[00:05] Last message repeated 1 time(s). alexey (Alexey@techkran.vladimir.ru) left irc: Remote closed the connection alexey (~Alexey@195.151.214.33) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d16.as20.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: evsalvador (~evsalvado@210.14.26.223) joined #gnuenterprise. evsalvador (evsalvado@210.14.26.223) left irc: Client Quit koki (~kalo@212.56.19.190) joined #gnuenterprise. koki (kalo@212.56.19.190) left irc: Client Quit evsalvador (~evsalvado@210.14.26.223) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@ics.elcom.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. help evsalvador (~evsalvado@210.14.26.223) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). noel_s (~noel_s@210.14.26.223) joined #gnuenterprise. noel_s (noel_s@210.14.26.223) left irc: "Client Exiting" noel_s (~noel_s@210.14.26.223) joined #gnuenterprise. noel_s (~noel_s@210.14.26.223) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). psu (peter@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (peter@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: "[x]chat" reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.2) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dtm (dtm@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) lekma (~kiki@node1142c.a2000.nl) joined #gnuenterprise. lekma (~kiki@node1142c.a2000.nl) left #gnuenterprise. lekma (~kiki@node1142c.a2000.nl) joined #gnuenterprise. hi everyone reinhard you there? lekma: yes how are you today? i have a newbie question lekma (kiki@node1142c.a2000.nl) left irc: "Client Exiting" ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-4-ip114.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan_ (~stuq@c5300-3-ip149.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-73-63.kc.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: mdean -> mdean-[work] alexey (Alexey@195.151.214.33) left irc: "[x]chat" ToyMan (stuq@c5300-4-ip114.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) Vooch (~Vooch@adsl-63-164-46.bna.bellsouth.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan_ (stuq@c5300-3-ip149.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" ToyMan (~stuq@c5300-3-ip149.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: dnSleep -> derek Vooch (Vooch@adsl-63-164-46.bna.bellsouth.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Vooch (~Vooch@adsl-63-164-74.bna.bellsouth.net) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@62.47.45.2) left irc: "The more often you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets" drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: "later.." Action: drochaid wants a fight ... Action: drochaid looks for chillywilly jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. feasgar math jcater derek: you here? Action: ToyMan 's Access problems are now officially extreme I've got a cron job running a script that copies the datafiles ever 15 min 'cause that's about my average uptime with Access @ this point sigh ToyMan: you have specs somewhere on what you require? well, yeah. I uploaded my entire app to Derek some of the file structures have changed though i'll be able to upload them again by tonight 'cause I'm getting wireless DSL today :) [10:07] Last message repeated 1 time(s). when the wireless gets set, i'll be back to you guys to get a username a passwrd for scp to your server ok dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~rm@N809P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo: toyman is looking for you Action: dneighbo runs and hides ToyMan actually i have my new duron 1.2ghz up and running :) Vooch (Vooch@adsl-63-164-74.bna.bellsouth.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" Arturas (~root@gsk.vtu.lt) joined #gnuenterprise. Hello hey do you have some time? drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Arturas (~root@gsk.vtu.lt) left #gnuenterprise. Arturas (~raven@gsk.vtu.lt) joined #gnuenterprise. dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) got netsplit. dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) returned to #gnuenterprise. reinhard (rm@N809P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) MicahY (~root@mailgate.alliance.k12.ec) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (~danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. WINDOWS RULEZ!!!!!! that doesn't even merit a response that wasn't confrontational was it? :) Action: jcater throws chillywilly a trout and yet you just did ;P Action: chillywilly trout slaps drochaid into next week Action: drochaid wonders if the troutslap will arive by DHL or UPS it will arrive via to mama er, yo lol chillywilly (danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: "[BX] Reserve your copy of