[00:01] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<derek> fitzix: ouch on the bnetd thing
<derek> i hadnt read it
<fitzix> check it out... I'm going to help organize a boycott of Blizzard Entertainment... this could be the big one if it goes to court... think of the rammifications on ALL of our software if this gets through
<derek> well maybe it will force lawyers/judges to address the evilness of the DMCA (or whatever it is)
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<jcater> 'sup, my peeps
<derek> hey dood you ran off an left jbailey hanging
<jcater> dude
<jcater> my crappy cable connection went down
<jcater> and that's crappy, not crappie
<derek> rofl
<jcater> dude
<jcater> I felt really bad
<jcater> cause he'd just said he thought the room cleared when he needed help
<derek> :)
<derek> yeah sure likely story :)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> but it's true
<jcater> well, I'm not sure how long it was out
<jcater> because as soon as wife noticed jcater != internet
<jcater> she took over :(
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<reinhard> off to salzburg
<reinhard> will be back on monday
<reinhard> (maybe sunday)
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<psu> hi steveb
<steveb> hi
<psu> it's a bit quiet in this channel at the moment
<psu> all the USA guys are asleep
<steveb> i've never been here before
<psu> and our main european developer just went off to Salzburg for the weekend
<steveb> ..only just discovered gnue yesterday
<psu> steveb: any questions about gnue?
<steveb> hmm, what proportion is python?
<psu> warning : anything technical and I'll just say "come back this evening when the Yanks are here"
<psu> steveb: as I understand it, most/all of the Forms part is 
<psu> and the GNUe Common module
<psu> The application server was written in C.
<psu> The plan is to use python for most stuff 
<psu> and just rewrite in C where necessary for speed
<steveb> sounds good.
<psu> Not sure if this applies to the app server as well  
<psu> (which is being rewritten)
<psu> or if that is to remain fully in C.
<steveb> thanks. i have to go to work now
<psu> best time to catch people here is the evening European time
<steveb> ok
<steveb> is cvs usable?
<psu> not sure
<psu> there is a lot of active development
<psu> so it tends to get broken with regularity
<psu> best bet is probably to download the 0.1.1 official release off the website
<psu> which OS are you using?
<steveb> linux
<psu> The .tar.gz files are there
<psu> we don't have working debs or rpms at the moment 
<psu> so you will need to resolve dependancies by hand
<psu> main one is that GNUe needs python 2.x
<psu> which is not AFAIK current version in stable debian or redhat
<steveb> i have python2.1
<psu> cool ;-)
<psu> have you ever had python 1.5.2 on the system?
<psu> as I know some people have had problems with getting the 
<psu> 2.x version to take priority
<steveb> yes, i have both. i should be able to figure it out
<psu> this was such a common problem that there is a script somewhere
<psu> that does a python test on your system and tells you how many pythons you have ;-)
<psu> and what to do about it
<psu> jcater is the man to speak to if you need it.
<steveb> ta. now i'm *really* going to work
<psu> ok.
<psu> me too, anyway
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<cslewis> hi. is anyone around that can answer some high level questions about gnue?
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<Artas> hello ra3vat
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<Yurik> re
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<jamest> hi
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<Yurik> jamest hi
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<Yurik> Arturas hi
<Arturas> Hello
<Arturas> test
<Yurik> passed
<Arturas> :)
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<Yurik> jcater hi
<jcater> hello
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<Arturas> Good morning Derek :)
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<Arturas> .
<dneighbo> hello
<dneighbo> or goodnaktis....
Action: dneighbo is improvising
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> almost perfect improvisation :)
<Arturas> sorry for grammar mistakes
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<jasomja> hello
<dneighbo> hi jasomja 
<dneighbo> Arturas we are trying to collect what is most pressing for you to start digging into
<dneighbo> you have the tools installed correct?
<dneighbo> if so have you created any database applications (or tried the samples)?
<dneighbo> if not we should have you do that
<Arturas> I installed all the snapshot except geas and there were no errors
<dneighbo> then we have some action items that need work
<Arturas> yes
<dneighbo> specifically we think you could help a lot with internationalization
<Arturas> ok
<dneighbo> i think we have an uncommitted patch
<Arturas> what is uncomminted?
<dneighbo> but if you could do some testing 
<Arturas> what is uncommitted?
<dneighbo> jamest: will have to speak on that, i dont have the patch
<jamest> it's a patch that allows for unicode in forms IIRC
<jamest> reading/speaking only one language makes it impossible for me to properly test it
<jamest> :)
<jamest> however
<Arturas> ok
<jamest> i18n everywhere in GNUe would be a good thing
<Arturas> ?
<Arturas> what is that i18n??
<Yurik> Artas internationalization
<Yurik> Arturas internationalization
<Arturas> internationalization=locale ?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> i noticed from the logs yesterday that you know a few different languages
<Arturas> yes
<Arturas> it's interesting to learn them and search for differences :)
Action: jcater is away: lunch
<Arturas> :)
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<Arturas> what languages do you know?
<jamest> english
<jamest> barely
<jamest> :)
<Arturas> and what programming languages?
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<jamest> um
<jamest> used lots of them
<jamest> perl, pascal, c, c++, java, vb, fortran, x86 asm, etc, etc
<jamest> however mainly python now
<Arturas> impressing
<jamest> not really
<jamest> just old :)
<Arturas> :)
<jamest> does i18n seem interesting?
<jamest> as we've got lots to do :)
<Arturas> yes, why not
<Arturas> what exactly will i have to do?
<jamest> well
<jamest> take the existing tools 
<jamest> and make with work w/ unicode and/or localization features
<jamest> so that you could write a form in russian
<jamest> have the menus and such appear in russian
<jamest> store russian in the backend
<jamest> it's as much a design job as a coding job
<jamest> as we can do some of this now
<jamest> it's just doing it correctly that needs attention :)
<Arturas> ok
<Arturas> i will be only one who takes care of it?
