[00:00] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<nickr> I had a gourmet creation of my own invention
<nickr> its somewhere between a soup and a cassorole
<nickr> with tuna!
<nickr> but no cheese
<nickr> cheese is what I miss most of all.
<dtm> haha
<dtm> nickr: why do you find yourself lacking cheese?
<nickr> lack of refrigeration technology and this thing 'money' I've been hearing about.
<nickr> thankfully my tribe has invented fire
<dtm> no tienes el refrigeranto?
<nickr> I see your primative culture does not yet have the great discovery 'refridgeration', we would happily trade it for your technology 'perl skillz'
<dtm> hmmm
<dtm> is that what you tell the prospective alien constituent?
<dtm> er i mean, is that what they tell you?
<dtm> )(#
<nickr> heh
<nickr> no its a Civ reference.
<nickr> nickr wisemen discover 'python'
<dtm> heh!!
<dtm> yay
<dtm> yew da man
<nickr> heh
<nickr> gnue: I see that your primative culture has not yet developed 'GEAS'. We would gladly trade it for five pounds of beef jerky
<dtm> lol
<dtm> that's grand.
<dtm> nickr: so are you totally unemployed, bruH?
<nickr> I am virtually unemployed
<nickr> People still expect me to work though because I'e already been payed for it
<dtm> oh i see
<dtm> doing what?  may i ask?
<nickr> web developemnt
<nickr> well
<dtm> is the nature of your employment appropriate to repeat in public?
<dtm> ;)
<nickr> bullshit conversion of pages
<nickr> Yes
<nickr> www.scientifickarate.com
<dtm> what a name
<dtm> conversion from what to what?
<nickr> conversion from stupid macusers-who-think-they-know-about-page-layout crap into webpages
<nickr> you would not believe the crap these people shoved in my direction.
<nickr> Next time, I ask for a lot more money and a lot more time. :)
<nickr> ANd be more explicit about what they can give me that I can deal with.
<dtm> heheh
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> yessir
<dtm> good lukc
<nickr> well I only have one book sample left right now.
<nickr> and I discovered a nice thing to take care of the first 25 minutes of each page in about 1 second
<nickr> called 'tidy'
<dtm> huh.
<dtm> what's the input file format?
<nickr> 25 minutes is an exageration
<nickr> the first 3-5 minutes of each page
<nickr> they are horrible word produced HTML that was cut and paste from the quark files
<dtm> amazing
<dtm> i can only imagine
<dtm> then they're prolly like 1MB apiece huh?  ;>
<nickr> the worst part, though, is the images
<nickr> they all have screwey names, most are eps format, but there is zero consistantcy of resolution
<dtm> so it may as well have been sketched on a napkin as far as you're concerned, huh?
<nickr> some are print resolution, some are screen, some are tiny
<nickr> they included idealized printouts
<dtm> so you have no coherently importable page layout, image resolution, or any quality at all huh?
<nickr> Nope
<nickr> basically I'm working from nealy scratch
<nickr> page-layout wise
<dtm> so they used Word as a Quark-to-html export tool?
<dtm> or what
<nickr> and the layouts of each page are sort of random too
<nickr> no
<nickr> they just gave me the copy and the images and want me to do the rest
<nickr> so its a quark-word-nickr filter
<nickr> not very automatic
<nickr> when we talked about it I was thinking oh 1 or two pages per book
<nickr> but no
<nickr> there are four books for which I have content, each one has about 15 pages
<dtm> so shan't you complete them with haste?
<nickr> bah. :)
<nickr> yes, I should've
<dtm> well.
<nickr> but I've stretched it out a bit
<dtm> call it your personal work ethic
<dtm> protecting your reputation
<nickr> yea
<nickr> well I don't really have a good work ethic
<dtm> that's easy for me to say, i know
<nickr> this is what my fifth grade teacher said
<dtm> i have a good one but it's oftendisconnected from my actions
<dtm> i have an anger problem :>  which creates a motivation problem.
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> I have an inspiration problem
<dtm> kinda like chillywilly except without the material support network ;>
<dtm> oh really?
<nickr> I depend on hack mode to get things done
<dtm> uh huh
<nickr> which isn't real dependable
<dtm> mmhm
<dtm> describe 'hack mode' briefly
<nickr> its a trancelike state of highly effective action
<dtm> oh
<nickr> well not trancelike exactly
<dtm> yeah it's "in the zone"
<nickr> yea
<dtm> i see
<dtm> yet you have a problem initiating hack mode?
<dtm> or what
<nickr> THats my general problem yes
<dtm> well i could hurt, insult, and otherwise negative reinforce you!  if you like!
<nickr> hehe
<Mr_You> hey, does gtk have a wizard type installer?
<dtm> or i guess we could try that positive reinforcement stuff
<nickr> well, I can see you'd really like that, but no thanks.
<Mr_You> similar to the windows wizard installer we have?
<nickr> Mr_You: loki's installer?
<dtm> but that'd have a higher startup effort
<dtm> nickr: no i'm kdding. i dont do tha
<dtm> t
<Mr_You> nick: is there one that we plan to use or no?
<nickr> Mr_You: I don't think so.
<nickr> Mr_You: I'd think it'd be packaging-system-specific
<Mr_You> ok.. this recent article makes a good point..
<Mr_You> thats one thing that is holding back linux desktop
<Mr_You> packaging would be fine if you could "auto-execute after download"
<Mr_You> that would need to tie into the desktop
<Mr_You> and webbrowser or shell
<Mr_You> tnx
<nickr> ah
<nickr> yea
<nickr> or just add an apt source and use your favorite package chooser
<nickr> such as Synaptik
<nickr> nickr wisemen discover the secret of kawfee.
<Mr_You> well.. for widespread adoption.. the use will need to be able to download via a website
<Mr_You> user
<Mr_You> thats what they are used to.. I guess it will be up to the browsers and desktop enviros.
<nickr> it depends on what it is
<Mr_You> its all about the mime-types heh
<nickr> If for example the debian way is heavily integrated into an organization, then having an apt source, or the binaries in the archive as official packages would be the best
<nickr> In RPM or some sort of click and drool installation, then having it launcgh from a browser would be normal
<Mr_You> I'm talking about joe blow luser ;-)
<nickr> but it depends on which joe blow you are referring to
<Mr_You> yeah, its definitely good for either or
<Mr_You> I'm talking MS replacement
<nickr> yea
<nickr> in that case its point and drool
<nickr> drool resistant pixes
<nickr> pixels
<nickr> I wonder if vodka+icedteamix+coffee is a good combo
<Mr_You> man I so want to check out my roomies laptop but he was tired and seems the batteries are dead
<Mr_You> eeww
<Mr_You> I'll have plenty of time tho
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<nickr> hrm
<psu> hi nickr
<nickr> hey psu
<nickr> whats the good word?
<psu> dunno - just woken up
<psu> usual a.m. routine, get up, have breakfast, check TV, if the world hasn't blown up
<psu> then I have to go to w*** 
<psu> (apostrophied for nickr's benefit)
<nickr> I hate w***
<nickr> I find the word offensive
Action: psu cowers
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> I'm too happy to be offended
<nickr> even though I have stupid .. w-word to do
<psu> I'b better head off to w*** anyway
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Action: Mr_You &
<Isomer> rofl
<nickr> hee
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<Arturas> Hello
<nickr> hi
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<llarens> buenasss
<llarens> ups, good morning
<llarens> mr derek?
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<drochaid> /me is back
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<llarens> morning
<llarens> people, I still with installation problems (may be related with python)
<jamest> whats up?
<llarens> emm
<jamest> what is the problem you are having?
<llarens> setup.py say that not found...
<jamest> what is not found?
<llarens> /usr/lib/python2.1/config/Makefile
<jamest> ?
<llarens> ups, Im trying this from redhat 7.2
<jamest> and you have installed the python2 rpms from the redhat CD?
<llarens> apparently there is a problem with dependencies o versions
<llarens> python2 from cd2, yes
<jamest> hmmm
<jamest> and you are running setup.py for common?
<llarens> yes
<jamest> like this? python2 setup.py install
<llarens> this: /usr/bin/python2.1 setup.py install
<llarens> the question is that setup.py seek for /usr/lib/python2.x/config/Makefile
<llarens> file that I dont have
<jamest> hmmmm
<jamest> does redhat have a seperate rpm along the lines of python2.1-dev.rpm
Action: jamest is not a redhat user
<llarens> just a moment, I'll look for...
