[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<derek> fitzix: way early on in FD
<derek> there was discussion that FD woudl become a grandiose ASP
<derek> and a dotGNU like spec put forth
<derek> iirc
<derek> whether dotGNU was birthed from that or separately i dont recall as i left before then
<fitzix> separately
<derek> as i think the leadership of FreeDevelopers is not strong enough to carry it
<fitzix> I believe the project you're referring to was called Netwerks
<derek> and rather than criticize, i left
<derek> fitzix: yip that was it
<fitzix> derek: the problem is that we want the community to do most of the base work.  There are few great minds in the community - so starting the work is problematic.
<derek> i disagree
<fitzix> derek: This is something that has also plagued DotGNU for some time...
<derek> the problem is you have leaders that ...
<derek> never mind i will shut up
<fitzix> derek: "great minds" is probably the wrong wording
<fitzix> derek: No - go on :)
<derek> we will just say i gave an opinion and was flamed
<fitzix> derek: or somewhere private if you like
<derek> i predicted what has happened
<jcater> no
<chillywilly> he means Tony, but he doesn't have the balls to say it
<jcater> no private messages
<jcater> I forbid it
<jcater> ;)
<derek> FD went from a group of 400 EXCITED developers
<derek> to a dead mailing list in less than a year
<derek> i warned the leadership what they were doing woudl do that
<derek> they told me to fuck off
<derek> so i did
<derek> and chillywilly it was more than tony
<chillywilly> bullshit
<chillywilly> you got stubborn and left
<fitzix> jcater: hehe - I can understand if he wouldn't want to say specifics on a logged connection'
<derek> tony happened to be the only one that was rude about it, the other just conceded to his opinion
<derek> fitzix: you dont me, im pretty candid
<jcater> fitzix: nah, I know him better than that
<derek> i can put my foot in my mouth wiht the best of them
<fitzix> heh
<jcater> fitzix: let's just say, neither he nor I will ever run for President ;)
<fitzix> jcater: hehe
<jcater> fitzix: as the press would have a field day just from these logs
Action: fitzix is a free speech person
Action: chillywilly is as slick as a cactus
<fitzix> anyway, I'd really like more background so that I can fight this type of thing when it comes up again
<chillywilly> I mentioned this to you before didn't I fitzix?
<fitzix> chillywilly: I know part of the story, I think... but I want to be sure
<chillywilly> one thing I didn't like is that derek felt he had to leave
<chillywilly> it was horse shit
<fitzix> Nobody should feel they have to leave - unless they're Martin Coxall but we gave him a lot of leway
<chillywilly> Radi still holds a grudge
<chillywilly> afaik
<fitzix> chillywilly: against Derek?
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> but I could care less about him he has since disappeared
<derek> fitzix: i admit on some things im a pushy it know it all
<derek> or thats probably how i come off online
<chillywilly> but I back up my masta for the most part ;)
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<derek> i think that may have been the case and they reacted wrong to it
<derek> i admit my part in that
<fitzix> derek: you have strong opinions - nothing wrong with that... but it can take a strong person to just listen
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> true dat
<derek> but way i saw it as being a comaintainer of gnue for over a year at that time
<derek> i had SEEN what had happened in our gnue community
<derek> both good and bad
<nickr> chillywilly: thats my line!
<derek> i saw them doing all the bad things and none of the good ones
<derek> they REFUSED to listen
<fitzix> derek: so you had experience to guide yourself by
<chillywilly> nickr: no way dude its mine now ;)
<derek> stating i was wrong, just wait and see as soon as they did X it would fix everything
<derek> at that point i left, because i felt it was an up hill battle
<dsmith> chillywilly: true dat
<derek> and everything i said we being cc'd to RMS and whined about
<chillywilly> FD politics is a bit fucked up
<chillywilly> imho
<derek> i have to fight with rms enough about gnue things
<derek> i didnt need to spend my conversations with him on FD thigns too :)
<fitzix> heheh
<fitzix> And of course he only gets one side
<fitzix> politics has plagued DotGNU from the beginning...
<chillywilly> oh yes
Action: chillywilly remembers an irate person in #dotgnu...nick starts with an 'M'
<derek> politics is fun fun fun
<jcater> Maniac?
<chillywilly> no
<derek> mozilla?
<derek> maude?
<derek> mildred?
<derek> marvin?
<derek> melvin?
<derek> martin?
<chillywilly> Myrridian
<nickr> MrChillywilly
<derek> ah that was gonna be me next guess. (yeah right)
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> he's a dotgnu guy
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<chillywilly> reinhard: hey man
<derek> euro, euro, everbody do the euro dance... the euro dance...
Action: derek figures by about now reinhard is ready to shove some euros up some ones rear to make them go away :)
<reinhard> :)
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<chillywilly> night derek
<chillywilly> reinhard: 
<chillywilly> all
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<reinhard> l8r all
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<jamest> ra3vat: have you seen madlocke lately
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<jamest> anyone on the commit mailing list?
<jamest> man
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<ra3vat> jamest: he received the information that you was looking for him
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<jcater> 'suo, my dawgs?
<jamest> just chill'n
<jamest> and kill'n
<jamest> ra3vat: thanks
Action: ra3vat is away: I'm busy
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<jamest> um
<jamest> does this name ring a bell
<jamest> Maurizio Boriani
Action: jamest is blanking
<jamest> he's uploaded geas .debs to the debian pool
<dneighbo> he is our debian package maintainer for geas
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> we need a maintainer for the tools that are usable
<jcater> albeit not as sexy
<dneighbo> jcater discussing with him now
<jcater> cool
<jamest> lol
<jamest> geas is usable
<jamest> IIRC treshna was using in production system
<jamest> :)
<dneighbo> hope to hear back from maurizio soon
<dneighbo> btw: ben armstrong offerred to help answer debian packing questions too
<dneighbo> jcater and i had discussed this some the other day
<dneighbo> we REALLY need gnue in debian
<dneighbo> all of gnue
<dneighbo> we need something for redhat too :)
<dneighbo> to handle db drivers and such
<dneighbo> and a script to 'test' the install w/ diagnostics
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<baux> Hi All!
<baux> derek: are you there?
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> we need someone to do it then
<jcater> baux: howdy!!!
<ToyMan> *sigh*
<ToyMan> Access died again
<jcater> dneighbo was here
<jcater> the users must've dragged him away
<ToyMan> what?  doing *actual* work?
<jamest> dneighbo? do actual work?
<jamest> hmmmm
<jamest> what a concept
<ToyMan> well, you can work up a real sweat pontificating...
<baux> There some doc out of there which explain how to use method written in python?
<jamest> use in what way?
<baux> How could I call them from a remote host
<dneighbo> im here
[10:50] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo> btw: jamest and jcater are compentent (i think)
<dneighbo> basically we have several gnue packages
<dneighbo> all of which can run alone or on their own (well kind of)
<dneighbo> and we would like to see all of them in deb format
<jamest> compentent?
<dneighbo> with dependencies taken care of
<baux> dneighbo: all released gnue software are already in debian pool
<dneighbo> all of us abuse debian regularly but dont know how to make debian packages
<dneighbo> baux ?
<dneighbo> gnue forms
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<dneighbo> gnue common
<dneighbo> gnue designer 
<dneighbo> are in the pool?
<dneighbo> last i looked only geas was there
<baux> gnue forms not, I did'nt see it offial released, is it now?
<dneighbo> baux yes common, forms and designer are all released
<baux> you can look at http://packages.debian.org 
<dneighbo> and much more mature than geas at this point
<baux> dneighbo: this are in pool from yesterday
<dneighbo> as for packages can we get conformity?
<jamest> if forms, common, designer are debianized
<dneighbo> i would like to see
<dneighbo> gnue-geas
<dneighbo> gnue-forms
<dneighbo> gnue-common
<dneighbo> gnue-designer
<dneighbo> etc as the package names
<jamest> i would have to dance a happy dance
<dneighbo> and eventually would like to make a task-gnue
<baux> dneighbo: oki, I'll do this 
<jamest> baux: you going to packge the others up?
<dneighbo> btw: we are sooooo greatful
<baux> dneighbo: task are deprecated, now is in user a particular flag in package description
<dneighbo> we woudl LOVE to have a debian maintainer
<dneighbo> baux : yeah, i meant the concept
<dneighbo> thats why we need a debian guy around :)
<dneighbo> nickr and jbailey are our debian studs, but havent had time to package gnue up
<jamest> baux: if you are willing to do a packaging of forms and friends
<baux> dneighbo: oki, could I be on navy?
<baux> aboard?
<dneighbo> yes, we would love to have you
<jamest> baux: please let us know what you need to make it easier for you to make this happen
<dneighbo> would you be willing to do copyright assignment to free software foundation?
<dneighbo> and as jamest says please feel free to stop in here and ask questions, we see LOTS of improvement for the install of gnue
<dneighbo> on almost all platforms
<dneighbo> and how do we go about getting new releases to you and debians made?