<jamest> well
<jamest> we're all working in the code
<jamest> and others could step up to help
<jamest> but I imagine you'd be the primary person
<Arturas> ok then :)
<jamest> however
<jamest> if this sounds sucky
<Arturas> :o|
<jamest> then we can find something else
<Arturas> i will do my best
<Arturas> i have a question (problem?)
<Arturas> i installed forms
<jamest> that is a problem :)
<Arturas> they had to be in /usr/local/gnue/forms
<Arturas> in /usr/local/gnue there are doc, etc
<Arturas> but there seem to be no catalog 'forms'
<Arturas> i repeated the installation
<Arturas> there were no errors again
<Arturas> but it told that files 'cannot be copied because they allready exist'
<jamest> that is fine
<Arturas> ???
<jamest> we don't install sample forms
<jamest> you're commands are gfclient
<jamest> gfdesigner
<jamest> your
<jamest> not you're :)
<jamest> they are in /usr/local/gnue/bin
<jamest> IIRC
<Arturas> ok
<Arturas> what is IIRC?
<jamest> if i recall correctly
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> next problem is with GEAS - it doesn't want to install
<Arturas> i run ./autoconfigure
<Arturas> everything is ok
<Arturas> then run make
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<Arturas> and after a few seconds i get an error that:
<Arturas> cannot stat .c
<Arturas> No such file or directory
<Arturas> will i need GEAS?
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<jamest> whoops
<jamest> killed the wrong process #
<jamest> :)
<Arturas> :)
<jamest> wife is here for lunch now
<jamest> I'll be back in 1 hour
<Arturas> sorry, but i'll be unable to be here then
<Arturas> will you be here on Monday?
<Arturas> have to quit today
<Arturas> bye 
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Action: psu is back
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<psu> carwash was closed ;-(
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<Mr_You> heh
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<tomte> hi
<cslewis> howdy
<cslewis> anyone familiar w/ designer on windows?
<tomte> I'm not
<Mr_You> whats the question?
<cslewis> does it work? i can't basic things working, but perhaps i'm doing something wrong
<Mr_You> are you using the latest build?
<cslewis> yes, the latest binary for windows
<Mr_You> update connections.conf
<cslewis> update it to what? i editted and added my own data source (?)
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<Mr_You> cslewis: ok, thats about all I know right now ;-)  is the DB connection working?  i tink the wizard should work now, but not so sure
<psu> cslewis: what database are you working with?
<psu> the wizard doesn't work with all of them yet
<Mr_You> I see
<psu> as it doesn't know how to ask for lists of tables and fields 
<psu> from some obscure databases (like IBM DB2 ;-)
<cslewis> using pypgsql. docs say the wizard works with it. i am able to connect but nothing else
<cslewis> file -> new -> from wizard: brings up a blank window
<Mr_You> what DB?
<Mr_You> oh postgres
<cslewis> right, postgres
<Mr_You> I was wondering about that myself.. what driver is used to connect to postgres from windows?
Action: psu remembers an obscure bug, but thought it had been fixed
<dneighbo> hey
<Mr_You> I think I'll dive into this myself today
<psu> the postgres drivers try to connect using your windows username & pw
<dneighbo> first off wizard works with dbw now :)
<psu> *not* the one defined in connections.conf
<Mr_You> what is dbw?
<dneighbo> s/db2/dbw
<cslewis> the schema navigator shows my table but nothing else seems to work. for ex, should i be able to edit entries in the property inspector?
<dneighbo> i have ugly log
<dneighbo> can we start by restating some of the knowns?
<dneighbo> this machine is too slow to go read logs
<cslewis> dneighbo: knowns relating to my issue or something else?
<dneighbo> yes your issue
<cslewis> me: newbie, platform: windows, code: latest build, driver: pyPgSQL. i cant get designer to do anything useful. it connects to the database and shows it in the schema but everything else fails.
<dneighbo> i abuse designer regularly on windows sometimes even :)
<dneighbo> ok define latest build?
<cslewis> GNUe-Designer-03-feb-2002.exe          03-Feb-2002 11:48   3.9M 
<dneighbo> ok
<dneighbo> let me grab and try here
<dneighbo> make sure its not instant bug :)
<dneighbo> there is lots of work going on so its tough to tell if the nightlies are toast or not
<cslewis> it may be operator error :) i'm trying to do a simple test of the system
<cslewis> i'm stumbling around blindly and most everything i do throws exceptions
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> you have forms and common installed?
<dneighbo> if so from where?
<dneighbo> i dont see builds for those
<cslewis> forms yes. i didn't see common so i assumed it was included in one of the above
<dneighbo> correct its included
<dneighbo> where did you get forms
<cslewis>  GNUe-Forms-snapshot-12-feb-2002.exe    12-Feb-2002 08:51   4.9M 
<dneighbo> hmm this could be the problem
<cslewis> should i try the jan 29 version of both?
<dneighbo> as designer and forms sometimes need to be in sync
<dneighbo> as i assume forms installs the common
<dneighbo> and designer uses common
<dneighbo> so if you have new designer with older common this could be some issue
<dneighbo> yes try same version of both
<dneighbo> let me know what happens then
<cslewis> ok, i'll uninstall and start over. thx for the help.
<cslewis> ok
<dneighbo> i.e. just uninstall designer (from the start/programs)
<dneighbo> er nevermind i guess you have to uninstall both
<dneighbo> to get proper versions
<dneighbo> it should leave your conf files and things though
<cslewis> d/l'ing now...
