night chillywilly (danielb@d182.as4.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: im kind of tired Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( JARS_OF_CLAY-I_Want_To_Fall_In_Love_With_You 15| 4:45 )15=14- ok i'm here well get to compiling that thing ah'm awn it as;jf you compiling there dtm #@*%! ? getting no where fast? ???? .... ok sorry i was in a christian chat just kinda fascinating to me to see people openly talking faithfully before complete strangers :) psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. psu++ sorry, I only come in non-OO varieties ;-) yeah i gotcha well i hope you find your state sufficiently robust nontheless :> dtm i need to go to bed nite derek let me know how it works out in the end i'm reading the man page for 'pg_dumpall'; you compile that program and run it ok? that is what i am most curious about so i only need to do 'pg_dumpall > db.out' and then run the other app we mentioned can it compile and run it's compiled; it comes with pgslq pgsql and does it let you get into the database huh? that pg_xlog thing came with it? pg_resetxlog, yeah it's in the 'contrib' dir cool and it compiled ok but 'pg_dumpall' requires that postmaster is running. and you ran it out? well it came compiled but i can't back up first and you can restart the postmaster? no so should I run it first then back up? you have to run that pg_resetxlog to fix your file so you can restart postmaster then initdb, then do the restoration command? then do a pg_dumpall ok stand bu by and view the output if it looks good you are done if it looks funky you will have to hand edit it and reload ah crap my db had recently crashed due to kernel panic ok it's reset huh? so its reset can you restart postmaster? not yet; now i'm getting permission problems filesystem perms on a restart FATAL 2: open(logfile 0 seg 2) failed: Permission denied yessir um sorry to have delayed in resuming these operations, sir su -l postgres -s /bin/sh -c "/usr/bin/pg_ctl -D /var/lib/pgsql/data -p /usr/bin/postmaster start " that's what i ran login a terminal as root the do su postgres then run that program oh yeah then log out and as just normal root run /etc/init.d/postgres restart (debian) or /etc/rc.d/init.d/postgres restart (redhat) or whatever you do to restart postgres it starts! i would try this on my machine but i really dont want to reload my pg_control file:) Action: derek does the happy dude dance you were right; i ran it as root rather than 'postgres' heheh yeah thanks anyway :> but i've shown you the importance of backing up that file too huh?:) not too much so i think we've _all_ learned a little something here tonight. as if you had good backup probably easier to just initdb it and reload data however not all bad idea and good to know this exists as most people (me included) only back up nightly so if system freaked at 5pm so if i have my pg_dumpall output, then i dont need anything but a compatible pgsql installation, in order to fully restore and have identical operations, right? this could save me from losing a days worth of data :) right ok pg_dump man page shoudl tell you how to reload it but as stated its in there so in that case i wouldn't need my pg_control file or any other file, right? so you SHOULD NOT have to reload it UNLESS it looks corrupt well i dont know how to look except to click around in the GUI for my web apps well i would do a pg_dump REGARDLESS so you have a back up :) but then look at the output make sure it doesnt look like any data is missing etc you are probably fine as is Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( artist - PAX217 - Prizm 15| 4:08 )15=14- hmm but doing a dump and a restore wont 'fix anything' you have to do a dump oh ok then edit the dump to fix it then reload but please do the dump :) and do it nightly :) and save it to another media source than that hard disk ok so if i only want to backup/mirror my working DCL database then i use 'pg_dump' to dump the entire db, copy the resulting file to the 2nd host, then use 'psql -f data.out dcl' right? then my 2nd host has identical DCL operations? not sure of syntax w/o looking but yes but it will only have data as of last dump assuming the rest of the system is set up (apache, php, pgsql, linux username, and pgsql username/perms) so its not a 'real time' mirror so that's it, right/ correct but rather mirror as of last 'sync' that's good enough for light usage i call it an 'oh shit' mirror for a two person workgroup that would be pretty high tech yeah so is my perspective on backup/mirror correct? yip i could then just failover to the 2nd host/ i would use rsync *elite* yes i will via rsa-auth ssh yip wont be much data anyhow and i'll do it frequently multiple times per day you can do as frequently as you see fit only limitation is time it takes :) i.e. if it takes 10 minutes to execute the pg_dump DCL doesn't have a problem if the server it's running on, has a dynamic IP addr, right? yeah most often you coudl do it is every 10 minutes :) and i dont have to stop the db in order to run 'pg_dump' right? um i dont recall i do not think so ok it goes by name and you can set that to like ./ or something yeah no you do NOT stop the db for pg_dump Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( FINE_YOUNG_CANNIBALS-She_Drives_Me_Crazy 15| 3:39 )15=14- and it should work w/ people in the system but 'pg_dumpall' apparently tells the restore process to clobber all potential target data overlapping data, that is so if there's already a db called 'dcl' or whatever in the target pgsql installation, will the target db 'dcl' be totally erased and overwritten, resulting in an identical copy? also verify tomorrow with jamest (he is postgres stud muffin) if he uses this method for back up i have in past as i had problem doing just the data files but i believe pg_dump doesnt get partial indexes or something (not a huge deal) ok heheh doing what data files you mean backing it up from the filesystem? dtm: i dont recall you can tell from the dump file dtm: yeah yeah pg_dump doesn't get overall db objects only that which is directly inside a single db right pg er pg_dump for single db yeah pg_dumpall all dbs plus shadow well ok you go to bed then derek: you are loved and admired by many cool so you are set and back in