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<dtm> HEHE.
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<moi_je> anybody able to programm in python. I have some problems with the installation of forms
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<psu> hi moi_je
<psu> I'm afraid early morning in Europe is prob
<psu> the worst time to catch people on this channel
<psu> especially if you want real python people ;-)
<psu> Main issue with python and GNUe
<psu> usually is that GNUe needs python 2.x
<psu> and most people have 1.5.x
<psu> the catch -
<psu> when you install 2.x 
<psu> there is a tendancy
<psu> for not all of the python tools to recognise the upgrade
<psu> so you end up with a half 1.5.x/half 2.x python install
<psu> This is actually so common 
<psu> that one of the guys has written a python-checking script
<psu> to check everything out
<derek> moi_je: you still have problems?
<derek> me i that is clever name ;)
<derek> ah well off to bed
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<Isomer> heh
<drochaid> hey Isomer
<Isomer> g'evenin'
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<btami> Hi! I am Bajusz Tamas from Hungary, and this is my first talking on IRC ever.
<jamest> hello
<btami> I'v got some problem with installing kinterbasedb win32
<btami> on the "Select python installation to use " window there is nothing to select
<btami> what is the problem (I installed python2.2 before OK)
<btami> Is anybody used kinterbasedb on win2k ?
<reinhard> btami: sorry this is a channel specialized on the gnuenterprise project
<reinhard> i guess kinterbasedb is a kde thing
<reinhard> so you might try #kde instead
<reinhard> they might be able to help you
<jamest> btami: wiat
<jamest> wait
<jamest> reinhard: that's the interbase database driver
<btami> yes
<reinhard> oh sorry
Action: reinhard goes back to his corner
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> :)
<jamest> we currently don't have a kinterbase tester
<jamest> :(
<jamest> i will say that python2.2 will give you troubles with designer
<btami> I want to be, but dont know how
<jamest> as it seems Python 2.2 left out unicode support for their stringio module :( 
<jamest> it's on the known bugs page
<jamest> however
<btami> thanks, I will try 2.1
<jamest> so you may want to drop back to python 2.1
<jamest> then
<jamest> are you wanting to develop on this stuff or just use it?
<btami> I wanting to test it on win2k
<jamest> if you wish to develop on it you would require a full python install
<jamest> however if you just want to use it
<btami> I installed 2.2 (full)
<jamest> the win32 binaries include a wrappered python w/ dependencies
<jamest> so you don't have to install anything other than the driver (in some cases)
<jamest> the one thing we can't do
<jamest> is include all the db drivers
<jamest> as their licenses restrict it
<jamest> so we play it safe and include
<jamest> postgresql, mysql, odbc
<jamest> with instructions on how to add other drivers into our install
Action: jamest wishes he knew where those instructions are
<jamest> i will look
<jamest> with this kind of setup if you get the kinterbase driver opened
<jamest> you should be able to copy support into the system
<jamest> however this has mainly been tested with Oracle
<btami> i can't use kinterbasedb from source, because it requires MS C compiler (I dont have)
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<jamest> be back in a sec (work calls)
<btami> and the kinterbasedb*.exe does not let me "select python installed to use"
<btami> but I will try to downgrade to python 2.1
<btami> tomorrow :)
<btami> by
<btami> I must go for my children
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<jamest> hello
<conrad> morning jamest
<conrad> Haven't been in here for ages. Was just sticking my nose in for a look.....  :-)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> it has been a while
<conrad> How's things going?
<jamest> great!
<jamest> for the most part
<jamest> at least for me
<jamest> i think some of us would disagree
<jamest> poor reinhard is swamped with that nasty "real work" thing
<conrad> gnue ready to take over the world yet?
Action: jamest feels for him
<conrad> Oh, know what that is like.
<jamest> um, i think we need to patch a few thing before we take over the world
<jamest> maybe in 10 years or so :)
<conrad> Cool....  :-)
<jamest> what have you been up to.....
<jamest> freeing up time so you can help out ?
<conrad> I should have another look and play with it, I suppose.
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i don't think there is a single tool that'd i'd use from tarball
<jamest> i know there are major features/changes in forms and designer in cvs
<jamest> and I believe lots of fixes for geas in cvs
<jamest> reinhard?
<conrad> Study, life, study, arguments with about our contracts, study, and life....  I think that sums up my life. :-)
<conrad> Hmmm.... maybe not the best time for me to play with it then. 
<conrad> I'm a little off building from cvs at the moment. I haven't been able to get gnucash cvs to build for about 3 months despite the fact that it works for everyone else.....
<jamest> lol
<jamest> there is a slight difference though
<jamest> we only have 129 dependencies not 136
<jamest> j/k
<conrad> :-)
<jamest> our requirements system is a lot smaller
<jamest> and
<jamest> we've got a setup script for developers
<jamest> and a diag script to tell you what is causing problems on your system
<jamest> I don't have any trouble installing it :)  
<conrad> My system is just broken.
<jamest> heck
<conrad> I have all the dependencies, but something is just stuffed.
<jamest> even Derek can get it to run
<jamest> :)
<conrad> Anyway. I should head to bed. I'll hang around for a few days (until I next fall off the server, anyway).
<jamest> ok
<jamest> :)
<conrad> Night.
Nick change: conrad -> cnrd-away
<jamest> new forms snapshot up at downloads/builds/win32
<jamest> it's created to update my network install here
<jamest> the designer one didn't work and I dont' need it here so it'll have to wait 
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<jamest> i hate windows
<jamest> had a video card go bad
<jamest> as part of the testing of the sytem i shuffled pci cards arround in the system
<jamest> didn't bother to put back in same order
<jamest> it's making me reinstall all the drivers now
<jcater> ping
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<dneighbo> jcater 
<dneighbo> For SALE again due to more flakey buyer offers..
<dneighbo> 1  Full height AIR CONDITIONED 23" telco standard RACK CABINET
<dneighbo>    dual lockable doors
<dneighbo>    HEAVY construction
<dneighbo>    completely enclosed
<dneighbo>    23" standard, 19" if adjustment brackets are purchased or made
<dneighbo>    4 posts with threading so you can back and front mount machines
<dneighbo>    1 rack mounted power strip
<dneighbo>    1 HEAVY DUTY 23" shelf
<dneighbo>    1 19" rackmount shelf on adjustment brackets
<dneighbo> this thing is in excellent condition and is PERFECT for putting in a
<dneighbo> non air conditioned space for server use.  The AC unit is in excellent
<dneighbo> condition and sucks about 10 amps when running.  this unti retails for
<dneighbo> about 6,000 new.  Im only asking *500* dollars because I need money in a
<dneighbo> hurry to pay my morgage.
<dneighbo> you had asked about 'cooling fans' or such i think for a rack
<dneighbo> this seems like a decent deal
<jcater> dang
<dneighbo> if you are interested i will go over there and report on condition for you
<dneighbo> and ship it to you
<dneighbo> even if it cost you 200 in shipping
<jcater> where'd you see this?
<dneighbo> our plug list
<dneighbo> people dont have work out here
<dneighbo> they are getting desperate
<dneighbo> btw: i think what happened was a year ago 4 or 5 MAJOR companies like insight and such scaled way back
<dneighbo> and they sold a ton of equipment at auction
<dneighbo> now the geeks that bought this stuff for 'home' use
<dneighbo> are broke and trying to unload
<jamest> ouch
<jamest> poor dude
<dneighbo> let me know if you are interested
<jcater> ok
<dneighbo> as i thought you were asking about cooling rack for ncs
<jcater> yip
Action: jamest looks in pocket to see if he has an extra $500
<jamest> drat
<jcater> I don't know what I'll do w/two racks, though :(
<jcater> but, damn, $500 
<jamest> that'd be nice in my office :)
<dneighbo> ah
<jcater> w/ac
<dneighbo> well you could sell the current rack at ncs on ebay
<jcater> btw
<jcater> I'm not so sure about NCS
<dneighbo> and just keep the air condition one
<jcater> as my barn isn't A/C'd :)
<dneighbo> ah
<jcater> j/k
Action: dneighbo would love it as im considering moving out to my garage (the office)
<jamest> traslation....laurie is kicking all his crap out of the house 
<jcater> alternate translation... the kids are getting on my nerves
<dneighbo> um
<dneighbo> want each kid to have own room
<jamest> sigh
<dneighbo> so jamest's translation is closer :)
<jcater> oh, well
<jamest> yes!
<jamest> sigh
<reinhard> hey all
<dsmith> dneighbo: one kid per room is a strange and wonderous thing.
<jamest> #debian is so helpfull
<reinhard> jamest: thanks for feeling with me about swamped with real work
<reinhard> but to be honest i was /sleeping/
<jamest> shhhh
<reinhard> :)
<jamest> i wont' tell
<jamest> hey 
<jamest> i have a debian question that #debian ignores
<jamest> is there some apt-get or dpkg trick to force reinstall of entire system
<jamest> a crash took the GUI partially down
<dneighbo> can you do like
<dneighbo> apt-get dist-upgrade
<jamest> and dkpg --install *
<jamest> with a dkpg-reconfigure -a 
<jamest> isn't working
<jamest> dneighbo: doubt it as I did that 1 day before the crash
<jamest> so it's fairly up to date
<jamest> but i'll try
<dneighbo>  dpkg --get-selections | cut -f1 | \
<dneighbo>      xargs apt-get --reinstall install
<dneighbo> that must have scared him off
<jcater> omg
<jcater> dneighbo:  just taught me a new command
<jcater> :)
Action: jamest blinks
<dneighbo> actually dont do that
<dneighbo> it does deinstalled packages too
<dneighbo> use this instead
<dneighbo> dpkg --get-selections | awk '$2 ~ /^install$/ { print $1 }'
<jcater> um
<jcater> this can't be dneighbo
<jcater> who are you?
<jamest> jcater didn't know a command?
