154.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) chillywilly (~danielb@d188.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting" jbailey (~jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. Hmmm. This is suboptimal... nice to meet you This is optimalprime hehe This is dazedandconfused And we are the GnueBots. Coders in disguise! or is that Coders you'll despise! jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting" jbailey (~jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. 'the sleeping beauties have awoke' Action: dneighbo is still in shock that both jcater and chillywilly made it bed before him jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting" whoo hoo three more assignments in today that means lets see, that in one day put more assignments in than all of gnome ;) Action: dneighbo shouldnt think thats funny, but i do http://www.ltsp.org/press_releases/ltsp-3.0.txt that's a good press release Action: jcater is away: food nothing can stop the blob, NOTHING jcater not bad Action: dneighbo needs to see if ltsp will run on alpha processor I was not talking about the product but the wording/style of the press release although the product rocks my socks yes the press release was pretty standard liked the 'compelling' arguments to move from windows :) sigh nevermind jbailey (~jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" phil_c (~username@du-037-0094.access.clara.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ? Action: dneighbo wants to understand i do think its a good press release but i think it follows pretty much the standard press release format i do think they did an exceptional job in the details though Whate are you talking about now? my butt oh sorry, i thought you said what are you talkcing out of now ;) alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. your butt follows the standard press release format? dsmith (dsmith@d281.as2.clev.oh.voyager.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection jcater you here? if so i could use some gnue-common help as we could have a big item here if we can get it to work :) here Action: jcater is back (gone 01:11:28) oops guess I went over an hour for lunch ;) ok im trying to get db2 to work natively on windows w/o odbc driver w/ gnue i went and downloaded the file from the .py file (some korean url) luckily it has a precompiled .pyd :) so im not screwed i was wondering where to put that but i looked at it looks like designer/forms installed a _pg.pyd and a _mysql.pyd so first question is they seem to be in odd spots and it installed them twice (which seems like overkill) and waste of diskspace but beyond that i copied the _db.pyd into same directories guess i just configure the connections.conf and try it out? any hints on the connections.conf for a db2 entry and is there a way i can test (this is pyhthon questions) w/o having to use forms? i.e. can i put the .pyd file somewhere so i can open up python and do an import foo and play? ..... um c:\program files\gnue\extras iirc lemme verify that though I know I added that capability, so ppl could use our prebuild .exes but still add to it holsch (~schurig@p5080A78F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo: rm -rf / oh crap this is windows i put in c:\program files\gnue\designer c:\program files\gnue\forms use fdisk and delete the primary partition that'll solve it for you which is where the _odbc.pyd, _pg.pyd and _mysql.pyd were but i wanted to try just normal old python no gnue first dneighbo: i don't think that'll work with the prebuilts so put in c:\python20\dll\ and tried importing w/o luck so import sys print sys.path as the exe's create an image of a python install and it shows c:\python20\dll\ thus you don't need python installed jamest hmmm i had python installed before on this machine (me thinks) you don't need it jamest not true :) well for our exe's you dont :) btw - did you lose jcater support? or did i just jump in i use python outside of gnue :) so you are correct no need for python for gnue one machine has python and one machine does not anyhoo, this could be a MAJOR thing if we can get to work here like county to use gnue officially perhaps for some things as right now it cost 250 a seat for an 'odbc' driver for db2 not from ibm (but some 3rd party) so if we can do some screen maintenance via gnue w/o that charge its a HUGE + alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" i.e. right now if there isnt a 'mainframe' screen for something they say cant add table for it cause cant do data entry i'm looking in the code for the import trick then they got smart and used access to do data entry on the mainframe for tables w/o mainframe screens as I honestly don't recall where jcater stuck it but because odbc is so costly and pain to setup, they dont like doing it for users anyhow, it will be interesting as have like 3 or 4 current things that it woudl be INFINITELY useful for jamest: under windows, the correct command is deltree c:\ jcater: better add the /y on there to smooth things out a bit true f os.path.isdir(os.path.join(_BASE,'extras')):^M sys.path.append(os.path.join(_BASE,'extras'))^M #######^M err, if os.path.isdir(os.path.join(_BASE,'extras')):^M sys.path.append(os.path.join(_BASE,'extras'))^M so, it's c:\program files \gnue\extras btw, I wouldn't recommend "developing" gnue code with the win32 prebuilt executables as they are designed to be usable as is,so file locations may not make sense to a python developer ? so will db2 be a no go? or should i dump the .pyd into the c:\program files \extras? put it in the gnue\extras dir and I think it'll work um there is no gnue\extras dir btw: im using 0.1.0 here nope i added an extras dir it's not "standard" and put it in there it's "extras" :) Action: dneighbo is wondering best way to test you have a sample defintion for db2 for connections.conf check out README.databases [myconn] provider=db2 # Use the DB/2 adapter service=mydsn # The DSN connection string of the database from README.databases and from GNUe Forms Users Guide RTFM! :) dneighbo_ (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. 