[00:01] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dtm> chillywilly: whirred.
<chillywilly> derek: heh
<chillywilly> what's the dilly yo?
Action: chillywilly has had a BUSY weekend
<chillywilly> still managed to commit some stuff to GNUe cvs though ;)
<chillywilly> I have my priorities straight
<chillywilly> ;p
<dtm> chillywilly: a;sjf  I SAID 'WHIRRED'.
<chillywilly> that "what's the dilly yo' was for you dtm
<chillywilly> and derek
<chillywilly> so there :P
<dtm> oh oh ok.
<dtm> so what's up dan
<chillywilly> I didn't fagit ya dawg
Action: dtm howls at the moon
<chillywilly> good god
<chillywilly> there's a billion commits to cvs
<chillywilly> today
<derek> chillywilly: we thought you were lonely so figured you could use some commit mails
<chillywilly> hey I contributed so it's all good
<chillywilly> hrrrrm
<chillywilly> looks like neilt has a brokedn orbit-python
<chillywilly> derek: you never commented on my email to gnue-dev
<chillywilly> derek: you're slacking on th job
<chillywilly> I take that back geas bit the dust
<chillywilly> cool, a bus error
Nick change: mdean -> mdean-[offline]
<chillywilly> oh, a new version of dia
Action: chillywilly notes this preemption kernel patch rocks his socks
<dtm> chillywilly: what do you use it for
<chillywilly> it reduces latency in the kernek
<chillywilly> er, kernel
<dtm> yeah so what do you use it for
<chillywilly> boots performance
<dtm> FOR WHAT
<dtm> :)
<chillywilly> makes my desktop and other stuff respond better
<dtm> you personally run an application for it.  what?
<chillywilly> faster
<dtm> your desktop?  whoa
<chillywilly> yes, Gnome is my desktop
<chillywilly> dog gone it
<dtm> whoa, so you give hardware-level priority to gnome/
<dtm> ?
<dtm> so that makes gnome fully cooperative with the kernel in execution time,eh
<dtm> ?
<dtm> gnome can halt or crash the whole system then? or what
<chillywilly> kernel code gets preempted in favor of user processes
<chillywilly> no
<dtm> preempted until the process returns?  or is it not cooperative?
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<chillywilly> ummm
<chillywilly> there's still multitaksing going on it is just that kernel code is less of a priority
<chillywilly> when it is "preempted" that just means itgives up it's time slice or chance to run in favor of a higher priority process
<chillywilly> actually any process cwn be preempted
<chillywilly> even kernel mode ones
<chillywilly> http://www.tech9.net/rml/linux/
<dtm> ok i see
<chillywilly> This patch enables a preemptible kernel, which reduces the latency of the kernel. It allows processes to be preempted even if in kernel mode.
<chillywilly> The design used is to allow a task to be preempted anywhere within the kernel, using spinlocks as markers for non-preemptibility regions. The resulting system response is greatly increased, with measured average latencies under 1ms.
<dtm> so basically it's like adding a new level to the 'nice' command.
<dtm> or 'renice'
<chillywilly> it makes the kernel get out of the way ;)
<dtm> ok so you can virtually renice the kernel down
<chillywilly> it happens automagically
<dtm> Magic rules.
<chillywilly> the card game?
<chillywilly> card/role playing
<chillywilly> j/k
<chillywilly> must....sleeep.....
<dtm> hey dan.  there's this concept of something called "HEAD" in a cvs tree, which is capitalized for no apparent reason.  what is "HEAD"?
<dtm> is that a default configuration of some kind?
<chillywilly> the main branch
<dtm> i hear about it in a lot of projets
<chillywilly> the 'trunk' if you will
<derek> HEAD is what most developers pine for but seldom get
<derek> ;)
<dtm> oh
<chillywilly> hehe
<dtm> stable huh?
<dtm> heh
<dtm> why is it capitalized?
<dtm> and what is an alternative?  what's non-HEAD?
<dtm> i mean, what else is there?
<derek> HEAD is the raw source
<chillywilly> HEAD is usually the most unstable as it is like the current cvs version
<derek> branches are segments marked off for retrieval
<derek> generally branches are stable of some sort
<chillywilly> the alternatives are specific branches in cvs
<derek> HEAD is just last file checkins
<dtm> derek: so in the case of DCL, which one is HEAD?