<llarens> YES! it is! python2-devel-2.1.1-2.i386.rpm
<llarens> im'listin the rpm...
<llarens> AND THE config dir IS THERE :)
<llarens> thank you veeeeery much jamest
<jamest> :)
<jamest> great!
<jamest> um
<jamest> are you installing from cvs or last release?
<llarens> yes
<llarens> cvs 3/18
<jamest> cool
<jamest> i was going to recommend it
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<llarens> perfect, i'll go to try, just a moment
Action: llarens is away: testing setup.py...
<jamest>  /msg me if you need more help as I don't keep xchat on my working window
Action: llarens is away: off
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<llarens> uf
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<jamest> ok
<jamest> wassup?
<jamest> llarens?
<llarens> uh, now gfdesigner ask for pyXML, but PyXML IS installed
<jamest> is the pyxml installed for the default python or the python2.1
<jamest> in debian they are seperate packages
<llarens> mmm
<llarens> may be for python 1.5
<jamest> btw - i know this is a bit of a pain as we adopted python 2.x thinking the distros would be supporting it by the time we were ready
<llarens> (i think :-/)
<llarens> interesting... does aaaanybody have so much problems like me?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> its our fault
<llarens> I must test other distro or download sources of everything?
<jamest> but python 1.5.2 was giving us headaches
<jamest> so we made the jump thinking redhat and others would move to 2.0 rather soon
<jamest> debian woody made the move but redhat didn't 
<jamest> so now we're causing suffering for our redhat users
<jamest> :(
<llarens> so the best step is to pass to debian?
<jamest> no
<jamest> i would never ask that of anyone
<jamest> we just have more dependencies that need manually delt with on redhat 
<jamest> i apologize for that
<llarens> ahh so is a common problem
<llarens> here we say "al que quiere celeste, que le cueste¨jje
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<llarens> ehhh... I dont know how to translate that
<jamest> :)
<llarens> something as "what costs, may be valuable" 
<llarens> emmm, I lost the path... where I am?
<llarens> so I must to configure PyXML for python2.1 ?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> it must be under the python2.1 lib section
<llarens> just copy dirs?
<jamest> um
<jamest> that might work but i think it'll generate lots of API changed warnings in your console
<llarens> ups
<jamest> in debian most of the packages are bundled for each version of python available
<jamest> so i had a python-xlm and a python2.1-xml
<jamest> maybe redhat did the same
<jamest> btw - i think we have a redhat 7.2 how-to somewhere on the site
<jamest> did you happen to look at that?
<llarens> so I must search for PyXML for python2.1
<llarens> no I did not 
<jamest> let me see if i can find it
<llarens> thanks
<jamest> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/redhat_install.html
<llarens> yes, I read, and says that 4suite must be uninstalled, I did it
<jamest> and it gives you location for pyxml source
<llarens> oh? let me see
<llarens> ups, seems that Im little anxious cause I dont see that :)
<jamest> To run the install scripts you need to have PyXML which you can get at http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/dependencies/python2.1/
<llarens> in process...
<llarens> (thanks God for clablemodem...)
<jamest> :)
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<llarens> ups I lost the path, having 2 o 3 dirs with gnue, Im going to erase all and start from scratch
<derek> llarens: for pyxml
<derek> they dont have 2.x version for redhat iirc
<derek> you have to download the source and compile it
<derek> as if you try the rpm for 2.x it will complain that 4suite is using the 1.5.2 version so wont let you 'move'  the other one out of the way
<derek> im sure a red hat expert coudl tell you how to make both work
<derek> but pyxml is an EASY install
<kitchen> derek: didja get the X fixed?
<derek> python2.1 setup.py install
<derek> kitchen: no i talked to X developers
<derek> they say i have found a bug (remember that special talent i was telling you about)
<kitchen> hahaha
<llarens> emmm, no problem, Im not interested in 4Suite
<derek> so i had to send have my files to a developer over there that does trident drivers
<derek> llarens: that is the other option is to remove 4suite
<kitchen> so...if I keep you away from my software/code, my job is secure :-)
<derek> the guy that did the doc for rh7.2 for us (kevin) did that :)
<llarens> yes I did, but now I have a lot of dirs with gnue moving from 1 to another
<llarens> is al total mess thissssssssss
<llarens> so much F8 mc's now :)
<derek> must go to work now
<derek> bbl
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<dneighbo> jcater: i sent your jcater port mapper to SAP-DB list
<dneighbo> as someone there was fighting ssh tunneling for SAP-DB
<jcater> huh?
<jcater> oh
<dneighbo> basically there were making a tunnel but nto redirecting the port
<dneighbo> rather than tell them to map the port (or whatever the term is)
<dneighbo> i just sent them make-ssh-tunnel :)
<dneighbo> btw: i was able to demo that at the LUG
<jcater> did it work for ya?
<dneighbo> using forms via ssh tunneling to a postgres server behind firewall on net
<dneighbo> yip
<dneighbo> worked like a champ
<kitchen> we were suitably impressed
<jcater> speaking of LUGs
<jcater> did you hear any more from the Nashville LUG?
<jcater> they never got in touch w/me
<jcater> but this is a good time of year to make the trip
<jcater> one of these days I'll have to check out the Memphis LUG
<dneighbo> i will have to re contact him
<dneighbo> as i want our LUG to DESPERATELY mimic their education model
<dneighbo> i need to put together courseware for Introduction to Python
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> Introduction to Postgres
<jcater> hey
<jcater> I think this month marks my one year anniversary w/GNUe
<jcater> :)
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<jcater> what a long, dreadful year
<jcater> :D
<dneighbo> hmmm and you survived in good spirits
<dneighbo> we really need to work on that
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<Arturas> Hello
<jamest> hi
<dneighbo> Arturas jamest and jcater both appear to be 'partially' here 
<dneighbo> now might be a good time to hit them up with your proposed changes to forms
<dneighbo> adn questions about where the problem lies
<dneighbo> about i18n
<Arturas> i'm here
<Arturas> mmmmmmmmmmmmmm............
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> also, im curious i noted in your email
<dneighbo> that you said you were looking at way to exchange data
<dneighbo> im curious as to what method you are planning to use
<dneighbo> so if i have a form that says
<dneighbo> 'Good Night'
<dneighbo> in native tongue do the translation/mapping to
<dneighbo> Labanaktis
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> Guten Nacht
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> Spokoinoi Nochi
<dneighbo> or
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> Bon Soir
<dneighbo> etc etc
<dneighbo> were you giong to use gettext?
<dneighbo> xml entities
<Arturas> yes
<Arturas> ok
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<Arturas> 1.
<Arturas> text in *.py fiels
<Arturas> files
<Arturas> (/common, /designer and etc)
<Arturas> these will have to be translated
<Arturas> with gettext
<Arturas> (not with gettext exactly, there is some other named tool with the same functions)
Action: dneighbo wonders if there is a free python implementation of gettext
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<Arturas> 2.
<Arturas> pygettext
<Arturas> (or something like that - don't remember know exactle)
<Arturas> (or something like that - don't remember know exactly)
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<Arturas> yurik: jumping? :)
<Arturas> 2.
<Arturas> strings in .gfd fiels
<Arturas> er, files
<Yurik> Arturas: :)
<Arturas> all national symbols there are supported by xml parser
<Arturas> (i mean, i changed parser the way to support them)
<Arturas> and the problem i )*&!&@$#!@#*@# on is:
<Arturas> these symbols are NOT displayed correctly
<Arturas> (form title: ARE displeyd, anywhere else: NO)
<Arturas> reading docs
<Arturas> help files and etc
<Arturas> asked in conf
<Arturas> (wxwindows)
<Arturas> noone replied
<Arturas> after forcing, some mentioned that my system may be not configured exactly
<Arturas> gtk takes font information
<Arturas> not from KDE
<Arturas> but from .gtkrc
<dneighbo> ah
<Arturas> so in the morning i had a little time
<Arturas> (didn't go to the lecture)
<dneighbo> let me try to reiterate things then
<Arturas> yes
<dneighbo> we need to make the tools support gettext and have someone make translations files
<Arturas> what is reiterate?
<dneighbo> restate or go over again
<Arturas> o
<Arturas> ok
<dneighbo> then our tools will be i18n compliant
<Arturas> wait
<dneighbo> with error messages and such
<Arturas> tools do support i18n
<dneighbo> ?