<jamest> this isn't my universe...please let me off
<dneighbo> jamest: i assume he knew it, he just forgot he knew it
Action: jcater didn't know "cut"
<jcater> always used awk
<dneighbo> jamest is getting a class a mind raping
<dneighbo> dneighbo knows something
<dneighbo> and jcater doesnt know a command
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<jamest> what floored me
<jamest> was the use of the xargs command
<jamest> didn't think too many people knew that one
<jamest>  /msg jcater i think he's been studying up so that he's less likely to fall for our rm -rf / style solutoins to his problems
<dneighbo> rofl
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<dneighbo> jamest: let me know if that works
<dneighbo> im too chicken to try it here :)
<jamest> :)
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<jamest> won't work
<jamest> the env gets messed up for ash
<jcater> sigh
<jamest> however it's what I need to make  ascript
<jcater> I'm in sysadmin hell
<jcater> 40 women who haven't seen a sysadmin in 2 months
<jcater> and have steno books full of "notes"
Action: jamest feels sorry for jcater
<jamest> i bet they don't even have doughnuts
<jcater> no!
<jcater> they don't
<jcater> the only thing this town is "famous" for is it's "Slug Burgers"
Action: jcater whines
Action: jcater needs real food
<dsmith> jcater: What town?
<jcater> Selmer, TN
<jamest>  dpkg --get-selections | awk '$2 ~ /^install$/ { print "apt-get install --reinstall -y " $1 }' > ~/reinst
<jamest> then I run the script
<jamest> seems to be happier that way
Action: jamest makes note.....must learn more about awk
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> so it works?
<jamest> won't know for a while
<dneighbo> um in python how do you do a case statement or elseif?
<dneighbo> i dont have my python book with me
<jamest> if ():
<jamest>   blah
<jamest> elif:
<dneighbo> ah
<jamest>   blah
<dneighbo> i tried elseif and else if
<dneighbo> muchas gracias
<jamest> n oprob
<dneighbo> how can you do compound conditionals?
<dneighbo> like
<jamest> ?
<dneighbo> if (myfoo == "") AND (yourfoo == ""):
<dneighbo> it doesnt seem to like AND
<dneighbo> is it &&
<jamest> and should work
<dneighbo> and ||
<dneighbo> or something
<jcater> dneighbo: python is case-sensitive
<dneighbo> ah
Action: dneighbo thwacks self in head
<jamest> oooo
<jamest> let us do that!
<dneighbo> that fixed it
<dneighbo> dont need the elif now :)
<dneighbo> as i can just make really ugly if instead
<jamest> dneighbo: you have glimpse?
<dneighbo> um not on here i dont think
<dneighbo> but im on debian so wouldnt be hard to get
<dneighbo> why?
<dneighbo> sigh how do you set env options to be permanent
<dneighbo> like http_proxy
<jcater> either as root, vi /etc/profile
<jcater> or ~/.bash_profile
Action: jcater would recommend the /etc/profile if this is your workstation/personal machine
Action: dneighbo still wants to know why jamest wanted to know if i had glimpse
<jamest> dneighbo: as you can glimpseindex the gnue cvs tree
<jamest> and get lots and lots of examples of python 
<dneighbo> ah
<jamest> glimpse and | grep if
<dneighbo> wright:/home/dneighbo# apt-get install glimpse
<dneighbo> Reading Package Lists... Done
<dneighbo> Building Dependency Tree... Done
<dneighbo> Package glimpse has no available version, but exists in the database.
<dneighbo> This typically means that the package was mentioned in a dependency and
<dneighbo> never uploaded, has been obsoleted or is not available with the contents
<dneighbo> of sources.list
<dneighbo> E: Package glimpse has no installation candidate
<dneighbo> wright:/home/dneighbo# 
<jamest> drat
<dneighbo> sigh
<dneighbo> maybe tomorrow :)
<jamest> i don't know why they did that
<jamest> it has been gone a long time now
<dneighbo> um maybe we should ask in #debian
<dneighbo> jcater should i just fax you my steno pad?
<stbain> can't you just tar.gz that steno pad and email it to him?
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<jcater> dneighbo: eh?
<chillywilly> man
<chillywilly> somebody's IIS server is cracked
<chillywilly> 61.70.112.233 - - [12/Feb/2002:04:06:05 -0600] "GET /default.ida?NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u9090%u8190%u00c3%u0003%u8b00%u531b%u53ff%u0078%u0000%u00=a  HTTP/1
<chillywilly>  325 "-" "-"
<dneighbo> <jcater> 40 women who haven't seen a sysadmin in 2 months
<dneighbo> <jcater> and have steno books full of "notes"
Action: dneighbo was wondering if i could fax my steno pad :)
<jcater> sure
<jcater> I need more kindling for the fire
<jcater> dudes!
<jcater> if you are religious at all
<jcater> please keep my cousin Lee in your prayers
<chillywilly> what's wrong?
<jcater> this morning, he was putting a stick of wood in his wood stove
<jcater> and apparently there was a gas leak elsewhere
<jcater> his trailer no longer exists
<jcater> and he's in ICU
<jamest> wow
<chillywilly> man
<jamest> i'm sorry to hear that
<jamest> anyone else hurt?
<jcater> not to my knowledge
<dneighbo> momma
<dneighbo> that is ouchie
<jcater> he was separated, so kids and wife were elsewhere
<dneighbo> i think burns have to be the WORST kind of injury
<chillywilly> hmm
<chillywilly> this is interesting
<chillywilly> oh wait
<dneighbo> chillywilly you investigate gnu friends web site yet?
<dsmith> jcater: Where does your cousin live?
<dneighbo> and fsdn - free software developers network
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> what are you talking about?
<dneighbo> appears they are going ot try to mimic osdn
<chillywilly> who is?
<dneighbo> as i know rms is clamoring for a free software version of sourceforge
<chillywilly> that would be cool
<dneighbo> gnu friends seems like slashdot
<chillywilly> I see
<dneighbo> and there was talk of free software version of freshmeat
<chillywilly> interestin
<dneighbo> chillywilly cool but stupid
<chillywilly> where did you hear about this?
<dneighbo> if they want to make a flippin difference
<chillywilly> in the news?
<dneighbo> code something that needs coding
<dneighbo> dont code something that just replaces word open with free
<dneighbo> sigh
<dneighbo> :(
<chillywilly> I disagree
<chillywilly> open source is too liberal and does not do good for the movement
<chillywilly> you even have admitted this yourself
<chillywilly> SF is a prime example
<chillywilly> it is now going the way of prop.
<chillywilly> we need Free resources
<dneighbo> in that instance i think its ok
<chillywilly> but we do have advogato
<chillywilly> wrt gnu friends
<dneighbo> take thier last gpl release and make/maintain a free fork
<chillywilly> that's what savannah is
<dneighbo> but up until recently it was gpl
<chillywilly> and I am sure it will be hacked on and mutated
<dneighbo> anyhow no time to argue
<chillywilly> form that code base
<chillywilly> er, from
Action: jcater thinks you should look at the "spirit" of the project
<jcater> not the use of words "open sourcE" and "free"
<jcater> dsmith: he's in New Albany, MS
<chillywilly> it's about having our voice, the FS philosophy is definitely not the same as OS
<jcater> "our" ... I'd prefer not to be pigeon holed :)
<chillywilly> you prefer not to be associated witht eh FS community?
Action: jcater doesn't have time to argue either, though
<jcater> chillywilly: you are putting words in my mouth
<jcater> of course I like to be associated w/FS community
<chillywilly> how is one supposed to take that statement then?
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I gotta work
<chillywilly> then work
<jcater> yessa, boss, sir
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> I am no boss
<chillywilly> just merely ststing I will not be offended if you have to go work, instaed of arguing with me ;)
<chillywilly> er, stating
<jcater> :)
<jcater> cd ..
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Action: drochaid pricks his ears
<drochaid> did someone say 'argue' ? :)
<chillywilly> you wanna go?
<drochaid> heh
<drochaid> always ;)
Action: chillywilly is ready
<chillywilly> but you have to disagree with me first, not sense in arguing for aguement's sake
<drochaid> can't be bothered reading up .. what we arguing about?
<chillywilly> s/not/no
<chillywilly> bah
<drochaid> do I have to agree with my argument, or can I just argue blindly and illogically?
<chillywilly> there will be no arguments for argument's sake here
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> chillywilly was just saying we should be intolerant of anyone "Open Source" and mail bomb their petty SourceForge site
<jcater> and DoS the OSDN sites
<chillywilly> no, but we are Free to disgaree and do things our way
<chillywilly> than you very much
<drochaid> lol
<dneighbo> chillywilly i think the problem is in someways
<drochaid> I couldn't care less about the petty politics of 'open' vs 'free'
<dneighbo> idealistically i think that FSF is good barometer
<dneighbo> but practically they are a little over the top
<dneighbo> example...
<dneighbo> i think Christianity as a faith sets forth good values
<dneighbo>   -- thus i think abortion is wrong
<dneighbo> now there are a few ways i can 'cause' this
<dneighbo> 1. is educate people
<dneighbo> 2. is have a tender heart to those in that situation
<dneighbo> 3. is picket/protest
<chillywilly> don't tell me the FSF implemetations is equivalent to bombing abortion clinics
<dneighbo> 4. is threaten and harass anyone that has done or performs this
<dneighbo> 5. is i can physically harm those that do this
<dneighbo> i thikn FSF hs been a 3 for a long time
Action: jcater prefers the 1 and 2 route
<dneighbo> but more and more they are becoming a 4
<dneighbo> i think would denounce a 5
<dneighbo> so im not saying thats what they do
<chillywilly> show me where they are harassing ppl?