<jcater> oh, if I could just do apt-get install gnue-forms, 
<dneighbo> as we hope to do another forms, designer, common release w/in the month iirc
<jcater> I'd have to cream myself
<dneighbo> the good news is that we dont release often :)
<jamest> and as much KK as you eat, that'd be a lot of cream
<dneighbo> jamest: rofl
Action: jamest ducks
<dneighbo> btw: i found a krispy kreme glazed on my desk waiting for me this morning
<dneighbo> guess boss brought in donuts
<dneighbo> only in america do you see a fat bozo
<dneighbo> shoving in a 1000 calorie kk glazed
<dneighbo> while slurrping on a 'diet cola'
<jamest> baux: when you debianize a package I assume you need to make config files 
<jamest> baux: then run some tool on those files
<baux> now are packaged: geas, gnue-common, gnue-designer 
<dneighbo> baux also if you will probably get asked lots of questions
<dneighbo> hmmmm
<dneighbo> how did you package designer?
<dneighbo> as i think it depends on forms
<dneighbo> iirc
<baux> yes!
<dneighbo> forms should depend on common
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> designer on forms and common
<dneighbo> apart from the other dependencies
<jamest> baux: if that is the case then we can get you cvs access and you can put those files in there
<dneighbo> also, if we are talking more complex packaging
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<dneighbo> i would love to see
<dneighbo> gnue-psycopg
<baux> I've respected all depend for all package, is a rule for us
<dneighbo> gnue-popy
<dneighbo> etc etc
<dneighbo> so that you can install the drivers 
<dneighbo> well never mind
<baux> and If some is buggy on packages anyone can opent a bug on bugs.debian.org
Action: dneighbo is on crack, we dont need that
<dneighbo> baux when will they hit
<dneighbo> i just did update and only  old geas is in there currently
<jamest> baux: we could also add setup.py deb to our stuff to create the debs based upon your work if it'd make your life easier
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<jamest> basically I think several of us will cater to your needs to make this happen 
<baux> jamest: we could
<jcater> yes, we will
<baux> dneighbo: i'm cheking...
<jamest> as I'd be creaming right along side cater
<jamest> well, maybe in the room next to him
<jamest> i wouldn't want to expose myself to that at any cost
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<jcater> hrm
<baux> dneighbo: excuse me, them are already in approval committee
<baux> usually take 10 days to pass it
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<baux> I'm uploading packages on my personal home page, and send you the url
<baux> you can find all my work in http://www.debian.org/~baux/packages/
<jamest> cool
<jamest> hmmm
<dneighbo> s'oui mag
<jamest> i wonder
<jamest> IIRC python .pyc files are platform independent correct?
<baux> jamest: yes! them are parsed
<jamest> if so the .i386 files may work on other platforms too 
<baux> It could but I'm not sure
<baux> don't worry usually debian porters'll check this point
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<dsmith> Istr .py -> .pyc stuff going on at package install time.
<dsmith> But I've been wrong before.
<dneighbo> baux you mind me posting to our list your personal site for the deb packages?
<dneighbo> so we can try to get people to start testing them
<dneighbo> or i suppose its better to wait until they hit sid
<dneighbo> baux your assignment paperwork should be en route via email
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<baux> dneighbo: no problem send it
<reinhard> baux you are the baux that is @debian.org?
<jamest> he's done .debs for us!
<baux> reinhard: yes
<reinhard> baux: cool
<dsmith> Yayyy! Debs!
<baux> dneighbo: what is GEAS-SYS in parse_load_sql.py?
<jamest> baux: reinhard is the one to ask
<reinhard> baux: just let me answer that
<jamest> he's a GEAS dude
<reinhard> just a sec just got home
<jamest> dneighbo's more a bug finding, coder torturing monster
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> baux: when geas creates tables it automatically creates some columns
<reinhard> like sys_id, sys_date_created, sys_user_created
<reinhard> or something close to that
<reinhard> sys_id for example is the primary key and we fill it with 32 char UUID's
<reinhard> when you supply a file to load defaults into geas
<reinhard> you can use GEAS-SYS as a placeholder for these columns
<reinhard> or for the values that go into those columns respectively
<reinhard> you can see an example of how to use it in
<baux> reinhard: is geas configurable for this?
<reinhard> gnue/packages/base/location/insert-en-country-codes.geas
<reinhard> configurable for what exactly?
<baux> reinhard: I was tryin this but dont work, in my table are'nt this fields (I'm using released version of geas)
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<reinhard> baux: which release?
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<reinhard> it wasn't there in 0.0.5
<reinhard> but should work in 0.0.6
<baux> reinhard: 0.0.6
<reinhard> baux: will you be here in an hour?
<baux> yes
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> i will be back
<baux> oki
<reinhard> sorry that i have to go now
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<reinhard> bb in 1 hour
<baux> bye
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<reinhard> back
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<reinhard> baux: i am compiling geas-0.0.6 now to test the automatic columns
<reinhard> baux: you are 100% correct
<reinhard> in 0.0.6 the automatic column was named objectid not sys_id
<reinhard> it's been a too long time since the last release :(
<reinhard> (2001-08-24) :((
<baux> reinhard: HI!
<baux> well back
<baux> reinhard: yes, I'm sure
<reinhard> baux: i am sorry and highly unsatisfied with the current state of geas
<baux> why?
<reinhard> last release is nearly 5 months ago
<reinhard> we had lots of changes since then
<reinhard> incompatible changes (like the db column names)
<baux> you'd like to release erlyer
<reinhard> geas is currently in a state of transition as we rewrite parts of the code
<reinhard> and development has nearly stopped for over a month now :(
<reinhard> because i am swamped in my real life job
<baux> reinhard: all of us must swamped with real life work :(
<reinhard> probably it will be 2 or 3 weeks till i can resume on geas
<reinhard> and current cvs is a mess
<baux> reinhard: I've co it, yes is a little mess
<reinhard> however i can at least promise that i _will_ resume
<reinhard> baux: i would be curious what you did see as a "mess"
<baux> and I promise that I use geas as back-end of is where I work
<reinhard> because i wonder if it's the same mess i am talking about :)
<baux> are there some empty dir, test file and so on, did you mean this?
<baux> if I use geas at work, i could work on it in real life work :)
<reinhard> empty dirs in cvs can't be deleted (cvs doesn't let you remove dirs in the repository)
<reinhard> you should do co -Pd
<reinhard> there are a lot of test files that are not up to date
<reinhard> and you can be happy you didn't see the _real_ mess yet ;)
<baux> so what did you mean?
<reinhard> the current problem is that we did a rewrite of the .gcd file parser
<reinhard> and some parts of geas use the new parser
<reinhard> and some parts use the old one
<reinhard> as the transition is not yet complete
<baux> ah! oki I understand
<reinhard> so we have 2 modules A and B which do the same thing
<reinhard> and still both are used
<reinhard> this is what i work at currently
<reinhard> s/work/would work if i had time/
<baux> one with new parser and another with old one
<reinhard> exactly
<reinhard> the old parser is code you can only touch with rubber gloves
<reinhard> like impossible to change something without breaking it alltogether
<reinhard> so i have to keep the new one compatible with the old as long as both are active
<reinhard> even for things we want to change in syntax
<dneighbo> was someone actively looking to use gnuecommon dbdrivers for geas yet?
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> we had some discussion
<reinhard> jamest and me iirc
<baux> it could'nt be a simple thing
<reinhard> we didn't end it because of my lack of time
<reinhard> iirc
<dneighbo> as one of things i remember as being 'messy' still
<dneighbo> was the abnormally large number of calls by geas to get and manipulate data
<reinhard> yes but that is not the dbdriver
<dneighbo> perhaps this wasnt in the driver as much as the oql or whatever it was
<reinhard> that's one layer above
<reinhard> dneighbo: yes what you said
<dneighbo> but i think switching to the drivers would help force clean that up :)
<reinhard> still even one layer above oql
<dneighbo> or at least provide a good opportunity too :)
<baux> what's oql?
<reinhard> (dneighbo: geas has more layers than you can think of)
<dneighbo> object query language
<reinhard> another of the good ideas in geas
Action: jcater remembers "Shrek"
<reinhard> that was actually not implemented
<jcater> GEAS is like an onion
<dneighbo> reinhard : you know im pretty much pro a thorough gutting of geas :)
<jcater> it has layers
<dneighbo> jcater : rofl :)
<reinhard> baux: seriousl
<reinhard> y
<reinhard> oql is the module in geas that builds the SQL queries
<reinhard> from front-end object retrievement/manipulation requests
<baux> I was suspecting it...
<reinhard> apart from that OQL is a "standard" language for object retrievement and manipulation
<reinhard> and i think the original idea was to support that standard language
<baux> sql-91
<baux> s/91/92
<reinhard> but that was not done
<reinhard> no it's not sql
<dneighbo> its oql
<reinhard> it's like an object oriented brother of sql
<dneighbo> i.e. i think omg calls it oql too
<baux> i did'nt know this
<dneighbo> the idea was to make geas comply to the object query language standard
<dneighbo> ONE HANGUP
<dneighbo> the standard cost money to get a copy of
<dneighbo> (great way to do standards eh)
<baux> I remember a big company which do a terrible os
<reinhard> hehe
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> Filesystem           1k-blocks      Used Available Use% Mounted on
<reinhard> /dev/sda3              8426728   7897462     92298  99% /
<dneighbo> at its odmg not omg...