<Arturas> something with X11/gtk or something does not display i18n correctly
<dneighbo> so you did a patch for the pygettext stuff
<dneighbo> we just need to make the translation files
<Arturas> was going to send today with some more pathches
<Arturas> one moment...
<dneighbo> then on the forms/designer
<dneighbo> we support i18n in parser and such
<dneighbo> but are workign out issues with display
<Arturas> if in some .py file, responsible for form
<Arturas> i create some sstring='national syblos here'
<Arturas> i create some sstring='national symbols here'
<Arturas> and put:
<Arturas> print sstring [=> into console]
<Arturas> everething is printed ok
<Arturas> form.title=sstring
<Arturas> everething is ok
<Arturas> form.label.title=sstring
<dneighbo> ok so you have the pygettext working then in the tools
<Arturas> and this doen't work
<Arturas> tested with one file
<dneighbo> im just trying to get a grasp of the items out there
<dneighbo> as im new to i18n
<Arturas> it takes out strings marked for translation
<dneighbo> cool
<Arturas> puts into separate file
<dneighbo> WAY COOL
<Arturas> for human-translation
<dneighbo> ok so we need to figure out the display issue
<Arturas> yes
<dneighbo> and we are good to go
<Arturas> :|
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> then is the next task
<dneighbo> for i18n
<dneighbo> and that is for the applications
<dneighbo> i would like to see us have ONE form file
<dneighbo> that supports all languages
<dneighbo> instead of redoing the .gfd for every language
<Arturas> that is gfd?
<dneighbo> as i understand it the current work
<dneighbo> makes it so the tools support any language you write a translation for (in the file)
<dneighbo> and make it so you can author a form in any language
<dneighbo> but what would be nice 
<dneighbo> is in the form definition (gfd)
<dneighbo> to use entities or gettext or something to mimic the 'substituion' behavoir
<dneighbo> so if i have an contacts.gfd
<dneighbo> i then have a corresponding language files for it
<dneighbo> or something
<Arturas> mhm
<Arturas> pygettext works fine with .py
<dneighbo> other wise to make contacts.gfd i18n i have to copy the form and hand change all the labels etc
<dneighbo> maybe its best i wait for the patch
<dneighbo> as perhaps you have already addressed this and im just not asking correctly
<Arturas> no
<Arturas> don't know how to imagine that
<Arturas> now i've made to support languages
<Arturas> possibility to translate .py files
<dneighbo> just supporting the languages is a HUGE win
<dneighbo> and having our tools support the languages
<Arturas> but haven't thought how to translate .gfd
<dneighbo> we dont have applications ready to ship
<dneighbo> so the .gfd translation is secondary :)
<dneighbo> my gut is since we use xml to do it the xml way which i think is via entities
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> so in the .gfd you point to an entity file (which is the lanaguge file)
<Arturas> excellent
<dneighbo> and let the parser do the work of using the entity 
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> got the idea
<Arturas> fine
<Arturas> parser will need additional modifications
<Arturas> but that won't be a problem
<dneighbo> we could probably even put an entry in gnue.conf
<dneighbo> to set default language code
<dneighbo> 'en'
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> 'fr' etc
<Arturas> that would be googd
<Arturas> that would be good
<dneighbo> then if we do entities properly like gfdname-code.ent
<Arturas> because on different platforms
<Arturas> locales are 
<dneighbo> then we could AUTO select 
<Arturas> set-up diffferent
<dneighbo> so if i have default_language='lt'
<dneighbo> in gnue.conf
<Arturas> and even on linux there is a big nightmare
<dneighbo> if i fire up a form it tries toget gfdname-lt.ent 
<Arturas> to have language defiend in gnue.conf
<dneighbo> when making the form
<Arturas> would be easier for all files to get that info
<dneighbo> or somethign like that
<Arturas> yes
<dneighbo> hope im mamking sense
<dneighbo> and i wish jamest and jcater would pipe up with an opinion :)
<dneighbo> s/mamking/making
<Arturas> dneighbo: you're not only making sense, you're making excellent ideas :)
<Arturas> i thought to create a file, something like i18n.txt somewhere in /
<Arturas> or in /doc
<Arturas> with phylosophy and status of i18n
<dneighbo> would be good idea 
<Arturas> what has to be done/what way and etc.
<dneighbo> i will say i am VERY excited to hear we are merely a display problem away from having tools be i18n
<dneighbo> this is SO big for this project
<dneighbo> as the people that have the most interest in GNUe at this point are non English speaking countries
Action: Arturas doesn't want to sound sad (?), but guess that display problem will become the biggest headache
<Arturas> no one no where has no knowledge about i18n symbols in all wxwindows
<dneighbo> Arturas you think it might be a 'configuration' problem on your end
<Arturas> can't exclude that possibility
<Arturas> ~50%
<dneighbo> as if that is the case i wonder if yurik or ra3vat could test it on their configuration
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> we can try
<Arturas> i have .py file with i18n data on it
<dneighbo> ra3vat_ you here?
<Arturas> could email them
<Yurik> dneighbo: I have no GNUe installed
<Arturas> you have x11
<Arturas> python?
<dneighbo> Yurik well we need to fix that ;)
<Arturas> there is no need for GNUe
<Yurik> dneighbo: fix the fact that GNUe isn't installed? :)
<Arturas> :) :)
<Arturas> Yurik: can i send the file to you? All that it requires is X,python, and wxwindows
<Arturas> ~30 lines
<Arturas> dneighbo: there is 3rd side that i haven't noticed until yesterday
<Arturas> date, time and etc
<Yurik> Arturas: I have no X right now - in Windows now :((
<Arturas> Yurik: no problem :)
<ra3vat_> dneighbo: yes
<Arturas> in USA time is AM/PM, in Lithuania time is in 24:00
<Arturas> and etc.
<Arturas> but maybe leave it after i18n symbols support
<Yurik> Arturas: it's a problem, it's a big problem... you can send me file, but I'm not sure I will have spare time, since I spend all spare time to E/AS :-))))))
<Yurik> 24:00 here, too
<Arturas> Yurik: what is E/AS?
<dneighbo> ra3vat_ woudl you be willing to work with Arturas on i18n for gnue?
<dneighbo> he has come a LONG way
<ra3vat_> sure
<dneighbo> but is having some display issues
<Yurik> Arturas: Enteprise / Automation System
<dneighbo> we are wanting to rule out that its a bad configuration
<dneighbo> if you have X, wxWindows, wxPython
<dneighbo> he will send you a file
<dneighbo> and see if you can get it to work
<dneighbo> if you can we know its a config problem
<dneighbo> if you cant its probably a wxWindows problem :(
<ra3vat_> np
<Arturas> may i have your email?
<dneighbo> Arturas for now lets concentrate on text
<ra3vat_> ds@ics.elcom.ru
<Arturas> dneighbo: i'd imagine priorities something like that:
<dneighbo> in the tools lets just make time 24:00 no AMPM for now (if the tools display time at all)
<Arturas> 1. Finish preparing .py for translations. Trying to fix i18n in forms display.
<Arturas> 2. Prepare .gfd to i18n.
<Arturas> 3. National data (time, numbers, etc.)
<Arturas> ra3vat_: thanks :)
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<dneighbo> and then for forms time/numbers we will have to look at masks i think
<Arturas> Hello reinhard
<dneighbo> reinhard you can test this too :)
<dneighbo> Arturas you might have another victim :)
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> Arturas has started implementing real i18n into gnue tools
<dneighbo> wants to test a configuration 
<Arturas> or another man, who'll show that i'm an idiot :)
<dneighbo> as wxPython isnt playing nicely
<dneighbo> on display
<Arturas> dneighbo: priorities ok?
<dneighbo> yes perfect
<dneighbo> reinhard ......
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<Arturas> dneighbo: want a copy of letter? You can play with it too :)
<dneighbo> sure
<dneighbo> though i have no idea how to change localization stuff in linux so i will be of little help testing i suspect :)
<Arturas> mhm
<Arturas> i did sent a letter 
<Arturas> but it seems that of that joy
<Arturas> i forgot to attach the form itself :)
<Arturas> resent
<Arturas> you should recieve it in a minute or so
<Arturas> dneighbo: there should be no need for you to change anything in localization
<Arturas> gtk, wxwindows .... takes localization info not from linux
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> cool
<Arturas> ?
<dneighbo> cool=thats good
<Arturas> why?
<Arturas> what?