BitchX-1.0c18 for the Apple Newton today!" chillywilly (~danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: chillywilly goes off to do some work chillywilly (danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Client Quit bye Arturas (~raven@gsk.vtu.lt) left #gnuenterprise. td-work (~td-work@birddog225.birddog.com) joined #gnuenterprise. general question: (opinion) how is gnuenterprise rate for an accounting package? Looking to replace Business Works.... short answer: we're not there yet :( what is business works if its a 'framework' we might be close Action: drochaid toddles off for pizza if its a peach tree shrink wrap we arent there yet Action: dneighbo slaps drochaid its like quicken but 'more robust' no pizza for you (unless you dcc me a slice) td-work then we arent there yet dneighbo: cool, thank you! drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) i.e. you cant download a done accounting package today know of any projects which would be? you coudl build a custom one though drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. possibly sql*ledger or gnucash thank you dneighbo well the press release is now on gnu.org :) yeah yeah yeah it has been sent to linuxtoday, newsforge and slashdot are there any other places we choose to submit it? microsofttoday.com rofl bbiab jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise. i wonder if that is a real site... damn its not ok at linuxpr now too dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo: excellent news about your mb I've got the antenna up just have to do the geeky part and I'll be broadband.. dneighbo: what about osdn... jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "rebooting" ToyMan way cool newsforge and slashdot are both osdn i think linuxjournal and itoolbox done as well must eat now, hopefully a few of them pick it up wow newsforge already did jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (~danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection Action: chillywilly smacks drochaid with a crappie sup my peeps jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. wassup nick-a? chillywilly (danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: "[BX] Tickle-Me Elmo uses BitchX. *giggle* *giggle* *giggle*" psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. crazymike (~danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. waz up ya'll nick-a's??? dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection crazymike (danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Client Quit jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. New Kernel Cousins are out article gone to website & mailing list get 'em while they're hot ;-) http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020223_17.html http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020302_18.html If you're really twisted, replace html with txt for a text version if you're really, really, twisted, replace html with xml to see the XML source hey, this is GPL, after all ;-) bbl psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: "[x]chat" Action: drochaid returns after pizza /dcc dneighbo pizza ooh new GnuE ooh, TWO new GnuE! no links to the MacOS X screen shots? :( zwiskle (~zwiskle@194-208-138-086.TELE.NET) joined #gnuenterprise. hi great news on the dcl & gnue merge Action: drochaid is away: oot Mr_You thanks i need to announce on our announce list too I see some new nicks in regards to the GEAS rewrite, I guess there still isn't a python app server already in development that we may consider? I guess not, atleast not one that had multiple connection methods if you find one let us know so we can consider it zope is probably closest so far there are others but they are so infantile in development still not sure it makes sense i have a comment on the GEAS rewrite.. nothing mentions authentication there is something on security Action: Mr_You considers those two seperate ;-) you noticed any progress or such in regards to the webclient? madlocke still doing that or no? um havent heard from madlocke in a bit jan was doing a php forms client and it seemed to be going well though he hasnt been around either ok what was the acronym for RADB? is that it? for the authentication scuse me for the security tip of my tongue RBA Role Base Access Control thats it Action: Mr_You is typing up a reply. RBAC Really Big Anal Cavity i think or something eww heh hmm.. I see a need for GEAS API/triggers for external scripts. haha chillywilly (~danielb@d118.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dtm (dtm@ip66.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) joined #gnuenterprise. sup dtm? hi chilly ello Mr_You Action: drochaid is back (gone 00:46:32) zwiskle (zwiskle@194-208-138-086.TELE.NET) left irc: Remote closed the connection td-work (td-work@birddog225.birddog.