business? even though you were listening to Fine Young Cannibals hold on good thing you didnt see the last song derek is currently listening to : -=( RICK_JAMES-Super_Freak | 3:25 )=-\ h0h0 Action: derek is currently listening to : 14-15=( Various - Send Out a Prayer / Anointed 15| 4:34 )15=14- still need me to hold on? reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.104) joined #gnuenterprise. hi reinhard everything looks ok so far sir reinhard: werd Action: derek starts to saunter off to bed Nick change: derek -> dnSleep saunter on, my educated friend morning dnSleep: thakns Action: dtm saunters off to pee dnSleep: thanks so much as in "thanks for sharing that last piece of info" ? ;-) Action: psu starts to saunter off to work psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("quit messages - the bumper stickers of the 21st C?"). drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid_ (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) drochaid_ (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. 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Harald1 (Peter1234@pD9EB1C11.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. alexey (Alexey@strel.techkran.vladimir.ru) left irc: "[x]chat" jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Client Quit Harald1 (Peter1234@pD9EB1C11.dip.t-dialin.net) got netsplit. Harald1234 (Peter1234@pD9E0E296.dip.t-dialin.net) got netsplit. Harald1 (Peter1234@pD9EB1C11.dip.t-dialin.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. Harald1234 (Peter1234@pD9E0E296.dip.t-dialin.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. Harald1234 (Peter1234@pD9E0E296.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) just a question concerning the website: why isn't there a link to DCL in the external link section? because we suck at keeping the site up to date Action: dnSleep is currently listening to : 14-15=( Linkin Park - By Myself 15| 3:13 )15=14- we really, really need a web maintainer that we can enslave to do nothing but web updates :) jamest: i will do it, but we just need people to email info@gnue.org or file bugs in dcl :) Nick change: dnSleep -> derek psu and neilt help out a lot too cool to here that webslave s/here/hear btw: did you get psu access to do updates and cvs? alexey (~alexey@195.151.214.34) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest: how do you back up postgres? you back up the file system files? or you do a pg_dump and back that file up? both how do you normally restore from a failure? Action: derek is recalling file system restores were 'flaky' but am reading that pg_dump doesnt get some things i pg_dump my db prior to my backup run my backup run does the whole machine also I date stamp my pg_dumps and keep the last few weeks worth right but if your database gets toast do you restore it from file system or a pg_dump? or does it depend on the failure type ok link to dcl on front page now under 'other gnue software' i always use pg_dump data s/always/would always never had it happen :) alexey (alexey@195.151.214.34) left irc: "Client Exiting" ok. is anything decided about how the merge will be executed? will only the db-structure of dcl stay? Harald1: not fully decided the first thing you will see is that dcl is getting more external development as of today some rbac stuff was submitted as a patch while it might not be the long term direction it solves some important issues immediately also in the cvs head branch you will notice GNUe Forms (non web screens) for DCL being checked in the contact management portion will be much much more robust in next DCL and probably even further extened into real CRM in the GNUe CRM stuff i have to run :( bye. thank you. will be back in an hour or so btw: if the db structures change the upgrade path will handle example we are gutting the contact stuff heavily on the db side and main reason its not released is (we need more testing) and because we will have to write a 'program' to upgrade the database instead of simply doing ALTER tables but the GNUe forms are already in cvs? yes mostly maintainance ones i have some others too that arent in cvs that need cleaning up http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/service_requests.jpg\ is an ugly example http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_account.png is in cvs http://goats.gnue.org/~dneighbo/gnue/dcl_departments.png is in cvs and many others bbl for real now :) Nick change: derek -> dnWork dnWork: if you need Win4Lin, I've got a copy I never used.. Harald1234 (Peter1234@pD9EB169A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hmpf. hi hi dsmith (~dsmith@207.206.47.254) joined #gnuenterprise. yogurt2unge (~charlie@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. Harald1 (Peter1234@pD9EB1C11.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) Nick change: Harald1234 -> Harald1 Action: drochaid_ returns SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.28) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: drochaid_ -> drochaid vegas (~no@adsl1-213.qualitynet.net) joined #gnuenterprise. vegas (~no@adsl1-213.qualitynet.net) left #gnuenterprise. hi reinhard hi SachaS how are you? fine thanks and you how is the beach today? :) good thanks. on my todo list ... havent been to the beach, today. :) :) but its hot. on my todo list is an item: tell reinhard about sweden. so here it goes. the openebxml laboratory in sweden has about 5 "scientists" doing projects for and around it. the people have different projects. they are placed between computer science and business they want to realise business solutions with computer science help one big thing was all the time: modelling they want to have modelling tools. like uml pattieja (~pattieja@www.pcxperience.com) joined #gnuenterprise. modelling business processes in particular yeah but not only modelling but have executable models. so you model then "save" and "start". basically. exactly what we talked about like it is not easy at all. uml2gcd or like that yes. em dia2gcd if you program gcd only programmers can handle it mostly but if you have modelling tools yeah you can focus on a higher level kind of. that's what we are planning anyway at least it was my understanding to have a "designer" for geas ok. that will work on a high level and