30 # Supported attributes (via connections.conf or tag) 31 # 32 # service= This is the DB2 DSN for your connection (required) 33 # 34 Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. re jcater i dont get what service is do I look like a DB2 guru? all I know is it's a DSN connection string that DB2 uses ftp://people.linuxkorea.co.kr/pub/DB2/] is the location of the driver he may have docs btw, if this driver is freely redistributable, we could probably include it in future GNUe-Forms.exe packages ok i have the DSN connection i guess im asking do i need [db2test] comment = DB2 Test provider = db2 host = ipaddress service = mydsnname dbname = isthisstillnecessary usually, its host and dbname OR service not both good as that was i was hoping so drivers that use "service" don't use host of dbname of=or as i have a dsn name, but its reall the database so to speak :) i just have to figure out the ip address and im set oracle is the same way I only have a TNS connection string no host or dbname hmmm i will try that first how can you not have a host? how does it know where to look? we have a tnsnames.ora file and the TNS id string is in that file is the provider 'db2' or something else? sigh from the manual IBM DB/2 ======== ** DB2-Python [ftp://people.linuxkorea.co.kr/pub/DB2/] POSIX Support: YES Win32 Support: YES [prebuilt binaries] Platforms Tested: ??? (We need your help!) Description: A DB/2 driver from Bryan Lee. Works with IBM's DB/2 version 7.1. Example connections.conf entry: [myconn] provider=db2 # Use the DB/2 adapter service=mydsn # The DSN connection string of the database Notes: 1. The Win32 binaries are included in the tar'ed file (in win32/) 2. This driver has not been fully tested. If you are successfully using this driver, please let us know. that summarizes every trinket of information I have about the DB2 driver ;) ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) left irc: "Client Exiting" rofl btw, if we had a "testing/development" version of DB2, I'd be happy to test stuff for you ;) jcater: how do you get debug to work for designer in windows? if i do gfdesigner.exe it launches designer then gives control back as if i did gfdesigner.exe& change the link oooo im runing it from command line wait that is right we dropped console output in the win32 bins can a do a gfdesigner.exe --debug or something run from cvs :) i tried gfdesinger.exe --help waitaminute and got nada i think there is a debug version on the website i could install isn't there a win32 and win32debug available on the site install the debug can in install 'over' what is there or should i uninstall first? then change the icon to add normal -d option you can install over but I'd uninstall anyway shouldn't effect anything else ok im trying to run the wizard and it just 'hangs' have debug turned to 10 here is output DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GConfig:112] Configuration File: "C:\PROGRAM FIL ES\GNUE/etc/gnue.conf" DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GConfig:78] Reading user configuration overrides DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GConfig:87] Reading fixed system configuration DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GConfig:112] Configuration File: "C:\PROGRAM FIL ES\GNUE/etc/gnue.conf.fixed" DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GConfig:94] File not available DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GBaseApp:169] Connection Definition: "C:\PROGRAM FILES\GNUE\etc\connections.conf" DB001: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\common\GConnections:68] Conn File: "C:\PROGRAM FILES\GN UE\etc\connections.conf" DB007: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\UIwxpython:54] WxApp initializing DB007: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\UIwxpython:56] WxApp initializing2 DB007: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\UIwxpython:67] WxApp initializing3 DB002: [C:\PYTHON21\gnue\designer\TemplateChooser:97] Packages=[] hmmmm its like its not finding any templates hmmm does it even when i have db2 commented otu of my conf file ouch my other machine does same thing that i havent touched today i think perhaps 'wizards' were broken ? can someone else verify? i can not however i don't think we had any way to do introspection on db2 because none of us had it so the drivers may not work w/ the wizards anyway jamest: very true but NO wizard is working :) :) confirmed the db2 drivers don't have introspection dneighbo_: if you can point me to some docs on how to get a list of tables in DB2, I can add introspection support dneighbo_ just ship him a nice set of docs, media, and a extra AS400 to run it on and I bet you'd have good db support heck ship it to me and I'd gladly fix the drivers for it too :) btw, odbc does not support introspection either jcater: im wililng to do the code need basics working brb switching machines dneighbo_ (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "[BX] *SUBLIMINAL*MESSAGE* USE BITCHX *SUBLIMINAL*MESSAGE*" dneighbo_ (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ok running a form i get this Microsoft(R) Windows 98 (C)Copyright Microsoft Corp 1981-1999. C:\Program Files\gnue\Samples\forms>..\..\forms\gfclient.exe address_type.gfd GNUe Forms Version 0.1.0 Error: No database driver found for provider type 'db2' For help, type: gfclient --help C:\Program Files\gnue\Samples\forms> here is the .pyd C:\Program Files\gnue\Samples\forms>dir ..\..