<dneighbo> i tend to think that 1 and 2 are more EFFECTIVE ways of fixing the problem
<dneighbo> chillywilly : visit their booth sometime
<chillywilly> some ppl go overboard
<dneighbo> talk to rms or bkuhn for an hour sometime
<chillywilly> doesn't mean that's the way it should be done or the way things are being done
<dneighbo> they claime much of thier 4 is (harassing) is really education
<chillywilly> I have spoken to bradley before
Action: drochaid prefers option 6 [unlisted] ... be tolerant and accept that they do not share your view and have no reason to subscribe to your view point
<dneighbo> i.e. let me interrupt you while you speak for an hour every 30 seconds to tell you how wrong you are
<chillywilly> my only rms encounter was so he could yell at me for saying 
<dneighbo> is good 'education'
<chillywilly> 'Linux'
<chillywilly> which was gay
<chillywilly> sorry, lame
<dneighbo> drochaid i list your option six as more a 1 or 2
<dneighbo> er 2
<jcater> chillywilly: if FSF was about 1 or 2, then they would be exhibiting at COMDEX, et al
<drochaid> okies dneighbo ... just a terminology problem there :)
<jcater> and not setting up shop a LWE to bitch about the L part
<dneighbo> well i see 6 as an 'i dont care' 2 :)
<dneighbo> unless you generally are mean spirited :)
<drochaid> no, don't care is very definately not the case
<dneighbo> when i mean dont care, i mean you dont care about changing their belief
<chillywilly> tell me what this has to do with FSDN and GNU friends?
<drochaid> realisation that some people will NEVER agree with you, and the will to live in peace is more the point
<jcater> why would there be a FSDN?
<jcater> because of the F vs O
<jcater> ?
Action: jcater has never seen OSDN be Free-unfriendly
<jcater> quite the opposite
<jcater> so what is the purpose of FSDN other than a statement/division?
<dneighbo> fwiw: i wasnt saying these things are horrid or vile or not even useful
<dneighbo> i was calling attention to are we spending time wisely?
<chillywilly> who is in charge of OSDN?
<chillywilly> VA?
<dneighbo> probably
<dneighbo> chillywilly point is why does it matter
<chillywilly> I rest my case
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> that's no case
<jcater> that's called an excuse
<chillywilly> you talk to loic and you find out just how friendly they are about contributiung code to SF
<jcater> sometimes I feel that the whole FS movement is in its "teenage" years... i.e., always right and always able to do it better than everyone else (not that this is wrong, but it's the whole cocky attitude)
<chillywilly> seriously if you were a real OS advocate you would be a FS advocate by default, but VA, ESR, et. al. don;t even fit into that category
<jcater> labeling is a very dangerous thing to do
<dneighbo> so SF didnt take his patches
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<dneighbo> were they valid patches?
<chillywilly> it was all well and good
<dneighbo> if they were then he has a real gripe and a real reason to fork
<chillywilly> they wanted him to sign copyright over to then so they could take his stuff and roll it into their prop. product
<dneighbo> and he should EDUCATE (see item 1) in a polite way (see item 2) about the problems 
<chillywilly> I dunno about you
<chillywilly> that doesn't sound appealing to me
<dneighbo> iirc he basically threw his cards on the table and stomped away
<dneighbo> and sounded like a baby not getting his way
<chillywilly> he did
<jcater> chillywilly: well, copyright assignment is not unusual
<dneighbo> losing ALL credibility to anyone outside the FS movement directly
<jcater> and to extrapolate simply based on that point is a futile exercise
<dneighbo> now that said i respect loic and i understand his frustrations but i think they could have been handled better
<jcater> it's not at all unusual for a project to accept patches, the patches must be under the same/close license
<chillywilly> you think VA is going to give an inch at all?
<dneighbo> in essence look what it did
<dneighbo> a. anyone not in fs camp simply utter 'damn little FSF zealot whinners shut up already'
<dneighbo> b. anyone in fs camp said, 'wow what a suprise va linux has head up butt'
<dneighbo> so really who wins?
<dneighbo> im not saying he shoudl have waited on VA
<dneighbo> but i think he could of brought things public in a cordial way
<dneighbo> giving VA linux the chance to either
<dneighbo> a. fix the problems
<dneighbo> b. say something dumb (put foot in mouth)
<chillywilly> heh, FS ppl always look like whiners....so to comabt this what do you do? You put your money where your mouth and build something for the sake of freedom
<dneighbo> c. lay silent in which case (silence is guilt)
<chillywilly> but then you get those who like to complain oh we should bbe doing this
<dneighbo> chillywilly i couldnt agree more
jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) returned to #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> sorry, but GNU has never really been totally about doing something technologically superior but providing a Free alternative
<chillywilly> I mena heck why are we here...we could just use SAP or something
<dneighbo> correct
<dneighbo> im not sure what point you are arguing here
<dneighbo> no one said fsf should be about freedom
<dneighbo> we were arguing about the best way to combat non freedom (remember the 1 - 5 list) :)
<chillywilly> but somehow you don;t like how they go about trying to get that freedom
<dneighbo> correct
<dneighbo> i like american freedom for example (what little is left) ;)
<dneighbo> but i dont advocate we drop bombs on people to keep it
<chillywilly> neither do I, but now you are opening another can of worms
<jcater> my current frustration is that we are promoting our way of thinking... but instead of promoting in the "Revolution"-way (i.e., spread of democracy from the bottom up until a country revolts internally), we take the Hitler approach (all others are wrong and must be decimated)
<jcater> that's not a complete analogy, of course...
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> users
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<dneighbo> yes i think to be good it will take 'grass roots' level
<dneighbo> much more so than higher level
<jcater> I think the movement as a whole does
Action: jcater is just thinking of specific examples for the latter :)
Action: dsmith remembers all those companies that tried to make a disto based on Debain, and failed.
<dsmith> Debian is pure "grass roots"
<jcater> damn
Action: jcater was wrong
<jcater> there is at least one cute one here :)
<jcater> oops, did I say that outloud?
<dneighbo> took a minute, but i assume you meant a user
<jcater> :D
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<chillywilly> gah
<chillywilly> what worms is it the does ht eget default.ida?BIG_OLD_STRING_ZTO_OVERRBUFFER
<chillywilly> bimda? code red?
<chillywilly> er, iumda
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> nimda
<chillywilly> I mean
<dneighbo> bimbo
<dneighbo> er i mean nimba + melissa
<dneighbo> er i mean red light district
<dneighbo> er code red
Action: dneighbo cant keep them straight anymore :)
Action: chillywilly 's apache server keeps getting hit with requests for that
<dneighbo> at one point i grepped my logs on that virus
<dneighbo> tried ONE ip that queried me
<dneighbo> and they were infected hard
<dneighbo> the machien that was infected had siebel
<dneighbo> CRM software (REad whole customer database)
<dneighbo> i was going to email them and let them know they had major hole and to close it
<dneighbo> but some people freak on that now a days
<dneighbo> i just wanted to 'verify' if the threat was real
Action: chillywilly telnetted to port 80 of the last box and they were running IIS
<dneighbo> so sad
<dneighbo> try to http to it
<dneighbo> see if you can get an email address
<dneighbo> email them and say your machine wont stop requestiong my machine please patch your raggy ass warez and fix the problem ;)
<dneighbo> j/k
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> I should email them and say I would switch them over to Apache for a fee ;)
<dneighbo> well you probably have root access to the box if its querying you
<chillywilly> hrrm
<dneighbo> be a nice guy and switch them to apache for free just dont ask them first ;()
<chillywilly> that seems to be my ISP
<dneighbo> and yes im TEASING
<chillywilly> 169/207 is my ISP
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> 169.207
<dneighbo> well maybe your isp is infected
<chillywilly> must be someone running IIS on their box
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> frell:/var/log/apache# host 169.207.233.90
<chillywilly> Name: mail.yamadapump.com
<chillywilly> Address: 169.207.233.90
<dneighbo> seriously if you have 'tinkered' around in there
<dneighbo> short of just a telnet
<dneighbo> i woudl email them and say look man you are infected
<chillywilly> I just telnetted and fdid a 'get'
<chillywilly> I'm not going to brak into their box
<chillywilly> er, break
<dneighbo> they have an online form
<dneighbo> for comments 
<dneighbo> i will file an anonymous complaint :)
<chillywilly> that domain sounds like spam
<dneighbo> that im sick of it
<dneighbo> its not spam
<dneighbo> its really a diaphragm pump company in IL
<chillywilly> wtf is a yamadapump?
<chillywilly> ew
<chillywilly> Registrant:
<chillywilly> Yamada America, Inc. (YAMADAPUMP-DOM)
<chillywilly>    1575 High Point Drive
<chillywilly>    Elgin, IL 60123
<dneighbo> chilly can you post your apache file with the entry for the .ida for them here
<dneighbo> so i can put in this form?
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> 213.250.62.144 - - [12/Feb/2002:07:28:15 -0600] "GET /default.ida?NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u6858%ucbd3%u7801%u9090%u9090%u8190%u00c3%u0003%u8b00%u531b%u53ff%u0078%u0000%u00=a  HTTP/
<chillywilly> 0 325 "-" "-"
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> that's not them
<dneighbo> what do you mean its not them?
<chillywilly> wrong entries
<dneighbo> bozo :)
<dneighbo> so is their ip affected?
<chillywilly> 169.207.233.90 - - [04/Jan/2002:18:11:08 -0600] "GET /scripts/root.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 282 "-" "-"
<chillywilly> 169.207.233.90 - - [04/Jan/2002:18:11:12 -0600] "GET /MSADC/root.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 280 "-" "-"
<chillywilly> 169.207.233.90 - - [04/Jan/2002:18:11:16 -0600] "GET /c/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 290 "-" "-"
<chillywilly> 169.207.233.90 - - [04/Jan/2002:18:11:17 -0600] "GET /d/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 290 "-" "-
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> look
<dneighbo> ok
<chillywilly> that's the worm trying to get a command line
<chillywilly> cmd.exe thingy
<chillywilly> it was a long time ago though
<chillywilly> Jan 4th
Action: chillywilly has tons of entries in here form infected hosts
<chillywilly> er, from
<dneighbo> oh
<dneighbo> jan 4th aint that long though
<dneighbo> as it goes dormant iirc
<dneighbo> the worm attacks hard for like a week or two
<dneighbo> then goes dormant for rest of month
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> hrrm
Action: chillywilly pkes through his lg to find out all infected hosts ;)
<dneighbo> was going to send them this:
<dneighbo> Your mail server is infected with a strain of virii that hit IIS servers. Because of this infection, it is trying to spread to other machines, and my logs show it trying to penetrate my system.