save it into xml files and/or database then there was another topic. maybe you heard of BPML Business Process Modelling Language never :) i "heard" about it. what is it? is it like our gcd language? www.bpml.org sorry i cant tell you. I did not read the specification. From my reading (around) I understand that it is more based on "MODELLING" thats maybe not the best base for a discussion. to get your brain working and model (draw) what is going on in the enterprise I want to have a look at it tomorrow and come back tomorrow, to be prepared. ok i'm downloading the spec now :) oh well It seems, that with BPML you model the enterprise business. i'd say I tried to the next step is inter-enterprise business server seems down or link broken or whatever and there you can model with ebXML (electronic business XML). i think i got that ebXML focues heavily on inter enterprise business, called collaborations. ok. so problems are: enterprise wide you have BPML and inter-enterprise wide you have ebXML. problem: you need some kind of mapping. well BPML mention ebXML on their homepage so i guess they are somehow related i guess it is similar with programming languages. a server is written in c and a client in java. so you need a mapping. c does not have exceptions so you have to handle exceptions somehow. and the somehow is the question. and there are probably many ways . that what i wanted to tell you from sweden, more or less. cool did I say I study BPML for tomorrow ...... ahhh. #@!)(1^! have you already found what you need for your ebxml project? good questions. i keep changing the topic. before was it the interface ebXML and ERP (or business application). The current topic is how to derive a Collaboration Protocol Agreement (CPA) from 2 Collaboration Protocol Profiles (CPP). hehe i found 2 supervisors! I need two. One knows XML the other electronic business. cool yes. how about you? did you get more time for GNUe? not yet :( silly customers keep buying my stuff ;) good. it's weird i do zero advertising i read you talked about geas version 2 :) maybe the just like it. it's a 20 year old program basically that i support now just like the support. the must like the support it dosn't run on win versions > ME and i made 3 new installs within the last month ??? all companies that saw the program at other companies actually it must not run on ME to be better at all. and asked them where they can get it lol good for you. yeah of those 3 installs 1 was GNU/Linux and 1 was FreeBSD :) really? yes are you also in charge for backup, administration of the software? seriously it's a zero administration system i've got cumstomers i didn't hear from for years but they still work with it every day it must be like the vw combi year 1975 I use here! :) ok. i am off to bed. See you tomorrow. bye bye SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.28) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away Action: Yurik is away: for a bit, 10 minutes or so Action: Yurik is back (gone 00:05:56) Arturas (~raven@gsk.vtu.lt) joined #gnuenterprise. Hello Arturas: hi hey Arturas Hi Yurik :) Hello jamest :) did you see that jason removed the pyxml dependency ? StyXman (~mdione@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (~dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) joined #gnuenterprise. maniac-pee ? hmmm sounds like we need a doctor in here ah maniac-peels (bitchx truncation can be humorous :) Action: drochaid is considering pizza soon I am just playing a bit around with designer and I am wondering how uptodate the BUGS file is? Action: drochaid wonders if he should get some for dneighbo as well because it describes that under win32 the "new" submenu do not work. But they work correctly here... Hello Derek Harald1: just let us know and we'll fix the BUGS list do all the optoins work? I didn't try every wizard, but "New->Form" creates a new window with an empty form, and "New->Wizard" creates a new window and starts a wizard no no no :) please please please use DCL to file any bugs soon the bugs file should be generated from there until then consider the bugs file out of date :) ok. how exactly do I have to configure dcl, to submit bugs etc. to gnue? um go to https://dcl.sourceforge.net/dclgw/ i think there is a guest account and of course right now i dont recall it (grr that was on my list to add to the page) try guest guest VERY soon (as soon as on a weekend i can corral jamest) it will be as easy as submiting a bug to bugs@gnuenterprise.org to file a bug but bugs still should be send to bugs@gnuenterprise.org? send it to info@gnue.org for now as im not sure who bugs would go to jamest: please note we need to get this stuff squared away... i will try to enter some tickets for it if i get a chance im drowning here though :( Harald1 it is guest & guest to login but i see that you can only 'view' bugs not submit them from that login Action: dneighbo is looking to make dcl better at some of this (bug tracking kind of stuff) in the help desk side of the fence i'll look at it as soon as the page loads here which port was https on? um 80 i think if you go to http://gnuenterprise.org/dclgw/ it should redirect you to the https no that gives me a 404 hmm your browseer support https? well i tried ie (*ducks) and lynx hmm try fully qualified https://www.gnuenterprise.org/dclgw/ if that fails then try http://www.gnuenterprise.org/ if that fails, make sure you can get out on the net in general from that machine https://www.gnuenterprise.org/dclgw/ works cool though that's useless for me at the moment, as I can't post anything, right? yeah you could see 'filed' tickets and 'work orders' etc if you want to file bugs (we would love it) and i will create you an accoutn right now :) i just need your name and email I'd like to: my name is Harald Meyer and email is gruen-test@freenet.de klog (~gfd@modemcable221.190-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. feasgar math klog y0 droch bye Arturas (raven@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: "ircII/tkirc" brb rm-away (rm@62.47.45.104) left irc: "Don't believe in miracles -- rely on them" reinhard (~rm@62.47.45.104) joined #gnuenterprise. sorry was away linas (~linas@adsl-66-141-44-9.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi dneighbo long time no see anyone here discussing how to use glade to hook up to gnue forms? 