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<NetTantra> hi all
<NetTantra> Newbie to GNUe sphere :)
<ra3vat> hi
<NetTantra> But very eager to implement
<NetTantra> Well is it really stable? is the question I put to you people first?
<ra3vat> tools (forms, designer) are useful enough for 2-tier mode
<NetTantra> And what all modules you have said to be downloadble will work for sure without bugs?
<ra3vat> none :)
<NetTantra> ra3vat: You mean to say nothing is ready yet?
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<NetTantra> hi psu
<ra3vat> tools (forms, designer) are ready to give a try
<psu> hi NetTantra
<NetTantra> so ra3vat- I have to use forms, designer and create modules and implement???
<ra3vat> i mean none is without bugs :)
<NetTantra> OKKKKKK Sounds Just great!
<NetTantra> Now the question is Customising them
<NetTantra> Do I need to have strong XML and Python knowledge to do them or I can do it with the IDE itself?
<ra3vat> NetTantra: yes for 2-tier GEAS (application server) is not ready  
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<NetTantra> hi reinhard
<NetTantra> Do I need to have strong XML and Python knowledge to do them or I can do it with the IDE itself?
<reinhard> morning
<NetTantra> reinhard: I was asking ra3vat about the ease of customization of gnue modules
<NetTantra> what do you feel?
<NetTantra> Is it too early to say anything about it?
<ra3vat> NetTantra: you can use designer and then customize them without strong XML knowledge
<NetTantra> That sounds really great!
<ra3vat> them - forms (.gfd files)
<NetTantra> ra3vat: Do you feel it is enough stable to be implemented onsite?
<ra3vat> you need python knowledge to make triggers
<NetTantra> ok
<NetTantra> What all module do you really say "Reliable"?
<ra3vat> modules (like accounting, ...) are not ready
<NetTantra> Financials, Supplychain Mgt., HR, CRM, Stores...?
<ra3vat> not yet
<NetTantra> How about Double Choco Latte?
<ra3vat> they were designed to be used with application server and now application server is in rewrite stage
<NetTantra> oH!
<ra3vat> dcl is in the way from separate php-application to something that would use gnue architecture
<NetTantra> ra3vat: Are you one among those who are rewriting GEAS?
<ra3vat> few guys working on that
<NetTantra> The Thing is, I wanted to know how long it would take to redeem the rewrite process? (Just very curious)
<nickr> geas is still in the proposal and design stage
<ra3vat> no, you should contact with reinhard, neilt, chiliwilly, jamest, jcater
<ra3vat> and others :)
<NetTantra> reinhard: Back to you :)
<NetTantra> I Want to implement GNUe in my office right now. How do I go about.. is it possible?
<psu> The team are all volunteers at the moment, so we work w/o deadlines
<nickr> in 2-tier you can do it
<ra3vat> is your office all under gnu/linux ?
<psu> as no-one can tell how much time they will have 
<NetTantra> ra3vat: We have two Linux servers.... rest or on MS
<psu> NetTantra - you can certainly use the GNUe tools in 2-tier to write apps yourself
<psu> If you're looking for "shrink-wrap" install and go Financials, HR, etc
<psu> we're not there yet
<psu> and to be honest 
<psu> we need to get the n-tier tools written & working 
<ra3vat> NetTantra: you can try bynary snapshot for MS (it is single .exe to get forms working)
<psu> before we start there.
<NetTantra> ra3vat: Come again - I did'nt get it? How do I do it with MS?
<psu> NetTantra: the official release is a few months old, you can either use that 
<psu> or the nightly CVS snapshots
<psu> I'll dig out some URLs for you
<NetTantra> psu: But how about the backend?
<NetTantra> geas with 2 tier should I stick to till geas n-tier appear?
<ra3vat> NetTantra: many well known from free to commercial
<psu> NetTantra - for the database back-end, use your choice of database
<NetTantra> ok
<psu> for the app-server backend, we have an Application Server 
<psu> that a company kindly contributed
<psu> but which needs an extensive re-write
<psu> which is just starting
<psu> On databases, we currently support loads of free and non-free choices
<NetTantra> I understand... I will try it out with PgSQL as of now... and wait for Geas to be rewritten. I hope and wish it happens at the earliest :)
<psu> including ODBC (i.e. pretty much anything that has an ODBC driver)
<psu> free: postgresql, mysql, SAP
<psu> non-free: Oracle, DB2
<NetTantra> k
<psu> Even today, 2-tier is a good framework for those sorts of little projects
<psu> that you start in MS Access before you realise you actually need something bigger ;-)
<ra3vat> NetTantra: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/snapshots/win32/
<NetTantra> But will existing geas allows me to use Postgresql?
<ra3vat> NetTantra: then you can get your forms working from MS to postgresql on linux side
<psu> NetTantra - geas is the application server = n-tier
<psu> the guys have decided to re-write this bit
<NetTantra> ra3vat: I am planning to use psql on linux
<ra3vat> NetTantra: good
<psu> For 2-tier you just need Forms, Designer and your preferred d/b
<ra3vat> NetTantra: where are you from ? (as i do some testing for i18n)
<NetTantra> In that case how do I execute the forms in MS world?
<NetTantra> (I am from India)
<ra3vat> NetTantra: forms based on cross-platforms tools like python, wxpython and do 
<NetTantra> Can this be web enabled and can be accessed using native webbrowsers like IE or Netscape?
<psu> NetTantra - we are looking at providing mutliple client access, including HTML
<psu> there was a guy working on a pure HTML client - not sure where that got to 
<psu> we also had someone working on a PHP client 
<ra3vat> NetTantra: are you ready to run two commands from your python prompt right now?
<psu> which I think made more preogress 
<psu> It's certainly an aim to support web-based
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<psu> In practice, I would expect that using complicated forms via web would be quite painful
<NetTantra> ra3vat: I am on a MS machine!
<psu> so power-users would probably always want to use a proper Forms client
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<psu> but for occasional users, web is probably fine 
<psu> Some of our project team are big web-application haters - 
<ra3vat> NetTantra: ok, may be later (but python is available for MS machine too)
<NetTantra> yeah I agee with you psu
<psu> but if you look at DCL, that is exclusively web-based at the moment 
<psu> so go figure ;-)
<NetTantra> ra3vat: Unfortunate thing is I do not have it on the machine I am working... tell what if I have?
<NetTantra> ra3vat: I have got a prompt
<ra3vat> NetTantra: we have few guys from India one of them did support for some native encodings
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> ********************************
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> Anyone who care about i18n support please raise two commands
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> at your python's prompt:
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> import locale; locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> import sys; sys.getdefaultencoding()
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> and give output back here or to my email on ds@ics.elcom.ru
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> <ra3vat> mine system gives the next:
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> Python 2.0 (#1, Jan 30 2001, 06:12:18)
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> [GCC 2.96 20000731 (Linux-Mandrake 7.2 RE)] on linux-i586
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> >>> import locale; locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> ['ru_RU', 'koi8-r']
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> >>> import sys; sys.getdefaultencoding()
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> 'koi8-r'
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> <ra3vat> Thanks
<ra3vat> <ra3vat> ***************************************
<ra3vat> so please do
<ra3vat> import locale; locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat> import sys; sys.getdefaultencoding()
<NetTantra> Traceback (innermost last):
<NetTantra>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
<NetTantra> AttributeError: getdefaultlocale
<ra3vat> what is the version of python?
<NetTantra>  1.5.2 
<ra3vat> requirement now to have it >= 2.0
<NetTantra> ra3vat: Where do you live?
<ra3vat> russia
<NetTantra> So will you be available usally this time every day?
<psu> we are a very internatioanl project
<ra3vat> NetTantra: yes
<NetTantra> ok
<psu> which is why we are working on i18n with such vigour ;-)
<NetTantra> I will get back with Python 2.x tomorrow :)
<NetTantra> Great time with you guys here! You are very much helpful to me! Thanks Thanks a lot
<NetTantra> !
<NetTantra> bye for now! I will be back around the same time tomorrow!
<NetTantra> :)
<ra3vat> NetTantra: see you tomorrow
<NetTantra> psu thanks
<NetTantra> ra3vat thanks
<NetTantra> bye all
<psu> no problem ;-)
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<ra3vat> psu: you have python prompt?
<psu> somewhere - let me find it
<psu> not sure of the version
<ra3vat> it will tell you
<psu> 1.5.2 - no good
<ra3vat> ah
<psu> (can you tell I haven't installed gnue on the free side of this box yet?)
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> I can do it for python2
<Isomer> give me a second
<psu>  /topic lend us your python - honest, it won't hurt ;-)
<Isomer> >>> import sys; sys.getdefaultencoding()
<Isomer> 'ascii'
<Isomer> python2.0.1
<ra3vat> and
<Isomer> >>> import locale; locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat> import locale; locale.getdefaultlocale()
<Isomer>   File "/usr/lib/python2.0/locale.py", line 243, in _parse_localename
<Isomer>     raise ValueError, 'unknown locale: %s' % localename
<Isomer> ValueError: unknown locale: 
Action: Isomer assumes this is because the locale isn't set
<Isomer> or is set to "C"
<Isomer> >>> locale.getlocale()
<Isomer> (None, None)
<Isomer> if that makes sense
<Isomer> >>> sys.version
<Isomer> '2.0.1 (#0, Jun 23 2001, 23:50:30) \012[GCC 2.95.4 20010319 (Debian prerelease)]'
<Isomer> same happens under 2.1.2
<Isomer> >>> sys.version
<Isomer> '2.1.2 (#1, Jan 18 2002, 18:05:45) \n[GCC 2.95.4  (Debian prerelease)]'
<Isomer> ditto under 2.2
<Isomer> >>> sys.version
<Isomer> '2.2 (#1, Jan  8 2002, 01:13:32) \n[GCC 2.95.4 20011006 (Debian prerelease)]'
<Harald1> ra3vat: here under windows it gives: ('de_DE', 'cp1252') and 'ascii'
<Isomer> (ie: valueerrors for getdefaultlocale and "ascii" for default encoding)
<Isomer> this is debian testing./
<ra3vat> wonder how the next code in PYTHONPATH/site.py would work for you
<ra3vat> encoding = "ascii" # Default value set by _PyUnicode_Init()
<ra3vat>  
<ra3vat> if 0:
<ra3vat>     # Enable to support locale aware default string encodings.
<ra3vat>     import locale
<ra3vat>     loc = locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat>     if loc[1]:
<ra3vat>         encoding = loc[1]
<ra3vat> if change if 0: to if 1: and restart python
<ra3vat> Harald1: thanks, i'm collecting that info  
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<Isomer> exactly the same results on python 2.2
<ra3vat> Isomer: i need someone from us, most probably they have the same setting 
Action: Isomer is from NZ
<Isomer> but I don't have any magical settings for NZ afaik other than TZ information
<ra3vat> Isomer: can you change site.py and try again?
