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<ajmitch> hi reinhard
<reinhard> hello ajmitch
<reinhard> and all
<ajmitch> brb
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<holsch> Question: is anybody caring for the UIcurses.py file?  It's in a sad state ...
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<holsch> I mean: it doesn't even display a super-simple form with just a static text
<holsch> if it would, I could try and add other stuff, but so I'm hosed ...
<reinhard> holsch: UIcurses was done by a guy named arno
<reinhard> he had to stop because he got seriosly ill iirc
<reinhard> meanwhile a lot in forms has changed and so the UIcurses.py is no longer compatible with the rest i guess
<reinhard> jamest would be the right man to talk about this
<holsch> reinhard: thanks
<holsch> jamest: you listening?
<holsch> Ups, he's been idle for 34 hours ...
<reinhard> he stays logged in all the time
<reinhard> he usually gets up around 14:00 CET
<holsch> reinhard: I'd love to have even a minimal UIcurses that lacks almost all widgets
<holsch> reinhard: so that I can show a demo to my boss (you know, we are the people
<holsch> reinhard: with the mobile data terminals)
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> i understand
<reinhard> a lot of people in this project want curses
<reinhard> me too btw
<reinhard> :)
<holsch> :-)
<reinhard> but noone had the time till now
<holsch> I tried for 4 hours to understand enought of python and UI<whatever> to get something running
<holsch> but to no avail.
<holsch> Maybe even an totally empty UIskeleton.py would help. In that case I would probably try to
<holsch> create a UInewt.py (I like newt much more than curses)
<holsch> The problem is that python-newt currently only exists for python 1.5 ...
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> and forms _needs_ 2.0 at least
<holsch> derek: if you read this in the log: I can help you with SAP DB (adding tables etc)
<holsch> derek: i may be online at 19:00 met
<holsch> (that's utc-1 i think)
<derek> hi holsch
<derek> unfortunately i dont have sap db here only at work
<derek> as to UIskeleton.py thast a good idea
<derek> if python newt is maintained you could probably encourage them to get a 2.x version
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<reinhard> derek: is today a public holiday in the u.s.?
<holsch> derek: python newt is from Red Hat. I had usually bad experience with them, e.g. it was
<holsch> hard to get something out of them after filing a bug report to bigzilla.
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<holsch> jamest: your date is wrong, e.g. in forms/NEWS it says 19-Jan-2001
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<derek> reinhard: yes and no
<derek> it is a holiday 'martin luther king jr day'
<derek> but very few 'businesses' celebrate it
<derek> mostly only government and banks
<derek> holsch: i generally have a good rapore w/ red hat
<derek> do you know who maintains it?
<derek> i.e. if its out of the rhad labs you have to talk to right people :)
<derek> holsch: have you tried it w/ python2?
<holsch> derek: redhat: my experience is only from reporting bugs to their bugzilla
<holsch> derek: not from rhlabs projects
<holsch> derek: I have only seen the RPMs for RH 7.2 and the *.deb, I did not download the source and
<holsch> derek: made my own RPM/DEB.
<holsch> but the rpms/debs have python1.5 as depency
<derek> they might have 1.5 as a dep
<derek> but what if you over ride that?
<holsch> derek: I'll try this this evening at home. Or I may even download the source from rhlabs.
<derek> i cant even find the home page for it
<derek> basically i would install it
<derek> regardless of dependency
<derek> ah smack
<derek> never mind
Action: derek has kids most of day so i will be useless
Action: derek needs to pickup new mb
<holsch> derek: Just search for the "newt" homepage. Thy python stuff in in the normal newt-rpm e.g. in
<holsch> newt-0.50.33-1.i386.rpm
<holsch> yes, it's called "snack"
<holsch> It's easier to program. However, I don't know if it can be used event-driven (I guess
<holsch> that forms needs some way to be event-driven)
<derek> um forms has its own events system
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<holsch> Ah, http://packages.debian.org/unstable/interpreters/python-newt.html, talks about python >= 2.1 < 2.2 dep
<derek> holsch: would be cool to offer 3 diff curses modes :)
<derek> as originally we were offering pyncurses (whose maintainer actually worked on gnue for a bit)
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<derek> then we switched to curses that comes w/ python
<holsch> derek: it would be cool to have one WORKING curses modes
<holsch> derek: btw, newt doesn't use curses but slang
<derek> then jcater fudged up the cvs tree and no one wanted to go and work on it anymore, cause you 'cant' keep up with jcater :)
<derek> so to offer newt version would be sweet
<derek> if got all three up and moving
<derek> it woudl REALLY show the power of gnue
<derek> yeah we have 'character based' forms
<derek> which style you want? curses, pyncurses or newt?
<derek> ;)
<holsch> derek: it's really funny. Forms are designed for character based terms (i.e. absolute coordinates,
<holsch> ) but they don't run on them ...
<derek> holsch: to a large degree that was on purpose
<derek> they did
<derek> i promise they did
<derek> in fact if you grab an old release from the website it will work with curses
<holsch> derek: I was a discussion on this, but forms without a layout manager just suffer as soon as
<holsch> derek: it comes to i18n. Some languages use lots of more characters than english ... :-(
<derek> holsch: ?
