[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s). whooo hoo going on to 17 darn lost on 17 13 got me you can continue though the crying penguin is funny i thought they only made classy movies and shit like the crying gane er, game Action: Yurik is back (gone 00:24:35) odd i lost but it kept me on 17 yea like i said, you can continue this game is more incideous gah because you never 'loose' its all about how fast you go through the levels Action: chillywilly lost too Action: chillywilly playing zsnes again cool im at 18 now its nice i like it alot wish you could screen shot(replay) really wicked shots i just threaded needle on one yea I love those plays 17 sure is tricky booya bingo 22 down ooooh, xchat 1.8.8 is in debian how do you see your score again i have 'lost' twice but it didnt display my score loose and choose not to continue.3 im on 24 now and getting tired ah oooh gnu cash 1.6.6 too er, gnucash we're too busy playing frozen bubble to care about money eh, shutup ;P I miss the xmms status plugin working me too I should try gst-play and gstreamer I wish I had the space to install gnome 2 on here crap 29 is hard 22 took me a couple tries beast (~eugene@194.84.60.130) joined #gnuenterprise. hello all ppl ello psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. psu: re chillywilly (danielb@d42.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: "brb" hi Yurik going to 31 31 too easy ok 33 sucks chillywilly (~danielb@d42.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. derek: I have opened all my suggested website fixes on DCL & assigned to myself just now need the wherewithall to fix 'em yes i finally beat 33! Action: derek does happy dance (btw, I love the way that the default assignment is to yourself on DCL ;-) Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: "reboot" yeah its based on REAL world :) you know, 'expect soemthing to get done, better do it yourself' 34 down heh 33 was a bitch not this year (too late), nor next year (busy implementing ERP), but the year after I might see if I can get work to use DCL for the Final Accounts Closedown helps bring home the point the Final Accounts is just another project albeit one we hope to repeat each year i cant get 35 34 oy reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.104) joined #gnuenterprise. ah! dang 2 balls away fromn 35 I had one letft to get on 35 didn't help that I had to pee like crazy whoa, too much information, there definitely needs a pause on a related theme, why is it the more I play Same-Gnome, the worse I get? is it like jazz, in that if you have to think about it Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. you're doing it wrong ;-/ yea, same gnome is tricky that way finally! hello, 36 no no nho I'm sorry, did you just call me a ho? Isomer (dahoose@210-86-58-201.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. Isomer (dahoose@210-86-58-201.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) left irc: Client Quit Isomer (dahoose@210-86-58-201.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise. 36! that was a stupid one yeah 36 here i come 37 is nice and easy though here comes 39 yea aw, a heart i just tore the heart out muyhahahaha haha at least its not a floating devil's head i cant beat 40 oy 40 kicks my ass i beat it 41 cake Action: Yurik is away: out, will be back in hour or so 42 toast beast (~eugene@194.84.60.130) left #gnuenterprise. man, I was so close 43 toasted psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) 44 death 40 still beats me 45 might be impossible death and destruction to 45 finally 42 46 down you sure there are only 50 yea after taht it generates random ones booyah 47 down 48 dead 49 bites it i need sleep i quit at 49 how sad haha you'rlr be back how long do you have to wait for a scroe? score even as it has sat at loser for a minute or so hit escape hmm odd scoring yea is it in feet and inches? and what is best higher 164'18" is my score at level 50 its time 164 minutes 160'56" on level 44 for me thats a lot of time to waste night night night chillywilly (danielb@d42.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: hmm are there any very-lightweight db's for unix? what do you mean, dbs? something you could use for instance in a mail program as an addressbook? well, db# all are basically single key indexes into a single relation afaik? I mean db# makes it easy to search by email address, but difficult to search by firstname, lastname or anything under windows, as I understand it, they have the "jet database" db# like db2? which is basically a library nickr: yeah yea Isomer: maybe sleepycat is what you are looking for sleepycat is just db#? perl can emulate sql using db# I think :) sleepycat is an embedded db reinhard: but it's single key access again isn't it? oh sorry didn't read your previous posts enough overlooked that however you could make helper relations yeah kinda ugly :) yes :) but then again, thats how mysql started out wasn't it? an sql interface into db#? not sure but maybe ISAM could help you i know ISAM from a prop software package but not sure if there is a free implementation oh hmm ! ISAM = The International Society for Aerosols in Medicine = hrm wrong ISAM Index Sequential Access Method iirc yeah Action: Isomer is still hunting down free implementations postgres appears to be based on one which must be free I've found several free (beer) versions Action: Isomer boggles there are SQL databases implemented in the korn shell that implements more SQL than mysql ! Pharsyde (~ianathomp@lsanca1-ar27-4-63-187-185.lsanca1.vz.dsl.gtei.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all Pharsyde (~ianathomp@lsanca1-ar27-4-63-187-185.lsanca1.vz.dsl.gtei.net) left #gnuenterprise. Action: Yurik is back (gone 02:49:34) SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.189) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@ics.elcom.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik_ (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Nick change: Yurik_ -> Yurik dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest_ (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (Alexey@195.151.214.33) left irc: "[x]chat" neilt (~neilt@66.95.5.110) joined #gnuenterprise. #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o neilt' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. neilt: hi hi neilt hello all good morning from washington DC say hi to george for me sigh Action: jamest_ is burried in html Action: Yurik is away: smoke Action: Yurik is back (gone 00:05:51) will do SachaS (sacha@203.190.196.189) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) llarens (~step@OL30-175.fibertel.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. hello Im begginer in gnue and need some gudelines anyone here? Usually there is. I can't help you (I'm just lurking). Action: dsmith pokes derek oh, well, I hope the mail list respond something useful so anyone here gets something from gnue? llarens (step@OL30-175.fibertel.com.ar) left irc: " http://www.looksharp.com.ar  " jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard tell remosi i think zcatalog (or whatever zope calls it) is a lightweight local sql db similar to jet or paradox or dbase also there there is one called killerdb (iirc from a tradeshow) though they are not free ok (if i meet him that is) I don't think that's an accurate summary of what zcatalog is zcatalog is a search engine abstraction jcater i thought zope had something that stored data locally that you could use standard SQL to retrieve ZODB maybe its called something else or Gadfly or TinyTable hmm i think gadfly is what i was thinking of man you should stop teasing chilly about his tinytable man jcater you approve a mail from someone today on gnue list? just did i went to approve it and it says none pending but i never got the email... I literally JUST did it ah i responded to that guy about master/detail we really need a new release :) Action: derek wonders if its worth effort to write a driver for localdb as just in 24hours two people have asked alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. and i think jamest was interested in such functionality for something he wanted as well it is worth the effort as I need it and one of my guys needs it I'd recomment MetaKit myself there's now a DB-SIG v2 driver for it as well! we use wxWindows + MetaKit in one of our programs we send out to school very fast and lightweight cool is metakit apt-getable? i need it if not is it 'free software' if so maybe we should bundle it as debian package I'm positive it's free software well I *think* it's X license it's not GPL but is a more liberal license http://www.equi4.com/metakit/ yeah X/MIT license fwiw the guy who did the Python bindings is the same guy who did the mcmillan stuff ^chewie (~chewie@host115.express.visi.com) joined #gnuenterprise. <^chewie> blee hi ^chewie <^chewie> how's it goin'? jcater thats cool Action: derek does fear gnue is leaning more towards an access replacement than an ERP replacement BUT that said dude most large companies use access :) nothing wrong w/being all only they dont have a REAL backend :) jcater that wasnt a knock An access replacemant isn't a bad idea, especially if it's scalable to enterprise proportions. dsmith i think we have that right now :) my point being i still think we have a 'bigger' market to hit but NOTHING that says we cant hit both :) in fact i think its a good goal as i see my coworkers using access for stuff they SHOULDNT but using a mainframe and DB2 is too tough for them and they just want to get their job done <^chewie> what do you think is the defining characteristics of an ERP that GNUe isn't meeting? Now, it's been a *loong* time since I used access (1.0). but the everything-in-one-file model has some advantages for local desktop users. currently nothing as nothing says an ERP has to have what im thinking just modern ones are there or moving there mostly our lack of application services is why i say we are more like access than an ERP BUT believe me that is not meant as a knock if everyone who was using access today started using gnue instead i htink we would all be VERY happy also i think gnue blows access out fo the water speak for yourself for scalability I have enough headaches now :) can some one answer that fellows mail about mandrake/redhat im not sure what he is saying <^chewie> hmm, haven't been reading emails lately Action: ^chewie finally has a reason to use GNUe <^chewie> I can actually get paid to work on it ;-) <^chewie> if I can retain this job for a while ohh i get it now <^chewie> we want to replace this awful Access-like Mac software <^chewie> so, I'm going to push GNUe as the platform for it <^chewie> for obvious reasons um gnue kicks ass now ^chewie like SERIOUS butt nice visual designer and all <^chewie> very cool i demoed for a LUG recently built a home video cataloging database in about 30 minutes all drag and drop <^chewie> sorry I haven't been active at all and they were FLOORED <^chewie> derek: seriously? <^chewie> derek: cool as jamest would say bbl derek (laurie@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "BitchX: sanitized for your protection" dneighbo (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. i need to get vt's working here BAD nickr: you still want to sell a video card? dneighbo: what's the issue? death ah well maybe tonight i can run by you the issue drink plenty of orange juice Yurik_ (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) Yurik_ (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Client Quit Arturas (~raven@gsk.vtu.lt) joined #gnuenterprise. Hello :) :) this is so kick butt i do a lot of work for prop software tool (at work) (er with not for) i recently wrote and article on how to overcome some of its defenicies and sat on a panel for something and flamed them :) but now twice i ahve gotten personal emails from other HUGE clients asking me for the 411 I'm sorry for bothering you but I'm hoping you can provide better help in understanding e-Contributor than what we are getting from the Adaytum people. The Adaytum people have demo-ed e-Contributor and e-Reporter to us twice. Each time they seem very coy and not straight-forward with answering some of our questions. Please, as a very experienced user of both e-Analyst and e-Contributor can you clarify some issues for me? for example its funny as i think my 'free software enthusia' is rubbing off as in the forums etc i generally say WHY DO YOU ACCEPT THIS? ToyMan (stuq@65.167.123.51) left irc: Remote closed the connection hard morning? Linux (~Xeyes@62.150.0.248) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@65.167.123.51) joined #gnuenterprise. will bbl time to run dneighbo (dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" jcater: just recieved your email => ok Linux (Xeyes@62.150.0.248) left irc: alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" yogurt2unge (~charlie@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.124) joined #gnuenterprise. btami (~btami@dialin108-isdn1.emitel.