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) td-work (~td-work@birddog225.birddog.com) joined #gnuenterprise. i had a flame war recently on a list question, what do you all feel is a fair consulting price i.e. NOT what you COULD charge, but what is a fair price what type of consultation and to what market sector/size? td-work (td-work@birddog225.birddog.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) and no, I don't have any pizza left ;) td-work (~td-work@birddog225.birddog.com) joined #gnuenterprise. drochaid honestly it shouldnt matter about sector/business size IMHO type of consultation i agree maters er matters say general IT consultancy I think it does matter about size mixed bag of networking, programming, project management drochaid why would size of company matter i.e. i think it somewhat morally wrong to charge a bigger client more than a smaller client I'm aiming my consulting primarily at small businesses with very limited capital in the main part experience, skills, and requirements made by the "problem" determine the price, IMO I have dropped my hourly cost substantially to allow them to be able to afford a service I believe they have a right to use, but normally can't afford i think 'the problem' and expertise needed to solve it should factor most of the price variable drochaid : yes im for that well I would charge more for prop./internal GPL solutions ;) for example, I have experience/skills in multiple *nix and Cisco.. but if someone pays me to install a RAID, I can't charge a higher hourly rate because I know Cisco. chillywilly you are evil i wouldnt do prop systems :) so I don't charge *more* to a larger business, but I don't exclude those that couldn't normally afford me well, I didn;t imply that I would do it drochaid, understood :) charging different prices depending on the size of the org doesn't make much sense always but in general people will do prop. solutions i am against saying 'how big are you so i can overcharge you' :) im not against saying here is what it would cost, but i know you cant afford that lets see what we can do for what your talking about dneighbo, I would say upto Ł125 an hour would be very acceptable depending on experiance and skill well.. *you're it deodns if you like the customer ;) you could say "anything the gets the best deal" or "gets the deal period".. so scaling your pricing in that regard is good I guess :P if you price each org differently then I don't see anything wrong with it.. all your doing is shooting to make the deal happen and still be beneficial its the larger orgs own fault for not trying to get a lower price you need to make your money and stay afloat...come people will not be able to afford you...if you can afford to cut them a deal then I'd say do it Action: drochaid thinks dneighbo fell asleep dneighbo: most importantly let your conscious be your guide...if you are seriously ripping people off I am sure you will feel a bit guilty (assuming you;re a decent human being...yea big assumption I know) you could also look at "what may be a rip off price" .. is what people are still willing to pay.. so maybe its not a rip off? ;-) hmmm ouch 125 pounds seems extremely high i think i would have issues charging more than 80 US $ depending on things having to 'overhead' maybe 100 US $ for what exactly? any kind of IT consulting I disagree completely. $100 US is pretty low tbh im hearing people say over 100 an hour and that just seems like gouging to me the justification i keep getting back $90-$100 is probably the average is that well you dont always have work IBM charged me out @ Ł850 GBP a day wtf should a company pay you for not working :) and that was really basic stuff is my opinion :) I've talked to Cisco Engineers that barely new anything and they charged $125/hour or such drochaid i dont think ibm pricing is non gouging sigh i think consultants have m$ syndrome I can't charge a flat rate, I charge based on what needs done and skills required for the job the 'because you can' and 'look what others charge' is the common theme :( i guess im too much of a socialist and what it takes to get the deal or best deal Mr_You i dont think flat rate im saying over 100 seems like gouging to me derek: you can't pay a senior level network engineer the same as a jr. admin its not gouging when you consider the profit required.. i looked at several surveys and the averages on the high end ar 85 bucks and low end 17 (tech support) which seems to support my argument we can agree to disagree thats hourly rate for individuals i guess im the one out in the dark here what you charge as a company and what you pay an individual are two different things 60,000 