<dneighbo> or = interesting
<dneighbo> its an expression of excitement
<Arturas> you know something i don't know? :)  [why did you say it?]
<dneighbo> why? because english is a stupid language
<Arturas> no
<Arturas> why did you say 'cool'?
<Arturas> for what reason?
<dneighbo> its cool that i can use this w/o having to monkey with linux :)
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> no
<Arturas> that's bad
<dneighbo> well that depends
<Arturas> you don't know with what you ahve to monkey with :)
<Arturas> have
<dneighbo> bad because it teh wrong behavior (of course)
<dneighbo> good because i can play w/o having to change my linux environment (im lazy)
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> who isn't
<Arturas> ?
<Arturas> :)
<dneighbo> i dont know, but if we find a non lazy person here, they probably make for a bad programmer
<Arturas> non lazy AND bad..... no, these words don't go together well
<Arturas> if i'm bad and non lazy, i can work hard and become good
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<dneighbo> :)
<reinhard> sorry was reading a _completely_stupid_ thread at the fsfeurope list
<reinhard> with about 50 posts _today_
<reinhard> now i'm off to dinner
<reinhard> will read the logs later
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-dinner
<dneighbo> hmmm
<dneighbo> **************** NOTE TO PSU ****************
<dneighbo> Issue #19 Section #1 You mispelled James Thompson
<dneighbo> Issue #18 Section(s) #12 & 13 You mispelled James Thompson
<dneighbo> so if you look at kt users
<dneighbo> jamest is there 3 times 
<dneighbo> just an FYI
<dneighbo> *************************************
<Yurik> btw, GNUe guys,
<Arturas> yes?
<Yurik> I have a proposition of collaboration
<Yurik> Here at E/AS we plan to develop robust directory management
<Yurik> and will start doing it soon
<Yurik> if such kinda functionality is need in GNUe, we can try to share resources (and if our goals in this subject are equal, of course)
Nick change: rm-dinner -> reinhard
<reinhard> sigh
<reinhard> 117 KB logs
<Yurik> our primary goals are: make it run absolutely standalone and provide robust services
<reinhard> 75 new mails
<reinhard> bbl
<reinhard> :)
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<Yurik> if you're interested, we can speak ahead
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<Yurik> the technologies planned to be used: embedded FramerD
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<Yurik> the reason why LDAP is ignored: LDAP will make system administrator required to edit its configs; also (most important) - LDAP do not provides changelists, sync-backs and so on
<Yurik> for us it will be a supplementary application, used primarily for configuration issues and tracking things that are out of an object model - like system clients
<Yurik> so, if any interest, feel free to contact me.
<dneighbo> im not sure what you are talking about
<Arturas> jcater: can't get you csv diff - i'm using not cvs, but lincvs, and that things doesn;'t support cvs diff
<dneighbo> when you say 'directory managment'
<dneighbo> Arturas sure you can :)
<dneighbo> go to the file system
<dneighbo> do
<dneighbo> mv fileedited.py newfile.py
<Yurik> dneighbo: I mean facilities to store some portions of data in tree-like directory
<dneighbo> then recheckout that file via cvs
<dneighbo> then do
<dneighbo> diff filedited.py newfile.py 
<dneighbo> and look at results
<dneighbo> then do a 'man diff' to see how to make a patch file
<dneighbo> patch filedited.py newfile.py i18n.patch
<Yurik> will go home shortly
<dneighbo> i think is what you would do 
Action: Yurik will go home shortly
<dneighbo> why not use existing standards?
<Yurik> dneighbo: do you mean LDAP?
<dneighbo> i see gnue 'replicating' this information
<dneighbo> i.e. storing it in SQL
<jcater> Arturas: I can't do a diff
<jcater> that's why I need a diff from you :(
<jcater> as I don't have the same version of cvs as you do I'm sure
<jcater> hmm
<dneighbo> and replicating to LDAP or ActiveDirectory or NDS or such
<dneighbo> i.e. i dont thing gnue is interested in authoring directory services
<dneighbo> we have enough work :)
<Yurik> dneighbo: the reason is above - it should run standalone
<dneighbo> what should run standalone?
<Yurik> dneighbo: ok, no problem :) it was just a proposition
<Yurik> dneighbo: directory management service
<Arturas> jcater: 
<dneighbo> if you write directory services certainly we would be willing to 'replicate' to your directory as much as we are to LDAP or ActiveDirectory etc
<Arturas> doing diff right now
<Arturas> dneighbo: thank you :)
<Arturas> jcater: you need diff <my changes> <original cvs>
<Arturas> jcater: or
<Arturas> jcater: diff <original cvs> <my changes>?
<dneighbo> he needs
<jcater> um
<jcater> not sure :(
<jcater> I'd think the first one
<Arturas> ok :)
<dneighbo> patch original mychanges pathfile.patch
<dneighbo> iirc
<Arturas> as you wish :)
<jcater> um
<jcater> patch applies patches
<jcater> but doesn't create them
<jcater> iirc
<dneighbo> er sorry
<dneighbo> my bad
<dneighbo> correct then on the first one
<jcater> btw, I think we focus on one thing at a time
<jcater> firstly, adding gettext support to our internal py files
<jcater> :)
<Arturas> priority 1
<Arturas> got 10 minutes left
<dneighbo> i think we put things in priority in case you didnt read log jcater
<jcater> the internationalization of dates/times/etc are being worked on wrt the existing Input/Display Masks
<dneighbo> 1. is get py files up to i18n speed which seems to be done
<Arturas> not all fiels
<Arturas> files
<Arturas> currently in /common/src
<dneighbo> 2. getting .gfd files to ahve i18n compatiable -- having display issues
<dneighbo> 3. getting .gfds to do substituions 
<dneighbo> 4. getting date time / numbers sorted out
<dneighbo> Arturas good point, started and proven (not done) :)
<jcater> just out of curiosity
<jcater> how much is this going to kill performance?
<Arturas> ?
<Arturas> jcater: can you accept file on dcc?
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<jcater> Arturas: no
<jcater> I'm behind a firewall
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> ok, emailing then
<jcater> cool
<Arturas> sent
<Arturas> leaving now
<Arturas> have a good time :)
<Arturas> bye
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<yogurt2unge> Hello, I want to create the financial databases, how do I do? I exected parse_load_sql.py over all .geas files, but inside I didn't find the CREATE sentences
<yogurt2unge>  I run parse_load_sql.py over all .geas files
<yogurt2unge> my english is very bad
<dneighbo> yogurt2unge those files are for GEASv1
<dneighbo> which is being replaced by GEASv2
<dneighbo> so i would not use them as we havent decided if the format will stay the same
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<nickr> is anyone working on gaes2?
<dneighbo> actively its still in discussion phase
<reinhard> hello
<reinhard> any debian stud here?
<reinhard> :)
<nickr> reinhard: are you kidding?
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<nickr> reinhard: I'm *MR Debian Stud*
<chillywilly> no I am
<reinhard> lol
<reinhard> ok
<chillywilly> hey reinhard
<reinhard> i just installed debian for the first time in my life
<chillywilly> how's it going my man?
<reinhard> well it was quite easy
<nickr> chillywilly: life sucks and then you die, thats how its going
<chillywilly> well, duh
<reinhard> except for the fact that i got no network now
<chillywilly> nickr: didn;t ask you though did I?
<reinhard> 5
<nickr> reinhard: did you load the driver?
<chillywilly> reinhard: /join #debian-support
<chillywilly> ;)
<reinhard> would i have to do that in the installation process?
<chillywilly>  yes
<chillywilly> you can loaod the netwokr driver
<yogurt2unge> reinhard: dpkg-reconfigure netbase
<chillywilly> er, NIC driver
<chillywilly> or just insmod that thing
<chillywilly> (or modprobe)
<reinhard> just a sec
<nickr> reinhard: only if you were installing over the network would you load it hduring installation
<chillywilly> true
<chillywilly> dat
Action: chillywilly wonders where crazymike is so we can play ninja turtles
<reinhard> i am installing over network i guess
<reinhard> i only have one ce
<reinhard> cd
<reinhard> with the basic system
<reinhard> let me try that
<reinhard> thanks for now
<reinhard> thanks a LOT
<reinhard> woohoo
<reinhard> it asked me the ip address
<reinhard> that is a good sign :)
<dneighbo> reinhard that depends on if you know the ip address ;)
<reinhard> rofl
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> cool ,you guys get the wallop?