<baux> bad thing :(
<reinhard> the other problem was imho
<reinhard> that the backends really only support sql
<reinhard> so you have to translate oql into sql
<dneighbo>  Object Specification Languages
<dneighbo> 3.1 Introduction
<dneighbo> 3.2 Object Definition Language
<dneighbo> 3.3 Object Interchange Format
<dneighbo> 4 Object Query Language
<dneighbo> 4.1 Introduction
<dneighbo> 4.2 Principles
<dneighbo> 4.3 Query Input and Result
<dneighbo> 4.4 Dealing with Object Identity
<dneighbo> 4.5 Path Expressions
<dneighbo> 4.6 Undefined Values
<dneighbo> 4.7 Method Invoking
<dneighbo> 4.8 Polymorphism
<dneighbo> 4.9 Operator Composition
<reinhard> which means you have to write another parser for the oql language
<dneighbo> 4.10 Language Definition
<dneighbo> 4.11 Syntactical Abbreviations
<dneighbo> 4.12 OQL BNF
<dneighbo> but you have to buy the 'book'
<baux> what's title?
<baux> good and nice friends are a good thing but I've dinner
<baux> so
<baux> bye and hear you soon
<baux> s/hear/ear/
<dneighbo> ok bye bye
<baux> I think monday, this week end I'll have a trip on mountain to my granpa
<baux> bye you all
<reinhard> bye baux
<reinhard> have a nice weekend
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<baux> thank you 
<baux> bye
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<Yurik> re
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<jamest> hi
<chillywilly> thought jbailey was going to be our debian maintainer
<jamest> he was 
<jamest> but lack of time IIRC
<chillywilly> ah
<jamest> derek: I'm working on geas/common db integration
<chillywilly> uh oh
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest> the segfault in orbit on corba booleans sidetracked me however
<chillywilly> you are hacking in C?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> believe it or not
<chillywilly> I can't believe it
Action: dneighbo sends jamest the 'sorry hope you get well soon card'
<jamest> hacking in C has helped remind me of the finer things in life
<jamest> like python
Action: jamest runs
<dneighbo> as im sure the trauma of going back to C has done some emotion if not physical damage :)
<chillywilly> whatever
<reinhard> jamest: any progress there since we last talked?
<jamest> um
<jamest> not much
<reinhard> iirc you don't need corba for the dbdriver integration
<jamest> working on a clean C/Python interface
<jamest> i don't 
<reinhard> ah ok
<jamest> however I made geas I higher priority
<jamest> then when it quit working I started cleanup work
<jamest> thinking it was a geas issue not an orbit one
<jamest> then discovered it was orbit issue
<jamest> and haven't started again on either yet
<jamest> sorry
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> nevermind
<jamest> I'm trying :)
<jamest> honest
<reinhard> actually i wanted to make sure that you don't put lots of work into geas/common integration
<jamest> also, converted a bunch of old forms to the new forms
<reinhard> without talking to me
<jamest> ok
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<chillywilly> hey reinhard
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<chillywilly> did you read the logs from the other day?
<chillywilly> about collaboration with dotGNU and them wanting to use GEAS
<jcater> I still don't follow that
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<jcater> as I don't see how GEAS is related to generic application serving
Action: Yurik is back
<jcater> i.e., I see GEAS as a more specialized app server
<jcater> and it currently is
<jcater> i.e., it is an Object-to-Relational mapper with nifty features
<chillywilly> it is pretty generic
<chillywilly> you can specify any type of objects
<jcater> (like load-balancing and caching)
<chillywilly> and execute theor metods
<jcater> if it's a fit, then great
<jcater> but I don't think you want GEAS to become overly all-inclusive
<jcater> of course, I'm not involved with the design of geas, so I may be off-base
<jcater> but that's what I've observed
<chillywilly> it SHOULD ne generic
<chillywilly> s/ne/be
<chillywilly> making something generic and with certain features isn't an all-inclusive thing
<chillywilly> we have basically a certain feature set
<chillywilly> that we want it to have
<chillywilly> I don;'t see it as being specialized
<jcater> ok, then over-reaching may be a better word than all-inclusive
<chillywilly> well this is really reinhard's call and we all know GEAS needs help
<jcater> that's why I said
<jcater> of course, I'm not involved with the design of geas, so I may be off-base
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<chillywilly> who me where GEAS is "specialized"
<chillywilly> show
<jcater> dude
<jcater> it serves data
<jcater> from a relational backend
<chillywilly> it servers objects
<chillywilly> serves
<jcater> I don't know why you're arguing with me
<jcater> I'm simply stating my observation
<jcater> not some grandios plan
<jcater> I said I could be off-base
<chillywilly> because you are arguing with me
<chillywilly> that;s why
<chillywilly> I said "hey reinhard"
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> that wasn't targeted at your
<chillywilly> I already know your feeling on the subject
<jcater> you
<jcater> that was a general statement
<jcater> so when reinhard read yours and commented on your statement, 
<jcater> he'd read mine and comment there
<jcater> as I'm curious as well
<reinhard> so as you both want to know my statement i will give you some
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> the design goal of geas is to be the application server of the GNUe project
<reinhard> and do everything it needs
<reinhard> s/it/GNUe/
<reinhard> if others find they can use geas for other purpose this is their decision
<reinhard> i will neither talk them into it nor out of it
<reinhard> i would rather give them objective information if they ask for some
<reinhard> and of course i will be happy if they find geas even more useful than it was initially designed for
<reinhard> --
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<chillywilly> wouldn't you agree that it is pretty generic in its own right in that it lets you define your own objects and methods?
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<reinhard> i can't answer this question for 2 reasons
<reinhard> a) i actually don't know other app servers and therefore can't tell
<reinhard> b) i don't care if it is generic or not because that's not important for me
<chillywilly> what die sknowing other app server  have to do wether GEAS is generic?
<chillywilly> heh, that makes no sense....if you want code to be extensible and reusable then you build it as such
<reinhard> i don't know how to define "generic" for an app server
<chillywilly> how about that it can be easily adapted for other purposes, even purposes that it may nit have initially have been intended for
<dneighbo> im not sure what it means to be a 'generic' application server
<dneighbo> i see geas supporting a myriad of backends
Action: fil_c is not sure either
<reinhard> dneighbo: makes me happy that you are not sure either :)
<chillywilly> any type of application can be served
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> from access to specialized object databases to ldap
<dneighbo> i see it handling about any remote transport possible
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> that is generic
<dneighbo> BUT i dont think i see it as being 'object neutral'
<chillywilly> reusable
<chillywilly> object neutrla makes no sense
<dneighbo> i.e. i dont see it as being able to use corba objects or soap objects opposed to gnue objects
<chillywilly> what does that mean?
<dneighbo> i.e. i expect it to always derive its objects off gnue definitions
<dneighbo> but it should be flexible on where it can store them
<chillywilly> I think we should us eodl definitions
<dneighbo> and their data
<chillywilly> odl
<chillywilly> or support it
<dneighbo> and should be flexible on how to carry the data
<chillywilly> this is the fundamental difference I guess
<dneighbo> honestly i am starting to have 'mixed' feelings on geas
<dneighbo> my gut tells me that upfront just putting a transport layer
<dneighbo> and remote methods
<dneighbo> would be infinitely worthwhile and easy to do (relatively speaking)
<dneighbo> and ignore the concept of 'objects' for data and the object-relational mapper
<chillywilly> ummm, no
<chillywilly> you only feel this way becasue you don't care for OO
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> btw: im not saying that it would be long term
<dneighbo> im saying right now im not seeing sufficient advancement in geas to be productive for me
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<dneighbo> i see writing something htat does transport and remote methods as being much more simple (Read quick) to implement
<chillywilly> dude I know this guy who has an object server that talks all different protocols he was in #dotgnu and he made it join the channel and talk irc protocol, it was funky
<dneighbo> and gets my 95% of what i want out of geas
<dneighbo> i.e. out of geas i want remote methods
<dneighbo> and ability to separate logic from client
<dneighbo> and logic from data (server wise)
<dneighbo> i.e. i want true n-tier
<fil_c> dneighbo: what exactly do you mean by "remote methods". Can you give an example?
<dneighbo> fil_c : the method lives on the server and not the client
<reinhard> dneighbo: i am very sorry for the lack of advancement currently
<dneighbo> reinhard its not a flame on you, believe me
<fil_c> dneighbo: ok.. but what would an example method be?
<dneighbo> fil_c : currently you can have a trigger in a form
<dneighbo> or you can have a trigger in a file that gets called by a form but you have to 'include' the form
<dneighbo> in my view instead i would like to see
<dneighbo> the form 'connect' (remote or local) to the appserver
<dneighbo> and then be able to call any methods on the appserver
<dneighbo> thus allowing for greater flexibility, maintainability and accessibility :)
<dneighbo> i assume this would be very similar to RMI (remote method invocation) on java
<dneighbo> specifically i think of MIDAS technology from borland
<dneighbo> which did data and bizrules remotely
<dneighbo> via either dcom+,corba,sockets or a prop transport (me cant recall the name)
<dneighbo> i.e. it had 'transport choice'
<dneighbo> and it used BDE on the backend (so it had 'database storage choice') as well
<dneighbo> the way it was designed made it easy to write applications as single tier, 2 tier or n-tier in same environment
<dneighbo> i.e. the object model for things wsa similar throughout
<dneighbo> btw: for public record i am not against and object to relational mapper
<dneighbo> i just see the value as being less than the other items
<dneighbo> and taking the majority of the time
Action: dneighbo could be crazy though
<dneighbo> fil_c hopefully i answered your question
<dneighbo> as im sure i have pissed everyone off in the process
<fil_c> dneighbo: I think so.  Thanks... sorry everyone else!