<ra3vat> will it run at all?
<Isomer> I changed site.py as you suggested and it still failed.
<ra3vat> failed the same way or something strange on python's startup?
<Isomer> failed exactly the same way
<Isomer> so it started successfully
Action: Isomer looks at the code
Action: Isomer looks confused
<ra3vat> got it from ash.gnuenterprise.org myself
<ra3vat> dimas@ash:~$ python
<ra3vat> Python 2.1.2 (#1, Jan 18 2002, 18:05:45)
<ra3vat> [GCC 2.95.4  (Debian prerelease)] on linux2
<ra3vat> Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
<ra3vat> >>> import locale; locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat> (None, None)
<ra3vat> >>> import sys; sys.getdefaultencoding()
<ra3vat> 'ascii'
<ra3vat> >>>
<Isomer> ra3vat: "echo $LANG" ?
<Isomer> er:
<Isomer> storm:/home/perry/tmp# python /usr/lib/python2.2/site.py
<Isomer> Traceback (most recent call last):
<Isomer>   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/site.py", line 182, in ?
<Isomer>     addsitedir(sitedir)
<Isomer>   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/site.py", line 132, in addsitedir
<Isomer>     if name[-4:] == os.extsep + "pth":
<Isomer> AttributeError: 'os' module has no attribute 'extsep'
Action: Isomer suspects my site.py isn't getting run
<ra3vat> Isomer: it should
<Isomer> ok, I suspect it's being run, and thowing an exception which python's ignoring
<Isomer> what disto/os do you use ra3vat?
<ra3vat> something mandrake-like
<Isomer> hrm
<Isomer> ok
<ra3vat> the os is gnu/linux from alt-linux.org
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Action: ra3vat does not want to be trout slapped by someone for abuse of the terms
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> my LANG is set to "C"
<Isomer> which appears to be what python is complaining about
<reinhard> no
<Isomer> hrm, nope
<Isomer> bah
<reinhard> i have LANG set to de_AT@euro
<reinhard> and get the same error message for getdefaultlocale
<Isomer> ah
<Isomer> hmm
<reinhard> ra3vat: for me it is
<reinhard> getdefaultlocale: same error as Isomer plus my LANG value (de_AT@euro)
<reinhard> getdefaultencoding: ascii
<reinhard> --
<ra3vat> reinhard: have you tried to use non-ascii characters in forms? do you need it?
<reinhard> i have not even got forms to run on that machine
<reinhard> i have python 2.1 on debian since fri last week
<reinhard> and haven't got X running on that machine
<reinhard> i'm a debian newbie now and still in the learning curve for apt-get & friends :)
<ra3vat> :)
<Isomer> reinhard: well, I've got debian running well 
<ra3vat> i'm a debian nobody :)
<reinhard> ra3vat: lol
<reinhard> Isomer: i believe you
<reinhard> Isomer: i don't say debian is bad
<reinhard> i don't even say debian is harder to install than suse/redhat/xxx
<reinhard> i just say it's different :)
<Isomer> reinhard: yeah, but I ment it as if "this might be a configuration problem at both our ends"
<Isomer> (which it might be -- but it's not caused any other issues)
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> debian has a "locales" package
<Isomer> it appears they don't install locales by default
<Isomer> nope
<Isomer> that didn't help
<Isomer> :/
<Isomer> locales however provides /usr/share/i18n/* and /usr/share/locale/*/LC_MESSAGES/libc.mo
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<Isomer>     if '.' in fullname:
<Isomer>         langname, encoding = fullname.split('.')[:2]
<Isomer>         fullname = langname + '.' + encoding
<reinhard> Harald1: are you from germany?
<Isomer> ahh
<Isomer> I think I find the problem
<Isomer> storm:/home/perry/tmp# unset LC_CTYPE
<Isomer> storm:/home/perry/tmp# python2.2
<Isomer> Python 2.2 (#1, Jan  8 2002, 01:13:32) 
<Isomer> [GCC 2.95.4 20011006 (Debian prerelease)] on linux2
<Isomer> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
<Isomer> >>> import locale
<Isomer> >>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
<Isomer> ['en_NZ', 'ISO8859-1']
<Isomer> (don't harrass me for using root, I've been tinkering with /usr/lib/python2.2/*.py to try and get it working
<Isomer> :P
<Harald1> reinhard: yes
<ra3vat> Isomer: do you need to do unset LC_TYPE from normal user to get the same result?
<Isomer> yep
Action: Isomer suggests: if os.getenv("LC_CTYPE")=="": os.unsetenv("LC_CTYPE")
<Isomer> and then your application will work on debian
<Isomer> since debian or python aren't using that variable correctly
Action: Isomer suspects debian
<ra3vat> what is your LANG says after that?
<Isomer> but I'm still trying to figure where it (mis?)configures that variable
<Isomer> >>> import os
<Isomer> >>> os.unsetenv("LC_CTYPE")
<Isomer> >>> import locale
<Isomer> >>> locale.getdefaultlang()
<Isomer> >>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
<Isomer> ['en_NZ', 'ISO8859-1']
<ra3vat> reinhard: unset LC_CTYPE <- can you test it also?
<ra3vat> no, you seems have another situation
<reinhard> just a sec
<Isomer> perry@storm:/etc$ echo $LANG
<Isomer> en_NZ
<Isomer> on my machine
<ra3vat> Isomer: you fixed settings?
<reinhard> ra3vat: same error message
<Isomer> ra3vat: hrm, I didn't think so
<reinhard> ra3vat: if i change my LANG from de_AT@euro to de_AT
<reinhard> then it works
<reinhard> and i get ['de_AT', 'ISO8859-1']
<reinhard> not 100% sure what the @euro means at all
<reinhard> but it sounded good so i selected it ;)
<Isomer> rofl
<ra3vat> reinhard: de_AT seems more correct for a name of locale
<Isomer> I don't have a "de_AT@euro" 
<Isomer> but I do have en@quot
<Isomer> and a few others
<Isomer> reinhard: do you have a /usr/share/locale/de_AT@euro directory?
<reinhard> i believe the de_AT@euro differs from de_AT by the character set
<reinhard> de_AT@euro chooses a charset that has an euro symbol
<Isomer> one would assume that de_AT has a euro char in it somewhere
<Isomer> hmm
<reinhard> de_AT is much older than the euro :)
<Isomer> try "de_AT.euro" for your charset
<reinhard> iso 8859-1 doesn't have an euro symbol iirc
<Isomer> reinhard: er, sorry, I ment de_AT@euro has a euro char in it somewhere
<Isomer> doh
<Isomer> bah, ykwim
<reinhard> and iso 8859-15 (or something like that) is very much the same but with euro symbol
Action: Isomer has flat mates demanding to use my moniter as a tv screen
<Isomer> BBIAB
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<Isomer> back
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<ra3vat> dtm: hi
<drochaid> WORKING LUNCH TIME!!! :D
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<drochaid_> hmmm ... does GNU Enterprise have anything to do with Star Trek Enterprise?
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<Yurik> jamest: hi
<jamest> hello
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<ra3vat> jamest: hello
<jamest> hi
<dsmith> hey hey hey
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<Yurik> jcater: hi
<jcater> hello
<dnSleep> oh jcater's here i have to leave
<dnSleep> j/k
<dnSleep> bbl
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<jcater> sigh
<dtm> HIGH.
<dtm> i've been awake all night completing the first draft of my business plan.
<dtm> somebody move around and keep me awake!  :>
<dtm> i must format it all as one doc, print it, and go to class!(#@*
<dtm> to present it.
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<dtm> @#)*)@I
<dtm> rup dup dup dubbity doo
<dtm> RA-DUBBITY DUP DUP
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Action: jcater is away: lunch
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<Arturas> Hello
<ra3vat> Arturas: hello
<Arturas> hi Dmitry :)
<ra3vat> Arturas: any progress with i18n?
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<Harald1> hi
<Arturas> Hello
<ra3vat> Harald1: hi
<dneighbo> Harald1 hopefully my email explained the testing situation
<dneighbo> i.e. we believe strongly in a test suite and regression testing
<dneighbo> but while we have good working code that is highly useful
<dneighbo> its not yet 1.0 kind of stuff with a huge user base demanding that type of testing
<dneighbo> and since we are resource sensitive currently its hard to justify large time expenditures to a testing suite when demands elsewhere are so large
<dneighbo> hopefully that makes due sense
<Harald1> dneighbo: yes, it explained everything. I was just curious. But don't you think that using a test suite later will lead to a lot of boring work? If it is done as soon as possible after the implementation, it won't be that much work at once.
Action: jcater is back (gone 01:12:11)
<Harald1> And the developer still known what he/she has done
<jcater> Harald1: you would not believe how little time we developers have
<Harald1> s/known/knows/
<jcater> while that sounds reasonable, it is even tough to get our docs done in synch w/our changes
<Harald1> jcater: I can imagine, but if it's not done know, do you believe anyone wants to do it in a year or two?
<Harald1> s/know/now/
<jcater> no more so than they want to do it now :)
<jcater> I think it would be a waste of time given our current state
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<Harald1> jcater: hmm ok. I just think that'll take more time, if its done later. Though I understand your arguments and the stability of the code I tested proves you right
<Harald1> jcater: did you already receive my reply to ticket #8 ?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> but I don't have time to look at it further at the moment
<Harald1> jcater: ok. 
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<markoi> NoClue Begginners Question: Has anybody any clue huw much time must a begginner invest to setup 2 tier general ledger with gnue forms and postgres on linux? Actualy two ledgers one for a little bussiness and the other for family use. :-/
<dneighbo> for ever
<dneighbo> markoi currently we have a framework but not the 'shrink wrap' applications
<dneighbo> so you could download and install the framework to use with postgres in probably under 4 hours
<dneighbo> on debian if you are experienced linux user w/ postgres running probably take you about 10 minutes
<dneighbo> we do a have a general ledger specification
<markoi> But homepage claims it is working on several real systems
<dneighbo> markoi it is
<dneighbo> but not a general ledger
<dneighbo> the places that have it running are doing
<dneighbo> 'invoicing'
<dneighbo> 'inventory'
<dneighbo> 'call center'
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<dneighbo> the issue is that these places that are running it also paid consultants or in house staff to write the applicatiosn with the framework as 'custom' applications
<dneighbo> so they didnt give htem back to the community
<dneighbo> if you provided requirements
<dneighbo> im sure it wouldnt be too difficult to get you something completely custom running
<dneighbo> but its not something that would happen in 24hours
<dneighbo> but shouldnt drag you out endless years or anything :)
<dneighbo> what kind of business?
