[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jamest> yeah
<jamest> we've also got a base app in there
<jamest> that gives you debug levels, profiling, config file reader, the start of a trigger system
<jamest> and lots of other little things
<jamest> anyway
<jamest> i need sleep
<jamest> l8r
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<stbain> hehe
<stbain> yah
Action: stbain needs sleep too
Action: chillywilly too
<stbain> nickr: zip me an email
<stbain> gun@gunandgiz.com
<nickr> moment
<nickr> zipped
<stbain> pa russke?
<nickr> wussy nightsleepers
<nickr> No
<stbain> heeh
<stbain> got it
<stbain> cool... I'll be back 
<nickr> latah
<stbain> sometime :/
<stbain> hehe
<stbain> dunno how much time I'll have here in the near future (kid on the way), but I definitely want to help
<nickr> cool
<nickr> no worries, this project is not going anywhere fast
<nickr> ;)
<nickr> well, its going somewhere
<nickr> recently
<nickr> but its been pretty static for a while
<stbain> yah, I noticed 
<nickr> recently I was working on another related project that'll feed directly into it though
<stbain> nite all
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<nickr> nite
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<dtm> hi all
<dtm> mZdZeZaZn: i still haven't installed dcl!
<dtm> any help is appreciated
<dtm> from anyone :)
<dtm> dcl works
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<dtm> FunkyTrix: hi
<FunkyTrix> hi dtm
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<jamest> morning
<jamest> (or afternoon or evening)
<derek> um morning
<drochaid> feasgar math
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<jamest> morning
<jamest> to the both of ya
<jcater> morning
<jamest> dneighbo: hows the DB2 stuff working
<jamest> ?
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<dneighbo> good
<dneighbo> did my quick haack to get me through
<dneighbo> no way they will go 'official' here
<dneighbo> but my group now has an easy NON MS WAY to view things :)
<dneighbo> w/o havnig to use mainframe dumb term
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<jamest> um
<jamest> why not official?
<jamest> what are the roadblocks?
<jcater> jamest: there's no 5-6 figure price tag, of course
<jcater> a government entity can't be seen saving taxpayer money
<jcater> it just ain't right!
<jcater> :)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> seriously
<jamest> is it a support issue
<jamest> ?
<stbain> save money?!?!
<stbain> blasphemy
<jamest> isn't non-ms also non-american?
<jamest> AZ has commies in it's goverment!
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<jcater> lol
<jcater> one of my guys here just used his credit union's new online account
<jcater> they have it set up where you use part of your last name + social security number + birthday
<jcater> as your initial login
<jcater> it brought up someone else's account
<jcater> is that not scary?
Action: jcater is away: lunch
<jamest> lol
<dneighbo> ok jamest
<dneighbo> main isssue is
<dneighbo> a. not 'commercial' product they 'paid for'
<dneighbo> b. its unamerican ;) (seriously its not M$ so its not american)
<dneighbo> those are 'primary' issues
<dneighbo> that and its 'read' only interface
<dneighbo> as my team doesnt have TIME to go to training on the financial system
<dneighbo> get bureaucratic approval for access etc
<dneighbo> so its easier to whip up a form that looks identical to the financial system
<dneighbo> for us to use :)
<dneighbo> btw: there is MAJOR techno phobia here
<dneighbo> because 5 or so years ago they moved to 'shrink' wrap only philosphy of software
<dneighbo> so most of the 'tech' people here know NOTHING about development
<dneighbo> so anything that sounds vaguely like it is SCARY
<jamest> it's unamerican?
Action: jamest was joking
<dneighbo> well its not the 'in' thing to do
<dneighbo> buying 'shrink wrap', 'web apps' and 'outsourcing' are the 'things' to do
<dneighbo> basically if you can let a vendor control your life thats where to be
<dneighbo> why? you ask?
<dneighbo> simple if i give ALL the control to the vendor when the shit hits the fan i can put ALL the blame on him
<dneighbo> nevermind it costs 10x more or that we cant do 90% of what we want
<dneighbo> those business pukes are too dumb to know the difference and by the time they realize it we are so locked in 'monetarily' it wont matter
<dneighbo> muhahahaha
<jamest> lol
<dneighbo> its really not funny its sad
<dneighbo> bright spot....
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<jamest> bbl
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<drochaid> hey jamest
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<jamest> hey
<jamest> wazzup?
<jamest> find more bugs?
<dneighbo> um yeah
<drochaid> lol
Action: drochaid hasn't
<dneighbo> i keep sumbitting to dev>null@gnue.org like you said
<dneighbo> but im not getting any responses back
<drochaid> lmfao
<dneighbo> maybe i should run that rm -rf * program again?
<drochaid> definately
<drochaid> from /
<dneighbo> drochaid, yeah that fixed some other apps i was having too
<drochaid> very good defrag package :)
<dneighbo> but i cant seem to find my .mp3s after the reinstall
<jcater> well, first let's see what files are on your filesystem... just do a cat > /dev/hda
<dneighbo>  /exec -o cat > /dev/hda2
<dneighbo> that would be a nice little xchat command for those 28.8 dial up folks :)
<dneighbo> now children, can you spell FLOOD ;)
<dneighbo> and jamest no its not FLUD (unless you use that damn  TN dictionary)
Action: drochaid pats his cable modem
<jcater> hey, now
Action: dneighbo looks at his redneck dictionary.....