<derek> but say you get a working HEAD
<derek> HEAD is the development code (what you checked out) in most projects head is usually broken
<chillywilly> it's all about how you manage your cvs tree
<derek> instead use what i gave you in #dcl
<derek> to check out a stable branch
<chillywilly> usually you hack on a certain stable branch and fix bugs
<chillywilly> HEAD has all the 'development' stuff in it
<chillywilly> at some point HEAD becomes stable and you branch off again
<chillywilly> (that's one way to do it)
<chillywilly> you can merge bug fixes form the stable branch back into HEAD
<dtm> derek : why do you say most devs pine for it but seldom get it?
<chillywilly> the cvs book is a good source dtm
<chillywilly> I think he meant that other kinda HEAD
<chillywilly> ;)
<dtm> hmmm.
<dtm> HEAD is just a dumping ground then, eh?
<dtm> just to get files collected?
<dtm> but it's the default, right?  so if i just check out the module 'dclgw' then i get HEAD?
<chillywilly> it's the main trunk of the code, where the development version is
<chillywilly> it's the default branch you commit against
<dtm> ok which may be a dumping ground depending on the project's management policy
<chillywilly> the ever changing one
<derek> im cause im a sick pervert (Think alternative meanings of head for a minute)
<dtm> ok
Action: dtm sticks a pipe cleaner into derek's head, ear to ear, and wiggles and pulls
<chillywilly> basically, dtm branches let you do parallel development
<dtm> yep
<chillywilly>                   (branch on which bug was fixed)
<chillywilly>                 .---------------->---------------.
<chillywilly>                /                                 |
<chillywilly>               /                                  |
<chillywilly>              /                                   |
<chillywilly>             /                                    |
<chillywilly>            /                                     V (<------ point of merge)
<chillywilly>       ====*===================================================================>
<chillywilly>                      (main line of development)
<chillywilly> weee
<dtm> HA!  who made that pic
<chillywilly> the main line there would be called HEAD
<chillywilly> that's fomr the cvs book
<chillywilly> er, from
<dtm> cvs book is ascii?
<chillywilly> well I was reading it with info
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> info cvsbook
<chillywilly> apt-get install cvsbook if on debian
<chillywilly> Introduction
<chillywilly> ************
<chillywilly> This is a set of free, online chapters about using CVS (Concurrent
<chillywilly> Versions System) for collaboration and version control.  It covers
<chillywilly> everything from CVS installation and basic concepts all the way to
<chillywilly> advanced usage and administration.  It is intended for anyone who uses
<chillywilly> or plans to use CVS.
<chillywilly> a branch is like a point in time where you diverged fomr the main line of development as it is separate, although you cn merge changes back and forth between branches at any time
<chillywilly> does this make sense at all?
<dtm> yeah i understand that
<dtm> so basically you have HEAD and you have branches.
<dtm> simple
<chillywilly> good :)
<chillywilly> with HEAD being a special branch that is always there
<dtm> yep
<chillywilly> the 'trunk'
<dtm> and being the default dev
<chillywilly> or main line of development
<dtm> which seems counterintuitive to me; i'd think the stable should be default ;)
<dtm> hehehe
<dtm> but that's me
<dtm> and i'm hungry.
<chillywilly> well you usually only checkout cvs code if you're going to hack (theoretically)
<dtm> haha
<chillywilly> some ppl do keep HEAD 'stable' and start an unstable 'branch'
<chillywilly> you can do it however you want
<chillywilly> jcater and jamest did this the last time with forms, et. al. when they went to add some major features
<chillywilly> iird
<chillywilly> er, iirc
<chillywilly> another example would be ORBit
<chillywilly> they had a development branch and HEAD was the stable 0.5.x series
<dtm> ok
<dtm> gotcha
<dtm> does cvs do incremental checkouts (downloads) not unlike rsync in concept?
<chillywilly> cvs only grabs the 'diffs'
<chillywilly> so once you do the initial checkout usually you're not downloading a lot after that
<chillywilly> it just pacthes the files and grabs new files
<chillywilly> iirc, it does the equivalent as diff -urN old new would do
<dtm> ok
<chillywilly> so, in essence it is incremental, but it is all ASCII of course for the most part as it's used to manage source code, or html files, etc.
