[02:09] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<dtm> #@!(#*
<ajmitch> ##$%@!!
<dtm> did you guys have a good Easter?
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<Isomer> hmm
<ajmitch> hi chillywilly
<Isomer> is forms a gnome "widget"?
<chillywilly> hi
<chillywilly> there's a gtk+ ui plugin
<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> midnight eh?
<chillywilly> Mon Apr  1 06:22:16 CST 2002
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> you're up early
<ajmitch> Tue Apr  2 00:31:25 NZST 2002
<ajmitch> your clock seems off too
<chillywilly> supposed to meet mike at 7am
<chillywilly> it always is
Action: Isomer teaches chillywilly about xntpd
<chillywilly> yea yea
<ajmitch> i run ntpdate from cron, it does the job
<Isomer> ajmitch: either/or.
<chillywilly> how easy is ti to setup?
<chillywilly> s/ti/it
<ajmitch> dead easy
<chillywilly> what's the package name for it?
Action: chillywilly just tried xntpd
<Isomer> ntp-simple ?
<Isomer> perhaps "ntp"
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> that worked
<chillywilly> ntp-simple
<chillywilly> I'd rather sync my server and then sync my other machines to it, is that a bit more complicated?
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> gah, now I need to find a time server
Action: chillywilly looks in the LUG list
<Isomer> hrm
<chillywilly> I use ntp-0.cso.uiuc.edu, ntp-2.mcs.anl.gov, & ns.nts.umn.edu. Instead
<chillywilly> of using xntpd, I simply run this command via cron every 20 minutes:
<chillywilly>     /usr/sbin/ntpdate -b ntp-0.cso.uiuc.edu \
<chillywilly>     ntp-2.mcs.anl.gov ns.nts.umn.edu >/dev/null
<Isomer> that however won't provide a server for your other machines to sync against
<Isomer> if you use NFS and try and use "make" as I've discovered you need your machines in very close sync
<chillywilly> I have had plenty of sucess with ntp.css.gov
<chillywilly> I dont feel bad about sucking ntp from the feds.
<chillywilly> ;)
<Isomer> heheh
<ajmitch> i use ihug's ntp server
<chillywilly> Isomer: good point about the makefiles
<chillywilly> however I haven't bothered figuring out how to setup NFS
<chillywilly> or how to do DNS, mailman, squid, etc.
Action: chillywilly is lazy
<ajmitch> yeah, i've had some funky issues with make & clocks being out of sync
<ajmitch> i run nfs, dns, mailman, squid, apache, etc :)
Action: chillywilly adds ntp.css.gov ntp-0.cso.uiuc.edu ntp-2.mcs.anl.gov ns.nts.umn.edu ntp.cs.wisc.edu
<Isomer> DNS, Mailman, squid, NFS are all trivial
<ajmitch> yep
<ajmitch> very
<chillywilly> it start ntpd
<ajmitch> that's how people like me can run them ;)
<chillywilly> er, started
<chillywilly> bah, why it my time at midnight now?
<chillywilly> what time is it?
<chillywilly> minute wise
<chillywilly> I think I need to go
<Isomer> Tue Apr  2 00:42:52 NZST 2002
<ajmitch> Tue Apr  2 00:42:53 NZST 2002
<chillywilly> my clock is off by 9 minutes here
<chillywilly> why didn't ntp get the right time?
<ajmitch> man, my clock was 10 seconds out
<chillywilly> how do I sync it manually?
<Isomer> ntp will drive your clock towards the real time
<Isomer> er
<Isomer> drift
<Isomer> it won't "jump" it
<Isomer> because that can cause daemons to go mental
<chillywilly> oh
<ajmitch> ntpdate causes it to jump
<Isomer> (trust me, it's fun to watch, as a bystander only)
<Isomer> so after an hour or so it'll be right
<chillywilly> how can I make this box sync to the server running ntp?
