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<dtm> reinhard: hi
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<dtm> alexey: hi
<dtm> Mr_You: ih
<dtm> HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN <i>!!</i>
<nickr> ITS YOU <em>!!</em>
<reinhard> morning all
<dtm> WHAT YOU SAY <b>!!</b>
<dtm> reinhard: #(*
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<dtm> WHAT Mr_You SAY <em>!!</em>
<nickr> SOMEBODY SET US UP THE ð!
<dtm> h0h0
<dtm> nickr: whazhap, dewde?
<dtm> nickr: ALL YOUR QUARK-TO-WORD ARE BELONG TO NICKR <i>!!</i>
<nickr> bitch
<nickr> I'm making serious progress tonite though
<nickr> I'm on the last book, on the second chapter
<dtm> #@*!(
<nickr> going backwards
<nickr> from 4
<dtm> KILL 
<dtm> KILL THEM ALL.
<nickr> including the biography
<dtm> i mean...  you go, boy.
<nickr> thankfully its not the whole boooks :)
<dtm> yeah
<nickr> I woulda had to bust out some serious scripts for that
<dtm> dewd once i had to convert a ton of sprintnet mainframe-based scripted tty-like applications into html
<dtm> talk about a paradigm shift
<nickr> ouch
<dtm> at least we had a standard html UI
<dtm> very basic though
<dtm> and of course those of our team who were using Frontpage were able to *lITERALLY* generate pages exceeding 1MB
<dtm> of html
<dtm> contemplate, if you will.
<dtm> or dont!
<dtm> spare yourself!
<dtm> they used _hundreds_ of blank tables as spaces and blank lines.
<dtm> crashing browsers left and right
<dtm> sprint mandated that IE compatibility was a low priority
<dtm> so as to make the project POSSIBLE.
<dtm> that was in 1997
<dtm> or so
<dtm> maybe 1996
<nickr> uh
<nickr> heh
<nickr> scary
<nickr> I love how effective a diaretic caffiene is
<dtm> :-/
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> at least I know I'll never have trouble peeing.
<nickr> the thing that annoys me about this project is I always forget the classnames of my css properties.
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<dtm> nickr: darn!
<dtm> Yurik: werd
<dtm> nickr: yeah my problem is that i'm geting tired of coding html in vi
<dtm> i need to use some visual tools
<dtm> amazingly, i've been using OpenOffice for that
<dtm> it does excellent html output
<dtm> afaik
<nickr> emacs helps me a lot
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<nickr> HTML is pretty annoying in general. I like XML much better. :)
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> :/
<dtm> nickr: does your business have a web site?
<dtm> mine is http://ambassadorcommunicationservices.com
<dtm> feel free to give constructive criticism and such
<nickr> my 'business' doesn't
<dtm> hm
<nickr> the people I'm doing this for have svetlost.net, which I admin  also
<dtm> does it have a name?
<nickr> but the site SUCKs its frontpage
<dtm> heh!
<dtm> well i wont even look then ;)
<nickr> good
<nickr> my personal site is nice though ;)
<dtm> url?
<dtm> GIMME
<nickr> nick.industrialmeats.com
<dtm> oh yeah i a'member dat
<nickr> not as cool as nick.industrialmeats.com/proj/sites/personal/new/
<nickr> but I went with the easy to maintain/cool one, rather than the beautifully pretentious one
<dtm> nickr: would you mind sending an email with any content (test mail) to info@ambassadorcommunicationservices.com please?
<dtm> pretty puhleeze.
<dtm> holy cow that 'new' site is awesome
<dtm> YYOU ARE TRULY A SUPERIOR CREATURE.
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> I decided to go with osemithng that I would'ht have to rewrite the copy for every month
<nickr> altohugh I could adopt the design
<dtm> holy cow your friend had an A500 with 68040?!
<dtm> geez.
<dtm> now, send me that test email OR BE DESTROYED
<dtm> omg   your A3000 had 10MB ram?
<dtm> and 600MB filesystem
<dtm> that's insane
<dtm> )#(@
<dtm> wow i bet the severe downgrade from Sweet to Moa was quite traumatic.
<dtm> i, persnally, would have been dying
<dtm> i went from Apple //gs to a top notch 486 and that was bad enough
<dtm> SEND THE TEST EMAIL
<nickr> I sent it
<dtm> stanx
<dtm> HEY WAIT 
<dtm> THAT'S NOT _REALL_ FROM THE EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM, IS IT?!
<dtm> HOW DID YOU AMASS THEIR COOPERATION
<dtm> WOW, WHEN I MAKE A REQUEST TO YOU, NICKR, YOU _REALLY_ DELIVER!@
<nickr> HEHEH
<nickr> they are my close friends
<dtm> YAAY@#*
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<nickr> ah so close
<dtm> nickr: good night , sir
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<nickr> yay!
<nickr> done!
<nickr> now I can sleep
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<reinhard> l8r all
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<llarens> uinas
<llarens> good morning people
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<Arturas> Hello
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<dneighbo> hi Arturas 
<Arturas> ]Hello Derek
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<dneighbo> hey jcater i got pictures of you at the tradeshow you just attended
<dneighbo> see you were doing some booth duty passing out fliers
<dneighbo> http://www.dopey.net/goat.gif
<ToyMan> dneighbo: check out the contacts app yet?
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<Chipaca> where are the databases created when not using GEAS?
<jamest> Chipaca: anywhere you like
<Chipaca> no, I mean I did grep -r -i create.*database in gnue and all I found were some samples and some stuff in geas
<jamest> ah
<jamest> geas autocreated the db's, when not using geas we don't have any complete system
<Chipaca> shoot
<jamest> <bang!>
Action: Chipaca tries to laugh, but fails
<jamest> :)
<Chipaca> could you send me a schema dump of the db so we can try the stuff out wo geas?
<jamest> i don't have anything like that that could be used
<jamest> which part are you interested in?
<jamest> complete apps? the tool themselves? other?
<Chipaca> erm... hold on
<Chipaca> yogurt2unge?
<Chipaca> what are the parts we're needing now?
Action: Chipaca pushes yogurt2unge a bit
<jamest> dneighbo: jcaters looking a bit better than he did on the SF trip
<yogurt2unge> finances tables for example
<Chipaca> we're trying to get a hand on things like invoices and stuff like that
<jamest> all that work is currently geas only :(
<Chipaca> sheiße
<jamest> i think there are some very crude things in the works
<jamest> more as samples of the tools though
<jamest> at one time I swore I heard dneighbo talk about using SQL*Ledger schema w/ a gnue front end as a sample
<jamest> but I'm not sure if that was something someone did or something someone was thinking about doing
<Arturas> Chipaca: what irc client are you using?
<Chipaca> epic4
<Arturas> Chipaca: linux?
<Chipaca> yeap
<Chipaca> why?
<Arturas> sheishe
<Arturas> it is with i18n data
<Chipaca> yes, it just works (tm) :)
<Chipaca> actually if it doesn't work for you, I touched my .inputrc for all apps, not just this one.
<yogurt2unge> jamest: where is SQL*Ledger?
<Chipaca> ...
<jamest> http://www.sql-ledger.org/
<Chipaca> so what you're telling me is that there is no standard schema for business apps?
<Chipaca> or is in a whitepaper somewhere and we just have to implement it?
<Chipaca> we've got to start with the schema [sounds like a name for a song]
<jamest> :)
<jamest> neilt and others have been defining one in geas's gcd language 
<jamest> it's in the packages dir
<jamest> in cvs
<Chipaca> ahaa
<Chipaca> ok
<jamest> also there are some docs he's put together
<jamest> which might be found at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~neilt/
<Chipaca> nothing there as far as I can tell (nothing related to db schemas)
<Arturas> guys, could you help me a bit? :)
<Arturas> could you ping goda.vtu.lt
<Arturas> and send me ip adress? :)
<Arturas> [looks like network DNS server has just died :) ]
Action: mdean looks @ dneighbo
<Arturas> and i've been left without email :(
<Chipaca> PING goda.vtu.lt (193.219.146.3): 56 data bytes
<Chipaca> --- goda.vtu.lt ping statistics ---
<Chipaca> 1 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss
<Chipaca> PING goda.vtu.lt (193.219.146.3): 56 data bytes
<Chipaca> 64 bytes from 193.219.146.3: icmp_seq=0 ttl=232 time=382.0 ms
<Chipaca> 64 bytes from 193.219.146.3: icmp_seq=1 ttl=232 time=373.1 ms
<Chipaca> --- goda.vtu.lt ping statistics ---
<Chipaca> 2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss
<Chipaca> round-trip min/avg/max = 373.1/377.5/382.0 ms
<Chipaca> ok?
<Arturas> yes :)
<Arturas> thanks :)
<Chipaca> is there any script or foo to convert .gcd into .sql ?
Action: Chipaca considers the price of having whats-his-name coming over and explaining this IRL
<Chipaca> reinhard
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<StyXman> hi peop
<jamest> hi
<jamest> Chipaca: i think the geas folks had a tool that did this but I can't find it
<Chipaca> what I found was a tool to convert .geas into .sql, but those are INSERTs, not CREATEs. :/
<Chipaca> that's in geas/toos/
<Chipaca> tools
<Chipaca> yo StyXman 
<jamest> :(
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<ra3vat> Arturas: you here?
<Arturas> yes
<Arturas> reading now your email
<dneighbo> jamest what is that collaboration software?
<dneighbo> that we were gonna use written in java
<ra3vat> Arturas: how is your yesterday's example? do you need me something to do?
<dneighbo> never found cvw
<Arturas> could you just open it
<Arturas> and say
<Arturas> do you see the same in title
<Arturas> and in labels
<Arturas> or not
<ra3vat> ok, trying
<jcater> http://cvw.sourceforge.net/
<psu> Does anyone know where the source is for 
<psu> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/accounting_package/
<psu> ? 
<psu> I volunteered to fix it, but can't find it in cvs.
<psu> If it was at /docbook/Proposals/Accounting
<psu> then it has been removed ;-(
<psu> If it is at /packages/finance/package-doc 
<psu> then it has already been fixed.
<psu> If it is somewhere else, I don't know what I'm talking about 
<psu> (so no change there, heh)
<ra3vat> Arturas: the title and status is not the same according to the source code
<ra3vat> and of course I do not see specific i18n characters
<Arturas> check the letter
<Arturas> it's encoded in utf8
<Arturas> and should display correct data
<Arturas> (if your email client does support utf8 ;)
<Arturas> in source title/status and menu should be the same
<Arturas> should <= must :)
<StyXman> is setup.py do anything with --prefix and --exec-prefix?