<jcater> actually, I don't know if our uninstall will leave the conf files
<jcater> jamest noticed this just recently
<dneighbo> jcater: i was just starting to think the same thing :)
<dneighbo> as i just uninstalled my version 
<dneighbo> adn it appears to have eaten them :)
<cslewis> same here
<dneighbo> cslewis: hopefully you didnt make a ton of connection.conf entries :(
Action: dneighbo is sorry, i could swear at one time it didnt eat them
<cslewis> no. its easy to recreate
<dneighbo> cslewis while you are waiting for that mind me asking how you heard about gnue? and what you plan to use it for?
Action: dneighbo is curious like that :)
<cslewis> originally on slashdot, i think. then yesterday searched for info on wxpython.
<cslewis> i want to rewrite a customer/order db. my plan was to use wxpython/python/postgres and do a 3-tier design
<dneighbo> slashdot? wow, not as a main story i suspect
<dneighbo> cslewis nah you want to use gnue :)
<dneighbo> much more simple
<cslewis> then i found gnue
<cslewis> :)
<cslewis> but i understand its 2-tier at the moment
<dneighbo> i promise designer works 
<dneighbo> yes currently it is
<dneighbo> but soon will be n-tier
<dneighbo> we have app server but its getting some over hauling to it
<dneighbo> i think you would find 2 tier would probably work ok for you (unless its already a huge installment)
<dneighbo> until we have n tier ready
<dneighbo> adn then all your forms should be able to stay the same (ie. dont have to rewrite them)
<jcater> well, depends on how you define 2-tier
<jcater> in the sense of remote methods
<jcater> we are only 2-tier
<jcater> at the moment
<jcater> but in the sense of connection proxying, etc
<cslewis> ok i got the older matching versions installed. can somebody hold my hand through a 'hello world' type of thing?
<jcater> we do support some middleware
<jcater> i.e., odbc, etc
<jcater> bbias
<cslewis> my main goal is to have the business logic in python objects
<cslewis> dneighbo: designer seems to be acting the same. i can't do much of anything with it.
<jamest> cslewis: what is wrong?
<cslewis> just trying to test out designer. i can connect to my database, but nothing else.
<cslewis> the wizard window is blank.
<jamest> :(
<cslewis> most other actions throw exceptions
<jamest> is this the release?
<jamest> or a snapshot?
<cslewis> using: windows, jan 29 build of designer and forms, pypgsql
<cslewis> could be operator error?
<cslewis> for instance: i add a button to page. double click the button. the property inspector opens. should i be able to edit properties here?
<cslewis> also: if i save a form and try to execute it, i see several windows open briefly then disappear.
<jamest> hmmm
<jamest> this isn't right (obviously)
<jamest> we really need to do a new release
<jamest> from memory
<jamest> the last win32 release (0.1.1) had login issues with postgresql when windows username didn't match db username
<cslewis> would that prevent me from doing a non-db related form?
<jamest> the matching snapshots after that were quick bundles of the current cvs tree
<jamest> no it should not
<jamest> cslewis: where are you located
<cslewis> new mexico
<jamest> as I'll be home in < 4 hours
<jamest> and could whip up some new snapshots
<jamest> of forms and designer
<cslewis> i should be getting to work in about 4 hrs. i'll be there for 2-3 hours
<jamest> ah
<cslewis> will you put them on the website or somewhere else?
<jamest> i will put them on the website
<jamest> but
<jamest> if you give me your email
<jamest> i'll send you the URL to them the moment they are done
<cslewis> excellent. i'll check there. i'll also try to synch up the usernames and see if that changes them
<cslewis> csl@balticave.com
<cslewis> thanks for your help
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<cslewis> forgot to mention: i'm using NT 4.0. i assume there arent any major known issues with that.
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<cslewis> with designer, should i be able to save and execute a blank form?
<cslewis> or is there some basic functionality i have to implement?
<cslewis> here the traceback i get:
<jamest> yes
<cslewis> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<cslewis> DB000:   File "<string>", line 54, in ?
<cslewis> DB000:   File "c:\python21\gnue\forms\gfclient.py", line 118, in run
<cslewis> DB000:   File "c:\python21\gnue\forms\gfclient.py", line 154, in runForm
<cslewis> DB000:   File "C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\GFInstance.py", line 509, in activate
<cslewis> DB000:   File "C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\GFEvent.py", line 76, in dispatchEvent
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<cslewis> DB000:   File "C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\GFEvent.py", line 87, in processEvent
<cslewis> DB000:   File "C:\PYTHON21\gnue\forms\UIbase.py", line 273, in updateEntry
<cslewis> DB000: AttributeError: 'None' object has no attribute 'hidden'
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> this was a bug in cvs
<jamest> that we squashed this week IIRC
<cslewis> ok, i'll wait for the new build
<jamest> i didn't think it was in the last snapshot
<jamest> but w/ designer
<jamest> you get basic stuff out of the box
<cslewis> i'm excited to see it in action. i hope i can use it on my project
<jamest> i do too
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i think you'll find the cvs stuff a lot nicer anyway
Action: jamest would love to release
<jamest> but we're still testing
<cslewis> well i'll be using on both win & unix.
<cslewis> but i'm kind of a unix desktop weenie and i don't yet have a working x server
<cslewis> what compiler do you use to compile the windows version?
<jamest> it's all in python
<jamest> we use mcmillian installer to create an image of the python install on our machine
<jamest> then inno to create the setup.exe
<cslewis> oh, is it only geas that's in c?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> on the forms/designer side of things
<jamest> we're doing python 
<jamest> then if we find performance issue
<jamest> that can't be fixed via cleanup or design
<jamest> we'll recode that piece in C
<jamest> hasn't happened yet though :)
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<tomte> back again, strange I got my 24 hours ISP-disconnect, but I'm still here as tomte_away
<psu> tomte: this irc server has a very long time out IIRC
<tomte> maybe someone can kick tomte_away?