is 28/hr flat rath er rate dneighbo: look at it from a business viewpoint. As a consultant, you are there for one purpose and one purpose only. To save the company money by making recommendations based on knowledge they do not posess. If the fee you charge reflects the level of saving they will make if carried out correctly, then it is a fair cost to them as long as they know upfront and agree to it. say you figure you have 4 times in overhead cost (extremely high) that is 112 an hour so you figure.. if someone is paying their employee $85/hour.. they are charging the client probably $150/hour or more right.. now add another $25/hour for profit if they're paying $85 an hour they SHOULD be charging 3 times that Mr_You im sorry as an independent consultant if i can make 60k ok drochaid and have 2 week vacation and health insurance etc that is more than enough I agree.. but in the details lies the overhead of the rest of the company.. sales, execs, etc. break it down as, 1x for salary, 1x for immediate expenses to maintain the consultanct, and the rest as a mix of profit and general indirect running costs Mr_You i guess i think that is the gouging part :) an independent person has less over, less cost i guess this only validates there is GREAT room for this market :) i.e. building a COMPANY that conosidates independents world wide company needs to make a profit to grow while maintaining next to zero overhead :) dneighbo: that's called IBM dood :) which is POSSIBLE via internet drochaid ibm has HUGE overhead I know I contributed to it a great deal :D anyhow... the lowest over head will come from each employee having multiple hats/jobs within the company.. ie. the CEO also performs the lower level duties dneighbo: 60k !!!! usd!!!! is that all you want? brb $60k/year for me is fine too my dad owns his own company and I never knew how much he made until he applied for an apt I was gonna rent.. $80k/year.. I have no idea where he spends his money.. cept on cigarettes rather he's president and is one of the stock holders guess he only cares about saving for retirement 60,000 yeah is nice living thats usually what I aim for.. you said its $28/hour? usually I shoot for $30-$32/hour. well 28 hour is raw money for Senior Sun admin duties if you put in for insurance and paying employers portion of tax they get their moneys worth too 60k USD is rather low probably looking at closer to 40/hr to get that 28/hr in reality I don't follow ok, I know housing and general costs over there are lower than here, but still .... insurance is about $1k per year for me I guess.. drochaid: on 60k a year can support family of 5 nicely 2 new cars 2000sqft home (own) with pool etc etc yeah, but it leaves little room for growth or serious toys ;) yeah I'm very lucky as i said 'im a bit of a socialist' 2000sqft home with pool??!!!!!! drochaid: not if yer single ;-) sheese, told you your housing was cheaper if you are single making 60k that would be a pricey home around here probably you can do a lot better :) I was living in a very small 2 bed house worth 96K GBP like 4000 sqft home and mercedes :) td-work (td-work@birddog225.birddog.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection what can I get for $150,000 USD ?? per year I can't buy a home til I find stability.. not sure that really exist or housing what can you get for 150,000 housing drochaid: $100k California is about $60k here east coast, North Carolina 150,000 is about what i paid for 1890sqft + pool in arizona compared to the 2 bed house I had for that ... :o 4 bedroom, dining room, living room, family room and huge master bedroom, walkin closets etc ok, so $60k a year is a lot more for you than it is for me nothing extravagent for about 180k could have gotten a huge deal w/ no pool like 3500sqft 6 bedroom Action: chillywilly doesn't make shit and still lives at home now same hows in northern california ;P dneighbo: what you just described would set me back Ł250,000 [$350,000] where I am now or Ł600,000 [$900,000] where I had the 2 bed house would be like 450,000 i want some land and to build a home td-work (~td-work@birddog228.birddog.