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<jcater> not I
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<jcater> your name must start with ch* to tick me off
<jcater> ;)
<fil_c> meow
<reinhard> night all
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<dneighbo> anyone here gotten java working mozilla?
<Yurik> tried to
<S11001001> dneighbo: yes (gnu-linux-x86)
<chillywilly> jcater: you suck
<chillywilly> how does fucking introdusing new ideas here always get me intoa  nice flame war?
<jcater> dude
<jcater> wtf are you talking about
<chillywilly> ok, argument
<chillywilly> flame war is a bit harsh
Action: chillywilly is away: I'm busy
Action: jcater thinks of it as a discussion
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Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:16:58)
<chillywilly> ok, so I ask about collaboration with another projecta nd what happens at the end is derek declares GEAS to be obsolete and taking too long, etc., etc. that is rots wacked
<chillywilly> rots?
Action: chillywilly thinks his fingers are possessed
Action: jcater doesn't recall derek calling GEAS obsolete
<fil_c> just taking a long time
Action: Yurik is back
<chillywilly> he'd rather not invest the time in it and have a quick hack...well I'll tell you one thing we already have on of those and no on likes it
Action: jcater doesn't recall derek saying that either
<chillywilly> oh plz
<Yurik> chillywilly btw, what is a problem with GEAS? Just wondering..
<chillywilly> [14:48:59] <dneighbo> i just see the value as being less than the other items
<chillywilly> [14:49:05] <dneighbo> and taking the majority of the time
<chillywilly> [14:43:26] <dneighbo> i see writing something htat does transport and remote methods as being much more simple (Read quick) to implement
<chillywilly> [14:40:54] <dneighbo> honestly i am starting to have 'mixed' feelings on geas
<chillywilly> [14:41:09] <dneighbo> my gut tells me that upfront just putting a transport layer
<chillywilly> [14:41:12] <dneighbo> and remote methods
<chillywilly> [14:41:27] <dneighbo> would be infinitely worthwhile and easy to do (relatively speaking)
<chillywilly> yadda yadda
Action: jcater recalls derek pointing out that maybe more effort could go into the transport and remote methods code instead of so much time being put in the object-to-relational part
<chillywilly> geas is not worthwhile then right?
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> you remind me of my wife
<chillywilly> that part has beendone
<chillywilly> there's no time going into that part by anyone
<chillywilly> plus when he speaks of being able to execute methods on the server, etc...well gee isn't that kinda what it does right now
<Yurik> chillywilly btw, what is a problem with GEAS? Just wondering... :-)
<chillywilly> the only problem is the current code is much to be desired and no one really wants to build on it but rewrite it
<chillywilly> s/is/leaves
<chillywilly> and some cool guy started on the gcd parser  ;)
<chillywilly> anyway, bye
<chillywilly> I must go
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<dneighbo> jcater hummm wonder how i got mis represented
<jcater> did I misrepresent you?
<dneighbo> no
<dneighbo> but i guess i 'what i was saying'
<fil_c> did I?
<dneighbo> was delete geas from cvs its worthless
<dneighbo> derek declares GEAS to be obsolete
<dneighbo> er
<dneighbo> "derek declares GEAS to be obsolete"
<dneighbo> or maybe im just saying everything should be shitty software
<dneighbo> <chillywilly> he'd rather not invest the time in it and have a quick
<dneighbo>               hack...well I'll tell you one thing we already have on of those
<dneighbo>               and no on likes it
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> btw: i have ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS stated
<dneighbo> im pro designing software
<dneighbo> but over all i will take something that works today
<dneighbo> than something that is most beautiful architected that never sees light of day
<dneighbo> i.e. im not afraid to 'rewrite' software or take a waterfall approach
<dneighbo> anyhow, chilly i respect your opinion, hope you can do the same for mine ** for logs **
<jcater> so, what you are saying is we should abandon geas
<jcater> right?
<jcater> ;)
<dneighbo> now to clarify myself :)
<dneighbo> i think things that would be good for gnue
<dneighbo> a. get geas working with common
<dneighbo>   1. get it using the common db
<dneighbo>   2. get it using common rpc
<dneighbo> b. get trigger language for both geas and forms sketched out
<dneighbo>   1. implement the trigger system for both
<dneighbo> all of which could be independent of the object stuff
<dneighbo> if that stuff gets done
<dneighbo> and we are still at a stalled point then i say perhaps make a non object n tier option
<dneighbo> in many ways i think we should be doing it all in python
<dneighbo> i.e. rather than spend time wrapping common
<dneighbo> so that it can be used by C
<dneighbo> replace the C
Action: fil_c is worried about the speed issue with python (but leave that until after it's done in python)
<dneighbo> i think it woudl be quicker and be better off
<dneighbo> fil_c : i agree 1000%
<dneighbo> proof it in python and get it running in python
<dneighbo> if its too slow you can always move parts out to C
<jcater> python is the perfect prototyping language
<dneighbo> btw: i dont think python will be too slow
<dneighbo> java is similar speed as python
<jcater> because it is so easy to pull slow python code out and replace w/optimized C code
<dneighbo> and i dont see people saying enhydra or jboss are unusable
<jcater> although I haven't seen a good example of where that needed to be done
<dneighbo> but anyhow i wont go down that path
Action: dsmith is away: Dinner!
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<dneighbo> hi kreiszner 
<dneighbo> its early today :)
<dneighbo> jcater maybe you can help i cant get postgres to accept a tcp/ip connection for him
<jcater> um
<dneighbo> seems similar to that issue we had in san francisco
<dneighbo> it was late though
<kreiszner> well I am here but in widoz I will reboot in sec and get into irc on Linux
<dneighbo> so i might have not been thinking well
<dneighbo> kreiszner okie
<dneighbo> ill be here for another hour or so before i have to run
<jcater> I'm only here about 20 minutes
<dneighbo> jcater will you be back?
<jcater> it'll be an hour, but yes
<jcater> btw
<jcater> I did a fairly complex "diagnostics" script today
<dneighbo>  rofl
<jcater> in honor of my experience last night
<dneighbo> one night of tech support was enough for you eh ":)
<jcater> it will show you all the pythons you have installed and whether each one has the requirements for GNUe
<dneighbo> rofl
<dneighbo> that sounds funny
<jcater> plus checks a few other common pitfalls we've seen
<dneighbo> 'it will show you the python booty you have amassed on your machine'
<kreiszner> what does rofl mean
<dneighbo> rolling on floor laughing
<dneighbo> generally the escalated level of humor goes:
<dneighbo> lol - laugh out loud
<dneighbo> rofl - rolling on floor laughing
<dneighbo> roflmao - rolling on floor laughing my ass off
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<dneighbo> er add
<jcater> well, the first in the list is :)
Action: Yurik is back
<dneighbo> hehe - literally hehe (to the top of the list)
Action: Yurik is back from the editor
Action: dneighbo forgets all the irc'isms
<dneighbo> or online isms we have in our culture here
Action: Yurik is listening Sparks
<kreiszner> are you brave guys up to any helping of a poor lost soul for a little while or do you want to do this later
<dneighbo> lets do it 
<kreiszner> i reboot back in sec and will be in all evening
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<jcater> dneighbo: did you add tcpip_socket = true to /var/lib/pgsql/postgresql.conf?
<dneighbo> jcater um no
Action: dneighbo thwaps self
<dneighbo> bad bad bad bad bad bad bad derek
<jcater> um
<jcater> I need to run pick up my son
<jcater> get him to do that
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> ;)
<jcater> I'll be back on in < hour
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<kreiszner> i back hellow world
Action: Yurik is out to smoke
<dneighbo> hmm try
<dneighbo> locate postgresql.conf
<dneighbo> and tell me what that yields
<kreiszner> /var/lib/pgsql/data/postgresql.conf
<kreiszner> /usr/share/pgsql/postgresql.conf.sample
<dneighbo> ok
Action: Yurik is back
<dneighbo> less /var/lib/pgsql/data/postgresql.conf
Action: Yurik is drinking pepsi...
<kreiszner> all of the lines seem to be commented out
<dneighbo> how many are there?
<dneighbo> better yet
<dneighbo> is there one that says
<dneighbo> tcpip_socket = true
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> tcpip_socket = false
<dneighbo> ?
<kreiszner> #       Connection Parameters
<kreiszner> #
<kreiszner> #tcpip_socket = false
<kreiszner> #ssl = false
<kreiszner> #max_connections = 32 # 1-1024
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> open the file in jed
<dneighbo> un comment
<dneighbo> er
<dneighbo> change
<dneighbo> #tcpip_socket = false
<dneighbo> to read
<dneighbo> tcpip_socket = true
<dneighbo> and save the file
<dneighbo> then do
<dneighbo>  /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql restart
<dneighbo> and paste output here
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]# /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql restart
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]#
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo>  /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql start
<dneighbo> and paste output here
Action: dneighbo thinks your postgres isnt autostarting as it should (but we can address that later)
<dneighbo> kreiszner : btw, sometimes i forget, two tricks for unix in case you didnt know
<dneighbo> a. you can use up and down arrow at bash prompt to select from previous used commands and then can use home and end
<dneighbo> so in the last example
<dneighbo> i would have hit up arrow, then hit end (to go to end of line) back arrowed to the restart and deleted the re and hit enter
<dneighbo> also the ohter life saver
<dneighbo> b. you can 'tab' to auto complete file/direcotry names
<dneighbo> so you can type /home/K<tab> and it will expand to Ken4/ then hit G <tab>
<dneighbo> if more than one 'option' exists it doesn nothing, but if you hit tab a second time it shows you the valid choices
<dneighbo> anyhow, you probably already knew that but if you didnt, its helpful :)
<kreiszner> some of that I new but some of this is new to me
Action: dsmith is back (gone 00:31:25)
<kreiszner> remember I have learned Linux practically in a vacuum
<dneighbo> right, thats why i suggested the hints
<dneighbo> what was out put on :
<dneighbo>  /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql start
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]# /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql restart
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]#
<dneighbo> do it as 
<dneighbo>  /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql start
<dneighbo> i.e. start instead of restart
<dneighbo> and then paste output
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]# /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgresql start
<kreiszner> Starting postgresql service: YPBINDPROC_DOMAIN: Domain not bound
<kreiszner>                                                            [  OK  ]
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]#
<dneighbo> ok cool
<dneighbo> now do
<dneighbo> psql -U admin -h 127.0.0.1 gnue
<dneighbo> and paste output
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]# psql -U admin -h 127.0.0.1 gnue
<kreiszner> Welcome to psql, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.