<jcater> we don't have fluds down here
<dneighbo> hmm
<jcater> occasionally that thar river rises, tho
<dneighbo> flud: too much water fer yer, damn damn bustered (see mud) 
<jcater> :)
<dneighbo> mud: all that damn water from da flud made dirt into mud (see dirty)
<dneighbo> dirty: covered in mud (see whoopin)
<dneighbo> whoopin: what happens if ma finds out you are dirty
<dneighbo> ok this is too funny: from an email today
<dneighbo> There is a new style of dating that is becoming more popular every day. What is
<dneighbo> it?...
<dneighbo> SPEED DATING!!
Action: dneighbo is VERY glad he is not single
<dneighbo> i think married folks call this a 'quickie'
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Action: drochaid wants to know more about this speed dating :)
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Action: jcater wants to know more about this concept of "dating"
<drochaid> lol
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<ICJ> Hi!
<drochaid> hey ICJ
<ICJ> Hi!
<ICJ> are you all asleep?
<drochaid> I am :)
<ICJ> hehe
<ICJ> btw: Why isn't there a mailing list with CVS commit messages?
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<slamb> jamest, that rollback thing you changed now does work for pypgsql. I'm happy. :)
<jamest> ICJ: there is
<ICJ> oh cool
<jamest> http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/commit-gnue
<jamest> looks like it's not listed on our web site :(
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> that may be a good thing :)
<slamb> ergh. it doesn't use unidiffs.
<jcater> we have no control over that :(
<ICJ> and as it does not start with gnue-, it is even hard to find on mail.gnu.org
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<dneighbo> fwiw: generally we hope only those really interested find it :)
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<dneighbo> as admining a bunch of mail to commit is a pain :)
<ajmitch> morning all
<jamest> postgresql 7.2 is out
<jamest> mmmmmmm
<drochaid> :o
<drochaid> M EWANT
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<stbain> jamest: where U C that?
<jamest> postgresql general mailing list
<jamest> highlights include
<jamest> vacuum no longer locks tables
<jamest> and get this
<jamest>    Transactions
<jamest>            There is no longer a problem with installations that exceed
<jamest>            four billion transactions.
<jcater> oooo
<jamest> at last they'll be able to track the number of hamburgers sold at mcdonalds
<jcater> maybe I can use it now
<ICJ> yes ...
<ICJ> but I don't suppose MCD sells 4 billion hamburgers at a time ...
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<jcater> 4 billion simultanous transactions?
<jcater> or 4 billion cumulative
<jcater> I thought it had to do w/non-recycling of transaction ids
<ICJ> ic
[15:29] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<ICJ> that is then really bad, I agree
<drochaid> but oids looped back to the start when they hit the max value
<ICJ> args
<jcater> fyi
<jcater> PostgreSQL's MVCC transaction semantics depend on being able to compare transaction ID (XID) numbers: a tuple with an insertion XID newer than the current transaction's XID is "in the future" and should not be visible to the current transaction. But since transaction IDs have limited size (32 bits at this writing) an installation that runs for a long time (more than 4 billion transactions) will suffer transaction ID wraparound: the 
<jcater> unter wraps around to zero, and all of a sudden transactions that were in the past appear to be in the future --- which means their outputs become invisible. In short, catastrophic data loss. (Actually the data is still there, but that's cold comfort if you can't get at it.) 
<jcater> so it was number of transactions since the last vacuum or database init
<jamest> so it would have been hard core to hit it
<jamest> as the lack of vacuming would slowly kill performance
<jamest> unless you were doing _lots_ of little inserts w/ few updates
<drochaid> doh
<drochaid> well, at least I was right about the wrap around :D
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<chillywilly> hello
<jcater> run!
<chillywilly> eh
<chillywilly> did someone say something?
<ajmitch> yes
<ajmitch> run!
<chillywilly> what?
<chillywilly> anybody out there....
<chillywilly> guess not
Action: drochaid grabs his coat on the way out
<ajmitch> drochaid: i thought you had lovely sunny weather there? ;)
Action: jcater dcc's chillywilly a hearing aid
<drochaid> always ajmitch <ggrrrr>
Action: chillywilly thinks he hears the wind or something
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<drochaid> what does that tell you about the weather?
<drochaid> hey chillywilly
<chillywilly> ello
<ajmitch> drochaid: sounds like NZ
<drochaid> ajmitch: yes, but you get NICE rain ... we get evil vicious violent rain
Action: chillywilly gives all hecklers a good trout beating
<chillywilly> this means YOU --> jcater, ajmitch
<ajmitch> jcater: you hear anything?
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<jcater> hear something?
<jcater> not I
<jamest> lol
<jamest> i irst read that as
<chillywilly> ues?
<chillywilly> er, yes
<jamest>  jcater dcc's chillywilly a herring aid
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> that would've been funny
<jamest> too much fish on the brain i guess
Action: chillywilly does the crappie dance on jamest's head
<chillywilly> btw, life sucks and then you die
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<chillywilly> heh, I wish
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<jamest> l8r
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<chillywilly> they had these bigg ass bong-like things were they would distill stuff in
Action: chillywilly notices he still has the obsolete sticker he stole on his shirt
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<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly> :'(
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<dneighbo> so rms is finally PUBLICALLY asking miggy 'whats up?
