[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<lilo--> is this the piece that is equivalent to Powerbuilder?
<jcater> well, I haven't actually used PowerBuilder
Action: lilo-- is really new to all this stuff
<jcater> but I'd have to say, yeah
<jcater> Designer is our IDE
<jcater> Forms runs what Designer creates
<lilo--> are the forms the way to lay out access to database tables?
<jcater> forms can provide a window into the database tables
<lilo--> so the Designer does that job
<jcater> i.e., they pull from and save to the tables
<lilo--> it's the equivalent of Powerbuilder datawindows I guess
<jcater> it can be as simple as a visual representation of a table
<jcater> or can be as complex as you'd like
<lilo--> okay, now talk to me about debugging
<jcater> (i.e., pulling from many, many tables in one form)
<lilo--> Powerbuilder is horrible :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well, where we are? or where we will be?
<lilo--> are you guys pretty early?  or are you happy with where you are?
<jcater> as right now, try not to make mistakes :)
Action: lilo-- nods :)
<jcater> j/k
<lilo--> well, I can accept that
<lilo--> Powerbuilder is that way and it will never get better ;)
<jcater> actually, the client software is in production use
<jcater> at my office and a few other guy's offices
<jcater> my IT team is starting to use designer
<lilo--> so I guess I should look at your stuff if I ever get time
<jcater> but it's fairly new
<jcater> now the other tools aren't as "mature"
<jcater> i.e., reporting, app server, etc
<lilo--> oic
<jcater> but we're getting there :)
<lilo--> I expect so
<lilo--> this is really good news
<jcater> and the more early adopters we have, the sooner we'll get there
<jcater> <hint>
<lilo--> I've been thinking since I started this job that there was a real opportunity for community people in the space
<lilo--> well, I wish I could be helpful there
<jcater> yeah, check us out...
<jcater> if you have any questions, you know where we are :)
<lilo--> but I spend most of my time doing the following:  trying to get quality time with my wife and 3 year old, suffering bouts of depression from working with Windows
<lilo--> and my left-over time is spent doing Powerbuilder coding :)
<lilo--> and actually throw OPN itself into that first list 8)
<jcater> ah, 3 year old
<jcater> I can relate
<lilo--> hehe
<jcater> "quality time" ???\
<jcater> wassat?
<lilo--> I'm trying to figure out if I spend more time working on OPN or having depressive episodes from coding with Windows :)
<jcater> j/k
<lilo--> my actual pay job falls in last 8)
<jcater> lol
<lilo--> it's really good to know you guys are working on this
<lilo--> I'll kick my boss' butt about it at first opportunity
<jcater> cool
<lilo--> I can sort of do that, he's my older brother 8)
<jcater> rofl
<lilo--> not that it does me any good
<lilo--> but sooner or later maybe I can nudge him in the right direction
<jcater> just kick harder
<jcater> or more strategically, perhaps?
<lilo--> well, I'm at this job because we ran out of money 1200 miles away :)
<lilo--> so my priority right now is not being homeless :)
<jcater> that's a good priority to have
Action: lilo-- nods
<lilo--> you guys doing this all on your own time, or is somebody paying hourly?
<jcater> mostly on our own time
<lilo--> good for you
<jcater> a few of us who use this at our jobs
<lilo--> ah, that's neat too :)
<jcater> can squeeze in some "on-the-hour" work
<jcater> ;)
<lilo--> these days VC worries me
<lilo--> for obvious reasons
Action: lilo-- thinks we all should have known better 8)
<jcater> yeah
<lilo--> it's not even a business issue
<lilo--> companies with VC don't do business very well 8)
<jcater> VC + free software aren't a good mix
<lilo--> say, maybe that *is* a business issue :)
<jcater> as VC expects a quick, high return
<lilo--> jcater: that's only because VC and flexibility, or VC and business return, aren't a good mix 8)
<jcater> but, we haven't really had to face that issue
<jcater> ;)
<lilo--> jcater: from what I saw, the problem was the reverse....take VC and you ended up swimming in other people's money, but no profit
<jcater> how true
<lilo--> it's hard to make a profit when you have too much of other people's money
<lilo--> the thing about the boom is, we didn't fail because our values aren't real world enough
<lilo--> we failed because VC values aren't :)
<lilo--> anyway, enough of me ranting :)
<lilo--> I'm glad to hear you guys are in business, and I don't think I ever officially welcomed you here
<lilo--> welcome to Open Projects Net :)
<jcater> lol
<jcater> thanks
<lilo--> and I'll try to get something going....what kind of resource do I need to demonstrate the software, you think?  big machine, medium sized?