<tomte> split personality ;)
<psu> don't worry, we're used to it
<psu> several people log the channel both at work and at home 
<psu> so are always in duplicate ;-)
<tomte> hehe
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<psu> oh look, there he goes
<tomte> cool, myself at last :)
Action: psu is away: back in 30 mins
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<chillywilly> yo
Action: psu is back
<chillywilly> gah
<chillywilly> anyone readthat bnetd article?
<chillywilly> on newsforge
<chillywilly> that fitzix pasted here last night
<psu> nope
<psu> got the url to hand?
<psu> found it
<chillywilly> yep
<psu> http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/02/21/1344204&mode=thread
<chillywilly> http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/02/21/1344204&mode=thread
<chillywilly> jinx
<chillywilly> looks as though ESR even posted
<chillywilly> I bet that first response was fitzix's ;)
<chillywilly> I can tell
<psu> the logical work-around is to relocate servers to outside US
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> this stuff makes me damn sick man
<chillywilly> anyone who uses the DMCA to beat ppl down with deserves to be boycotted
<psu> but of course, no-one has ever told Congress that they don't control the internet outsid the USA
<chillywilly> dude, I don't even see how it is a DMCA violation
<chillywilly> it does break the copy protection it just doesn't enforce it
<chillywilly> even if they had a pirated copy installed wtf does that have to do with the server?
<psu> bnetd could always call their bluff
<chillywilly> it would've been pirated long before they hooked up to the server
<psu> & ask for access to their CD key database
<chillywilly> hehe
<psu> & refuse connections from pirated/multiple CDs
<psu> s/pirat*/'pirat*'
<psu> since copying a non-free CD, whilst morally indefensible
<psu> isn;t in the same league as real piracy
<chillywilly> well, ppl should just take the high road and use Free software :)
<chillywilly> this is more admirable, imho
<psu> chillywilly: I've read a lot about SOAP
<chillywilly> this sheds some light on my stance on games though
<chillywilly> oh?
<psu> would you regard it as a standard or a proprietary tech
<psu> ?
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> it is a W3C standard
<psu> or a java-style proprietary standard
<psu> oh OK
<chillywilly> (which so far is free)
<chillywilly> in both senes of the word
<chillywilly> er, senses
<chillywilly> heh, someone says that Diablo is based on rogue and hack
<psu> UK govt is likely to make it mandatory for use in public sector systems
<chillywilly> maybe even nethack
<chillywilly> that is sorta lame
<psu> if it was, like, dotNet, I would whinge
<nickr> thats sort of like saying windows is based on macintosh
<psu> they are already hardcore on products that support XML
<chillywilly> nickr: well I haven't played ,uch of any of those games
<chillywilly> er, much
<nickr> I'w never played diablo, but I heard good things about it from fans.
<chillywilly> psu: well I suppose it is ok, but it could be abused
<nickr> I agree with the post that says ID software's model is good
<nickr> they have a huge good reputation
<chillywilly> ID is cool
<chillywilly> they have a nice balance
<chillywilly> psu: what if someone wanted to use CORBA?
<nickr> I want to use corba
<chillywilly> what if someone comes up with something better?
<psu> chillywilly: theoretically, these standards are mandatory
<psu> i.e. govt agencies can't buy anything non-compliant
<chillywilly> (or I should say what happens when someone comes up with the next best thing)
<chillywilly> (cause you know they will)
<psu> chillywilly: I guess the standard gets changed - eventually
<psu> they are also very keen on web based applications 
<psu> which will go down well in parts of AZ...
<psu> something like gnue, where you have max flexibility 
<psu> with multi platform and
<psu> db and rpc access all abstracted
<psu> might well end up being the only thing that meets all the requirements
<chillywilly> cool
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<psu> http://www.e-envoy.gov.uk/publications/frameworks/egif3/contents.htm
<psu> pretty dry stuff, I know
<psu> best bit is that the use of XML schemas is mandatory
<chillywilly> well this is a nice step
<psu> but at the moment, only one (property db) has been defined 
<chillywilly> however, do they make a case for the license of the software or do they think it will be enough to have a n open standard?
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> you seem to have answered my question already ;)
<psu> there is nothing to stop a proprietary ERP vendor complying with all these "open"/free standards
<psu> in fact, if they ever want to make a govt sale again, they have to.
<psu> but because s/w like gnue thrives on standards
<psu> even uses them natively
<psu> rather than an afterthought 
<psu> it's pro-freedom generally
<chillywilly> well...we are trying anyway, that's where I want to push GEAS ;)
<psu> http://www.govtalk.gov.uk/interoperability/agreedschema.asp
Action: chillywilly needs learn more about xml stuff
<nickr> its interesting hov often times free software is all about satisfying standards
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> it definitely is funny
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<chillywilly> maybe because we have nothing to gain by trying to embrace and extend them
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> standard == no lock in
<psu> or less lock in, anyway
<psu> as more clueful users are beginning to realise
<chillywilly> speaking of which
<nickr> I think its more of a pride thing to be standard compliant, also a shortcut to possibly quality designs
Action: chillywilly adds more notes to odmg.txt
<psu> has anyone got admin access on the website?
<psu> I posted an announcement for KC 16 which hasn't been approved yet
<psu> and KC 17 is almost ready to go ;-)
<chillywilly> I saw it on the mailling list
<chillywilly> only jamest and derek have access, AFAIK
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<chillywilly> anyone know what a julian date is?
<nickr> Yes
<psu> no of days since date x
<nickr> Its the yea
<psu> can't remember which
<psu> 1/1/1900 sounds convincing
<nickr> No
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<jcater> January 1, 4713 BC
<jcater> http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/JulianDate.html
<jcater> 'sup my peeps?
<nickr> 4000-something BC
<nickr> yea
<nickr> http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~aaronb/stargaze/juliandate.html
<chillywilly> thanks
<chillywilly> jcater: wassup dawg
<nickr> jcater: fast bastard
<psu> oh well, I was only 5000+ years out ;-)
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<ICJ> Hi"!