<chillywilly> they got their papers for the non-profit OPN corp.
Action: llarens hate mx... etc etc
<llarens> grrr
<dneighbo> mx?
<llarens> somebody knows where is the mx.DateTime module for python 2.1?
<dneighbo> as in mxDateTime
<dneighbo> www.egenix.com
<dneighbo> btw: really should hate python for not having this stuff natively
<llarens> I just downloaded it, but gfdesigner insist that its not here
<dneighbo> having to rely on mx sucks
<dneighbo> you instlal it properly?
<dneighbo> i.e.
<dneighbo> python2.1 setup.py build
<dneighbo> python2.1 setup.py install
<llarens> uh? is not enough with the rpm command?
<llarens> (Im using redhat 7.2)
<dneighbo> i suspect the rpm command is installing it for python1.5.2
<dneighbo> get the source isntead
<dneighbo> http://www.egenix.com/files/python/eGenix-mx-Extensions.html#Download-mxBASE
<llarens> ehhh... I dont think so, is an explicit 2.1 version
<dneighbo> thats problem is redhat packaging is horrid about dependencies
<dneighbo> it doesnt like to let multiple things exist
<dneighbo> llarens i see no OFFICIAL rpms for mx from egenix
<dneighbo> therefore i cant comment 
<llarens> let me see...
<dneighbo> i.e. unlike debian rpm relies on rpms made by peole all over that never check with the whole redhat system :(
<dneighbo> so if its not from the redhat disk its hard to 'trust' it will do what you expect 
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> in the past we have had people get source for
<dneighbo> mxDateTime
<dneighbo> pyXML
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> DBdriver of thier choice
<dneighbo> as its less painful than fighting rpm 
<dneighbo> if you are able to get rpms from all those to work please let us know so we can update our rh7.2 install doc
<dneighbo> honestlyh with python ithink
<dneighbo> setup.py install
<dneighbo> is easier than
<dneighbo> rpm -Uvh packagename
<dneighbo> ;)
<llarens> and as I can see, more effectiveeee
<dneighbo> its been SO long since I have installed rpms on my redhat 6.2 box because of the pain :(
<dneighbo> to me its most unfortunate as i like the redhat system
<dneighbo> i like the company redhat
<dneighbo> but the packaging needs work :(
<llarens> well i'll get the mxdat... source and try
<llarens> see later
<reinhard> oop
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> now it loads the 3x59x module
<reinhard> without error messages
<reinhard> but now i get zero output from ifconfig
<reinhard> and can't even ping localhost
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<yogurt2unge> reinhard: modprobe 3c59x
<llarens> (3com attacks again :)
<reinhard> yogurt2unge: already did that at boot time
<dneighbo> do you have anything in your network file?
<reinhard> can i see somewhere if that module is loaded?
<reinhard> dneighbo: /etc/network?
<dneighbo> less /etc/network/interfaces
<dneighbo> and paste here
<reinhard> just a sec
<reinhard> bash: less: command not found
<reinhard> ;)
<reinhard> j/k
<yogurt2unge> reinhard: i put 3c59x in the file /etc/modules
<reinhard> just a sec
<reinhard> dneighbo: yes there is something and it looks good
<reinhard> can't paste 'cause it's different machine
<reinhard> and i have no network connection between them :)
<llarens> jajaaaa I catch the gfdesignerrrrr
<llarens> the mxdatetime resides in /usr/local/lib, and the rest in /usr/lib
<reinhard> hey wait
<llarens> just copyng from one place to other
<reinhard> dneighbo: i did ifup eth0 and now i got it in ifconfig
<dneighbo> cool
<dneighbo> wish you could paste that output
<llarens> (sorry)
<dneighbo> as i wonder if you dont have it as 'auto eth0'
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> i have as
<reinhard> iface eth0
<reinhard> can i do "auto eth0"?
<dneighbo> hold on have to check home box :)
<dneighbo> as here i us dchp
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> is only for playing anyway
<reinhard> and for getting python 2.0 to run
<dneighbo> auto eth0
<dneighbo> iface eth0 inet static
<dneighbo>         address 24.221.112.50
<dneighbo>         netmask 255.255.255.0
<dneighbo>         gateway 24.221.112.49
<dneighbo> # automatically added when upgrading
<dneighbo> auto eth1
<dneighbo> iface eth1 inet static
<dneighbo>         address 192.168.100.90
<dneighbo>         netmask 255.255.255.0
<dneighbo> so before you iface etho
<dneighbo> er eth0
<reinhard> ah ok
<dneighbo> add auto eth0
<dneighbo> i think this makes it auto start at bootup
<dneighbo> iirc
<reinhard> rebooting
Action: dneighbo is amazed reinhard is taking the debian plunge
<dneighbo> i thought you were happy with suse?
<dneighbo> or just expirementing to broaden horizon?
Action: dneighbo did that and now im in love with debian other than xfree86 4.x :)
<reinhard> derek 2 things
<reinhard> 1. you da man (it works, thanks!!)
<reinhard> 2. i'm experimenting for different reasons
<reinhard> a i like the philosophy of debian better than the one of suse
<reinhard> b most "professionals" seem to prefer debian
<reinhard> c debian seems to be technically superior
<reinhard> d of course i want to broaden horizon :)
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<dneighbo> reinhard i will add
<dneighbo> that currently #gnuenterprise is the best debian support channel around
<Chipaca> hi all
<dneighbo> at least that i know of
<reinhard> yes i figured that, too
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<reinhard> otherwise i'm not sure if i would have dared :)
<dneighbo> so for me on allure to debian is that i can get good answers quickly :)
<dneighbo> hi Chipaca 
<dneighbo> yogurt2unge how is the mx install going?
<reinhard> thanks again to all and l8r
<reinhard> night
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<Chipaca> guys, we want to separate the business logic from the forms. Has anyone here thought along those lines, and if so, where is your braindump re that?
<dneighbo> um yes
<dneighbo> that is what GEAS is for :)
<dneighbo> but SPECIFICALLY you can do this in two tier as well
<Chipaca> ummm
<dneighbo> you can put the actual python code outside the form file
<dneighbo> and just do an 'include' 
<dneighbo> so say you had some accounting functions
<dneighbo> you could make accounting.py
<dneighbo> and just include that in forms that needed those functions
<dneighbo> long term GEAS is the way to for this
<dneighbo> GEASv1 does this right now today but has some technical limitations
<Chipaca> ok, my mistake
<dneighbo> and we are addressing the short comings in GEASv2
<dneighbo> Chipaca : it was a good question
<Chipaca> I had misunderstood yogurt2unge's debfrief
<Chipaca> now we're putting 'em in the forms because geas is AWOL, right?
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<StyXman> hi peop
<jamest> whew looks busy in here today
<StyXman> and aint' it good?
<Chipaca> is there anything like events within geas 2?
<Chipaca> to have an event-driven state machine to work the business logic?
<Chipaca> or should/could this be done atop of geas?
<StyXman> callbacks maybe?
<Chipaca> (nearly said evas instead of geas there)
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<Chipaca> oops
<dneighbo> Chipaca doing too much to process that question
<dneighbo> yes geas had events
<StyXman> had?
<dneighbo> and the new version will be more complex in events 
<Chipaca> geas1
<dneighbo> we are undergiong a big restructure of geas StyXman 
<dneighbo> technically it STILL has :)
<StyXman> dneighbo: so I heard... 
<dneighbo> just i dont advocate using it
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<StyXman> dneighbo: and the new technology will be like... ?
<Chipaca> StyXman: you are receiving the URL of the preliminary whitepaper via icq
<StyXman> Chipaca: ack
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<dneighbo> StyXman what Chipaca said :)
<dneighbo> basically the biggest change
<dneighbo> is using the gnue-common architecture
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<Chipaca> ok, I'll leave now or I'll miss the carpool :)
<Chipaca> see y'all tomorrow
Action: Chipaca notes 5 more developers in gnuenterprise today, and nobody really noticed :)
Action: Chipaca waves
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<nickr> I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore
<chillywilly> kewl, odmg does laxy intialization via a smart pointer in c++
<chillywilly> er, lazy
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<dneighbo> are you all from same company?
<dneighbo> i notice all from .ar
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<nickr> arrr
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<chillywilly> I need a unix guru
<nickr> for what?