<dneighbo> I picked this up off my server logs today, I thought I would extend you the courtesy to let you know so that you could fix it.  In the future,  I would consider a more secure operating system and web serving software.
<dneighbo> ------logfile------
<dneighbo> 169.207.233.90 - - [04/Jan/2002:18:11:08 -0600] "GET /scripts/root.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 282 "-" "-"
<dneighbo> A quick host lookup pointed you out:
<dneighbo> frell:/var/log/apache# host 169.207.233.90
<dneighbo> Name: mail.yamadapump.com
<dneighbo> Address: 169.207.233.90
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> I got that by doing 'host 169.207.233.90'
<chillywilly> woops
Action: chillywilly didn't realize that was an email
<chillywilly> duh
<dneighbo> i sent it off
<chillywilly> cool
<dneighbo> didnt even do it anonymously
<dneighbo> i put your email on it
<dneighbo> hahahaha
<dneighbo> j/k
<chillywilly> you should've said like Debian GNU/Linux and Apache web server
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> with a sign line of all joo base belongz 2 me
<dneighbo> chillywilly i had that at first but figured didnt want to sound political
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> yea
<dneighbo> or they coudl view it as me infecting them to get them to switch or something
<chillywilly> true
<dneighbo> i really just want to be a nice guy
<dneighbo> as its sad
Action: chillywilly should write a script that parses the log and mails them
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> I only wish to be a nice guy
<chillywilly> I would write something like what you wrote
<chillywilly> it is VERY sad
<chillywilly> but I can't help but love my Apache
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> even if you made it crash the best access you could get would be for www-data
<chillywilly> as it doesn't run as root
<chillywilly> the power of UNIX
<dsmith> Behold the power of apacheese
<jamest> man i love windows
<jamest> just booted up a laptop
<jamest> the main login window comes up
<jamest> (we don't allow access to the machine w/o a valid network login)
<jamest> it has a small icon checked in the corner (remember password)
<jamest> so i think damn i wonder if that was me that forgot to uncheck that
<jamest> typed in my name
<jamest> hit enter
<jamest> it logged me in w/ my password
<jamest> it's ease of use features like this that make it a killer system
<dsmith> ;^)
<chillywilly> oh yea
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<dneighbo> jamest if i have a a string in like a dict or something
<dneighbo> pos_rec[0]
<dneighbo> how can i type cast it?
<dneighbo> so i could do somethign like
<dneighbo> if (pos_rec[0] < 100):
<dneighbo>   pos_rec[0] = pos_rec[0] * 10
<dneighbo> or something?
<dneighbo> or do i not have to 'cast' in python?
Action: dneighbo forgets
<dneighbo> pascal is very picky about such things
<jamest> cast to what?
<jamest> int() float() str()
<jamest> if (int(pos_rec[0]) < 100):
<jamest> btw - you coding in python?????
<dneighbo> float()
<dneighbo> jamest yeah
<chillywilly> if (float(pos_rec[0]) < 100):
<dneighbo> sweet
Action: chillywilly thought you only needed to cast if the operators were different otherwise it uses default type of the object 9whatever it is set to)
<chillywilly> s/9/)/
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> s/9/(/
<dtm> root@phat-o-tha-LAN #  werd -HUP
<chillywilly> i.e., python does type coercion
<chillywilly> do you need the cast if you compare it to 100.0?
<jamest> at times yes
<dneighbo> sigh this sucks nuts
<dneighbo> chillywilly it dont BITCH if i dont cast it
<dneighbo> BUT it dont do what i want if i dont :)
<dneighbo> jamest: way around
<dneighbo> float(mystring)
<chillywilly> sup dtm
<dneighbo> get error empty string
<dneighbo> Value Error: empty string float()
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<dneighbo> er
<dneighbo> Value Error: empty string for float()
<jamest> a couple of ways
<chillywilly> there's no method to convert?
<jamest> mystring and float(mystring) 
<dneighbo> i mean i could do if (mystring <> '')
<jamest> would give either None or a float
<jamest>  a and float(a) or 0
<jamest> would give either string or 0
<jamest> :)
<dneighbo> hmm now you have me confused
<dneighbo> i suppose here the right answer is say if string not ''
<dneighbo> and save me the grief
<dneighbo> now that i think about it
<dneighbo> see python is so good it forces you to do things right :)
<jamest> >>> a = None
<jamest> >>> print a and float(a)
<jamest> None
<jamest> >>> print a and float(a) or 0
<jamest> 0
<jamest> >>> a = "1"
<jamest> >>> print a and float(a)
<jamest> 1.0
<jamest> >>> print a and float(a) or 0
<jamest> 1.0
<jamest> >>>
<jamest> but I'm being a bit mean maybe
<jamest> if mystring: 
<jamest>   foo =  float(mystring) + bar
<jamest> else:
<jamest>   foo = bar
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<jamest> did you get that ?
<jamest> poor dneighbo.....i think his head exploded
<chillywilly> hehe
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Action: reinhard is already in lent while you americans still have carnival
Action: reinhard doesn't think this is fair
<reinhard> ;)
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> preemtable kernel patch looks cool
Action: chillywilly should get 2.5.4
<reinhard> night all
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<dtm> reinhard's a quitter.  it's not night!  ;)
<chillywilly> it may be in austria
<chillywilly> silly
<dtm> NO IT'S NOT.
<chillywilly> YES IT IS!!!!!
<chillywilly> reinhard is not a lamerican
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> dude, I am dying to patch apply the kernel preemption patch
<chillywilly> s/patch//
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<dneighbo> crap too long since real work
<dneighbo> how do you string format in python or C
<dneighbo> like
<chillywilly> you shoudl take notes
<dneighbo> print("my foo %d is cool") % (foo)
<dneighbo> where you make %d like 2.22 
<dneighbo> or whatever
Action: chillywilly will give you his notes when he gets through the python essential reference
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo> i have notes
<dneighbo> and i have books
<dneighbo> just not with me
<chillywilly> then what good are notes/
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> j/k
<chillywilly> brb
<chillywilly> I'll look it up for you if you haven't found it by the time I get back
<dneighbo> ok cool
<dneighbo> im not finding in docs
<dneighbo> found print function but it dont show jack
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<jamest> so
<chillywilly> ok
<jamest> did derek recover?
<chillywilly> so so suck my toe
<chillywilly> he's asking other things now
<chillywilly> so I guess so
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<chillywilly> dneighbo: it's like print "string %d blah %d blah %d" % (foo, bar, baz)
<chillywilly> sorry I forgot about you
Action: chillywilly got distracted
<dneighbo> sorry was gone
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<chillywilly> ack
<chillywilly> plz, no more mastas!
<chillywilly> one is enogh
<chillywilly> enough even
<dneighbo_> ok jamest
<dneighbo_> print ("FTE %d * %d/100 %d") % (fte, float(pos_rec[11]), (float(pos_rec[11])/100))
<dneighbo_> how can i make those %d 's put output like 2.2
<dneighbo_> instead of 2
<chillywilly> you use printf formatters
Action: dneighbo_ is trying to do some debugging
<chillywilly> in front of the %d
<dneighbo_> is it 2%d
<dneighbo_> or something, me always forget
Action: chillywilly does nto recall either
<chillywilly> er, not
<jamest> what are you trying to do?
<chillywilly> specify how digits pas the decimal are shown
<chillywilly> how many
<dneighbo_> yes
<dneighbo_> a %d shows 0
<dneighbo_> but the output to file shows .024
<dneighbo_> or something
<dneighbo_> i want the print w/ %d to show the decimals
<dneighbo_>         pos_rec[27] = str(fte * (float(pos_rec[11])/100))
<dneighbo_> doesnt seem to be doing what i WANT
<dneighbo_> so trying to see what values it has so made a print statement
<dneighbo_>         print ("FTE 2%d * 2%d/100 2%d") % (fte, float(pos_rec[11]), (float(pos_rec[11])/
<dneighbo_> 100)
<dneighbo_> )
<chillywilly> space.num_digits%d
<chillywilly> iirc
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> width.num_digits%d
<chillywilly> e.g.
<chillywilly> 0.2
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> 0.2%d
<chillywilly> does
<chillywilly> number.12
<dneighbo_> must be printf then not print?
<jamest> um
<jamest> it's c convention for the most part
<chillywilly> print understands printf formatting strings
<dneighbo_> yes but its been like 8 years since C
<dneighbo_> my first question was how do i do it in C :)
<chillywilly> well I just todl you dude
<jamest> %width.precision
<dneighbo_> sometimes this channel is as bad as #debian ;)
<chillywilly> you do '0.number_of_decimals_you_want%d'
<jamest> print "%4.2f" % 4.3
<dneighbo_> so is it
<chillywilly> jamest: correct width.precision
<dneighbo_> thank you :)
<chillywilly> [18:08:54] <chillywilly> width.num_digits%d
<chillywilly> :P
<jamest> misplaced % 
<chillywilly> see I wasn't lying
<jamest> :P
<chillywilly> woops
<chillywilly> you're right
<chillywilly> bad chillywilly
<jamest> we need to rename the channel
<jamest> er retopic it
<chillywilly> uh oh
<chillywilly> why?
<dneighbo_> joy that worked, you elevated back to non #debian status :)
<jamest> Welcome to GNU Enterprise.  We try to help.