<jcater> not too much at all, really
<lilo--> that's what I wanted to hear :)
<lilo--> I love free software :)
<jcater> I have 30 users all running on a dual 400 Mhz PII
<lilo--> sounds good
<jcater> gotta love it :)
Action: lilo-- nods :)
<lilo--> btw, if you need anything, let us know
<jcater> btw, that's full X-Sessions, KOffice, etc
<jcater> not just our software :)
<lilo--> I'm just really glad to see you here
<jcater> thanks
<lilo--> I better get some rest
Action: lilo-- waves
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<jcater> ajmitch: nite
<jcater> or, nite all :)
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<nickr> that was odd
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<FunkyTrix> not much going on here ...
<chillywilly> ppl are asleep
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<dsmith> g'mornin people
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<edmz> anyone with experience with Bayonne ?
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<jamest> ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<jcater> well, good morning to you too
<jamest> good^H^H^H^Hmorning
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<dneighbo> jamest do you have ra3vat's email?
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<dneighbo> hi rridley 
<rridley> hi
<rridley> Is this the place to get info on gnuenterprise?
<dneighbo> yes
<rridley> I'm messing around with the geas and can't get it to compile on Redhat
<dneighbo> are you only interested in geas?
<dneighbo> as currently geas is under going some restructing
<rridley> What I want is the accounting stuff, but it looks like thats still in proposal?
<dneighbo> yes still in proposal
<dneighbo> the framework is highly usable in 2 tier mode (w/o application server)
<rridley> hmmm, what works and what can I mess with?
<Yurik> dneighbo probably I can find ra3vat e-mail
<dneighbo> if you wanted to use it write applications today
<rridley> of course, that greek to me
<dneighbo> rridley grab
<dneighbo> forms, common and designer
<dneighbo> you can either do so via cvs or via last release
<dneighbo> all should function under redhat ok
<rridley> ok
<dneighbo> once you grab them let us know 
<dneighbo> and we can walk you through the process if need be
<rridley> I think I can implement sql-ledger in the short run, but I sure do like what I read on gnue
<dneighbo> and get you rolling today w/ workign gnue framework :)
<rridley> thanks
<Yurik> dneighbo if you will say his name (I forgot it), I can find ra3vat e-mail
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<Yurik> re
<ajmitch> hi
<dneighbo> hey ajmitch when does fiztix normally show up in irc?
<dneighbo> or norbert?
<ajmitch> hmm, they showed up for quite awhile yesterday
<ajmitch> a few hours maybe?
<ajmitch> they don't always come on irc tho
<ajmitch> so i have no idea :)
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<dneighbo> sup FunkyTrix 
<FunkyTrix> hi dneighbo!
<FunkyTrix> I learned about this GNUe today and I'm trying to play with it
<FunkyTrix> the idea seems cool, but still haven't found out how "functional" the thing is yet
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<sklein> dneighbo: you there derek?
<sklein> guess not.  Looking for a response to my email.
<sklein> bye all
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<Yurik> re
<dsmith> Yurik: Hey. (what's "re" mean anyway?)
<Yurik> dsmith hi
<Yurik> dsmith smthing like "hello again"
<dsmith> Ahh.
<dsmith> wb Yurik!
<Yurik> :)
<dsmith> They put some pictures up from the installfest.