\extras\ Volume in drive C has no label Volume Serial Number is 07D0-0B1D Directory of C:\Program Files\gnue\extras . 01-10-02 12:49p . .. 01-10-02 12:49p .. _DB2 PYD 18,944 06-01-01 4:00a _DB2.PYD 1 file(s) 18,944 bytes 2 dir(s) 4,734.51 MB free C:\Program Files\gnue\Samples\forms> Action: Yurik is back from tennis hmm have to run to meeting be back in hour, might try this on linux where have less 'variables' I bet mcmillan didn't grab the dbdriver/db2/ dir since it couldn't import the necessary drivers how can i verify that? bbs Action: jbailey is away: phone. davi (~davi@80-25-136-215.uc.nombres.ttd.es) joined #gnuenterprise. davi (~davi@80-25-136-215.uc.nombres.ttd.es) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). sigh today sucks Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) jcater any suggestions on how to get it to work? the day?.....try drinking no kidding ToyMan_ (~stuq@c5300-4-ip217.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. can you test on a linux machine btw, I almost have DB2 introspection coded but I can't test jcater: i can try to test on a linux machine, having bad day and so irrate after last meeting dont know how effective i will be Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:49:58) initial support for DB2 introspection has been committed to CVS of course, I don't have DB2 so chances are this will need some tweaking next up, SAP-DB ;) poor jcater you actually think the db system still works bwahahahaha ah, ok so if the introspection doesn't work it's an issue with the underlying dbdrivers not my schema code ;) ToyMan (stuq@c5300-1-ip15.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) jcater : i cant get sapdb to work i have it installed and all and i run the create script and it tells me the db is already created (so at one point it must have worked) but i cant get the tools to work to verify it :) dneighbo_ (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "BitchX-1.0c18 -- just do it." ok linux db2... this should be fun gcc -fPIC -g -O2 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -I/usr/include/python2.1 -I/usr/include/python2.1 -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I/usr/IBMdb2/V7.1/include -c ././_db2_module.c -o ./_db2_module.o ././_db2_module.c:76: sqlcli1.h: No such file or directory ././_db2_module.c:77: sqlenv.h: No such file or directory make: *** [_db2_module.o] Error 1 dneighbo@wright:~/downloads/DB2-Python-0.99$ cant test on linux as i dont have the db2 libraries which means this probably wont work on windows either without something (which means it doesnt solve my problem) well actually it might if it compiled those in Action: dneighbo wishes he could apt get the goods reinhard (~rm@N808P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater : here is your free copy dneighbo: http://www14.software.ibm.com/webapp/download/search.jsp?go=y&rs=db2pde sigh i just want the friggin client libs btw: im probably doing all in vain as i think we run 6.5 or even 5.5 and this stuff appears geared at 7.x rofl, this is what i can an 'upgrade' [arrow] Migrating a Microsoft Access 2000 Database to IBM DB2 Universal Database 7.2 reinhard (rm@N808P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "There's always one more imbecile than you expect" at least its a step in the rigcht direction ToyMan_ (stuq@c5300-4-ip217.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: "I"m off to make more toys" jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319025.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting" jcater or jamest in python is there a way to get a listing of all available modules? all available? or all loaded um i put _db2.pyd in same places as _pg.pyd for my python2.0 on windows if i launch python and do import pg works fine but if i do import DB2 it fails but doesnt give much info ImportError: No module named DB2 Action: dneighbo wants to kick it :) where'd you put _db2.pyd? c:\python20\ and c:\python20\dlls\ there should be something with _db2 like a DB2.py of course, I may be whacked its _db2.pyd there is a DB2.py also where does it go? their windows instructions suck ok much better copied DB2.py over there and now i get ImportError: DLL load failed: One of the library files needed to run this application can not be found assuming that the _db2.pyd tried to load and couldnt find any db2client libraries so crapped itself which sucks....but what i suspected probably as i cant find them on windows for free prop software licks my nuts dneighbo: oracle does the same thing to you at least it used to via OraNet still does jamest: its sad as there seems to be good docs on the CLI interfaces and such just you ahve to pay for it so the db2server license fee is per processor which i thought pretty cool now they just ding you for seat licenses by making you have CLI libs although on linux i can get them for free wonder if they make a win98 version of udb? as i suppose i coudl try to install that and it would install the libs I think they do but i want to distribute this so really need the libs as separate.... Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. wassup my niggas kanichiwa Action: Mr_You sings the song "I think I'm turning japanese, I really think so" or is it konichiwa momma the download is like 5 200mb files dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: No route to host Action: Yurik is back hmm Action: Yurik will be back again in 15 minutes Yurik_ (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Action: Yurik_ is back Nick change: Yurik_ -> Yurik Action: Yurik is going to call taxi to go home... or not to go home and leave at office... dunno Action: Yurik called for taxi.. holsch (schurig@p5080A78F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Remote closed the connection l8r jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise. migus (~migus@caribou.techmag.info) joined #gnuenterprise. hi hi howdy Action: Yurik is going to leave office bye Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: "BitchX: more nutritious than a six-pack." jamest (~jamest@fh-dialup-202020.