<chillywilly> :D
<dneighbo_> they say business is all about benchmarks
<dneighbo_> we know the BOTTOM of help
<chillywilly> well dagnabit I would've figured out my blunder eventually
<dneighbo_> thats #debian :)
<jamest> without starting a huge debate
<chillywilly> disclaimer:
<jamest> i need forms to do dynamic menus
<jamest> now
<dneighbo_> use gpd's
<chillywilly> in the even that chillywilly tries to help, please bear in mind he's not always 100% accurate
<chillywilly> er, event
<dneighbo_> and integrate them into the menu structure
<dneighbo_> that woudl be my vote
<dneighbo_> or do you mean REALLY dynamic menus
<dneighbo_> like triggers editing them
<jamest> yes
<jamest> I'm building the internals now
<dneighbo_> well i still vote read gpd
<dneighbo_> into menu structure then allow for its manipulation
<jamest> that would be an option in what I have
<chillywilly> wtf is a gpd?
<chillywilly> gnue process definition?
<dneighbo_> gnue process definition
<dneighbo_> what navigator uses
<chillywilly> jinx
<jamest> dislcaimer
<jamest> I have a huge dealline
<chillywilly> you owe me a coke
<chillywilly> what does navigator do?
<jamest> I know this has issues with internals with forms that most people don't know about 
Action: chillywilly has not played with that
<jamest> but here is what I have now
<jamest> GMenu
<jamest>   keymapperEvent - The name of a keymapper event entry that would have the same effect as
<jamest>                  - firing
<jamest>   triggerName    - the NAMED trigger this menu item should fire upon selection
<jamest>   type           - Normal, Seperator, Dynamic
<jamest>   label          - the displayed text on the menu (& before the char that defs the alt-hotkey)
<jamest>   enabled        - is this item active
<dneighbo_> jamest i dont care WHAT you say
<jamest> the forms parser can now do 
<jamest> <menu>
<dneighbo_> im not gonna fight you out of adding a feature ive been screaming for :)
<jamest>   <menu>
<jamest>       <menu>
<jamest>     </menu>
<jamest>    </menu>
<jamest>  </menu>
<jamest> however
<jamest> this might suck
<dneighbo_> BUT i still strongly suggest you use the .gpd to read in the menu structure
<jamest> as I'm allowing gfd people to override menus
<dneighbo_> so you dont have to menus into gfd's
<jamest> dneighbo: note in my posting
<jamest> type = Dynamic
<jamest> in which case the trigger named is used to create the submenu
<chillywilly> so in designer will I be able to drag and drop menu widgets?
<dneighbo_> but as stated we need menus (for me navigator is cool, but my users want menus)
<chillywilly> and name them what I like
<jamest> the entire menu structure for forms will be in a file in gnue/etc
<dneighbo_> chillywilly eventually
<jamest> so you can do site customizations to the menu
<dneighbo_> i think desinger will let one edit gpd's
<jamest> designer will edit any GObj based tree
<dneighbo_> sigh
<chillywilly> whatever that means
<jamest> it may need told about the .gpd extension
Action: chillywilly has yet to get heavily invilved in forms (yet)
<dneighbo_> i thought that is a large part of what .gpd was
<dneighbo_> i.e. instead of gnue/etc menu structure
<chillywilly> er, using them I mean
<jamest> dneighbo: that's a process definition
<jamest> file - save 
<jamest> isn't a biz process
<jamest> however
<jamest> via a dynamic menu entry 
<jamest> you can add a gpd extension
<jamest> and you can put as many of these as you like into your sites gnue/etc/forms-menu
<jamest> also
<chillywilly> you ever commit that text version of thr forms ref? ;)
<chillywilly> pretty please
<jamest> this structure would also be used internally by things like designer
<dneighbo_> ok i guess im thinking
<jamest> that have nothing to do with process flow
<dneighbo_> gnue/etc is fine for file/save etc
<dneighbo_> but you should really be doing customizations via gpd's
<dneighbo_> unless its something odd
<jamest> dneighbo: if i want a form to have
<jamest> file
<dneighbo_> i mean part of me says i could care less if the other menu items (that would go in gnue/etc) were hard coded
<jamest>  print normal
<jamest>  print abnormal
<jamest>  print your mama
<dneighbo_> yes
<jamest> and I only want this in one form
<dneighbo_> i just dont want to advocate a system of doing menus in gnue/etc
<jamest> you'd make it part of the biz process?
<dneighbo_> ok i think you said soemthign that hit home
<dneighbo_> if i want it in the framework (on EVERY form) it shoudl go in gnue/etc
<jamest> right
<dneighbo_> if i want it on only SOME forms it should be in a gpd
<jamest> that is what I'm saying
<jamest> and if you want your gpd in your menu system
<jamest> you'd add a single entry in gnue/etc/forms-menu
<dtm> hi guys.
<dneighbo_> yes
<dtm> dneighbo: werd.
<jamest> and it wouldn't be in designer
<dneighbo_> works for me
<dneighbo_> hi dtm 
<jamest> eventually you may wnat it in designer
<jamest> so you'd add it to gnue/etc/designer-menu
<jamest> now back to my question
<jamest> :)
<dtm> hey have you guys ever heard of a piece of software called Noah, which is designed to support associations and NPOs?  
<jamest> chillywilly: i will do ASAP, i promise
<jamest> i was going to nest menu's like above
<chillywilly> :D
<chillywilly> I love you
<jamest> however I want to alter existing structures
<chillywilly> I love you all
<chillywilly> group hug!
<dtm> i love you, chilly
<dtm> i love you guys!!
<jamest> so in form a i need to replace the save
<jamest> add a line under it called save differently
<chillywilly> where's jc at?
<jamest> add a line under that called save somewhat differently
<jamest> this doesn't really lend itself to a nested <menu> structure
<jamest> as if we have a 
<jamest> a menu system that gets deeply nested
<jamest> by default
<dtm> I dont know if these guys are the authors or merely resellers of NOAH, but here's a url:  http://www.jlsystems.com/e-noah.htm
<dtm> I didn't know if that type of thing falls under gnue's umbrella at all, or in its short term goals.
<jamest> then my form need to add an entry after Tools - Foobulators - Phase I Foobulation Units - ReDeFooBulator
<dtm> NOAH seems to sort of be to association membership management, as ERP is to a medium to large corp.
<jamest> i dont want to create a nest with all that crap in it
<chillywilly> ouch!
<jamest> in my gfd
<chillywilly> my foobulator is broken!
Action: dtm defoobulates chillywilly
<chillywilly> dtm: stop ntouching my foobulator
<jamest> instead I was wondering about doing this
<dtm> a;sljdl;
<chillywilly> lol
Action: dtm hungers ......  for food
<jamest> location="tools.foobulators.phase1" leader="redefoobulator"
<dtm> mom has something in the crockpot; i dont know what it is but it smells like pizza and so i want pizza!  but this is black goop!
<chillywilly> ask her what it is
<jamest> er
<dneighbo_> who
<dneighbo_> whoa
<dneighbo_> why woudl you create a nest in your gfd?
<dneighbo_> i thought we were saying if its in ALL forms its gnue/etc
<jamest> location="tools.foobulators.phase1" leader="redefoobulator" name="eXtremefoobulator2000" label="eXtreme Foobulatoin" help="More foobulation than the church will allow"
<dneighbo_> if its in some forms its in .gpd
<dneighbo_> why would you ever make it in a .gfd
<dneighbo_> only time a gfd should touch the menu
<dneighbo_> would be to dyanmically alter it
<jamest> all forms in gnue/etc
<jamest> however i have a case now
<jamest> where they want numerous save optoins (don't even ask)
<dneighbo_> is it for one form or all forms
<jamest> this is one form
<dneighbo_> if its one form it shoudl be in gnue/etc
<dneighbo_> if its one form
<dneighbo_> should make a gpd
<jamest> ????
<jamest> that doesn't make sense
<dneighbo_> and have the form call the gpd
<dneighbo_> um
<jamest> it's like a custom menu for an app
<dneighbo_> i dont think menu structures belong in forms
<jamest> not a process description
<dneighbo_> i think you are tied on process description verbiage
<jamest> and gpd is the basis of workflow
<dneighbo_> um yes and no
<dneighbo_> gpd could do some workflow stuff or provide hooks
<dneighbo_> but its made to do what you are saying
<dneighbo_> it can call outside apps
<dneighbo_> reports
<dneighbo_> other forms
<dneighbo_> etc etc
<jamest> i don't want it to call other forms
<jamest> i want it to call custom triggers defined in this one form
<dneighbo_> i just think it will be vile to have menus in gfd's
<jamest> that manipulate the data in the form in a specific mannor
<dneighbo_> gpd's are supposed to be able to do that
<dneighbo_> gpd is supposed to be able to call triggers
Action: jamest is stressed
<jamest> i have < 3 days to go live with this
<jamest> sigh
<dneighbo_> maybe im way wrong but doing what you are saying to me says please then lets throw gpd away
<dneighbo_> as gpd is not workflow
<dneighbo_> it was merely going to be an easier way to call a workflow engine
<dneighbo_> and publish menus based on roles etc
<dneighbo_> but i guess you should talk to jcater
<dneighbo_> im sure he will probably agree with you
<jamest> so you'd have your master gpd contain form specific alteration?
<dneighbo_> though i think thats bad design to do same concept intwo places
<dneighbo_> jamest: no silly
<dneighbo_> concept of self
<dneighbo_> so you could have a form call call to load the gpd
<dneighbo_> er let me restate that
<dneighbo_> what ever form has focus is self
<dneighbo_> so in the gpd you called some trigger for a form and used self
<dneighbo_> it would perform it on the form that had focus
<dneighbo_> i.e. your gpd wouldnt have HARDCODED form name
<dneighbo_> rather self.dosomethign()
<dneighbo_> if that makes sense
<jamest> ok
<jamest> now this menu entry executes a trigger that was to be defined in the form
<dneighbo_> but you coudl have it CALL hardcoded things if you so desired
<jamest> you'd move that out of the form?