<Isomer> install "ntp-simple" again
<Isomer> or whatever it was
<Isomer> and use your server as the ntp server
<chillywilly> oh duh
<chillywilly> that was very fast  ;)
Action: chillywilly hugs apt-proxy
<chillywilly> ok, I must go
<ajmitch> bye
<chillywilly> cya
<chillywilly> maybe my time will be right when I get home ;)
<chillywilly> bye
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<sledge_> wow
<jamest> wow
<jamest> ?
<sledge_> well, wow. simply.
<jamest> why wow?
<sledge_> because of (cd bin/; ./gfdes &;)
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<jamest> ah a "wow, it actually came up" responce
<jamest> :)
<sledge_> partially, but i also played around with it
<jamest> ah, you try out the wizards
<jamest> ?
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<sledge_> yes, i've tried out the simple wizard which does it's job perfectly well
<sledge_> but i don't underschtand the master/detail wizard
<jamest> ah
<jamest> you're running cvs
<jamest> master/detail relationships are primary/foreign key setups
<sledge_> yep
<sledge_> ah
<jamest> you choose a table that is the master
<jamest> then link other tables to it via a matching field
<sledge_> i.e. master_table (id int, det_id int)
<sledge_> detail_table (int id, str string)
<sledge_> and then link master_table.det_id with detail_table.id
<jamest> yip
<jamest> master/detail is old oracle terminology that jcater and I are both used to using
<sledge_> ah; never used oracle (nomen est omen ;-)
<jamest> one thing I still need to add to that wizard is page support
Action: jamest just remembered that :(
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<sledge_> haven't understood that page stuff
<sledge_> erm, ui question:why aren't the position (x,y,w,h) attributes in the properties window?
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<jamest> pages are just like pages of a book
<jamest> you can have a form that is several pages long
<jamest> the x, y, width, height properties are in the properties window
<jamest> they are also at the bottom of the screen
<sledge_> ?
<jamest> you may have to scroll down a bit to see them
<sledge_> wait
<sledge_> yes, kick me
<sledge_> but sometimes i can't edit the values
<jamest> a bug
<sledge_> okay
<jamest> we have not pinned down why but sometimes you can't edit the properties
<jamest> on a window with a scrollbar
<jamest> if you increase the size of the property window to get rid of the scroll bar then it will work
<jamest> major PITA i know
<dneighbo_> jamest: jcater told me this is not a bug but rather your way of ensuring that the widgets dont get cluttered with glade like properties ;)
<sledge_> *g*
<Isomer> rofl.
<jamest> then i failed
<jamest> as entry widgets are a property-fest :)
<jamest> dneighbo_: did you start a tutorial on desginer/forms?
<sledge_> yep, that would be helpful
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<jamest> I planned on starting on docs this last weekend after I squashed a few bugs 
<jamest> but needed a break 
<sledge_> is it possible to create a form which only gives a "basic info" on a data set, and on clicking a button, opens a more complete view?
<jamest> right now, no
<jamest> it's easy to create the two forms and have a button launch the more detailed form
<jamest> however we don't have a system for seeding the detail form with query values
<dneighbo_> jamest i had a 'tutorial' started in the form of an 'article' for linuxjournal
<jamest> it would be a very nice feature though
<dneighbo_> i think it might be in cvs
<dneighbo_> i want to finish it as an article (intro)
<jamest> lol
<dneighbo_> but we really need a raw tutorial as well
Action: dneighbo_ hates to see you working on docs though as we desperately need a new release
<jamest> docs are part of that release
<dneighbo_> i dont think so
<dneighbo_> we need a release w/ or w/o docs badly
<dneighbo_> if docs delay it even by a day
<dneighbo_> the docs arent worth it
<dneighbo_> as can always post docs to the web site as soon as they are ready
<dneighbo_> at least that is my opinion
<jamest> hmmmm
<ra3vat> jamest: have you seen my message with question to you about binary snapshot? any comments?
<ra3vat> in gnue-dev
<jamest> ra3vat: not yet
<ra3vat> ah
<ra3vat> where rto resend it to?
<sledge_> i think that a tutorial would attract more people to test it out, resulting in more (and hopefully more quality) bug reports
<ra3vat> where to resend it?