<holsch> derek: but I'm not the first to recognize this ...  :-)
<derek> i dont think that layout manager is that huge of deal personally
<derek> nice to have sure
<derek> but i think you could have a kick ass product that is fully functional w/o it
<holsch> derek: do you know a foreign language?  If you do, you would understand why it would be helpful.
<holsch> derek: functionally you can have a kick ass product, totally agreed.
<derek> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/inventory_curses.jpg
<holsch> derek: it will just either look ugly or be uncomprehensible
<derek> is an old curses form
<derek> holsch: oui, je parle francais aussi.
<derek> holsch: point is you have the source
<derek> if it looked horrid in your language w/ a little work you could fix it :)
<holsch> holsch: The problem is that many english words are short, but they are long in hungarian or german and
<derek> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/inventory.jpg
<holsch> s/holsch/derek/
<holsch> derek: probably in other languages
<derek> is that same form as (inventory_curses.jpg) only for gtk
<holsch> derek: sometimes it's just some letters e.g. "age" -> "Alter", sometimes it can be lots of characters.
<derek> holsch: easy answer
<derek> speak english :)
<holsch> derek: You imperialist
Action: holsch smiles
<holsch> those packet shufflers in the warehouse usually speak turkish and have enought problems with german ... :-)
<derek> rofl
<derek> how about we comprimise
<derek> the americans start using the metric system
<derek> and everyone else starts using english
<derek> fair?
<holsch> derek: or we all use esperanto as language  :-)
<derek> um, no :)
<derek> jcater: i have a file here called jcater.ogg 
<derek> do i even want to know what it is?
<holsch> It's some music or sound encoded with the Ogg/Vorbis stuff (similar to MP3)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> I remember that
<jcater> "jcater: I choose you"
<jcater> in your best pokemon voice
<holsch> derek: by the way, there are lot's of americanisms in your forms, e.g. "middle name" or "state".
<holsch> Sorry,not in your forms. In the pictures in your directory.
<holsch> derek: hopefully the phone-numbers are free form and no longer ### ### #### ...
<derek> holsch: yes and no
<derek> we havent done anything 'official'
<derek> so stuff you see in my directory is [playing]
<derek> i.e. we have forms in place a quite a few shops
<derek> but they are using the tools to make their applications
<derek> which is fine
<derek> i suspect we will do some of that too
<derek> the 'official' stuff
<derek> will be far more non specific to locale
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/sc.html
<derek> should be the specs for that stuff
<holsch> Any, I call it a day (at least at work). See you later.
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<derek> jcater: downloaded that ogg
<derek> man thats too funny
<derek> kids fussing, must go for a bit
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<holsch> jcater: you're alive?
<jcater> somewhat
<holsch> :)
<holsch> I've saw in the cvs log that you was the last to modify UIcurses.py ...
<jcater> it's quite possible
<jcater> I'm in the process of abstracting the "input handling" out of UIwxpython
<jcater> and trying to get curses working again
<jcater> (back up to speed, per se)
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<neilt> The Calling	12:29	Santana	Supernatural	Rock
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<derek> neilt: ok
Action: derek is installing new shelves in my office, (playing carpenter & now painter)
<derek> fun fun fun
<ajmitch> sounds fun
Action: mdean wonders why derek would upgrade office instead of DCL...
Action: jcater wishes his office did MLK day
<derek> mdean: um you might hit 'harder' than my wife, but
<derek> a. she is within hitting distance
<derek> b. she believe in quantity over quality
<ajmitch> ah, DCL
<derek> plus if  i worked on DCL it would turn into Double Clobber to my Lobe (as in frontal lobe)
<mdean> or Double Cleaver Lobotomy
<derek> waiting for paint to dry, if i could sit 'at my desk'
<derek> in stead of on boxes in awkward position i would work on service_request.gfd while i waited for first coat to dry
<jcater> dudes
<derek> hopefully this will win me some MUCH needed points 
<jcater> as of 10 minutes ago
<jcater> designer fully supports drag and drop schema introspection
<derek> cool
<jcater> drag a table to the form, and a datasource and block is created
<mdean> jcater: that is a tasty treat!
<ajmitch> excellent
<jcater> drag fileds to the form, and a datasource, block, fields, and labels are created
<jcater> drag a donut to jcater, and a few pounds are created
<jcater> see, I've been busy
<jcater> ;)
<ajmitch> hehe
<derek> rofl
<derek> what if i drag a cow to jcater?
<derek> does it convert 'food processing' on the fly and turn it into steak and hamburger
<jcater> The Cow says, "Moo"
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<neilt> We're Ready	3:58	Boston	Third Stage	Rock
<chillywilly> *sigh*
Action: chillywilly is so sick of the resident BSD troll on the MLUG list
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<derek> chillywilly: would that be resident BSD demon?
<derek> not troll?
<chillywilly> hehe, yea
<chillywilly> dude
<chillywilly> RedHat is going to sell out to AOL?
<chillywilly> gah
<chillywilly> that is really damn depressing
<ajmitch> you think so?