<dneighbo> and what 'pieces' are you looking for?
<markoi> I do use debian. I have some SAP in house consulting experience in Finances
<dneighbo> if you just want a 'ledger' you might be able to use gnucash or sqlledger
<psu> I once wrote a quick hack GL in M$ Access (oh the shame of it) in an afternoon 
<dneighbo> if you want more than that i think gnue is right for you if you are willing to put some work into building what you need
<psu> only thing I never quite got working was the balanced journal check 
<dneighbo> that said a mix match might be acceptable as well
<psu> doing something similar in GNUe probably would be as quick
<dneighbo> using sqlledger for the gl and building your other components in gnue around it
<markoi> I want to use doble sided accounting. And I do find gnue very interesting platform so I am prepared to leave some time here. In the reasonable limits to get usable results...
<dneighbo> we are looking for people willing to build/use applications :)
<dneighbo> the problem is we ahve limited people resources
<dneighbo> and most of the resources are making the tools better
<dneighbo> if they stop to build official applications the tools suffer
<dneighbo> so we are rough spot
<dneighbo> more hands help :)
<dneighbo> in fact people that are less engineer and more consulting type are what we need most :)
<markoi> I am not shure what I am more / less, but I hope to build more consulting side of me in the future
<markoi> Is gnue packaded for debian working at the moment or not? I saw some notes about some problems on KC
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<dneighbo> its packaged but isnt done well
<dneighbo> i would get from cvs probably opposed to from debian packages
<dneighbo> we have some people looking into cleaning up the debian packages so they install better
<psu> i'm looking for a couple of apps I know "must" exist
<psu> on debian somewhere
<psu> a) an html validator (pref. very strict)
<markoi> Where can I find sqlledger ? It looks like sqllledger is not spelled right. No hits on deja news,...
<psu> b) something to walk through some php pages and do all the "includes" 
<nickr> psu: tidy does samething like validation, but it also cleans up html and such. Probably not what you want
<psu> to spit out normal HTML?
<nickr> psu: validator.w3c.org is what you actually want
<psu> nickr: I always reckon "my" HTML is better than any machines ;-)
<nickr> psu: as far as the php is concerned thats eay .:)
<nickr> tidy is WAY cool
<nickr> try it just for fun
<psu> nickr: yep. I will  prob have to use w3c.org - was hoping for something local
<nickr> but anyway, all the php you need to know is <?PHP include('file'); ?>
<psu> tidy will probably do - if nothing else, I can pipe the output, diff it & see 
<psu> where I disagree ;-)
<markoi> I used on DEBIAN weblint as html validator a couple of times
<nickr> you can completely crontrol how it munges the output
<nickr> its pretty serious about fixing common erros and stuff
<nickr> its a validator/fixer/indent for html
<jamest> i'm jumping in w/o reading backlog
<jamest> but seems you are talking about html tools
<jamest> anyone know of a good tool like linbot that is currently being maintained
<nickr> jamest: whats linbot do?
<jamest> you run the bot over your site and it
<jamest>   link checks
<nickr> oh
<nickr> hrm
<jamest>   slow page analyze(looks at pics, size ,etc)
<jamest>   site maps
<jamest>   old page listing
<nickr> htcheck
<dneighbo> wright:/home/dneighbo# apt-cache search ledger
<dneighbo> odontolinux - Dental office management software (PHP4 + PostgreSQL)
<dneighbo> wright:/home/dneighbo# 
<nickr> well, it checks for dead links at least
<dneighbo> interesting
<dneighbo> http://www.sql-ledger.com
<dneighbo> markoi 
Action: dneighbo cringes that we end up turning folks away
<jamest> http://www.math.ksu.edu/grad/linbot/
<jamest> is a sample you might be able to see...if I'm not blocking at apache level that is :)
<nickr> dneighbo: ?
<nickr> jamest: maybe you should take on maintainance of it Q:)
<psu> nickr: I'm sure dneighbo would help him find all the bugs ;-)
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<dneighbo> hi alongton 
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<dneighbo> nickr ?
<markoi> Thanks for the link. I'll try that http://www.sql-ledger.com
<dneighbo> im sorry
<dneighbo> i really dont want to point you there would MUCH rather have you use gnue
<dneighbo> but if it fits your needs better so be it :(
<markoi> As I said i do like gnue
<dneighbo> im so sick of having to point people there
<dneighbo> if i get a free weekend soon
<markoi> but I am probably not so hardcore hacker.
<dneighbo> i will probably use their structures and just build gnue front ends to it
<dneighbo> so that i dont have to utter the url any longer
Action: dneighbo sulks back into his corner
<psu> from memory, the class defintions for GL were fairly simple 
<psu> could easily be written as normal SQL tables
<psu> question is - do we want a 2-tier GL at this point?
<dneighbo> psu i so cool
<dneighbo> he is constantly volunteering for stuff
Action: dneighbo loves you man
<psu> or does it simply divert us from geas?
<markoi> I would be happy to help if there is expected real timeschedule. Like a week or a couple of them...
<dneighbo> psu: its a toss up
<psu> problem to me is that a 2-tier gl doesn't go anywhere
<dneighbo> i for example would say you and i probably really arent really hot on tuning up GEAS
<dneighbo> as its not our 'domain'
<psu> as we scrap it the day we have geas v2
<dneighbo> so if people like us time is spent as
<dneighbo> 'do nothing but fondle selves'
<dneighbo> or
<psu> & a gl w/o ap, ar etc is a bit like a bikini
<dneighbo> 'write two tier stuff'
<psu> i.e. what it reveals is interesting
<dneighbo> i would say its advisable to write stuff :)
<psu> but what it conceals is vital
<psu> </sexist>
<dneighbo> what is my mom's saying
<dneighbo> 'Wait holds the wagon down'
<dneighbo> context:
<dneighbo> mom "im leaving"
<dneighbo> deke "wait"
<dneighbo> mom "dont you know wait holds the wagon down"
<dneighbo> deke "hey thats not nice"
<dneighbo> mom "hey is for horses"
<dneighbo> but i lived a cruel childhood :)
<psu> there is somewhere a "cockney" alphabet
<psu> a is for 'orses
<psu> b for mutton
<psu> can;t remember the rest
<psu> helpful, huh?
<dneighbo> there is an old ode my pop would sing....
<dneighbo> three irish men three irish men
<dneighbo> digging in a ditch
<dneighbo> one turned around and called the other one a dirty son of a
<dneighbo> peter murphy had a dog, very dog was he
<dneighbo> had a lady friend jumped up her petticoat and bit her on the 
<dneighbo> cocktail ginger ale five cents a glass
<dneighbo> if you dont believe this stroy you can kiss my 
<dneighbo> ask me no questions and ill tell you no lies
<dneighbo> if you ever get hit with a bucket of schpit be sure to close your eyes
<dneighbo> fly on a horse turd
<dneighbo> soft shit
<ra3vat> cu tomorrow
<ra3vat> bye
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<nickr> weirdos.
<dneighbo> definitely
<nickr> :)
<nickr> thats why I love you guys.
<dneighbo> the new legacy is my sisters are a bit older than i, by about a decade
<dneighbo> so their children were born when i was still living at home
<dneighbo> and they like most new families used grandma and grandpa a lot for babysitting
<dneighbo> so i would torture my nieces and nephews
<dneighbo> the magic word that I made them say was
<dneighbo> 'please stop uncle deke'
<dneighbo> to this day i have cousins in hawaii and california that i have seen like only once or twice and never 'played' with
<dneighbo> and they when tortured by parents or siblings shout
Action: jcater 's gonna start calling dneighbo 'deke'
<dneighbo> 'please stop uncle deke'
<jcater> yo, masta deke 
<ToyMan_mobile> hey dneighbo
<jcater> hmm
<dneighbo> which i find hilarious
<ToyMan_mobile> hi all
<jcater> has a cool ring to it
<psu> the very first ledget I every used 
<jcater> ToyMan_mobile: howdy
<dneighbo> hi ToyMan_mobile you on a mobile device?
<psu> had a reporting tool called "DEKE" 
Action: ToyMan_mobile is checking out his new laptop
<dneighbo> ah
<psu> co-incidence?
<dneighbo> i dont mind being called 'deke'
<psu> Was an old ICL tool
<jcater> psu: was it useful?
<ToyMan_mobile> compaq armada w/ freebsd
<dneighbo> in fact all family and friends i grew up with call me that
<jcater> if so, the namesake doesn't fit
<dneighbo> so its not something i get irrated by
<psu> jcater:  it was sort of 1970s mainframe meets 1980s SQL 
<ToyMan_mobile> what's up with the transfer possibliliteis
<ToyMan_mobile> ?
<dneighbo> if you want to tease me
<dneighbo> call me 'dekey dan'
<psu> i think that counts as a "no"
<dneighbo> as thats what mommy calls me
<dneighbo> as my initials spell out DAN
<ToyMan_mobile> so dneighbo: any win4lin yet?
<dneighbo> not yet
<dneighbo> though my machine is seeming pretty stable and getting all tools installed
<dneighbo> im hoping win4lin wont take more than a day to install
<dneighbo> hopefullly can do this week
<dneighbo> then its 'toy time'
<dneighbo> doo dit dit doo.... 'toy time'
<dneighbo> sung to the mchammer 'hammer time' music
<dneighbo> go toyman go toyman go
[14:17] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<ToyMan_mobile> ok
<ToyMan_mobile> i'm ready
Action: dneighbo recalls your image from the tradeshow
<ToyMan_mobile> my ecom site is really starting to cook
<dneighbo> and the thought of you dancing in hammer clothes dancing brings a humorous image :)
<ToyMan_mobile> gimme some big gold chains
<dneighbo> rofl
<ToyMan_mobile> and lots 'o rings
<dneighbo> yeah big gold chains can cover up anything
<dneighbo> vanilla ice is proof of that
<ToyMan_mobile> is there any way to pull down gnumeric with out taking all of gnome along for the ride?
<dneighbo> not really
<dneighbo> you using debian?
<dneighbo> you might try openoffice instead
<dneighbo> its a bit more of a pig as its all the tools
<dneighbo> BUT
<ToyMan_mobile> freebsd
<dneighbo> i dont think it requires gnome
<ToyMan_mobile> openoffice port is borked for bsd right now
<dneighbo> not only that i have found its much better for ms office compatiablity
<dneighbo> than abiword/gnumeric
<ToyMan_mobile> well, I need tables in my wp, so no abiword yet
<dneighbo> you should be able to get gnumeric kind of stripped down
<ToyMan_mobile> maybe with just gtk
<dneighbo> yes
<dneighbo> and bonobo
<dneighbo> and some other packages
<ToyMan_mobile> mebbe
<dneighbo> but probably dont need WHOLE gnome desktop
<ToyMan_mobile> hope not
<dneighbo> nickr how do you look at a deb package?