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. hi is jcater here? Hello yes, he is (at least his nick :) I see :) but dont hear :9 :) anyway, what about internationalization? I am for Hungary, and interested er, from mhm ok situation is such: every label and etc. in forms is prepared for easy takin-out translation and putting it back also time/date and etc settings are beeing 'considered (?)' 'one step before real modifications (?)' ... something like that :) local settings (maybe) what do you mean? time/date/currency stc. settings = regional settigs I think yes practically these has not yet been implemented (?) good is something in CVS about these? not yet :) :( want to help?? :) reports yes? something about layout tag proposal give up: know nothing about this i find an interesting project: datavision.sf.net this is a report designer (but in java) and has a good report.dtd very similar to GNUe report concept I wanted to ask jcater about that... maybe email him? but he should wake up :) I'v send one to gnue-dev but no reply :( reinhard ? when did you send? 2002.03.16 that was Saturday Sunday and now is still morning in US its 1pm EST where do you live arturas ? yes? oh Lithuania Is Kaunas there? yes :) WAU my brother was there and loved it you're not from Lithuania and know it's cities :) WONDERFUL!!!! :) he is a basketball trainer will he return? :) I dont know but I think he wants :) and you? would you like to come in LT? :) of course :9 :) then if you can, come some day SachaS_ (~sacha@203.190.196.91) joined #gnuenterprise. OK dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. at last dneighbo: hello dneighbo: hey hey dneighbo: becoming more popular and popular? :) hi all dneighbo: can I ask you on reports? yeah there is likely to be soem lag in my response, but shoot I'v find some interesting, please take a look at: datavision.sf.net dneighbo roolz! Action: nickr starts a fanclub droolz is more approriated it is a report designer (in java) going there now very similar concept to GNUe reports unfortunately if its java we cant use it but we can use concepts :) yesss if ith compiles with gjc and libgjava or whatever you could use it :) it has a good report.dtd an a pdf about it I think the "layout tags" maybe a good starting point nickr maybe you didnt understand.... if it uses java we DONT WANT IT. :) SachaS (sacha@203.190.196.124) left irc: No route to host i just walked through FAQ didnt find anything useful but cept negatives :) a. they use csv to import ot excel (this is poor mans way) b. they use docbook to do transformatoins (poor man way) c. they use jdbc only (which if anything like odbc god help them) ;) honestly im not opposed to poor mans way :) just making mental notes :) I am only talking about his layout tags in report.dtd groups, pages, etc. btami i think his tags are too infantile but maybe an ok starting point at this point i would like to go more 'simple' than complex so i can start on the xslt engine portion i.e. get enough 'basic' tags defined so that we can write the transformation style sheets and have worrking basic reports to attract more people to REVIEW the concept and give feedback Action: dneighbo has found out unfortunately until you build it they dont comment :) i i i will go out on a limb and say i think getting support in designer might not be to horrible either does someone know anything about gtkrc? I'm backed I've looked at datavision and am not too impressed it will serve basic needs well but doesn't seem scalable or very adaptable outside of it's limited scope I started back on the proposal today hope to have some notes send out on the mailing lists either tonight or sometime today as I have an immediate need at work :) jcater: you haven't reviewed my submission yet? Arturas: could you perhaps resent it using that cvs diff command? jcater: could you then wait a day and i will resend that and plus with diff command psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. i must go, by kc #120 is out btami (btami@dialin108-isdn1.emitel.hu) left irc: http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020316_20.html i will post to all the usual places ;-) psu: is there an extensive article about frozen bubble? have a good time :) bye Arturas (raven@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: "ircII/tkirc" oops, s/#120/20 haven't been at it quite that long just seems like it ;-) oh I thought I had missed a few months or something wouldn't be the first time. maybe I ought to do a spoof "Issue 520" or something sometime hehe wait for April hehe we need an April 1 edition announcing the completion of GEAS, Reports, Financials, and "chillywilly announced that, after the reverse takeover was completed, something to the effect of Oracle or MS switcing internally to GNUew the GNUe-Microsoft subsidiary would be GPL-ing all legacy s/w " Oracle would be a better inside joke "lellison announced he had just committed to cvs a bridal shower d/b he had developed for his own personal use, and wondered if anyone else would find it useful." "he said he had no need for license fee income any more now he had sold out to dneighbo" psu: are you subscribed to gnue-announce? I should be hmm Belgium gov't announces that they will standardize on GAES for their data infrastructure, and release free voting, social services and military planning management applications under the GPL everytime you post, it requires authorization not a problem jcater: as far as I know, gnue-announce is always an authorise list just an observation even for "known" people i.e. even derek@gnue.org needs auth ;-) given the absolute need to keep *-announce lists spam-free, I can see why <^chewie> /window hold_mode on <^chewie> doh ;-) ah psu: no problem... didn't know that :) but it makes sense well more importantly we dont want some clown announcing untrue things :) i think in mailman its called 'readonly' list did btami run away? you can still have authorized posters on a readonly list I think in mailman iirc ianalm nnthaneuna Addresses of members accepted for posting to this list without implicit approval requirement. (See "Restrict ... to list members" for whether or not this is in addition to allowing posting by list members i think this is what you are talking about i think i will add some and try it No no theres a thing like 'always accept messages from these addresses' is this wise? How easy is it to forge a "From:" address? or am I just being paranoid? hmmm i dont see that * If member_posting_only is 'no', then only the posters listed here will be able to post without admin approval. we have member_posting_only = no psu i think i will side with you probably better off to always have some verify I am probably the most active poster to gnue-announce anyway so if approval requirement doesn't grind my nads then I guess we don't have a problem ;-) ra3vat (ds@ics.elcom.ru) left irc: "Client Exiting" its too bad it doesn't support signed postings 'always accept posts signed with these keys' Action: psu has a PGP key somewhere that I haven't used in, like, 7 years nickr that woudl rock bet I can't even remember the pass phrase pgp pgp is old gpg! so is my key ;-) I really ought to see if I can remember the pass phrase and if not, formally revoke it I think you're not really psu as (in theory), the police could show on my doorstep I think you're mallory trying to screw psu over! and ask for the private key and I wouldn't be able to give it to them Action: nickr uses crytoanalysis names in daily conversation which is, IIRC, two years imprisonment psu: depends on the judge or wait, theres a law agaoinst not revealing that now? you can't incriminate yourself, 5th amendment. well thats US law heh at the end of days, when the sun burns out, will any of this matter? that's US criminal law not civil law btw :) well if giving them your key will incriminate you you still have the right not to give it the constitution always wins until they change it the constitution wins over time and time can be a century or more yes its quite unfortunate In the UK, they were definantly talking about a "must-disclose-on-warrent" law this was the "compromise" after the trusted third party model was rejected they should just get the NSA to crack these things for them in exchange for money or somethiyng i.e. everyone has to give their private keys to a TTP so the authorities can ask for it they should violate people's rightts on their own time. http://www.stallman.org/knock.html Interestingly enough, although I don;t have 5th amendment rights I may have something similar under European Convention on Human Rights yea I'd say most likely as this was the basis of the latest Guiness trial appeal not sure I want to be the test case, however In any case, the incorporation of the Euro Human Rights into British law has been done in a typically British way i.e. if it says in an Act "This act contravenes Euro Human Rights, we know it, we don't care" then you have no case This was a reserve power that was never meant to be used ...until it came to imprisoning asylum seekers w/o trial only the "dangerous" ones, natch. Action: psu gets most of his freedom politics off www.stallman.org ra3vat (ds@ics.elcom.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. sweet! 1. Everyone who has been the victim of arrest or detention in contravention of the provisions of this article shall have an enforceable right to compensation. unless those at the helm of the investigation are a. a media conglermate b. a member of the RIAA c. microsoft d. a megalith corporation hehe well the US doesn't respect the Euro rights thing oh i thought you were reading articles from US sorry was thinking skylarov and such this doesn't bode well: 1. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. er this is the first part of that article: 1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. "economic well-being of the country" == profits for corps yea bullshit articles 8 and 9 suck everything from 8 down sucks they all invalidate themselves http://www.hri.org/docs/ECHR50.html I guess you could still challenge situations that go against the 'spirit' of them, even if they provide for those situations. reinhard (rm@62.47.45.104) left irc: "Friends may come and go, but enemies accumulate" reinhard (~rm@N812P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (ds@ics.elcom.ru) left irc: "Client Exiting" dneighbo: it'd be nice if the US law did provide for reparations from unconistutional arrest nickr: I would guess the founding fathers would have hoped that the constitution was enough reinhard_ (~rm@62.47.45.104) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard_ (~rm@62.47.45.104) left #gnuenterprise. do any US govt officials other than the president have a formal duty to uphold the constitution? Yes i.e. do other officials take a similar oath of office thats all the supreme court is supposed to do they are the check for the congres and the pres making bad choices wrt the constitution in laws I think most federal level people's oaths involve upholding the constitution but our supreme coart isn't in the best shape court Action: psu used to study US constitution at college shooz to the extent that I came up with an argument vs Gramm-Rudman that I never saw elsewhere which is Gramm-Rudman? original balanced budget act ruled unconstitutional but not IMHO on correct grounds ah the supreme court ruled that allowing an executive officer to change budget to "rebalance" it was contrary to seperation of powers which IMHO is not explict in the constitution and some parts of the constitution (e.g. VP is president of the senate) actually