<StyXman> doing ./setup.py install --prefix=../../../live --exec-prefix=~/bin
<StyXman> I get error: could not create '/usr/local/gnue': Permission denied
<Arturas> ra3vat: not exactly the same, but characters should be the same
<Arturas> StyXman: do you run setup.py as root??
<StyXman> Arturas: nope. I'm trying to install it in my home.
<Arturas> it tries to copy something in /usr
<Arturas> which you can't do
<Arturas> unless you are root
<StyXman> Arturas: anyway, shouldn't setup.py use the passed --prefix and --exec-prefix things?
<Arturas> don't know :(
<StyXman> :/
<Arturas> maybe it's not implementedd
<StyXman> :|
<Arturas> do you have root access?
<StyXman> yeap, but I like to keep my system clean.
<Arturas> it copies symlinks into /usr
<Arturas> 6 symlinks (if i'm not mistakening)
<Arturas> and you can choose
<Arturas> keep your system clean
<Arturas> or
<Arturas> have no problems with install :)
<Arturas> :)
<Arturas> must go now
<Arturas> bye :)
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<ra3vat> Arturas: yes Outlook Express do support UTF8 :)
<jamest> StyXman: --prefix current isn't honord
<dneighbo> use cvs
<dneighbo> if you want to determine WHERE to isntall
<dneighbo> i.e. clean old system
<dneighbo> for now
<StyXman> dneighbo: how?
<StyXman> dneighbo: and I'm using cvs...
<nickr> hey hey hey
<nickr> whatsthe good word?
<jcater> blue
<psu> goat
<nickr> no, I'm sorry, you're both wrong
<nickr> is 'asymptote'
<nickr> but you'll still get lovely parting gifts
<jcater> ooo
<jcater> that'd would make a good jazz band
Action: Chipaca thought it was 'korybantic'
<jcater> The Blue Goat Asymptotes
<nickr> jcater: Asymptote?
<nickr> hahahah
<nickr> ahaha
<dneighbo> StyXman 
<dneighbo> from your root cvs dir for gnue
<dneighbo> do
<dneighbo> setup.py install
<dneighbo> it ASKS where you want to put things iirc
<dneighbo> by default i believe it puts in ~/bin/
<dneighbo> for the executables 
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> ~/gnue/etc/
<dneighbo> for the configuration files
<jamest> that is now setup-cvs.py IIRC
<jamest> in the topmost gnue directory
<dneighbo> yes you are right setup-cvs.py 
<dneighbo> but root of gnue cvs 
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<dneighbo> dang art adn rav both left
<dneighbo> wonder how that i18n testing went
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<klog> anyone alive?
<jamest> alive and kicking
<jamest> er, working
<jcater> alive
<jcater> but not necessarily kicking
<klog> jamest
<klog> !
<jcater> well, do users count?
<jamest> jcater: not kicking? did your user escape?
<klog> jamest, you a gnue coder?
<jcater> :(
<jcater> klog: we like to let him think he is
<jamest> yip, I concentrate on added bugs and confusing code snippets
<klog> i need comments on this: http://www.praefect-sys.com/en/TEP/view/index.html
Action: jcater ducks
<jamest> wow, theres a bit of info there
<klog> not much
<klog> jamest
<jamest> a bit meaning a bit much for me to read at the moment (real work :(
<Chipaca> AGH
<Chipaca> curse the db schemas from hell
<klog> aah sucks
<nickr> create table satan ( 
<klog> jamest
<Chipaca> who is responsible for the schema currently in the .gcd files ?
<klog> howcome you've got a "real work" and not your own business?
<jamest> because gnue is my hobby
<jamest> it wouldn't be as fun otherwise
<klog> why only a hobby?
<klog> its business systems
<Chipaca> specifically, who should I tear down a strip for ./packages/finance/ar/classes/invoice.gcd ?
<jamest> klog: a quick read thru it  makes me think it's somewhat like GNUe
<klog> yes
<jamest> s/java/python
<klog> same goals
<jamest> s/pixel based ui/char based ui
<jamest> the navigation system seems farther along (if this is a working product)
<klog> but there were a few things that i thought were missing with gnue
<klog> yes
<klog> its hierarchy
<klog> instead of flat space
<klog> i'm working on security currently, security clearances, sensitivity labels, integrity, etc.
<klog> i thought maybe there's a way to interoperate with gnue
<klog> or even merge code 100%
<klog> take best of all, make opensource software of it
<jamest> hmmm
<nickr> I personally would think interoperating security mechanisms would be a good thing
<dneighbo> Chipaca i will say this again
<dneighbo> THE GCDS WERE WRITTEN TO BE READ BY OBJECTS
<Chipaca> YES OK
<dneighbo> thusly the schemas are evil and not to be used without the objects
<Chipaca> I GOT THAT
<Chipaca> ugh
<dneighbo> i would avoid the gcd's at almost all costs at this point :)
<dneighbo> unless you are willing to wait for GEASv2
<dneighbo> not trying to be a jerk just trying to reduce your frustrations
<Chipaca> I have a problem then: I need to create a schema that will be useful with geasv2
<jamest> klog: it's an interesting idea for sure
<dneighbo> klog looking now
<jamest> lots of people here will have things to say about it
<dneighbo> from just what i read here
<jamest> dneighbo is one of them :)
<klog> i dont care if some code is lost in the process
<dneighbo> a. we are not java fans, but that doesnt rule interoperation or merging out
<klog> its evolution, evolution means code dies, other lives
<jamest> unless someone can figure out a way to keep him quiet.....we're all out of ideas on that though 
<dneighbo> b. we are all about 'free software' and thus on a whole we dont mesh with 'open source' ideology always
<nickr> we haven't tried tying him up and putting him in the closet yet
<dneighbo> i.e. even if technically all things for a merger line up if the philosphical differences are too great all is lost
<dneighbo> that said giong to go read the page
<klog> what is diff between free software and opensource?
Action: Chipaca holds his head
<klog> policies are not a problem
<klog> dneigh, we had talks a while ago
<klog> i had time to think of this
<dneighbo> klog the differences are in philosphy
<dneighbo> open source is a saying giving source code away is good for business and helps the business be more profitable
<dneighbo> free software is saying sharing is good (giving source is part of sharing) and if that helps a business and profits great if not too bad
<klog> ok
<Chipaca> dneighbo: you should insert some punctuation now and then: as in '...profits, great; if not, too bad' or something like that
<Chipaca> :)
<klog> how can you give away source while restricting people from giving away free
<dneighbo> see this is the philosphy difference i speak of :)
<klog> does opensource not imply most likely free?
<nickr> no
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<dneighbo> im not going to be militant like rms and say that one can not use term opensource or die an untimely death
<dneighbo> just saying when i hear you say opensource
<nickr> although the OSI approved licenses re mostly free software
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<dneighbo> my first thought is that our ideleogies are probably vastly different
<klog> i am unable to grab the difference
<dneighbo> and why i stated if the philosphy of the two projects dont mesh
<klog> i am for 0 restriction
<dneighbo> we are not
<dneighbo> a real world example
<klog> free software means cannot make people pay for it also?
<dneighbo> people say that america is 'free' correct
<dneighbo> but i cant walk to the cube next to me and kill someone
<dneighbo> or i will go to JAIL
<dneighbo> so am i free or not?
<dneighbo> technically i am NOT free to do what i want
<klog> ok but...
<dneighbo> free software as in GPL is the same way
<nickr> dneighbo: you are free to do that as long as you choose to take the punishment
<klog> ok
<dneighbo> you are free to do what you want as long as you dont harm the collective
<dneighbo> nickr right just as i can violate the GPL if i choose to suffer an consequences
<nickr> dneighbo: yep.
<klog> see free soft as opposed to open source not only implies obligation of providing source with software but also provide software at no cost?
<dneighbo> klog we are not saying you cant make money with free software
<dneighbo> we are not saying you cant make commercial free software
<dneighbo> no it does not imply that to m
<dneighbo> e
<nickr> klog: thecre are two meanings of free which you are mixing up
<dneighbo> HOWEVER in many ways it DOES mean that
<klog> no i understand 'free of charge' and 'free of ownership'
<dneighbo> because if i charge nickr $100 for my software
<dneighbo> he has the right to put it on his web site for free
<klog> opensource being 'free of ownership' as i know it
<dneighbo> in which case people probably will stop giving me $100 for it
<nickr> klog: uh no
<nickr> klog: you are very, very mistaken
<klog> ok then
<klog> i misused term opensource
<nickr> public domain is 'free of ownership' eg, without owner
Action: Chipaca notes this is getting OFF TOPIC
<dneighbo> nickr correct even free software has owners :)
<dneighbo> Chipaca yes
<nickr> free software is 'freedom of usage'
<dneighbo> but if klog is interested in making a contribution or merging software
<drochaid> nickr: is public domain not that the entire public are the owners, rather than no owner?
<klog> then make software free software
<dneighbo> its important we are on same page :)
<jcater> actually, public domain isn't free of ownership
<jcater> but ownership is granted to the public good
<klog> really
<nickr> well its as close to free of ownership as can be had
<klog> i dont fucking care
<drochaid> jcater: roughly what I said
<klog> i want to code
<klog> !
<dneighbo> klog honestly that is an acceptable answer
<jcater> drochaid: sorry, missed your comment
<drochaid> heh
<dneighbo> in fact its the answer many people here have
<jcater> yeah, what drochaid said :)
<Chipaca> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ no flames beynod this line ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<dneighbo> and there isnt anything wrong with it
<nickr> sure.
<Chipaca> :)
<dneighbo> now back to subject
<Chipaca> yeah, schemas and their suckiness
<dneighbo> what were your thoughts klog on interoperating/merging or such?
<Chipaca> :)
<nickr> I don't think they need to buy into all the philosophy as long as they agree to adhere to it in the context of that philosophy
<nickr> imho.
<dneighbo> Chipaca i want more information with what you guys are doing with gnue :)
<dneighbo> so maybe we can help you guys out and in the process get some gnue packages released :)
<dneighbo> nickr correct, just making sure they dont OPPOSE it
<klog> dneigh: tep current status is what is described on the webpage
<Chipaca> ok, we'll try to summarize it and send it to gnue-devel, ok?
<Chipaca> (it's big)
<jcater> sigh
<dneighbo> yes that is fine
<jcater> are the gnu mailing lists down for anyone else?
psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: "[x]chat"
<jcater> ah, they're back!
<dneighbo> klog from the sounds of it we would love to have you work on geas v2
<dneighbo> as it seems this praefectus seems very similar to it
<nickr> i had an interesting idea
<klog> a few things that i believe should be in gnue
<dneighbo> if that isnt what you had in mind certainly you could make our forms engine, reporting engine etc talk to praefectus
<nickr> why not use python syntax to describe schemas and triggers in gaes?