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hi migus new face, any questions? no hi for me? no dneighbo :) Action: jamest is feeling rejected damn he came back er hi jamest no problem :) I was looking if there was some french insomiac there :) gasp! it's jamest got that new gfdes done yet? i need something to break lol I'm still at work getting ready to traverse home one corner at a time chillywilly_ (~danielb@d147.as10.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d188.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Killed (NickServ (Ghost: chillywilly_!~danielb@d147.as10.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)) Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly dres (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. migus (migus@caribou.techmag.info) left irc: "BitchX: the fresh-maker!" dneighbo (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "[BX] Man and mouse alike, both end up in pussy" mdeanlt (~Mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-202020.flinthills.com) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) neilt (~neilt@dhcp64-134-54-175.chan.dca.wayport.net) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. dsmith (~dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dudes Norwegians Indict Teen Who Published Code Liberating DVDs U.S. Entertainment Industry Pressured Norwegian Prosecutors Oslo, Norway - Acting years after pressure from the U.S. entertainment industry, the Norwegian government yesterday indicted teenager Jon Johansen for his role in creating software that permits DVD owners to view DVDs on players that are not approved by the entertainment industry. uh, what the fuck from the EFF is that decss fallout? yes so ppl sheesh! what are we going to do about it? ;) fly to oslo en masse wearing decss tshirts ooooh, tshirts with the source of decss printed on them... why is something like Johnny Mnemonic looking more and more likely? ;-) how about giving money to the EFF fil_c (~username@du-037-0201.access.clara.net) joined #gnuenterprise. man how nad does it have to get nefore ppl wake up and realize that this country is not of the ppl and by the ppl anymore? bad before Action: chillywilly is away: dinner phil_c (username@du-037-0094.access.clara.net) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" fitzix (~fitzix@103.136.252.64.snet.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hello Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:21:09) mdeanlt (Mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" uh oh sup fitzix dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) joined #gnuenterprise. neilt (neilt@dhcp64-134-54-175.chan.dca.wayport.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) jcater (~jason@24.92.70.201) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d147.as10.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: chillywilly (~danielb@d147.as10.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. lambert (~lambert@162.39.21.100) joined #gnuenterprise. fitzix (fitzix@103.136.252.64.snet.net) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) phil_c (~username@du-039-0074.access.clara.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Connection reset by peer dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) got netsplit. dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) returned to #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~dsmith@oh-strongsville5a-64.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. fil_c (username@du-037-0201.access.clara.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) Isomer (dahoose@210-86-57-156.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) left irc: "Client Exiting" dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) got netsplit. dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) returned to #gnuenterprise. dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) got netsplit. dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) returned to #gnuenterprise. fil_c (~username@du-039-0074.access.clara.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d147.as10.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) chillywilly (~danielb@d9.as20.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. lambert (~lambert@162.39.21.100) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). fitzix (~fitzix@103.136.252.64.snet.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hello sup g S11001001 (~sirian@63.64.10.45) joined #gnuenterprise. OT: anyone on DotGNU's side? ;) Anyone here? :) fitzix: don't think so I'm here I suppose jcater: hey there jcater, how are you? swell and you? not bad at all jcater: we're going to be using GEAS to some degree in DotGNU - and possibly other parts of GNUe coolness so you are with dotGNU? yes he is ;) flee! how will GEAS tie into DotGNU? jcater: I'm a member of the Stearing Committee nickr: hehe - I'm not that scary jcater: we need an application server for our framework Action: chillywilly thwaps nickr with a trout jcater: GEAS may be a good start ow hey, maybe we can sucker them into rewriting gaes.. woops, did I say that outloud? thats the idea Action: jcater hasn't fully grokked what DotGNU is about er We may also be interested in further evolving our relationship with GNUe to mutually further our goals nickr: hehe - if that is the making of suckers then suckers we are probably end up rewriting the java api jcater: Well, do you have any questions or would you like an overview? sure I always like overviews the best we get is from chillywilly executive summaries and he doesn't really know much Action: jcater ducks that's not true chillywilly: there are no more fish jcater: Heh - well, here you go then S11001001: neve3r I have a monopoly on the trout We're in the process of designing an alternative to .Net and Hailstorm The premise being that webservices have a place in the future, regardless of what anyone thinks, and that MS shouldn't stand un-answered in thatarena that control of network authentication through passport and control of internet execution environment through .Net - even if it's only the potential control - would be devastating fil_c (username@du-039-0074.access.clara.