contradict Much better argument vs balanced budget acts The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. IMHO is that Congress specifically has power the founding fathers were smart. too bad we don't actually pay attention to what tehy layed down. to raise money on the credit of the United STates Now, it doesn't have to *use* that power but it cannot deny that power to itself by ordinary legislation well it could deligate that power :) that's an interesting one - not sure that Congress can delegate powers i.e. where does it say that? hrm I don't think it explicitly gives them that power And yet the US is almost as addicted to govt regulations as UK yea =delegated legislation The number of bills I've seen that say "Her Majesty's Secretary of State may, by order, hrm, someone here asked about Revolution OS? lay regulations for..." Worst one was the Student Loans Bill, which was two clauses - the short title, and a general power to the Sec of State to make regulations for a Student Loans scheme with no context, limit or guidelines heh so they are moving the power from a general legeslative body into the hands of an individual? governments seem pretty prone to self-corruption Most "Orders in Council" can actually be discussed in parliament if an MP calls it in for debate but the sheer volume means they can't look at everything technically, you move a "Prayer" that the regulation be discussed (supply your own joke) uh "Giving power and money to governments is like giving whisky and car keys to teenage boys" P J O'Rourke, I believe ain't that the truth :) the problem is that governace is such a pain in the ass Don't get me wrong I am proud to be British (mostly), I probably have more "freedom" by any objective test than any other citizen in the world bar a few exceptions but that needs to be preserved indeed I think Amnesty International reckoned that New Zealand had the highest "freedom index" and they didn't even factor in the high number of Debian maintainers (highest per head in the world, so I'm told) ;-) well maybe they considered andrewm a slave ;) do sheep have rights? rofl haha I wonder how Switzerland rates nickr: not very highly, as I remember. Not having women voters in some cantons didn't score well hrm I think their system of governace is interesting though. dsmith (firewall-u@cherry7.comerica.com) left irc: "later.." I believe that the structure is simalr to that the US was supposed to be like before the Fed got the way it is. if I understand how it works. I know that when Swissair went under after 9/11 they needed each canton to agree the rescue package not sure how I feel about that hrm. Action: psu has never been that keen on "states rights" == "states opression," too often I don't understand what you mean. i.e. the 10th amendment is not actually very helpful for freedom afaik in swizerland women can vote in all cantons since somewhen around 1990 as it simply says rights/powers not in constitution are reserved to states or people but doesn't say which are reserved to states and which to people i would say swizerland can be rated very high on civil rights but not on freedom i.e. as long as you stick to letter of rest of the bill of rights you can have a not-very-free state govt that is perfectly legit um shawn gordon appears to be an ass to me :) we have some not very free state gov't although they are mostly horsewhipped into homogeniety by the fe fed reinhard: my info on switz was obviously very old I like that, Horsewhipped into Homogeniety good band name or record name Action: psu is away: fetch.wife Jo Zen Infrared: Horsewhipped into Homogeniety psu: please don't quote me i'm not 100% sure the problem is that lots of sleezy, mean people are in governace positions. If I were elected supreme leader of the world, things would be much better me too it'd be free donuts for everyone krispie kreme would love me they'd be my equivalent of enron forget about national bird national anthem usher in a new state, where the national donut reigns supreme "One Donut, Under Jcater,...." mwahahaha jcater i think you carry that... indivisible bit a tad too seriously it would also be a criminal offense to mispell my last name!! much like it's a misdeamener to mispronounce Arkansas within that state president carter today announced, "Free Donuts for All" jcater you making fun of our kansas again? :) A donut in every hand Free beer for teens no no Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 00:24:45 -2000 From: Cheech ToyMan: Subject: GOT ROLLING PAPERS? Katmandu! 10114 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 00:24:45 -2000 From: Cheech ToyMan: Subject: GOT ROLLING PAPERS? Katmandu! 10114 ooops now that is funny spam mail header no heh spamassasssin woulda seen that dneighbo: someone is channeling spam through my address? nickr: that's a mouthful jcater: not as much of a mouthful as a handful of donut holes chocolate cake ones. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: "[x]chat" ToyMan no bitchx converted To: to Toyman: heh happens quite often, actually did you get those files I sent over? no didnt know to look :) they're in /home/toyman on the gnue box what up not much I guess ;-) or the other way around I guess since no one is speaking ;-) nickr what does this mean:: [SDL Init] X Error of failed request: BadRequest (invalid request code or no such operation) Major opcode of failed request: 145 (XFree86-VidModeExtension) Minor opcode of failed request: 16 (XF86VidModeGetGamma) Serial number of failed request: 18 Current serial number in output stream: 18 dneighbo@wright:~$ think of it as the X equiv of BSOD :) dneighbo: it means that the video mode extenision crashed I think. dneighbo: or isn't loaded as a module. hmmm in X? maybe my roommy got a brand new Titanium blah. wright:/etc/X11# dpkg --list |grep xserver ii xserver-common 4.1.0-14 files and utilities common to all X servers ii xserver-common 3.3.6-44 files and utilities common to XFree86 3.x X ii xserver-svga 3.3.6-44 X server for SVGA graphics cards ii xserver-vga16 3.3.6-44 X server for VGA graphics cards wright:/etc/X11# wonder why this machine only has 3.3.6 its running sid hah well its not automagic, just dump -svga and -vga16 and install -xfree86 the woody release notes tell you to od these things going to sid is more perilous well for now stuff works so i will stay with what i have for a bit :) until i have a day to play heh its not like a huge chore. -xfree86 is much easier to setup overall, if your videocard is supported I need something productive to do. perhaps something involving cyborgs. drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest_ (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "[x]chat" ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-2-ip92.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. yogurt2unge (charlie@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "Client Exiting" chillywilly (~danielb@d105.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. <^chewie> blah blah blah <^chewie> ;-) wassup my peeps what up baah wtf nickr: you gots a problem? chillywilly: nop thought so ;P bbs dneighbo (dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "BitchX: the cure for the common client" dres_ (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sigh xfree86 on debian needs help configuration wise i cant get to work with this machine either matrox mga 2064W (millennium) hardware real basic stuff and it bitches WOOOOOO Matrox Action: drochaid returns to his corner Action: Mr_You runs off to local cable access TV orientation. ;-) get your GNU video ready ;-) actually I just thought of that.. might be a good idea ok, maybe slightly off-topic for this chan ... anyone know of a GNU Music? GPLed music? I'm sure I heard of a project a while ago ... can't find it now that could be what I'm thinking of Mr_You ok.. I'm sure there are GPL-like graphics/clipart and sound effects... but compositions I doubt it. sigh i always get this dumb 'no screens found' but above it says screens found, none usable or something no, I know there was something ... I just can't remember where :/ irrating as all hell this is the only thing in debian that REALLY ticks me off dneighbo: I know sod all about deb ... what xfree86 version? I don't seem much point in redeveloping GPLed music.. as people already do that anyways ;-) musicians steal from others all the time so go for it ;-) just can't make it blatant, and there is a law Mr_You: big point .. current situation is illeagal and stores, radio stations etc need to pay a license to the PRS but the main point of GPL is for open development.. not royalty free. I'm interested in music that can not only be distributed completely freely .. but also loopholes those fuckers at the PRS so people don't need a license >:) and I'm a firm believer musicians should get paid for their wor k open development is royalty free and the ones that are happy to produce free music? there is a fine line it's no different to programmers, or artists, photographers or anything else lets continue this when I get back if they choose to do so, someone else shouldn't automatcially benefit as they do now there are reasons for free distribution and then there are reasons to begin to request payment.. otherwise no one would give out their music because they couldn't make a living at it.. same with computer skills aye, and look at the number of people that produce free code and look at the number who are employed for their skills bbl many of which are the same people exactly the two are NOT mutually exclusive they have a need to survive and a need to contribute same with musicians Action: Mr_You & so what's your point against GPL'ed music then? reinhard (rm@N812P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "The more often you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets" drochaid xserver-xfree86 from sid 10 minutes ago so 4.x.x kitchen (~grue@ip68-2-137-57.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: dneighbo -> bathroom Nick change: bathroom -> derek hi kitchen you from phoenix? yes was at your presentation, thought I'd swing in cool well if you have questions feel free to ask when's the first front end app due? Action: kitchen ducks :-) well thats a variant as there are several front end apps in production :) just custom solutions :) for the gnumasses we dont have a schedule for that zackly why I asked :-) mainly because being all volunteers its not fair to users or us to put a date on things i would say depends on the application i have been plowing through some DCL stuff getting GNUe screens for it I remember your point in the presentation, I was just baiting you :-) and more than likely the basics for contact manager exist with in that kitchen have you installed gnue yet? nope soon though, I believe what distro? if its debian we can probably install you in 30 minutes or less i.e. install while you wait rh on local box; soon to be installed debian on my triboot redhat probably more like an hour install depending on how adept you are with it and you internet connection speed etc :) rh slightly more cumbersome to get dependencies with I've done some damn funny things on and cox doesn't seem to hate me atm s/on/on rh/ rofl Action: kitchen crosses fingers i was considering ditching sprint to go to cox but am a bit nervous actually, IMHO, it's been better more often than not on redhat its pretty easy to install gnue if you install via the.. http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/ and there is one on installing cvs on redhat basically you have to install python2.x (on redhat disk) download pyxml, wxWindows the driver for your database and you are off to the races (assuming you have a db installed (mysql,postgres) have I mentioned what a wonderfull interface MS Access makes a great local interface for pgsql etc? >:) heheh Action: drochaid returns to the corner once more Action: chillywilly reads Shawn Gordon's BS onLT this is a nice talkback: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-03-18-007-26-OS-BZ-KE-0031 i love shawn, such a visionary uh? fa real? you better be yanking my chain Action: kitchen stakes chain in ground and runs is that preferable to yanking his own? Action: drochaid goes back to the corner and stays there neilt (neilt@66.95.5.110) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "later" chillywilly