55 oops ra3vat (ds@ics.elcom.ru) left irc: "Client Exiting" linas: nope my original stab at forms was to base on glade code which was a mistake they have different targets dsmith (dsmith@207.206.47.254) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) jamest: hi, also long time ... jamest: yes I understand, glade won't run on win or mac, that is not my concern. I was thinking of something simple though: just like in forms today, and Yurik_ (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. of course its a bit more complicated, since you have to know what kind of glade widget it is to poke date into it (or pull data out). but hopefully, it wouldn't really be a whole lot more complicated ... I would not want to modify glade *at all* although you'd have this hassle of having to hand-write xml to match glade fields to db fields ... comments? Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) Your_Master (foobar@pD95526EF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Your_Master (foobar@pD95526EF.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Client Quit i'm not sure i follow would this be in the gfd file ? yes, in the gfd file. An alternate syntax, kinda, since you wouldn't need much of the other markup. and then this would run under forms or glade? Nick change: Yurik_ -> Yurik Action: drochaid returns ... with PIZZA!!! umm... /me wanna pizza :) dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise. is python2 in woody or not? haven't thought it that far through yet. you'd need to use libglade to draw the forms btami (~btami@dialin34-isdn.emitel.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: drochaid dccs a piccy of the pizza to Yurik ;) you'd need to use xml parser to read the hookups hi all drochaid: thanks so glade would draw the form and gfclient would run it, is that what you are saying? jamest: have you received my 1 line patch email? the icon size patch? yes yes, I'll try and get it applied tonight OK, thanks jamest: is python 2 in woody or in sid? woody has up to 2.2 2.1 IIRC is the default install now i did apt-get python and it installed 1.5.2 Action: jamest blinks reinhard....a debian user? Action: reinhard is a debian newbie yes for 2 days now you running woody? :) yep sorry, what IIRC means? If I Recall Correctly suse 6.4 doesn't contain python 2 and i decided to not buy suse any more reinhard: you have woody lines in your /etc/apt/source.list out of ideological and technical reasons and no stable lines um linas: if we do this what are we gaining? I'm trying to figure out the angle you are comming from jamest: all lines have the word stable in them i guess that's not correct reinhard: that is potato why does my woody cd do that? um stable - potato on the cd label it said woody :) what I would do is apt-get install netselect netselect-apt woody thanks this will create a source.list file that contains fastest mirrors for your machine hand copy the lines over of copy over it then apt-get update apt-get -u dist-upgrade the -u lets you see what it's going to do and confirm the updates if you hit errors in the update typically you can do this... apt-get -u dist-upgrade apt-get -f install apt-get -u dist-upgrade Action: jamest is off to spread joy amongst the users now where's my bat seems like its netselect not netselect-apt jamest: thanks a lot netselect-apt may be a command with woody's netselect package it produces the sources.list file automagically i have no command netselct-apt netselect-apt if you don't want to hand code then just replace the stable with woody in the existing file ok you can also put testing in there but I don't recommned it as some day woody switches to stable and sid to testing ok you don't catch the announcement and do a dist-upgrade and you are now running sid :) Action: jamest speaks from experience on that one :) what is the diff between upgrade and dist-upgrade ? dist-upgrade trys to be intellegent about the updates it's upgrade with dependency checking man apt-get will explain it on the first page IIRC ok thanks again doing dist-upgrade now looks good :) yogurt2unge (~charlie@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). just a quick question: should debug->run in designer work? jamest: I've got to develop a pretty looking glade app; its gotta be pretty or they'll make me code in VB. Ughh. I'm using glade and some custom gtk widgets. Its mostly data-driven: which means most of it is gnue-forms-like so I'm scratching my head: what's the easiest way from here to there? I could do it from scratch, I could enhance gnue-forms, I could try bond/bonddb reinhard: take a look at http://archive.progeny.com/progeny/debian/doc reinhard: there is a 400 page users guige (GPL now) er, guide Harald1: nope broken for a long time linas: ah....ouch fil_c (~username@public1-cosh3-3-cust12.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. btami: thanks jamest: something serious? I did some quick changes and it does run forms now, though I am not sure if everything is correct nothing jamest: every half hour I change my mind. The from-scartch approach is to hack some xml that hooks up odbc table.fields to libglade widget names. Should be easy, but ... Harald1: nothing serious just we didn't fix is after a while but it leaves me cold for a long-term strategy (reports, etc.) linas: can you define "pretty" jamest: looked like it. as everything is there, you just have to make the connections jamest: "pretty looking": mxiture of buttons, menus, radio/select, text areas with padding and glitz work on dynamic menus is in the works, buttons work, text areas work glitz i don't know about :) jamest: I also have some custom scrolling strip-chart widgets and a satellite photo map underlay. ouch sigh brb jamest: I've got the map and the strip charts working Chipaca (~john@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. StyXman: whassup jamest: now I have to hook up a bunch of forms to a database thats the easy/hard part jamest: easy but tedious; alternately, hard if I try to merge into gnue :-( spend a dollar to save a penny i dont have time to read back log linas glade support is a WASTE if you want glade use glade our designer IMHO is superior to glade at this point and cross