<dsmith> http://cleveland.lug.net/installfest2002/installfest2002.html
<dsmith> You can see me in http://cleveland.lug.net/installfest2002/026.jpg
<dneighbo> FunkyTrix its highly usable
<dneighbo> in 2 tier mode
<dsmith> dneighbo: What do you guys mean by "2 tier" mode?
<dneighbo> not using the application server
<dneighbo> i.e. forms talks directly to the database server
<dneighbo> instead of talking to application server and application server talks to database server
<FunkyTrix> ah cool
<FunkyTrix> I wanted to do some time tracking assigning time slots to tasks, tasks to jobs, jobs to clients ...
<dneighbo> if you need help setting things up let us know and someone will walk you through it
<FunkyTrix> is it feasable?
<dneighbo> yes VERY
<dneighbo> in fact we are merging DCL into our framework which does similar things out of the box
<dneighbo> you might want to look at using DCL up front and then playing active role in the migration to GNUe Framework
<FunkyTrix> I'm very happy it uses python. python is just awesome, i'm using it for zope
<dneighbo> http://dcl.sourceforge.net
<dneighbo> of course if you wanted soemthing custom just use the frame work natively
<dneighbo> with new improvements to designer it will take you longer to write the SQL create scripts
<dneighbo> than it will to make the application :)
<FunkyTrix> you're developing it, right?
<FunkyTrix> oh, dcl looks great too
Action: Yurik is back
<dneighbo> jcater is our primary coder
<dneighbo> i am workign on porting dcl
<dneighbo> here is an 'ugly' yet working represenation of that
<FunkyTrix> i'm using the DCL demo :-)
<ajmitch> i presume dcl will remain php?
<dneighbo> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/service_requests.jpg
<FunkyTrix> oh, the "goats" part of the addres scared me :-)
<FunkyTrix> dneighbo: would be possible to create bills from DCL (producing DocBook or LaTeX sources maybe, and then PDF)?
<FunkyTrix> I use PHP a lot, if the internals aren't crazy I could do it ...
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> well kind of
<dneighbo> that is part of what we are doing and prompted the merge :)
<dneighbo> we have a report server that is xml based
<dneighbo> and w/ style sheets can do anything :)
<FunkyTrix> cool DocBook uses xml
<dneighbo> currently if you made an 'invoice' template in word, kword or staroffice, abiword etc
<dneighbo> you could then do a 'merge' to create your invoices
<dneighbo> with MINIMAL work
<dneighbo> if we hammer our 'schema' for reports
<dneighbo> i can write you a stylesheet for xslt
<FunkyTrix> xstl?
<dneighbo> that would convert to html or docbook if you so desired
<dneighbo> xstl = xml stylesheet transformation language (iirc)
<dneighbo> er xslt
<dneighbo> head in arse
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<dneighbo> i have to take dog to vet, be back in a bit
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<FunkyTrix> shooks, too much stuff going on. Never heard about this xstl
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<jamest> wtf was that?
<ajmitch> that was fun
<ajmitch> looks like all the servers suddenly died
<ajmitch> maybe script kiddies found a bug :)
<nickr> its the end of the world
<ajmitch> the sky is falling!
<jamest> :)
Action: nickr runs around like a crazy man
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<jamest> ah man
<jamest> looks like they let the riff raff back in
<derek> muhahahhaha
<derek> i wont be here for too much longer
<jamest> did anyone ever release?
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<jamest> the exes and tar.gzs were done
<derek> nope no one released
<ajmitch> they sure do let any old riff-raff in 
<derek> way jcater is going its time to release again :)
<ajmitch> hhee
Action: chillywilly is just hoping wxgtk is fixed
<ajmitch> fixed? when did it break?
<ajmitch> i have a wxpython app working fine here
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<jcater> mdean!!!
<mdean> jcater!!
<jcater> mdean!
<mdean> jcater!!
<jamest> jcater!!! mdean!!!
<mdean> jamest!!!  jcater!!!
<jcater> god!!!
<jamest> mcater!!! jdean!!!
<ajmitch> jcater!! mdean!!
<jamest> ajmitch!!jcater!!!!mdean!!!!d
<mdean> jat!!!