Action: dneighbo wishes he didnt purge mail 6 months ago
<dneighbo> as i had a mail from like 2 years ago
<dneighbo> where i went off on about licensing and copyright in gnome projects
<dneighbo> and rms came running to miggy's defense
<dneighbo> and a several mail exchange occurred
<chillywilly> where?
<dneighbo> basically my argument was 'today its libgda' license change tomorrow what gnome?
<drochaid> miggy?
<dneighbo> and rms said oh no no no ;)
<dneighbo> miggy = miguel
<drochaid> ah
<chillywilly> where did rms go of on miggy?
<chillywilly> where?!?!
<dneighbo> in brazil
<chillywilly> I gotta read this
<chillywilly> is there a story about it?
<dneighbo> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23939.html
<dneighbo> sorry was trying to get it for you but am on an OLD machine
<dneighbo> so gui things like galeon are a bit slow :)
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> thanks dude
<dneighbo> he didnt 'go off' as much
<chillywilly> heheh
<dneighbo> as say i dont BELEIVE that miguel woudl say that (re .net comments)
<chillywilly> I like the title though
<dneighbo> then when people said no he said that
<drochaid> GUI?? pah
<dneighbo> rms said he wanted miggy to come to the FS community and explain him self
<dneighbo> basically giving him ever out
<dneighbo> this will get ugly quick
<dneighbo> as miggy will take exception as there is a 'feud' between him and rms
<drochaid> you don't use a direct brain interface yet?
<dneighbo> and i think it come to a fork in gnome
<dneighbo> if it gets 'really' ugly
<chillywilly> good let them have their mono fork
<chillywilly> I could guve a rats ass
<jcater> lol
<jcater> "
<jcater> So if you didn't see this one coming, you simply haven't been paying attention. "
<chillywilly> heh, at least one Gnome hacker tols miguel to fuck off ;)
<chillywilly> er, told
<dtm> )!@(*#)
<chillywilly> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/2002-February/msg00004.html
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<dtm> jamest: hi
<chillywilly> The failure of the Bonobo experiment should make us cautious about
<chillywilly> adopting Microsoft technologies too quickly in the future. I see the
<chillywilly> Mono project as interesting but as relevant to GNOME as Wine or Samba
<chillywilly> are.
<chillywilly> Ian
<dtm> chillywilly: who said that
<jamest> hi
<chillywilly> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-hackers/2002-February/msg00004.html
<chillywilly>     * From: Ian McKellar <yakk yakk net>
<chillywilly> so, if we steer clear of Mono BS, then ximian will leave GNUe alone?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
Action: chillywilly likes havoc's response in that thread
<drochaid> all trees report to reception
Nick change: drochaid -> drochaid[zZz]
<dneighbo> chilly ofr uus RAM challenged can you paste his response?
<jamest> ?
<jamest> dneighbo: can you say that in english?
<jamest> ofr uus RAM challenged?
<chillywilly> sure
<chillywilly> Hi,
<chillywilly> I think we should avoid this particular thread and focus on GNOME
<chillywilly> 2. Not that I've successfully avoided it in the past - but maybe we
<chillywilly> can learn from my mistakes. ;-)
<chillywilly> Havoc
<dneighbo> jamest i figured if ANYONE would get that poor grammer it would be you :)
<jamest> :)
Action: dneighbo needs to sucker jcater into looking into that ssh improvement he hinted to before
Action: dneighbo is TICKLED pink that i can use xchat now from here w/ port forwarding and remote X
<dneighbo> but jcater hinted there was another level to his madness that might make things even quicker :)
<dneighbo> i think that anyone who uses pcanyhow and friends
<dneighbo> that uses unix and x and ssh and things
<dneighbo> would not use windows for long
<dneighbo> the remote capabilities still just blow me away
<dneighbo> cvs, ssh, x, rsync etc etc etc
<dneighbo> i mean the idea of a switch box in the unix world is almost obscene
<dneighbo> at home i created an account for wife
<dneighbo> and login on console 1 as me and startx
<chillywilly> a "switch box"?
<dneighbo> login on console 2 as wife and startx 
<dneighbo> and use ctl-alt-f7(f8)
<dneighbo> to switch between them
<dneighbo> its a beautiful thing
<chillywilly> indeed
<chillywilly> multi-user systems tend to be cool like that
<dneighbo> yes cool because dont ahve to 'logout'
<dneighbo> and we can share a system
<dneighbo> and have our own SETTINGS
<dneighbo> as she would get ticked if i used her windows box as i would shut stuff down she had open and vice versa
<dneighbo> i think w/ new machine (faster) she will come to love linux
<dneighbo> since put her on my laptop (p3 128mb) have had no complaints
<dneighbo> she is using mozilla, galeon and ghostview like a champ
<dneighbo> it amazes at some stuff she does and im like how did you do that?
<dneighbo> or better yet how did you know how to do that
<dneighbo> most of its just stupid stuff i missed
Action: chillywilly thinks that brazilian site is lagged now because of the regoster article
<dneighbo> like she has it now set to open pdf's with ghostview automagically
<chillywilly> using nautilus?