platform i assume your "issues" are either a. lack of 'cool' widget support or b. you desire native gtk if you want (a) forms really isnt too interested in that, i suggest just using glade if you desire native gtk simply write a UIgtk.py file i personally see glade as having nothing to do with forms linas: you may want to see about mixing and matching, using forms where it saves you time dneighbo: what's 'native' in this context? as designer wizards make that part so easy a year ago, someone could convince me that perhaps glade could be retrofited to be our designer but honestly now our designer is there and it 'rocks'(tm) so i cant see going backwards :) but dropping to glade where you need the glitz if you just want easy databinding in glade there are lots of projects that are doing databinding for glade now it may be possible to extend the forms client to do more gnome-db being one of them ie: support widget plugins, but that's going to take work :) im not trying to be too harsh here, but we have hashed these in the past :) making gnue MORE complex isnt our goal :) Chipaca native in this context means no abstraction wx uses NATIVE widgets but doesn through an abstraction UIgtk.py would us pyGTK or something to natively talk to the gtk UIwxwindows.py talks to the wx api which then talks to gtk or win32 etc by authoring a UIgtk.py one is then removed of all wx dependencies and simply must have the gtk stuff if that makes sense i guess linas ran away..... and dangit i have a gnucash question rant rant rant ICJ (foobar@pD9E464A7.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. nothing quite like a good rant to get things out of your system, eh? :) I wholeheartedly agree read the article on freshmeat this morning? someone ranting about OSS databases er mysql is missing a few features, although it's got all the important ones now (?!?), and postgres sucks coz noone uses it bit of a shit article I guess I'm no one :( nickr: yeah, my thoughts too they recommended that people used MS SQL i prefer it to mysql too of all the strange things to recommend i believe sapdb is the most advanced free db has anyone played with firebird? I am testing GNUe with interbase/firebird huh he basically just dismissezs Postges Postgres he calls it 'execpptional' It's bizarre why doesn't he recommend it then? what's this about pgsql?? drochaid: http://freshmeat.net/ ta Someone (more knowledgeable than I, or, maybe multiple someones) should do up an article showing all the pros/cons of the various Free Databases, and submit it for next weeks article ugh. Someoneneeds to kick the author in the ass psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. mornin' spu er psu (sorry) his logic is 'since postgres isn't used everywhere, even though it has good features, you shouldn't use it' hi isomer hello, idiot, if you encourage people to use it it will have support Isomer: if I wrote an article, it would be heavily biased in pgsqls favour ;) hey psu hi drochaid drochaid: at least that would be a better thing to write :) heh Isomer: is this the right article ... You Say You Want a Revolution (or Dude, Where's My Database?) by Lee Geistlinger, in Editorials - Saturday, March 16th 2002 00:00 EST drochaid: yah, thats the one we're discussing. this guy must be smart, he recommends php as a primary platform right .. well I just found one thing that's total shite "1. A true relational database, as described in 1970 by Dr. E.F. Cobb. (MS SQL, Oracle, MySQL)" MySQL does NOT pass the relational tests heh doesn't even come close as for acidity .. forget it on Undernet, we have a bot "X" which is our channel service. X uses postgres as it's backend. not even oracle and ms sql pass cobb's test cool Isomer -X- I've received 811364 commands since I started (9.87 commands per second). -X- Uptime: 0 days, 22:49:58 (our uptime is usually higher than that, it's just been upgraded recently) lol most commands are several queries and, of course, we have a web interface into the database *as well* which does some reasonable amount of pages per second and theres also a process that runs every 30 minutes that handles various cleanups StyXman (mdione@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?" postgres has been rock solid for us :) Action: Isomer thinks that if a DB can take that sort of punishment for over a year, it's probably usable for most people ;) the commends are much better than the article um a lot of folks use postgres actually "PostgreSQL you see if im not mistaken A product of Berkeley, a very Oracle-like database competing with MySQL and (to a lesser degree) Oracle. MySQL has a much larger install base and came earlier. Sad." uh .. mysql came earlier?? there was this little company called 'illustra' did it f*** who got merged into informix who got bought by IBM can the author read a simple history file?? the same folks doing postgres were um illustra authors.... many people dont realize that postgres is really an database that supports object extensions much as illustra and informix (with datablades) does/did dneighbo: yep, postgres evolved from ingres which evolved for .. uhm .. that first one ;) heh i dont know whetehr to laugh or cry when i hear that mysql vs postgres you have the best of the best doing postgres for eons object tables rule! I love subclassing tables i.e. its history comes from the big boys dneighbo: laugh, it's better for you compared to mysql who comes from teh equivalent of microsoft jet or paradox or dbase i.e. flat file system I mean, cummon .. only Oracle can challenge the true ORDBMS nature of PostgreSQL that elvolved to do some sql stuff and slowly has PATCHED on (read hacked) thigns to make it compete jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise. l8r all reinhard (rm@62.47.45.104) left irc: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" i will say mysql has come a LONG way in last 3 years and i dont brush them off completely as i used to but i liken it to oops, screw up on my part ... dneighbo is right, it was informix ... not ingres i know lots of folks using access because it was EASIER than MSSQL heh this is funny: (I use emacs, but the guys that started earlier than me still use vi as their main editor). that doesnt mean access is better considering that emacs was around before