<dneighbo_> sigh
<dneighbo_> sledge_ when we lose people faster than they arrive
<dneighbo_> because they grab binaries that are 4 months old
<dneighbo_> and our answer is get cvs
<dneighbo_> and they say sorry i dont run cvs code
<dneighbo_> a tutorial is worthless
<sledge_> i see, but i thought it should come with a new release
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<jamest> ra3vat: when did you send it?
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<jamest> sigh
<jamest> derek's bitchx is ignoring me
<dneighbo_> hmm
<dneighbo_> no ignoring you
<jamest> can you see me here?
<jamest>  <block name="blckdtsrcschool" rows="3" datasource="dtsrcschool"   rowSpacer="11">
<jamest>  <trigger name="trig2" type="PRE-COMMIT">
<dneighbo_> pre-commit is not a valid trigger
<jamest>  blckdtsrcschool.autofillBySequence('ntryschool_id','seq_school_id')
<dneighbo_> it was commented out in current source tree
<jamest>   </trigger>
<jamest> it's had better not be
<jamest> as it breaks a shitload of my forms
<dneighbo_> it appeared to be
<dneighbo_> unless you didnt use the same method
<dneighbo_> to load triggers
<ra3vat> jamest: the message is in gnue-dev from Mar 27th subject:[Gnue-dev] Re: [gnue-discuss] utf-8
<ra3vat> the question is in the end of the message
<jamest> got it
<dneighbo_> jamest sorry pre commit is there
<dneighbo_> i was thinking
<dneighbo_> pre-change, post-change
<jamest> ra3vat: what is required to do that?
<ra3vat> jamest: minor changes in site.py
<ra3vat> encoding = "ascii" # Default value set by _PyUnicode_Init()
<ra3vat>  
<ra3vat> if 0:
<ra3vat>     # Enable to support locale aware default string encodings.
<ra3vat>     import locale
<ra3vat>     loc = locale.getdefaultlocale()
<ra3vat>     if loc[1]:
<ra3vat>         encoding = loc[1]
<ra3vat> change if 0:
<ra3vat> to if 1: (i think)
<jamest> isn't site.py a python installed config file?
<ra3vat> yes
<jamest> is there a way to do this from within our app?
<sledge_> i've read somewhere that the trigger editor doesn't work in designer?
<jamest> sledge_: i think it does
<ra3vat> jamest: i think it is but not one step action, some explanation is in the message 
<dneighbo_> ra3vat have you talked to art about this at all?
<dneighbo_> i.e. i havent followed the i18n stuff as i got bogged down
<ra3vat> dneighbo_: yes
<ra3vat> jamest: i think it'll take a time before that it might help to have that setting in binary snapshot and some readme for others distribution
<dneighbo_> ra3vat i think the question would be can we make linux binaries as well
<dneighbo_> that include our own version of python etc
<dneighbo_> but thats a whole other topic
<jamest> ew
<jamest> i'd hope we can implement a solution in GClientApp.py
<dneighbo_> jaemst:you misunderstand
<jamest> and avoid huge downloads
<dneighbo_> my question was INDEPENDENT of the i18n issue
<dneighbo_> my desire to have COMPLETE binaries on all platforms has nothign to do with i18n
<dneighbo_> rather i see it much easier to support shipping a disk that is completely self contained
<dneighbo_> things like this i have seen
<dneighbo_> adobe framemaker
<dneighbo_> all loki games
<dneighbo_> star office
<dneighbo_> etc
<dneighbo_> the installs were very easy and no fuss
<dneighbo_> granted all these programs ship in binary form to lock out users
<dneighbo_> oh and SAP
<dneighbo_> er SAP-DB
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<jamest> ok
<jamest> i think this ties into the need for a gnue-setup which I spoke with jcater (as a gee it'd be nice to have) about on Sunday
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> i need a clone
<jamest> sledge_: did you get it to work?