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) phil_c (username@du-039-0074.access.clara.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) fitzix: you don't have to sell me againts an MS-monopoly :) what exactly does it DO though? but I don't grok what .Net is either In the end, ignoring it won't help anything because we'll be potentially buried by the time we realise we've lost From what I gather, Hailstorm is [de-]centralized authentication nickr: .Net? jcater: well, hailstorm is MS' webservice initiative OK - an overview of .Net and Hailstorm it is, then .Net is a framework that MS has developed that works around a few general concepts: 1) A versatile file format called IL that is a less language specific form of bytecode (it's not technically bytecode, but just bear with me) "intermediate langauge" 2) A series of languages that compile down to that format 3) A set of libraries that take advantage of the rest of the framework Those libraries house information concerning what MS calls "webservices" they speak SOAP/xmprc right? xmlrp c basically, MS defines webservices as any component that communicates with XML-RPC or SOAP chillywilly: yes, but it's a deficient explanation, if you ask me derek (~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. masta chillywilly: let him explain :) waddup g chillywilly: MS is missing the point hey derek Maniac (~somebody@h24-82-132-209.wp.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: aight hmmm did i walk in on a good discussion? yup the start of one invasion of the dotGNUs ;P crap im on windows too, need to fire up my laptop i cant handle windows derek: hehe - me neither :) jcater: So, that's a very short description of .Net wow I'm impressed I've literally asked dozens upon dozens of ppl what .Net is and that is the first coherent answer I've gotten dude jcater: hehe - thanks you never asked me it's a wannabe Java ;) sigh heheh that's no good explanation, chillywilly seriously though cause you *could* say python is that chillywilly: C# is, but there are other parts of it that have greater significance you never asked but it ain't bah - object based languages are a dime a dozen now python is java wannabe! brb in one minute python is the shit Action: jcater troutslaps nickr btw, for the record, I've always thought java was a failure me too java sucks. I like python though there I admitted it. i dont like python i love it ;) jcater: Java is a failure, it hasn't attained one of it's goals by failure, I mean they failed in the Write Once, Run Everywhere I've done major apps in Java + Swing all languages have their pluses and minuses, though and it don't happen jcater: i completely disagree in 1994 sun described everywhere as all versions of solaris jcater: yeah, that's one of the goals they've failed in but that doesn't mean dg won't support it :D jcater: they also failed to produce a java OS java ran on all version of solaris thus it ran everywhere :0 we don't have much love for Java in GNUe jcater: mongst other things S11001001: precisely derek: hehe - to Sun, that is the universe the failure of java was that it showed up too early hmm S11001001 i remember java the OS was supposed to be what netbsd is today I think the failure of java was it tried to be too much too soon S11001001: that was part of it... processors weren't ready for it, that's for sure i.e. can run on your toaster to your toilet paper dispenser not necessarily the timing S11001001: I'd say it was more poor application performance and platform independence issues as if it showed up too early, whatever, fyou guys should let itzix get on with his what is .NET speal ;) er, fitzix i dont think it showed up too early why do > 50% of all college CS graduates know Java in fact thats what SAVED it in MHO with fewer and fewer knowing C++ it was early enough that people accepted it even though it was crap anywho, this isn't about Java ;) derek: it is a very awkward language, that's for sure aah....fitzix, why are programmers choosing .net anyway? jcater: C++ was the language in our computer engineering program I think it was just very much overhyped and so we all expected too much of it Action: S11001001 prompts for further discussion on subject of DotGNU chillywilly: I'm dead serious.. go to the average college freshmen's catalog, and look at the Intro to OO syllabus oit it's java yea I was pissed when I saw that dneighbo (~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. it turned me off to CS jcater: well this is an engineering college so we take the practical approach :o made me choose design insteadi Action: chillywilly took Java as a CS elective S11001001: ill be honest and be the straight forward dick that i am and say that my love for .net concepts runs as far as my love for java i.e. i think its another overhyped technology set that addresses the wrong problems the wrong ways most importantly i think that the move to certain dispensing of web services will be the undoing of free software as it removes more control from the user when the doctrine of free software is to put power back in that very persons hand but i could argue all night on philosphy derek (~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left #gnuenterprise. Nick change: dneighbo -> derek derek: they want to use GEAS as their app server #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o derek' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. well in that case ... :) j/k S11001001: Well, people choose to use .Net for many different reasons. Some good and some bad. i think some of the principles are laudible, and i applaud (loudly) the efforts of dotGNU to not be like mono and just follow in .net's shadow mimicking everything do S11001001: Some people develop in it because it runs on windows and it's a microsoft technology - frankly, that's a bad reason :) derek: thanks Derek, that means a lot i.e. im not saying .net isnt trying to solve real problems derek: Incidentally, I agree with everything you just said. But ignoring it won't make it go away, so we have to face it and turn it around on them alexey (alex@195.151.214.33) joined #gnuenterprise. i think its just solving the wrong ones derek: ximian is probaly going to release a prop. verison of mono derek: just that MS' solution to those problems is wrong i.e. its solving problems that relate to how software companies can get revenue now that licensing models are tapped out which is the wrong problem derek: precisely derek: depends on who's defining the problem set the right problem is how to enrich the users experience while not further enslaving them rdean (rdean@chcgil2-ar2-052-243.chcgil2.dsl.gtei.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" i think they are attacking wrong derek: one of the points of the DotGNU webservice model is access to run services on local machine, and access to your data because most of the tools to solve the problems exist theyu just need some work derek: DotGNU? or Microsoft? microsoft insists instead of REDOING the work so they can CONTROL it brb derek: I seriously think dotGNU has their priorities straight S11001001: precisely chillywilly: heh - we've had long enough to work them out :) and freedom from M$ is the main focus, while also putting together a better system and downwardly supporting M$ .NET so ppl can choose different providers that's the way I see it chillywilly: that's a defeatist attitude as if freedom from M$ is the main focus then you've failed. Mark it as "freedom" period! as mono is freedom from M$ well being a GNU project that's sort of the whole point chillywilly: I'm not here as an anti-Microsoft statement neither am I I don't think that's fair to GNU didn't mean to imply that jcater: great point - I'd argue that what you're describing it what we're doing. The liberty Alliance is also freedom from MS, but you don't see me outright supporting them either.:) nope because more than likely they just want their cut and not to liberate ppl ;) jcater: DotGNU _was_ started in reaction to MS .NET. This is because the whole 'webservices' front, previously moving along at a steady pace, kicked into action. jcater: however, when Microsoft makes a move to hurt FS, we have to take a stance that is inherently anti-MS. But if MS went bankrupt tomorrow and the FS movement was instantly dissolved, well - I might have to commit suicide :) S11001001: yes, but we've expanded since then :) speaking of expansion DotGNU and GNUe could benefit from an official relationshi[ jcater: So it became urgent to provide a free software alternative. starting with our endorsement and development of GEAS and moving on from there yes they could :) fitzix: I think this also has to be run past reinhard as he's the official GEAS maintainer Perhaps even a merging of the projects similar to our merging with P.net could be promoted right derek/ ? chillywilly: I have no intention of leaving anyone out :) what exactly is DotGNU looking for in an App Server as that's quite a broad term chillywilly: I'm merely proposing it as an option. More than likely, DotGNU will endorse GEAS regardless. same thing we are, imho sorry missed some back log but jcater hit my view 100% a general purpose app server where you csn describe the objects and execute their methods, etc. i hear 'well we have to be compatiable with .net' to be success my answer is BULLSHIT linux isnt compatiable with windows and it seems to be doing fine by me if the answer is always just do a free version of microsoft we have already lost more importantly if the answer is web services we have already lost i dont know who said it but they said well we will let a local version too well thats great and all but the people wishing to exploit users will do so regardless of that btw: i dont know fully enough about dotGNU to say its good or bad Action: chillywilly doesn't think this is an ideaological argument of dotGNU and .NET, etc, but whether there's going to be some mutual relationship between these projects jcater: yes, it is. We're literally looking for anything. To fight proprietary we'll need to provide many different solutions. from what i have read its much more in alignment to me than mono and other ones but on some levels i question BUT with that said im not hear to complain or tear people down derek: there are some good points to microsoft's platform...why should we reinvent everything? er, dotGNU and GNUe projects that is anyone writing gpl code in my opinion is to be applauded derek: Well, there's one issue here - will ignoring it make it go away? fitzix: no, but i guess you are missing my point what exactly am i wanting to go away? the hype about microsoft? let me tell you my side for two minutes i work for a company that has 15,000 employees uh, oh... you got him started we have a operating budget of over 2.6 billion dollars a year we are the most pro microsoft shop in the world (its sickening) BUT you want to know something the applications that matter (payroll, human resources, procurement and finance) they run on an ibm mainframe w/ windows boxes that act as dumb terminals so aside from all the fluff and hype of client server, n tier, web services, dot net the technology from 30 years ago is still winning you know why? cause it does its job and when someones po or pay check is on the line, people dont mess with that so when you ask me what im ignoring? i ask you who is ignoring the mainframe and the dumb terminal? jcater: correct me if im wrong but dont you run diskless workstations for a 40 personal call center yip in essence turning your intel super server into a poor mans mainframe? hopefully soon to double :) yip heh, poor man now granted im not saying mainframe is the bomb its only way to go stick head in the sand poor man? im just saying when someone preaches the new technology of the day i can look back over past ten years and say hmmmm that one over that has with stood them all People pick their technology based on the problem they want to solve - and if it ain't broke, "fixing it" is a bad strategy poor man's mainframe, stuck me as funny, pardon the interruption. fitzix: yes, anyhow like i said i dont want to tear anyone down i dont think dotGNU is useless in fact i support it You're preaching to the choir here my friend. I think Unix is far better in basic form than any new OS out there. Just an example of where I agree with you. And we appreciate it. :) just i go nuts when people seem to think if we dont 'fight' microsoft on this we will die i honestly think microsoft is BAITING our community they get us to fight for web services and you know what happens we validate that moving the business model from license fees to service to use (leasing) is ok that is MHO dude but isn't Free Software a service/solution oriented thing anyway? chillywilly: you're missing the point S11001001 (sirian@63.64.10.45) left irc: Remote closed the connection when the software is THE SERVICE is when its wrong hrm if i give you a free napster for example and charge you for content to me that model is fine ra3vat (ds@195.239.204.226) joined #gnuenterprise. when i charge you to use a web version of napster that is wrong i.e. when i charge you to 'use' the software The great thing about the FS community is that it itself is multitaskable Unlike the proprietary monoliths in the world, we can move in different directions The big problem is companies like Ximian that bait the community themselves take free code and turning it proprietary That's just downright dishonest, if you ask me i am violating your freedoms you're chargiwng to host the software and let me use it on your host especially if the softawer is available outside of your service model ximian nickr: i agree in one sense not in the other I don't think it's wrong unless that's the only way to run that software i agree that you model is one of a service BUT i think that service removes me of my freedom unless you are RENTING me space and not the application ex: right if i rent bandwith, processor and hardisk from you well I think it'd be better to structure it that way anyway and able to CHANGE the application as i see fit then its 'free' what f your data is not on their server? if you simple host the application and you can shoose any provider? and allow me to use it for a fee but i cant change it at will etc how is this freedom subtracted? then you are removing my freedom I think that if the software is free, then you are free to choose any provider you want i think its more than that a consumer would choose reduced freedom for less hassle but it's GPL'd you have to give them the source code...anyone can be a potential provider not only must you be able to choose any provider you must be able to 'modify' people say well its gpl it empowers the user still so you can download but its deeper than that its much harder to do that wehn its hosted elsewhere and your data is etc etc also nothing prevents the 'host' from modifying and not giving chagnes back under the current GPL so say i take phpgroupware and modify the hell out of it and charge you to use it you can get the gpl base but not my modificatoins As long as they don't distribute it, you're quite right as techinically i let you use it i didnt 'distribute' it to you you see the implications? the grow and grow and grow, i can go on for hours on that topic but i will spare you all as you have heard me before :) Its dangerous, but I wouldn't personally agree with explicitly preventing it, I don't think. nickr: WE CAN NOT PREVENT IT I know in the sense that license doesnt provision for it im saying we need to not CONDONE it I'm just saying that I wouldn't agree with modifying the license to provide a preventative measure and by trying to push things that are .net like we are saying we condone software to be driven this way derek: License can't provision for it - can you imagine the can of worms that allowing for control of arbitrary behavior would open? at one time i said it was morally wrong derek: what prevents someone from being an ASP running GEAS? and using the same model us using corba would allow that i think rms mentioned that it wasnt 'morally wrong' that perhaps that was too harsh, but its not something we should promote chillywilly: absolutely nothing rms endorses dotGNU I don't think derek is saying "modify the license"... I think he's saying that if software goes the webservices route we WILL lose freedoms... we can't stop it, but LET'S NOT PROMOTE IT chillywilly: the difference is we are NOT PROMOTING it to be used that way he's on the committee for crying out loud jcater: thank you thats exactly what im saying chillywilly: no he isn't im not against web transports, ubiquity etc etc etc believe me read the gnue documentation I think that it'd be good to make it loud and clear that the model thaht is condoned is one where the modifications are given back to the communitiy