<dneighbo> to show what it depends on vs recommends 
<dneighbo> etc
<ToyMan_mobile> the laptop is just a PII 266
<ToyMan_mobile> and I like fluxbox
<nickr> dneighbo: apt-cache show 
<Mr_You> re
<nickr> gnumeric drags a LOT of libraries with it
<nickr> Depends: bonobo (>= 1.0.19), gdk-imlib1, libart2 (>= 1.2.13-5), libaudiofile0 (>= 0.2.3-4), libbonobo2 (>= 1.0.19), libc6 (>= 2.2.4-4), libdb3 (>= 3.2.9-1), libesd0 (>= 0.2.23-1) | libesd-alsa0 (>= 0.2.23-1), libfreetype6, libgal19 (>= 0.19), libgdk-pixbuf-gnome2 (>= 0.16.0-1), libgdk-pixbuf2 (>= 0.16.0-1), libglade-gnome0, libglade0, libglib1.2 (>= 1.2.0), libgnome32 (>= 1.2.13-5), libgnomeprint15 (>= 0.29-1), libgnomesupport0 (>= 1.2.13-5), 
<nickr> Suggests: gnumeric-doc, gnumeric-python, eog, guppi-gnumeric, evolution
<dneighbo> nickr :)
<dneighbo> thats what i was just ready to paste :)
<ToyMan_mobile> hmmm.
<dneighbo> most are libraries though
<nickr> all are actually
<nickr> probably a good percentage of those are optional
<dneighbo> nickr i want to know why on earth gnumeric suggests EVOLUTION
<dneighbo> is that just ximian peddling evolution or what?
<ToyMan_mobile> heh, no thanx to evol
<nickr> dneighbo: Hrm. Maybe it has some sort of funky bindings to use it or integrate scheduling or something.
<ToyMan_mobile> they *never* got the bsd ver. working on that
<dsmith> ximian wants sawfish now anyway
<psu> nickr: just like the old UNIX legend that mail used a routine in one of the games 
<psu> just to stop sysadmins removing them
<nickr> Heh
<nickr> what about gnu hello having a mailreader in it?
<dsmith> THat actually happend in nt
<dsmith> The os/2 hpfs was in some game dll
<Mr_You> unprofessional
<Mr_You> IMO
<nickr> hah
<Mr_You> so are easter eggs IMO
<nickr> hrm.
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<dneighbo> beuno dias senor Chipaca 
<dneighbo> i thought you guys disappeared and were not coming back
<Chipaca> buenos días to you too, dneighbo 
<Chipaca> nope, we're just doing the ERD right now, so it's mostly sit-at-the-blackboard-and-draw
<nickr> thats my favorite stage
<Chipaca> I hope not _too_ many argentinisms get into the ERD, so that you guys can use it also
<jcater> ERD?
<dneighbo> enity relationship diagram?
<dneighbo> er entity
<drochaid> enitrely relative datagram :)
<Chipaca> yeap, although we call it the DER :)
<jcater> I was hoping for "Entirely Relational Databases"
<dneighbo> i thought it was the red spanard dance
<dneighbo> Espanol Rojo Danco
Action: Chipaca holds his putative head
<dneighbo> i.e. we are just doing the erd...
Action: dneighbo thinks they are on to something with the concept of the siesta
<dneighbo> maybe this ERD is good too?
<dneighbo> ;)
<Chipaca> you want the dotty diagram of what we've done sofar?
<dneighbo> sure
<dneighbo> what tool you using to create it?
Action: Chipaca tries to remember /dcc
<dneighbo> send it to info@gnue.org
<dneighbo> or post on the web somewhere
<dneighbo> as dcc fails for most of us
<Chipaca> dneighbo: oh, ok. it's WIP, so not much use outside of a casual chat :)
<dneighbo> gotcha
<dneighbo> go ahead and send when more complete
<dneighbo> glad to see you stopping by
<dneighbo> was worried you decided gnue wasnt right tool for the job
<Chipaca> it is, or it will be, we're not sure on that yet :)
<Chipaca> if what you advertise on www.gnue.org were correct, we'd be out of a job 
<Chipaca> :)
<dneighbo> i just encourage you to remember if it doesnt fit exactly 
<dneighbo> with a little work it probably could :)
<Chipaca> I'm pretty sure it'll fit, and the framework certainly is the right one.
<dneighbo> i was thinking based on the #debian-support channel
<dneighbo> of doing a promotional
<dneighbo> free tacos for every gnue commit that gets approved
<dneighbo> on 'developer days'
<jcater> oooooooo
<dneighbo> jcater: dont worry this would be 'locale' based
<jcater> that include my commits?
<dneighbo> so for you it oculd be 'pulled pork bbq sandwich' or something
Action: Chipaca would rather something like 'free harddrive'
<jcater> nah, donuts, dude
<dneighbo> yeah but donuts dnot match the locale
<jcater> hmmmm
<jcater> southern US
<dneighbo> btw: one of my youth guys works for krispy kreme now
<jcater> greasy, fatty food
<jcater> seems like a match to me
<dneighbo> so we get 4 dozen krispy kreme for free every sunday :)
<jcater> wow
<jcater> I wonder if that's too far a commute for me to go to church
<dneighbo> well we plan on doing virtual church soon
<dneighbo> via streaming video
<jcater> with virtual food?
<dneighbo> but not sure how we can stream the donuts
<Chipaca> you marshall them into XML, of course
<Chipaca> that'll be the first GUI DTD
<dneighbo> hmm i like your thinking Chipaca 
<dneighbo> jcater you ever chow on mexican food?
Action: Chipaca blushes
Action: dneighbo thinks you would like fried icecream
<dneighbo> and churros
Action: dneighbo wonders what argentinian food is most like
<dneighbo> being on the coast probably lots of seafood
<dneighbo> more like spain than mexico
<Mr_You> heh
Action: jcater loves mexican food
<jcater> or at least the Americanized version we have here in Memphis
<dneighbo> jcater: im dissapointed i thought you were truly non foodist like me
<dneighbo> and just loved food
<jcater> I love all food
<dneighbo> regardless of race, religion or color :)
<jcater> I do
<dneighbo> whew
<dneighbo> what is the saying
<dneighbo> the only kind of food i dont like
<dneighbo> is the kind thats not in front of me
<jcater> hehe
Action: Mr_You does not like pecan pies or coconut cake.
<jcater> ya freak
Action: Chipaca rsynced his debian mirror against nfs:/home instead of against /dev/hda2 by mistake
<Chipaca> :(
<Chipaca> pronotti is going to have my guts fer garters
<Chipaca> it was on /home/pronotti/src before I noticed :(
<Mr_You> doh! ;-)
<Mr_You> its looking like AMDs SledgeHammer (scheduled for June 2003) is gonna rock
<Chipaca> mséh
<psu> Chipaca: i shouldn't use any >127 ASCII if I were you, 
<psu> we're on the hunt for i18n testers ;-)
<Mr_You> heh
<Chipaca> psu: 8þ
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<nickr> oh, I've never seen that smiley before
<nickr> =ø
<dneighbo> hey now no fair smiling in non english
<Chipaca> @:| 
<nickr> ððððð!
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<nickr> yeð
<Chipaca> shieße?
Action: psu is away: food
<dneighbo> mmm food
Action: dneighbo is hungry
<dneighbo> drochaid werent you gonna get us some pizza?
<drochaid> dneighbo: sorry, I've had a stomach bug the last few days :((
Action: Chipaca wants to go home and play crossfire
Action: psu is back
Action: Chipaca waves
<Chipaca> later all
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<Mr_You> any speculation on next release time frame?
<Mr_You> or suggest snapshots?
<Mr_You> will do that
<Mr_You> thunderstorm coming, will need to power down
Action: Mr_You &
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<chillywilly> ello people
<psu> hi chillywilly
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<chillywilly> jcater: you there?
<btami> hi all
<psu> hi btami
<dneighbo> chillywilly bad tact
<dneighbo> it should go like this
<chillywilly> did you see the bug in designer where deleting a widget causes a segfault?
<dneighbo> wow, i think i bought more donuts than i can eat
<chillywilly> heheh
<dneighbo> if only jcater were here to share them with
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> woweee, zowee
<btami> sorry, what lol means?
<chillywilly> I have too many krispy kremes in this box
<chillywilly> I can't possibly consume them all
<chillywilly> if only jcater were here....*sigh*
<chillywilly> lol == laugh out loud
<chillywilly> er, laughing
<btami> thanks
<jcater> chillywilly: here
<jcater> chillywilly: that's a known issue w/cvs
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> it's part of our UI reorganization in forms
<chillywilly> the degfault is a designed faeture ;)?
Action: jcater has had 0 time to look at designer since then :(
<chillywilly> er, segfault
<jcater> um, yeah... that's it
<jcater> think of it as "copy protection"
<chillywilly> it's not a bug damnit
<chillywilly> it's a feature
<jcater> as we know you are trying to knock off some ERP package
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> ouch
<chillywilly> I am mortally wounded by that statement
<chillywilly> how dare you accuse me of such vile things
<chillywilly> ;)
<btami> hi jcater, do you want some bugreports right now?
<jcater> btami: not really
<jcater> but I'll take them
<chillywilly> lol
<btami> :)
<btami> i'v made a clean install from CVS
<btami> and forms,reports and navigator wants pyXml
<btami> designer, common OK
<chillywilly> ****************************************************
<chillywilly> PLEASE REPORT ANY BUGS NOT LISTED BELOW AT:
<chillywilly>    http://savannah.gnu.org/support/?group_id=34
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<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> go nuts
<chillywilly> :D
<chillywilly> muwahaahahaha
<chillywilly> are we using the savannash support thing or DCL?
<chillywilly> er, savannah
<jcater> ok
<btami> trying
<jcater> I'll update their setup scripts to not require pyxml
<btami> ok
<jcater> that's a fairly new development :)
<btami> i see :9
<btami> :)
<chillywilly> what's a new development?