<jamest> and into the gpd?
<dneighbo_> why
<jamest> well
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#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
<jamest> it seems nuts to put logic in the form
<chillywilly> sup neilt
<dneighbo_> depends on the logic :)
<neilt> hello all
<dneighbo_> but yes if was NON form specific trigger put in gpd or shared triggers
<jamest> take field a, b, c, d perform this alteratoin, store in field e and save
<chillywilly> form.troutslap(dneighbo)
<jamest> it's dead on form specific
<jamest> also
<dneighbo_> right so put that trigger in the form
<dneighbo_> not the gpd
<neilt> i have just changed my whole thought process on gcd classes :)
<jamest> triggers will be able to enable, disable menu entried
<jamest> also
<jamest> designer menus would migrate to this
<chillywilly> neilt: er, why?
<jamest> so you'd want your entire designer menu in a pgd?
<jamest> gpd?
Action: jamest is getting confused
<dneighbo_> i think so
<chillywilly> neilt: we should do ODL it handles object relationships, exceptions, and other goodies
<dneighbo_> er wait designer menus i would see like the gnue/etc ones
<dneighbo_> though i see no reason for not supporting gpds there if so desire 
<jamest> i think you misunderstand my purpose
<dneighbo_> once again maybe gpd is wrong name for it
<chillywilly> neilt: it is also pretty simplified and not too complex...I think andrewm wanted to do harder things like public, prvate, protected, ....
<jamest> i'm making a menu system that can be dynamically defined and exposable to triggers
<jamest> that any gnue app could use
<dneighbo_> right
<dneighbo_> im not denying that
<jamest> now ahving RBAC on this might be nice
<dneighbo_> im saying that most of the time you arent going to want to define things dynamically 100%
<chillywilly> neilt: but anyway, what's your thought process now?
<dneighbo_> that is where you use gpd
<dneighbo_> i hate irc
<dneighbo_> i think face to face adn white board would have this solved in minutes
<jamest> not really 
<neilt> ahh, because i have been trained now
<dneighbo_> again consult jcater and let him give you input
Action: dneighbo_ is used to being misunderstood
<jamest> as I can't see "save" needing rbac
Action: dneighbo_ still thinks blocks are wasted elements :)
<jamest> but I can see forms or designer being able to disable it
<jamest> sigh
Action: chillywilly is away: supper
<jamest> there are no docs on gpd's
<dneighbo_> yes there are
<dneighbo_> um....
<jamest> gack!
<jamest> dude
<jamest> gpd sample
<jamest>     <process description="Supply Chain Child" id="sc">
<jamest>       <step type="form" location="somewhere.gfd"
<jamest>             description="Form Description 1"/>
<jamest>       <step type="form" location="somewhere.gfd"
<jamest>             description="Form Description 2"/>
<jamest>       <step type="report" location="somereport.grd"
<jamest>             description="Report Description 1">
<jamest>         <parameter value="Y" name="posted"/>
<jamest>       </step>
<jamest>     </process>
<jamest> that is not a menu entry
<jamest> that's a multistep process
<jamest> where can I see docs
Action: jamest really does have a deathline approaching rapidly
<dneighbo_> um they must have been emailed
<jamest> fsck
Action: jamest may just hack a custom gfclient w/ extra menu entires
<dneighbo_> as it was skleins original proposal that was used to start it
<jamest> as this is turning into something well beyond anything I can do in the time alloted
<dneighbo_> do what you think is best like i said i think jcater will agree with you that <menu> should coexist with gpd
<dneighbo_> i tend to disagree
<dneighbo_> but nothing new there
<dneighbo_> i would even be ok with that really if gpd's are read to make menus
<jamest> um
<jamest> anyone have docs?
<dneighbo_> anyone know date time functions in python
<dneighbo_> how can i do equiv of now()
<jamest> um
<jamest> i think i have that 
<jamest> just a sec
<dneighbo_> and make it formatted to human being date time?
<dneighbo_> or
<dneighbo_> begin = now()
<dneighbo_> end = now()
<dneighbo_> print pretty_time(end-begin)
<jamest> http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/module-time.html
<dneighbo_> hmm their sample doesnt even work :)
<dneighbo_> guess my version of ptyon is different
<jamest> what are you wanting?
<dneighbo_> nevermind clock()
<dneighbo_> is perfect for windows
<dneighbo_> clock()
<dneighbo_> do stuff
[19:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dneighbo_> print "It took %2.10f to do stuff" % clock()
<chillywilly> localtime()
<chillywilly> returns a time tuple
<chillywilly> clock() does CPU time in seconds
<chillywilly> asctime()
<chillywilly> er
<chillywilly> asctime(tuple) does a nice string
<chillywilly> representation
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:16:18)
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<chillywilly> then there's
<chillywilly> strftime(format, tuple)
<chillywilly> ctime(secs) which converts seconds since epoch to string representing local time
<chillywilly> gmtime(secs) which takes epoch seconds and returns a time tuple im GMT time
<chillywilly> then to go form a tuple to epoch seconds use mktime(tuple)
<chillywilly> tuple consists of year, month, day, hour, minute, second, weekday, day, dst
<chillywilly> does that help dneighbo?
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> dst == daylight savings time
Action: chillywilly strokes the pythin essential reference
<chillywilly> er, python
<dneighbo_> import time
<dneighbo_> begin = time.clock()
<dneighbo_> end = time.clock()
<dneighbo_> total = end - begin
<dneighbo_> print total 
<chillywilly> that should work
<dneighbo_> seems to do the trick
<dneighbo_> i.e a variation of that, just laying concept down
<dneighbo_> :)
<dneighbo_> wasnt looking for much, just quick timer to benchmark python app i have here :)
<dneighbo_> for grins
<dneighbo_> but thanks for looking up and the link
Action: dneighbo_ will be using a lot more of python
<chillywilly> man I wish neilt would've stuck around
<chillywilly> wanted to pick his brain
<dneighbo_> you didnt give him your dogma i mean odmga
<dneighbo_> ;)
<chillywilly> oh well
<chillywilly> there's no 'a' dagnabit ;)
<chillywilly> it's odmg
<chillywilly> ;P
<dneighbo_> i know but thats only wya the joke worked
<chillywilly> everyone can see it in cvs
<dneighbo_> odmg == old dumb mean geezer's
<dneighbo_> or object data management group?
<dneighbo_> or soemthing else
<chillywilly> second one
<chillywilly> liek you didn't know
<chillywilly> off drugs might go-crazy
<chillywilly> old deaf man is grumpy
<chillywilly> objetcs drain my guests
<chillywilly> er, objects
Action: dneighbo_ is curious how long it takes to chew up this 152mb file with my program
jcater (~jason@24.92.70.39) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: dneighbo_ slaps the cuffs on him
<dneighbo_> bolts the chair down
<dneighbo_> and calls for jamest
<chillywilly> ol' doofy mc goo
<jamest> i'm here
Action: dneighbo_ grabs that gibsons donuts number
<chillywilly> oubject data management gurus
<jamest> what do you need?
Action: jcater is away: per jamest's advice
<jamest> boy that's graditude
<jamest> i /msg jcater Run!
<dneighbo_> jamest: i was chaining him down for you
<jamest> and he runs and then lets people know
<dneighbo_> i dont need anything 
<jamest> who warned him :)
<jamest> ah
<jamest> well then
<jamest> that's different
<jamest>  /msg jcater come back!
<jamest>  /msg jcater there's nothing to fear here.  honest
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Action: jamest chuckles to himself
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<jamest> dang it
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:02:44)
<jcater> wassup
<jamest> menus
<jamest> can you read the logs ?
<jcater> I ain't dun read nuttin since turd grade
<jcater> but I sho nuff willz tri
<jamest> cool
<jamest> good back to about 18:30
<dneighbo_> for those looking to feed jcater, gibson dont take visa over the phone ;)
<dtm>  /ctcp jcater the_force These are not the droids you are looking for.
<jamest> but
Action: jcater is not sure if they take visa at all
<jamest> if you call him up direct and give him your CC information
<jamest> I'm sure he can find someone willing to take it
<dtm>  /ctcp jcater the_force Move along.
<dneighbo_> jamest: rofl
<dneighbo_> i need to go
<dneighbo_> bbl
dneighbo_ (dneighbo@mail.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "BitchX: use it, it makes you bulletproof"
<jamest> "Um yeah, Best Buy.  You got doughnuts?  No?  Hmmm. How about 56" TVs"
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> "Hello, krispy kremes head quarters? I would like to purchase 10000 shares of your stock"
<chillywilly> "what I can get my own franchise for that price?!?!"
<jamest> lol
<chillywilly> "Hook me up!"
dneighbo (dneighbo@tech-200078.flinthills.com) left irc: "BitchX: coming soon to a theatre near you!"
Action: chillywilly is away: giving scotty a bath
<dtm> hey how come i dont get a bath?
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:11:08)
<chillywilly> because you are not my kid
<dtm> ksdhk;ljw
<chillywilly> you can give yourself one
<dtm> Well..  supposin' I do...   ?
<dtm> Then I won't need you to bathe me at _all_.
<dtm> So, maybe I'll just _do_ that.
Action: jcater is a big fan of the FSF -- Free Sponging Fanatic!
<jcater> of course, OSS is great, too -- Opening Sponging Sessions
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<jcater> s/Opening/Open
<dtm> jcater: you're gonna sponge someone's openings?
<dtm> that could be comforting
<jcater> lol
<jcater> depends on the opening I suppose
<jcater> ;)p
<dtm> that's my estimation as well.