<chillywilly> plz try decaf everyone
<mdean> chillywilly!!!!!
<jamest> decaf!!!!!!
<mdean> espresso!!!
<mdean> Double Choco Latte!!! Grande size!
<jamest> crack and draino!!!!!!!
<chillywilly> boooobies!!!!
<ajmitch> decaf is eeevil!!!!
<chillywilly> woops, wrong channel
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: mdean eyes the bottle of draino....
<jamest> mmmmm draino
<mdean> wonder if they fill donuts with drano...how tasty that would be
<mdean> draino, even
<jcater> mdean: with all the preservatives, it couldn't hurt ya :)
<mdean> scweeeeeeet!
<chillywilly> s/ya/ja
<chillywilly> ajmitch: wxgtk works for you? You don't get libpng problems?
<ajmitch> chillywilly: nope, this was updated a day or 2 ago
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> then maybe I can run designer once I update here
<jcater> note to all cvs junkies:
<jcater> you'll need to rerun gnue/setup.py to run new
<jcater> designer from cvs
<jcater> note to all non-cvs junkies:
<jcater> you don't know what you're missing
<jamest> It's better than draino!
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> yay!
<chillywilly> there's a global gnue/setup.py?
<chillywilly> that's pretty cool
<jamest> yeah
<jamest> typically we don't tell people about it
<jamest> as we like to watch them suffer
<jamest> also it's developer setup only
<chillywilly> am I jus any person though?
<chillywilly> just
<chillywilly> I am chillywilly fear the trout!
<jcater> chillywilly: lord no, you are definitely uniqye
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> glad you havbe noticed :)
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<chillywilly> anyone going to listen to the linuxshow?
<chillywilly> http://www.thelinuxshow.com/linuxlive.m3u
<chillywilly> just point xmms at that
<chillywilly> actually
<chillywilly> point it at
<chillywilly> http://stream.thelinuxshow.com:8200/linuxlive.ogg
<derek> what is the topic?
<derek> i need to go to guitar lessons
Action: derek is away: music class
<chillywilly> AOHEll rumors
<chillywilly> etc/
<chillywilly> etc.
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<sklein> derek: you there?
<chillywilly> hey sklein
<sklein> hi chillywilly
<sklein> what's happening at the LinuxWorld?
<sklein> NY
<chillywilly> jcater might be there
<chillywilly> that's all we got going
<chillywilly> afaik
<sklein> will there be a BOF?
<sklein> I will be in NY that week, but I have lots of meetings and only might have a few hours Thursday to go to LW before I catch my train back to DC
<chillywilly> ok
<sklein> I will be at the IEEE Power Engineering Society meeting there
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> engineers rule
<chillywilly> :)
Action: chillywilly is member of IEEE
<sklein> from your keyboard to heaven directly
<chillywilly> you ever hear of this school: http://www.msoe.edu
<sklein> I'm working on a paper on the role of engineers i influencing public policy
<sklein> msoe?  I don't recognize it
<chillywilly> cool
<sklein> i=in
<chillywilly> Milwaukee School of Engineering
<sklein> can you spell it out?
<chillywilly> just did ;)
<sklein> is it part of a university?
<chillywilly> it is a university
<chillywilly> specializing in engineering
Action: chillywilly is an MSOE alumn
<sklein> don't recognize it off the top of my head
Action: chillywilly has a BS in Computer Engineering
<sklein> hardware and software?
<chillywilly> yes
<sklein> good area
<chillywilly> CS and EE courses
Action: ajmitch is doing a CS major, with electronics on the side
<sklein> good preparation
<chillywilly> http://www.msoe.edu/eecs/ce/cetrk29.htm
<sklein> any power systems work?