<klog> 1) hierarchy of objects (is there?), 2) trusted security mecanisms
<Chipaca> gnue-dev would be the right list, no? or just plain gnue?
<dneighbo> nickr too languages specific i think xml will be better
<nickr> dneighbo: well, it would simplify a prototype AND it is easy enough to parse that you can impliment it yourself in other languages.
<dneighbo> i think xml is probably easier all around as we have good parser built and such
<nickr> its also not as balky and ugly as xml ;)
<dneighbo> and makes it REALLY easy to use designer
<dneighbo> with MINIMAL hassle
<Chipaca> yes, by all means stick with XML, *please*
<dneighbo> nickr if i didnt forsee a visual tool for object creation, maintenance i would 100% agree with you
<klog> dneigh: all that is xml, should work on making interoperability between gnue and praefectus
<dneighbo> klog im a blunt guy so here is my issue
<klog> and if you plan to use protocol such as soap for distributed objects, than that could be too
<nickr> dneighbo: maybe a thing that transforms something in sort of a psuedopython into xml hehe
<dneighbo> doing two of the same thing but making them interoperate when they are both small is silly to me
<nickr> that'd be easy enough.
<klog> me too but
<dneighbo> i.e. we BOTH woudl get a lot farther doing one project instead of two that interoperate
<klog> i dont wanna drop java
<dneighbo> and any time spent on interoperation
<dneighbo> is time lost to bring products forward
<klog> true
<dneighbo> so its really hard for me to justify spending the time
<dneighbo> i dont mean this rudely
<dneighbo> im just trying to be practical
<klog> no, you're 100% right
<klog> geas = python, right?
<dneighbo> i know that here java is not liked much
<dneighbo> which makes its a real issue
<dneighbo> klog current geas(v1) == C w/ C and python capable object method code
<dneighbo> future geas(v2) == python w/ python capable object method code
<dneighbo> v1 == only CORBA
<klog> why you plan to replace C with python?
<dneighbo> v2 == any RPC (xml-rpc, soap, corba) etc etc
<dneighbo> because we have somethign called gnue-common in python
<dneighbo> that handles rpc abstraction, database abstraction, xml parsing etc
<dneighbo> that is rather tested and advanced
<klog> hum ok
<dneighbo> and coding in python is MUCH more maintainable and quicker
<klog> and is python performance good?
<dneighbo> as good as java's
<dneighbo> no one tries to kid someone that its as fast as C
<klog> wouldnt hurt me learning a new language though ;)
<nickr> butter than java's in my experience.
<dneighbo> but converting python code to C isnt a huge jump
<dneighbo> so if we start seeing bottlenecks
<dneighbo> we convert those pieces to C
<dneighbo> for now maintainablity is more important than speed to us
<dneighbo> (as is for java developers)
<klog> you have experience of treating large amount of data with geasv2?
<dneighbo> as in enterprise development speed of development and maintainability is much higher cost than the speed at which it runs
<dneighbo> we have experience from geasv1
<dneighbo> our gnue-common
<dneighbo> regularly is pulling about 3million records off an OS/390 mainframe running IBM DB2
<nickr> I would think in enterprise development, you could get huge metal
<klog> and is geas object management hierarchy based?
<klog> would you have any interest for that, and strong security?
<klog> really is about seeing where i could help
<klog> hierachy = tons of interesting things it could bring
<klog> authority spaces, common namespace between multiple object servers, etc.
<nickr> I've heard tell that RBAC is desired
<klog> geas could be b2 graded ;)
<klog> tcsec
<nickr> only if the undelying OS is also b2, no?
<klog> probably implied
Action: nickr wonders if gnue runs on VMS
<klog> should see, comparer to trusted oracle
<klog> compared to
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> that's an oxymoron
<jcater> "trusted oracle"
<nickr> 'trusted oracle'
<nickr> hhe
<nickr> yea
<klog> ;)
<klog> trusted oracle (intl version), trusted oracle (us version)
<nickr> Crusted Oracle
<nickr> It'd be nice to have OS-level RBAC
<klog> also want to see if there are possibilities of profitable business to be made on services, training, etc.
<nickr> maybe the Hurd can have that.
<klog> security not meant to be os-level anymore
<nickr> Heh.
<nickr> I'd settle for being able to group 'groups' into other gorups
<nickr> so I coul/d say 'desktop users' all are in group 'audio, video, cdr'
<klog> hierarchy user management
<nickr> indeed
Action: nickr puts it on his hurd todo list.
jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp319327.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<nickr> jeff!
<nickr> oh
<nickr> quit
<nickr> heh
Action: nickr reads more carefully.
<dneighbo> hold up
<dneighbo> two issues
<dneighbo> a. we are interested in security specifically RBAC
<dneighbo> b. we are NOT willing to dicate an OS one needs to run GNUe
<dneighbo> there was a proposal a rather nice one
<dneighbo> about having SELinux do all security from OS level
<dneighbo> but we are not willing to force one to use SE/Linux
<klog> do all security from os level?
<nickr> dneighbo: I wasn't referring to gnue specificly
<klog> selinux is not meant to do security for your application
<jcater> I'm one for "pluggable" everything
<dneighbo> as to hierarchies chilly or reinhard would be best to ask specifics
<jcater> be it "pluggable security", etc
<dneighbo> klog you would have to read stan's proposal
<jcater> hey, I haven't seen sklein in a while
<dneighbo> he is around
<dneighbo> wants marketing material for FOSE
<klog> is selinux even aware of gnue object concepts?
<dneighbo> or whatever that DC based outfit is
<klog> fose
<klog> remembers me smtn
<klog> selinux related?
<dneighbo> klog one of the philophies of gnue is 
<dneighbo> we dont try to impose things
<dneighbo> even security wise
<dneighbo> as while a bank wants rock hard security
<dneighbo> someone in a small shop may not want the hassle
<klog> good philosophy
<klog> pluggable would be a good thing
<klog> pluggable authentication, access control and audit
<Chipaca> ok, sent email to gnue-dev :)
Action: dneighbo does happy dance
<dneighbo> its in spanish right Chipaca 
<dneighbo> ;)
<dneighbo> j/k
<dneighbo> how many on your development team
<dneighbo> klog: as to learning python
<dneighbo> if you know C/C++/Java its hardly called 'learning'
<klog> i fear python
<dneighbo> it almost just comes naturally :)
<klog> i would have prefered C
<klog> cause the day you introduce security
<dneighbo> i think (correct me if im wrong)
<dneighbo> we have had several C die hards in here
<klog> everything changes in terms of performance
<dneighbo> that went to python kicking and screaming
<nickr> I find C programming profoundly satisfying and incredibly detious
<dneighbo> and almost every single one of them hasnt touched C since learning python
<nickr> tedious
<jcater> klog: I'm not sure that's actually an argument for or against python
<jcater> as it'
<dneighbo> as to speed
<dneighbo> so java would be faster?
<klog> nop
<jcater> as it's easy to add functionality to python later on and not affect stability
<dneighbo> and if you went from java to C for security thats nuts
<klog> actually i was thinking about a rewrite
<klog> in C
<dneighbo> C forces you to manage memory and such
<jcater> I would fear, greatly fear, adding features post-mortem to C
<dneighbo> and MUCH more susceptible to buffer overflows and such
<dneighbo> and yes i know the argument that good C programming doesnt have htis issue
<dneighbo> but i like to counter with well bad java/python/etc dont have it
<klog> i mean, with acls that have hierarchical relations, compartments and security clearances to verify, audit trails to emit, it quickly adds up in terms of performance
<dneighbo> and im not gonna bank on every snippet of code being 'good' :)
<dneighbo> certainly
<nickr> nbah
<Chipaca> dneighbo: nope
<Chipaca> dneighbo: erm I mean nope, it's not in spanish
<nickr> procedural languagse are so 1945, get with the times, scheme man!
<dneighbo> but as stated if it gets too slow its easy to move to C parts that need faster
<Chipaca> dneighbo: right now it's 5 of us
<dneighbo> i.e. we think of python as a good prototyping language
<dneighbo> that is suitable for real work as well
<dneighbo> but we arent unwilling to drop to C when performance is an issue
<dneighbo> our analogy is we ahve some C code
<dneighbo> that is slower than same code in python
<dneighbo> because it wasnt coded as optimally
<dneighbo> so just because you choose a faster language doesnt mean faster code :)
<dneighbo> we would rather implement in something that is easy to use and maintain
<dneighbo> and if we find it slow
<dneighbo> profile it
<dneighbo> try to get more optimization
<nickr> the hardest part of python is breaking C habits and structuring it like a python program.
<dneighbo> if its too slow still refactor into C
<dneighbo> so far we havent had to do that
<klog> do you think there is a really opportunity to build businesses around gnue?
<klog> that would provide gnue-related services?
<nickr> probably consulting
<Chipaca> Well we certainly think so :)
<klog> with closed source software, i'm alone
<klog> most likely will never market the software since lack of time and capital
<klog> free software, if there is a possibility to build something real
<klog> with large network of people around it, than i'm in ;)
<nickr> yea
<nickr> nice community
<nickr> very fzzy
<Chipaca> heh
<nickr> fuzzy not fizzy
<nickr> well some of them are fizzy
<nickr> they need to shower more.
Action: Chipaca looks at the ceiling
<nickr> hehe
<nickr> I wonder how the CORBA bindings are for Scheme
<klog> any business people here? with studies in business?
<jamest> i think that's neilt's and dneighbo's focus
<jamest> not mine :)
<klog> ok
<jamest> they are tech people turned managers or something
<jamest> scary :)
<nickr> freak out
<jamest> or is that managers turned tech people
<jamest> hmmmm
<jcater> rofl
<drochaid> <cough> what you saying about us business type peeps? ;P
<nickr> drochaid: they smell like cheap aftershave, thats all I'm saying. Its horrible.
<klog> i turn business too
<klog> finance/commerce
Action: drochaid smacks nickr
<klog> no shame in that, more tech people do this, more intelligent business people
<Chipaca> nickr: you've got it wrong: they smell like *expensive*, cheap-smelling aftershave
<drochaid> lol Chipaca
<nickr> hahaha
<nickr> ye, the MBAs do
<jamest> :)
<drochaid> master of business arseups?
<drochaid> oops .. just changed side ;)
<nickr> better than smelling like coffee and sweat I guess
<nickr> drochaid: exacto
Action: Chipaca wonders if gnue-dev is moderated
<jamest> nothing is moderated
<nickr> where are the gnue lists controlled? I want to subscribe to all of them
<nickr> I don't get enough interesting email
<dneighbo> sorry was gone
Action: Chipaca wonders where his email went, then
<jamest> mail.gnu.org
<dneighbo> typically a software house has following items
<jamest> the fsf mail servers seem to be down
<Chipaca> nickr: subscribe to debian-user
<dneighbo> a. install
<dneighbo> b. training
<dneighbo> c. bug fixes
<nickr> Chipaca: INTERESTING email
<dneighbo> d. feature enhancements
<dneighbo> e. procedural support
<dneighbo> f. consulting
<dneighbo> i think for gnue because its complex there is money to be made in
<dneighbo> a. instaling the software
<nickr> manuals? boxes? support?