<dtm> ok
<dtm> gotcha
<dtm> coz cvs is old skewl
<chillywilly> cvs is cool
<Remosi> er
<Remosi> I believe CVS uploads any files you have that have changed
<Remosi> and does all the processing on the server
<Remosi> which sends you back a diff
<chillywilly> only if you commit your changes
<Remosi> true
<Remosi> actually
<Remosi> I'm not sure
<Remosi> I think it does that for Merges too
<Remosi> (on Update)
<chillywilly> well, you can compress things with -z 
<Remosi> yeah
<chillywilly> I guess it has to transmit it to look do a diff...so it does more than rsync, my bad
<chillywilly> it's not really incremental
<Remosi> right.
<chillywilly> but it won;t do it for files that have not been modified
<chillywilly> will it?
<chillywilly> g'night everyone
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<dtm> reinhard: hi
<reinhard> hi dtm
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<dsmith> Good Morning People!
<jamest> morning
<jamest> here jcater, jcater, jcater
<jamest> here boy
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Action: derek tosses jamest a dozen gibson' donuts
<derek> he tends to 'respond' better to those
<reinhard> hi all
<reinhard> derek: i had an interesting weekend at the fosdem in brussels
<reinhard> i met (among others) rodrigo moya and georg greve
<derek> ah how did it go
Action: derek whats to hear all about it
<reinhard> who both asked for you :)
<reinhard> rms held a speech for about 850 people
<derek> i REALLY REALLY REALLY need to talk to greve
<derek> wonder what rodrigo was wanting?
<derek> been long time since i talked to him (i think he is at ximian now)
<reinhard> we talked about the days back when gnome-db and gnue were working together
<derek> rofl
<reinhard> and he asked me if you are still active in gnue
<reinhard> yes he is at ximian now
<reinhard> the weird thing is he hacks on evolution for ximian
<reinhard> and has to do gnome-db in his spare time
<derek> yeah thats what i heard
<derek> not that he was hacking evolution, but that gnome-db was not a 'ximian' thing
<derek> in many ways that is good
<derek> so what the overall feel of the event?
<derek> did you get to meet rms or bkuhn?
<derek> and did you watch guido get the fsf achievement award?
<reinhard> brb (phone
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<reinhard> back
<reinhard> i _saw_ rms (not that i talked directly to him)
<reinhard> bkuhn was not there
<reinhard> i talked a bit to the fsf europe team
<reinhard> the overall feeling was that the event was organized rather unprofessional
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<reinhard> but with "love"
<reinhard> and i think the term "developer meeting" was appropriate
<reinhard> because there really were no ppl like ibm marketing managers or like that present
<reinhard> and yes i watched the award ceremony
<reinhard> and i watched rms's face when guido praised the philosophy of open source in his speech afterwards :)
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<derek> ouch
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<reinhard> yes that is exactly the word that was written on his face
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<chillywilly> hello
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<chillywilly> sup dawgs
<chillywilly> sup jcater 
<jcater> howdy
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<zwiskle> debian.de
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<derek> hello
<derek> debian.de eh
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<derek> jbailey: how long would it take you to convert that rh5.2 on alpha to debian?
<jbailey> I can do an i386 system without disrupting any services in four hours./
<derek> as i have it up on the net now and recalled its root password
<derek> i have alpha cd's also
<jbailey> I would just apt everything into place.
<jbailey> It's easier because I don't need to preserve any config settings aside from network.  It's harder because I've never played on an alpha before, so I'm not familiar with the bootup process.
Action: derek is debating just doing it from cd and wiping redhat or having you have a hand at an 'upgrade'
<derek> the boot process is different for sure :)
<derek> its bootloader is like a mini operating sytem
<derek> er system
<jbailey> Your call..  I am a little tight on time until I'm back from the wedding.
<derek> when is that
<derek> i dont have urgent need but i should do it sometime soon
<jbailey> 19 days until the wedding.  I'm back on the 18th.
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<jamest> jbailey: you can apt over the top of a RH install?
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<jbailey> jamest: You have to be clever about it.
<jamest> ?