vi. nickr: I got a good chuckle from that one :) lol so mroe people using MySQL than Postgres surely shouldnt draw same relation MySQL simply gets more publicity than PostgreSQL we inherited a project based on mysql at work for really simple dbs [ie noddy websites] then yeah, it's faster and oh dear is it pretty hidious jamest (~jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. but as soon as you try even a moderate query, performance just dies hey jamest drochaid it at one time (possibly still) did table level locking drochaid: lets not forget it's ability to corrupt itself :) if you turn postgres to table level lock it smokes mysql but postgres team is smart enought to realize NO ONE should use table level locking :) dneighbo: completely irrelevant, but I rather like the fact that the name of MySQL ... looks rather like MSSQL >:) unless they are crack addicted :) uhm table level locking :(( I got away from that when I stopped using Access '95 dneighbo: It doesn't matter which one is faster -- since what really matters is if you can index things. drochaid : everyone who says mysql fast (a year ago) talk about the best way to screw useability of even a small 16 person db mysql until recently couldn't index any column that wasn't NOT NULL. iw ould say ok write report that endlessly loops or does a nasty query that takes more than 5 minutes then have people do data entry at same time they woudl say 'it froze' mysql we cant enter data thats when i gave them teh genius award :) Isomer, dneighbo ... is it still the case that MySQL does not handle UNION or other rather usefull statements? where as on undernet we have an index on "lower(username);" drochaid: I don't believe it does UNION, but it does do LEFT/RIGHT/OUTER joins drochaid: but doesn't do subselects so it's getting better then ;) I heard you can *fudge* sub-selects .. not pretty tho Anyone know what a comparable command to "apt-cache search" is for a RedHat 6.2 system? not a clue, sorry dsmith dsmith: rpm -qip *.rpm | grep Chipaca (john@modem42-adsl.capfed2.sinectis.com.ar) left irc: "ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet?" Action: dsmith has only used Debian for years drochaid: you can either do them in code, or, alternatively, you can convert them to left joines Isomer: Is that for installed packages or avaliabe packages? dsmith: that would be for all packages in a directory lol dsmith: rpm -qi | grep .... er dsmith: rpm -qai | grep .... would work for installed packages Isomer: Eeewww. er, yes. very ewww Isomer: THanks! dneighbo: rpmfind ? rpm -qa | grep whatyouwant Action: Isomer prefers debian any day er dsmith: :) i think you setup up rpmfind for some stuff Action: dneighbo will gladly email you debian disks dneighbo: It's ok. I've got some. But thanks. I'm just playing with dRedHat for a bit. I'll be putting Debian (or obsd) on the box later. ICJ (foobar@pD9E464A7.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "ChatZilla 0.8.6 [Mozilla rv:0.9.9+/20020319]" obsd!? open bsd hmmmm nice for a firewall ;) netbsd [15:58] Last message repeated 2 time(s). lol I haven't used netbsd since '93 on my Amiga 1200 I'm guessing it's improved abit since then? btami (btami@dialin34-isdn.emitel.hu) left irc: drochaid: they have however ported it to 3 new kinds of toaster lol psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left irc: "[x]chat" drochaid: yea, they are at version 1.5.*3* now :o psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. wb psu hiya just lurking don;t let me put you off the db flame war ;-) lol actually, no one is arguing ... POSTGRESQL SUCKS I think we've all calmed down now :) it's the worst db in the world :) Yeah, everyone knows prosgres rulez does it rox anyone soxs? Action: Isomer hands out large clubs to all participants trout, plz some traditions have to be maintained Harald1: on your bug report....we've got a patch submitted that'll i'll install tonight psu: they are trout shapped clubs tho :P Action: dsmith tosses a trout-shaped club into the air and catches it in his teeth jamest: which one do you mean? The "real" bug sent via email or, the bug, which isn't anyone anymore (via dcl - tickets)? the icon bug ok dsmith (dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: Remote closed the connection jaemst who submitted patch? i think Harald1 put it in dcl as well dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise. make sure you document and close it out psu i will comment later on your report thing i think you might be overseeing the issue and how xslt and transformations might work i see two specifications one for how the format looks (the .grd) and one for how the data is spit back to me in file or stream no problem i think jcater was trying to point that way engine works you need somethings in the layout (.grd) that muddy its readability and thus use xlnms for that and so the parser doesnt gag a bit like you, I have a favourite proprietary reports package that i'm hoping to sucker jcater into btw: i need to reread his mail too doing a free implemenation of ;-) pref w/o too many donuts involved well i don tthink there is a package out there that does what i want :) and that is to uncouple the report query from the report me neither actually but I suppose we start from what we know + our own wishlist jamest - any progress on getting me the stuff I need to become trainee webslave? I have several jobs I've assigned myself in DCL and should have some free time next week to do them just need the relevant access I may not be around much longer tonight but we can discuss via email if necessary um you're wanting to do web stuff? on the FSF site or gnue.org site? dneighbo: no I did not post it to dcl dneighbo: hi again walked away for a moment dneighbo: read your comments, did I hit a nerve? dneighbo: to dcl I posted, that a bug described in the BUGS file is obsolete linas: we constantly have to defend keeping the gfd simple :) jamest: yeah, my biggest failing with gnucash was not policing it enough hi its weird, you want to encourage contributors, so you don't want to piss people off, but its hard to say "don't implement that its a bad idea" without pissing them off linas: are you a gnucash maintainer? or accidentally specing something thats too grandioise for them to implement. i'm sensing