yah im serious shawn is the bomb, he is the guy behind kde right? er the company Action: kitchen koughs an no im not serious i already have started to form an essay to combat his complete FUD brb derek (dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "Killed by Cap (Requested by panasync)" it can't be complete FUD...you're not scared enough to run...instead you're going to counter :-) dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly what was the talkback you liked? this is a nice talkback: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-03-18-007-26-OS-BZ-KE-0031 gack i went up in color bit to 32 and its crystal clear but damn this like 800x600 MIGHT kill me you have to be blind to be able to use anything less that 1024x768 On at least a weekly basis we get someone telling us that we have to give them the source code because it is GPL. Some of them become verbally violent and abusive when I point out that the GPL provides for us to charge for the source code, we just have to make it available, and this we have done. is interesting as its my understanding that if you have a distribute the program you are required to make the source available example: i write a GPL application and I put it up on the net for SALE i dont have to give anyone the code but say fred jones buys the program he now owns it and i MUST make source available to him at a charge no more reasonable than getting it to him (say 5.00) if John Doe demands the source its my understanding i dont have to give it to him but if Fred gives him a copy of the program then i too am obliged to give him the source at a nominal cost wouldn't that be fred's responsiblity? so shawn seems to be 'playing with fire' here kitchen NO and there is much debate about this heh as techincally ANYONE that distributes the program is liable to give it source not just the distributor you got it from but the point is if shawn is saying the GPL doesnt say you have to put the code up for free download he is ABSOLUTELY correct if he says he can charge you for the code (he is correct) RMS also said that was true BUT if he is saying its gonna cost you 34.99 to get the source he is wrong :) but to just spead FUD about the GPL because some people are being jag offs is very lame i think the clause states reasonable to dissemeniate code which is cost to make a cd or tape etc and mail it i think his point was that he doesnt have to put for free download which is correct while i think it goes against the SPIRIT of the GPL it certainly is legally within the bounds so when RMS says its 'true' but states that Shawn isnt propogating 'free' software 'ideals' i agree :) theKompany doesn't impress me much they don't so many 'ideal' things anyway it is ambigiously worded in places that make it just too risky for a company like us. this is FUD if its worded badly and you are to flame it put in the proof why has Apple, M$ and Sun all bowed down to GPL (i.e. a license that is THIS popular and has been around nearly 20 years) and has never had to go to court says something eh, somtimes I just get sick of this happy horse shit I wouldn't have expected anything less from Mr. Gordon btw: relooking at GPL i might stand corrected looks like you have to offer source in similar media as the binary and it cant exceed binary cost to retrieve it yep people stated this several times in the talkbacks anyway, if you're going to release something as the GPL you should comply with it, imho....or just keep it to yourslef then there aren't very many good free music tools. brb Action: chillywilly is away: I'm busy nickr i agree Freebirth is extremely disappointing Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:14:54) you know what is silly http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-03-15-005-26-PR-EM-DV isn't thsi the company that omage works for? er, omega what is they attack the GPL and say basically its not good for business they always say that but what is hilarious is no one in FREE SOFTWARE (i.e. GPL) has said its good for the bottom line (if you are the producer) Action: chillywilly is no longer a 'dirty' hippy but they never state the criterion of 'good for business' its the fscking 'Open Source' camp and ESR that espoused this crap that tis a 'good way to make money' with his cathedral and bazaar crap I think its a pretty interesting article. so if you want to be 'mad' that 'open source' didnt make you money be mad at open source the truth is you are not going to be able to be a software house and 'sell' the software, you have to use it as a means to sell something else ;) if you are mad the GPL didnt make you money learn to READ the friggin GNU Manifesto doesnt talk about making money ANYWHERE in fact it suggests you STOP working as a prop programmer and instead flip burgers and write software on the side Action: chillywilly is away: dinne Action: chillywilly is away: dinner Action: nickr would rather eat burgers im confused from shawn: You are misunderstanding some critical points. We never tried to be a GPL company, I said we had 1 GPL program we sold, and frankly it sells great, it's our 2nd highest seller. I'm not attacking the GPL, I'm making a statement of how it doesn't work around some business models. so how if its 2nd highest seller that one can deduce the GPL is not good for selling their products? most interesting quiteso selling software is silly. Sell services, manuals, nice boxes i liked the comments that fit my opinion best :) 1. we dont care how the gpl affects your business' 'profits' 2. its a community, (like a gang) you mess with the community expect to hear about it qt played hard ball... i think they are dual licensed now indeed mozilla played hard they are dual licensed python played hard they are now GPL compatiable again MPl is pretty good for business it would seem and same with Sun (star office) and i HEAR I mean the style that php is going back to a gpl compatiable license jamest (jamest@fh-dialup-201072.flinthills.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection so i find it funny Star Office has always been a product thats in a box with a manual that sells for $200 nickr i think gpl is best but gpl compatiable is 100 percent necessary IMHO here is why if you look at sourceforge like 90% of all warez are GPL dneighbo: *openoffice* is gpl compatible so the minute you are not GPL compatiable dneighbo: star office is openoffice with sun logos on it and such you locked yourself out of playing with 90% of the market yes i agree just like netscape 6 vs mozilla im not addressing that specifically presactly like that saying this is why open office exists now :) and mozilla changed and python changed ture. etc etc etc heres to hoping Blender3d will change. ): as locking yourself out of 90% of the market is just a STUPID thing to do <^chewie> ok, time for home <^chewie> laterz ^chewie (chewie@host115.express.visi.com) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?" yea selling software in the current climate seems a bit daft to me well selling prop software licenses at least question doods would you consider a typo or error in a piece of code to be a bug before or only after compilation? dooodooo uh this is an ongoing [and surprisingly heated] argument on another chan .. just wanted someone elses opinion a typo in a program is a mistake until someone runs into it and it prevents them from using the software please don't start arguing over it here as well ;) so is the typo in the code a bug? or only once compiled? Action: drochaid looks for the 'diplomatic' flag set for the chen :) to me its not a bug until the 'user' or 'q & a' team hits it i.e. if im working on a piece of code i dont consider my work a bug until i give it to someone (q/a or user) and say i 'tested' it and should work thats what I said too nickr i suppose lots of folks just give raw code to q/a team let them compile ;) or is that 'compiles on my machine, ship it' well brb http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-861947.html is just too funny its not a bug if I make a typo, test compile it and encounter it it is a bug if it works as far as I test it (Eg, it compiles) but a user runs into it drochaid: I'm just advocating that there is a need for both GPLed type software/music and proprietary licensed software/music. haha crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly: were do I find that firewall file it were the case that programmers/musicians could make a viable living off of services only then there would not be a need. its all about recouping your cost/surviving.. that takes priority over any license thats just my opinion back dneighbo / nickr ... I'll just quietly disagree with you to save any hassle then ;) Mr_You that just means you are not enough of a socialist GNU software has no cost to recoup and programmers survive by commercial usually proprietary entiteies derek: which is a good thing ;-) drochaid: Its one of those annoying sujects that is completely pointless to argue about. Its all about the particular development process you're using. Mr_You: gimmie a mo to catch up with what you said ... then I'll argue [sorry, discuss in a calm and polite manner .. YOU WANKER!!! ;)] geeks spend far too much time arguing about fine points of language and not enough on actually oding things. arguing doesn't have to be disrespectful s/argue/bikcer bicker if you want to be pedantic and yet most of the goiks I argue with eventually come down to personal insults .. at which point I just leave lol nickr I'm not arguing over terminology ... yet furthermore, yiou all suck and your opinions are worthless crazymike (crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: hehe ok Mr_You .. first off " drochaid: I'm just advocating that there is a need for both GPLed type software/music and proprietary licensed software/music." I agree completely, at no point have I suggested otherwise damn, killed that argument possibility .. what else now ... donuts ;-) lol donuts are the spawn of satan! hold on, found something else you said " GNU software has no cost to recoup and programmers survive by commercial usually proprietary entiteies" COBBLERS!!!! people need to buy computers to write the software on .. much of the time this ia a machine they already own, sometimes it's purchased for the project it's virtually impossible to write and test drivers for hardware you don't have physicall access to .. I'm always seeing projects asking for kit donations because they can't afford to spend anymroe than they already have I just got back from the local cable access orientation.. I want to find a video about GPLed software that I could submit. mmm cobbler aww cummon .. argue with me :( nickr: *both* hands on the keyboard please drochaid: I disagree. If they can't afford to live like kings, they don't deserve to work on free software lol if we can't be elite technically, then dangnabbit we'll be elite somehow bum, I've got no come back on that one ;) hah hah! but seriously, for the music/cost of living point I don't think that music should be licensed like software a large number of my friends [and mother] are professional musicians some make an exceptional living some survive on very very little nick: heh music and art are artistic expressions, which should in themselves be immutable. THey can be *interpreted*, thats a whole different story you interpret britney spears? ;-) Mr_You: well, you could do like a redoing of one of her songs or something. maybe. heh. thats already done but that doesn't affect their will for people to hear their music .. they all produce both commercial and free music [free in the form of free gigs or busking etc] we should just get rid of copyright, and if we don't like what someone is doing with something we made, hire thugs with baseball bats copyright should work for individuals not corps thats the problem right on drochaid: you should paf for the *CD* not for the right to hear the work hey nickr i couldnt get xfree86 4.x to work on this box debian me and x 4.x just dont get along ;) anyways, if any o you can, try to ask around if anyone has created a public television "documentary" or promotional video as for the cost of production .. my closest friend records all his work on a protable DAT recorder ... so he now has no physical cost of production other than a