<jcater> us not requiring PyXML as a dependency
<chillywilly> why did it go away?
crazymike (~crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> uh oh
<chillywilly> here's trouble
<jcater> python 2.0+ has similar xml support built-in
<chillywilly> I see
<jcater> but when we wrote the parser code, we were using python 1.5.2
<chillywilly> uhuh
<crazymike> chillywilly: bite me mofo
<crazymike> :)
<chillywilly> cool , so one less dependency
<chillywilly> dependency
<jcater> yip
<chillywilly> doh, I spelled that right to beign with
<chillywilly> er, begin
<crazymike> I tried to get "mozilla-composer"
<crazymike> but there ain't no shit like that
<chillywilly> it is called something else then
<chillywilly> figure it out
<crazymike> I am bout to
<crazymike> damn
<chillywilly> apt-cache search foo
<chillywilly> phreak
<chillywilly> apt-get install mozilla may get them all
<chillywilly> maybe not
<dneighbo> please do not use savannah for bugs but rather DCL
<chillywilly> type, mozilla -compose
<dneighbo> chillywilly where did you paste that forom
<dneighbo> from
<dneighbo> can you change that?
<chillywilly> that is from gnue/common/BUGS
<dneighbo> jamest or jcater we need to get bugs@gnuenterprise.org setup
<jcater> what should it do?
<dneighbo> and someone needs to be avaliable for questions
<chillywilly> btw, the DCL link off the main site didn't work for me
<dneighbo> so i can get the email gateweay for dcl up
<dneighbo> jcater i believe it would be a local spool
<dneighbo> and the gateway would read that and create tickets directly form it
<dneighbo> er from
<dneighbo> i am looking into an easy 'create' an account as well
<dneighbo> so users can create own accounts
<chillywilly> how do you access the dcl thing?
<dneighbo> magic
<chillywilly> dcl.gnue.org?
<crazymike> LoadPlugin: failed to initialize shared library /usr/local/j2re1.3.1/plugin/i386
<crazymike> oji.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory]
<dneighbo> gnuenterprise.org/dclgw/
<dneighbo> crazymike stop using java
<dneighbo> problem solved :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<crazymike> what did I do...i don't have java
<dneighbo> j2re1.3.1
<crazymike> if i do it doesn't work
<dneighbo> thats jjava
<crazymike> I know thats what it says
<crazymike> but...whatever
<chillywilly> don't sweat it
<chillywilly> it is just complaining
<dneighbo> we jused to auto kick java folks
<crazymike> fine then kick me
<dneighbo> but we have learned to stop worrying and love the java
<chillywilly> dneighbo: what does that have to do with his browser wanting to load the lpugin?
<chillywilly> er, plugin
<dneighbo> man i give the guy a hard time
<dneighbo> and you two go nuts :)
<crazymike> you said to type mozilla -compose...that is the mail composer
<chillywilly> oops
<crazymike> not that it comes up anyways
<crazymike> but it is
<chillywilly> well just  start moz and click the composer button
<crazymike> i don't have a composer button :)
<chillywilly> I can't see if there's an option anywhere
<chillywilly> yes you do
<chillywilly> it looks like a pencil and paper
<chillywilly> or something
<crazymike> nevermind i found it
<crazymike> i don't have a button
<crazymike> but I found it
<btami> dneighbo: how can i use DCL? (login,passw)
<chillywilly> oh dude
<chillywilly> mozilla -edit
<dneighbo> btami /msg me your email and first,last name
<dneighbo> and i will set you up right now :)
<chillywilly> that's the ticket
<chillywilly> what about eh?
<chillywilly> er me
<jcater> dneighbo: were you asking me to set up a bugs account? 
<jcater> or was that a general musing?
<dneighbo> not directly
Action: jcater is on heavy prescriptions
<dneighbo> saying i will need you or jamest around in next day or two when i hvae time to look at dcl gateway for email
<jcater> so you'll have to ask directly to get anything from me this week :)
<btami> dneighbo: btami@freemail.hu Bajusz Tamás
<jcater> ah
<jcater> ok
<dneighbo> as i believe it requires a 'default' account to get mail from
<jcater> unlike last week, I'm here this week :)
<chillywilly> now do bugs come in as work orders or what?
<chillywilly> can I have an account please?
<chillywilly> I want to play with it
<chillywilly> or do i already have one?
<crazymike>  well, i got to run for a bit
<crazymike> bye
<chillywilly> bye
Nick change: crazymike -> crazymike_dead
<dneighbo> jcater: i need to check at home
<dneighbo> but i think we can do multi stylesheets
<dneighbo> for xslt
<dneighbo> or use entities probably
<dneighbo> so the .xsl file that does the transformation
<dneighbo> can be variable via entities or another style sheet
<dneighbo> so one stylesheet (transformation)
<jcater> cool
<dneighbo> might have <img> persay
<jcater> so you get what I was thinking
<dneighbo> er
<dneighbo> <img location="somepath">
<dneighbo> and instead have
<dneighbo> <img location=&logo;>
<jcater> well
<dneighbo> and &logo is an entity defined in
<jcater> that's not exactly what I was thinking
<jcater> but it's a start
<dneighbo> i think it is im just not explaining it well
<dneighbo> and used bad example
<dneighbo> im thinking merged style sheets would be best
<dneighbo> worse case we use one .xsl file that is the template
<dneighbo> and you merely change it
<dneighbo> but as you stated then if we change ours you have to 'manage' your custom one
<dneighbo> where if we 'abstract' some things
<dneighbo> then we can change the base transformation and you dont have to modify your custom ones
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<jcater> sounds cool
Action: jcater really needs to read up on XSLT
<jcater> you recommend any books?
<jcater> or did you just learn online?
<dneighbo> xslt by oreilly is good
<dneighbo> jcater i installe dand used reportlab a bit
<dneighbo> in the past
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<jcater> dneighbo: should I be asking questions like those on the "Dev" mailing list or the "Discuss" mailing list?
Action: jcater is never sure
<chillywilly> I thought we don't really have a discuss list anymore
<chillywilly> as gnue.org lists went to gnu.org
<jcater> we have gnue@gnu.org (general discussion)
<chillywilly> I think it's a design decision
<jcater> gnue-dev@gnu.org (development)
<jcater> gnue-announce@gnu.org (announcements only)
<chillywilly> so gnue-dev would be more appropriate
<jcater> ok
<chillywilly> but that's MHO
<jcater> I'd tend to agree
<jcater> but was wanting someone else's feedback :)
<Harald1> did anybody answer chillywilly's savannah vs. dcl question?
<jcater> we tend to ignore chillywilly
<Harald1> chillywilly: btw. I add the bug to dcl, and jcater already gave feedback
<dneighbo> jcater: dev list
<dneighbo> dcl not savannah Harald1 
<chillywilly> :P
Action: chillywilly sobs in his beer'
<dneighbo> jcater main reason i want on the developers list
<dneighbo> is i dont want everyone and their brother who doesnt actually use gnue or isnt willing to help
<dneighbo> losing us in a quagmire of debates
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> what about their mother?
<chillywilly> we don't want that bitch tripping us up either ;)
<chillywilly> sorry, I need help
<chillywilly> medication even'
<chillywilly> some doobie snacks perhaps
<chillywilly> hey fellas
<chillywilly> what's a good old-style font
<chillywilly> like declaration of independence style font
<chillywilly> anyone?
<chillywilly> zapf chancery is purty cool
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<btami> by
btami (btami@dial-3-10.emitel.hu) left irc: 
<chillywilly> you mean you don't want to debate about standards and shit?
<chillywilly> and have a nice flame war or something ;)
<chillywilly> my ERP standard is better than your ERP standard you money grubbing enterprise nazi
<chillywilly> heh, the 'nil' font
<chillywilly> wtf were they thinking?
<dneighbo> chillywilly i like to debate
<dneighbo> when code isnt involved :)
crazymike_dead (crazymike@mke-65-31-133-230.wi.rr.com) left irc: 
<dneighbo> if i want somethign useful soon i would rather not make it a lets 'vote' proposition :)
<dneighbo> but i think we do want feedback and comments
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> I understand perfectly
<chillywilly> dudes, this blows
Action: chillywilly is having fun with the gimp
<dneighbo> hey what you do with you gimp we dont want to know about ok this is a family channel
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> how the heck do I move  dyntext?
<jcater> with a dynbulldozer
<dneighbo> you dont thats what the 'hired help is for'
<chillywilly> umm, yea and they hang out in #gimp ;)
<nickr> chillywilly: with the movie tool
<nickr> chillywilly: the movish tool
<chillywilly> yep, I got it down now
<nickr> chillywilly: you grab the text and drag it around. Its basically moving the layer.
<chillywilly> booyah!
<dneighbo> ok im a list with a lot of accountants
<dneighbo> i sent some solutinos to the list
<dneighbo> i got this back (too funny)
<dneighbo> Your message
<dneighbo>   Subject: Re: [adaytum-users] Re: Forecast Help
<dneighbo> was not delivered to:
<dneighbo>   Shaun.Richards@enron.com
<dneighbo> :)
<chillywilly> rofl
<dneighbo> 'unknown' recipient :)
Action: dneighbo wonders if fastest way to dispose of email evidence it to wipe the user account and check the 'delete' mail spool option :)
<nickr> Heh.
<nickr> its still recoverable though
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<chillywilly> how can I make the image size bigger without fucking anything up?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<nickr> canvas size under image
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<chillywilly> wb jcater
<jcater> thx
<dneighbo> just sent you a reply i didnt want to :)
<dneighbo> as im so afraid you will like the product too much and i abhor its parent company :)
<jcater> eh?