<dneighbo> b. in training people
<dneighbo> bug fixes should not hold revenue
<dneighbo> feature enhancements because its free software are going to be less revenue generating
<nickr> I would think gnue would have a big money in 'customization'
<dneighbo> procedurel support lots harder to  get money for
<dneighbo> i think most of the money will be in
<dneighbo> customization(feature enhancement)
<dneighbo> and
<dneighbo> consulting
<dneighbo> but install and training revenues should be there
<klog> sounds good
<dneighbo> i see c adn e falling into the 'support contract'
<dneighbo> so in GNUe scenario
<dneighbo> gnue is free
<dneighbo> but if you want me to install it for you
<dneighbo> it costs X to install
<dneighbo> oh you want to convert your data
<Chipaca> dneighbo: heh, I charge W!
<dneighbo> we do that at a fee of X per hour
<dneighbo> now if you want someone to call for support, procedure issues, bug fixes
<dneighbo> we offer a year long contract for X
<jcater> of course, to stay on the community's good side, we'd expect some code contributions back into our project if you're gonna profit off of our hard work
<jcater> :)
<jcater> just a minor observation
<dneighbo> i.e. i dont think the SAPs ORACLEs etc are making thier bank on licensing fees alone
<dneighbo> example we bought a package recently
<dneighbo> the licensing was 125,000
<klog> jcater: i think it should not be minor, but unfortunately hard to enforce
<dneighbo> but they paid 240,000 for consulting, training and implementation
<dneighbo> and we pay 25k per year for support/upgrades
<drochaid> jcater: and for those of us who profit from your work but have no coding skill whatsoever?
<jcater> donuts
<drochaid> lol
<klog> porn
<drochaid> and I'm guessing pizza for dneighbo ;)
<dneighbo> klog we are food addicts not sex addicts
<dneighbo> dots, pizza, donuts etc
<dneighbo> will do fine
<nickr> I'd settle for one of those trips into low earth orbit
<dneighbo> klog long of short of it
Action: Chipaca works for hardware
<klog> dneigh: guess we could distribute "license" profit on services profit
<dneighbo> i think companies that rally around gnue (or any project)
<klog> indirectly
<dneighbo> burden the development cost
<klog> to pay for development
<dneighbo> negating the fact that you dont charge for licensing
<dneighbo> the ones that are good consultants and treat customers right will do just fine
<dneighbo> imho
<dneighbo> i wouldnt expect a free software consultant using gnue to be a millionaire
<dneighbo> but i would suspect one day they could live comfortably
<klog> all that sounds good
<klog> i'll take a better look into gnue
<drochaid> dneighbo: I think you undervalue the potential for a product such as GNUe
<klog> consulting cannot bring you millionaire
<dneighbo> no im just a socialist :)
<drochaid> I think the only limitation is the continued developement it requires
<drochaid> klog: it most certainly can
<klog> dr: how?
<drochaid> It may not be easy, but it is possible
<klog> on your own work?
<nickr> dneighbo: your social group can be a millionaire as a community and all live comfortably
<dneighbo> um how is it nickr you say chipcas mail but i havent?
<dneighbo> rofl
<drochaid> klog: IBM charged me out at around £850 a day ... and that was really basic stuff
<klog> ibm...
<drochaid> that was for the standard 7 1/2 hr day
<klog> unless we organise real good
<drochaid> I normally worked upto 14hrs a day
<klog> we must
<drochaid> regularly 23hrs
<klog> ibm has image
Action: Chipaca looks in a mirror
<Chipaca> I have image, too
<drochaid> the possibility is there, whether or not the clients willing to pay what's needed can be found in sufficient supply is another matter
Action: drochaid has no image .. damned vampire disease :/
Action: Chipaca hands drochaid a blessed spell of vampire vanquish
<nickr> mmm, blood of the innocent
<drochaid> heh
<drochaid> IBM bled me dry and turned me into one of them ;)
<nickr> thats cool
Action: drochaid thinks he's just been added to a dozen /ignore lists
<nickr> actually that explains a lot about IBM...
<jcater> ****************************************
<jcater> Great news!
<jcater> We've removed a dependency... PyXML is no
<jcater> longer required. We can use Python 2.0+'s
<jcater> built-in support now.
<jcater> *****************************************
<dneighbo> really
<dneighbo> who did that?
<jamest> jcater did
<jcater> me
<jamest> isn't he the bomb
<drochaid> that means nothing to me .. is that good news? :)
<dneighbo> um with arturas improvements?
<jamest> lets hear it for jcater!
Action: Chipaca dances a jig
Action: dneighbo fears this rendered all arturas work as dead
<jcater> dneighbo: independent of arturas' stuff
<dneighbo> sigh
<jcater> no, didn't kill his stuff
<dneighbo> ok cool
<jcater> ok, you may return to your regularly scheduled trout-slapping now
Action: nickr gives jcater a crappie across the jaw.
<jamest> um
<jamest> wait a minute
Action: Chipaca waits
<jamest> isn't the sign of kwalitee koding an increase in the number of lines of code and dependencies
Action: Chipaca shudders
<nickr> yes.
<nickr> clearly you are working if the LoC are going up
<nickr> and its good code reuse if you add dependencies
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<drochaid> feasgar math psu
<psu> i'm still convinced that's gaelic for "Your mother wears army shoes" ;-)
<psu> how's thingz?
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> I'm good ta
<drochaid> no arguments yet tonight :)
<drochaid> and your fine self?
<dneighbo> Chipaca how did you get your handle
<psu> musn't grumble
<dneighbo> i get an email from 'John Lenton' and that just seems too mundane
<nickr> psu: I would think it'd be a good deal ruder than that
<dneighbo> for a handle like Chipaca :)
<dneighbo> um Chipaca you want DCL 
<dneighbo> as it will be invoicing for services
<dneighbo> to start with
<dneighbo> in 2 tier model
<dneighbo> or at least i think it will be
<dneighbo> cool mail :)
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<Chipaca> dcl?
<Chipaca> oh double chocolate
<Chipaca> 'Chipaca' is a long story :)
<Chipaca> we can't tell yet if we go 2-tier, will we be able to go full geas once it's ready?
<dneighbo> DCL = Dang Chipaca Latino
<dneighbo> j/k
<dneighbo> yeah double chocolate
<dneighbo> Chipaca we are thinking we will provide and 'upgrade' path
<Chipaca> muthafucka
<dneighbo> we hava chiuaha (sp) whose name is Gorda Chica so first time you logged in a i had to do a double take :)
Nick change: Chipaca -> GordaChica
<StyXman> Chipaca is what Gorda Chica eats to get fat
<GordaChica> yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap
Nick change: GordaChica -> Chipaca
<dneighbo> rofl
<Chipaca> isn't DCL only for projects?
<dneighbo> work orders / help desks
<dneighbo> but a 'work order' could be ANY service
<dneighbo> example you could run a plumbing company on it
<Chipaca> ah
<dneighbo> every 'service call' is a 'work order'
<dneighbo> infact you can easily rename in the system to have them be 'service calls'
<dneighbo> instead of work orders
<Chipaca> scalability
<Chipaca> :/
<Chipaca> shmalability
<dneighbo> you a gabriel perez fan or something?
<jamest> l8r
reinhard (rm@62.47.45.104) left irc: "There are two types of people: those who divide people into two types, and those who don't"
jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise.
Action: dneighbo really wants to hear where this chipaca comes from
<dneighbo> hey now that we have south american's in gnue
<dneighbo> please tell me you all like futbol
<StyXman> actually, thre to five.
<yogurt2unge> no futbol no.....
<dneighbo> but then tell me you dont like diego maradonna :)
<Chipaca> !lart dneighbo 
<StyXman> you hit me.
<dneighbo> ?
<drochaid> football, poo yucky ;)
<StyXman> chip, ain't it ~lart?
<Chipaca> StyXman: not of old it wasn't, ! are commands for the dpkg bot
<StyXman> ~lart Chipaca 
<dneighbo> you know you like brazilian futbol more
<dneighbo> you just dont want to admit it
Action: dneighbo runs
<yogurt2unge> I liked Diego, but now don't play, he is history
<StyXman> dneighbo: you stinking... 
Action: dneighbo needs other futbol fans to discuss futbol with
<dneighbo> in america only kids like futbol :(
Action: Chipaca suggests /j #fútbol
<StyXman> here even kids like it.
<dneighbo> or if they are grown ups they only like mexican league (barf) or yank futbol like Manchester United, Leeds etc (double barf)
<StyXman> yeach.
<StyXman> I loev our futbol, and even european. italy, spain.
<StyXman> great leages
<dneighbo> i likek spanish league a lot
<dneighbo> italy too
<StyXman> yeah, we teach them :)
<StyXman> lots of argies in those.
<dneighbo> i used to like netherlands league (ajax) when ruud guillet was around
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<yogurt2unge> dneighbo: What's the problem with Manchester United?
<StyXman> yeah, the naranja mecanica
<dneighbo> but its too hard all i get here in arizona (just north of mexico) is mexican league :(
Action: Chipaca streams Olé to dneighbo out of compassion
<dneighbo> yogurt2unge only girls play for MU, i think the US Womens Team might be able to beat them.
<dneighbo> most fun team to watch last season was Real Madrid
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Action: Chipaca notes the boss just came in, so we should all pretend we're working
<dneighbo> definitely we should start a #futbol here :)
<yogurt2unge> dneighbo: in Manchester United of UK play Veron from Argentina
<dneighbo> so you all can keep me up to speed
<StyXman> no, he's strill trying to realize how chat works :)
<Chipaca> rotfl
<psu> just tell him "Manchester United is the name of this python module we found"
<psu> "it looks really useful"
<dneighbo> plus you can get me more fluent in spanish
<Chipaca> import Manchester.United
<dneighbo> rofl
<StyXman> import Verom from Manchester.United
<Chipaca> Manchester.United.girls()
<dneighbo> roflmao
Action: perlhead notes nobody is doing a very good job of pretending
<psu> transfer Beckam < Man Utd > Sunderland
<psu> we need the goals
<psu> SuperKev isn't scoring this season
<StyXman> we don't pretend, we *are*
<psu> actually, I have my UNIX redirects wrong
<psu> i suspect
<psu> oh, and I found the article I was meant to be patching 
<psu> LXR is a wonderous friend
<dneighbo> lxr is broked :(
<dneighbo> we need to fix that
<dneighbo> hey jcater i FINALLY got your report email
<jcater> I just resent it :(
<dneighbo> what you using carrier pigions now a days or what?