<chillywilly> ello
<psu> good evening
<ICJ> read my email concerning privacy laws?
Action: dneighbo is too dumb to read, he can only write
<chillywilly> privacy schmivacy
<psu> ICJ: I don't think it's a major issue, basically just good data protection
<chillywilly> j/k
<psu> the UK has already implemented the directive 
<psu> and the sky hasn't yet fallen
<psu> of course, US data protection laws are much weaker
<psu> hence the need for "safe harbour" provisions
<psu> for companies wanting to share data from EU to US arms
<ICJ> <psu> ICJ: I don't think it's a major issue, basically just good data protection
<dneighbo> i didnt read it yet
<ICJ> well, the technical thing is the "the user's consent has to be documented"
<dneighbo> but i will say this
<dneighbo> looks as though you are saying Europe is going gungho privacy
<dneighbo> while US is going gungho let corporate intellectuall 'property' override everything
<dneighbo> with addition of 'terrorist' legislation
Action: dneighbo fears soon we will see following:
<dneighbo> in Europe its against the law for software to easily get at customer data or transmit
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> in US its MANDATORY for software to easily get at customer data and transmist it :)
<dneighbo> boy wont that be fun
<dneighbo> why no didier you need your software flag : 'screw customer' set to false if you are in France
<psu> ok my e-mail is FUBAR
<psu> anyone know how to make exim ignore smtp requests
<psu> instead of bounce them?
<jcater> apt-get install postfix ?
<jcater> j/k
Action: jcater doesn't
<psu> I don't want to receive mail on Debian yet
<psu> so set exim to local 
<psu> but it seems to be bouncing stuff
<psu> <clueless>what would be the implication if I deinstalled exim and had no mta at all</clueless>
<psu> or do I not even want to go there?
<jcater> I don't think that's a big deal
<jcater> if you have a remote machine to do smtp with
<jcater> e.g., an isp
<psu> I think my isp is the only one in uk that tries to deliver mail via both smtp and pop
<psu> nope, this isn't going to work
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<psu> if I uninstall exim, all my dependancies go phut
<chillywilly> you read the docs yet?
<psu> chillywilly: i looked at exim.conf, but it looks 
<psu> busy
<psu> also did man exim
<chillywilly> apt-get install exim-doc
<chillywilly> iirc
<chillywilly> or
<chillywilly> apt-get install exim-doc-html
<psu> cheers
Action: chillywilly uses exim but only the dialup fongiration
<chillywilly> er configuration
<chillywilly> the option that tells it to use a smarthost
<nickr> I wrote a local only mailer for routers that need like logrotate but don't want exim or any smtp server
<nickr> Its not completely stable but it works reasonably well
<psu> i'm not sure exim is even the culprit
<psu> it may be working exactly as I want 
<chillywilly> that's who usually bounces your mail
<psu> and it's just inetd that's telling incoming smtp connections to FOAD
<psu> anyway, I should be able to solve this a bit better after some sleep
<chillywilly> foad, hehe
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Action: dneighbo hungry he want foad
<dneighbo> bbllg
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<chillywilly> foad == fuck off and die
<chillywilly> iirc
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<dsmith> chillywilly: It's actually how to start a daemon. "fork off and die".  The child process continues to run in the background.
<chillywilly> yes I know, but I don't tell ppl to fork off
<chillywilly> I was thinking of it in a different context
Action: chillywilly is an evil bastard remember?
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<dsmith> Actually, I made it up. :) It sounded good though.
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<jamest> did derek really go to sleep?
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<jamest> yo!
<jamest> jcater
<jamest> wazzup
<jcater> yo! ChanOp Jamest
<jcater> rofl
<jcater> I love zope's debugging logs
<jcater> ------
<jcater> 2002-02-23T00:15:41 INFO(0) zdaemon zdaemon: Fri Feb 22 18:15:41 2002: Houston, we have forked
<jcater> ------
<jcater> 2002-02-23T00:15:41 INFO(0) zdaemon zdaemon: Fri Feb 22 18:15:41 2002: Houston, we have forked
<jcater> ------
<jcater> 2002-02-23T00:15:41 INFO(0) zdaemon zdaemon: Fri Feb 22 18:15:41 2002: Hi, I just forked off a kid: 320
<nickr> heh
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jamest!~jamest@fh-dialup-201091.flinthills.com: GNUe - like you've got anything better to do on a friday night
<jamest> ahhhhh
<nickr> amen
<jamest> what power
Action: jcater bows before the mighty jamest
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Action: dsmith is playing with his modem
Action: dsmith is also waiting for pizza
<dsmith> Anyone here remember modems?
<nickr> mo dem?
<nickr> Sounds like some homey speak
<dsmith> heh
<dsmith> I'm trying to get my modem to spit out callerid stuff, but it seems like it isn't even responding to a ring.
<dsmith> I wonder if I have too many phones plugged in, and the ring signal isn't strong enough for the modem.
<nickr> I'm painfully transferring netbsd/hpcmips over a 56k link
<dsmith> nickr: hpcmips?
<nickr> Handheld PC
<dsmith> Ah
<nickr> wince
<dsmith> Ug
<nickr> well yea, theres a reason I'm transferring netbsd to it
<nickr> :)
<dsmith> I put netbsd on an old sun3 once.  It was fun. obsd was too big.
<nickr> netbsd is sleek
<dsmith> Netbsd runs on cobalt mips!
<nickr> yea
<nickr> I can't wait for debian/netbsd ;)
<dsmith> too true
<nickr> argh, this is too slow
<nickr> 2,085,452 takes hov long over 56k?
<nickr> hrm.
<dsmith> nickr: So, do you remember how to get a modem to say 'RING' when the phone rings? (don't answer, just spit out 'RING')
<nickr> I wish the stupid browser had like a speed and percent indicator
<nickr> dsmith: it should be the defgault that it does that
<dsmith> nickr: use wget
<nickr> there is no wget for hpc
<dsmith> nickr: but it has a browser?