<chillywilly> who knows how to extract backups fomr a tape ising tar
<chillywilly> er, tape using tar
<nickr> just like regular tar
<nickr> except -f you give the tape device
<chillywilly> but they want only a specific backup
<chillywilly> I know that much but they onyl want to extract on part or something
<nickr> oh
<nickr> do a t and look fore the files you want, and then put the names on the end of the tar
<nickr> tar -xvf /dev/tp0 foo/bar/baz
<chillywilly> example?
<chillywilly> thanks
<chillywilly> that is a dir though right?
<chillywilly> mnevermind
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<llarens> uf, the gfdsigner works
<llarens> (fnally =)
<llarens> BUT (jeje)
<llarens> i cant connect to a mysql database
<llarens> ends with segment violation
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<jamest> a segfault?
<jamest> can you run gfdesigner -d 10
<jamest> and see what it's doing right before the segfault
<llarens> ok
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<llarens> oh
<llarens> eh
<llarens> now it works
<llarens> what a hell its happend ?!
<jamest> no idea
<jamest> :)
<jamest> maybe a bad username/password triggered a bug in our notification?
<llarens> ehh uh i dont know, from mysql console all seemes ok
<llarens> oh, a beautifull master/detail form :)
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<chillywilly> well
<chillywilly> I should send those guys a bill now eh?
<jamest> llarens: :)
<chillywilly> instaed of calling tech support for their prop. unix
<chillywilly> they call me
<chillywilly> and I help them out for free
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> it would've cost $6,000
<chillywilly> if they called tech support
<llarens> mmm but stiiill somethins is wrong
<chillywilly> why do I feel like I just got ripped off?
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest> llarens: what's up?
<llarens> the gfclient show a laarge amount of error lines (uf)
<jamest> ?
<jamest> um
<jamest> i have to run home now but I'll be back ASAP and we'll get this straightened out
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<llarens> the last says (Typeerror: unsuported operand type for +)
<dneighbo> llarens errors or warnings
<llarens> eu?
<dneighbo> um you are using wrong python :)
<llarens> ehh python2.1
Action: chillywilly goes back to reading the c++ binding for odmg
<dneighbo> um unsupported +
<dneighbo> means you are running forms with python 1.5.2
<llarens> uh??
<llarens> lets see
<dneighbo> chillywilly i think the bill should say remit payment to nickr
<chillywilly> no one says I wouldn't split it
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> I ain't like that
<dneighbo> llarens go to the place where your gnue cvs is
<llarens> dneighbo: mmno, i changed the /usr/bin/env python to python2 (nad the other stuff)
<chillywilly> but shit I just saved them $6,000
<chillywilly> with the help of nickr of course ;)
<chillywilly> imagine what one could do if I converted them to using apache and GNU/Linux
<dneighbo> then go to common/scripts
<dneighbo> llarens you have it working i dont know what mmno means
<chillywilly> anyone hear of cobalt?
<chillywilly> is that Free software?
<jcater> what is free software?
<chillywilly> that's the web server they use
<dneighbo> cobol or cobalt
<chillywilly> cobalt
<chillywilly> cobol is alnaguage
<dneighbo> cobalt the server runs linux
<chillywilly> er, langauge
<dneighbo> which is free
<chillywilly> hrrm
<dneighbo> but owned now by sun 
<chillywilly> heheh
<dneighbo> actually cobalt RAQ's can run many unixes
<dneighbo> but ISPs were getting them with linux by the boat load
<chillywilly> hrrm
<chillywilly> yea
<llarens> sorry dneighbo, i want to say; 'no, im supposing using the python2.1' 
<chillywilly> that's probably what they got
<dneighbo> go to common/scripts/
<chillywilly> well the person I was talking to doesn't know dick
<dneighbo> there is a file called gnue-diag.sh
<chillywilly> she's a web master
<dneighbo> chmod it so you can run it
<dneighbo> and run it
<llarens> ok
<chillywilly> I thought she meant cobalt is the web server
<chillywilly> er, sofwtare that is
<chillywilly> but yea
<chillywilly> cobalt rack server would make more sense ;)
<llarens> guau
<dneighbo> crap jcater we need to fix the script :)
<dneighbo> its expecting a real install :)
<dneighbo> Contents of /usr/local/gnue/etc:
<dneighbo>   Directory does not exist! Checking aborted
<dneighbo> when trying to read conf files
<chillywilly> dneighbo: go to it ;_
<dneighbo> i will when i get home
<chillywilly> what about the top level devel script?
<dneighbo> as i use this script a lot
<chillywilly> to install from cvs
<dneighbo> this isnt about installing its for troubleshooting
<chillywilly> oh
<dneighbo> llarens can you paste the python2.1 section here
<chillywilly> oh that one that probes python
<chillywilly> but doesn't the devel script call it?
<dneighbo> should look something like
<dneighbo> --------------------------------------------------------------------
<dneighbo> Python results for '/usr/bin/python'
<dneighbo> Version:    2.1.2 (#1, Jan 18 2002, 18:05:45) 
<dneighbo>             [GCC 2.95.4  (Debian prerelease)]
<dneighbo> Platform:   linux2
<dneighbo> sys.path:   /usr/lib/python2.1
<dneighbo>             /usr/lib/python2.1/plat-linux2
<dneighbo>             /usr/lib/python2.1/lib-tk
<dneighbo>             /usr/lib/python2.1/lib-dynload
<dneighbo>             /usr/local/lib/python2.1/site-packages
<dneighbo>             /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages
<dneighbo>             /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/Numeric
<dneighbo> PyXML:       Installed
<dneighbo> mxDateTime:  2.0.3
<dneighbo> Checking /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages:
<dneighbo>   /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/wxPython:  found
<dneighbo>   /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/pygresql:  *NOT found*
<dneighbo>   /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/psycopg:  found
<dneighbo>   /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/pyPgSQL:  *NOT found*
<dneighbo>   /usr/lib/python2.1/site-packages/MySQLdb:  *NOT found*
<dneighbo> --------------------------------------------------------------------
<llarens> lets see
<chillywilly> hrrrm, why does that seem so autoconf like ;)
<dneighbo> then you will need to change gfcvs, gfdes etc (wherever you put them) proably ~/bin/
<dneighbo> and edit them to say
<dneighbo>      /usr/bin/python2.1 /home/dneighbo/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-03-07/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/GFClient.py $*
<chillywilly> I don't get it 
<jcater> chillywilly: that's not an installation/configuration script, but a diagnostic tool for us tech support people :)
<dneighbo> only where /usr/bin/python2.1 is the location of your python
<chillywilly> jcater: heheh, sure
<llarens> oh ho, I have TWO python section
<dneighbo> right you should have more than one
<chillywilly> well I really need to pund out this api spec ;)
<dneighbo> as you have python1.5.2 and python2.1
<chillywilly> as it is late now
<dneighbo> im just interested in the one you THINK you are using :)
Action: chillywilly should know better then to say he will get something done on the weekend
<dneighbo> so we can verify everythign is good and installed
<jcater> chillywilly: api for what?
<dneighbo> then we will edit gfcvs, gfdes
<dneighbo> geasv2 i suppose?
<chillywilly> geas client api
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> yep, I want to propose soem ideas anyway and see what everyone thinks
<jcater> personally
<chillywilly> taking some freom reinhard's and building on that
<jcater> I think we are starting at the wrong end of the geas problem
<dneighbo> i agree
<chillywilly> well....
<dneighbo> i think in someways it might be best to take what we have
<dneighbo> and see what it would take to make it use common
<dneighbo> and common rpc
<chillywilly> the client api needs transaction support though
<dneighbo> and slowly clean up as we go
<chillywilly> they way I see it
<chillywilly> you don't do anything without using a transaction object
<dneighbo> but i dont know much
<dneighbo> a rewrite sounds good too
<llarens> emm seemes that mysql module not found (but ASK ME for a user & pass (?))
<dneighbo> llarens well i still think its executing wrong python for forms
<jcater> chillywilly: imho, we should start out with what we want the gcd files to look like
<dneighbo> if you are getting += unstupported
<chillywilly> besides where's the best place to go for a more fully intergated GNUe ;)
<dneighbo> can you look at gfcvs and gfdes files for me?
<chillywilly> jcater: I'd like them to look like ODL files
<jcater> then make a converter to generate the relational backend sql that creates the tables
<jcater> I don't really give a damn what they look like
<jcater> just that we need to look at that first :)
<dneighbo> and tell me what is there for python like what i pasted above?