senior gnucash staff here linas didnt mean to piss you off dtm: it would be accurate to say, not much, not anymore just saying that we have talked a lot in the past and im saying we disagree on philosphy linas: oh. well gnucash seems to be a good thing, so thanks :) but I wrote 90% for the first 50 or 100KLOCS as evidenced by somethign things in gnucash :) linas: i've never used it coz i couldn't figure out how to compile the bleeding edge libs it needed when i tried it about 2yrs ago :) im all for contributions linas: i need to use either that or the appgen.com stuff linas: Intuit is a non-option ;> im just saying what you are proposing doesnt make a lot of sense as iirc glade has some databinding capablities or so i hear dneighbo: I sense hostility? wazzup? in fact grib was even touting his own set not trying to be hostile Action: dtm tosses dneighbo a couple of Scooby Snacks in the form of whole pizzas it is of course gpl software and you can do as you like and we would support you in it unless it was really whacked :) hey sometimes when designers/implementers disagree, they need to generate some proof-of-concept code. :} just a thought. linas: gnucash is great. I use it for the Cleveland LUG psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("#include cool_quit_msg.h"). Action: linas bows and waves dsmith (dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.." jamest: dumb question: why instead of inventory
linas: why not? at the time we didnt have an editor which would you rather type? and at that time we supported writing it EITHER way in fact we still might support writing it either way chillywilly (~danielb@d157.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. we did both at first but IIRC the second option doesn't work anymore its easier to parse, much much easier to parse datasource table="inventory"> in my experience. it was the parser cleanup that removed the 2nd option :) anyone know how to cast varchar4 to int in postgresql i know it can be done but I don't recall how :( goodnight Harald1 (Peter1234@pD9EB169A.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: got it chillywilly: werd use the force luke oh, I thought that maybe theres a deep theoretical reason ... nope :) time to head hoem home even bbl jamest (jamest@hobbes.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "[x]chat" ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-4-ip88.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-4-ip88.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Client Quit ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-4-ip88.albany.thebiz.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan_home (CaryKittne@c5300-4-ip88.albany.thebiz.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) jcater (~jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-24.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Lars_G (lars@200.62.10.54) joined #gnuenterprise. Is this a nice channel? Lars_G: this is a mean, bad channel. just look at the logs on gnue.org! run! lol you can't last 5 mins without gettin hit by something! Action: dtm lifts up his shirt and shows a trout-shaped welt on his back is it evil to fellow sysadmin-programmers too or only to Users that come to say the things users say? oh well sysadmin/programmers are the only users! woot? nobody in their right mind would use it, so only they do. you calling me a user???? welll uh not exactly! drochaid (drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) i didn't mean it that way, man! honest! you're sinning .... be carefull :) drochaid (~drochaid@pc2-kirk2-0-cust175.ren.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. I was a user, but GNUe Anonymous helped me. ;) now he's an abuser! trout style klog (gfd@modemcable221.190-202-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca) left irc: fil_c (username@public1-cosh3-3-cust12.cosh.broadband.ntl.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" rofl hi jcater how is life on the road? Lars_G this is a nice channel swell um jcater i will respond here becuase what im thinking and what legal documents need are SMART forms example you say this house belongs to: ::variable:: but then you have to go ONE MORE STEP do you say man and wife single person etc actually that is bad example an example woudl be multiple borrowers or multi line addresses grr this is hard to explain as its been a while those are common reporting requirements I have to account for multiline addresses in a lot of our customer service reports that mail letters to customers no im talking i make a DEEDS document and i have a database field called relationship type 1 - married 2 - individual 3 - something else etcc and i have a lots of verbiage following that that is NOT in the database that is conditionally printed hrm. I have some work in that area put in. so if its type one the paragraph reads AS MARRIED COUPLE WHO BLAH BLAH BLAH and it varies by STATE so TX might be AS MARRIED COUPLE BAH FOO and OH AS MARRIED COUPLE yuck foo you wouldnt want to necessarily make a custom DEED for each state heh. but rather dynamically build the form based on some rules I do conditional reports all the time; that's a basic requirement as far as I'm concerned so I don't follow so its not a mater of printing data as long it will support a complex version of this fine what's all this shouting about marriage?! most reporting tools do not is gnue auctioning off your wives? build dynamic text that is not in the database dneighbo: aloha and stanx for the help last night dude for one it'll support triggers i the verbiage options would be in form yes like triggers if it supports triggers it will do what im thinking btw in my experience im still thinking this going direction that is good but not what i had originally hoped :) but thats ok i am not writing it stuff like that is exactly what you'd want in support tables just an observation jcater: its different beastie i promise until you have done mortgage lending documents thats why i think it might need to be a separate tool currently the only people i have seen that do this are vmp I think you are talking very specific/extreme case for one adn they make a killing jcater um doctors and lawyers need similar as well and I really don't see a justification for doing a