<nickr> yea, IE
<nickr> the weird, embedded version of IE
<dsmith> Ah.
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<chillywilly> hey
Action: dsmith is sad the nickr has to use ie, but glad he is using it for netbsd
<chillywilly> my mom works for a law firm
<chillywilly> and they are looking for software to manage things
<chillywilly> gonna have to pitch GNUe to them ;)
<nickr> this would all be much easier if my flash card reader worked with smartmedia
<perico> I all. I have recently discovered GNUe and would like to try it and, if possible collaborate on it but I'm lost
<perico> Any advice on how to begin will be very wellcome !
<jamest> what are you looking for perico?
<jamest> er, what are your needs?
<perico> well, I'm a freelance programmer and think that GNUe may be perfect for me if I find a way to make it work !
<jamest> ah
<jamest> ok
<jamest> well
<jamest> have you downloaded any code?
<jamest> or the CVS tree?
<perico> Yes, in fact I have just unzip the windows ZIP with everything (not easy to find) and having a look at it.
<perico> What i find quite confusing is the way the different modules interact, ie what do you need to run the thing
<chillywilly> hey jamest, could you do a text export of the forms tech ref for me?
<chillywilly> please  :)
<jamest> perico: so you are on windows?
<jamest> chillywilly: i'll do it right now
<chillywilly> yipee :)
Action: chillywilly needs to get forms friendly
<perico> well, in fact I'm on both windows and linux but currently I have not a good modem to acces inet from linux so right now I'm on windows ...:(
Action: chillywilly adds more notes to odmg.txt
<jamest> perico: ok
<jamest> if you give me a sec I can try and help
Action: jamest is working on new win32 snapshots
<jamest> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jamest/techref.txt
<jamest> for you chillywilly
<jamest> perico: ok
<jamest> geas won't run on win32 so that is out 
<jamest> that leaves
<chillywilly> than you
<jamest> common, forms, designer
<chillywilly> er, thank
<jamest> chillywilly: it's a bit outdated
<jamest> but not bad
<chillywilly> this is not the cvs version?
<jamest> chillywilly: it is however the trigger namespace is in flux
<jamest> so not documented
<jamest> i planned to update the doc prior to release
<chillywilly> a 0.1.2 release?
<jamest> perico: common is the core of the other apps
<jamest> it gives you db access, app framework, etc
<jamest> forms is our end user UI client
<jamest> deisgner builds the xml based .gfd files that forms runs
<jamest> chillywilly: maybe a 0.3.0 release
<jamest> a lot has changed
<chillywilly> ooooh
<chillywilly> true
<perico> just a quick question, is the system development statutus? I mean, is it under strong development or usable?
<jamest> so
<jamest> the system is usable and is in use in a few places
<chillywilly> jamest: so using 0.1.1 would be the best bet for a stable system this time around?
<jamest> no
<chillywilly> how long off is the release?
<jamest> er
<jamest> sigh
Action: jamest is now depressed
<chillywilly> don't be
<jamest> 0.1.1 is lacking alot compared to cvs
<jamest> however cvs took some serious abuse over the last few weeks
<chillywilly> well I am going to play with cvs then ;)
<jamest> so she's stable but not well tested
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> okey dokey
<chillywilly> I need to get postgres going once again
Nick change: dnSleep -> derek
<perico> well, thanks for helping, I'll better take a closer look. I'll be  back !
<jamest> perico: how heavy the devel is depends on the workloag
<jamest> workload
<jamest> but
<jamest> cvs should work most the time
<jamest> or get fixed quickly
<jamest> as I need to working at work :)
<jamest> to = it
<chillywilly> :)
<jamest> a few of us are in that boat
<jamest> so we don't break cvs intentionally 
<jamest> (very often :)
<chillywilly> well I was talking to my mom and they are a small firm that needs some nice software
<jamest> nice software....damn......think they'd settle for GNUe?
<chillywilly> sure
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> anything is better than nothing
Action: derek is back (gone 71:15:43)
<chillywilly> (which is what they have)
<derek> man all that sleep i was gone nearly 3 days :)
perico (perico@213-98-201-180.uc.nombres.ttd.es) left irc: 
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> you were in hybernation
<jcater> yeah
<chillywilly> jamest: is the lyx version current?
<jcater> too much pizza and dots will do that to ya
<derek> hey now, it was the donuts that did me in dood
<jamest> chillywilly: no
<chillywilly> ah well
<jamest> you've got the lyx version freshly converted
<chillywilly> is that text one you extracted form cvs though?
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> ok
<jamest> yes
<chillywilly> groovy
<jamest> didn't check it though for accuracy
<jamest> figured you'd yell if something didn't work
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> no problem
<derek> i need to get some foad ;9
<derek> brb
<chillywilly> anyone know where I can find something that explains better what the diff is between an inner and outer join?
<derek> right here
<chillywilly> the one postgres guide I was reading was damn confusing
<derek> an inner join only includes rows where BOTH tables are the same
<derek> and outer join includes all of either the left or right table and only the matching of the other
<chillywilly> jcater: and you say OO crap ius confusing...I think relational calculus is also damn confusing
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> you got an example?
<jcater> old skool people don't use inner/outer joins :)
<chillywilly> hehe
Action: jcater is old skool sql
<chillywilly> I thought that was the power of sql
<chillywilly> joins and shit
<chillywilly> btw, nice topic ;)
Action: chillywilly knows how to use select and all those goodies
<jcater> we'll have you thinking relationally soo 
<jcater> soon
<jcater> mwahahahaha
<chillywilly> nothing wrong with relational
<chillywilly> just it's not as extensible as inheritance ;P
<jcater> different tools for different needs
<chillywilly> sure
Action: jcater likes to program w/objects
<jcater> but would never want to store my large-scale database as objects
<chillywilly> no object to relational mapper?