dat tape and a couple of cdrs I'm dead sexy and serious too kept bitching no valid screens but above that said valid screens none that are usable nickr: I agree COMPLETELY that's why I dispise the PRS so greatly drochaid: he had to buy his equpiment to play and recor and want a large selection of gpl'ed music so I can tell them where to shove their required license you should pay for the box, manuals, support, not the right to use software. the issue is one of social natures i think Mr_You: I had to buy my computer example would be pre money societies yes, your commercial entity that gives you a job bought your computer that were communal and as I said .. he DOES make money commercially as well as free performances so and so may make food (baker) but he gets the grain for free Mr_You: uhm, I *am* my commercial entity just imagine, if we got rid of money, we might not have these problems.. AND I'M ALL FOR IT and the so on i.e. barter so to speak but not barter as in haggle drochaid: ok then, you sold something to pay for your equipment.. musicians same way but communal bartinger dneighbo: what you're talking about is communism, derek, and we tried communism, and communism didn't work. hehe im not saying DO this I love tat quote. Mr_You: you seem to be missing the point that I have no problem whatsoever with people making money from computing, music or whatever im saying i think this is the model that free software is modeled after sorrry, i just had to use the quote. barter model is good though could you please argue with what I'm saying? so when someone says 'but free software is hard to make money on' it tells me the 'model' is working as planned :) drochaid: restate your position for clarity for the argument please I have already 3 or 4 times but ... ok, well I'm not scrolling back.. so its over I guess guess its too hard to type a sentence :-P would i go to jail if i said i thought communism might really work :) maybe.. crazy freakin gov't I have no problem whatsoever with people making money from whatever they do as long as someone believes their work to be of a high enough quality to pay for it communism would really work in the proper circumstances i think no true communist society has really existed guess its too hard to type a sentence as russia etc was a facade are you seriously lagged? true communism couldnt have a 'dictator' it didn't work because everyone instituted statist communism through their own cultural bias eg russia was just like prerevolution russia, ecept with the facade of the people being in power i think communism would work if put in model like 'survivor' drochaid: you just restated what you agree with.. I thought you were arguing something against... I'm confused now. exactly the same for china i.e. i think 70% of the people are in good nature and would do well in communism no, at NO POINT have I argued against that 30% are weenies and try to work the 'system' (regardless of the system) I think the best model in this modern age is a distributed communistic collective you keep asserting that I have, I keep pointing out I haven;t to work i think people would have to be willig to boot out the jackasses ok fine we agree.. don't see a problem that AS AN ENTITY interacts with the 'real' world and nickr as you put it i think we are seeing this NOW free software radicals yes .. I said I agreed with your main point entirely just after I returned arguments can't exist without disagreement ;-) are saying if you play well we accept you, if not we deem you jack ass and kick you out :) actulaly, yes, free softrware works like the distributed communal group I'm talking about so an arguement turned into a discussion and I got lost but only for software right Mr_You: from about 14mins ago ... ok Mr_You .. first off " drochaid: I'm just advocating that there is a need for both GPLed type software/music and proprietary licensed software/music." I agree completely, at no point have I suggested otherwise only for software though its spreading to all digital mediums yeah, I remember ;-)( heh i.e. video/dvd/divx er movies and video are having htis war or the start of it you don't need to convince me anything which we agree on.. I guess we didn't have an argument or disagreement the artists havent entered yet into the distributed communist model I simply want people who CHOOSE to provide gpl'ed music, art, photography, architectural drawings or ANYTHING to be able to but some of the unknowns are I'm gonna try some video editing on my roomies new Titanium anyone read Diamond Age? nope ahvent heard of it drochaid: why can't they? oy! you haven't?! I produce a lot of material I release free of charge .. most of which actually costs me a GREAT DEAL of money i guess my problem is when the focus is on the 'profit' thats great if you can survive first and as a result I rely on my business to make money so I can morals are at risk ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-2-ip92.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: "Client Exiting" becoming a non-profit fixes that no? ;-) society as a whole (modern) now has an eye towards 'profit' to me profit == surplus or you can just donate all your profits im not opposed to making a salary thats two easy answers to that but when the salary starts to get obnoxious Mr_You: because at the present time in the UK [and most of the world under various guises] any business whether a radio station, restraunt or even a car garage playing music has a legal requirement to pay a license fee to the PRS or whatever your local organisation is called its cause we are all money grubbing bastards Mr_You i agree to that human nature is flawed (we are born into sin) drochaid: that wouldn't be the case if "Entity A" didn't own the license to the music so artists that release music for free make nothing .. but artists that are PRS registered make money from people playing free music as a direct result of the license fee one reason i like GPL Mr_You: but that *is* the case is that it's communal, but in a way that doesnt abuse me drochaid: thats just red tape I guess yeah i.e. it keeps out those that arent willing to play under the rules of 'good neighbors' drochaid: in other words, it cost more to go through the red tape of not paying that one "Free" artist than to not go ahead and pay. and until there is an official forum and backup such as GPL for music [assuming there isn't, which is how this started ;)] it will continue to be the case drochaid: in that case, it would never be broadcasted... cause it wouldn't qualify for the broadcasting group Mr_You: no!!! even if you pay the artist directly .. you STILL need a PRS license!!! same with the napster incident.. so why do people use free software? there is no difference drochaid: yeah contracts are a bitch aren't they? my point being that the beauracracy to not pay the PRS would end up costing more than the $0.02 it cost to pay them except the pirates that run music licensing organisations you are still paying for bandwidth to download free software. $0.02 ??? are you kidding? don't take it literal a restraunt in Glasgow [where I am] can pay over £6000 a year for a license!!! you're missing my point if you dwell on the numbers. even if EVERYTHING they play has been personally donated free of charge by the artist no I'm not its philosophy vs reality that £6k then gets distributed to artists that were nevere played in your restraunt and the artist that allowed you to use the music for free gets nothing they are paying $6k for the right to have continuous music the artist who wants to play for free would need to go put in his own equipment, etc, etc.. because legally he couldn't use the equpiment there probably because its owned by PRS for example that can only change with a large collection of varied, free music with the backing of a dedicated group to challenge the PRS you're still arguing on a different thing to me www.downslam.com ... check that out.. local music attempt at what yer sayin.. sorta they are paying $6k for the right to have continuous music incorrect PRS charge you a license to cover the cost of you playing COPYRIGHTED music drochaid: obviously you are bringing up details which I have no idea about.. so don't moan to me about it drochaid: you are basicly paying them to play music you could always read what I type carefully and ask about anything you don't follow no you're not not really, I'm not too interested ;-) this is boring sorry.. artist a hands you cds they personally created at no charge so many problems in the world, I consider this way low on the totem pole you play in business premises PRS say "give us £6k" drochaid: so the contract with PRS says you must pay $6k to play ANY music in your premise? PRS give money to current chart toppers you never play YES!!!! and PRS doesn't own the equipment? how the hell is that legal? all I gots to say is, HERE IT AIN'T so if its broken there, I don't care. we got bigger problems becuase of current worldwide copyright laws and the monopolistic approach of recording companies where in the world are you? U.S. uhm .. it is it is what? I don't know if it's called the PRS over there or not but they do exactly the same thing believe me, you either pay for muzak music.. or you play your own CDs.. places do it ALL the time and don't pay anyone we have jukeboxes.. so if this is not the case, its new to me yeah, that doesn't mean it's legal tho jukeboxes require a license as well maybe the jukebox owner pays a fee.. but that would be the owner of the jukebox.. which isn't always the same as the owner of the place any form of music played on a commercial premises does in fact, I don't think most jukeboxes are licensed.. no, it's the owner of the place that's liable .. who actually pays is a matter between the owner of the place and the jukbox owner they are and who regulates the number of people that can listen to your purchase CD? as I said ... that doens't mean everyone pays no one when its not broadcasted that is seriously, thats not a problem here, so you understand my lack of concern they calculate the license base on estimated cd plays and no of customers through premises each year no, it really is a problem there just play live music, problem solved drochaid: haha o-k live performances also require a license they do? with who? again based on no of people etc PRS dude, I don't give a rats ass about PRS I don't live there. fix it yo self we have bigger problems here you have to understand, this is a body created by the music industry that regualtes payments by everyone from radio stations to home offices this is NOT a localised problem to the UK I understand.. but really.. its up to the musicians to make the change they are constantly getting more and more power and expanding their efforts to collect the license fees the musicians have no power at all wonder what happened with those recent law suits hell they do it's controlled by the recording companies they are suing.. check it out.. britney spears and a bunch of others that's a separate issue I couldn't tell you where, but there is a lawsuit going on and you have to be big to get to that stage there is no legal way currently for a musician to CHOOSE to perform for free, as even a free concert has to be licensed by the PRS ... it just means that someone else benefits from the money, someone who had nothing whatsoever to do with it dneighbo (dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "BitchX: it does a body good" ahh actually I think that was about recording contract lengths the britney action? it is up to the musicians, but the problem is they are money grubbing too lol that's a big generalisation stop thinking about the big stars well they shouldn't sign with record companies that support RRIA (sp?) and PRS or whatever RIAA there are millions of small musicians who really do care more about music than money then those ones should sign with respectable labels easy as that Mr_You: you still don't get it ... it doen't matter whether they do or not ... if they don't it just means that SOMEONE ELSE makes money from them playing easy as that ... lmdfao and hopefully this 15 year contract deal which the lawsuit is about will allow some people to move to other record labels, and maybe things will get broken up some my friend is not registered with the PRS "if they don't it"? he