<jbailey> Basically, you need to unpack some dpkg file by hand, enough so that you can run dpkg.  Then you install the base environment.  Then install cruft, and work your way off of that report.
<jbailey> I've found that it's cheaper for my clients to pay me to convert to Debian and then do the work than it is to do complicated things on RH.
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<jamest> doesn't that leave lots of RH gunk around?
<jbailey> Only in /etc.  I haven't found the best way to clean that out yet.
<jamest> hmmmmm
<jamest> interesting idea
<jbailey> There's some gotchas on the way, but I've got it pretty ironed out now.  I've done..  hmm..  a dozen boxes?
<jamest> how about a how-to? :)
Action: jcater is away: I'm busy
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<dtm> chillywilly: hi dan
<dtm> hi ever-buddy
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<tomte> msg jamest hi james, this is nstti-tom :)
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<dsmith> Isomer: Your nick always reminds me of Eomer (from the lord of the rings)
Nick change: Isomer -> Eomer
<Eomer> :)
<jamest> that reminds me of the E-or (spelling?) from Winnie the Pooh
<rm-away> eeore
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<Eomer> jamest: !@#! :)
Action: Eomer starts changing nicks in aloop
Nick change: Eomer -> Eeore
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> night all
<reinhard> i need sleep so badly now
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<jamest> l8r
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<tomte> n8 all
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<chillywilly_> wtf
<chillywilly_> I cannot get my nick back
<chillywilly_> OPN is being gay
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<jamest> lol
<jamest> Eeore is still here
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> who's that?
<chillywilly> OPN has very long timeouts
<jamest> Eeore = Isomer
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> well maybe he likes Eeore
<chillywilly> and he wants to keep that nick
<chillywilly> ;P
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<chillywilly> ew, this cat is nasty
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<chillywilly> gah, I need to get my mom off windows
<chillywilly> I am sick of having to fix it
<jcater> chillywilly: use a trout on her
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> OpenOffice is good enough to do M$ crap right?
<jcater> ja
<chillywilly> I should setup VNC and let her play with it
<jcater> just get her 512Mb of memory
<chillywilly> ween her off of M$
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> I got it on here wit 160MB and it runs fine
<jamest> at least 512MB
<chillywilly> you're not helping guys
<jamest> I've seen 200MB staroffice instances
<jamest> with only 1 file open
<chillywilly> StarOffice is old though
<chillywilly> OO gets all the fixes first
<chillywilly> M$ should just stop being asshilonly takes 20 seconds to load!!
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> woops
<chillywilly> I meant, only takes 20 seconds to load!!
<chillywilly> ok, I admit it...it is damn painful to use
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> however, it is no more painful than a win98 desktop
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> in responsiveness
<chillywilly> she'd never know the difference
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<jcater> ahhh!!!!
<jcater> one chilly is enough!
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<chillywilly_> as you wish
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Nick change: derek -> pooh
Nick change: jcater -> tigger
<pooh> where are tigger and roo?
<pooh> hi tigger
<tigger> hi pooh
<pooh> my what a mighty 'bounce' you have this evening
Action: pooh things christopher robin has given tigger one too many donuts ;)
Nick change: pooh -> derek
<tigger> "I've found somebody just like me. I thought I was the only one of them"
<tigger> "Tigger; a Friendly Tigger, a Grand Tigger, a Large and Helpful Tigger, a Tigger who bounced, if he bounced at all, in just the beautiful way a Tigger ought to bounce."
<tigger>  
Nick change: tigger -> jcater
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<chillywilly> you guys need help
Action: jcater tigger-slaps chillywilly
Action: chillywilly bitch slaps jcater
Action: jcater chillywilly slaps chillywilly
<jcater> oh, wait
<jcater> you already used that one
<chillywilly> boo
<chillywilly> crazymike and chillywilly give that one 2 thumbs down
<derek> rofl
<derek> i liked it
<derek> chillywilly: you need better retorts like....
<derek> jcater chillywilly slaps chillywilly
<derek> oh wait
<derek> you already used that one
<derek> you should have said something equally as insulting like
<chillywilly> maybe I am just too tired to give a shit
<derek> chilly tosses a few old tires around jcater to keep him occupied
<jcater> chillywilly: a bran muffin a day will help with that
<derek> whoops he already has one
<derek> or something like that
<derek> at least he said it right
Action: derek has this pet peeve.....