<dneighbo> and she is a ghostview masta
<dneighbo> no using galeon
<chillywilly> ah
<dneighbo> or mozilla mail
Action: chillywilly only lets nautilus draw his desktop
<chillywilly> it's sucks for anything else
<chillywilly> imho
<dneighbo> im afraid to give her nautilus :)
<dneighbo> maybe midnight commander
<dneighbo> i like concept of nautilus for the kids and wife
<dneighbo> i personally dont see large value in it
<chillywilly> gnome-terminal has "value" :P
<dneighbo> i used to like 'a files system explorer' and thought cli was shit for such things
<dneighbo> UNTIL
<dneighbo> i moved to unix
<dneighbo> and found TAB complete
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> grep
<jamest> and
<dneighbo> now i cant imagine using anything else and being productive
<jamest> the power of rm -rf /
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> jamest: yes the list goes on with the and's :)
<jamest> plus
<jcater> oooo, oooo
<jcater> let's not forget the joy of compiling a custom kernel
<jamest> when miss masta is comming in the front door
<jcater> everyone should have that thrill
<dneighbo> jcater: havent done that
<chillywilly> jcater: yes, they should
<jamest> mv p<tab> core
<jcater> dneighbo: don't
<jamest> is way faster than 
<dneighbo> though you or nick or mdean walked me through doing a custom prebuilt debian kernel
<jamest> mv porno-collection-jan-2002 core
<dneighbo> i.e. optimized kernel
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<jcater> jamest: indeed
<jamest> 6months from now
<jcater> but the greatest feet is "Ctrl+Alt+F1"
<jcater> "no, honey... just working in vi"
<jcater> "on a 21" monitor??"
<jamest> laurie: I noticed you had a 375GB core file in your home dir so I purged it
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> noooo!
<dneighbo> overwrite goat_anal.png [Y] _
<chillywilly> ew
<jcater> bbiaf... no talking bad about chillywilly until I get back
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<dneighbo> hahaha
<chillywilly> he's so lame
<jamest> hope he hurrys
<chillywilly> you would
<jamest> :)
<jamest> anyone here use sapdb?
<chillywilly> it's ok though, I don't need anyone to like me
<chillywilly> I'm my own best friend
<chillywilly> hello me, it's me again
<jamest> :)
<jamest> sweatting bullets!
<chillywilly> :D
<chillywilly> you're a big megadeth fan aren't you?
Action: jamest opens xmms 
<chillywilly> beat you to it
<chillywilly> :P
<jamest> big enough
<jamest> i own most their newer stuff
<chillywilly> bah
Action: chillywilly is old school
<chillywilly> hanger 18 is a kewl song
<chillywilly> you know that one?
<jamest> nope
<chillywilly> it's off rust in peace, iirc
<jamest> um
<jamest> Forms bugs......
<chillywilly> :(
<jamest>   anyone got any ?
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly>  thought you were saying you found some
<chillywilly> my bad
<jamest> oh i have a list
<chillywilly> hehe
<jamest> but I'll keep them to myself :)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> that's no fair
<jamest> actually
<jamest> i have one
<jamest> required doesn't seem to be honored
<jamest> the rest are new features i need to get up asap
<chillywilly> i c
Action: chillywilly takes notes on ch. 2 of the ODMG book
<chillywilly> you like jimi jamest?
<chillywilly> jimi, jamest
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest> ?
<chillywilly> er, do you like jimi hendrix
<jamest> nope
<chillywilly> that's what I mean
<chillywilly> no?
<jamest> very little
<jamest> of his stuff appeals
<chillywilly> eh?
<chillywilly> speak enlgish plz
<chillywilly> er, english even
<jamest> i don't care for very many songs from that time period
<jamest> a few of his are ok
<chillywilly> heh
<jamest> but I wouldn't buy the album
<chillywilly> you are an odd duck you know that
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<chillywilly> what about pink floyd or led zepplin?
<jamest> pink floyd r0cks
<jan> Hi!
<chillywilly> you gotta get into the old shit, most music now days is shit
<jamest> led zepplin are so/so
<jamest> hi
Action: chillywilly notes that make 0 sense
<chillywilly> ah well
<chillywilly> jamest: I can't help it my dad was a cool guy
<chillywilly> turned me onto all the old stuff
<jamest> jimi or robert?
Action: jamest runs
<jamest> wazzup jan
<chillywilly> jamest: ummm, I speak of my dad in the past tense because he's dead
<jamest> ah
<jan> I 've continued the php client.... 
<jamest> cool
<chillywilly> he died in 1996
<chillywilly> when I was 18
<jamest> my buddy had that happen too
<jamest> brain tumor
<chillywilly> well you may not believe it but my dad has severe asthma
<jamest> jan: so any new features?
<chillywilly> he had a severe attack one night and his heart stopped
<chillywilly> s/has/had
<jamest> ouch
<chillywilly> "had severe asthma"
<chillywilly> is what I mean to say
<jan> simple query on an database, input data into cache, marking as deleted, adding new rows, an About box, and ...
<jan> some bugs ;-)
<chillywilly> mmmm, beefy
<jamest> :)
<jamest> cool
<jamest> is the techref working out for you?
<jan> I try to put it on a server, so you can have a look..
<chillywilly> id there an html version of that jamest?
<jamest> cool
<chillywilly> s/id/id
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> s/id/is
<jamest> um
<jamest> i don't know
<jamest> there is a txt version
<chillywilly> oh
<jamest> and a pdf
<jamest> but IIRC i had trouble w/ html version
<chillywilly> where's the pdf?
<chillywilly> is it current?