<chillywilly> so you would never use geas if it became usable?
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> um
<jcater> at ncs
<jcater> probably not
<jcater> for a new venture
<jcater> possibly
<chillywilly> you don't want to spend the time redesigning as objects?
<chillywilly> is that why?
<chillywilly> or you think performance would suck
<jcater> um
<jcater> a mixture of both
<chillywilly> don't fix it if it ain't broke
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> largely, it has to do with maintenance and expandability
<jcater> and I know that's supposed to be the argument w/objects
<chillywilly> uhuh
<jcater> but long-term, I haven't seen an object schema that stands the test of time
<jcater> but then again, I'm used to thinking relationally :)
<derek> =============
<jcater> but, heh, there's room for both in this world
<chillywilly> fair enough
<derek> TABLE ONE                     TABLE TWO
<derek> FIRST_NAME   PHONE_ID         ID  PHONE
<derek> JASON           1              1  551-5555
<derek> PETE            2              2  552-5555
<derek> PAUL            3              3  553-5555
<derek> MIKE            1              4  554-5555
<derek> DAN             2              5  555-5555
<derek> JAMEST                         6  556-5555
<derek> INNER JOIN
<derek> FIRST_NAME   PHONE_ID         ID  PHONE
<derek> JASON           1              1  551-5555
<derek> PETE            2              2  552-5555
<derek> PAUL            3              3  553-5555
<derek> MIKE            1              1  551-5555
<derek> DAN             2              2  552-5555
<derek> LEFT OUTER JOIN
<derek> FIRST_NAME   PHONE_ID         ID  PHONE
<derek> JASON           1              1  551-5555
<derek> PETE            2              2  552-5555
<derek> PAUL            3              3  553-5555
<derek> MIKE            1              1  551-5555
<derek> DAN             2              2  552-5555
<derek> JAMEST                         
<derek> RIGHT OUTER JOIN
<derek> FIRST_NAME   PHONE_ID         ID  PHONE
<derek> JASON           1              1  551-5555
<derek> PETE            2              2  552-5555
<derek> PAUL            3              3  553-5555
<derek>                                4  554-5555
<derek>                                5  555-5555
<derek>                                6  556-5555
<derek> dinner time bbs
<jcater> ooooo.... it's fun with joins!
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<jcater> come back tomorrow for "Fun with Unions!"
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> can you do a union in sql?
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> I guess any set operations right
<chillywilly> as that
<chillywilly> s the basis
<chillywilly> you have a set with relations, iirc
<jcater> purdy much
<derek> jcater: i dont do unions :)
<jcater> a select returns a "set"
<jcater> so the union of set 1 with set 2 is
<derek> btw: im assuming my samples were correct its been a while
<jcater> select column from table1 UNION select column from table2
Action: chillywilly sings "ir's been a while"
<chillywilly> er, it's
<chillywilly> sorry, you started it
<chillywilly> a uniojn gives you waht is common in the sets right?
Action: chillywilly tries to remember some math
<jcater> no
<chillywilly> doh
<jcater> union is a distint join 
<jcater> intersect is the common stuff
<jcater> minus is what's in #1 and not in #2
Action: jcater uses oracle's flavor of unions
<jcater> I'm not sure if their union keywords are SQL92
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> maybe I should read that papaer again once
<chillywilly> but when they start doing set notation my brain just turns off ;)
<chillywilly> I hate when they get all theoretical with the notation
<chillywilly> it's worse than calculus
<chillywilly> well, if I were to write a GNUe solution today I would probably go with a 2-tier forms silution anyway as geas is lacking too much for my tastes
<jcater> one of the biggest lackings in geas is the ability to contruct complex conditions
<jcater> we hit that roadblock pretty hard w/the forms driver
<chillywilly> you mean mutiple ands?
<jcater> multiple/nested
<chillywilly> with nots and junk?
<chillywilly> desc
<chillywilly> what's a nested condition look like?
<chillywilly> er, nevermind
<chillywilly> you mena like a condition that uses another condition inside it right?
<jcater> (salary > 40000 and office = 2) or title = 'Manager'
<chillywilly> yep
<chillywilly> I got it ;)
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> sorry
<nickr> sweet, netbsd boots
<chillywilly> infidel
Action: jcater has been meaning to do netbsd on my DreamCast
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> grooovy
<nickr> jcater: debian on DC
<chillywilly> but will you be able to play games on it if you do thayt jcater?
<jcater> debian runs on DC?
<nickr> yea
<jcater> dude
<jcater> really?
<nickr> I'm fairly sure
<nickr> I think i have a link
<chillywilly> doesn't that turn it into another computer then?
<chillywilly> instead of a game console
Action: jcater wants to do some embedded/consumer level stuff
<nickr> jcater: http://www.m17n.org/linux-sh/dreamcast/
<jcater> and wanted to play w/DC
<chillywilly> mmmm
<chillywilly> embedded
<chillywilly> you need to get GNUe running on DC
<chillywilly> hehe ;)
<chillywilly> we don't believe in playing
<chillywilly> just do some data entry dagnabit
<jcater> actually
<jcater> that is one of my goals
<chillywilly> rofl
<chillywilly> casn I do data entry with my game controller?
<jcater> yes
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> to prove a point :)
<nickr> My friend wanted to replace all the workstations in the company with DCs cause they are cheaper than PCs
<jcater> all you need is X running
<chillywilly> that's funny
<jcater> and you could do diskless-style network
<jamest> $20 keyboard, $60 DC
<chillywilly> you are evil man
<jamest> and a TV
<nickr> live CD
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> that would be pretty cheap
<nickr> use NFS for the homedirs
<nickr> Mmm, Its gonna be seeet to have a unixlike on this hpc
<nickr> it has a full kb
<nickr> it'll be a nice wireless workstation
<chillywilly> in relational jargon what's a tuple?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<derek> thats not a relational term
<derek> persay but rather a programming one
<jamest> i need people to stress test cvs
<derek> jamest i can do that in a few
<jamest> please
Action: jcater jumps up and down on cvs
Action: jcater grabs his hammer, torch, and safety glasses
<jamest> no goats?