<derek> people say... ah man i have to TAKE a dump, or i need to TAKE a crap
<derek> why?
<derek> i have never TAKEN such a thing
<derek> leave definitely
<chillywilly> heh, who would've guessed masta has a pet peeve
<derek> give i suppose it depends on who is getting the present
<derek> but take....
<jcater> well, I have to take shit from users all the time
Action: derek is just curious how that got in our vocabularly thats all (not really a pet peeve)
<derek> jcater: yes but we phrase it as 'they are giving you shit again huh'
<chillywilly> how about
<chillywilly> "I have to drop the kids off at the pool
<chillywilly> "
<jcater> chillywilly: well, that one is valid
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> that one is funny
<derek> thats valid at my house
Action: jcater likes "booting computers"
<derek> in fact my 7 year old gets MAD when i dont drop her in the pool
<chillywilly> I mean instaed of saying take a shit, say "time to drop the kids off at the pool"
Action: jcater will now always say, "Pardon me, I need to go take a chillywilly"
<jcater> or should that be "give a chillywilly" ??
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> nevermind
<jcater> "taking" anything w/ "willy" in its name doesn't sound good :)
<chillywilly> you ass
<derek> rofl
<derek> chillywilly: i have never heard the drop the kids off at the pool one
<derek> i like though
<derek> gack
<chillywilly> that's a crazymike original
<derek> im out of mtn dew and down to 3 boxes of dots
<derek> im going into panic mode
<chillywilly> aaaaawoooooga!
[22:17] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
Action: derek admits he is a dot whore
<derek> i do have about 70 boxes of girlscout cookies in the house though :)
<jcater> haha
<jcater> we have our own dotGNUe :)
<derek> roflmao
<jcater> you should send a memo to FSF announcing dotGNUe
Action: chillywilly steals jcater's dotnuts
Action: derek wishes i had a better digital camera
<jcater> (a candy factory management module)
<chillywilly> er, donuts even
<derek> i would take a foto of the box
<chillywilly> please take the image away!
Action: chillywilly is scarred for life
<derek> and add gnue graphics wehre the mason logo is
Action: chillywilly shoves a donut into jcater's mouth
Action: jcater thinks chillywilly has a fetish w/jcater's donuts tonight
<jcater> y'all are making me hungry
<chillywilly> I per ner ate a whole box a dem donuts
<chillywilly> y'all
<jcater> I'm not irish, dude
<jcater> I'm redneck
<jcater> I dun ate me a hole dang box um dem dar rund tings wiffer holes in dem
<derek> jcater: how does forms do its queries
<derek> let me make that more clear
<derek> if i put foo% in a box and hit query 
<derek> does it do 
<derek> where field like 'foo%'
<derek> or
<derek> where upper(field) like 'FOO%'  and foo was converted to FOO? 
<derek> ie.. is it case sensitive
<chillywilly> fooya
<derek> if it is, is there a way in the form to make it so it is not?
<derek> i.e. if i do UPPERCASE
<derek> will it then force my like queries to be uppercase as well?
<jcater> it is case sensitive
<jcater> but if the field is set to case="upper"
<jcater> then that applies to both input and queries
<derek> sweet
<jcater> iirc jamest added a flag to do case insensitive, but I may be wrong :(
<derek> i might have to do that for my form then
<derek> i.e. that is the answer i wanted to hear
<derek> it does it how it should (case sensitive) but you can override for those bozo's that dont consistently enter data :)
<chillywilly> btw, afaik per net is not 'irish'
<chillywilly> s/net/ner
<derek> another question: do we plan on putting menu based copy/cut/paste in the framework?
<chillywilly> you cock smoker
<derek> scuse me?
<derek> crack maybe, cock no way
Action: chillywilly was watching jay and silent bob
<chillywilly> you love the cock
<chillywilly> derek: you have some sorta complex, who says I was talking to you?
<chillywilly> contrary to popular belief and despit your nick name you're not really the "masta" ;P
Nick change: Eeore -> Isomer
<jcater> derek: framework?