<kreiszner> Type:  \copyright for distribution terms
<kreiszner>        \h for help with SQL commands
<kreiszner>        \? for help on internal slash commands
<kreiszner>        \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
<kreiszner>        \q to quit
<kreiszner> gnue=#
<dneighbo> ok \q
<dneighbo> then do
<dneighbo> psql -U admin -h localhost gnue
<dneighbo> and paste output
<kreiszner> [root@localhost Ken4]# psql -U admin -h localhost gnue
<kreiszner> Welcome to psql, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.
<kreiszner> Type:  \copyright for distribution terms
<kreiszner>        \h for help with SQL commands
<kreiszner>        \? for help on internal slash commands
<kreiszner>        \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
<kreiszner>        \q to quit
<kreiszner> gnue=#
<dneighbo> \q
<dneighbo> and we win
<dneighbo> we win
Action: dneighbo does happy dance
<dneighbo> ok now go to taht samples dir (i can never remember where it is)
<dneighbo>  /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/ (or something)
<dneighbo> then 'cd track/forms/'
<dneighbo> and do an 'ls' and paste here
<kreiszner> Ill get there
<dneighbo> once there
<dneighbo> do a gfclient address_type.gfd
<dneighbo> and let me know what happens :)
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<kreiszner> I am lost
<kreiszner> [root@localhost samples]# ls
<kreiszner> button        geas              history    location  tests    vendor
<kreiszner> contact.gfd   helloworld2.gfd   intro      po        track    zipcode
<kreiszner> contact.gfd~  helloworld2.gfd~  inventory  simple    trigger
<kreiszner> [root@localhost samples]# pwd
<kreiszner> /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples
<kreiszner> [root@localhost samples]#
<dneighbo> ok 
<dneighbo> 'cd track/forms/'
<dneighbo> then
<dneighbo> 'gfclient address_type.gfd'
<dneighbo> let me know what happens
<kreiszner> gnue window
<kreiszner> user name?
<dneighbo> admin
<dneighbo> leave password blank
<dneighbo> and click ok
<kreiszner> that worked  why?
<dneighbo> you now have a little form?
<dneighbo> why did what work?
<kreiszner> address tupe...
<dneighbo> well it didnt work before because
<kreiszner> are all forms going to have this basic menu structure
<kreiszner> did this thing hang crc
<kreiszner> dneighbo: you out there
<dneighbo> yeah sorry
<dneighbo> give me two seconds 
<dneighbo> ok
<kreiszner> ok
<dneighbo> it didnt work before because postgres wasnt listening on tcp/ip
<kreiszner> I am in contact manager now
<dneighbo> we fixed that and thats why it works now
<dneighbo> all forms will have same basic 'frame' (menu structure)
<dneighbo> but there is something now called navigator
<kreiszner> neat
<dneighbo> where you create your own navigation
<dneighbo> to make an application that has SEVERAL forms
<dneighbo> so the menu might have say a top level menu
<dneighbo> accounting
<dneighbo>   -- invoice
<kreiszner> something like the MS Access watcha ma callit
<dneighbo>   -- purchase order
<dneighbo>    -- fooo
<dneighbo> or whatever
<dneighbo> did you get it see data?
<dneighbo> when you were in the address_type.gfd
<kreiszner> neat I think I am going to like this
<dneighbo> were you able to view the data that was preloaded?
<dneighbo> kreiszner : we hope  you are going to like it :)
<kreiszner> no
<dneighbo> ok close the contact form
<dneighbo> and reopen the address_type.gfd
<kreiszner> should I get out ot contact man
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<dneighbo> yeah
<jcater> 'sup my peeps?
<dneighbo> jcater : we have lift off
<jcater> is this in regards to the accountant working behind you?
<jcater> oh, kreiszner's system
<jcater> ;)
<dneighbo> says it looks like crap, no way he can use it, sorry for taking our time....
<dneighbo> :(
<dneighbo> j/k
<kreiszner> in type Man
<dneighbo> ok there should be an icon that looks like a paper w/ a pencil
<dneighbo> if you mouse over it ('prepare query')
<dneighbo> click that
<kreiszner> k
<dneighbo> then just to the right of it is one that looks like a paper w/ a magnifying glass
<dneighbo> execute query
<dneighbo> click that
<dneighbo> now you should see data in the forms
<dneighbo> and the arrow to left or arrow to right (on tool bar) will let you switch records
<kreiszner> id 1 desc. Unknown
<dneighbo> or the up arrow or down arrow on key board will let you
<dneighbo> kreiszner mmmmmm
<dneighbo> form might be broked
Action: Yurik is steeped in specification :)
<dneighbo> lets do this
<kreiszner> i put in 2 records last time and they are there too
<dneighbo> exit out of the form
<dneighbo> kreiszner oh crap form works :)
<dneighbo> dont exit
<dneighbo> yes i see you are saying the desc=unknown
<dneighbo> i was thinking you were saying you got error message (hahahaha)
<dneighbo> if you want to add more then you simply hit blank paper button (insert)
<kreiszner> there are a total of 5 records including my 2
<dneighbo> or you go to the end of the records (where all fields are blank) and enter more
<dneighbo> when done you press save (the disk)
<dneighbo> its that easy
<dneighbo> you now have a database application
<dneighbo> and if you exit out of this
<dneighbo> then go and launch the contact_manager.gfd
<kreiszner> is it indexed so that id is automatic
<dneighbo> and go to the drop down for address
<dneighbo> you should see all the items you entered in the dropdown screen
<jcater> dude
<dneighbo> you can then use same principles to enter data into the contact manager
<jcater> I'm so pumped
<dneighbo> and save it and get it back
<dneighbo> etc
<dneighbo> next we will show you DESIGNER so you can get REALLY happy :)
<dneighbo> btw: what system do you use currently?
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<dneighbo> jcater what is up?
<jcater> dude
<jcater> since we have a working navigator
<dneighbo> yeah....
<jcater> I have a reason to modularize designer
<dneighbo> ah yes
<dneighbo> kick butt
<dneighbo> im pumped too :)
<jcater> and I started last night
<jcater> and it's going well
<dneighbo> btw: are there docs on navigator?
<jcater> Designer was less of a "hack" than I realized
<dneighbo> if so i plan to make the contact mangager use it
<jcater> dneighbo: basically a sample .gpd file and gncvs --help
<dneighbo> so that you can open the 'management' table stuff from w/in the manager
<jcater> so, not really
<dneighbo> kreiszner you still htere?
Action: dneighbo wonders if he is having a lot of fun and just busy playing or if its eating all his computer resources :)
<dsmith> dneighbo: You are so helpful!
Action: Yurik is out to smoke and think about about security issues
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<jcater> mdean!
<jcater> 'sup dawg?
<dsmith> dneighbo: Remember me messing about with evo and orbit-python and stuff?
<dsmith> Well, I have given up.
<dneighbo> why?
Action: dneighbo is VERY curious about this question cause i have hidden agendas 
Action: Yurik is back
<dsmith> It was just too hard.
Action: Yurik -> xxx.lanl.gov
<dsmith> And I've started using sylpheed.
<jcater> sylpheed?
<dsmith> Ya.  fast email client.
<dsmith> gtk. no gnome.
<dsmith> Sub second starup time.
<dsmith> apt-get install sylpheed   or  apt-get install sylpheed-claws
<dsmith> On sid
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<Yurik> fil_c re
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<dsmith> The evo thing was a kind of experiment to see just how easy it really is to script all this bonobo/corba/whatever from a cold standing start.
<jcater> does it do imap?
<jcater> do you know?
<mdean> wussup y'all?
<dneighbo> sup g
<dsmith> Yes it does, but I'm only using pop3 and a local mbox
<dneighbo> ok running home, jcater can you walk kreiszner through designer?
<dneighbo> kreiszner i see the following as the next steps
<jcater> I can try
Action: jcater is cooking dinner at the moment
<dneighbo> a. get your corel box upgraded to debian and install postgres
<dneighbo> b. convert your access data to postgres
<dneighbo> c. write gnue screens for the data
<dneighbo> we will gladly help you with all the steps
<dneighbo> you are second in the queue behind stu
<dneighbo> but he needs similar things you do
<dneighbo> so they can co exist :)
<dneighbo> i owe the wife some time this weekend, but i hope to jam on some things as well
<dneighbo> bbl
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<kreiszner> jcater: when you have a free moment I am kindof ready for the designer thing. I am also in middle of food prep.