<dtm> hey guys.  openoffice.org is a great escape from the evil empoire
<dtm> empire
<dtm> i highly recommend their products
<dtm> they can **WRITE** M$ Word, etc, formats
<jcater> dude
<jamest> yip
<dtm> word 95, 2000, XP, etc
<jcater> if it was FreeOffice, I would
<jcater> but that whole Open nomicer just ruins it for me
<jamest> only with a 200MB RAM footprint on your system while running :)
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<dtm> jcater: oh my gosh! :)
<jcater> ;)
<dtm> jamest: yeah i have 256M ram on my powermac 8500 and once it starts it's ok but i'm not a performance minded fewl
<jamest> oh i user staroffice, but on my multiuser machines it's a bitch
<jamest> i user?
<jamest> i robot!
<jamest> s/user/use
<dtm> HEH.
<dtm> why a bitch?
<jamest> cause I've seen a single ppt file cause a staroffice sessoin to grow to 196MB
<jamest> this is uncool on a system that has lots of people logged on 24/7
<dtm> i wonder what the difference is between their multiuser installation and single user installation
<jamest> not much
<jamest> the multiuser install requires that each user install from it
<dtm> no comprendo because what could there be other than one set of bins and libs, and then global or ~user confs?
<dtm> so it does more than just like how gimp does it?
<jamest> which copies some bins into $HOME/Office52 dir
<dtm> gimp has an initial setup mode somewhat
<jamest> along w/ other stuff
<jamest> the killer is the resources it sucks
<dtm> sure
<dtm> so do you have to run an installer per useR?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> i setup a script to do it the first time a user attempts to run staroffice
<dtm> i wonder why not do it like gimp
<dtm> without bothering the user but for one "yes/no" question
<jcater> dtm: so when the StarOffice is released based on that code, it's easier to enforce licenses :)
<dtm> hmmmmmmmmmmm
<dtm> how would that be? :)
<dtm> easier?
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> I don't work for Sun
<jcater> :)
<jcater> that was simply my guess :)
<jamest> honestly 
<jcater> btw, anyone had much experience w/WordPerfect/Linux?
<jamest> i think multiuser was a hack
<jamest> and it's flaky as hell IMHO
<jcater> I tend to agree
<dtm> no but i had experience administrating multiuser Applixware and staroffice in 1999 at VA
<jcater> as StarOffice was really meant to be a boxed product iirc
<dtm> jcater: you mean standalone single user?
<jcater> yeah
<dtm> Applix Anyware is a neat idea.
<jcater> as in CompUSA single user
<dtm> afaik, Sun has a similar model for staroffice
<dtm> with a server side backend and a distributable java based frontend
<dtm> ASP model
Action: jamest shudders
<jamest> WordPerfect Java Edition
<dtm> hey, what a way to encourage hardware sales?  ;)
<dtm> hahehhe
<dtm> you'll buy a 200 user license for Staroffice and they'll throw in an Enterprise 10000 to go with it
<dtm> right?
<jamest> :)
<jamest> soon they might not be able to give them away :)
<dtm> whoops, back to the mainframe model again.  hey everybody pitch in and move the IT industry back over there again.  Put your backs into it!!
Action: jamest had a battle getting linux in the dept
<dtm> jamest: why battle?
<jamest> resistance to unproven tech
<jamest> vs windows/solaris
<jamest> now
<dtm> sheesh
<jcater> I started out with BSD
<dtm> well Solaris is alright though
<jamest> this was years ago
<jcater> as it was hard to say it was unproven :)
<jcater> then moved to linux
<jamest> now one of those people asked me the other day if we should dump solaris
<jamest> and we're looking into a win4lin setup for windows apps
<dtm> oh yay
<jamest> so that windows runs on a central server and is served to those only when needed
<dtm> well win4lin is alright i guess
<dtm> i've read about their app server a bit, a while ago
<jcater> win4lin rocks my socks
<dtm> i met them at LWCE long ago
<jamest> what was your impression
<dtm> well  i just met the CFO and i think someone in sales, and they were cool
<dtm> good personalities , pretty young
<jamest> it's a _small_ company
<dtm> looked like in their thirties or so
<jamest> has to be
<dtm> yeah and they were outside the main pavillion or whatever you call it
<jamest> their PBX system was like
<dtm> oh have you been onsite/
<dtm> ?
<jamest> To speak with foobeana in sales press 1
<jamest> To speak with Barfeena in accounting press 2
<dtm> what's that?
<dtm> oh
<dtm> i see
<jamest> sorry
<dtm> you called em
<jamest> their phone system
<dtm> oh it referenced them by personal name? :)
<jcater> win4lin is actually based on the old SCO Merge
<jamest> yip
<dtm> oh?
<dtm> what did SCO do?
<dtm> i'm not aware of this
<dtm> did they buy a buncha IP from sco?
<dtm> is that how they got started?
<jcater> I think so
<jcater> sco had a unix platform, an X server for Windows, a Windows server or Unix, and Tarantella, some Client/Server model
<jcater> the middle 2 were actually bought from Vision
<jcater> but Caldera bought the Unix division
<jcater> and Tarantella, IIRC, branched off into another company
<jcater> btu I always wondered what happened to Merge
<jcater> then a month ago I bought win4lin
<jcater> and the install scripts still internally called it Merge
<jcater> ;)
<jcater> and that's a 2 minute recent history of SCO
<jcater> I could go back to pre-'95 if you'd like
<dtm> excellent
<dtm> hm.
<jcater> before 1995, SCO was 20% owned by Microsoft
<jcater> :)(
<dtm> heh
<jcater> bet most didn't know that
<dtm> yeah i researched XENIX in about 1996-1997, couldn't find anything
<dtm> oh yeah i knew that
<jcater> the Xenix code was from MS iirc
<dtm> and that XENIX was owned by M$
<dtm> XENIX was the evolved product of UNIX(tm), right?
<dtm> and then that became unixware(tm)?
<jcater> unixware was Novell for a while
<jcater> then SCO bought from Novell
<jcater> UnixWare was planned to phase out OpenServer
<dtm> yeah but as far as the product evolution, unix became xenix which became unixware, right?
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well
<dtm> oh boy  well maybe i just need to reread my postmortem history docs? :)
<jcater> the original SCO Unices were based on Xenix too
<jcater> but Unixware was a late purchase for SCO
<dtm> purchase from novell, huh?
<dtm> what the heck did openserver come from
<jcater> SCO Unix 4.2.3.x grew up into OpenServer
<jcater> SCO Unix 4.2.5.x aka OpenServer
<jcater> err, 4.2.4.x grew up into OpenServer
<jcater> and SCO Unix iirc was based on SysV
<jcater> um
<jcater> that's the point that jcater entered the Unix markey
<jcater> market
<jcater> so I can't go further back w/history :)
<jcater> my first *nix experience was with SCO
<jcater> which completely ruined me
<dtm> you poor guy
<dtm> and they had their own smb server too
<dtm> must have been awful to try to make that work
<dtm> due to M$
<dtm> ;alkjds;
<jcater> um
<jcater> I tried once'
<jcater> and installed samba
<jcater> their SCO Advanced File Server (iirc)
<jcater> was a bitch to get working
<jcater> and it was per-user licensing
Action: jcater shivers at the thought of that product
Action: jcater is still shivering
Action: jcater is away: bbiaf
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<dtm> jcater: per client user?
Action: chillywilly_ trout slaps jcater for making fun of Free v. Open
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<dtm> yeah well people should use SOME open standard office suite then
<dtm> :)
<dtm> i dont know how good abisuite is
<dtm> i've opened a couple of M$ office docs in openoffice and they were good enough, mostly perfect
<dtm> some missing graphics but i dont know if they were missing from the source doc
<chillywilly> that's not my point
<chillywilly> he wants to nmake funa nd saf FS ppl just do things because of a the "Open" part in the name
<chillywilly> blah
<dtm> huh.
<dtm> welly well well.
<chillywilly> his time would be better spent making fun of my typing
<dtm> you have to have sympathy for an ex-SCO admin
<chillywilly> ;P
<dtm> :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<dtm> he has our *pity*^Wcompassion
<chillywilly> then again, I think it is REALLY stupid to make fun of and criticize ppl for what they spend their time hacking on
<dtm> isn't it idiotic how those moron slashdot editors try to be funny and use a whole huge ton of ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H instead of a single ^W ?
<dtm> well let's not go overboard about jcater's humor :)
<chillywilly> this goes for masta too
<chillywilly> if ppl want to form a FSDN then so be it
<dtm> heh
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:29:43)
<jcater> hmm
<chillywilly> if it really is an uneeded stupid thing then it will die
<chillywilly> plain and simple
<dtm> THARZA SNAKE IN MAH BEWTZ.
<jcater> chillywilly: I was poking at you poking fun of what ppl spend their free time doing
<dtm> heh
Action: dtm pokes at jcater's fun
<jcater> as yes the Free crowd is spending their time doing their thing
<chillywilly> jcater: yea, that makes SO much more sense
<jcater> but so is the OSS
<dtm> chillywilly: heheh
<chillywilly> jcater: to which the former you are contributing ;)
Action: dtm slaps chillywilly and jcater in one swoop, a la Curly and Larry
<dtm> hehehe
<chillywilly> but yet you do not want to be "pigeon" holed
<dtm> hey chillywilly i _just_ about have my executive summary done
<dtm> of my Plan
<chillywilly> lets not forget that!
<dtm> the Executive Summary is about the first half
<dtm> of the Plan
<jcater> nyuck, nyuck, nyuck
<chillywilly> good job dtm
<dtm> yay
<jcater> chillywilly: you are right
<jcater> I don't want to be pigeon holed
<chillywilly> so I won't say "we" anymore
<jcater> that's my hole point
<chillywilly> I'll say us and that jcater guy maybe
<dtm> i'm going to give a presentation next month to a local chapter of an industry association.  and then i found that the world HQ for an international teleconferencing standards org is down the street
<jcater> I don't want all my efforts summed up as "another free software zealot"
<jcater> dtm: no bombing ala abortion clinics
<jcater> we've already discussed this
<jcater> it wouldn't help our "cause" :)
<dtm> jcater: ok
<dtm> noted
<chillywilly> who cares if ppl say "oh, he's justa nother FS zealot"?!?!?!!!!