<jcater> I'm rather excited
<ajmitch> what facts are there about these talks?
<chillywilly> why?
<jcater> and sad at the same time
<jcater> I'm excited re the reasoning
<chillywilly> why would ppl make them up?
<chillywilly> they want to implement copy protection mechanisms though
<ajmitch> most of what i've read has been rumours
<chillywilly> that's not very exciting to me
<jcater> I'm sad because TW is a worse monopoly than MS
<jcater> chillywilly: nah
<jcater> I doubt that's the goal
<jcater> seriously doubt it
<chillywilly> well don't you think this signifies that you just cannot have a successful OS/FS company?
<jcater> dude
<jcater> if AOL TW wants to buy you out, 
<chillywilly> don't even say it
<jcater> I don't think that signifies an unsuccessful company
<jcater> by any stretch of the imagination
<chillywilly> I suppose not
<jcater> btw, I'm torn between being excited and saddened
<chillywilly> still I can't stand TW and more than I can stand M$
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> s/and/any
<jcater> nope
<jcater> but if anyone can put linux on the desktops of america, it'll be AOL
<chillywilly> true
<chillywilly> it would be cool if AOL software ran on GNU/Linux
<chillywilly> maybe more ppl would choose it
<jcater> lol
<jcater> I use AIM on linux
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> why?
<chillywilly> there's Free alternatives ;)
<chillywilly> anyway, I don't mena stupid AIM
<chillywilly> I am talking the browser/email/whatever thingy
<jcater> um, cause they wouldn't work well w/aol's server
<chillywilly> yes they do
<jcater> well, lemme rephrase...
<jcater> I tried all the free alternatives and they wouldn't connect w/my screen name
<jcater> I downloaded AIM and
<jcater> guess what
<jcater> it did
<jcater> so guess which I use?
Action: chillywilly uses gaim
Action: chillywilly is using it right now to talk to his buddy running windows AIM
<chillywilly> everybuddy also work for me
<chillywilly> and gabber
<chillywilly> if I could not get them to connect I would not use IM then ;)
<jcater> dude... whatever
<jcater> my only point is the others didn't work and their's did
<chillywilly> that's exactly what i would do
<jcater> for whatever reason
<jcater> probably a user error
<chillywilly> I am not trying to argue about this
<chillywilly> do whatever you want
<chillywilly> anyway, wtf were we talking about?
<chillywilly> oh yea
<chillywilly> redhat + AOL
<chillywilly> how about this proposition
<chillywilly> don't you think it i sunfair for redhat ppl to get rich now off of the community's work? Are they going to share some of that cash with others who they do not employ?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> nobody ever replies to our LT links
<chillywilly> the GNUe KC story
<ajmitch> why would they?
<ajmitch> it's nothing controversial ;)
<chillywilly> because they talk about everything else
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<chillywilly> here's something else to chew on, if all these ppl who want to fight against M$ start using and supporting GNU/Linux is this always a good thing?
<jcater> um, sure
<chillywilly> well now we have IBM, Sun (to some degree), and now possibly AOL
<chillywilly> do we wan to trade one monopoly for another?
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<chillywilly> some yahoo is saying ti would be great if AOL and IBM merged
<chillywilly> howdy reinhard
<reinhard> heya
<reinhard> night all
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<chillywilly> wb jcater
<jcater> thanks
<jcater> hate it when X crashes
<chillywilly> how'd you make it crash?
<jcater> dunno
<chillywilly> If this rumor is even remotely true it'll make Apple's efforts to put Unix on the desk look like a fart in a whirlwind.
<chillywilly> if this rumor is true why don't they just have some sort of relationship going with redhat, why do they need to buy them out?
<chillywilly> a nice long contract
<chillywilly> or something
<derek> i can see it now
<derek> the next upgrade of 'aol' version 10
<derek> it not only upgrades your dialup account
<derek> and your aim version
<derek> but ill be damned if you dont end up running redhat by the time your done :)
<derek> way i see it
<derek> aol's big thing w/ microsoft
<derek> was MSN
<derek> MSN basically came out teeth gnarled saying we will take AOL and Yahoo desktops adn be content kings
<derek> this was further pushed by their deal w/ qwest
<derek> and insult to injury they told AOL f you about being part of the windows desktop
<derek> i see AOL's interest in redhat
<derek> pure retribution
<derek> basically saying fine MS you want to keep us off YOUR desktop
<derek> we will have one of our own and our customers will flock to it like they hvae our services
<derek> i.e. i think AOL has a real model and that is content
<derek> i.e. they have the 'paid community' thing down
<derek> even my 80 year in=laws have and use aol
<derek> and love it
<derek> anyhow thats my take
<derek> netscape i think was the 'start of that'
<chillywilly> is this good for the community?
<derek> i think very soon you will see aol available for linux (supposedly its already done, just not released)
<chillywilly> if AOL buys redhat
<derek> using netscape
<derek> chillywilly: im torn
<derek> i think so
<derek> linux the kernel and most of the apps are GPL
<derek> so there they cant monkey
<derek> if they PLAY nice i see no foul
<derek> example: netscape
<derek> netscape the 'shipping' product doesnt really ahve more 'features' that are usefull in it
<derek> it has more 'content' driven stuff
<derek> so if aol paying netscape employees to make propreitary netscape
<derek> yields me a GPL'ed mozilla
<derek> damn right its good for the community
<chillywilly> what does nutscrape have in it that mozilla doesn't?