<chillywilly> that's fine
<jcater> dneighbo: I think we need to add the Python version number to the -d output of the tools
<jcater> what do you think?
<jcater> :)
Action: jcater already knows the answer to that
<dneighbo> yes agree
<llarens> wait wait all this mess is because i dont want to compile from te sources
<dneighbo> no
<chillywilly> http://news.gnome.org/1016562428/
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> im not certain thats the problem llarens 
<chillywilly> have you seen this hacker?
<chillywilly> ;P
<llarens> ups
<dneighbo> you shouldnt have to cmpile from sources
<dneighbo> cept egenix and pyxml (and thats just cause its easier than fighting rpms)
<dneighbo> chillywilly thanks for that link
<dneighbo> this is good reason for copyright assignment as well
<dneighbo> only not to change license
<dneighbo> but imagine if the copyright was in question
<dneighbo> and they had to forfiet their defenese
<dneighbo> because they couldnt find hacker X
<dneighbo> ask me this is just sloppy legal work on mozilla's part
<chillywilly> not to mentiona  big pain in the ass
<chillywilly> ;)
<dneighbo> llarens you still here?
<llarens> uep?
<llarens> yes, but this f****** xchat dont let me to paste the file
<llarens> mail it?
<chillywilly> use the middle mouse button or click both of them
<chillywilly> llarens: or you can do /exec -o cat file ;)
<llarens> (auch, feature intentionallu deactivated ;)
<llarens> lo que?
<chillywilly> do you guys no EBNF?
<dneighbo> not too worried about pasting it
<dneighbo> just tell me what is in gfcvs, gfdes
<chillywilly> I mena if I had the EBNF for ODl would it make sense to yall?
<jcater> dneighbo: for future use, the cvs tools will now show the underlying python version when run with -d1
<chillywilly> er, ODL
<dneighbo> the line after PYTHONPATH=
<jcater> doesn't help today, but someday :)
<dneighbo> depends llarens you running cvs?
<dneighbo> if so from cvs or from a nightly
<llarens> nuuu, i just downloaded a snapshot
<llarens> remember: im a poor mediocre developer from a third world country :)
<dneighbo> gotcha
<dneighbo> for now if you can just type the line after PYTHONPATH=
<llarens> (and becoming to miss the old good days of btrieve/clipper)
<dneighbo> from gfcvs
<dneighbo> hmm in some fashions gnue will be simliar to clipper for you
<dneighbo> jcater you ever get patch from arturas?
<dneighbo> llarens which third world coutnry you from?
<dneighbo> kansas?
<dneighbo> er did i say that ;)
<jcater> dneighbo: yes
<llarens> arrrrr
<jcater> it's what I expected to see
<llarens> yentinaa
<jcater> a lot of _() usage
<jcater> which is the standard gettext stuff for python
<dneighbo> what is _() you mean method calls
<jcater> um
<dneighbo> or is _() something special
<jcater> to use gettext in python
<jcater> instead of doing a 
<jcater> print "Derek is a dumbass"
<jcater> you would do
<jcater> print _("Derek is a dumbass")
<jcater> it's a special method
<dneighbo> gotcha
<dneighbo> i started thinking about this
<jcater> :)
<llarens> or: argentina :)
<dneighbo> do we really need all the lines to do this?
<jcater> well
<dneighbo> i.e. or can we assume 'developers' will speak english
<jcater> that's one of my issues
<dneighbo> so only 'error' type messages
<jcater> he converted a lot of stuff
<dneighbo> should we convert
<jcater> that I don;t think needed converting
<jcater> like our debugging print statements
<dneighbo> well some of these maybe we do want converted?
<dneighbo> the ones that run when you dont choose a 'leve'
<jcater> I think only text the enduser will see should be translated myself
<dneighbo> er level
<dneighbo> right i agree
<jcater> well, some perhaps
<dneighbo> thats what i mean by any messages that get put out w/o debugging turned on
<jcater> maybe -d1 or -d2 level stuff
<jcater> but anything higher up is really stuff for jamest and my use
<jcater> -d1 might be useful translated
<dneighbo> btw: i think he is only doing what we told him so he probably woudl agree with us :)
<jcater> not sure
<dneighbo> as we said make it i18n
<jcater> my main hangup isn't laziness on jamest and my part
<dneighbo> at a minimum --help needs to be gettext
<dneighbo> speed
<jcater> it's that the more we use _() for, the
<jcater> more translators will have to translate
<jcater> and I don't want to waste their time on frivolous debugging statements
<jcater> oh, and speed :)
<dneighbo> i think a good rule of thumb is developer out put should be english only (like the code)
<dneighbo> end user output should be i18n
<dneighbo> the hard thing is defining developer vs. enduser :)
<dneighbo> i.e. most of the time its crystal clear but not always :)
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> :(
<llarens> mm i dont found PYTHONPATH
<dneighbo> in gfcvs?
<dneighbo> your gfcvs should look similar to
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:~/bin$ less gfcvs0307 
<dneighbo> #!/bin/sh
<dneighbo>      if [ "z$GNUE_CONNECTIONS" = "z" ]
<dneighbo>       then
<dneighbo>        if [ -f /home/dneighbo/gnue/etc/connections.conf ]
<dneighbo>        then
<dneighbo>          GNUE_CONNECTIONS=/home/dneighbo/gnue/etc/connections.conf
<dneighbo>          export GNUE_CONNECTIONS
Action: chillywilly is away: reading
<dneighbo>        fi
<dneighbo>      fi
<dneighbo>      if [ "z$INSTALL_PREFIX" = "z" ]
<dneighbo>      then
<dneighbo>        INSTALL_PREFIX=/home/dneighbo/gnue
<dneighbo>        export INSTALL_PREFIX
<dneighbo>      fi
<dneighbo>      PYTHONPATH=/home/dneighbo/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-03-07/.cvsdevelbase:$PYTHONPATH; export PYTHONPATH
<dneighbo>      /usr/bin/python2.1 /home/dneighbo/downloads/gnue-cvs-2002-03-07/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/GFClient.py $*
<dneighbo>   
<dneighbo> dneighbo@wright:~/bin$      
<dneighbo> im interested in what you line says where mine is /usr/bin/python2.1
<dneighbo> what is yours?
Action: dneighbo is also curious as to method you installed cvs 
<dneighbo> from root gnue cvs dir did you run setup.py install or did you run that for each tool
<llarens> seeing...
<dneighbo> jcater regardless im tickled that we have the support htere so we are forced to make a choice
<dneighbo> so llarens and the others from argentina can make native forms :)
<dneighbo> plus jamest can make those ks locales he's been crying for so his forms feel 'right'
<jcater> I can do my TN versions too
<dneighbo> rofl
<jcater> "Dang it, boy... ya ain't doin it rite"
<dneighbo> i can see the inventory screen now
<dneighbo> part number = da code
<dneighbo> part name = whatcha call it
<dneighbo> qty = how many
<dneighbo> price = setcha back
<dneighbo> exchange:
<llarens> ups, i must go out, TOMORROW will be another productive day
<llarens> thanks a lottttttt
<dneighbo> vendor: How many whatcha call its ya want?
<dneighbo> customer: 5
<dneighbo> vendor: thats gonna setcha back 10 bucks
<llarens> bye!
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<dneighbo> we need to find out how to make a rh7.2 install easier
<dneighbo> maybe i need to look at making rpms
<dneighbo> dtm when you ask why i like debian
<dneighbo> this kind of red hat stuff is why
<dneighbo> debian install of gnue literally takes longer to download than anything else
<dneighbo> jcater what a debian install running you nowadays
<dneighbo> i think last two times i installed gnue on debian
<jcater> huh?
<dneighbo> maybe 5 minutes
<jcater> oh
<jcater> yeah, something like that
<dneighbo> a reinstall of cvs w/ dependencies already here
<dneighbo> like a minute
Nick change: jcater -> jcFooooD
<jcFooooD> I'm going to get some food, fool
<jcFooooD> :)
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<dneighbo> time to go sit in the traffic
<dneighbo> bbl
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<nickr> He a Unix Wizard,
<nickr> I just can't get the gist
<nickr> A Unix wizard's 
<nickr> Got such a mental twist
Nick change: jcFooooD -> jcStuffed
<jcStuffed> err
Nick change: jcStuffed -> jcater
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<derek> i need a nap
<derek> and some food
<derek> maybe some whats that stuff called jcater
<derek> tequila?