<jamest> sledge_: i find sometimes its easier to use designer for some things and emacs/vi for others still :(
<ra3vat> dneighbo_: i do not speak about linux binary only for w32 that we have now
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<sledge_> jamest: forms and designer work well here, but not at work (trigger editor doesn't work there), perhaps cvs update needed
<sledge_> jamest: depends on the task, really
<sledge_> jamest: but it looks quite easy to write triggers (just read the doc)
<jamest> we've got docs on the new triggers?
<sledge_> jamest: i've read http://www.gnuenterprise.org/docs/techref/book1.html; isn't new enough?
<ra3vat> jamest: we can get a solution in GClientApp.py via something like  unicode(str,"put-your-encoding-here")
<jamest> there is no way to flip that site.py thing on in GClientApp.py then :(
<ra3vat> sledge_: can you please test forms with non-ascii strings in form itself (gfd file)
<sledge_> ra3vat: everything english (non-ascii) at home, but i can tell you in 1 hour
<sledge_> s/non-/all-/;
<ra3vat> sledge_: thanks
<sledge_> see you, i will get into my car and drive back to work now, despite easter monday :-/)
<ra3vat> :)
[09:17] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<sledge_> (our corporate bast^Wpartners have hacked a stupid b***sh*** IS architecture, and we have to fix everything for them. *argh*. i sometimes bofh them.)
<sledge_> if you want to see entirely messed-up linux systems, administered by NT people, programmed by marketing dudes, come to us.
<sledge_> see u
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<ra3vat> jamest: most (if not all) installation of python is misconfigured _by default_ for using non-ascii forms with current code
<ra3vat> jamest: is it possible to use two installation of gnuef on the same w32 machine - binary snapshot and regular installation?
<jamest> yes
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<ra3vat> jamest, dneighbo: can you comment on my messages in maillist (Arturas also welcome :))? 
<ra3vat> jamest: whre was an opinion after Aditya sent his utf8 patch (if i recall correctly) that unicode support will make the code to work too slow
<ra3vat> and not needed for most cases
<ra3vat> have i missed/forgot something?
<jamest> too slow?
<jamest> i don't recall that
<jamest> but I am/was way behind on mail
<ra3vat> hm
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<^chewie> blee
<jamest> hey 
<jamest> markoi: hello
<markoi> hello jamest:
<markoi> jamest: I have used SQL-ledger to fix my personal finances over the holidays. Good. dneighbo showed me the right tool to quickly solve problem.
<jamest> good
<markoi> Now I am peeking to you gnue-guys to see when can I port data to more promising platform
<^chewie> interesting, I didn't realize that Firebird had such a liberal licence.  Very nice.
<^chewie> has anyone used it?
<jamest> um, someone recently gave us updated firebird drivers
<jamest> i'm blanking on the name
<markoi> Actualy I will probably try to make some interfaces earlier. I'd like to make simple enough interface for my wife to use to enter simple ATM-bankomat and foot transactions.
<jamest> markoi: :)
<markoi> Who is Firebird???
<jcater> free version of Borland Interbase, iirc
Action: ^chewie nods
<^chewie> I've never used the Borland products, so I don't know how good the product is
Action: ^chewie is happy with PostgreSQL
Action: ^chewie smiles
<jcater> it's not a clone, but the actual code base, irrc
Action: ^chewie nods
Action: jcater is looking into SAP-DB for my office
<^chewie> yeah, Borland has opened up a lot of their code
<^chewie> which is very nice to see
<jcater> but
<jcater> iirc, they paniced and reclosed the source
<jcater> hence the firebird people
<jcater> they took the last opened version
<jcater> and ran with it
<jcater> what a mess :)
<markoi> I have been looking to Borland Interbase comercials for ages, since Borland bought it... It allways looked very serios piece of database engine.