<derek> if AOL paying redhat developers nets getting a butt load of new desktop users
<derek> its worth it
<chillywilly> I suppose so
<derek> as long as they are giving something to the community at the same time
<jcater> chillywilly: well, nutscape works on a lot of sites that mozilla doesn't :)
<chillywilly> I don;t see how you can say that they both use gecko
<derek> i.e. i wouldnt use the 'hold some back' model personally as im a truist in many ways to the 'movement'
<derek> but i see the 'hold some back' model from the TOP money pushers as 'a start'
<derek> i.e. AOL or IBM throwing a couple billion dollars a free software world
<derek> is a good thing in many ways
<derek> even if on all points  i dont see eye to eye with them
<derek> basically i think they will start to understand the community and leverage it
<derek> in ways that are beneficial
<derek> i.e. i think all such corporations are out for a buck
<derek> but good corporations know that the buck stops when your consumer is no longer satisified
<derek> right now i think thats what is REALLY killing microsoft
<chillywilly> hopefully they can make that buck without screwing ppl too badly ;P
<derek> they dont understand that the GEENERAL public (their customer) is fed up in many ways worse than us free software freaks
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> 30 million ppl use AOL
<derek> chillywilly: i dont see paying aol 21.95 for dialup service as pure evil
<chillywilly> me either
<derek> in fact if i had to have dialup i would probably think it a pretty good deal
<chillywilly> but their software is prop.
<derek> if i didnt know a ton about cmoputs
<derek> er computers
<derek> chillywilly: my point is their model isnt selling software
<chillywilly> I want the world though ;P
<derek> so say opening the source to AOL client
<chillywilly> exactly
<derek> i dont think is the end of the world to them
<chillywilly> so they should GPL the AOL software ;)
<derek> i.e. in due time i think they probably would see it as valuable
<chillywilly> that's not going to happen though
<derek> especially if they use netscape
<derek> and do most of it in XUL
<derek> chillywilly: i think you would be suprised
<chillywilly> well..it would be a real nice surprise
<derek> to my knowledge aol didnt care that opne source clients were using aim so much
<derek> they changed the protocol to keep MSN from being compatiable
<derek> and honestly i dont blame them
<derek> as MSN has pretty much tried to muscle AOL out of its customers
<chillywilly> does anyone even use MSN?
<jcater> sigh
<derek> the same way it did with netscape
Action: jcater raises hand
<derek> chillywilly: LOTS of people do
<chillywilly> jcater: :(
<derek> all qwest customers just got converted
<chillywilly> ok
<derek> btw: historically aol was kicking msn ass in numbers
<derek> despite msn spending billions on the campaign
<derek> thats why you saw the qwest deal
<derek> INSTANT customer doubling on msn part
<derek> also they cut deal with dell to have msn on top so to speak for dell shipments
<chillywilly> someone was saying that AOL + GNU/Linux + Java and web services could kill .NET
<derek> believe me i dont claim to like AOL
<derek> and odnt want to 'defend' them too much
<derek> frankly the red hat deal scares the crap out of me
<derek> BUT
<derek> i ahve been REALLY impressed with management at red hat
<derek> form bob young on down the line
<chillywilly> heh. I wonder if the developers would even stay if AOL bought redhat
<derek> if there is one free software company that has a chance of making AOL UNDERSTAND the philosphy
<derek> i think its red hat
<derek> as they proved to be profitable in hard times with a free software model
<derek> and they are 'rationale' in approach
<derek> of course only time will tell
<derek> chillywilly: i wonder how you feel about SuSE
<derek> i mean you realize thats a COMMERCIAL linux distro
<derek> where you cant download an .iso
<chillywilly> er?
<derek> i.e. they basically try to hide themselves, very much like caldera
<derek> chillywilly: YaST and other suse programs
<chillywilly> I never used SuSE
<derek> dont 'attach' to the kernel
<derek> so they dont have to worry about licensing conflicts
<chillywilly> don't have much interest in commercial distros...especially rpm based ones
<derek> same way redhat can ship oracle w/ their distro for money
<derek> only iirc suse does this with whole distro
<derek> of course on request you get source for all gpl programs in the distro
<derek> chillywilly: im just pointing out suse is extremely prevalent in europe
<chillywilly> yes, I know
<derek> and has non friendly business practices today
<derek> but you seem to be vigilent on aol/redhat deal
<derek> that hasnt happened :)
<chillywilly> uh?