<chillywilly> nah
<chillywilly> that's for real EEs ;)
<chillywilly> EE-201  Linear Networks: Steady State Analysis
<chillywilly> EE-290  Combinational and Sequential Logic  
<chillywilly> EE-202  Linear Networks: Transient Analysis
<sklein> I've done a lot of domain work (radar, air traffic control, military,etc.  but electric power is one of the largest users of computers around
<chillywilly> EE-210  Electronic Devices and Computer Interfacing
<chillywilly> EE-370  Control Systems
<chillywilly> EE-393  VLSI Design
<chillywilly> that's all the EE courses
<sklein> do you know what SCADA is?
<chillywilly> umm, nope
<sklein> Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition -- the remote control of transmission and distribution substations
<chillywilly> power systems thing?
<sklein> I'm speaking at a session on information security protection of electric power SCADA systems
<chillywilly> I don't know power systems, I only know computer systems ;P
<sklein> you would be amazed how much of running a power system takes place in computer systems
<sklein> all the way down to embedded processing in substation equipment
<chillywilly> sure
<sklein> a lot of it is changing under deregulation/restructuring, but that just increases the role of computing
<chillywilly> computers are everywhere
<sklein> even in your toaster and breadmaker
Action: chillywilly did embedded systems development for a while
<chillywilly> best of both worlds
<chillywilly> get to play with hardware and software
<sklein> I attended a 3-day meeting related to UCITA.  One of the opponents (on the same side as me) talked about computers in breadmakers
<sklein> Internet connected, no less
Action: dsmith wishes he was doing embeded systems again
Action: dsmith sighs
Action: chillywilly does too
<chillywilly> dsmith: find a different job ;)
<dsmith> I'm looking.
<chillywilly> sklein: cool
<dsmith> Gonna put in a resume at hitachimed.  mri stuff, dsp's.
<chillywilly> medical stuff?
<dsmith> ya
<chillywilly> magnetic resonance imaging?
<sklein> I suppose I need to talk to jcater about LW-NY
<dsmith> yep
<chillywilly> sklein: probably
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> seeing as he will be the only one there
<sklein> derek had a note on the web page about wanting volunteers
Action: chillywilly had a second intervew with GE Medical Systems
<chillywilly> they turned me down
<sklein> is he planning to be there the whole 3 days?
<dsmith> :(
<dsmith> Or maybe :) ?
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> all I know is that I wish I could go
<chillywilly> maybe I will
<chillywilly> hmmm
<sklein> OK, maybe I'll email him.  I emailed derek, but haven't heard from him
<chillywilly> it's a bit late though
<sklein> you mean late in the day or late close to the meeting?
<sklein> I sent derek the email yesterday
<chillywilly> late to get things set up for LW
<chillywilly> to go there and run the booth
<chillywilly> maybe I am wrong
<sklein> I can't spend much time there.  I might be able to attend an evening BOF.  I only have the few hours Thursday
Action: chillywilly doesn't really know anyway
<sklein> OK, I'll keep trying to get to someone who knows more.  Maybe tomorrow
<chillywilly> if it ever comes back to chicago I'll be there for sure
<chillywilly> post to the list
<chillywilly> ;)
<sklein> PES is in Chicago next summer
<chillywilly> PES?
<sklein> Power Engineering Society
<chillywilly> chicago is only a 2 hour drive
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> why would ai want to go to that?
<chillywilly> s/ai/I
<chillywilly> no offense, but power systems ain't my thing
<sklein> no reason.  just commenting
<chillywilly> try gnue@gnu.org
<chillywilly> post there
<chillywilly> someone will respon I am sure
<sklein> they weren't mine at the start, but they grew on me over the years
<chillywilly> we only have 3 lists now
<sklein> I know about the lists
<chillywilly> that one and gnue-dev@gnu.org and gnue-announce@gnu.org
<sklein> I just haven't had much time to be active on them lately
<sklein> I'm on gnue-discuss and gnue-dev
<chillywilly> ok
<sklein> chillywilly:  good talking to you, but it's getting close to my bedtime
<chillywilly> night
<chillywilly> nice chatting with you too :)
<sklein> bye
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<jcater> hmm
<jcater> were y'all talking about me?
<jcater> well, need to run...
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<derek> where did all the people go?
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--- Wed Jan 23 2002