<dtm> chillywilly: i care!
<dtm> :)
<jcater> because I'm not a FS zealot
<jcater> I'm a freedom zealot
<dtm> coz i want them to listen, perchance to support
<dtm> maybe even to get relief
<chillywilly> that's a small minded response
<chillywilly> er, the zealot thing
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> chillywilly: quite the contrary :)
Action: dtm contradicts both of you
Action: dtm secondarily contradicts you back into place
<jcater> sigh
<chillywilly> oh, so it's ok to make wuikc judgements on ppl
<chillywilly> er, quick
Action: jcater troutslaps dtm for trying to be another masta
<dtm> jcater: no, you're cool now
<dtm> i fixed it
Action: dtm cooks jcater's trouts
<chillywilly> thos are justvthe hard-nosed realists that RMS talks about
<jcater> hmm
<dtm> DIE, TROUT.
<jcater> blackened is best
<dtm> BLACKENED IS THE END.  WINTER IT WILL SEND.  THROWING ALL YOU SEE INTO OBSCURITY.
<jcater> that's blackened trout, not blackened hard-nosed realists
<dtm> DEATH OF MOTHER EARTH.  NEVER A REBIRTH.  EVOLUTION'S END.  NEVER WILL IT MEND.  NEVER!!!!!
<dtm> FIRE!!  TO BEGIN WHIPPING DANCE OF THE DEAD   BLACKENED IS THE END
<dtm> COLOR OUR TROUT BLACKENED!!!!
<chillywilly> when ppl don't get why you would want to do something worth while to make the world a better place and to actaully give ppl something you instead of being selfish and profiting they have a hard time grasping it
Action: jcater tries to slap some sense into dtm
<chillywilly> s/you//
<chillywilly> hey now
<chillywilly> old scholl metallica rocks
<chillywilly> er, school even
<jcater> sigh
Action: jcater is away: showering alone
<chillywilly> he showers?
<chillywilly> ;P
<dtm> OH YEAH??!  WHERE ARE THEY HOSING HIM DOWN AT?!?!
<dtm> hehehehe
<chillywilly> beats me
<chillywilly> I don't want to be around for that
<chillywilly> I think I'll skip that part
<dtm> i'm going to skip all his parts
<dtm> !!
<chillywilly> me too!
<dtm> well i'm impressed that you read a bunch of those allbusiness.com links
<dtm> that stuff is the Schmidt.
<dtm> most of it is pretty brief and concise
<dtm> and short
<dtm> and to the point
<dtm> and small
<dtm> and not big
<dtm> nor lengthy
<chillywilly> I skimmed a little
<chillywilly> the links you had in your email I read
<chillywilly> (before)
<dtm> you should read them all; i read about 90% of the links out of that whole business plan directory in < 1hr
<chillywilly> what is the outline for your business plan?
<dtm> prolly like 20 mins
<dtm> standard outline
<dtm> same as in those links
<dtm> more or less
<chillywilly> oh, ok
<dtm> i'm done with the first 1/2 or so which is considered the Executive Summary
<chillywilly> you create a budget and stuff?
<dtm> no; the only budget is our personal budget
<dtm> which is ok because we're a flow-through org
<dtm> there's no corporation
<dtm> so that means there are no organizational profits
<chillywilly> well, I wouldn't want outside investors anyway
<dtm> not officially
<chillywilly> why should I even need any
<chillywilly> ?
<dtm> there could be a shared bank account
<dtm> no you dont need any
<chillywilly> right now we're doing all of this for Free/free ;)
<dtm> yeah well if you wanna do justice to yourself, your family, gnue, and FD then you'd better write a bidness Plan :)
<chillywilly> another factor though would be that GNUe needs to mature a little more and get some real solutions ;)
<chillywilly> FD can go to hell
<dtm> i'm starting to capitalize it because it's not just a plan; it's a living document known as The Plan
<chillywilly> oops
<dtm> hahahaha
<chillywilly> did I say that out loud?
<dtm> you sillyfool
<chillywilly> guess that wasn't nice
<dtm> ok well focus on a solution rather than a problem
<chillywilly> FD is a emocracy in sheeps clothing ;)
<chillywilly> er democracy
<chillywilly> we are....actually
<dtm> start on a Plan! ;)
<chillywilly> I would not wan to do something grandose like FD
<chillywilly> it's unrealistic
<dtm> hey i was thinking of being some sort of bizdev advisor for open projects
<chillywilly> that would be cool
<dtm> just to help with something, as opposed to nothing
<dtm> especially for people who have nothing
<dtm> coz i'm not an expert
<chillywilly> can anyone reach oss.sgi.com?
<dtm> doesn't look good
<dtm> your kernel is sunk!
<chillywilly> nah
<dtm> it's dead in the water!
<chillywilly> it's down like this once in a while
<chillywilly> jheyI
<dtm> oh well you'll never reboot again!
<chillywilly> I am going to compile the preempt patch
<dtm> what's that for/
<dtm> ?
<dtm> preempt what?
<dtm> the whole kernel?
<chillywilly> then my kernel will kick your kernel's ass
<dtm> d0yh
<dtm> yeah they're toast past Exoduse
<dtm> yeah they're toast past Exodus
<chillywilly> yes, it's a patch to preempt the kernel and let user processes run
<dtm> in Santa Clara where i used to work
<dtm> huh
<chillywilly> makes things run faster
<dtm> you mean for user processes to preempt the kernel?!
<chillywilly> yes!
<dtm> tha fuk?
<dtm> intellestink
<dtm> good gravy
<chillywilly> reduces latency
<chillywilly> I just wanna give it a try once
<dtm> that cna't include the whoel kernel though, right?
<chillywilly> should be fun :)
<dtm> doesn't that just mean that it preempts all other processes?
<dtm> or what
<chillywilly> there's certain parts where the kernel sits in a spin lock
<dtm> or does this only apply to certain kinds of processes or operations
<chillywilly> kernel processes can be preempted in favor of a user process to get better thoughput
<chillywilly> reduce latency
<chillywilly> etc.
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<chillywilly> the guy who wrote the patch says he gets a 200% improvement so I thought I'd give it a shot and see if things ran a bit faster
<dtm> improvement on what
<chillywilly> I forget what it was, maybe it was latency
<chillywilly> that he "measured"
<chillywilly> http://www.tech9.net/rml/linux/
<chillywilly> read about it there home skillet
Action: jcater is back (gone 00:17:43)
<jcater> gosh darn it, don't know what he measured... but it's obviously better (just look at those numbers)
<chillywilly> heh
<jcater> ;)
<chillywilly> there's a
<jcater> j/k
<chillywilly> well int heory a preemptable kernel should perform better anyway
<chillywilly> and I am adventurous enough to try it
<chillywilly> so so sue me
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> anyway, if you visit the page
<chillywilly> you;l see that he measured latency in the kernel
<chillywilly> he has a patch that does the stats
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> so my guess was right
<jcater> looks interesting
<chillywilly> Preemption Latency Measurement Tool
<chillywilly> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/rml/preempt-stats/v2.4/preempt-stats-rml-2.4.17-2.patch
<chillywilly> you get to deal with the sam fun stuff as SMP machines do
<chillywilly> (when hacking a preemptive kernel)
<chillywilly> jpy!
<chillywilly> er, joy
<chillywilly> http://www.kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=328&mode=thread&order=0
<chillywilly> there's cool links about it under 'Relative links:'
<chillywilly> I think preemption allows you to get hard real-time processing
<chillywilly> which is also cool for embedded systems
<chillywilly> basically the idle (kernel) task gets preempted by higher priority processes
<chillywilly> afaict
<chillywilly> this should be fun
<chillywilly> :)
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> that was an interesting article
Action: jcater is gonna try it on his office workstation tomorrow
<jcater> what's the worst that can happen?
<jcater> my athlon melts down?
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> just leave a backuop entry for your old kernel and you'll be ok
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<soulstompp> I am working on a windows install of the gnue forms for a demo tommorow night
<soulstompp> this doesn't come with a gnue.conf file in the /etc/ folder
<soulstompp> is their somewhere that I can get a copy for this or can I use the one that I already have on my linux install?
<chillywilly> should be able to use the same file
<soulstompp> okay thanks
<chillywilly> (assuming the same data sources exsit
<chillywilly> er, exist
<chillywilly> otherwise you can just change it
<soulstompp> alright I can make sure that is the case
<chillywilly> you might have EOL character issues ;)
<soulstompp> :)
<chillywilly> you should convert it to DOS EOL chars
<soulstompp> I have one other question
<soulstompp> having to do with the navigator
<soulstompp> I have a couple of samples that use this
<chillywilly> (maybe, I dunno)
<soulstompp> and I don't have some of the wx libraries that I need to run it
<chillywilly> hmmm
<soulstompp> but so that I have something to show tommorow does anyone have screen shots
<chillywilly> well maybe jcater can speak up here
<chillywilly> he knows a bit more about this than I
<soulstompp> the other half is probably just the rpm sticking things where it shouldn't
<soulstompp> and I will get that fixed when I move the files
<soulstompp> or by moving the files I should say
Action: chillywilly patches his kernel for preemption ;)
<soulstompp> on the windows version can I be lazy and use ODBC without installing anything?
<soulstompp> or do I need to install the postgres drivers
<soulstompp> I have the odbc driver somewhere for windows
<soulstompp> and can add the rpms on the server if needed
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> jcater: are you still awake?
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> I gotta run
<jcater> I'd use odbc
jcater (jason@24.92.70.39) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<soulstompp> sounds good
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<dtm> o/~  O..D..B..SEEEEEA!!!  BY THE DONZERLY LIIIIIIGHT!!!
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> damn this kernel doesn't want to compile
<chillywilly> bitches about modversions.h not being in include/linux
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> that blows
<dtm> :/
<chillywilly> that header is generated right?
--- Wed Feb 13 2002