<psu> it still works if you want files that haven;t changed a year ;-)
<jcater> i think gnu lost it
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<dneighbo> you stole my thunder
<dneighbo> reading your mail about half way through im thinking why not namespaces :)
<dneighbo> you may have lost me on the formatting eninge
<dneighbo> i think i would still see it as xslt
<dneighbo> just the sytlesheet would be inline and would work with streams rather than files
<dneighbo> my hope is we start simple
<dneighbo> with file in file out external
<dneighbo> get serveral formats supported
<dneighbo> then move it to stream in file out
<dneighbo> then to stream in stream out 
<Chipaca> dneighbo: same here!
<dneighbo> i will reply formally but upfront other than the 'formatting' stuff
<dneighbo> i agree
<Chipaca> I mean reading the mail and half way through saying 'namespaces, you foo', only carry on reading ...
<dneighbo> i think i agree with the formatting stuff too but want mroe details :)
<jcater> well
<jcater> the point of the "formatting engine"
<jcater> was options that this would allow
<jcater> IN THE FUTURE
<jcater> :)
<jcater> i.e., going this route would leave room for other formatting options
<jcater> besides using external XSLT scripts
<jcater> not that I wanted to pursue this at that time
<jcater> err, pursue that at this time
<jcater> the next set of emails from me will
<jcater> address what we actually want the output xml stream to look like
<jcater> I looked at datavision.sf.net
<jcater> and it has some merit
<jcater> but isn't exactly what I was envisioning
<jcater> i.e., I think it hardcodes positioning in the report definition
<jcater> which complicates a lot of my goals
<dneighbo> on that note are you against making internal XSLT?
<jcater> ?
<jcater> I don't follow
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<dneighbo> well you say leave room for other formatting optoins besides EXTERNAL XSLT scripts
<jcater> you mean have the reports engine apply the XSLT?
<dneighbo> i see external as only temporary
<dneighbo> utnil we prove it
<jcater> no, I'm not against internal XSLT
<jcater> but I would write that as pluggable
<dneighbo> then the transformation would happen in the internal transformation engine
<dneighbo> correct
<jcater> (with the default plug being the XSLT transformer)
<dneighbo> i see the first being xslt as its most bang for buck
<Chipaca> umm
<jcater> that what you mean?
<dneighbo> kind of like what wxWindows is for gui
<Chipaca> I'm going to show off my ignorance here for a while
<dneighbo> not only one but best bang for buck
<dneighbo> if that makes sense
<Chipaca> what work would be necessary to get a thing that plugs into reports and generates a gtk frontend from whatever it (reports) hands it (the frontend) ?
<jcater> not much
<jcater> that's being factored into the exposed RPC interface
<Chipaca> is that what the wxwindows thing does?
<jcater> yes
Action: Chipaca isn't AT ALL hazy
<jcater> wxwindows provides a layer over GTK
<Chipaca> :0
<jcater> as well as the same layer over Win32
<jcater> (and soon Mac OS and OS/2)
<Chipaca> no, I mean does the wxwindows frontend plugin to reports, or did i get that wrong?
<jamest> mac os X works today
<jamest> we've got screenshots on the site of forms running there
<jcater> there are no frontend plugins for reports as of yet
<Chipaca> when you say RPC you mean XMLRPC, right?
<jcater> except a preliminary command line interface
<jcater> Chipaca: xmlrpc, soap, corba, etc
<jcater> but xmlrpc will be the first supported
<Chipaca> whew
<jcater> I imagine
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Action: Chipaca was mixed up on reports, forms, designer, and foo :(
<dneighbo> jcater wont gnome print solve all our problems ;)
Action: Chipaca was set straight by yogurt2unge 
<jcater> dneighbo: um, sure
<jcater> but I like kprinter
<jcater> ;)
<Chipaca> jcater: obviously in the output stream all the namespace thing will be removed, right?
<jcater> yes
<Chipaca> I mean <output:foo/> will become <foo/>
<jcater> and only the tags denoted w/ <output:...> would appear
<jcater> without the output: part
<jcater> btw, those <output:..> tags would be standardized
<Chipaca> you mean the only tags that would appear are the ... , right?
<jcater> we haven't discussed what that standard would be yet
<jcater> yes
<Chipaca> please, pretty please make them look like the ones from forms 
<dtm> hi all
<Chipaca> in fact if possible validate against the same DTDs
Action: dtm makes the rounds with the trouts
Action: Chipaca notes a piranha would be more appropriate
Action: dtm holds out a trout, jogging round the room, holding it out for each willing occupant's face
Action: jcater ducks prior to an encounter with dtm
<dtm> trouts are getting a little bit disgusting though.  and chillywilly keeps em laying out all night  :(
<Chipaca> *that* was the smell! I thought it was me
<dneighbo> nuttin beats a good crappie ;)
<dtm> hey guys, i launched my company web site  http://ambassadorcommunicationservices.com
<dtm> yesterday
<dtm> GO SEE IT.
Action: dtm points at the url
<dtm> i take all manners of constructive feedback! 
<dtm> pronto!
<jcater> dtm: you give discounts?
<jcater> ;)
<Chipaca> dtm: change your url. It's untypable. Probability of error is 0.98
<klog> :))
<dneighbo> dtm: the url is too long
<dneighbo> ambassadorcs.com
<dneighbo> or soemthing would be easier
<dneighbo> or
<dneighbo> acs-inc.com
<dneighbo> i mean keep the full name as well
<Chipaca> mbasdrsvc?
<dneighbo> but i would look for somethign more to the point for marketing reasons
<dtm> since you guys are incapable of typing _ENGLISH_, you'll surely need our services!
<dtm> yeah i already registered the only other relevant .com-based domain name i can find.  ambcomm.com.  it'll be up today.
<drochaid> type??
<drochaid> I thought that's what copy/paste is for
<dneighbo> dtm much better
<dtm> drochaid: heheh yeah or _gasp_   addressbooks and bookmarks!
<drochaid> lol
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<drochaid> I'd ask what your company does dtm .. but I just read the header on the site ;)
<dtm> there's almost nothing people like to criticize more than a long domain name, even if it's the easiest to remember.  So now that we've gotten that obvious out of the way.... !
<dtm> drochaid: oh well that's a good idea, so i dont have to paste the site's content right back into the channel :)
<jamest> i like to critize dneighbo more than long domain names
<dtm> jamest: touche`
<jamest> long domain named don't find bugs in my perfect code
<jamest> or typos :)
<drochaid> if I'm in the right mood, I'm criticise anything
<drochaid> and on that note ...
<drochaid> dtm: the kerning in the font you used for your header graphic is terrible ;)
<dtm> hehehe!
<dtm> drochaid: kerning?!  :)
<dtm> drochaid: does that mean the space between each char?
<drochaid> indeed it does
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<dneighbo> typos?
<dneighbo> you are admitting they are typos
Action: dneighbo is used to hearing 'well if we would just use the kansas spelling'
<dtm> dneighbo: huh?  :)  what's this kansas spelling? :)
<jamest> itz the propr whey to spel things
<dtm> s;lkfahds
<jamest> onlee U peepole won't not get wif the programe
<dtm> lol
<dtm> i mean    loOOL
<dtm> eyes  gunt take thar dawg outside an for a pottey walk.
<dtm> iffin y'alls excuses me....
<dtm> bee are bee
<jamest> lateher
<dtm> keep the feedback a'comin
<drochaid> jamest: aye, i ken wit yer sa'in
<jamest> :)
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<StyXman> ok, another day o' work fades out.
<StyXman> see you all 2morrow
<StyXman> bye
<drochaid> cya
<jamest> l8r
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<drochaid> hmmm .. I really should find a way to assist GNUe rather than sitting here making cracks at people
<Chipaca> drochaid: no, you shouldn't
<drochaid> lol
<Chipaca> ok, eyes are heavy ... must .. shut .. down .. cleanly
Action: Chipaca waves
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<drochaid> well, you shouldn't have unplugged the machine before powering down then :P
<jcater> oooo
<jcater> I missed this
<jcater> <Chipaca> please, pretty please make them look like the ones from forms
<jcater> <Chipaca> in fact if possible validate against the same DTDs
<jcater> I'm not so sure about that
<jcater> the datasources, et al will of course use the same markup
<jcater> and I could see us creating a Designer wizard that basically
<jcater> asks for a Forms definition
<jcater> and creates a report based on the forms definition
<jcater> but I'm not sure reports should be defined the same as forms
<jcater> any thought?
<jcater> s?
<jamest> i don't think they could be the same
<jamest> as i know i need grouping of fields
<jamest> which doesn't make sense in forms
<drochaid> my thoughts after reading that have moved to the Mycerinus project for some reason ... so I'll keep quiet and go talk to my budgie
<jcater> Mycerinus?
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<jcater> Egyption art studies?
Action: dtm returns
<dtm> drochaid: what's a budgie?
<drochaid> small aussie parakeet
<jcater> does [s]he talk back?
<drochaid> depends what sort of mood he's in
<drochaid> he's much more cage bound and timerous than my last one
<dneighbo> jamest i agree
<dneighbo> and jcater agree
<dneighbo> i see them as similiar but not necessarily identical
<drochaid> oops, missed that
<drochaid> jcater: mycerinus is the project code for the annual reports db I'm working on
<jcater> ah
<jcater> almost sounds like fun
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> now say something you mean ;)
<jcater> I did
<jcater> hence the *almost* :)
<drochaid> heh
<nickr> at least it has a cool name
<drochaid> lol
<dneighbo> must run bbl
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<drochaid> I also have projects coded as seneferu, cheops and chephren
<drochaid> promachos
<drochaid> aristophanes
<drochaid> and [my all time favourite .. release name, not code :D] IT Integrated WinTel Services :D
<nickr> you shouldn't waste all your good codenames on projects
<nickr> you should use them for computers
<jcater> nah
<jcater> I'd save them for budgies
<jcater> "Come here, promachos.  That's a good budgie"
<jcater> "Can you say drochaid is da bomb?"
<drochaid> lol
<jcater> "That's a good budgie"
<nickr> budgies don't talk much in my experience.
<drochaid> he called my finger a woose a couple of days ago :((
<drochaid> nickr: you should have met my last budgie
<drochaid> and I use Munro names for my computers :)
<jcater> well, all this talk of budgies has made me hungry
<nickr> none of the budgies I ever had spoke
<jcater> so I'm going home to eat
<nickr> my cockatiels spoke thoigh
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<drochaid> jcater: well the name does come from the aboriginal meaning 'good to eat' ;)
<nickr> Munro?