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Mr_You: I want a farm to build a house on and transform the rest of the land to a nature reserve :) jcater says he's going to buy a ranch ;) I'm currently charging small businesses Ł25 an hour, with a minimum 2hr charge ... my dad has 135 acres farm land.. I loved it there, still do. so guys was crazymike talking a lot of sht before? my real charge is Ł65 p/hour maybe build there some day, who knows Action: chillywilly will have to beat him with the smoke pole if he was I'll probably build in the mountains if I'm lucky then you can be the true jick that you want to be ;) er, hick just like cw uh, yea... Action: chillywilly thwaps nickr profusely Mr_You: I live in Scotland ... I'm looking for farmland on the west coast in Argyll ... gimmie some low flat ground and hillside in around 600 acres :D scottland is the "low lands" right? lol, no er, scotland how maybe it's the high lands then s/how// calling Scotland flat would be, somewhat inacurate I said 'low' not flat 2/3s of Scotland is CALLED the Highlands .. does that give it away? highlands pronounce more like heelan wasn't the dude form iin the movie highlander from scotland? s/form// his character was well anyway drochaid: that's what I meant of course, no need to get all super technical Action: chillywilly doesn't go around splitting hairs heh just slapping people with trout oh really? you don't? ;) wooo! Action: chillywilly wants to know just how accurate the movie Brave Heart is some people were saying that William Wallace was not the big hero he was made out to be in the movie not very the overall idea was close, but as usual there was a lot of holywood alterations the battles were far to small and short lived for one thing :) heheh well they have to fit it into a movie surely you can let them slide on that one? ;) nah, I'ma pedant ;) *sigh* the hung drawn and quartered scene was way off as well how so? first you were hung until nearly dead .. this could last 30 mins or more next you were drawn along the ground behind a horse to the place where you were disembowled I seem to recall they had Wallace in a yolk on the back of a cart drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. balls Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid again because of the limited time of a movie you can't have a 30min hanging heh you could .. it was long enough anyway ;) anyone want to buy some Munros? you;re nit picking of course Scotland's most famous mountain range. An area of international scenic, recreational and natural importance. Approximately 22,300 acres Accommodation: 11 Munros, renowned hill farm, 2 spate salmon & sea trout rivers, salmon netting rights on the Sound of Soay. A camp site for climbers and walkers. 14 miles of coastline. Acreage: 22300 Acres. all I want to know id if Wallace was really the character they prtryed him to be in that he lead a revolutioin for freedom yes and no because some were arguing he was not oooooo I wanna visit he was a thief and enemy of the crown but then, so was ANYONE named McGregor Action: jcater will be visiting Ireland next Spring a lot of it was tamed down for the film, such as the local lords right to the first tup cool jcater I hope to take some extra time off and trot over to Scotland hi hey dtm MicahY (root@mailgate.alliance.k12.ec) left irc: "Client Exiting" jcater: if you've got around Ł10mill lying around ... I can put you in touch with the agents for the above mountain range? ;) jcater: why the journey to ireland? 10 million peso's, or US Dollars? :) GBP not hardly :) about USD15M nah free software doesn't pay that well jamest_ (~jamest@fh-dialup-201072.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hmm sounds like we need to start the I'd paste some of the text, but I don't want to get attacked for flooding ;will code for land' movement ;) lol hi jamest_ hello jamest_ that was extended leave hello has ANYONE here climbed a Munro and looked out over the tops of all the other mountains and lochs around you? drochaid: 'enemy of the crown' is a joke, imho hey jamest_ chillywilly: it is a joke, but he was drochaid: and taking what is rightfully yours is not stealing either ;) chillywilly: but then, the crown rule of Scotland then was also a joke drochaid: even though I have no clue what a Munro is, I'm pretty sure I haven't climbed one ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-1-ip43.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly: it's stealing UNTIL you win .. before that you're a terrorist wasn't that a member of some latin pop group of the 80s jcater: a Scottish mountain with a summit over 3000ft jamest_: aren't you thinking of Menudo? jamest_: well I certainly haven't climbed any of those :) lol menudo is also the name of a traditional mexican dish consisting of tripe/entrails/stomach/etc soup jamest_: err, at least to my knowledge i stay completely away from that shit and anyone who eats it dtm: I could've done without knowing that :) there are 284 Munros ... Shall I list them? :D i dont mean to sound too biased, and i certainly have full cultural respect. jcater: yeah well think of how i feel then! :( hehhe dtm: can I offer you some hagis? Action: dneighbo thinks that only way jcater is climbing a 3000ft elevation munro is if there be a darn big donut at the top :) lol drochaid: i dont know what that is so prolly no thanks ;)