<jcater> I didn't think ReportLabs was free
<jcater> only their PDF creation library
<jcater> btw, I have looked at kugar
<jcater> it's not quite what I envision
<jcater> Gnue reports to be
<jcater> s/quite/
<dneighbo> being so tied to kparts immediately kills it for me :)
<jcater> yeah
<dneighbo> but the general concept was what i had wanted as a QUICK dirty start :)
<dneighbo> but i think we are beyond that now
<dneighbo> as we have a start for 'server'
<dneighbo> and honestly our markup engine ithink is more flexible :)
<dneighbo> and with xslt we will kick some butt when we have a standard
<dneighbo> but mostly i think (maybe naively so)
<jcater> my only concern for our route is the speed of transformations
<dneighbo> that since we are talking xml here that our current designer wont need too much to have visual designer :)
<jcater> but, we'll see :)
<dneighbo> jcater i expect them to be slow on bigger reports until everything is streamed
<dneighbo> however in my world i think it will be huge performance INCREASE
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> as currently they build printed reports
<dneighbo> then build html reports
<dneighbo> then build pdf reports
<dneighbo> every time doing requeries
<dneighbo> here you would do 1 query to get the datafile
<dneighbo> then 3 tranformations
<dneighbo> so while the transformation might be marginally slower
<dneighbo> not having to requery to get a dataset each time is a huge performance boost and resource boost
<dneighbo> a ton of reports never even get 'viewed' so are drawn in vain
<dneighbo> you could do a caching sequence
<dneighbo> so say every report for month end for every department gets its .xml data file built
<jcater> yip
<dneighbo> but not until someone goes to VIEW the friggin report does it do the transformation
<dneighbo> and then it 'caches' it so the next person doesnt need to rerun the transformation
<dneighbo> even if transformation slower this does two things
<dneighbo> a. it does transform unless used (big savigns)
<dneighbo> b. it distributes the transformation to the user
<dneighbo> so instead of a report taking an hour (month end financials for all departments)
<dneighbo> it might take 15 minutes up front
<dneighbo> then each user seeing report for first time has a small (minute or two)
<dneighbo> tranformation time
<dneighbo> i hope this makes sense
<dneighbo> but in a LARGE enivornment this is where i can see us just kicking ass all over crystal reports and friends
Action: dneighbo must have lost them all :)
<jcater> I agree
Action: jcater detests crystal reports, btw
<dneighbo> i havent used in a long time
<dneighbo> i hear its much better
<dneighbo> but on principle alone i dont like it :)
<dneighbo> only thing more evil was a custom report system i maintained at one time in Mumps (M)
<dneighbo> btw M is pretty cool language
<dneighbo> chilly you would like it 
<dneighbo> its considered 'post relational'
<dneighbo> its not really objects but it is
<dneighbo> its heirarchial data structures
<dneighbo> http://www.intersystems.com/
<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> http://www.intersystems.com/testimonials/success/omega.html was old employer too funny they are on there
<dneighbo> Cach? also plays the leading role in Omega's latest growth activity. "Cach? has been instrumental in the development of our GUI Windows product, and we're finding it to be very well-accepted in the marketplace as an open database that has very high levels of performance," said Omega's president, Pat Stoner.
<dneighbo> thats funny
<dneighbo> the gui was written in delphi
<dneighbo> we couldnt even use thier activex components cause they were so bad
<dneighbo> we wrote our own
<jcater> lol
<dneighbo> :)
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<javaguy> CW: you awake?
<dneighbo> jcater responded to your email and must leave
<jcater> k
<jcater> you be back on tonight?
<dneighbo> javaguy he was spouting curses at gimp a little while ago
<dneighbo> yeah
<javaguy> LOL!  Ok...
<dneighbo> i have to do the bills and develop a budget for the household tonight
<javaguy> derek: CW is running GEAS?
<dneighbo> but hoping we can iron on some reports
<dneighbo> bbl
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<javaguy> jcater: you the only one here?
<javaguy> care to field some questions?
<jcater> I can try
<jcater> depends on the topic
<javaguy> Well, I was looking over the GComm/GNU-RPC code
<javaguy> looks like it might handle what I'm looking for (distributed computing using SOAP)
<javaguy> firstly, does the soaplib library handle transport, or just serialization/de-serialization and request/response?
<jcater> um
<jcater> I think the latter
<jcater> I've only minimally looked into soaplib
<javaguy> Ok.  Then, I would need to attach it to a transport vehicle of some sort, such as Apache?
<jcater> you might want to look at medusa
<jcater> with is an asynchronous transport server written in python
<jcater> that's what I'll be using for the transport in gnurpc
<javaguy> Ah...Ok
Action: javaguy updates his todo list
<javaguy> so, GNU-RPC is seperate from GComm?
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<jcater> well
<javaguy> hello crazymike
Action: jcater tries to remember what GComm refers to
<jcater> are you referring to "GNue-Common" 
<jcater> or the gcomm drivers
<crazymike> javaguy: hi
<jcater> if the latter, then gcomm was the "working" name for gnu-rpc
<jcater> hence the directory structure :)
<javaguy> the gcomm drivers.  The SOAP driver is the one I'm interested in specifically
<javaguy> Ok.  And the SOAP driver for GNU-RPC incorporates/will incorporate this medusa transport?
<jcater> yes
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<jcater> however, the soap driver isn't very far along
<jcater> my first "Test" case was xml-rpc because of its simplicity
<jcater> my thinking was that as soon as I had a working xml-rpc
<jcater> soap would be a small jump away
<javaguy> what sort of timeframe are you looking at before GEAS is ready for alpha testing w/ SOAP?
<chillywilly> crazymike: whirrred
<jcater> oooo
<jcater> javaguy: we just started looking at reimplementing geas using gnue-common
<jcater> there has been no code to that effect
<jcater> so that's a tough question
<chillywilly> real soon now (tm)
<crazymike> chillywilly: ???
<jcater> I honestly don't expect there to be much to geas
<javaguy> heya, CW
<chillywilly> crazymike: I said wassup my nick-a
<crazymike> chillywilly: ahhhh
<jcater> as much of its functionality will come from stuff in gnue-common
<jcater> but it's real hard to say
<crazymike> whats with the (tm)???
<chillywilly> a joke
<crazymike> ok
<chillywilly> I was talking about geas
<chillywilly> d00d
<crazymike> ok
<chillywilly> sup javaguy
<javaguy> CW: you are running the GEAS re-write?
<chillywilly> um, no
<chillywilly> reinhard is the official geas masta
<chillywilly> I got some idears I have been working on
<chillywilly> ;)
<crazymike> wow...cute
<jcater> chillywilly just hangs around
<jcater> he doesn't actually do anything
<jcater> :D
Action: jcater ducks from flying trout
<chillywilly> whatever
<javaguy> Is there anything I could do speed the process along?
<javaguy> I would even be willing to write python code...
<crazymike> d00d, no offense, but it needs alot
<chillywilly> try /msg fool
<jcater> someone needs to jumpstart the recoding process
<crazymike> ???
<chillywilly> and I know it needs actual 'content'
<chillywilly> I hate html
<crazymike> why /msg???
<chillywilly> because I only feel like talking to you
<chillywilly> on that issue
<crazymike> ahhh
<chillywilly> that's what friggin /msg was invented for
<jcater> javaguy: what kind of timeframe are you needing?
<javaguy> no hard-and-fast timeline.  This isn't for production, or anything
<javaguy> just me getting my hands dirty with SOAP
<jcater> ah
<jcater> that sounds backwards
<jcater> "getting my hands dirty with SOAP"
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> heheh
<crazymike> dpkg: `start-stop-daemon' not found on PATH.
<crazymike> dpkg: `install-info' not found on PATH.
<crazymike> dpkg: `update-rc.d' not found on PATH.
<crazymike> dpkg: 4 expected program(s) not found on PATH.
<crazymike> NB: root's PATH should usually contain /usr/local/sbin, /usr/sbin and /sbin.
<crazymike> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (2)
<chillywilly> wow
<chillywilly> what did you do?
<jcater> ooo
<jcater> I've done that before
<chillywilly> how?
<jcater> um
<jcater> trying to second-guess debian's install program
<jcater> installing from debian potato cd
<jcater> and on first reboot (before performing install of rest of programs)
<chillywilly> well this is an already running sid syste, he's got
<chillywilly> er, system
<jcater> changing my /etc/apt/sources.list to point to woody
<jcater> I ended up having to copy those 2 scripts from another debian machione
<jcater> and doing an apt-get dist-upgrade
<chillywilly> heh
<jcater> or an apt-get -f install 
<jcater> I forget which
<jcater> I think it was the latter, come to think of it
<chillywilly> crazymike just likes to create more work for me ;)
<jcater> I see
<jcater> well
<jcater> that's what friends are for, right?
<jcater> :)
Action: crazymike is just stooopid
Action: crazymike is trying to learn Linux cold turkey, of course he is gonna fsck shit up
<chillywilly> I don't get it
<chillywilly> you must've fucked you PATH
<chillywilly> er, our
<chillywilly> your
<crazymike> i have no clue
<jcater> did it ask you
<chillywilly> what the?
<jcater> "Doing this will really screw up your system
<chillywilly> Unpacking cupsys (from .../cupsys_1.1.14-3_i386.deb) ...
<chillywilly> Setting up libslp1 (1.0.8a-2) ...
<chillywilly> NOTE: You don't seem to have a multicast route configured. You may need to 
<chillywilly> add a multicast route by running the command:
<chillywilly> route add -net 224.0.0.0 netmask 240.0.0.0 dev <interface>
<chillywilly> You can add this command to your network init scripts to do this automatically
<jcater> If you really want to remove this package, please type
<chillywilly> at startup.
<jcater> "Yes, I know what I'm doing."
<chillywilly> Setting up cupsys-pstoraster (1.1.14-3) ...
<jcater> ?
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> cupsys installed for me
<chillywilly> on your box crazymike
<crazymike> i dunno
<crazymike> i suck, i guess
<chillywilly> error messages
<chillywilly> it's all about the error messages
<chillywilly> you su'd over to root to try and install cupsys?
<crazymike> no
<chillywilly> what did you do then?
<crazymike> i opened my root terminal to try and install cupsys
<chillywilly> well dude
<chillywilly> that -p option
<chillywilly> tells it tto use your environment variables
<chillywilly> and you obviously do not have /sbin, etc. in your path
<chillywilly> that's all
<chillywilly> change it by right clicking
<chillywilly> then remove that switch
<chillywilly> or
<chillywilly> add thise to your path'
<chillywilly> those dirs it didn't like
<crazymike> take out the "-p"
<chillywilly> yep
<crazymike> gnome-terminal -e "su -p" -t "Root" 
<chillywilly> or add those dirs to your path
Action: chillywilly has the latter
<chillywilly> just copy
<crazymike> gnome-terminal -e "su" -t "Root" 
<chillywilly> /home/danielb/.bash* to your home dir
<chillywilly> and you'll have those system dirs in your path and you can leave the -p
<chillywilly> PATH=$PATH:$HOME/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/Acrobat4/bin:/usr/X11/bin:./:/usr/lib/postgresql/bin:$PATH
<chillywilly> that's in my .bash_profile on your box
<chillywilly> (my account on your box that is)
<crazymike> yeah
<crazymike> how do I get to cups now???
<chillywilly> ummm
<chillywilly> you open http://localhost:634 in galeon
<chillywilly> (not 100% sure about the port number)
<chillywilly> configure that sucer
<chillywilly> as I already installed it
<chillywilly> er, sucker
<crazymike> that connection was refused
<chillywilly> then the number is wrong
<chillywilly> you might need to open that port though
<chillywilly> lemme look at my stuff
<chillywilly> oh cool new injet drivers
<chillywilly> hp inkjets work perfectly now as of 3/22
<chillywilly> groovy
<chillywilly> I can't fidn the damn port number
<chillywilly> this is annoying
<crazymike> sorry
<chillywilly> just help me look ;)
<crazymike> where in the hell am I supposed to look???