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<jcater> kreiszner: ok... hopefully I can in a few minutes
<kreiszner> take your time
<jcater> dsmith: wow... sylpheed looks like exactly what I've been looking for
<dsmith> jcater: I'm liking it.
<jcater> it's the first gui mail client I've seen outside of Outlook that handles Imap subfolders the way I'd like
<jcater> i.e., it actually shows new mail in the subfolders
<jcater> as basic as that seems, few do that
<jcater> ;)
<nickr> sylpheed is pretty neato.
<dsmith> It's still rough in a lot of areas.
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> but I see a lot of potential
<dsmith> But it's fast!
<jcater> I'm gonna try it at work
<dsmith> And light!
Action: dsmith hates bloat
<dsmith> evo is too bloated
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<dsmith> Besides, it's just like lookOut (or so I hear)
<nickr> evo is neat.
<nickr> If you have the use for a whole PIM
<nickr> windows users jiz when they see it, which is good
<dsmith> I understand.
<dsmith> I dont like things being "just like windows".
<dsmith> We should demand better.
<nickr> evo IS better
Action: dsmith has never used outlook
<dsmith> I nearly died when I heard someone was working on a vb clone
<nickr> heh
<dsmith> Why settle for it? Do better.
<nickr> well, what'd be nice is a generic scripable componant framework that could use any language you want in a 'vb' way
<nickr> so you could have your gnome-basic, but also your python or whatever, from the same gui builder/ide
<dsmith> I like little tools that do one thing well.  Tools that you can snap in and out.
<nickr> the key to vb is that its easy for idjits to build little applets quickly
<dsmith> I don't like all-in-one apps. Wouldn't it be a shame if X and the windowmanager and destop and the xterm were all one piece?
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<dsmith> I like how you can user different window managers under gnome, for example.
<nickr> Yes, but some users still want one stop shopping
<nickr> yea
<nickr> I think unified things like evo are okay.,.. the componants ARE theoretically swapable
<dsmith> For example.  I really really like coldsync.
<dsmith> I think it has the most well thoughtout framework for "conduits".
<nickr> hrm
<dsmith> But does evo use it?  No. Can you? I don't think so.
<dsmith> s/you?/evo?/
<dsmith> gnome-pilot doesn't seem to work very well for me.
<nickr> I think gnome-pilot hasn't got as much attention as it should've
<nickr> but you probably could bridge coldsync to evo
<nickr> evo is very much based on a componant arch
<dsmith> Well, it claims to be.  But I never did figure out how to get at the address book and calendar from python.
<dsmith> I wanted to use coldsync wiht it.
<dsmith> Or just extract certain mettings or whatever.
<nickr> I think its possible, I don't know how though.
<dsmith> I tried.  It's just too many layers in the wrong format to wade thrugh.  All the examples were in c++ and corba. Nothing for scripting.
<dsmith> There is is backend you are supposed to use, but the interface was mostly internal, couldn't really get at it with corba.
<nickr> if it uses corba
<nickr> then you can do it in any language
<nickr> including python
<nickr> especially python
<nickr> corba and python are like peas in a pod
<dsmith> Well, that my my experiment, how easy would it be to do. All I got was confused.
<jcater>  nickr: I think his issue was that it's corba interface was not^H^H^Hpoorly documented
<nickr> jcater: thats a whole nother issue :)
<dsmith> If I had experince with corba and python, and I had experice with c/c++ and bonbo, I could have probably made the translations, but nothing seemed to match.
<dsmith> Now you guys have got me going again.
<nickr> Hrm, is there any documentation about the interfaces at all?
<nickr> like IDLs or something?
<dsmith> Well, some, but it was more for embedding high level pices into your app.  Like embedded a caledar widget, or an html editor into your browser.
<nickr> orm
<nickr> erm
<dsmith> Couldn't find much on sucking data out of the calendars database.
<nickr> annoying.
<nickr> this seems fundimental to me
<nickr> they should be well defined. :P
<nickr> they make vague reference to that being available though
<dsmith> There ought be be a nice example.  import these modules, create this instance, and iterate over the addressbook entries with these methods.
<nickr> I'll figure it out :)
<dsmith> I was asking all over the place.  Got the most help here.
<dsmith> I'm still interested, my boss really like evo.  I'm thinking of ways to automate some of what we do with ot.
<fil_c> what do you do with outlook?
<dsmith> don't use outlook.
<dsmith> My main mailer has been netscape for years.
<dsmith> Cell phones.  I wrote a bit of python to mail a name/number/emailaddr in special format to our cell phones.  It' the only way to "download" names into it.
<dsmith> Thought it would be really cool to rip through an evo addr book and update our phones.
<nickr> http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/evolution/calendar/idl/evolution-calendar.idl
<nickr> I'm still trying to figure out how it works :)
<nickr> but I see the basic object
<nickr> they call each 'event' in the  calendar a componant
<nickr> seems a little confusing
<dsmith> I have /usr/share/idl/evolution-calendar.idl and /usr/share/idl/addressbook.idl from the evolution-dev .deb
<nickr> indeed
<nickr> those and the correct 'camel' URIs are the only things you need to get any info from evolution you want, I think
<nickr> I think :)
<jcater> kreiszner: you still here?
<kreiszner> jcater: yes
<jcater> shall we begin?
<kreiszner> y
<dsmith> "and so it begins"
<jcater> be forewarned: I'm not a teacher by profession for a reason :)
<nickr> there can be only one
<kreiszner> Can you give me a brief overview of what the designer does and how it does it
<jcater> ok
<jcater> Designer 0.1.0 is our first hack at a visual design environment for GNUe Forms
<jcater> eventually, it will handle more than just Forms
<jcater> (that's actually my current focus this wee)
<jcater> wee=week
<jcater> have you opened a form with designer yet?
<kreiszner> How does it access the table info in posgres
<jcater> as of that version, Designer could only "peek" into the table structure
<kreiszner> I have Contact Manager open but not in designer at least I think I don't
<jcater> of Postgres when using "Wizards", an automatic method of generating forms
<jcater> in the main design session
<jcater> you tell Designer what "text box" 
<jcater> is associated with what postgres "field"
<jcater> and Designer takes your word for it. 
<jcater> I'm in the process of adding drag-and-drop support
<jcater> so it shows you the tables in a side window
<jcater> and all the fields of that table
<kreiszner> if you put in wrong field I presume it does nothing or something bad
<jcater> and you can drag a field onto your design canvas
<nickr> jcater: it'd also be neat if you could as your typing in the name of the field have tab completion. :-)
<jcater> nickr: this is only 0.1.0
<jcater> ;)
<nickr> heheh
<jcater> kreiszner: Designer will not notice that the field is wrong
<jcater> as it currently doesn't do checking
<jcater> but
<jcater> when you open the form in GNUe Forms (to run it)
<jcater> the form will close with an error message
<kreiszner> does the error message tell you anything
<jcater> it's still very much a young tool, 
<jcater> but it's useful
<jcater> it would tell you that the field doesn't exist, IIRC
<jcater> actually, forms simply forwards to you the error message that the database backend gave it
<kreiszner> that's good enough
<jcater> I currently use Oracle
<jcater> and it says Invalid Field Name (or such)
<jcater> I think postgres does the same
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> can you hang on...
<jcater> have to put my son to bed
<kreiszner> I will hang on thats more important. you want me to get out of the form I am in and back to terminal
<jcater> yes
<jcater> which form does derek have you working with?
<jcater> ok, I'm back
<jcater> he was getting a little too cranky :)
<jcater> you have some experience with databases, correct?
<jcater> As in, you are familiar with tables, columns (or fields), rows, etc...
<jcater> Before opening designer, let me go into some of our terminology
<jcater> When creating a data-aware form (and any form accessing data from a database is data-aware)
<jcater> the most basic object is a Data Source
<kreiszner> I use MS Access and I use the apple database on a II GS
<jcater> ok
<jcater> I just wanted to make sure
<jcater> as assumptions can be a bad thing
<jcater> typically, a datasource corresponds to a table
<jcater> i.e., when you define a datasource, you are telling form that it will use a table
<jcater> if your form references 3 different tables, then odds are you will have 3 different datasources.
<kreiszner> do you use sql statements
<jcater> we try to avoid directly using sql statements when designing forms as 
<jcater> they tend to not be very portable
<jcater> however, 
<jcater> forms constructs its own sql statements behind the scenes
<jcater> you tell forms what table you will be accessing
<jcater> and you tell it what fields will be displayed
<jcater> to populate the form, it will issue a select statement based on that information
<jcater> also, if you "Enter a Query" (I'm not sure if derek showed you that yet)
<jcater> forms will construct a "where clause" based on that
<jcater> in other words, we try to make it transparent to both the developer and end-user
<jcater> There are 3 basic data elements in forms...
<jcater> 1. The data source (which we discussed earlier).. These point to tables.
<jcater> 2. Blocks -- these basically control the displaying of data sources.  In other words, you can use a block to tell forms to display 10 rows from the data source at a time
<jcater> 2. Entries -- These define the text fields, combo boxes, and check boxes.
<jcater> Entries usually point back to a field in the table
<jcater> err, that was 3. Entries
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> what form was derek having you open in gfclient?