<derek> the menus
<derek> i.e. we have file and data or something currently
<jcater> dude
<jcater> check your commit emails
<jcater> it was added last week
<jcater> we have cut, copy, and paste 
<jcater> under an edit menu
<derek> oh i thought i was running pretty current cvs
<derek> i.e. i stopped getting cvs when jamest said 'im dorking cvs' the other day
<chillywilly> man, this cat is pissing me off
<derek> must have been in the 2 or 3 days i didnt update or after he said that, but cool :)
<derek> chillywilly: thats why you should stick to girls
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I'd vote on cats
<jcater> their easier to get rid of
<chillywilly> easier to hide the body
<jcater> it decomposes faster too
<chillywilly> cooperation with KDE?!?!?
Action: chillywilly looks at Gnotices
<chillywilly> wassa matta wit dem eh?
<jcater> ain't htat the truth
<jcater> there's a reason  I don't use gnome
<chillywilly> you need a 'redneck' compatible deaktop? ;)
<chillywilly> er, desktop
<derek> jcater will you be hear for a little bit?
<jcater> a little
<derek> i think our full time developer might be joining us in irc soon :)
<jcater> cool
<jcater> mwahaha
<derek> if you see a paseopirate come in you might want to run ;)
<derek> i.e. get your geas hat on 
<chillywilly> your pops?
<soulstompp> hi
<soulstompp> I am playing with the navigator right now and getting some errors running it
<soulstompp> File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/navigator/GNClient.py", line 38, in ? from gnue.navigator import Actions
<soulstompp> ImportError: cannot import name Actions
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<chillywilly> hi jeff
<jbailey> Heya Daniel.
<chillywilly> http://www.gnome.org/applist/view.php3?name=XdeFactor&prevpage=listrecent.php3&entrylimit=20
<derek> jcater btw designer just rocks
<derek> its saving me a lot of tiem
<derek> hell gnue is saving me a lot of time
<chillywilly> derek: is your dad coming on irc?
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<chillywilly> must...stay...awake...
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-02-19-003-20-SC-DB
<chillywilly> oooh, this is cool
<chillywilly> http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-02-18-003-20-PR-CY-SW
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<derek> hello, you made it
<derek> much easier than aol ;)
<pirate1962> hi
<pirate1962> now what?
<jcater> welcome, papa-masta
<pirate1962> how do?
<chillywilly> hi pirate1962
<pirate1962> greetings to all
<derek> you were willing to work on the application server part right?
<derek> or you want some other hideous task?
<pirate1962> appserver sounds ok for now
<derek> ok we have something written in C that had some lofty goals and works to a degree
<derek> rather than give you the spec for that we have been debating about what we really want in an app server and whether its smarter to 'phase' in functionality
<derek> i was curious since you have worked with websphere a bit in the past
<derek> what did you like about it or not like about it and what did it 'do', i.e. what did the ibm marketing slicks sell it as solving?
Action: derek recalls they mostly label it for web applications, but we will need to support more than the web and was curious if websphere supported similar things
<pirate1962> the early versions were easy to install and operate.
<pirate1962> later versions became too complex and administration functions slowed to a crawl.
<derek> isnt that par for course in ibm?
<chillywilly> sorry to interrupt but did you guys see that award that Guido Van Rossum got from the FSF?
<derek> what functionality did websphere serve?
<pirate1962> it is pretty tighlty integrated with the web and that is all i ever used it for.
<jcater> derek: I think that's par for course in any proprietary software
<derek> chillywilly: yep discussed the other day the irony and that rms was less than having a good time when guido's speech consistently reiterated his gratitude towards 'open source'
<derek> pirate1962: but what did it 'do'
<derek> im thinking our current application server probably in many ways resembles some sort of EnterpriseJavaBeans server more than anything currently
<derek> you still have that redhat box up? and on the net?
<derek> if so probably easiest to have you crab a copy of CVS (the source code)
<derek> as it has the relevant documentation as well
<pirate1962> basically provides a platform for java applications to service the web
<derek> our original goals in an application server were..... (iirc)
<pirate1962> the redhat box is running an old version.