<chillywilly> anywhere
<chillywilly> there's a damn documentation package but I can't recall the name
<chillywilly> bah, I'll try google
<crazymike> http://www.cups.org/documentation.html
<chillywilly> finally
<chillywilly> http://localhost:631
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> I need to write that down in my notes
<chillywilly> I always forget it
<chillywilly> done
<chillywilly> but you need samba setup first if you're going to share your dad's printer
Nick change: javaguy -> jgDinner
<crazymike> dude...I am going to go to bed
<crazymike> I'll probably be at the shop at 7:00
<crazymike> but you have to bed there by 7:30
<crazymike> cause I guess thats when it starts or some shit
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<jcater> damnm dude
<jcater> I'm on the wx-dev list
<jcater> and there's a big, big argument going on :)
<chillywilly> why are you going there at 7?
<nickr> chillywilly: what you need to do is remember that cups impliments the IPP standard, therefore you can grep /etc/services for it
<crazymike> chillywilly: I dunno, i might not get there til 7:30
<chillywilly> doh
<crazymike> I dunno, depends on when I wake up
<chillywilly> ok
<crazymike> good night
<chillywilly> night
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<derek> jcater which one?
<derek> i have been spooling wx to dev null of late
<jcater> roadmap to 2.4.0
<derek> the traffic on the dev and main list there have like multiplied by 10 in last 2 weeks
<derek> im talking like 150 messages on a weekend
<jcater> yeah
<derek> all in all i think thats good
<derek> as more people using wx is probalby better for us :)
<jcater> yip
<jcater> I'm replying to one of the posts
<jcater> saying, yes wx is a good toolkit, whether it's a mess internally or not
<jcater> (e.g., www.gnue.org uses it)
<jcater> :)
<jcater> nothing like a relative plug
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<jcater> s/relative/related
<derek> grr printing doesnt seem to work
<derek> not what i fricking need
<derek> carpine:~# lpq
<derek> Printer: lp@carpine
<derek>  Queue: 3 printable jobs
<derek>  Server: pid 23927 active
<derek>  Unspooler: pid 23928 active
<derek>  Status: waiting for subserver to exit at 12:40:26.363
<derek>  Rank   Owner/ID                  Class Job Files                 Size Time
<derek> stalled(258sec) laurie@aegagrus+534 A   534 /tmp/gv_3ca12dcf_1_ 917603 12:37:18
<derek> 2      laurie@aegagrus+572          A   572 /tmp/gv_3ca12e70_1_ 917603 12:39:58
<derek> 3      laurie@aegagrus+578          A   578 (STDIN)             475973 12:40:26
<derek> carpine:~# 
<derek> looks like they are in the queue
<derek> can i tell what the hell is worng with them/
<derek> or fix them?
<derek> i whacked that stalled one
<derek> Printer lp@carpine:
<derek>   checking perms 'laurie@aegagrus+534'
<derek>   dequeued 'laurie@aegagrus+534'
<derek> carpine:~# lpq
<derek> Printer: lp@carpine
<derek>  Queue: 2 printable jobs
<derek>  Server: no server active
<derek>  Status: lp: Update_status: no identifier for 'hfA534' at 12:42:23.019
<derek>  Rank   Owner/ID                  Class Job Files                 Size Time
<derek> 1      laurie@aegagrus+572          A   572 /tmp/gv_3ca12e70_1_ 917603 12:39:58
<derek> 2      laurie@aegagrus+578          A   578 (STDIN)             475973 12:40:26
<derek> carpine:~# 
<jcater> you might need to restart x
<derek> but still nothing printing
<derek> any suggestions?
<derek> restart x?
<jcater> err, restart lpd
<jcater> (Sorry)
<chillywilly_> lol
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Nick change: chillywilly_ -> chillywilly
<jcater> as sometimes a hung job never fully releases lpd
<derek> lpd or lprng
<jcater> err, lprng
Action: derek needs a faster print server :)
<derek> restarted and it actived next job
<derek> but still nothing prints
<derek> since it was a print of same thing it likely will stall as well
<derek> its odd i dont hear the machine chugging away but nothing is printing
<jcater> what was it?
Action: derek slaps it a few times (with a smelly trout of course)
<jcater> if the pr0n had a lot of gradients, that could cause a lot of processing
<derek> jcater: a calendar
<derek> yes lots of gradients
<derek> picture of a nice color train
<derek> then the calendar portion
<derek> still says active but nothing
<derek> im gonna kill it
<derek> grr must you restart lprng after every deleted item in the queue?
<derek> seems awful mundane
<derek> ok same thing with last job it seems....
<derek> http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/
<derek> very simple to print
<derek> wtf
<derek> grrrr
<derek> forgot brittanys friend knocked over server when playing Xmen the other day
<derek> it jostled parallel cable loose
<derek> now it prints fine
Action: derek wonders why it doesnt give some indication it couldnt find printer
<Maniac> does mdean ever pop in (not JUST his IRC client)
<Maniac> ?
<Maniac> lp mdean
<mdean> :-P
<Maniac> aha!
<Maniac> howdee!
<jcater> wassup mdean
<Maniac> mdippity dawg!
<mdean> high
<Maniac> your high?
<jcater> how high?
<mdean> some might think so
<Maniac> how's work?
<mdean> sux
<Maniac> really?
<mdean> not working with linux, so yeah
<Maniac> ah
<derek> wassup
<derek> mdean liked your FSF response
<derek> i plan on calling brad as its really ticking me off
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> good response
<derek> 3 times i have specifically said we will do what it takes to make our stuff work for you
<mdean> the latest one?
<derek> ys
<derek> yes
<derek> we said we would build to SPEC
<derek> we were told no you dont do emacs
<derek> now they use something that doesnt use emacs either
<chillywilly> what are you dudes talking about
<chillywilly> ?
<derek> on contact manager i told them we will build to SPEC
<mdean> I almost told him it reminded me of a company choosing a proprietary software package over a Free one because the proprietary one had all the features
Action: Maniac seconds chillywilly
<derek> then voila im told they are writing something in house
<derek> from scratch
<derek> i went nuts
<derek> mdean: that was SUPPOSED to be the point of my email
<derek> RMS says who cares if prop software has all the features live w/o them for freedom
<Maniac> mailing list emails?
<derek> but when it comes to own packages
<derek> ditch at first site of package with MORE features
<derek> sigh
<derek> psu for the record everything from mdean talking to now please do not put in the kernel cousin for political reasons
<derek> i have no shame in saying it but dont want to air dirty laundry more publicly than necessary
<jcater> woohoo
<jcater> I plugged us on wx-dev
<jcater> :)
<derek> chillywilly: talking about internal FSF politics
Action: jcater is trying to get into that habit
<derek> you are learning well young jedi knight
<jcater> wx is getting very bloated though
<jcater> they have wxDB, wxDBTables, ...
<derek> yeah i see that
<derek> they need to go to Delphi module
<chillywilly> heh
<derek> make lightweight components
<jcater> sigh
<derek> and let 'third party' do the rest
<jcater> that's your solution to everything
<jcater> "marriage problems?"
<derek> i.e. i dont want 15 different fricken nutty widgets
<derek> give me base widgets
<jcater> "hey, use the delphi model of lightweight communication"
<derek> and add in the others 
<derek> jcater: rofl
<derek> i think delphi is a good tool in some areas on in others
<chillywilly> delphi shmelphi
<derek> i think its VCL is best component model i have seen to date
<Maniac> delphi r0x0rs my b0x0rs
<derek> and their approach of go light and let other users contribute the rest via bring in at own necessity was a good one
Action: chillywilly watches derek stroke off to delphi
<derek> it would be like us demanding we load ALL dbdrivers in common
<derek> even if you only use one
<derek> i much rather like the plug what you need approach
<derek> grrr be back in a minute (not having vts sucks)
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<chillywilly> haha
Nick change: jgDinner -> javaguy
<chillywilly> wb javaguy
<javaguy> thanx, CW
<javaguy> Is GEAS/GNUe going to be using WSDL?  If so, I could put together some docs for the core business objects...
<jcater> WSDL?
<javaguy> Web Service Description Language
<jcater> ack
<chillywilly> dotgnu will
<chillywilly> most likely
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> I'm not familiar w/that
<javaguy> I can pull the URL for the spec, if you like
<jcater> sure
<javaguy> dotgnu is FSF's implementation of .NET?
<jcater> soemthing like that
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> I am sure some dotgnu + gnue interfacing will happen some day
<chillywilly> I dunno when though
<jcater> that's easy
<jcater> as soon as someone contribs it
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> hehe ;P
<chillywilly> fuck I am tired
<chillywilly> need caffiebe
<chillywilly> er, caffiene
<javaguy> here it is: http://www.w3.org/TR/wsdl
<chillywilly> is it an xml thingy?
<chillywilly> anyone know where there's a nice little graphic of the liberty bell?
<javaguy> WSDL is not specific to .NET.  It's main use is to document the interface used by a SOAP-accessible service, but there's nothing preventing it from being used by other services
<chillywilly> I guess it is in xml ;)
<javaguy> Yes, it is an XML thingy ;)
<chillywilly> hrrrm, so to describe a corba service, or xml-rpc, or whatever?
<chillywilly> http?
<jcater> I describe all my interfaces
<jcater> they are labeled "enter at your own risk"
<chillywilly> hey dude this sounds nifty
<chillywilly> maybe we should use it in gnurpc
<javaguy> Yes.  Seeing as SOAP is a direct descendant of XML-RPC, it should rather easy to use WSDL in conjunction with XML-RPC
<chillywilly> well they talk about using http get/post and mime to
<chillywilly> too
Action: chillywilly wants an irc interface to geas ;)
<jcater> gack
<chillywilly> that would be fun
<javaguy> not sure what changes (if any) would need to be made IOT support CORBA
<jcater>  /msg geas give me a all the rows from objec txxxx
<jcater> <geas> Does not compute. No object txxxx
<chillywilly>  /msg geas select s from Professors where s.name == "billyboy"
<chillywilly> (OQL queries)
<chillywilly> I dunno
<jcater> OQL uses select statements?
<chillywilly> yes, it is VERY SQL-like
<jcater> is there a python OQL parser?
<chillywilly> no, but we shoudl write one
<chillywilly> ;)
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<javaguy> not sure about, WSDL, but SOAP can be used over pretty much any communications protocols
<chillywilly> there's some sample grammar
<jcater> run!