<jcater> we will open it in designer now
Action: jcater hopes everyone isn't falling asleep :)
<kreiszner> where is the info for the  multiple type address info in Contact Manager stored
Action: fil_c is listening intently
Action: dsmith is enjoying this
<kreiszner> I opened Contact manager
<jcater> ah
<jcater> he had you looking at a complex one :)
Action: jcater curses in derek's direction
<jcater> let me open that form and reacquant myself
<kreiszner> we first looked at the address.type  I thing two fields
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<jcater> ok
<jcater> he has a table called address_type
<jcater> and there is a datasource (dtsrcAddressType) that points to this table
<jcater> when using Combo Boxes, you have to specify a
<jcater> datasource that will be used to populate it
<jcater> if you type 
<derek> dont curse me
<derek> i opened the simple one
<derek> he found the complex one on his own :)
<kreiszner> now now
<jcater> gfdesigner contact_manager.gfd
<fil_c> are you looking at GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/contact.gfd ?
<jcater> samples/track/forms/contact_manager.gfd
<fil_c> obviously not
<jcater> if you type 
<jcater> samples/track/forms/contact_manager.gfd
<jcater> this will open the contact manaher in Designer
<jcater> the first thing you should see is a window with a tree on the left and a gridded area on the right
<kreiszner> from what folder shoul I type this
<jcater> samples/track/forms/
<jcater> the same folder that you type gfclient contact_manager.gfd
<kreiszner> [root@localhost forms]# samples/track/forms/contact_manager.gfd
<kreiszner> bash: samples/track/forms/contact_manager.gfd: No such file or directory
<jcater> type 
<jcater> pwd
<kreiszner> [root@localhost forms]# ls
<kreiszner> address_type.gfd       assignment_status.gfd~  email_type.gfd   phone_type.gfd~
<kreiszner> address_type.gfd~      contact_manager.gfd     email_type.gfd~
<kreiszner> assignment_status.gfd  contact_manager.gfd~    phone_type.gfd
<kreiszner> [root@localhost forms]# pwd
<kreiszner> /home/Ken4/GNUe-Forms-0.1.0/samples/track/forms
<kreiszner> [root@localhost forms]#
<jcater> ok, you are already in that folder
<jcater> oops
<jcater> I just looked back and realized what I had you type
<jcater> sigh... sometimes cut-n-paste can get you in trouble
<jcater> type
<jcater> gfdesigner contact_manager.gfd
<jcater> gfclient is the run-time component (i.e., it "runs" the form)
<jcater> gfdesigner is the designing/development component
<jcater> did that work?
<kreiszner> [root@localhost forms]# gfdesigner contact_manager.gfd
<kreiszner> bash: gfdesigner: command not found
<jcater> derek: did you take him through installing designer?
<fil_c> Do you mind if I become the second pupil as well?
<jcater> sure
<fil_c> I'm following along...
<fil_c> ... but get the following errors:
<fil_c> [ukpgc@flop forms]$ gfdesigner contact_manager.gfd
<fil_c> Traceback (innermost last):
<fil_c>   File "/usr/local/bin/gfdesigner", line 39, in ?
<fil_c>     from  gnue.designer.GFDesigner import *
<fil_c>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/GFDesigner.py", line 30, in ?
<fil_c>     from wxPython.wx import *
<fil_c> ImportError: No module named wxPython.wx
<jcater> kreiszner: we need to install designer
<jcater> fil_c: does "gfclient contact_manager.gfd" give you the same error message?
<jcater> kreiszner: type the following
<derek> jcater: um nope
<jcater> cd ~/GNUe-Designer-0.1.0
<derek> i forgot he didnt grab it in first pass
<derek> then i had him untar it but not install it
<derek> iirc
<jcater> (the ~ means your Home directory... that's a handy shortcut in linux)
<jcater> then type: 
<jcater> python2.1 setup.py install
<derek> fil_c: you need to download wx lib
<derek> fil_c: what distro you on?
<jcater> kreiszner: hopefully, you will see a lot of "copying" and "building" going on
<fil_c> derek: I've got wxlib.  Because I can get simple clients up... (let me just check again)
<derek> fil_c: you mean you have forms working?
<derek> but now want designer to work?
<derek> do you have more than one version of python installed?
<jcater> fil_c: can you do the following: 
<jcater> fil_c: head -n1 /usr/local/bin/gfclient
<jcater> fil_c: and 
<derek> jcater: what do you think of this:
<jcater> fil_c: head -n1 /usr/local/bin/gfdesigner
<jcater> fil_c: do those two outputs match¿?
<derek> having the traceback auto dump the version of python and all versions of the libs
<fil_c> well simple forms work... e.g. helloworld2.gfd , but contact_manager.gfd gave the error "connections file does not contain a definition for gnue"
<jcater> fil_c: ok
<kreiszner> the only thing I have withdesigner is GNUe-Designer-0.1.0-debug.exe
<jcater> fil_c: that means forms is definitely working
<jcater> kreiszner: are you on Windows or Linux?
<derek> fil_c: the connections.conf is a diff issue
<jcater> fil_c: can you do the two "head" commands for me?
<derek> forms works if you get helloworld to run (i.e. libwx and pyxml are sound)
<derek> i assume gfdesigner
<fil_c> gfclient: #!/usr/bin/env python2
<kreiszner> RedHat 7.2
<derek> needs to point to python2
<derek> and its currently pointing to python
<derek> instead
<kreiszner> I must have downloaded the wrong thing.
<derek> jcater: we need to get that fixed as dual python ality is kicking our arse :)
<derek> kreiszner: yip downloaded wrong one :)
<jcater> derek: no sh*t
<fil_c> dfdesigner: #!/usr/bin/env python  - but I've only just installed that... now changed to python2
<derek> ok
<derek> now try gfdesigner
<jcater> fil_c: what platform are you on?
<derek> you dont need to give a form or anything
<derek> and see if opens
<fil_c> jcater: linux - redhat 7.2(ish)
<jcater> ok
<jcater> we are definitely having install issues w/RedHat
<derek> jcater: yip
<jcater> I need to install it on another partition
<derek> i was bad
<derek> as i didnt catch them
<derek> as i did EVERYTHING from source
<derek> including python
<derek> sigh....
<fil_c> derek: yep... designer now opens
<derek> rock
<derek> you want to get other forms to work?
<derek> like the contact manager?
<fil_c> very impressive
<jcater> kreiszner: you need GNUe-Designer-0.1.0.tar.gz 
<jcater> from http://www.gnuenterprise.org/download.php?op=viewsdownload&sid=5&orderby=dateD
<derek> figure if we are in support mode we should get as many folks as possible
<derek> functional as possible
<jcater> fil_c: wait until you see 0.1.1
<jcater> ;)
<derek> 0.1.1 or 0.3.0
<derek> i still think you and jamest need to get better about releasing :)
<jcater> well, to avoid confusiong, 
<jcater> we wanted to keep all 0.1.x series tools compatable
<jcater> i.e., Designer 0.1.x will work with Forms 0.1.x
<jcater> at least in the beginning
<derek> nevermind
<fil_c> eek... designer has just wiped out helloworld2.gfd when it had a problem saving a change i'd made to the trigger on username
<derek> bbs
<jcater> from the Designer README
<jcater>   ******************************************************
<jcater>   WARNING: GNUe Designer 0.1.0 is not perfect code.
<jcater>   Odds are, it will crash on you at some point (many
<jcater>   points?), so if using on production forms, work from
<jcater>   a copy and save often.  See BUGS for known issues.
<jcater>   ******************************************************
<jcater> that's there for a reason :)
<jcater> triggers are an issue
<jcater> I was looking at that this past weekend
<fil_c> oakey-doakely... off to read the docs
<kreiszner> is there a prob
<kreiszner> warning: install: modules installed to '/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/', which is not in Python's module search path (sys.path) -- you'll have to change the search path yourself
<kreiszner> [root@localhost GNUe-Designer-0.1.0]#
<fil_c> I got that too kreiszner
<kreiszner> [root@localhost forms]# gfdesigner contact_manager.gfd
<kreiszner> Traceback (innermost last):
<kreiszner>   File "/usr/local/bin/gfdesigner", line 39, in ?
<kreiszner>     from  gnue.designer.GFDesigner import *
<kreiszner>   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/designer/GFDesigner.py", line 30, in ?
<kreiszner>     from wxPython.wx import *
<kreiszner> ImportError: No module named wxPython.wx
Action: fil_c must get some sleep 3.21AM here... :(  Thank you for your help jcater and derek
<fil_c> kreiszner: That's exactly the same error message as I got
<fil_c> kreiszner: open /usr/local/bin/gfdesigner and change the first line to start python2 not python
<kreiszner> k
Action: fil_c must learn python
<fil_c> kreiszner: can you now start gfdesigner?
<kreiszner> just sec
<kreiszner> that did it
<fil_c> cool... thank derek.  I'm off to bed.  Talk to you all later.
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<dsmith> Well, nickr got me going on the evo <-> python thing again.