<drochaid> doh!!
<drochaid> a Munro is a Scottish Mountain with a summit over 3000ft above sea level
<nickr> all your computers have the same name?
<drochaid> no, they have names OF Munros ;P
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<nickr> oh, its a CLASS of mountains
<nickr> I thought it was one in pairtucalr
<drochaid> nup, any mountain over 3000ft and in scotland is a munro
<drochaid> Ben Nevis
<drochaid> Ben Lomond
<drochaid> Ben Vorlich
<drochaid> Ben MacDui
<drochaid> The Cobbler
<drochaid> etc
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<drochaid> mm, probs crazymike?
<nickr> funky
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<jcater> yeah I know it was a tough 15 minutes
<jcater> but I'm back
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<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> wb jcater
<drochaid> <-- jcater has quit ("home")
<drochaid> <drochaid> jcater: well the name does come from the aboriginal meaning 'good to eat' ;)
<drochaid> <nickr> Munro?
<drochaid> <drochaid> doh!!
<jcater> :)
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<drochaid> hey chillywilly
<chillywilly> sup nigga
<drochaid> not much, no OT arguments tonight :)
<drochaid> how you?
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<chillywilly> what do you think I am?
<chillywilly> the OT argument king?
<dtm> chillywilly: #@*)#
<dtm> chillywilly: hahah#()
<dtm> WERD UP, WIGGER
<dtm> chickletwilliam:  did you notice my new site, http://ambassadorcommunicationservices.com ?
<drochaid> lol chillywilly
<drochaid> I didn't mean with you dood
<nickr> werd
<nickr> dtm: you still pimpin your site?
<nickr> dtm: sheez
<dtm> y34h
<dtm> nickr: coz I ...   GOTS TO, MISTER!!
<nickr> dtm: well shit negro, why didn't you say so?
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> lets get high and have some fun.
<dtm> nickr: shooooooo...THA'S ALL YOU HADDA SAY!!
<dtm> nickr: no thanks!
<dtm> i dont like fun.
<nickr> haha
<dtm> well it's just that i already had all my fun
<dtm> so im all done now.
<dtm> now i'm just self toxic!
<nickr> heh
<nickr> thats a little wrong
<dtm> hey wait.  maybe _that is_ my new fun!
<dtm> )*@#
<nickr> haha
<chillywilly> I gots the thing to turn that frown upside down
<chillywilly> we call them
<chillywilly> doobie snacks
<nickr> hrm
<nickr> that sounds .. weedy
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<chillywilly> it's from jsbsb
<nickr> well fuck man
<nickr> you havn't hooked me up yet, so I have no idea
<chillywilly> of course it is about weed
<chillywilly> mail me a blank CD
<chillywilly> I'll burn it for you
<chillywilly> ;)
<nickr> cheapass
<nickr> okay, remind me in 3 weeks
<chillywilly> danielb@obfuscation:~$ ls -l /cdrom/    
<chillywilly> total 711129
<chillywilly> -r-xr-xr-x    1 root     root     199056896 Nov 26 14:38 Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back (Part 1 of2).avi*
<chillywilly> -r-xr-xr-x    1 root     root     196382720 Nov 27 17:26 Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back (Part 2 of2).avi*
<chillywilly> -r-xr-xr-x    1 root     root     178393600 Nov 30 04:57 The Crow (Part 1 of 2).avi*
<chillywilly> -r-xr-xr-x    1 root     root     154362880 Nov 30 07:30 The Crow (Part 2 of 2).avi*
<chillywilly> I gots the hook up
<nickr> SWEET
<nickr> hehhe
<jcater> you're not promoting copyright infringement in our logged channel, are you?
<nickr> jcater: never.
<jcater> ok
<jcater> in that case
<chillywilly> pluh-lz
<jcater> carry on
<jcater> in gnue-warez that is
<chillywilly> well you know if they woulod actually release movies to the public sooner
<chillywilly> then there would be no boot leg copies
<chillywilly> nick-a
<chillywilly> heheh
<nickr> bootleg copies? you mean you aren't going to legally transfer your licnese to me? I've been misled! its a sting!
<chillywilly> uh, you finna go to da big hizous
<dtm> chillywilly: please do NOT send a cd-r of that movie to the address listed on my web site.
<chillywilly> ok ;)
<dtm> chillywilly: as that would be against the licensor's wishes.
<chillywilly> why don't I just ask kevin smith
<dtm> and we would of course be finna goto da big hizzowse
<chillywilly> I'm sure he'd say "yea man go right ahead"
<dtm> hence.
<dtm> chillywilly: oh ok well in that case, send it!
<dtm> i'll axe him later.
<dtm> but since you know him and all..
<chillywilly> aight
<chillywilly> where do you think I got the bootleg copy from?
<dtm> yeah and this channel is publicly logged, so i'm glad we cleared that up.
<dtm> chillywilly: :-o
<chillywilly> I gots it from kevin smith himself
<dtm> shoooooo'
<nickr> sho nuf
<dtm> FROM HE, HISSELF?!
<chillywilly> he's my homie
<chillywilly> my nick-a
<dtm> h00
<chillywilly> we tight
Action: dtm gits da pepsi
<chillywilly> mmmm
<chillywilly> pepsi
<chillywilly> to hell with coke
<nickr> mmm sweet caffiene
<nickr> I'm tired of black death
<dtm> yeah coke can die and it can go to hell!
<dtm> unless it's on sale.
<nickr> yea
Action: chillywilly will get him some code red mountain dew
<dtm> which it is at Long's Drugs, $5 for 4 of em but geez, that's 4 2-liters
<nickr> thats a whole 'nother siteashun
<dtm> i guess i oughtta do it anyway
<dtm> nickr: hehehe
<chillywilly> no!
<chillywilly> coke is not even worth the sale price
<dtm> but stil i'ts only the coke products.  coke and sprite is all i could get.
<dtm> chillywilly: :-o
<nickr> 4 2 lituer,s that'd almost take care of my caffiene addiction..
<dtm> chillywilly: sounds like you gots y'alls some convinctions n shit
<nickr> I think I'll iwthdraw over the next few days
<dtm> s/convinctions/convictions/
<dtm> nickr: how long would 8 liters handle ya?
<chillywilly> nah, I'm only playin'
<chillywilly> I don't be trippin' on coke that much
<dtm> chillywilly: INFUSE US WITH THE WISDOM OF THE ANTI-COKE!!
<nickr> dtm: 4 days
<dtm> nickr: ok
<dtm> nickr: i'd prolly do 1/2 liter per day
<nickr> But I'm not going to have any caffiene until next week.
<chillywilly> I can drink the water down fast food coke
<dtm> nickr: unless i'm seriously guzzling
<chillywilly> or cherry coke
<nickr> mm cherry
<chillywilly> but the regular coke lick balls yo
<dtm> i used to get cherry coke coz my brother really liked it
<chillywilly> er, licks
<dtm> and i like cherry 7up
<dtm> #@*&%
<chillywilly> snoochie boochie
<dtm> dewd, Kansas has a new album out.
<dtm> it has all the original players, recorded in Kerry Livgren's studio in Topeka
<chillywilly> kewl
<dtm> is that bad ass or what
<dtm> answer:  yes, that's quite bad ass
<chillywilly> that's pretty bad ass
<dtm> chillywilly: you got it!
<nickr> Kansas!?
<nickr> gar!
<chillywilly> dduuuust iiin theeee wiiiind
<dtm> every time i've seen em has been in Kansas so they had Kerry with em
<dtm> i even saw em right near their home town once
<dtm> and another time right before a kansas concert, i had my hair cut in Topeka by a lady who went to high school with em when they were called White Clover and they played in her high school gym
<nickr> I wish I had some orange juice.
Action: chillywilly can name only one kansas song ;)
<dtm> like at the prom and stuff
Action: nickr hasn't been into rocknroll lately.
<dtm> she axed what we were visiting Topeka for and she told us about it
<dtm> that was cool
<chillywilly> and you say gar to kansas?
<dtm> nickr: bastage!!
<dtm> KILL
<dtm> THE
<chillywilly> nickr: what you been listin to?
<dtm> HERETIC
<nickr> gar is a negitive thing
<nickr> GAR!!
<chillywilly> duh
<nickr> chillywilly: rave mostly
<nickr> lately
Action: dtm listens to progrock.com which frequently airs the masters:  kansas, rush, and dream theater
<chillywilly> blah
<dtm> channel wide notice:  KANSAS IS THE SHIT
<dtm> that is all.
<chillywilly> rush rocks
<nickr> rush is sweet
<dtm> i saw rush once
<dtm> and i have a bootlegged video
<dtm> from San Jose
<dtm> i saw rush in kansas!@
<dtm> heheh
<chillywilly> you got it in digital format yo?
<dtm> and i saw White Zombie and Pantera there
<dtm> nosir
<dtm> vhs
<dtm> very very expensive vhs
<dtm> i'm trying to get my digibatizer working thogh
<dtm> the driver is bust.
<chillywilly> sheeet
<dtm> fucking pantera rules.
<dtm> @#(_Kl;sk(@)_!+
<chillywilly> why you trippin'?
<chillywilly> damn skippy
<nickr> dtm: send it to me, i'll rip and strip it for you
<dtm> nickr: ok
<dtm> we shall see  :>
Action: chillywilly plays some pantera mp3s
<nickr> once I move in 3 weeks. Nothing happens till then
<nickr> I'm null and void until then
<chillywilly> cemetery gates
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<chillywilly> r0x0rz
<chillywilly> derek: sup foo?
<derek> sup
<nickr> derek: yo yo
<derek> you know something
<chillywilly> what?
<derek> apt-get install just doesnt work so well on rh 6.2
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> true dat
<chillywilly> you knwo I think Pantera's rendition of planet caravan is fucking kick ass
<jcater> derek: I have a CD that will remedy that problem
<nickr> hrm
<derek> yeah i have a few of them
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> the original email I send to gnue-dev yesterday
<jcater> finally arrived 
<derek> i see that
<derek> just so impatient are you young jedi
<jcater> well, ya know
<jcater> 24 hrs
<jcater> and I give up :)
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<neilt> hello all
<derek> hi
<derek> neilt: seems we have 5 new geas developers
<neilt> cool
<neilt> i saw
<neilt> derek: i have a question if you have a sec
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<derek> sigh new python, still same bug:
<derek> - StringIO's attitude to unicode strings has been reverted to that of
<derek>   the 2.1.x branch (note cStringIO still knows nothing about unicode).
<derek> fire away neilt
<derek> neilt: you might find this interesting http://isg.ee.ethz.ch/tools/gedafe/
<jcater> that looks like a fix!?!?
<dtm> chillywilly: yeah and their Planet Caravan video is awesome.  it's 3d rendered.