<derek> and if it did doesnt necessarily mean things at red hat would change :)
<chillywilly> was just talking about it
<derek> i know, good discussion too
<derek> just saying there are already 'evils' w/in the community
<derek> and people generally dont talk about them
<chillywilly> sure, there are plenty of them
<chillywilly> excecpt RMS ;)
<chillywilly> he's wuikc to point out all of them
<chillywilly> quick
<chillywilly> like IBM's billion dollar investment
<chillywilly> in "Linux"
<chillywilly> but anyway, yes I am willing to compromise
<chillywilly> I use a mozilla based even though I don't like then rolling it back into a prop. product
<chillywilly> based browser
<derek> get this
<derek> i built new shelving and moving my books
<derek> wife saw access97 bible and Delphi 4 book
Action: derek wants to preface that we had a toil the other night about windows being removed from our home
<chillywilly> ok
<derek> so she says 'you better get rid of those damn windows books, cause you dont do windows'
<chillywilly> haha
Action: derek tends to agree and so they are getting donated to work
<chillywilly> :)
Action: jcater hears a chorus of angels singing in the background
<jcater> Halleluah!
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> no more references for derek to compare
<jcater> Designer to Delphi
<chillywilly> :D
<chillywilly> rofl
<derek> jcater: i havent fired up delphi for about a year
<derek> as last two times i had to change code in existing delphi programs
<derek> i just used emacs
<chillywilly> delphi is what object pascal or something with development tools?
<derek> and command line of delphi to compile
<derek> chillywilly: both
<chillywilly> er
<derek> delphi is borland object pascal
<chillywilly> yes
<derek> then they  created the VCL (visual compent library)
<chillywilly> I didn't mean one or the other
<derek> and then wrote delphi the tool/ide in delphi
<chillywilly> "object pascal or something" is referring to is it object pascal
<derek> its actually done really well
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> but pascal?
Action: chillywilly doesn't even know pascal
<derek> i think the ported all to linux as well (kylix)
<derek> and replaced VCL with CLX
<derek> which is a xplatform VCL
<derek> also looked fairly decent
<derek> but im a gnue'r now :)
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> you are just a freak
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> free software freak too
<jcater> dudes
<jcater> Designer is almost useful now
<chillywilly> kewl
<chillywilly> too bad my wxgtk is b0rked :(
<jcater> our Layout Editor is drag-n-drop + toolbar at top
<jcater> plus we have full schema introspection support
<jcater> plus a real syntax-highlighting code editor
<jcater> plus a data source editor
<chillywilly> hen you say "schema" do you mean how the datanase is layed out?
<chillywilly> database
<jcater> yip'
<chillywilly> tables and theor structure
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> well, it's abstracted out
<jcater> so for relational sources, it's "tables" + "fields"
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> but for object sources, it's "objects" + "attributes"
<jcater> or whatever the driver specifies
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> kewl
<jcater> so whenever GEAS works
<jcater> designer will be ready
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> good :)
<chillywilly> does forms handle relational and object sources?
<jcater> it uses GNUe-Common's driver support
<chillywilly> jcater: btw, good job
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> so it supports whatever that supports
<chillywilly> sounds good
<chillywilly> GRUb 0.91 released
<chillywilly> GRUB
<chillywilly> * JFS and XFS support is added.
<chillywilly> kewl :)))
<jcater> eh
<jcater> I use ext3 now
<chillywilly> well I use xfs
<chillywilly> do you use GRUB or lilo?
<jcater> lilo
<chillywilly> oh
Action: chillywilly uses grub
<chillywilly> grub rocks
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<derek> hi ZmaL
<ZmaL> hi
<chillywilly> I think debian is going to start using grub as the boot loader
<chillywilly> brb
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<ajmitch> hey jbailey
<jbailey> heya aj
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<neilt> hello all
<derek> anyone know where to donate used cell phones that work?
<derek> i.e. have old ones i dont use (no service) but functional
<derek> i hate to throw them away
<neilt> in the commercial they throw them in the lake :)
<neilt> j/k
<neilt> but if you find someplace we have one also
<neilt> how about the red cross
<derek> yeah wife said she saw something about donating
<derek> looking on web now
<derek> hmm looks like #1 donation use is battered womens shelters
<neilt> makes sense
<derek> http://www.donateaphone.com/where.cfm
<derek> cool lots of close places for me :)
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<neilt> none close to me
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<fitzix> hello
<neilt> fitzix: hello
<fitzix> hello neilt, how ar ya?
<neilt> ok, just working to damn hard
<fitzix> hehe, isn't that always the way?
<neilt> guess so
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Action: jcater is away: store
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:54:11)
Action: fitzix is away: shoveling
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<derek> sigh cleaning sucks
<derek> 4 massive bags of junk to toss
<derek> office is at least free of 'junk' for most part
<jcater> ah
<derek> now just need organize my desk area some
<jcater> that much win32 software, eh?
<derek> (got tax stuff all sorted too)
<derek> jcater: actually yeah
<jcater> eek.. don't mention taxes, plz
<derek> throwing away reams of floppy disks
<derek> quattro pro, works, word etc etc etc
<chillywilly> just format them
<derek> chillywilly: yeah right
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> ah, quattro pro
<derek> i have like 6 boxes of 50 floppy disks (pre formatted)
<jcater> the memories
<derek> that i got for free ages ago
<derek> in fact i have two shelves
<derek> one full shelf w/ cds
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> derek: sorry not all of use are as special as you are
<derek> and one full shelf of blank media
<jcater> we only have floppies in a couple of computers these days
<jcater> and that
<derek> i think i have like 350 or so blank cd-rs
<jcater> 's to load agent data
Action: chillywilly is enjoying a beer
<derek> i keep picking them up for free or like pennies per cd
<derek> good news is i will be ready to press gnue cd's soon
<jcater> dude... time to start burning complementary GNUe CDs for redistributions
<derek> jcater: yip
Action: fitzix is back (gone 00:23:09)
<chillywilly> heheh
Nick change: rdean -> rdean-[jabba]
<chillywilly> ack
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<jcater> dude...