has 3 albums with his main group not very good and explaing yourself.. I don't understand that statement aboe.. so thats why I might "not get it" :-P if he performs, the venue holder still pays the PRS, who give the money to the person currently at the top of the charts [generalisation, but close] drochaid: those record labels which do not wish to associate with PRS/RIAA would not play on any radio stations or other venues which required payment to PRS/RIAA then TELL ME you don't understand it and I'll try to explain better for you I thought that was obvious wrong right radio stations pay the prs for play time it does not matter whether the artists they play are registered with the prs or not yeah, but a non-PRS artist wouldn't want to play his music on that station would he? yes it's coverage there is no option at the risk of his/her morals it is a legal requirement for the station to pay the prs see? ;-) there is no option sure, don't play the musikc you can't have it both ways right .. so a musician, isn't allowed to perform his music you either join'em or leave'em you can have it both ways they are allowed... just not without a fight but they're not allowed .. not with current legislation backing up the prs as it stands now, you have to do one or the other. nooooo there is no other the other is your music doesn't get played on a PRS supported station :-P the other is never performing or playing live or recorded music in public fact of life at the right to observe your ethics or a local venue or a cd well.. break the fucking law.. wtf? or anything mmm, the automatic large fine is a bit of a problem there that live performance stuff cracks me up as id the possibility of jail, or having your venue closed you guys have freedom problems more than we do ;-) oh god this is the same situation in the US artists could play on bootleg radio stations I guess no street musicians in the UK? and the vast majority of countries in the world nickr: exactly yes, street musicians in the UK and they pay a license? yep yikes officially as in the US they are SUPPOSED to well, we don't have that problem here just becuase they don't, doens't mean they aren't supposed to umm.. if you have a license, it may be a city service license.. not a license to some music industry here in the states its a biz license you're situation is almost exactly the same as ours nope I just explained it they don't enforce and street performer license here I think nickr is right, I think your equiv or the prs is the riaa there are independent venues here nickr: but they are working up to it there are independent labels and radio stations, too nick: yeah and I imagine its a biz license not a music industry license.. I've been playing guitar for years and have never heard of a music industry license to perform live music.. thats ridiculous nickr: and there are independant labels and venues in the UK as well ... all of which STILL have to pay the PRS drochaid: RIAA makes money from broadcast (radio/tv), blank tapes, blank CD-Rs probably, and lastly all the produced sales.. that is thats it Mr_You: yes, I agree it's ridiculous .. why do you think I'm so pissed off about them? so don't bitch at me, bitch to your reps, I do it here often Mr_You: no it's not .. check them out, IF that is the equiv of the prs, they simply don't advertise the license side produced sales meant CDs and Tapes drochaid: huhu? bitch to you? you started it!! yeah and I ended it saying I wasn't interested in your problems ;-) repeatedly I simply asked if anyone knew of any gpl based music groups yet you kept on arguing the same thing regardless of what I said anyway which turned into "let me explain why UK music scene is lame" ;-) no it is NOT uk law ehy can't you understand that very simple premise? I just explained how your PRS argument is not the same as RIAA this is international law that has minor variations in different countries indy labels, satations and venues here I believe are the ones that do not pay the RIAA thats what defines them as indy drochaid: but it doesn't effect me, so why do I care? fix the problems in your own country, we have to do the same nickr: no, indy means they're not attahced to a major record label Mr_You: then stop arguing with me? in terms of radio stations, I'm certain it means they don't pay the license fee. well you kept yelling that this effects the world and it doesn't.. so you might understand why I had to state this it does I have full knowledge that it does like I said, it doesn't effect me from going down the street and playing live music and like I said, watch it .. it may in a couple of years so keep your "full knowledge" ;-) they're starting to clamp down they're getting new legislation through they can lick my ass, I'm a rebel.. born with the name indicated via /whois ;-) reeeaaaaalllllly nickr: yah I believe most college/public radio stations do not pay a fee to RIAA and in turn they promote indy music an indy label may still be an RIAA member, but I bet its rare. Action: Mr_You is an official Rebel Rouzer. hahahaha strangely enough it fits too orgs like downslam.com which is local, and wondering if it will take off, they allow musicians to create their own licenses. while still providing a way for them to make money downslam.org is a label essentially.. hmmm.. wonder if there is decent video editing software GPLed chillywilly_ (~danielb@d126.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi cw bbl chillywilly (danielb@d105.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) jcater (~jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-24.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. derek (~derek@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. we didnt scare anyone off.... Action: jcater runs off scared jcater: what did we tell you bout looking in dim mirrors? jcater: we didnt get your take on shawn gordon and the denouncing of the GPL by 'the kompany' well, the renouncing was the use of GPL in code that you plan to profit from the sale of well, duh :) incidentally, if you read it closely, he was denouncing free licenses in general but was specifically picking on the GPL or naming the GPL but frankly I don't care now this is funny slashdot snippet: Action: jcater never had that high of regards for theKompany A programmer who use the GPL see it as a tool for distributing code that he wants to write. The programmer knows that no one will be able to do more with the software than he can. Since he doesn't care about commercial concepts like support and ease-of-use, the GPL allows him to do only what he wants to do with the code, and doesn't give him any incentive to do more. How many times have you emailed a developer of a GPL'd program for feature or help, and gotten a reply along the lines of, "You have the source code, you figure it out!"? end snippet: now this is funny to me becuase of the line about emailing a developer i ask that snippet looks like wasted space ;-) "How many times have I sat on hold for techsupport at 20k a year and been told, too bad that bug isnt going to get fixed" funny s/\S//g; # fixes wasted space :-) I got told that by oracle just last week dont know about you but I will take 'you have the source code, you figure it out' any day over the alternative :) er... \s nevermind i dont think i have ever had a maintainer tell me that when i brought up a REAL bug I agree derek. most of them are like 'thanks for taking time to report it' now adding features might be a different story :) besides if sourcecodeA is that useful.. someone will offer paid support ;-) i am like you jcater doesnt affect me much two things i took note of were a. his line about GPL being ambigous but not giving a single example... 20 years never taken to court when m$ is HOSTILE towards it says something b. his pointing out that gnome is currently more littered with politics than KDE i think (a) is just him being venomous and the only REAL damaging piece he wrote as its just spreading FUD but i think (b) is the one point he hit on the head let us not forget that Kompany != KDE just like Gnome != Ximian correct and to elaborate there's a greater divide between KDE and Kompany but thats my point, i think he has a point in that gnome comment as i think that than their is for Gnome and Ximian :) GNOME == XIMIAN is much closer than KDE == Kompany i agree 100% one thing I wonder tho.. if there is company like M$.. if they're lawyers say "we could fight and win this in court" if they used GPLed code.. would we ever know it? im curious about the other slashdot doozy where they are saying they will take email / net from employees i find this outrageous haha.. I love Collin Quin!! he's cracking on supposedly witty people who repeat "funny witty cliches" i mean to me, email is like the telephone "You're ruining peoples lives" i love the 'read email' on your own time argument... thats when i like to say, so you dont take calls from your wife/significant other at work right? EVER? oh you do.... well you should do that on your 'own time' btw: our organization has had on its agenda for a few months banning yahoo, hotmail and other email services because......(drumroll) virii spreading problems email/web/phone is all the same...if you're screwing around then you should get reprimanded it's really simple right and if your manager is a dork, well, maybe it's time to float the resume to find a non-dork boss screwing around and having a life are two different things ;-) but like all things for those not abusing it why should you restrict one and not the other also if you get an hour for lunch 2 15 minute breaks etc.... now why in the hell would it be antivirus makers that are promoting this idea Action: jcater is lost on this one im gonna go with the chillywilly_ theory cuz dey cocksmokers man anyone here try lycoris/redmond linux? Action: kitchen never did like black licorice i cant find the packaging system it uses if its debians i might grab a copy and call them for X support .cab I think its some hacked up rpm derek: what's your X prob? .cab? that was a Win32 joke me thinks redmund.... x (4.x.x) + debian + me == ass kicking can't help the debian side of it, but I've had my share of X fights which part of ass is kicking you? or there's that lug that might be helpful :-) the X server wont let me have vt's and its got lots of 'noise' over all X works and my funky mouse problem is gone sounds like ctrl-fn mappings aren't enabled but i still have 'issues' um no they are i mean if i do a new vt you have proof? :-) X CRASHES yes i have proof ok, just checking i can give you dumps of X when it crashs i.e. i can roll through vt's just fine until i start an X session and then you can't vt no more? even then i can go from X to vt but if i try to go back to that X session it hangs the machine kitchen: let me preface with this, i am the 'bugmaster' Action: kitchen worships your bugmasterness if there is some obscure nasty evil bug in something i will FIND it I thought that was my 7 year old :-) im talking software that has millions of users and never have a problem example in 2.2 kernel my machine would hang intermittenly no ONE could figure it out finally alan cox figured it out the CLOCK on the mother board which gave random numbers nice that it got figured out had a BUG hahahahaha so they had to put a check in tehre to check the value Action: Mr_You & i still get errorlogs that say the error but at least linux kernel doesnt hang just writes to log and resets clock :) jcater: go to lycoris site, it looks pretty nice to me and they use phpNuke grr why does redmond linux have to be rpm based Action: kitchen resists thowing gasoline on fire...barely can you alien the packages into debs? crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. are you packed with ram? can you start *two* X sessions and vt between them? without a crash? no i cant i can START two X sessions i just cant toggle between them :) this is my problem what's your vid card? i trained wife to use vt's Action: kitchen too so we dont have to log each other out on the 'family pc' and now when she tries it the computer hangs and so do i :) um video card Trident Cyberblade/i1 can you post your xserver log? lots of people using raw framebuffer but i wasnt successful in that how you want it? http? pre crash or post crash post should have pre in it no? yip let