<chillywilly> derek: yes it is
<chillywilly> derek: it's part of the relational model dawg
<chillywilly> I read it in the postgresql tutorial
<jamest> ah
<derek> um postgres uses jacked up language to a degree :)
<jamest> in postgresql's terms
<jamest> it is a record
<jcater> chillywilly: this buds for you
<derek> most SQL folks call it a result or record set
<chillywilly> yea, I dun figured that out
<jcater> http://www.chimu.com/publications/objectRelational/
<chillywilly> jcater: thanks dude
<derek> and then the it's a 'row' or a 'record' ;)
<chillywilly> derek: yes and so does postgres, but this crap in the tutorial is the theoretical methematical stuff, uses set notation and subscripts
<chillywilly> they even say that a row == tuple at a different point, but i forgot what it said a tuple was and I got unlazy and went back and looked
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> and...
[20:45] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<chillywilly> too many friggin ands
<chillywilly> this and is and not and a and run and on and sentence
<dsmith> I liked the unlazy part
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> if !lazy:
<chillywilly>   rtfm()
Action: chillywilly is not sure '!' is valid python syntax
<chillywilly> any takers?
<chillywilly> did I get it right?
<chillywilly> ok, their outer join example makes sense I think
<jcater> if not lazy: 
<jcater>   rtfm()
<chillywilly> doh!
<dsmith> Anyone here know modems well?
<chillywilly> bah, this is loopy
<jamest> not well, i just have to use them 
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> this is fucking with my head
<chillywilly> a cross join
<chillywilly> inner join on true
<chillywilly> does anybody use this shit?
<jamest> i dont
<jamest> i use where clauses
<jamest> i'm oldskool
<chillywilly> hehe
<dsmith> I had a wierd query I couldn't figure out. (note I am *NO* sql wizard!)
<dsmith> Maybe you guys could help.
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> [20:52:47] * crazymike beats chillywilly with the smoke pole
<dsmith> There are about 3 or 4 (maybe 5) tables. One col in each table has the thing (it's a tape lable, as in backup tapes)
<dsmith> I needed a list of all lables, and which tables they were in.
Action: dsmith scrolls back to look at the join example
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<jcater> select 'mytablename', labelfield from table1 where type = 'label' UNION
<chillywilly> union?
<jcater> select 'mytablename', labelfield from table2 where type = 'label' UNION
<jcater> select 'mytablename3', labelfield from table3 where type = 'label' UNION
<chillywilly> I thought those were outlawed by da masta?
<jcater> ...
<jcater> no
<jcater> masta said he didn't use them
<dsmith> Hmmm.
<jcater> there's a difference
<jamest> jcater: that only covers the 1st 3 tables.....what about the other 2
Action: jamest runs
<jcater> jamest: I already looked
<jcater> the other 2 tables don't have anything
<dsmith> heh
<jamest> ah ok
<dsmith> Hmm.  I didn't explain very well.
<dsmith> The result should be something like:
Action: dsmith fires up an editor
<dsmith> label  library  offsite scratch stgpool
<dsmith> ---------------------------------------
<dsmith> TAPE01  y       n       n       tapepool
<dsmith> TAPE02  y       n       y       -
<dsmith> TAPE03  n       y       n       copypool
<dsmith> TAPE05  n       y       y       -
<dsmith> The tables are library, offsite, scratch and stgpool
<dsmith> Kinda wierd eh?
<dsmith> I want to get a list of all tapes, and what tables they are in.
<dsmith> Orderd by tape lable
<jcater> does your database support subselects as table names?
<dsmith> It's an embedded db2.  I'm not sure.
<jcater> ah
<jcater> does embedded db2 support views?
<dsmith> In this application, no.
<chillywilly> are those both SQL92 features?
<jcater> hmm
<dsmith> I only have a SELECT.
<jcater> chillywilly: not sure of that's SQL92 otr not to be honest
Action: chillywilly whispers something about GNUe Forms
<dsmith> It's actually part of a backup system. (Tivoli Storage Manager)
<dsmith> Just wondering.
<jcater> can you test an sql statement...
<dsmith> Well, it's not really sql, just a select.
<jcater> select label from (select label from library)
<jcater> I have no idea what embedded db2 supports
<dsmith> Ahh.  sub-select.
<dsmith> This was about 2 years ago I needed this, so I'm kinda cloudy.
<dsmith> Figured it was some kind of a join, but a union sounds interesting.
<jcater> if it supported subselects, then
<jcater> select label, max(library), max(offsite), max(scratch), max(stgpool) from
<jcater> (
<jcater> select label, 'y' as library, 'n' as offsite,'n' as scratch, '-' as stgpool from library
<jcater> UNION
<jcater> select label, 'n' as library, 'y' as offsite,'n' as scratch, '-' as stgpool from offsite
<jcater> UNION
<jcater> select label, 'n' as library, 'n' as offsite,'y' as scratch, '-' as stgpool from scratch
<jcater> UNION
<jcater> select label, 'n' as library, 'n' as offsite,'n' as scratch, stgpool as stgpool from stgpool
<jcater> )
<jcater> group by label
<jcater> is what you could do
<jcater> if it supported views
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<jcater> then the subselect could be replaced with a view
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Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<jcater> if neither are supported, I'm not sure :(
<dsmith> Hmmm. Thnaks
Action: dsmith saves the irc buffer for further study
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<chillywilly> yay
Action: chillywilly is going to go bowling
Action: jcater is away: reading
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--- Sat Feb 23 2002