<jcater> if jamest is on dialup
<jcater> I'm shocked they let him be on 24x7
<chillywilly> they?
<fitzix> the ISP
<jcater> yes, the isp
<chillywilly> why?
<jcater> most have policies against that
<chillywilly> no they don't
<jcater> and log you out after so much online
<jcater> chillywilly: sure they do
<fitzix> yep, they do
<chillywilly> true
<fitzix> idle time regs
<chillywilly> my connection breaks
<chillywilly> bastards
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<jcater> hehe
<jcater> well, maybe their policies are kicking in 
<jcater> and debian is kicking back
<fitzix> hehe
<derek> um a few things
<derek> its fairly easy to prevent 'deconnection' for 'idle' time
<derek> however some ISP's now put connection limits anyhow idle or not
<fitzix> IRC will do it all by itself
<jcater> ja
<jcater> (as mdean would say)
<derek> but in this case its a small locally owned isp
<derek> and jamest knows owner (they are windows shop)
<derek> so i doubt they ahve gone to trouble of 'keeping people off' :)
<fitzix> I used to get onto IRC just to keep a connection live...
<chillywilly> mine times out no matter what
<jcater> mine too
<derek> jcater.... i choose you.....
<jcater> of course, I have cable modem
<jcater> and it shouldn't
<derek> rofl, i guess i forgot to take that out of my playlist :
<jcater> argh!
<ajmitch> i've been connected for a week at a time with my isp
<ajmitch> heheh
<jcater> dude
<jcater> policies or not
<jcater> I've never known a dialup that good
<jcater> must be that NZ water
<ajmitch> i would usually be connected for a few days anyway unless i had to use the phone
<dsmith> Wow.  blackbox was updated!
<chillywilly> fitzix: :P
<chillywilly> fitzix: :PP
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Nick change: fitzix -> Tony_Stanco_Jr
Nick change: Tony_Stanco_Jr -> fitzix
<derek> run
<ajmitch> lol
<fitzix> hehehe
<chillywilly> ack!!!!!
<fitzix> where the hell did he come from?!? :)
<fitzix> derek: hehe
<jcater> self.layoutEditor
<jcater> oops
<jcater> sorry
<fitzix> hehe
<derek> fitzix: you plan on going to NY linuxworld
<fitzix> derek: I'll be there
<fitzix> :)
<fitzix> derek: you gonna be there?
<ajmitch> fitzix: you gonna help a poor kiwi get there? ;)
<jcater> ajmitch: I think it's water all the way
<jcater> you could swim
<jcater> the conference center actually overlooks the harbor
<jcater> iirc
<fitzix> ajmitch: I wish I could, but I'm a little bit limited on funds
<derek> fitzix: i wont be there, but jcater might
<ajmitch> ok, i'd probably need to swim thru the panama canal, or round the south of s. america
Action: jcater dcc's his old intertubes to ajmitch
<ajmitch> thx jcater
<derek> jcater: you willing to go to toledo, OH march 12-13
<ajmitch> when is it?
<derek> if i can get you lined up as a speaker
<jcater> derek: give me a second... need to check my calendar
<fitzix> Well, I'll be speaking at the DotGNU panel at 2:30 on the 30th
<jcater> derek: probably so... what is it?
Action: jcater runs to mapsonus.com to check mileage 
<derek> http://www.thinklinux.talug.org/
<derek> guy spoke w/ us in SF
<derek> its an 'end user' linux show
<ajmitch> fitzix: when?
<derek> instead of targetting developers its targetting users
<derek> guess its in its third year
<derek> they ahve city of toledo behind them (funding it from what i can tell)
<derek> imagine it will be 'small'
<derek> but probably good market for gnue
<derek> i think the guy said he would gladly give us free booth
<derek> and he was VERY interested in having you present gnue wrt your call center
<derek> since its put on by a lug we coudl probably get you free spot to crash
<derek> but dont know about travel
<derek> its only a 'two day' even
<derek> t
<jcater> 12 hour drive
<jcater> certainly doable
<jcater> but that's 4 days in middle of week
<jcater> so basically a week off work
<jcater> are you positive on dates?
<jcater> as that's a Tue + Wed
<jcater> kinda odd days
<derek> march 12-13 2002 is what flier says
<derek> im sure since city is sponsoring
<derek> its a city run civic center complex they are using
<derek> and those are dates probably that werent 'booked'
<derek> i was hoping it was a thurs fri or even fri sat
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> this is right outside of detroit, apparently
<jcater> I wish it wasn't in the middle of the week
<jcater> as this will be 1/2 my vacation for the year
<jcater> unless I catch a flu starting that monday
<jcater> <cough>
<jcater> do you have the times?