<jamest> well
<jamest> not w/ cvs is isn't
<jan> techref is ok, but lyx cannot display long tables properly
<chillywilly> darn
<jamest> as this weeks changes have not made it in
<jamest> jan: if you're getting serious about this we need to coord better so we don't break stuff on you
<jan> I'm serious, but I dont know what you wanna change, that is so big, that it breaks my stuff.
<chillywilly> easily installing lyx would require me to add the non-free section to sources.list, something I am not willing to do....but anyway I'm not going to go make an ass of myself again ;P I'll just beg jamest to make a different format ;P
<jamest> chillywilly: I'll try and do better at making .txt up to date
<jamest> and put on site
<chillywilly> thanks :)
<jan> An different format would be great. (f.e. plain latex)
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<jamest> ok 
<chillywilly> man it's cold down here
<chillywilly> hi jc
Nick change: mZdZeZaZn -> mdean
<chillywilly> ello mdean
<mdean> howdy y'all
<jcater> howdy
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> jcater: you made it back in record time
<chillywilly> it was like you weren't even gone
Action: chillywilly is debating on whether that was a good thing or not ;P
<chillywilly> brb
<chillywilly> back
<chillywilly> sup niggas?
<chillywilly> what's the dilly yo?
<chillywilly> jamest: do you like Pantera?
<jamest> yip
<chillywilly> kewl
<chillywilly> how about some Sepultura?
<chillywilly> Slayer
<chillywilly> ?
<jamest> not listened to them
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> oh another old band I like is Rush
<chillywilly> oooh, looks like there was a new galeon release
<chillywilly> p://lists.gnome.org/archives/gnome-devel-list/2002-February/msg00028.html
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> http://lists.gnome.org/archives/gnome-devel-list/2002-February/msg00028.html
<dneighbo> chilly if you like limp bizkit or kid rock 
<dneighbo> you should check out pillar
<dneighbo> must run bye bye
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<chillywilly> gah
<chillywilly> I don't like either of those bands
<chillywilly> the whole rock+rap thing is lame, imho
<chillywilly> in fact I spend a lot of time making fun of those bands ;P
<mdean> http://www.opeth.com/ http://www.otepsaves.com/ http://www.inflames.com/ http://www.darktranquillity.com/ http://www.amorphis.net/ http://www.gathering.nl/
<chillywilly> anyone ever here of the gufs?
Action: chillywilly is away: food
<jcater> "Women and cats do as they please.  Men and dogs had best learn to live with it."
<jcater> hehe
<jan> Take a look: http://131.220.92.80/~jan/gfc.php 
<jan> One Tip. Just press Query to execute an query.
<jan> prepare query is not implemented yet.
<jan> eeh and you have to activate javascript.
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<jamest> do i have to have a local gfd?
<jamest> i don't have any db that I have open to the net
<jan> no. just use the database demo and press the query button
<jcater> jamest: if you have mozilla installed, try that... konq didn't work for me
<jcater> (would never populate the database)
<jan> I 'm using mozilla, so i don't know how other browsers interpret my javascript
<jcater> btw, that's cool
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<jan> I m no MASTER OF THE JAVASCRIPT, so if anybody knows how to submit a form with an image button, ...
<jan> and tell the server that it is submit  button no. 1 and not submit button no. 2, in a way IE, konq, netscape 4.x and mozilla understand,...
<jamest> that is cool
<jan> please tell me.
Action: jcater knows nothing about javascript
<jamest> same here
<jan> ok, so use mozilla.
<mdean> jan: you working on forms php driver?
<jan> yeah. I try to.
<mdean> sweet
<mdean> you need some js help?
<jan> yes, because the docu is so bad.
<mdean> I can help you with that
<jan> I've try to catch an key event like "page down", but it dont work. 
<jan> Just "ALT-P" and "ALT-N" are working now.
<jan> mdean: this is great.
<mdean> key events aren't available for all keys :-(
<jan> Is "PAGE-UP/DN" available under MS IE?
<mdean> not sure - I can find out tho
<slamb> Hmm. It may not be necessary to use javascript to do your graphical submit buttons.
<slamb> I'm looking at W3C spec. You can have multiple submit buttons and you can have graphical ones.
<slamb> It says "If a form contains more than one submit button, only the activated submit button is successful." Which I think means only its values are submitted, so you can know which was clicked.
<slamb> Give me a second and I'll actually try it.
<mdean> ja - but if you need to change form data or the action based on which button, you probably need it
<slamb> If you need to do any sort of validation, yeah. but the action based on which button, I _think_ you don't need it.
<jan> Send a 
<jan> s/Send a//
<mdean> jan: as of IE 5.0, you can catch pg dn/up for onkeydown and onkeyup, but not onkeypress
<jan> This is great, so just for onkeydown, and it should work. 
<mdean> if you're just wanting to catch when the press a key, you should use onkeyup
<mdean> onkeydown will fire constantly while they hold the key down
<dtm> mdean: hi
<dtm> !
<mdean> dtm!
<dtm> mdean: are you pleased that i sent you mass feedback on DCL last night, or is that extra hassle for you at this point?  :)
<dtm> dont wanna bug ya
<mdean> dtm: pleased as punch
<mdean> dtm: quite a bit of that has been rectified/implemented
<dtm> grate
<dtm> ok well that's all i need to know
<dtm> :)
<ajmitch> heh
<dtm> i'd like to clean up my view of the status
<dtm> of dcl's development
<dtm> mdean: i filled my configs in last night, got it working.  it's VERY NICE
<dtm> mdean: it's come a long way, baby
<jan> slamb: now i know how to cach the image button.  I just name it and then i get an name_x and a name_y instead of x, y
<dtm> mdean: it's all growed up now
<slamb> jan: that's with js or just plain html?