<neilt> sorry back
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<neilt> derek:  i looked at http://isg.ee.ethz.ch/tools/gedafe/, I am not real hot about running everything through the DB, with perl and http.
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<dtm> crazymike: werd
<crazymike> waz up niggie???
<dtm> whur't
Action: dtm high fives and slams chests with crazymike
Action: crazymike does the gangsta handshake w/ dtm
<dtm> lol
<dtm> wussup
<dtm> Wash up, knee grow.
<crazymike> "<dtm> Wash up, knee grow." lol
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<dtm> haha
<dtm> i'm a phonetic fewl with wordplay on muh mind
Action: drochaid looks at dtm with concern
<jcater> sklein rocks
<drochaid> quartz rocks
<jcater> no, dude, stan rocks
<drochaid> granite rocks
<drochaid> sandstone rocks
<drochaid> :)
<jcater> for those not on the gnue@gnu.org mailing list:
<jcater> http://mail.gnu.org/pipermail/gnue/2002-March/003050.html
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<nickr> Huh,, nice.
<nickr> Its weird how ones connections to thinks is occationally cycilcal
<nickr> one of my good friends hands out with the novaggeeks
Action: drochaid peeks
Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<chillywilly> where'd my bizitch go?
<drochaid> I'm still
<drochaid> here
<drochaid> just popping off to bed trho
<drochaid> night all
<chillywilly> you ain't my biotch
<drochaid> that's not what you said earlier :(
<chillywilly> crazymike be the fewl I am talking about
<drochaid> oh I see, so I'm not good enough anymore?
<chillywilly> I don't hardly even know you
<chillywilly> I see crazymike every day at work
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> I'm off
<drochaid> cya
<chillywilly> bye
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<chillywilly> woah
<chillywilly> jeff!
<chillywilly> you married yet?
<chillywilly> ;)
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<chillywilly> hey does anyone know what mozilla is relicensing to?
<chillywilly> GPL?
<jcater> MS EULA
<chillywilly> heh, I dun think so d00d
<jcater> BSD?
<chillywilly> if you don't know then I see no point in sitting here and trying to guess ;)
Action: chillywilly wields trout
<nickr> man, the netwinder rawks
<nickr> I wish I had the desktop version though
<nickr> or at least a s-leek cover for it
<chillywilly> can I commit something in gnue/docbook/Proposals ?
<chillywilly> lemme rephrase that ;)
<chillywilly> I am going to commit somehting
<chillywilly> and there's nothing you can do about it
<chillywilly> j/k ;)
<nickr> you should be committed
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> chillywilly + proposal + commits = scary??
<jcater> does that balance?
<jcater> yes!
<jcater> I think it does
<jcater> well, actually that should be
<jcater> chillywilly + proposal + commits = 3*scary
<jcater> as chillywilly = scary
<jcater> and proposal = scary
<jcater> and commits = scary
<chillywilly> lol
Action: chillywilly looks for stan's email
<derek> im looking too
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> no one ever comments on my emails :(
<chillywilly> bah, tony ws there too spewing his BS ;)
<chillywilly> FOSE that is
<chillywilly> er, was also there ;P
<jcater> did they get X-Spam-Status = 16 ?
<chillywilly> uh?
<jcater> um
<jcater> gnue-common is marked as 
<jcater> Section: interpreters
<jcater> in apt
<jcater> is that right?
<chillywilly> lemme see
<chillywilly> yes
<jcater> that's right?
<chillywilly> that's what I have
<jcater> why would gnue-common be an interpreter?
Action: chillywilly did a dpkg -s gnue-common
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> because it uses python?
<chillywilly> (stupid reason)
<derek> not sure
<derek> our debian stuff needs a LOT of work
<derek> better debconf stuff
<derek> and get it working
<derek> and do apache style packaging
<derek> as well as good descriptions, keywords etc :)
<nickr> no
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> our packages blow
<derek> chillywilly: i wont say that
<nickr> I don't think the debian maintainer of the packages knows what he's doing
<derek> as i SO greatful someone has started the work
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> I will
<chillywilly> sure, it's better than nothing
<derek> that im not going to say it blows it just needs work
<chillywilly> ok, fine
<chillywilly> they "need work"
<nickr> I suggest filing bugs, lots of them
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> hehe
<nickr> acurate bugs
<chillywilly> good idea nickr
<jcater> do you file bugs at debian.org, or what?
<chillywilly> afaik, bugs.debian.org
<nickr> they are official packages, you send a well structured mail to submit@bugs.debian.org
<nickr> read the website bugs.debian.org I think to figure out the format
<derek> a few things
<chillywilly> what si this crap?
<derek> a. yes file bugs
<chillywilly> s/si/is
<derek> but
<derek> b. we need to get the source of the packages in our tree and learn how they work 
<nickr> I suggest convinicing the maintainter to be more closely in chouch with you
<derek> c. re really need someone highly involved in the project (um jbailey) to help us in a pinch and maybe stand up as the 'maintainer'
<derek> as maurizo does out of kindness
<chillywilly> we are getting this I have a rich client/uncle/whatever that needs your help in getting his money type spam now
<jbailey> blue?
<jbailey> Oh, hey'all!
<derek> jbailey: jamest wants to make the packages in that color too, but i say red is bettter and more 'debianish'
<nickr> hey jeff
<derek> btw: you get hitched yet?
<derek> if so congratulations
<jbailey> Yeah, on the 9th.
<derek> rock
<chillywilly> woooo!
<jbailey> Pictures should be available soon.  I'm buying a scanner tommorow.
<chillywilly> congrats jeff!
<jbailey> Thanks. =)
<derek> now we know you will be in here a LOT more :)
<chillywilly> lol
<jcater> :)
<derek> at least in 6 months or so
<chillywilly> you guys are nad
<chillywilly> er, bad
<jbailey> Well.  I start a full time job soon, so I might even have evenings free. =)
Action: derek seems to recall a while back something to the effect off
<derek> 'i need to go, before i get locked out of the bedroom again'
<jbailey> *lol*
<derek> so dont tell me you dont know what we are talking about chilly :)
<jbailey> See?  I won't have that problem.  We're in a one room appartment. =)
<nickr> la
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<derek> jcater: that was pretty cool of sklien
<jcater> yes it was
<derek> i thought it was next week
<jcater> well, it is east coast
<derek> and started to box up the fliers we had left to send to him (but have been too swamped)
<jcater> so there's a time difference
<derek> rofl
<jcater> I can see how you odd-ball AZ ppl can get confused
<derek> we definitely need to work on 3 or 4 marketing items
<derek> like business card template
<derek> tri fold pamplet
<derek> postcard mailer
<derek> and 1 page spec sheet kind of thing
<derek> and get in cvs
<jbailey> derek: So what is it that you want?  Working debian packages?
<jbailey> =)
<derek> so people can just co from CVS and email to print shop and pick up at the event :)
<jcater> well, I could easily do some stuff
<jcater> but it'd be in Quark :)
Action: jcater is trying to work w/free tools
<nickr> I could try osome stuff in Sodipodi
<jbailey> nickr: That sounds kinky.
<nickr> Quark is really the best though :(
<derek> i wont comment publicly
<derek> but i will say what some people dont know wont hurt them
<nickr> sodipodi IS kinky.. they use a squirrel as their logo
<jbailey> 'use'
<jbailey> ?
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<derek>  rock
<derek> i will have to look at this sodipodi
<derek> i think ihave found my logjam obsession has to do with fact they are privy to goat luv
<nickr> its still not usable like Illustrator is usable
<derek> as evidenced by their logo
<derek> i think im sick
<nickr> the interface of Illustrator and Freehand is very refined
<nickr> imho
<derek> i have found myself going out of my way to find python programs
<derek> i.e. i find a program and say hey this looks kind of cool then see its in perl or C or something and go, nah im not interested
<derek> so now not only do i seek gpl software but python gpl'd software
Action: chillywilly likes the idea of using Free tools
<derek> this is most disturbing
<nickr> derek: you are sick, sick person. 
<derek> anyone else that is using python getting this way?
<derek> nickr: well it depends on the tool
<derek> something like frozen bubble i could less about
<derek> but an email program
<derek> or a cd program
<derek> etc etc
<nickr> python irritates me because I still don't have a groove for it.
<derek> i like idea if its in python i can 'easily' grok it
<derek> so i feel like i have a chance to make the software better
<nickr> I use too many temporary variables
<derek> with something in C and GTK i go and start looking at the code and get nauseated
<derek> reminds me of MFC in 1988
<derek> where all the windows are drawn by hand instead of having libraries etc etc etc
<derek> but anyhow
<derek> its time to get work done
<derek> jcater: btw i commented on your mail. :(
<derek> guess im nobody ;)
<derek> though i did so in irc only
<derek> also the chip did also
<derek> rofl... guy subscribed to lug email list and said in 2 days got 60 emails and is unsubscribing and called everyone spammers
<jcater> <derek> also the chip did also
<jcater> ?
<nickr> haha
<derek> i dont recall his name
<derek> from .ar
<derek> chipca?
<derek> chipaca i think
<nickr> he had a very mundane realname
<derek> john something i think
<jcater> ah
<derek> he was one that made comment hope its like the form
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> blah
Action: jcater will smack "the chip" around tomorrow
<jcater> err, no I won't
Action: jcater will be out of town tomorrow
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> and friday
<jcater> damn
<jcater> what a week
<derek> man just slacking arent we
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<jcater> well
<jcater> before my bedroom door gets locked
<jcater> I better go
<jcater> :)
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<derek> ToyMan: you here (prolly not)
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<dtm> ok who here knows how to reset the date of pg_control?
<dtm>  /usr/lib/pgsql/contrib/pg_controldata/pg_control
<dtm> touching the file doesn't do it
<derek> great thing about ogg and grip
<dtm> Maniac: hi
<derek> is with minimal work i think im more loaded than many radio stations
<dtm> derek: hehhe
<Maniac> rm /usr/lib/pgsql/contrib/pg_controldata/pg_control
<dtm> Maniac: oh that's safe?
<derek> dtm there one way to find out :
<Maniac> i woudlnt' do it
<dtm> haha
Action: Maniac says hi back
<derek> occassionally and email pops out of him :)
<derek> that was meant for #dcl
<dtm> no 'rm' doesn't work!
<dtm>  :)
<dtm> so what now
<dtm> it's binary data
<derek> pray
<derek> hard
<dtm> yeah, done
<dtm> what else
<derek> wait?