<jcater> is it in the evenings?
<jcater> if so, I might can do a 2.5 - 3 day trip
<chillywilly> you might can do dude
<chillywilly> I might can do a trout slappin;
<jcater> eh?
<derek> man i dont want to kill your vacation time man
<chillywilly> you know a might can do a few things if aI per ner git there
<chillywilly> yea man
<chillywilly> man th would suck man
<chillywilly> man
<jcater> unless I make a vacation out of it
<derek> wonder if you were speaker if they would pay your airfare
<jcater> apparently it overlooks Lake Erie
<ajmitch> chillywilly: you can be a little offensive at time in your jokes :)
<jcater> derek: well, that could tip the balance
<chillywilly> just making fun of their silly speech
<chillywilly> I'm not being "offensive"
<chillywilly> I love those guys
<chillywilly> man...
<jcater> good thing it's at the northern-most part of ohio
<jcater> because Ohio in general is a boring state
<jcater> (no offense, any Ohio-ans)\
<jcater> looks like its a straight shot to Chicago
<jcater> now, dude, If I could get tickets to Emeril Live in Chicago, that'd be worth the trip
<jcater> ;)
<jcater> derek: can you try to get more information
<ajmitch> lol
<derek> yeah
<chillywilly> you could just go about 2 hours north and visit me
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> oooo
<jcater> I wanna go to WI
<jcater> does cheese travel well in coolers???
<chillywilly> yea
<jcater> mmmmmmmmmmmm
<jcater> cheeeeeeese
<chillywilly> hehe
<jcater> second only to donuts
<chillywilly> wow
<chillywilly> that's saying a LOT
<chillywilly> comign from you
<chillywilly> coming
Action: derek likes cheese too
Action: chillywilly just takes his cheese for granted
<jcater> derek: and a doughy crust and a tomato sauce????
<chillywilly> dude
<jcater> err, bad joke
<chillywilly> you're making me hungry 
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<derek> mmmmm
<derek> yeah cheese and dough and sauce mmmm mmm good
<fitzix> meatsa
<derek> with round pepperoni disks on top
<chillywilly> mmmmmm
<jcater> derek: did you go to that http://www.thinklinux.talug.org/ website
<jcater> ??
<jcater> The three-day event, scheduled for October 29-31, 2002, ....
Action: jcater wonders if they've rescheduled since you got the flyer
<jws> Derek, are you a gnue maintainer?
<chillywilly> derek is da GNUe masta
<jws> I haven't been on irc since 96 so bear with my clumsy fumbling...
<jcater> jws: did you have a question?
<jws> I have been considering rolling my own erp package, then I found out about GNUe. I want to colaborate.
<derek> jws: define collaborate
<derek> if you mean work on gnue we definitely have room
<derek> if you mean you roll own erp package and we interface, we are definitely willing to talk and interested in such a thing
<derek> but it would be of much lower priority for us because of limited resources. :(
<jws> My company switched software due to our previous vendor imploding and the new package is a disappointment.
<jws> I have been banging out the table relations for all the different modules in my head for 6 months. I know how I want it to work pretty much.
<jws> The owner would never go for a totally from-scratch app, but if it had independant development momentum, I could make it happen.
<jws> I figure with the progress you guys are making, in 6 months to a year I could have a package equal to what we have now, just by hanging my table relations on your framework.
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<derek> the framework is ready and in production right now
<derek> in two tier mode w/ about any imaginable database
<derek> i think if you had table structures ready
<derek> you could have a strong prototype by end of week
<derek> w/ new improvemetns to designer its harder to make your tables than it is the forms that use them
<derek> imho
<jws> well, the data model is always the hardest part to get right...
<jws> We are a small build-to-order manufacturing facility.
<jws> We have bumped up against silly assumptions in the database many,many times. I know what traps not to step into...
<jws> Assuming I have postgres running, is there a way to just load the core tables?
<derek> what do you mean load and which tables?
<derek> your tables or gnue tables?
<jws> the documentation talks about having basic tables, and then industry-specific modification packages which add extra tables and such. how does that work?
<derek> right
<derek> we are workign out the 'templates' constructs currently
<derek> basically all our proposal stuff has been done in n-tier which isnt ready for production
<derek> and there is a program that will load all the tables for that stuff
<derek> but there are not corresponding forms to go with them
<derek> and they wont make sense w/o application server as they are designed to hold object structures
<derek> what we have been doing for clients that need solutions immediately
<derek> is making custom solutions w/ the framework
<derek> in 2 tier mode
<derek> since its client specific stuff we dont have it released 
<jws> Where i'm going with this is rather interesting.
<derek> if you look in gnue/forms/samples/track/
<derek> there is a postgres sample of a contact manager
<derek> that creates the tables and such
<derek> and has the forms bound to them etc etc
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<jws> forms interfaces are good for data entry, but not so good at analysis. all erp software is that way.
<jws> I have some ideas i'm developing with my boss that will be 'killer applications' for our niche.
<derek> well a few things there
<derek> we have a complex report server
<jws> the trouble is, we can't really do them with the package we have now.