chillywilly: he did appoint us, though fitzix: my bad I don't think it's going to change drastically from what you see with web applications, tho im against promoting applications as services and shifting licensing cost while removing freedoms to boot if it does go services, then we'll have to promote services that follow the 'morally correct' model, or people will use the services that don't Precisely mdean: i think there is some truth in your statement as well there's no room for getting blindsided here just some ;-) If the market deems it as profitable for them, we'd better be ready to leverage OUR way of doing it sorry but everyone and their mother runs windows and will probably be running XP in some facte or another so there's not going to be a way out for ppl it's a nasty balance if not, then DotGNU will fail along with .Net if you deny it then you really are naieve of course, by reacting, we could very well be tipping the balance jcater: I doubt it fitzix: i wonder sometimes BUT the good news is ive resolved to be stubborn as hell and something that i know enterprise i deal with need fitzix: I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying that's hard to determine and is a possibility we should be aware of jcater: This model depends largely on it's ability to be leveraged by the industry - in either case, DotGNU is not simply about ASP's - that's not even our focus and it never has been so i will let miguel and his merry men pal with microsoft :) and hope that dotGNU can clean up their mess :) jcater: abslutely, but if we're strong enough to tip the balance, we're strong enough to leverage our ethics on the industry fitzix: did norbet ever tell you about gnu rpc? kreiszner (~Ken4@ppp005.alx.la.xspedius.net) joined #gnuenterprise. fitzix: maybe this needs to be asked... Just how do you see us working together? derek: Norbert didn't mention it to me, but cw did the other day i think there is definitely room to collaborate Action: chillywilly claims ignorance ;) chillywilly: no need to state the obvious Action: derek runs jcater: Well, first of all there's the application server we are PRO collaboration whenever its appropriate/possible plz we are not too proud to work with others :) Action: mdean nods heh jcater: then, there are other components that could be of significant use, any network protocol work and any collaberation work could be very good But, in the end, serving applications is only one part of the deal well fitzix I commend you on retaining your composure and withstanding masta's and jc's ranting i see the first thing that is worth collaborating on is gnu rpc it basically would be an implementation agnostic rpc dotGNU needs an object model though that speaks these protocols I'm still hung up on the App Server thing the framework is designed to be a local execution model first and foremost, then serve applications on that aspect should it be needed i.e. an abstraction that speaks soap, xml-rpc, corba, dcom etc etc etc derek: that would be eminantly valuable currently jcater is got some basics working but they are PYTHON only Action: kreiszner is away: I'm busy as basically GEAS is 1) an Object to Relational mapping agent and 2) A data load balancer as we are a python software haus now :) BUT what would be REALLY valuable would be someone to do it in C so I'm wondering how that fits in with dotGNU's needs for an App Server so that it could be swigged jcater: it SHOULD be a bit more than just that so perl, php, python etc could use or something similar hi kreiszner Well, GEAS won't be the ONLY project to be used we're taking the best from each remote execution model and attempting to combine it over time Of course, people can already execute remote applications over ssh tunnels So... there are lots of dimensions to remote application services chillywilly: actually, I agreed with a lot of what Derek said. However, I think we need to answer it. it being the potential damage that could be caused by industry mandated webservices Action: kreiszner is back (gone 00:03:00) Hyopthetical sitaution sorry, I have just got accustomed to tuning him out when he gets like that derek: hello :P Action: chillywilly has to give him some shit back you know ;) heh hypothetical situation: what if the gov't mandates the use of a digital identity would you prefer one that is Free and has multiple vendors, or one that is not and has only one? we overthrow the gov't? hehe sit #2: The IRS decides to file all taxes via webservices They choose a .Net style framework alexey (alex@195.151.214.33) left irc: "[x]chat" chillywilly: I amfor the overthrow bit :) kreiszner: you want to get that gnue working :) Being a US citizen gains owning or having access to proprietary software as a pre-requisite bad situation, wouldn't you say? sure yes, we need to get the gov't off drug^H^H^Hproprietary software but having a free alternative in that situation probably will not change the outcome derek: yes if your up to it I may have to take a brake in a few min to put my Mother to bed derek: The model is coming, one way or another - we have to decide whether we want to influence it or not unfortunately kreiszner: do a /join #gnue in your xchat box so we dont disrupt this discussion jcater: But there's more chance of it than if we do nothing derek: did that do it nope hwere you just typed derek: did that do it instead type /join #gnue alexey (alex@techkran.vladimir.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (alex@techkran.vladimir.ru) left irc: Client Quit fitzix: i can live with that answer i got jaded w/ dotGNU a bit i guess from free developer's leadershp and the mailing list there derek: Yes, I think I understand what you mean - but, feel free to elaborate on that... there are aspects to FD that I don't think apply to dotgnu, and vice versa --- Fri Jan 11 2002