<mdean> that would be html
<dtm> mdean: i haven't started really using it yet; just configuring it
<mdean> dtm: did you check out the dcl-20011107-stable branch from CVS?
<mdean> the dclgw module
<dtm> mdean: negative; i got dcl-20020120.tar.bz2
<dtm> from the project page, not from cvs
<jan> slamb: plain html
<mdean> k - you may want the CVS
<dtm> er, i mean it's .tar.gz but i made it .bz2
<dtm> mdean: care to qualify that statement? :)
<slamb> jan: cool
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<mdean> dtm: 20020120 has a bug with the drop down menus
<dtm> yeah
<mdean> dtm: did you see my news about the hyper links?
<dtm> and so tell me (and everyone else via your dcl.sf.net site) exactly which one i should use! :)
<dtm> no
<mdean> dtm: needs a maintenance release ;-)
<dtm> oh
<jan> jan: wait a moment ... Im trying to implement it.
<mdean> dtm: oh, that would be because there isn't any news on it ;-)
<dtm> ok
<mdean> dtm: you can now create links between objects in DCL via URLs
<dtm> wow
<dtm> i'll like to see that
<dtm> does that support dependancies?
<dtm> between tickets?
<mdean> dtm: i.e., dcl://workorders/7832-2 would bring up wo# 7832 seq 2
<dtm> ohhhh
<mdean> no depends
<mdean> yet
<dtm> ok
<dtm> great
<mdean> tickets and projects work the same way
<mdean> the links are available in work order notes/description, time card description, and ticket issue/resolution fields
<mdean> any http:// ftp:// or telnet:// text is also hyperlinked now
Action: dtm dcc's mdean some peach punch
<jan> slamb: switch off javascript and try again.... (just the page tabs are not converted)
<slamb> jan: hmm. save doesn't work with no js. or is that just disabled?
<jan> slamb: which save do you mean?  if you mean commit,.... commit is not working now.
<slamb> jan: yeah, that's what I meant. very impressive. :)
<jan> Thanks for your idea. Just lynx and links won't work...
<jan> ;)
<slamb> no lynx? that's terrible! ;)
<slamb> actually, what is it about lynx that makes it not work? I'm curious now.
<jan> yeah. Although not working, lynx is not to bad: links tells me: [Submit] [Submit] [Submit], but the wonderful lynx is very informativ : [tb_save.png]-Submit [tb_new.png]-Submit ...
<slamb> *nod* I saw that. (which alt="" attributes would fix, plus give tooltip hints on graphical browsers)
<jan> Ithat means, php should read out the browser id and then send a normal submit button with an name.
<slamb> oh, I see. alt="" isn't valid for <input> elements?
<jan> slamb: i think lynx doesnt like to send x,y arguments for an image he cannot display...... so if you can click on the image in lynx, it definitly will send the values ;) 
<jan> slamb: is there a possibility to give tooltip hints for input type=text fields?
<slamb> jan: not in plain html
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<jan> *sniff*
<slamb> :(
<slamb> jan: lynx is giving me .x and .y values of 0 on image submit buttons. http://www.slamb.org/test.html
<jan> slamb: great. Ive allready changed my code, but ...
<jan> what is the name="" tag? submita or a?
<slamb> submita
<jan> ok, i keep trying
<jan> Dont know why, but using gfc.php. lynx isnt submitting anything.
<slamb> jan: lynx doesn't like your enctype="text/plain"
<slamb> jan: http://www.slamb.org/test2.html is identical in every other way, but the submitted stuff from lynx is very different
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<slamb> jan: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.3 says the default for this is application/x-www-form-urlencoded
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<jan> slamb: Thanks, i will never trust any SELF written HTML course anymore.
<jan> now it should working with lynx.
<jan> and with links too. (a little bit ugly, but who wann use links or lynx if there is an python curses client ;)
<slamb> jan: cool. :)
<slamb> jan: yeah, most of the info on the web about html is pretty misleading. why I just go to the official W3 specs.
<chillywilly> sup peeps
<chillywilly> use the specs!
<chillywilly> weeeeee
<jan> Some time ago I look into the w3 docs for XML and XPATH, and it was a little bit confusing, so I didnt use it.
<jan> But looking on the HTML 4.0 spec. ... GREAT. I ve never heard about LABELS in forms etc.
<chillywilly> satan laughing spreads his wiiiings
<slamb> *nod* small catch, though: several of the things on the W3 specs aren't really done by any browser.
<slamb> so you do need to check to make sure they are.
<slamb> a lot of the stuff with tables is like that. they have headers and footers...which nothing actually uses.
<jan> I will check the "accesskey="U"
<jan> to make ALT-N  Alt-P work without javascript.
<jan> working.
<slamb> jan: works here. cool.
<jan> :)
<mdean> heh - html form labels rock - don't make checkboxes or radio buttons without 'em ;-)
<jan> whats about the rest of the UI, any ideas? In the beginning I had planned to make just the actual row in the actual block editing and now everything visible is editable. What do you think is better?