me generate you one :) Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly Action: chillywilly is back (gone 01:07:03) http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/xlog.txt surfing oh yeah other gripe is that i can only get this bitch down to 1024x768 but it advertises it does 1600x1200 sync rate I guess are you sure your horiz and vert frequency are right? what monitor is this? crazymike (crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: same monitor you have derek: no more hand holding for you HorizSync 31 - 81 VertRefresh 60-160 Action: chillywilly bites derek's hand jcater: i hadnt reset those (as i copied this config file from elsewhere) i changed it and restarted X still same problems ah they were pretty close though before hand i dont have Option "NoAccel" but if i try to add it X wont start at all I guess I should consider going to the debate between Ralph Nader and Former Coasta Rica Prez and Noble Prize Winner Oscar Arias debate Globalization. derek: when you say the machine "hangs" when switching between vt's do you mean it really hangs? no or the video doesn't reset video doesnt reset (though it tries like hell) basically the screen is all black when i come back but the top gnome panel and bottom one are kind of there looks like a bad acid trip hmm be careful and it never comes 'back' sorry was afk so i have to alt-ctl-bkspc to get control again if only one startx is running can you CtrlAltF1 and then go back to the X session? yes er sorry let me try with new machine at least x loads in under 5 seconds i can not Action: kitchen notes the xserver log posted doesn't say the vid card can go past 1280x1024 i go to f1 just fine but going back to f7 hangs though its a different hang it actually appear to flash a 'clean' image then goes black instantly where if i go to f2 then to f7 it is black then slowly goes into an acid trip :) then back to black can you set your DISPLAY in a vt and get good query before/after switchback? eg: xdpyinfo -DISPLAY :0.0 kitchen: i had to turn it down to to 1024x768 as it was having issues if i had set higher kitchen: you have lost me derek: res: ah, gotcha I'm curious if when it's "offscreen" if it's dead or whether it becomes dead when you vt back to it xdpyinfo -display :0.0 # sorry case important tell me exactly what you want and i will do it get good X go to vt1 X with me is never good (pun intended) type 'xdpyinfo -display :0.0' (unless it's --display) if i go to vt1 i wont be able to type as X log is there well, that sucks er vt2 dude was it doing this before framebuffering? huh? bingo http://www.xfree86.org/pipermail/newbie/2001-February/005516.html (II) Loading sub module "fb" ok kitchen: it says i cant open :0.0 refuesed by server im not authorized ot connect yeah go to a spawned shell in X...when you get back there :-) type xhost +127.0.0.1 er wait Action: kitchen starts kicking system hey change your DefaultDepth from 24 to 16 http://www.xfree86.org/pipermail/newbie/2001-February/005517.html gak...need to run to the kitchen perhaps? :) hah derek: I'll bounce in tomorrow and see kitchen (grue@ip68-2-137-57.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: "so long and thanks for all the fish" derek? hmmm turning it to 16... makes X not work at all really? dude chillywilly: has long been telling me to use framebuffer but i couldnt get it to work but now i see it takes a recompile i was adding the vga line in grub and using fbdev etc are you using a non-debian kernel image? hold on head in ass sigh i forgot i commented out all but 24 :) please don't call me "head in ass" ok with 16 x works but still same vt problem ok did you have this vt problem before switching to framebuffer? we are closer though we are? as it DID get rid of the 'noise' i.e. the quality of X is better but dang it i want 24 bit @ 1600x1200 ;) are you running at 1600x1200? what do you mean by 'switching' to framebuffer? no 1024x768 was what i was running well, I imagine your xfree86 file originally had Driver "trident" and you changed to "fbdev" right? dude do me a favor nope well i mean i did try fbdev at one point but it puked allover now its and post your lilo.conf and xf86config-4 files somewhere VendorNAme "Trident" or email them to me okd i have no lilo files im a grubby ah, shit well, send me that config file too :) http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/XF86Config-4 http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/menu.lst that is x config and grub conf file anything else? tequila? grr it makes my computer spark when i try to pour it in the usb port sigh and its too big for the floppy drive rofl doing a search on google and I actually found the Xfree86-4 file that you based yours off of :) complete w/the Presario 1600 monitor and the seemingly ludicrous comments :) Action: chillywilly smacks cr ok tip: dont eat a whole pizza by yourself, as good as it tastes the bloated feeling sucks Action: derek just doesnt know when to say when dang I think crazymike's connection went down and right int he middle of our game derek: I think you need to enable framebuffer in your grub file you need to append vga=788 to your kernel line *I Think chillywilly: correct me if I'm wrong :) yes you are correct sir that menu.lst format looks cool I may have to try out grub derek: you still with me? am now grub rules kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.4.17-k7 root=/dev/hda2 ro vga=788 in fact it is not at all picky about what kernel it boots for the record last time i tried this it jacked up system so bad i needed to use recovery disk to get it back and thats why i stopped :) what did you use? beats me a bat is what i SHOULD have used even booting the recovery kernels messed it up? no i was too dumb to do that you have 4 kernels defined there are these stock debian kernels? I take it they are from the descriptions jcater: that menu is automatically generated yip please look @ http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/menu.lst is that what you wanted me to change it too? if so now you want me to reboot? well looks right but I use lilo :) how do you install that menu? nickr ask nickr how to load a new kernel and you get that menu copy it into place an it is installed grub loads it each boot jcater: want me to reboot? um I think you don't remember what you added last time? same thing different value 7xx i dont recall what ok you can change that each boot without editing the menu file ok how? in the menu you hit e then go to the kernel line and hit e and it lets you edit it damn dudes so you can try all the values you want, just rebooting each time that sucked the nig one er, big ok that hung the box we were really far playing TMNT el toasto then bam rr.com went bye bye derek: can you be more specific? sigh um i choose that kernel from grub you need to move to Memphis or hook a netcam up it write like 3 lines of stuff then goes black drive spins for a while then just hanges hangs sigh let me jot down what it says before going black basically goes into initrd .... then bam black like 4 lines of text dtm (dtm@ip32.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) got netsplit. drive like spins and stops and starts and stops like its doing a boot up sequence just no monitor dtm (dtm@ip32.promontory.sfo.interquest.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. didnt that X one say that had to ahve custom kernel? dtm! any other ideas i think framebuffer IS the answer from what i have read on the net i just cant seem to get it to work derek: what fb driver does it use? huh? when it hangs on bootup all im doing is vga=788 so i dont know where its defining the fb thing hmm that recovery kernel is a nice little thing to have :) wvell yea Action: derek wonders if there is an X channel on here maybe #xfree86 well its as fruitless as #debian but in a better way i.e. just no one answers you debian you get no answer but lots of voices :) yea on #debian you get assmasters sayin 'your ride stanks' something like that isnt there a new kick ass debian help channel though? yea #debian-support it roolz! #debian droolz! um the guy in xfree86 right off bat says my x looks old and its whats in sid sounds like us :) you running forms from 2 weeks ago man thats old get cvs heh as soon as woody comes out you'll get 4.2 packages Brandon is concentrating on the woody release its dumb that the psone doesn't have a vcd player builtin hrm grr are there newer debs for X that are not in sid? deb http://people.debian.org/~branden/ woody/$(ARCH)/ is the X testing area jcater: i think to get that framebuffer deal to work have to compile kernel and i dont want to play that game there may be newisht things in there 4.1.15 or somethint think its worth trying that? as it shoudl be easy to undo right? ii xserver-xfree8 4.1.0-14pre15v the XFree86 X server it won't break its just testing I mean any more than its aready broken :) actually I think -15 is in there now. nah -14pre15v3 hah crazy version numbers should i try 4.2 if you wanna there might be debs somewhere lemme look http://people.debian.org/~branden/ hehe has the funniest image [16 February] XFree86 4.2.0 still in preparation. Sorry, folks. I need to continue to ask for patience on your part. I've had a major project going at work for the past few weeks, and my first hospital visit since my freshman year of college this past week. (And take my word for it, my freshman year was a while back. Now where did I put my dentures?) Hold tight and I'll have 4.2.0 ready when I can. like GNUe its ready when its ready ;-) poor guy is overworked, too yeah i like that one Action: Mr_You takes on no investors because of that too. ;-) Investors don't like to hear that haha they prefer arbitrary dates It'll be ready December 23, 2057 someone tried to force an arbitrary date on me once.. only once.. ;-) jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-24.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "nite" i guess short of building a new kernel or using X from cvs i probably am not gonna get vt's w/o getting a new video card I don't understand you don't have vts? how is that even possible? what video card/driver? from the description earlier.. it sounds like everything was working except the sync rate rates so you gotta match the video cards sync rates with the monitors. I guess you know this. when things look acid trippy, its sync rate I wish things looked acid trippy take a bunch of robotussin heh I'll pass tho. nickr: i have vts just if i leave X to another vt and return to the vt w/ X i have to 3 finger salut X if X is having a problem with the driver or kernel, it wouldn't startup at all I see thats no fun derek: thats definitely a compatibility issue does it lock up after X starts up? compatibility issue? it means the driver doesn't know how to restore the video thingies right even if you don't switch vts yah usually a lock up is driver problem. its works like it wants to work, but locks up or if your Windows XP, it automagicly reboots ;-) Mr_You: It works fine until he switches VTs well this is high-res 3D and the driver has been updated. thats weird I can say I've never had that problem. must be kernel I guess it doesnt 'lock up' its like it never resyncs i.e. if i dont go to a vt it works fine derek: whoa, you know what I have that problem too sort of hmm.. so the monitor isn't recognizing the switch I guess hi guys if I switch to a VT, and then switch back, most of the time the monitor doesn't come back just sits there with an orange light ("can't sync") derek: if you have res switching on, you could try cycling through while in X.. I forget the keys.. I have to switch back and forth rapidly before it comes back It happens from the screensaver too when it tutrns the video card oof hi dtm you guys have the same video card? no I have a SiS Shitcard 2000 he has a Cybershit 2000 k, guess that monitor has a weird sync chip or such :) it might be a bug in xfree or a motheboard thing we both have onboard video yeah who knows but I CAN get it to come back by fiddingl with it I'll place bets on motherboard or monitor. alexey (~Alexey@strel.techkran.vladimir.