<chillywilly> it returns collections like basg or sets of objects
<chillywilly> er, bags
<chillywilly> also
<javaguy> The book I'm studying right now discusses using http(s), MIME w/ attachments, JMS (Java Messaging Service)
<chillywilly> statements to creta an object
<chillywilly> er, create
<javaguy> Probably a few others I've missed
<chillywilly> supports a lot of SQLisms too, for completeness
<javaguy> All you have to be able to do is send and receive XML messages
<chillywilly> OQL is very clsoe to SQL-92 (says it in my book ;) )
<chillywilly> er, close
<chillywilly> extensions concern object-oriented notions like complex objects, object identity, path expressions, polymorphism, operation invocation, and late binding
<chillywilly> blah blah
<jcater> bah
<chillywilly> you can clal object methods with it
Action: jcater goes back to gnue-reports coding
<chillywilly> er, call
<chillywilly> and you can even refer to parent objects and hve the instances it pulls be derived form those and it doesn't make a difference
<javaguy> CW: The only reference I could find for ODMG was a pitch to buy a book.  Is there anything open?
<jcater> bah
<jcater> you young object wippersnapers
<chillywilly> I bought the book
<chillywilly> jcater: I like SQL
<jcater> you should make a pin-on button
<jcater> like "I like Ike"
<chillywilly> uh, sure dude
<chillywilly> javaguy: I would look at Java Data Objects thing, but the Java binding is lame, imho and it has some really shitty EULA on it
<chillywilly> I dunno how they can put an EULA on a spec
<chillywilly> it's stupid
<chillywilly> the ODMG's answer for java is to use some outside property files to express what fields/attributes of an object are 'persistent'....it is just lame
<chillywilly> the smalltalk binding qwould probably be geared more towards how one would do it in python
<chillywilly> sine they are loosely typed langauges
<chillywilly> javaguy: btw, that odmg.txt file is my notes on the standard ;)
<javaguy> Cool.  I'll take a look at it.  There are Java interfaces available off odmg.org, so I'm not flying completely blind... ;)
<chillywilly> yea, I downloaded those
<chillywilly> they help
<chillywilly> escpecially the 2.0 one
<chillywilly> imho
<chillywilly> the 3.0 binding is stupid
<javaguy> Yeah.  JDO looked like something we could probably live without...
<javaguy> hmm...I think I got the 3.0 bindings.  I'll see if I can't find the 2.0 bindings
<chillywilly> I am trying to incorporate the standard somewhat into our overall architecture
<javaguy> Of course, this will all be implemented under the covers by the python guys, so I don't need to be too knowledgable
<chillywilly> I read the whole book already
<javaguy> do I?
<jcater> python guys?
<chillywilly> I don't know of anyone else implementing it
<jcater> we have python guys?
<chillywilly> we are probably going to implement it
<chillywilly> (I hope)
<chillywilly> we'll see
<javaguy> that'd be you, jcater ;)
<chillywilly> heh, geas people == python guys now
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> sigh
<chillywilly> the current app server is going bye bye
<dneighbo> i vote the button (i like ike)
<dneighbo> s
<jcater> actually, I'm ready to get the ball rolling w/geas
<dneighbo> as
<dneighbo> "I give a Poop about OOP"
<jcater> rofl
<dneighbo> or like woody the owl says
<chillywilly> hehe
<dneighbo> give a poop
<dneighbo> use oop
<jcater> I get my Kix
<jcater> using WX
<chillywilly> jcater: hack on gnurpc some more den ;)
<jcater> gnurpc isn't the geas hangup, dude
<jcater> we need a file format
<chillywilly> odl!
<dneighbo> jcater: lets use the kiss anthem 'lets put the X in wx'
<chillywilly> :P
<jcater> :)
Action: chillywilly os obssessed with ODMG
<jcater> fwiw
<chillywilly> muuuwahahahah
<jcater> I think we need an "appserver" directory in cvs
<jcater> under gnue/
<dneighbo> we had one
<chillywilly> 10-4 that good buddy
<jcater> to house the new appserver :)
<dneighbo> it got renamed geas
<chillywilly> I agree
<jcater> why?
<chillywilly> heheh
<jcater> oh, why?
<dneighbo> um why did the old dir used to be called gnuef?
<chillywilly> well reinhard said that's what he wanted to name it
<chillywilly> it was called objectserver
<chillywilly> not appserver ;)
<chillywilly> I saw it
<dneighbo> chillywilly: ah yes you are correct it was object server not app server
<jcater> I just don't think 'geas' fits with the naming scheme
<jcater> "GNUe GEAS?"
<jcater> but, whatever :)
<jcater> I was thinking we'd leave the existing tree there
<jcater> for reference
<javaguy> So, are we going forward with the WSDL?
<jcater> eh?
<jcater> I'd imagine gnurpc would eventually expose that
<chillywilly> is WDSL like a common way to describe what operations are exposed?
<jcater> dudes!
<chillywilly> bah, I should just read it when I geta chance
<jcater> I already got a private email response
<dneighbo> yeah ted
<chillywilly> about what?
<jcater> from my post to the wx-dev group
<chillywilly> uh?
<chillywilly> oooh, nifty
<dneighbo> sorry 'bill and ted's excellent adventure flash backs'
<dneighbo> so share the response man
<jcater> Hi Jason,
<jcater> I saw your post on wx-dev. I wasn't aware of GNUe or that it was done in
<jcater> wxPython. Do you contribute to wxPython or subscribe to the wx-python users
<jcater> list? 
<javaguy> The way I've seen it used is mainly as a convenience for SOAP, but I see no reason why it can't be used in conjunction with other RPC mechanisms
<jcater> he's from the PythonCard project
<dneighbo> why does pythoncard sound familiar?
<chillywilly> javaguy: well they have other bindings there http, mime, etc. they say you can use any protocol right?
<chillywilly> I dunno, I'll let jcater worry abot it ;P
<javaguy> yes.  So long as you can transmit and receive XML docs
<chillywilly> me is just trying to immerse himself in odmg land
<chillywilly> woops
<chillywilly> me == /me
<jcater> ah
<jcater> so our report definitions could be SOAP
<chillywilly> funky-butt-lovin
<jcater> they could just be an encapsulated SOAP command
Action: jcater ducks from flying curses
<chillywilly> I have yet to get myself into the whole xml, soap, w3c craziness
<chillywilly> it's on my TODO
<javaguy> come on CW, it's fun! ;)
<chillywilly> I am sure it is
<chillywilly> I read the w3schools titorials
<chillywilly> some of them
<chillywilly> but if I don;t use it
<chillywilly> out the window it goes
<chillywilly> I forget it
<javaguy> The XP work group seems to be the most active.  I would start there
<chillywilly> XPath?
<javaguy> Lotsa cool stuff to read: XML Schema, XSLT, XML-RPC
<javaguy> XML Protocol
<chillywilly> yea, I want to read some of that stuff soon
<chillywilly> but I was in c++ land for a while
<chillywilly> and now odmg land
Action: chillywilly contributed some patched to gnu common c++
<chillywilly> er, patches
<chillywilly> the DOM looks interesting too
<javaguy> Oh, there's also a spec for using SOAP over NNTP...
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> you could also do SOAP over IIOAP via CORBA
<chillywilly> er, IIOP
<javaguy> yeah, I've heard they're working on a CORBA-SOAP bridge
<chillywilly> javaguy: you look at SOUP?
<chillywilly> gnome's SOAP thingy
<javaguy> No.  I haven't done too much w/ GNU Windows^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGNOME since I moved over to XFCE
<chillywilly> and KDE is not windows-like?
<nickr> ugh, xfce
<chillywilly> I think they are both a bit windowsish
<chillywilly> but then again windows didn't even invent the desktop idea
<chillywilly> they stole it
<chillywilly> so maybe we are all Xerox-like
<javaguy> didn't say it wasn't.  They're both rather bloated, but hey people must like them, or else they wouldn't be in active development
<chillywilly> the days of me using onyl a wm are over
<chillywilly> I just like my Gnoem
<chillywilly> er Gnome
<chillywilly> xfce is a desktop too isn't it?
<javaguy> I guess.  Depends on how you define 'desktop'
<javaguy> It has it's own file manager, and it has event sounds
<javaguy> It looks to be a CDE clone, if you've ever used Solaris
<chillywilly> KDE was/is supposed to be a CDE look-a-like
<chillywilly> or something
<javaguy> Not any version of CDE I've used
<javaguy> As you say, it looks more like windows
<nickr> xfce is faicrly similar to CDE
<chillywilly> well I dunno wtf CDE looks like
<chillywilly> solaris is going to Gnome anyway ;)
<javaguy> I'm running 2.7 at work.  Haven't seen 9.  Is it shipping w/ GNOME?
<chillywilly> I dunno when they are going to ship Gnome with it
<chillywilly> they are supposed to be switching to Gnome
<javaguy> Didn't they say that like a year ago?
<chillywilly> yea, but they are slow
<chillywilly> and Gnome 2 is late
<chillywilly> maybe they are waiting for Gnome 2
<chillywilly> who knows
<chillywilly> they are hacking on the ATK I think
<chillywilly> accessibility toolkit
<chillywilly> I think Sun is doing that
<nickr> yea
<nickr> Gnome 2 looks sweet
<chillywilly> so I hear
<chillywilly> I wish they would make some debs so I could try it out
<chillywilly> I don't have the space to compile it
<chillywilly> oh well it will just be that much more fun when it actually gets into debian
<nickr> wait for woody+1
<chillywilly> when do you think they will release woody?
<chillywilly> os that the release of woody you are talking about?
<chillywilly> s/os/id
<chillywilly> er, is
<nickr> I have no idea when woody will released
<nickr> probably in a few months
<chillywilly> what is woody+1?
<nickr> once woody is released a lot of new software wil go into sid I think.
<chillywilly> ok
<Mr_You> re
<Mr_You> for some reason my postgresql debian install won't do the encoding part
<Mr_You> g_encoding: undefined symbol: pg_char_to_encoding
<Mr_You> initdb: pg_encoding failed
<chillywilly> interesting
<Mr_You> any guesses?  
<Mr_You> g_encoding: undefined symbol: pg_char_to_encoding
<Mr_You>  /usr/lib/postgresql/bin/pg_encoding: relocation error: /usr/lib/postgresql/bin/p
<Mr_You> uggh
<Mr_You> in the reverse order
<Mr_You> I've tried different encoding specs and locales.. which only en_US and C are available for locale
<Mr_You> I'm assuming everyone elses has worked fine.. in fact, I use to have postgresql installed on this box.. not sure why I removed it
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<Mr_You> wonder why its 7.1 also, 7.2 has been out
<Mr_You> hmm
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<Mr_You> night
Action: Mr_You &
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--- Wed Mar 27 2002