<jan> s/editing/editable
<slamb> like only the top row of that state form would have been editable before?
<jan> yes, and this method would make server side triggers possible.
<slamb> Hmm...I would probably say minimizing the number of times you have to submit/wait for the server to respond would be good
<slamb> so from that perspective, the way you have it now is much better
<jan> mdean: I never made very complicated html forms. Just buttons, and text fields. ;( But when forms is supporting checkboxes .. ;)
<jan> slamb: good. But whats about an cursor? Without cursor, how do I know which row to delete (if i don't use javascript)
<slamb> jan: I think how you have it now is probably the best you can do. No way you can know that w/o JS, so it'll always be a bit confusing to newbies. I like the way you highlight the deleted row in red.
<slamb> actually, you could have a seperate delete button for each row. but that would require a change to the form definition.
<slamb> hey, any forms people around/non-idle?
<jamest> sorta
<jamest> will be back full time in about 5 min
<jamest> back
<slamb> jamest: so I've got weirdness with a dropdown box.
<jamest> oh yeah
<slamb> there are two on a page...one works, the other isn't ever populated. I can't figure out what's different.
<slamb> or rather, what difference is important. I've tried changing the non-working one to be more like the working one in a few ways, nothing seems to help.
<jamest> you have both datatsources set to prequery=""
<slamb> yes
<jamest> that they link to
<jamest> dang, that was the easy one
<jamest> :)
<slamb> heh :)
<slamb> this may or may not be related...
<slamb> but the schema navigator is slightly wrong about the type of the id field for both.
<slamb> the non-working one has "id char primary key"
<slamb> (this is pypgsql again)
<slamb> but the schema navigator shows it as a bpchar of size 5
<jamest> ?
<jan> slamb: the cursor is working now.
<jamest> hmmm
<slamb> jamest: okay, here's the table the broken one is coming from
<slamb> create table charge_periods (
<slamb>         id              char(1) primary key,
<slamb>         description     varchar(20) not null,
<slamb>         length          interval not null
<slamb> );
<slamb> actually, it was just "char primary key" earlier. I changed it to see if that'd make a difference.
<jamest> hmmm
<slamb> jan: I like :)
<jamest> is this stuff private?
<jamest> or can you tar it up and send to me?
<slamb> jamest: sure, I can do that.
<jamest> I'd be happy to take a look
<slamb> (I've now learned my IRC NAT module actually works)
<chillywilly> mine does too ;P
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> my database is messed up
<slamb> hmm. I can add you a pgsql user here.
<jamest> nah
<jamest> i can fix mine
<slamb> well, it would not be trouble for me to.
<jamest> got it
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<slamb> oh, that create script I sent you is missing the countries table. that's the dropdown that works.
<fitzix> hello
<jamest> jo
<jamest> er
<jamest> hi
<fitzix> hey jamest, how are ya?
<fitzix> my damned DSL just came back up...
<jamest> ok
<jamest>        ERROR:  Relation 'organizations' does not exist
<slamb> yeah, it references countries. if run createadmin.sql before create-countries.sql it'll fail.
<jamest> just a sec
<jamest> I've been working on dropdown boxes here
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<jamest> so I have to change my code back
<slamb> that's encouraging to hear
<jamest> hmmm
<jamest> all 3 dropdowns work fine
<slamb> huh.
<jamest> i'd check permissions on the database
<jamest> tables
<slamb> i'm a superuser. I've got the grants.
<jamest> 2 country dropdowns work fine
<jamest> 1 interval dropdown works fine
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<slamb> the interval dropdown isn't populated for me, so I get KeyErrors when I run a query.
<jamest> i see 3 values
<jamest> monthly
<jamest> quarterly
<jamest> yearly
<slamb> *nod* that's what should be there
<jamest> are you positive that your db structure matches the create*.sql you sent
Action: jamest seems to recall dropdowns aren't real friendly about reporting problems, they tend to fail silent
<slamb> yep. got nothing in there on this machine, so I can just drop everything and run that script.
<jamest> so you are dumping and rerunning?
<slamb> yeah
<jamest> anyone know of a way from command line
<jamest> so that if i have a string "This is a fooX_24k widgulator"
<jamest> i could pull only the words that start w/  fooX
<jamest> and dump the rest
<jamest> I'm sure egrep could do this somehow
<slamb> perl -ne '/\b(fooX_.*?)\b/ and print "$&\n"' <file1> <file2> ... <filen>
<jamest> hmmm
<jcater> um, a quick python script??
<jamest> the output is from glimpse
<slamb> er, throw a g after that regexp
<slamb> if you're piping into it, just don't put on the files. it'll read from stdin.
<jamest> rock
<jamest> that's perfect
<slamb> Yeah, my Perl is much better than my Python :)
<nickr> perl is good for one liners like that
<nickr> Actually its exceptional
<nickr> except awk is faster. :)
<jcater> :)
<slamb> whatever ;)
Action: jcater was about to type an awk command before the perl got posted :)
<jcater> but, whatever works :)
<slamb> I haven't used awk since I started learning perl.
<nickr> I go for perl for the multiline solution that needs a little more magic
<nickr> awk is good for the one line simple parsing
<slamb> and since perl5 wasn't out then, it's been a while.
<nickr> Its best to know all the tools.