separate tool as if a reporting package can't handle that my chiropractor is dying for something similar then it needs to be rethunk btw im not saying it has to be a spearate package I agree a lot of popular reporting packages DON'T do that but that doesn't mean they shouldn't im just saying if people say that the functionality is stupid and doesnt belong in reports (too specialized) then we should offere as a separate tool not saying i want it as a separate too l just make a separate document generator that can embed reports :) actually your argument for a separate "tool" is actually an argument FOR my use of namespaces as this "tool" more than likely would use the underlying reporting engine only with modified functionality so maybe I shouldn't argue against you :) hey, now theres an idea hmm I scared him off im here i agree i like the namespace solution bye linas (~linas@adsl-66-141-44-9.dsl.austtx.swbell.net) left #gnuenterprise. Action: jcater is away: dinner bbs dneighbo (dneighbo@tmp-200253.flinthills.com) left irc: "BitchX: use it, it makes hair grow in funny places!" crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. crazymike (crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: Yurik (yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) Yurik (~yrashk@gw.telcos.net.ua) joined #gnuenterprise. crazymike (~crazymike@65.31.133.230) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: crazymike just got banned from #toronto isn't that cool??? crazymike (crazymike@65.31.133.230) left irc: Client Quit crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ??? seadh? seadh??? crazymike (crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: Client Quit any thinkers in room, how'd you test a cable withotu a multimeter a bulb or even a battery???? the only I can think of is sticking the cable into the wall's plug and touch it to my tongue to see if I conserve conciousness.... any less dangerous ideas?? crazymike (~crazymike@65.31.133.230) joined #gnuenterprise. crazymike (crazymike@65.31.133.230) left irc: Client Quit Lars_G (lars@200.62.10.54) left #gnuenterprise. crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Gerber78 (Gerber@d55.as14.nwbl1.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. i knew we could get you on here hi there crazy mike yeah just tooke me a while sigh Gerber78: this is the room for Linux Geeks :) is this Wisconsin Karaoke night? nice :) jcater: chill out, yo' Gerber78: they all talk smart and shit...I just sware alot Gerber78: and make fun of chillywilly lol that sounds like fun oh, it is 47 days jcater: I got banned from #toronto untill it is the end of the world as we know it Gerber78: lo Gerber78: lol its the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine this is the GNU Enterprise channel damnit http://www.gnuenterprise.orf er http://www.gnuenterprise.org this is now #SimpexGrinnell :) hell yeah uh, no lol you needz to take dat shit over to #pimplexrochelle "this is the GNU Enterprise channel" - whats that got to do with the price of tea in China??? I like Linux it's not linux but I am running XP it's gnu/linux chillywilly: shut the hell up man fuck off crazymike: no http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html it's "shut the fsck up, chillywilly" get it right jcater: NO wow jcater: I want to say "shut the hell up man " alright all nice chatting with you good night it is past my bedtime what you leaving for Gerber78 you know yall don;t have any equipment to do any work with anyway :P Gerber78: past your bedtime??? Gerber78: it is only 8:00 yeah man you're in a hurry to sit at the shop? I am just tired chillywilly: LOL Gerber78 (Gerber@d55.as14.nwbl1.wi.voyager.net) left irc: wtf did bring that yahoo in here for? I should pimp slap you cause i felt like it crazymike (crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: aw, I think I made him mad dyfet (dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@d157.as15.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) chillywilly (~danielb@d154.as12.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: jcater is back (gone 01:35:41) jcater: you talk too much shit Action: chillywilly beats jcater with a lead-filled donut :P) you there mr. jc? anyone... Action: jcater shakes his head and pulls himself up from the floor I said I preferred "jelly" donuts, not "lead" donuts I need donuts well, actually, glazed... but, I'll take whatever dave you get no such thing get back to coding ;) Im travelling again :) wouldn't expect anything less fromt a big shot executive ;) lol anyway... no, this is free software travel, always the best kind wtf should I call this monstrisity geas v2 architecture proposal sound ok? Action: chillywilly forgot a comma or 2 there was that a question or a statement? it was a question slightly rhetorical dyfet (dyfet@dsl-65-188-113-57.telocity.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/3/18/64037/9706 ZOOM ZOOM I'm bo,red. read this: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/3/16/31143/6747 what kind of fucked up bus system is that? its cool that he mentions RAW though, my second favorite author I dunno one in SF the thing I like about NY is that there aren't a lot of rulse they don't spend a lot of time protecting people from each other, so everything works really well like the mass transit here is AWESOME much better than anywhere else I've lived lol someone's sig is: I'm not even supposed to be here. hehe hehe Nick change: Maniac-peels -> Maniac night all chillywilly (danielb@d154.as12.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) left irc: alexey (~Alexey@techkran.vladimir.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsville5b-143.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp286529.sympatico.ca) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (jbailey@HSE-Toronto-ppp286529.sympatico.ca) left irc: "Client Exiting" jcater: when can i download the tank? Nick change: dnWork -> dnSleep dnWork: I'm still trying to get the leather to stick to the titanium jcater (jason@HubA-mcr-24-165-193-24.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.142) joined #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~sacha@203.190.196.142) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). --- Fri Mar 22 2002