<derek> a. provide n-tier architecture, where db server could be independent of middleware and middleware independent of client and at either tier you could do fail over/load balancing or replication
<derek> b. that storage would be in SQL database but presented as 'objects' for client applications
<pirate1962> i have not finished the setup after reinstall because i plan to create new cds when i get my cdrw replaced.
<derek> c. that the objects methods could be written in any language
<derek> d. some other goals that i dont recall w/o looking at the docs
<derek> what is your opinion?
<derek> the idea roughly would be to get front end developers to not have to really think about backend code yet make it readily reusable over any number of RPC transports like SOAP/CORBA/DCOM/XML-RPC/MSMQ etc etc etc
<pirate1962> similar to websphere except for the object transparency
<derek> how did websphere handle that?
<derek> or did they not give you 'objects' work with
<derek> you have to fashion that yourself if you wanted to play that way?
<pirate1962> basically you are limited to java supported interfaces
<derek> ah
<derek> let me get you some links to some documentation
<chillywilly> there's this nice doc in cvs that someone has been working on in gnue/geas/doc/odmg.txt ;)
<derek> here is an old doc
<pirate1962> multiple languages and transports is a desirable objective, but it comes at a cost.
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/GNUeObjectServer/
<derek> pirate1962: yes we expect a speed penalty for the 'abstraction'
<derek> as really we end up abstracting... database, transport layer and method language
<pirate1962> performance and maintenance become stickier issues.
<derek> we are hoping in many ways maintenance will be better or at least suits will think so
<pirate1962> is the problem a language issue? a transport issue? an application issue?
<derek> as if i have a whole staff of 50 programmers that use vb regularly (yuck)
<pirate1962> the user doesnt care .. they just want it to work.
<derek> having to retrain them to use app server X w/ language X might not be feasible
<derek> BUT if i can use vb for the method code i might even to be able to leverage some of my existing code
<derek> the transport layer abstraction is because if anything transport is in a state of flux
<derek> 2 years ago it was DCOM
<derek> last year it was CORBA
<derek> six months ago it was XML-RPC
<chillywilly> now it's SOAP
<derek> with .net its now SOAP
<derek> abstracting that lets us kind of 'roll' with the flow
<derek> with minimum effort
<derek> and allows maximum types of clients to use the server
<derek> the language abstraction thing im only half sold on (im a python freak) so i woudl be fine with it only supporting python :)
<pirate1962> i am not saying it is a bad idea, only that it has hidden costs.
<jcater> we hope the benefits outway the disadvantages
<derek> i think we see them as real costs
<jcater> we do try to design our APIs with this abstraction in mind; not simply try to mold some existing product to fix our needs after the fact
<jcater> of course, that only takes you so far :)
<pirate1962> you need to be experts in all supported areas just to defend yourself and provide decent service.
<derek> another proposal that is kind of old http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/GEASCache/
<derek> pirate1962: i think this is where open source kicks butt
<chillywilly> man, you're pulling them out of the wood work ;)
<derek> generally what we do is implement our FAVORITE way of doing things but leave an open api for others
<derek> then as the 'expert' in that way comes along they just plug into the API
<derek> like database abstraction we did two or three providers we use regularly and one day code just 'showed up from ibm' for db2 out of the blue
<derek> none of us even had a db2 database to test it against :)
<derek> http://subversions.gnu.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/gnue/geas/doc/overview.txt?rev=1.3&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
<derek> is a more current 'overview' of our app server
<derek> actually here is the cvs tree online
<derek> http://subversions.gnu.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/gnue/geas/doc/
<derek> faq.txt overview.txt odmg.txt are all relevant
<derek> as are probably the .txt's in the other directories
<derek> when were you gonna grab your burner?
<pirate1962> i will take a look at all of them and get back with questions
<chillywilly> there's lots of them gnue/geas/doc/
<derek> as i think it will help a lot to get the cvs tree on a unix box where you can look at the doxygen comments of the code and the code itself some
<pirate1962> i will probably run by frys tomorrow after my allergy shot
<derek> cool
<chillywilly> bah, I should go to bed
<chillywilly> l8r dudes
<pirate1962> gnite
<derek> nite
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<jcater> nite all
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<derek> soulstompp: jcater said you might be interested in this
<derek> http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/reports.txt
<soulstompp> yeah thanks
--- Tue Feb 19 2002