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. since I never switch from X anymore and I disabled the bios screensaver, it doesn't afect me and I don't care yeah I'd be the same way derek: sounds like your video card purchase didn't involve much research of the xf86 compatibility info ...? :) derek: that's a classic problem though dtm: onboard derek: so basically you're thinking that if you put your driver into the kernel and use fb, then it'll resync properly? SiS has had great linux support in the past. that's what thelinuxstore.com sold a lot of in their PIA derek: just stop switching and deal ;-) I hate SiS the quality is horrible and its slow ass shit mine is at least being that its onboard, I am very annoyed for I cannot watch DVDs or play Unreal Tournament derek: are you sure you need to use vt's? yay, we beat ninja turtles that game was fun derek: the worst i ever have, is that I ssh in from another host zsnes rocks derek: one of the two is always working ;) chillywilly: yay chillywilly: that rawkz.s? ok ok ok zsnes chillywilly: i beat that game in the arcade with enough quarter s crazymike and I were doing some netplay a. I SHOULDNT HAVE TO LOOK AT A COMPATIABLITY LIST chillywilly: oh wow derek: hey great strategy :) there is this one SiS card I have that is *so* blurry b. I would use FB but no one can tell me how successfully its like you need glasses. I don't understand hov they put out this stuff. derek: still whining about that shit? derek: i'll be somewhat amused at what could possibly be your rationale for a) c. i need vt's I don't buy the need for VTs. um if we want to compete we can NOT expect people to cross reference hardware lists but anyhow nickr: well if someone has a better idea derek: huh? who compete with what? my wife daughter me all use this same computer that;s not the programmer's problems though we all have own logins derek: log out. See, its what users are for. own mail own settings etc make those mutha fucin' hardware manufacturer's write soem 'Linux' drivers and we all get PISSED if someone logs the other out derek: well then _all_ you have to do is provide every xf86 programmer with their happy proprietary information, or make every vendor in the world contributing to each piece of video hardware, make the specs nonproprietary! get to it! as to log out means to shut down all applications or release their specs derek: Try the thing in gdm that lets you log on other people so like if im in middle of something and run to work then wife comes in and logs my ass out and i lose work im mad xnest? and vice versa derek: a workaround would be to use VNC but i suppose someone will whine that the second mouse pointer/dot is distractng. you try that dude derek: just a sec. derek: and another partial workaround would be to save your files or use xnest shut up guys dtm: you dont live in house with 3 kids under age of 8 gnome alread has this covered yeah xnest might work but VNC could be resumed from anywhere that is easier said than done Action: derek is in middle of work 'dad i need a drink' derek: under the gnome menu, under system there is New Login Action: derek gets up thinking i will be back in 10 seconds then baby has dirty diaper derek: try that then other kid needs something next thing i know its time to leave derek: yeah i hear ya :} derek: i'm sure they're rewarding in their own way ;) chillywilly (danielb@d126.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection nickr: where derek: seriously. what gnome menu derek: in the gnome menu, under system thhe foot if i click the foot not under debian and go to system i see only system monitor regular xterm gnome terminal xmlterm I'm sorry, programs/system/ derek: well i could sure help you out with using VNC :) chillywilly (~danielb@d126.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. thats where i am foot/programs/system uh derek: keep your wife logged in at the VT and you can log into Xvnc is it only available with gdm on yes derek: or xnest or whatever. do you have any other computers in the house, networked? ah that would be why how the fuck is thet new login supposed to work? all: you are missing the point :) chillywilly: Its really, really cool. i trained the wife to use alt-ctrl-f7 f8 and she liked it chillywilly: it spaws a new xserver with the gdm prompt so having to change this is a 'change control' issue more than a technical one derek: have gdm start three servers up nickr: that wont work then as i cant vt back and forth between them that was the ORIGINAL problem i thought gdm was broken but it was just X derek: have you tried switching between various X servers? yes derek: if you use VNC then your desktop is only another window which she can minimize or ignore. she can own the parent desktop. im not doing vnc have you tried switching back and forth quickly? :) nickr: after your hint yes like faster than humanly possible and no dice :( hrm the x guys helped a lot it goes back to text though fine, yes? and said they think its a bug gave me a name and email to sent to yip text is kosher baby so am sending it off will wait for answer for now im just being good about 'saving my work' derek: i used to share desktops on IRIX by simply starting up another virtual desktop for her, and running her Netscape under her own UID there. she only needed netscape. so we had unique bookmarks. worse comes to work i buy a pci video card dtm: too many issues mail, book marks, etc etc im not looking for a kludge work around :) im looking to fix the problem :) derek: if you weren't looking for a kludge workaround, you'd have a dual headed console. derek: everything else is a workaround. vnc's not a kludge at all. virtual desktops with separate UIDs is a kludge. :) xnest would be a more elegent solution have full screen X servers on various virtual desktops vnc is the most orthoganally objective solution, and dual headedness is the solution with the least thinking to the untrained mind nickr: vnc is the equivalent except with a stateless network transparent client nickr: s/network transparent/free crossplatform/ :) SachaS_ (sacha@203.190.196.91) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) vnc: just gives a bad 'feel' and im having pr problems removing windows from the house so i would rather not do damage control there :) many thanks for all the suggestions though we will see what the 'xperts' say at X booo miguel is a dork derek: I think you need a good horsewhipping http://www.linuxandmain.com/features/miguel.html nickr: i think first his wife. it made me think a little more of him as i do think he gets quoted out of context a bit who's funding ximian anyway, and why? :) and i now think that the prop exchange connector was not his doing does ximian have any income? they're being paid for red carpet update network membership, right? but rather the venture capitalist (i assumed this but this interview confirmed it) as he stated he didnt like it and then gave the VC answer as to justifying it its not a prop adaptor for evolution its a prop extension for exchange hey btw there's an IDE for developing with php and gtk, guy guys did y'all know that? i heard of it for php-gtk i forget the name of it but i saw it i use gnue between that and IBM's open source web platform, maybe that'll be a more convenient web target ximian licks balls yo yea, emacs I'm going to bed i thought xim was being payed by HP or something. chillywilly: l8r g'night freaks :P nite chillywilly Action: dtm displays a mouth full of food at chillywilly $()IO:#* ew you sick fuck h0h0 ok, nighty night chillywilly (danielb@d126.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: lol any sysadmins here? i am :) how can i automount a samba drive at startup? dres__ (~dres@4.18.171.42) joined #gnuenterprise. dres_ (dres@4.18.171.42) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) currently i run moutn -t smbfs -o username=foo,password=bar //carpine/data1 /mnt/smb any time it aint mounted but on my laptop which i power down and up a lot i would rather have it do it at startup yeah you can put that in /etc/fstab derek: put exactly the same thing in your fstab or do what nickr says he seems to know waht he's talking about except in the proper fstab order what happens if im not connected to carpine 'man fstab' derek: then you'll have to do it later. dont expect SMB to not be junk! :) will it prevent my machine from booting? derek: no, it'll prolly timeout ok derek: prolly delay it //carpine/data1 /mnt/smb smbfs username=foo,password=bar 0 0 It doesrn't time out, it goes into the background and waits until it can connect oh yeah. wonder if its better/easier to just create a little bash script derek: why? um cause for my laptop im not connected to carpine all the time so, what would the bash script be for? so i could do btw you can add the option 'user' so any user can initiate the mount request at any time mountcarpine derek: why both? i wouldnt do both derek: use the functionality they give you just the script no the fstab if i put in fstab can i test w/o rebooting? derek: yes yep derek: just do 'mount /mnt/smb' ok trying what is the 0 0 for on the fstabs 'man fstab' it tells all one of those regards in what priority that fs is fsck'd so that's why it's definately 0 no network fs is nonzero that is, all network fs's are zero in other words . yummy asldkj i hope you're not referring to SMB ;) it worked you all rock yeah SMB == Some Monster Bagels i once worked with an M$ apologist/advocate who said we should replace NFS with SMB even for purely non-windows transactions because it's faster and superior and NFS is legacy junk he said that about all things related to NT i believe this was in the day of NT 3.51, possibly 4.0 1996-1997 actually it was a guy jamest also worked with this was at ksu he was off his _ROCKER_ wicked smart guy knew everything about everything, more or less senior sysadmin Action: derek loves this channel but oh my goodness, demented. truly. derek: oh really? :) we lub chew two group hug *GH* eeeeh you can't replace thing swith smb because it doesn't properly support permission mapping in his "brain" i'm sure you could have one mount per user. and ... uh... then a separate one per group. i've had to justify this problem several times to extremely smart people the most recent was > 1yr ago to a fellow former kansan ;) a harrowing experience i didn't have the presence of mind at the moment to explain everything other than to reiterate that it was sick and wrong and couldn't possibly work right. i hear there is a coda client for windows though which is gewd. CODA (allegedly) RULES I don't belieeve it anything that requires me to specially format my drive can't be that good. nickr: what's this ? coda how could it do that? it's just a network fs no it isn't i haven't researched it for a good long time, > 1yr at least eh? well what else is it then? :) its a special super dooper network fs hrm yeah but in what way would one specially format one's drive? I don't know. for some reason last time I looked at the instructions it did but reading the howto now, I wonder why I'm using nfs really? oh yeah well when i last looked up coda, it'd been around for a long time and was stable for core use Ben Woodard at VA had used it in its sore spots and it still did ok that is, a randomly disconnecting client via a slow and unreliable interface (ppp modem) (laptop)( and he said it still worked although he was feeling the strain and he said it didn't scale really well maybe like 20 heavy clients this was in 1999 long time ago in your Earth years hmm I might migrate my home dir to coda it doesn't look that hard to setup you go ahead and do that, buddy i'll hafta check and see if they support macos10 its not as easy as nfs though yeah its nice that my UID is respected without me thinking about it hey, nickr. _I_ respect your UID. _I_ respect it, man. right here. heh. Action: dtm thumps his fist to his chest werd essay Action: derek respectz joo UID too Action: derek toddles off too bad moaning about a sick stomach from too much pizza SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.225) joined #gnuenterprise. derek: later, fewlio SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.225) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) mean people with their pizza wheres pizza when nickr wants pizza? NOT HERE :( nickr: I.... I have pizza, nickr. If you were here, I'd share it with you. thats very kind once unfrozen and properly prepared but MAKE NO MISTAKE. this is _gourmet_ frozen pizza. ooh fourmet er gourmet --- Tue Mar 19 2002