<jcater> yip
<jcater> blue agave
<jcater> mmmm, mmmm, good
<jcater> I'm going to be sending out a Reports email soon
<jcater> and I expect feedback
<jcater> :)
<jcater> it's only 292 lines
<jcater> so grab some coffee, add a little Bailey's, and kick back in your chair to 
<jcater> read 292 lines of reporting bliss
<jcater> s/lis//
<crazymike> how do you extract .tar.bz2 files???
<jcater> debian?
<crazymike> yeah
<jcater> tar -xvjf <filename>
<crazymike> thank you
<jcater> no prob
<nickr> tequila? yow.
<nickr> that stuff makes me really sick.=
<jcater> well, dude
<jcater> you don't actually chew the worm
<jcater> you swallow it whole
<neilt> its also bad from to leave the 25% in the bottle
<neilt> s/from/form/
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<dneighbo> hey where did that quit message come from ....
<nickr> In general it makes me sick
<nickr> the very smell
<neilt> :)
<dneighbo> help
<dneighbo> gnucash actually seemed ok
<dneighbo> but it has like NO reporting
<nickr> are you kidding?
Action: dneighbo needs to get cvs version running again only this time with postgres db
<dneighbo> so i can use gnue
<nickr> gnucast has sweet reporting
<dneighbo> nickr: im not kidding
<dneighbo> if you know how to make good reports with gnucash please clue me in
<nickr> write a reports plugin for gnucash so they can interoperate ;)
<dneighbo> ah actually its not so bad
<dneighbo> just shitty ui
<dneighbo> i ws going to say you couldnt even choose date ranges
<nickr> complain :)
<dneighbo> but thats not true you just have to find the 'options' button
<nickr> or redesign the ui
<dneighbo> never seen a product like this that didnt do reports more 'wizard' like
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> nickr: have you dealt with gnucash folks or code?
<nickr> well its still up-and-comming
<nickr> no
<dneighbo> easy is not in their VOCABULARY
<nickr> I just dispense advice at random
<dneighbo> example you extend gnucash with SCHEME (like thtat is popular for end users that arent MIT grads)
<dneighbo> and code
<dneighbo> look at the source some time
<dneighbo> hell look at the dependencies :)
<dneighbo> that said i just want a pfm (personal finance manager) that works
<dneighbo> they seem to be providing one so im not out to knock them :
<nickr> I thought they added python to their extension languages
<nickr> ah
<nickr> perl
<nickr> well thats easier than guile at least :)
<nickr> guile as actually really easy
<dneighbo> um actually the have perl
<dneighbo> but no one has used it :)
<dneighbo> and its no longer maintained :)
<nickr> its just that most people learn procedural languages instead of functional
<dneighbo> nickr: i wasnt knocking scheme
<dneighbo> my comment was unless you are an MIT grad
<dneighbo> meaning most folks other than MIT/Berkley grads are really learning functional programming :)
<nickr> many colleges teach functionaly programming in the CS program
<nickr> well UIUC does in additon to those you named at least
<nickr> :)
<nickr> the only reason I know scheeme is that my exgf went to UIUC aond she gave me her copy of tThe little Schemer
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<dneighbo> hmm actually the reporting is pretty ok
<dneighbo> now i just need to corral them into adding budgeting
<dneighbo> nickr: yes many do
<dneighbo> i shouldnt say MIT students
<dneighbo> but rather computer science students
<dneighbo> though thats too general
<dneighbo> as only a small percentage of them get more than a brief introduction
<nickr> yea, it really depends on how 'serious' the CS program is
<nickr> if they are *scientists*, then they learn scheme
<nickr> else they are very procedural oriented
<dneighbo> you know what its just kick butt i think i finally for REAL am totally windows free
<nickr> hehe
<dneighbo> though i suppose i need to get camera and scanner working to really say that
<nickr> those are easy
<dneighbo> but i havent had windows installed for over a month or so
<nickr> they are either supported or not
<dneighbo> and i have financials
<dneighbo> nice color reports printing
<dneighbo> its just so nice
<dneighbo> and of course there is frozen bubble :)
<nickr> of course. ;)
<nickr> you should install cuyo for when you get tired of frozen bubble
<dneighbo> honestly if debian came installed on an oem pc
<dneighbo> i think normal home users could use it without much problem
<nickr> yea
<nickr> definitely
<nickr> especially if it had some sort of auto fix/auto update thing
<nickr> as part of the purchase price
<dneighbo> especially if they have never been infected w/ having to use windows
<nickr> heh
<nickr> yea
<nickr> debian is really weird
<nickr> its like a service of quality control for all software in existance
<nickr> most people are used to going to a vendor and downloading the software
<nickr> debian does that part for you
<nickr> and indexes it
<nickr> its so strange.
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<jcater> dneighbo: write a pfm using GNUe
<nickr> debian sort of draws you into a communal thing
<nickr> its actually sort of similar to the Mechinists in _Distraction_
<nickr> er whatever
<dneighbo> sigh its too real :)
<dneighbo> i want dummy quicken
<dneighbo> as my house payment, car payments, etc are not in expense
<dneighbo> so a income/expense report lies
Action: dneighbo wonders right way to do this
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<dneighbo> grrr they are doing it right i think 
<dneighbo> but reports are worthless to me if i dont see my payments against liabilities as an expense
<dneighbo> as i cant see waht a SPEND in a month
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> well, if I were you
<jcater> (which I'm not)
<jcater> I'd refuse to make the payments
<jcater> on the grounds that you can't get the reports right
<jcater> not sure if they'd buy that or not
<jcater> but if they do, let me know :)
<jcater> what does gnucash use as a backend?
<jcater> some internal format?
<dneighbo> internal format
<dneighbo> they do have postgres support but only in cvs
<dneighbo> and hear horror stories
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<dneighbo> trying to do my budget and this isnt boding well
<neilt> later all
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<dneighbo> i dont have quicken installed anymore so i cant look at one of thier reports to explain what im after
<dneighbo> but i think they put the liabilites stuff under expense reports or somehting
<dneighbo> or maybe not, i suppose i just did them as 'categories' or expenses
<dneighbo> but i know thats not correct way to do accounting
<jcater> I'm off
<jcater> please read my reports email :)
<jcater> if those damn gnu servers will ever send it on
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<dneighbo> so i dont get real depiction of what im 'spending'
<dneighbo> i could make them just expense accounts but that doesnt seem correct
<dneighbo> im half way remember you have to have an 'middle man'
<dneighbo> so you have an expense account you book the charge to
<jamest> lindsay isn't sure
<dneighbo> then move from the expense account to the liability account
<dneighbo> so that you see the 'payment' as an expense
<dneighbo> but the liability account is still intact for a balance sheet
<dneighbo> i think being a dumb quicken user was more simple :)
<dneighbo> i think i just got evil with my bad self
<dneighbo> now a mortage payment is 4 transactions
<dneighbo> in: mortgage account
<dneighbo> out: checking account
<dneighbo> in: mortgage loan (liability)
<dneighbo> out: mortgage account (expense)
<dneighbo> now to see how that shows up on the expense report
<dneighbo> as suspected in hindsight that makes the mortgage (expense) zero so that doesnt solve problem
<dneighbo> f it 
<dneighbo> for now im moving them to expense accounts and having no liabilities so i can run rerpots 
<nickr> isn't that how its supposed to be structuerd?
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> every transaction has 2 entries
<chillywilly> you are always transferring form one accoutn to the other
Action: chillywilly uses gnucash all the time now
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<dneighbo> chillywilly: im aware of that
<chillywilly> whatever, dude
<chillywilly> you complain too much
<dneighbo> i cant get credit card payment or loan payments to show on an 'expenditure' report
<dneighbo> to show my outflow amounts
<dneighbo> and your point is?
<dneighbo> i moved my loans to expense accounts since im not really tracking the 'loan' anyhow
<dneighbo> which at least recovered some items
<dneighbo> but the credit cards i had no such luck
<chillywilly> point is wait until dres gets here and go to the source ;)
<chillywilly> or drag your happy ass over to #gnucash
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> in fact I found them to be very helpful wehn I first started using it
<chillywilly> they held my hand
<chillywilly> it was lovely
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<beast> hello all ppl
<chillywilly> hello
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<nickr> I'm going to sleep well tommarrow night. No fucking books to worry about.
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<dtm> hi all
<dtm> mdean: @#*)
--- Wed Mar 20 2002