<derek> all i can say is technology is so killer
<derek> been doing some youth pastor work
<derek> and im amazed at how the 12 - 16 year olds are using technology
<derek> and im talking non geeks
<Maniac> derek ah,
<dtm> yeah amazing
<derek> was at kids house today who had little like p90 machine with windows in his bedroom with net and gnutella and winamp
<dtm> derek: a lot of em i've found are way better at media than i am
<derek> had his computer routed to his stereo
<dtm> derek: cool
<derek> and doesnt even use the stereo
<derek> only streaming audio for radio stations
<dtm> heheh same here
<derek> and his mp3 collection for cds
<derek> not that is incredible technical feat
<dtm> i need ideas, people!
<dtm> pg_control!
<dtm> dont make me go to #phpgroupware!  :)
<derek> but im jsut noting non techies are using technology more creatively than microsoft tells them too :)
<derek> oh no threats
<derek> what are you trying to do again:>
<dtm> well then get to crackin
<dtm> !
<dtm> my pg_control data was last modified in 1957 according to my formerly broken clock
<derek> what is the problme i missed it somethign about pg_control
<dtm> so i need to reset that
<dtm> coz pgsql WONT START :)
<derek> um production server?
<derek> you have data backed up?
<dtm> well almost
<dtm> no
<derek> im pretty sure that one way to do it is
<derek> initdb
<dtm> but it's disposable more or less
<nickr> touch it all?
<derek> but dont do that if you dont have backed up data
<dtm> nickr: it's not at a filesystem level coz i used 'touch
<dtm> '
<derek> what makes you think there is somethign wrong with this file?
<dtm> sh-2.04# FATAL 2:  control file context is broken
<derek> you wont like me but my answer is initdb
Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( Metallica - One 15| 7:27 )15=14-
<derek> hold up i think i have answer
<dtm> :/
<dtm> yay derek
<derek> another answer is alter the source :)
<derek> xlog.c is where the check happens comment it out :)
<dtm> yes
<dtm> and then simply recompile
<dtm> 4 hrs later i'm free!  :>
<derek> rofl
<derek> i was teasing (its a real solution) just not one i would do 
<nickr> you could copy the data out of the base and then initdb then copy it back over
<nickr> if it uses the same format
<nickr> oh wait that wouldn't working
<dtm> :(
<nickr> haha
<derek> if he had good backup no sweat
<derek>  :)
<nickr> I love when songs go out side the dynamic range of CDs
<dtm> you fewlz
<dtm> nickr: how's that?
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<derek> what happened when you deleted the file again dtm
<chillywilly> these people at that ISP truly are clueless
<derek> if they have money maybe they can buy a clue?
<chillywilly> they got cracked and they wonder why when they are running tlenet and port 79 is open too
<dtm> derek: if i rm it, or rm and touch it, it's definately broken
<dtm> chillywilly: what's 79?
<chillywilly> finger port
<dtm> oh yeah
<dtm> geez.
<dtm> they wonder why?
<dtm> how'd you hear them wondering
<chillywilly> crazymike's gf works there
<nickr> dtm: When the sound in the song is outside the range of sounds that can be represented in the CD medium
<chillywilly> she all asking me how to extract a tar file from tape, etc.
<derek> dtm you cant initdb?
<derek> i.e you have data in there you cant lose?
<chillywilly> then telling me how they got cracked
<chillywilly> \so then I go get the trusty telnet and start probing ports
<derek> you might be able to move the data files then initdb then move them back but that always seems 'flaky''
<chillywilly> and they are like open to the world
<nickr> finger isn't all bad
<chillywilly> it's rediculous
<chillywilly> sure, but telnet sucks
<chillywilly> but who knows how theyreally got in anyway
<Maniac> i use telent over an ssh tunnel
<chillywilly> they sure don't
<chillywilly> Maniac: ssh tunnel sorta fixes the telnet problem doesn't it ;)
<nickr> finger is poormans web, dude.
<Maniac> :)
<Maniac> kinda pointless to tunnel telnet....
<nickr> 56k sucks for l33chez
<dtm> derek: well, initdb destroys all data, right?!
<dtm> derek: oh well yes i could
<dtm> derek: i'd just set everything all up again WHICH IS GOOD PRACTICE ANYWAY.
<dtm> :>
<derek> i think i learned something
<derek> backing up pg_control isnt an all bad idea :)
<nickr> yea really
<Maniac> tar -zxvf mybrain
<dtm> chillywilly: wait     crazymike's gf is their sysadmin, responsible for crisis recovery, and doesn't know how to restore tar from tape?  just checking!
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> she's a web master
<nickr> Marniacg: Input error: mybrain is not gzip format
<chillywilly> they don't even friggin have real IT people it seems
<dtm> chillywilly: so their webmaster is their sysadmin?
<derek> actually im not WHOLLY sure an initdb is gonna reset that file
<chillywilly> no
<Maniac> nickr: so true
<dtm> derek: :( :( :(
<nickr> companies that don't have real IT annoyme
<chillywilly> her bosses play with the server
<derek> im thinking it will
<chillywilly> but they seem to now know a damn thing
<Maniac> cat mybrain | grep IQ
<derek> worse case uninstall reinstall
<nickr> every company needs at least one crusty unix person
<derek> but i woudl try initdb first
<derek> crusty == ok
Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( Various Artists - I Am / Jill Phillips 15| 3:41 )15=14-
<dtm> chillywilly: so they have no sysadmin at all?
<derek> smelly + crusty == different floor please
<chillywilly> dude they have port 7 open too
<chillywilly> lol
<derek> chillywilly: sounds like they need to hire you
<chillywilly> hell yea
<dtm> HAHA
<chillywilly> that's what I am saying ;)
<nickr> port 7 isn't dangeous
<nickr> just silly
<dtm> hehehe
<chillywilly> I knwo but why even have all that crap open
<nickr> silly\t7ztcp
Nick change: Maniac -> Maniac-peels
<dtm> so nobody else has any input on my plight?
<chillywilly> what is your plight?
<dtm> @#)*
<derek> ok sparcy here is the answer
<derek> http://www-courses.cs.uiuc.edu/cgi-lxr/source/contrib/pg_resetxlog/README.pg_resetxlog
Action: dtm chex
<derek> you will find a readme, .c file and makefile ehre
<derek> read the readme
<derek> this will wipe your xlog 
<derek> and rebuild your pg_control file
<derek> there is also a program in contrib/
<derek> that will let you 'view' pg_control
<derek> you could take that source and hack something to edit the date as well
<dtm> dude
<dtm> derek: i love you
<dtm> derek: but the README has warnings.
<dtm> partially applied transactions?
<derek> dont love me till you get it to work
<dtm> what's this?
Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( Plus One - Written on My Heart 15| 3:48 )15=14-
Action: nickr queues #gnue porn music
<derek> gack... darn kids music
Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( POD-Southtown 15| 4:29 )15=14-
<derek> i hate when those pop in
<dtm> haha
<derek> dtm look in xlog dir they point out
<derek> i assume its probably blank and you have no pending transactions
<chillywilly> "we gotsta get paaaid"
<derek> but i look at it like this
<dtm> derek: so uh.
<derek> right now you dont have a working postgres
<dtm> derek: what xlog
<chillywilly> "where's my mutha fuckin' movie check?"
<derek> so if your choices are blowing an xlog
<derek> or having no postgres
<derek> its a no brainer to me :)O
<dtm> well yeah plus i have no critical data
<derek> as an initdb blows alot more than xlog 
<dtm> so uh.
<dtm> do i have to dump/initdb/reload?
<dtm> even after htis?
<dtm> what's the xlog dir?
<derek>  9 pg_resetxlog is primarily intended for disaster recovery --- that is,
<derek>  10 if your pg_control and/or xlog are hosed badly enough that Postgres refuses
<derek>  11 to start up, this program will get you past that problem and let you get to
<derek>  12 your data files.  But realize that without the xlog, your data files may be
<derek>  13 corrupt due to partially-applied transactions, incomplete index-file
<derek>  14 updates, etc.  You should dump your data, check it for accuracy, then initdb
<derek>  15 and reload.
<derek> this fixes your problem so you can get at data
<dtm> where is the xlog dir
<derek> if you had no pending transactions (which you probably didnt)
<dtm> yeah probably
<derek> and you werent reindexing
<derek> you have no worries
<derek> worse case it has some issues
<dtm> there was no activity, i can tell you that
<derek> but at LEAST you can pg_dump
<derek> fix the data manually and reload
<derek> right now you cant even get to your data
<derek> i would say it appears there is minimal risk here
<dtm> do you know where the xlog dir is?
<derek> i.e. your in such a screwed state there isnt much worse that could happen :)
<dtm> well yeah considering i have no critical data
<dtm> if i did then there could be worse :)
<derek>   /var/lib/pgsql/data/pg_xlog
<derek> is where that dir is on redhat
<derek> not sure on debian as i woudl have to wheel over to other desk and im too lazy
<derek> well i could ssh just a minute
Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( Rich Mullins - we are not as strong as we thi 15| 4:48 )15=14-
<dtm> there's a 16MB file in there.
<dtm> what's that?
Action: derek loves unix its really for the lazy
<derek> i dont know mine is empty
<dtm> it's called 0000000000000000
<derek> whats it called
<dtm> that seems bad
<derek> is it binary
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> :/
<dtm> hm i should start over anyhow  :(
<derek> i would just run this program
<derek> do a data dump afterwards
<derek> look at your data briefly
<derek> and if it looks kosher you are probably cool
<derek> if you see anything funky hand fix it and reload it
<dtm> what is a data dump?
<derek> pg_dumpall
<dtm> that's like 'pg_dump', right?
<derek> or pg_dump
<derek> yeah
<dtm> ok and waht's that do?
<dtm> well, which one?
<derek> dumps data, indexes etc to text files
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<derek> for reloading
<dtm> that outputs all contents of all db's 
<dtm> ?
<derek> its how you backup postgres
<dtm> mmhmm
<derek> or 'save it' before doing risky stuff :)
<dtm> and so if i do that i'tll output to a default location, righ?T
<dtm> can you hold on for ~5-10mins while i walk the dog? :)
<derek> do a man pg_dump or man pg_dumpall
<dtm> mom's going to bed and he sleeps with her :>
<dtm> ok
<nickr> actually this is what you shoulda done all a olng
<derek> let him dump on mom :)
<derek> j/k
<dtm> h0h0
<derek> nickr: :)
<nickr> you shoulda dumped it and the re initdb
<dtm> well he did pee on the floor at 3am 2 days ago which is what she's afraid of!
<dtm> coz we didn't walk him all day
<derek> ill be here
<dtm> nickr: yeah but i have to also do the pg_control rebuild
<dtm> brb
<nickr> you cant dump with a broken pg_control?
<derek> no
<derek> as it requires a running postgres daemon
Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( VEGGIETALES-Stand 15| 1:42 )15=14-
<derek> and if i heard dtm correctly it was during a restart that is was bitching
<dtm> kee-reckt
--- Thu Mar 21 2002