<derek> it translates data from sql to xml
<derek> and then has transformation engine
<derek> that can convert it from XML to about anything from html, pdf, ps, latex, you name it
<derek> i ahve been speaking with developers at morgan stanley about a linux OLAP engine as well
<derek> which is KILLER for analysis
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<Isomer> OLAP?
<derek> Online Analytical Processing
<jws> reports are more of a daily or weekly view of the manufacturing data. we are optimized to the point that we need real-time understanding of the process to be effective.
<jws> olap is something I am starting to appreciate. I allways understood the concept, but I never knew that's what olap was.
<jws> It just hit me one day. SQL was like that, too.
<derek> i use olap like daily
<jws> The manufacturing module is what really has me motivated to this. If i share code with the work you guys have already done, i'm set.
<derek> in govt setting where we have 13,000+ employees and about 2.6 billion in revenue a year
<jws> the olap stuff i'm interested in for sales trends and things of that nature.
<derek> its not manufacturing but there are lot of numbers to look at and OLAP makes it easy for management :)
<derek> i dimension swapping, list loving, cube building olap fool
<jws> We have a situation where we compete with a small number of other vendors for a few customers. we sometimes don't notice when a customer stops buying a particular type of product from us.
<jws> we want to sopt those kind of trends.
<jws> spot, i said, dammit
<derek> jws: you a linux shop currently?
<jws> for infrastructure only, web, dns, firewall. 
<derek> woudl you use linux as a back end?
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<jws> I have unprecedented clout with the owner. As long as I could work out a way to do hot backups of postgres, i'll use that.
<derek> um you arent limited to postgres :)
<derek> if you needed SUPER hot backups of DB
<derek> you could always use SAP-DB
<derek> its free (as in GPL) and its good enough for SAP R/3 im sure its good enough for anything a small company needs to do
<derek> plus i know for a fact it does hot backups
<jws> We currently have an app based on pervasive db and they support a linux version as well. I would probably proto on PGres.
<derek> and will allow writing direct to device (for speed) that postgres wont
<derek> if pervausive has free copies of db somewhere and drivers
<derek> email links to jcater
<jws> I'm not religous abot databasing.
<derek> w/in probably a few days you could have working db drivers for gnue
<derek> for pervasive
<derek> jws: i only mention it because you could make forms for your existing application in minutes if you so desired :)
<jcater> well, if pervasive has odbc drivers, you can already connect :)
<jws> I think you can get a 'workstation' edition and sdk free. local connections only. 
<derek> jcater: doh, forgot about that
<derek> but odbc has weak introspection :)
<jws> odbc, ado, jdbc, linux, netware, winnt, multithreaded for SMP...
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater needs to finish those ado drivers
<jws> our current app(who will remain anonymous) is a cobol-based windows app. you can imagine...
<jws> formerly btreive based, now storing non-relational data in a relational system.
<jws> after spend a week trying to write a report in this crap, I swore to make a better system. vengence demands it.
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<jws> i'm checking out for the night. I'll go through the GNUe-common package and look at what you have so far. I'll check back later this week.
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Action: lilo-- looks in
<lilo--> hi all
Action: jcater peers back at lilo
<lilo--> hi jcater
<jcater> hellow
<jcater> how goes all?
<ajmitch> hey lilo--
Action: lilo-- wondered if someone could give him a quick summary of the development framework and what it compares to in the proprietary world
<lilo--> right now I'm stuck with Windows Powerbuilder and I wanted to know that there was at least something sane out there :)
<jcater> lilo--: direct comparison to Oracle Forms and PowerBuilder
<lilo--> hi ajmitch
<lilo--> jcater: fantastic
<ajmitch> nah, GNUe is better :)
<jcater> actually, the two main coders of GNUe Forms are ex-Oracle Forms users
<lilo--> oic :)
<jcater> who got burnt by oracle
<jcater> :)
<lilo--> what databases do you connect to?  the free ones only?
<jcater> yeah, only better ;)
<jcater> Postgres, MySQL, DB2, Oracle SAP-DB, Interbase, 
<jcater> Informix, any ODBC, 
Action: lilo-- asks because he keeps looking for an opening to squeeze some free software in at work 8)
<lilo--> is the dreaded MS SQL Server somewhere in there? :)
<jcater> err, there's a comma between Oracle and SAP-DB
<jcater> um
<lilo--> well, I have to ask
<jcater> we are working on an ADO driver
<lilo--> so that would do the job?
<jcater> but it's supported via ODBC at the moment
<jcater> yeah
<lilo--> so you can talk to MS SQL Server through ODBC?
<jcater> ADO is supposedly  MS Server's native interface format
<lilo--> oic
<jcater> note the *supposedly*
<lilo--> is there anything really missing in terms of functionality via ODBC?
<jcater> this is based on my research ;)
<jcater> um, yeah
<jcater> we use a public domain ODBC driver
<jcater> which is lacking introspection
<jcater> (schema) support
<lilo--> oic
Action: lilo-- is a bit new to SQL
<jcater> so our Designer can't automatically create forms
<lilo--> oic
<lilo--> hmmm
--- Tue Jan 22 2002