<nickr> <- evil
<jcater> kreiszner: sorry for this silent spell... I just got unexpected company
<jcater> sigh
<kreiszner> ok I have been examining form and my 1st q is how is the data stored
<kreiszner> for address when there are multiple address types
<jcater> the "Address" area of the screen is a single block
<jcater> even though the block only displays one record on the screen at a time,
<jcater> it can hold multiple records
<jcater> that is what the < and > records are for
<jcater> err, < and > buttons
<kreiszner> I mean how is it stored in the postgres db in multiple tables or what
<jcater> yes
<jcater> each block corresponds to a table
<kreiszner> then if you have a home address and a work address then there are two tables
<jcater> address
<jcater> address_type
<jcater> assignment_status
<jcater> email
<jcater> email_type
<jcater> person
<jcater> phone
<jcater> phone_type
<jcater> todo
<jcater> history
<jcater> no
<jcater> there would be two records in the address table
<kreiszner> then there is some kind of sql going on in the backgroud or at least relational arangement
<jcater> yes
<kreiszner> 2. How do you create a boxes and buttons
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<jcater> for that arrangement, there is a PERSON table which contains a person's basic information and an id
<chillywilly> where's da masta?
<jcater> and then there are PHONE, EMAIL, ADDRESS tables that link back to the PERSON table
<jcater> so it's a basic relational arrangement
<chillywilly> ***logs*** I respect your opinion too, derek ***logs***
<jcater> yes, we use SQL for the backend
<chillywilly> and even jc's ;)
<jcater> da masta is spending time with da grand-masta
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> wifeypoo?
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> gotcha
<jcater> grand masta == masta's masta
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> well I should go watht he new panet of the apes since we rented it form the video store
<chillywilly> planet
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> video store plant?
<jcater> err, never mind
<jcater> kreiszner: boxes are nothing more than decoration
<jcater> i.e., screen eye candy
<jcater> they serve no purpose
<jcater> but to create them, 
<chillywilly> s/panet/planet
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> right-click on the gridded layout area
<chillywilly> not video store planet
<chillywilly> silly jc
<jcater> and select Block -> New -> Box
<jcater> or is it Page -> New -> Box
<jcater> I forget
<jcater> you can create a button the same way
<jcater> however a button can be associated with a "trigger"
<jcater> which is a piece of python code
<jcater> I'd stick with basic forms (boxes, labels, and entries) 
<jcater> and learn how that works
<jcater> before digging into buttons and triggers
<jcater> single forms like address_type.gfd don't use either
<jcater> single=simple
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<kreiszner> that menu takes forever to appear after you right click
<dsmith> forever is > 3 seconds.
<kreiszner> yes
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well, we still have a few issues to iron out
<kreiszner> It could partly be that this RH 7.2 box has everything that could be installed from their disks
<kreiszner> back in 5-10min my mother needs to be put to bed
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<kreiszner> jcater: how do I get the promt backin the console window I accidentall closed the formsdesigner with the close command and I dont get prompt
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> press Ctrl+\
<jcater> for some reason, the process is still running
<kreiszner> that did it
<jcater> we still have some bugs to work out :)
<kreiszner> When MS Access first came out MS had the audacity to chg. $100 for a program that had bugs everywhere and much functionality missing so don't feel badly
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<kreiszner> they even charged for a bug fix and of course it wasn't till the next release that it was anything like stable
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<thalakan> Anybody home?
<thalakan> Got some questions.
<jcater> thalakan: fire away
<jcater> kreiszner: thanks
<jcater> kreiszner: the way I look at it, this is only our second release period
<thalakan> What's n-tier mean?
<jcater> i.e., maintenance or primary version
<jcater> we did 0.0.1 (which was a hack I did for my company)
<jcater> then 0.1.0 was a little more polished
<jcater> thalakan: with respect to GNUe
<thalakan> Yup
<jcater> we serve data from database
<jcater> in a 2-tier environment
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<jcater> the programs would communicate directly with the database backend
<jcater> with n-tier, that means the programs communicate with some sort of middleware
<jcater> that communicates with the database backend
<thalakan> In GNUe GEAS is the middleware?
<jcater> both have their advantages and disadvantages
<thalakan> Translates GEAS clients into database calls?
<jcater> yes it is
<jcater> correct
<thalakan> I don't understand the benefits of that approach.
<jcater> well
<jcater> let me first say, I'm a fan of 2-tier
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> there are advantages to n-tier
<jcater> GEAS will eventually provide caching and 
<jcater> load balancing
<jcater> plus GEAS can contain code that implements "business logic"
<thalakan> Oh, so GEAS is like a content switch in that case
<jcater> I'm not sure what you mean, but it sounds good :)
<jcater> one of the downfalls to a 2-tier approach
<thalakan> Ah, then you don't have to trust the client because GEAS enforces security policy outside of the desktop
<thalakan> I get it
<jcater> is that the business logic either has to be 
<thalakan> And you get database-independent data validation
<jcater> embedded in the database (i.e., database-level triggers)
<jcater> or it has to be in the client
<jcater> thalakan: yes
<thalakan> which is difficult to do portably
<jcater> that is one advantage
<thalakan> k
<thalakan> what's the story for web-based portal stuff for GNUe?
<thalakan> I am totally overengineering my invoice system and thought that I should look into GNUe instead of reinventing the wheel
<jcater> we do have a web client for our forms package
<thalakan> One thing I want is a portal for my customers to file tickets and order stuff as well as get the status of the stuff they've bought
<jcater> it is fairly recent and I haven't used
<jcater> it, but we do have support
<thalakan> debian package available?
<jcater> I believe GEAS is in debian sid
<thalakan> fark
<thalakan> not on testing
<jcater> we actually recruited a package maintainer today
<jcater> but it takes like 10 days to be approved
<jcater> so at the moment, no we don't
<thalakan> what's the web server stuff written in?
<thalakan> I'm using mason for my project
<jcater> the web server uses webware
<jcater> (webware.sf.net)
<jcater> I was looking into mason for a project at my office
<jcater> do you like mason?
<thalakan> Ah
<thalakan> Yeah, mason's pretty good if you know Perl
<thalakan> My Perl is way better than my python, so I'm kind of unhappy that GNUe uses Python, but I suppose I'd have had to use it eventually, so it's all good
<jcater> I used to be a big fan of perl
<jcater> but after a while, my code quickly became unmaintainable
<jcater> we like python
<thalakan> What's up with this regex stuff taking 5 lines of code?
<thalakan> plus overhead?  Am I doing stuff inefficiently?
<jcater> but feel all languages have their pros and cons
<jcater> overhead?
<jcater> I'm not sure what you're doing
<thalakan> Import the regex module and compile the expressions, etc etc
<thalakan> I just want to do the python equivilent of Perl's while(<>) { if($_ =~ /^abc(def)ghi$/) { print $1; } }
<thalakan> In python that's like 50 lines
<thalakan> How would a native speaker do it?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> you caught me at a bad time :)
<jcater> I probably wouldn't use regex to do that in python
<thalakan> ?
<jcater> like I said, all languages have pros and cons
<jcater> and perl's pro is definitely its native regex
<jcater> I'm not sure why it'd take 50 lines though
<jcater> one like to import regex
<jcater> one like to compile a regex string
<jcater> (which btw makes it go much faster)
<jcater> and a while/if/print line
<thalakan> Yeah, but then you have to create a class representing the lines and then a class representing the data you're getting out of it...
<jcater> seems like 5 lines to me
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> no, I think you are going overboard
<jcater> this isn't java
<jcater> you don't have to have a class for everything
<thalakan> That's what some python people tell me
<thalakan> Ok, so that behavior is not set in stone
<thalakan> That's what scared me off
<jcater> oh, no
<jcater> not at all
<jcater> I've written plenty of python without a single class
<nickr> you don't techinically have to compile the regexp
<nickr> import re
<nickr> re.match(pattern, string)
<jcater> I honestly have only used regex two or 3 times in python
<thalakan> K
<thalakan> Where can I get the web interface thingie?
<thalakan> It doesn't seem to be in the download section of the site
<jcater> eek
<jcater> I'm not sure
<jcater> it's very recent
<thalakan> K
<jcater> as in, not in cvs yet
<thalakan> What about CVS access to the reports module?
<thalakan> I want to screw with it
<thalakan> Need report generation for receipts and invoices
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=2
<jcater> we haven't done an official release on it yet as we are still polishing it off
<thalakan> What output formats will it support?
<jcater> natively, it spits out an XML format
<jcater> that will be transformed into
<thalakan> XSLT?
<jcater> PS/PDF/RTF/HTML/
<jcater> yes
<jcater> Spreadsheet, etc
<thalakan> Hmm
<jcater> I need to run for a little bit
<thalakan> What works now?
<thalakan> k
Nick change: jcater -> jcAway
<thalakan> anybody else here?
<nickr> I'm still here
<dsmith> Well, I am, but I'm here to learn stuff too.
<dsmith> derek: You awake?
<thalakan> So now the forms package is saying that it can't find a module, and the install script didn't copy the sample .cfg file to /usr/local/gnue/etc...
<thalakan> Actually, I think I met derek
<thalakan> I do work with bayonne for OST
<thalakan> I just need some enterprise crap to manage my customer data and $$$ for my personal consulting business
<thalakan> So my forms install doesn't work...
<thalakan> Hey!  SO MY FORMS INSTALL DOESN'T WORK...
Action: thalakan starts running around banging trash can lids together screaming GNUE FORMS 0.1.0 IS B0RKED BORKED SAVE YOUR CHILDREN
<thalakan> Man, what do I have to do to get some attention around here?
Action: thalakan thinks
Action: thalakan engages in idle facepainting
--- Sat Jan 12 2002