<nickr> Then you can use whatevers best ofc htde nihuahiot
<chillywilly> uh, yea
<chillywilly> what he said
<nickr> er
<nickr> then you can use whatever is best for the situation :)
<nickr> Line noise :)
<slamb> situation, nihuahiot...yeah, those are pretty close.
<chillywilly> very ;)
<slamb> *shrug* I've found Perl can do anything awk can just about as easily.
<slamb> I once knew awk decently well, but have since forgotten anything about it.
<nickr> I usually just use it to pick feilds out of a stream. :)
<nickr> I guess sed can do that also.
<nickr> but its more arkane.
<dsmith> nickr: You can use 
<fitzix> awk can be damned tricky
<dsmith> cut
<fitzix> nickr: awk is better because of support for columns
<nickr> cut is great if you don't have to add other stuff too
<slamb> Well, Perl has regexps, split, and unpack. Between the three, you can parse most text well.
<dsmith> nickr: You can use "cut" also, but I find the awk syntax easier to remember.
<nickr> yea
<slamb> unpack is good for fixed-width files.
<nickr> awk.
<nickr> perl would be better if each feature was a separate binary :)
<nickr> then you could use shell as the infrastructure with all the power of perl ;)
<slamb> No fork/exec necessary. which is why perl is much faster than shell.
<jamest> slamb: did dump fix issue?
<slamb> jamest: nope. same deal.
<nickr> It'd still be useful.
<jamest> wow
<jamest> thats nuts
<nickr> Not for the crazy things people use perl for, but for actual perl stuff
<slamb> jamest: yeah, I know. I had a feeling this would be a stubborn one...it was working at one point, and I don't really know what changed.
<jamest> can you run forms w/ a -d 5 
<jamest> and see what the queries look like
<jamest> or a -d 10 
<jamest> which IIRC will give you the values it's pulling from the DB
<slamb> ooh, I didn't know that flag existed.
<jamest> :)
<jamest> gfclient --help
<jamest> there's a profiling switch in there too :)
<slamb> hmm.
<slamb> DB005: [DBdriver:371] SELECT count(*) FROM charge_periods
<slamb> DB007: [DBdriver:353] Implicit Fields: {}
<slamb> DB005: [DBdriver:364] SELECT * FROM charge_periods ORDER BY length 
<slamb> DB005: [DBdriver:140] Field names set to ['id', 'description', 'length']
<slamb> DB005: [DBdriver:153] ResultSet created
<slamb> DB005: [GFEntry:320] Created for DropDown: {'': ''}
<slamb> and the exact same query typed into psql shows the values
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<jamest> DB005: [DBdriver:371] SELECT count(*) FROM charge_periods
<jamest> DB005: [DBdriver:364] SELECT * FROM charge_periods ORDER BY length
<jamest> DB005: [DBdriver:140] Field names set to ['id', 'description', 'length']
<jamest> DB005: [DBdriver:153] ResultSet created
<jamest> DB005: [GDataObjects:482] Master record changed; Notifying Detail Objects
[22:56] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<jamest> DB005: [GFEntry:320] Created for DropDown: {'Y': 'Yearly', 'M': 'Monthly', '': '', 'Q': 'Quarterly'}
<slamb> *nod* I get something like that for the countries one (but much longer; I'll save the cut'n'pasting ;)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> thanks
<jamest> hmmmm
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<jamest> this does not make sense
<slamb> hmm. do you also get in designer the schema view that isn't quite right?
<slamb> ie, it says charge_periods.id is a bpchar of size 5
<jamest> yes
<jamest> i get that
<slamb> it seems to be consistently four too high actually. a2_code is 6, a3_code is 7.
<jamest> what database version and what pypgsql driver?
<jamest> and have you tried against psycopg?
<slamb> ooh, I should try psycopg.
<slamb> database is 7.1.3, I might have also tried against 7.2rc2 at some point.
<slamb> pypgsql is 2.0
<slamb> okay, it works with psycopg
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> and it works for me
<jan> Im going to sleep. Bye
<jamest> l8r
<jamest> cool work 
<slamb> see ya
<jan> exit
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<chillywilly> and the wiiiind screeeams maaary
<slamb> I can try pypgsql 1.6, actually.
<jamest> i'm at 2.0
<slamb> hmm. that's what didn't work for me.
<slamb> 1.6 doesn't work either
<slamb> (toggling by commenting out lines in common/src/dbdrivers/pypgsql/DBdriver.py)
<slamb> oh! you know, I'm using the 7.2rc2 PostgreSQL libraries, and the pypgsql driver was linked against 7.1.3. *slaps forehead*
<slamb> I upgraded the RPM and didn't even think about it.
<jamest> lol
<slamb> wow, I'm stupid.
<chillywilly> doh!
<slamb> *red face*
<slamb> Hmm. Amazingly enough, I don't think that's the problem.
<slamb> Downgrading to the original 7.1.3 rpms I linked against and it still doesn't work.
<chillywilly> g'night
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<slamb> hmm. and recompile against that for good measure, still doesn't work.
<slamb> conclusion: it doesn't like me. *shrug*
<jamest> :(
<jamest> i don't get it
<jamest> as it's working perfectly for me
<slamb> hmm. well, I really appreciate all your time looking.
<slamb> seems like it must be something weird about my computer.
<jamest> but psycopg works?
<slamb> yeah
<jamest> sigh
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<slamb> gotta sleep.
<slamb> thanks again, jamest.
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--- Wed Feb  6 2002