<jcater> I don't doubt it
<jcater> I haven't had the opportunity to use it
<jcater> but I hear a lot of raves about it
Action: dneighbo_ speaks up
<dneighbo_> btami donated drivers
<dneighbo_> interbase is on par w/ oracle, db2 and others it just was never huge commerical success out side of borland loyalists
<dneighbo_> when it was not making profits borland open sourced it under a goofy license and laid off all the developers
<dneighbo_> hoping to just keep the 'support' of interbase alive
<dneighbo_> one of the primary developers got some good friends and fixed problems borland would not LET him while at borland
<dneighbo_> at which point borland freaked and retracted the code and license
<dneighbo_> and thus ensued like a year long war
<dneighbo_> and firebird was birthed as a result
<dneighbo_> the code they COULD reuse they did
<dneighbo_> firebird == out of the ashes (reborn) being symbolic to rebirth from ashes of interbase
<dneighbo_> or so i remember it :)
<dneighbo_> its been a while
<dneighbo_> i would say interbase is probably a more mature and better product than postgres today
<dneighbo_> but im with jcater i think im ready to hedge my bet on SAP-DB
<markoi> As I noticed the main difference is in multiversioning of all currently referenced records so every client gets consistent view at the data at the moment his transaction begin. No later transaction runs into record lock due to previously running transactions..
<dneighbo_> markoi for some time interbase was beating even oracle in areas of transisolation
<markoi> Thet's INTERBASEs difference
<dneighbo_> they were the first if iirc
<dneighbo_> to implemeint the repeatableread
<dneighbo_> er repeatable reread
<markoi> what's iirc ?
<dneighbo_> if i remember correctly
<jamest> if i recall correctly
<dneighbo_> btw jamest i meant to say kudos on using dcl and closing some items :)
<dneighbo_> i like the 'this has been fixed for some time' (lyx docs)
<markoi> While at INTERBASE. Would it run as gnue DB?
<dneighbo_> and i was like hmm i know it was busted when i made the ticket, then i noticed the ticket date was like end of october :)
<dneighbo_> markoi firebird does
<dneighbo_> which is an opensource interbase
<dneighbo_> i would suspect that it would not be difficult to make a REAL interbase driver set for gnue
<dneighbo_> like 2 hours work
<dneighbo_> but right now you could use interbase via odbc
<markoi> Great. The only problem is I do not know when I'll find time to try it...
<jamest> um
<jamest> we have a real interbase driver
<dneighbo_> cool
<jamest> works with designer wizards even
<dneighbo_> interbase or firebird?
<jamest> both IIRC
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<dneighbo_> cool
<dneighbo_> hi jbailey 
<jbailey> Heya Derek.
<jbailey>  /topic Beware the fish.
<jbailey> Stupid channels with topic locks.
<jamest> yip both
<jamest> from the kinterbase site
<jamest>  KInterbasDB is a Python extension package that implements Python Database API 2.0-compliant support for Borland® Interbase® and its descendant Firebird
<jamest> wher:)
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<dneighbo_> found a more accurate history
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<dneighbo_> http://firebird.sourceforge.net/index.php?op=history&id=opensource
<dneighbo_> to anyone wishing it
<dneighbo_> but was pretty close to what i said
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<lupo_> hello (sledge_ == lupo_)
<lupo_> anyone there?
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<jamest> yip
<lupo_> ah
<lupo_> ra3vat asked me what non-ascii caracters do to the form
<lupo_> <label y="3" name="lblLongitude" width="10" text="Löngitüde:" x="1"/>
<lupo_> --> xml.sax._exceptions.SAXParseException: <unknown>:24:55: not well-formed (invalid token)
<ra3vat> lupo_: is it important for you to get it working with labels like this?
<lupo_> well, yes
<ra3vat> lupo_: can you look at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dimas/doc/gnuers_enc.txt?
<ra3vat> lupo_: is your local setting something Harald1 has?
<ra3vat> lupo_: can you give the output of that commands?
<ra3vat> on your machine
<lupo_> ra3vat: LANG=de_DE
<lupo_> ra3vat: ['de_DE', 'ISO8859-1'], 'ascii'
<ra3vat> lupo_: if you have a time we can try to get it working
<lupo_> i have
<lupo_> i have to add that i have changed the LANG five minutes ago
<lupo_> so i have a new error when starting gforms
<lupo_>  UnicodeError: UTF-8 decoding error: invalid data
<ra3vat> lupo_: what have you changed it to?
<lupo_> de_DE, lang was originally C
<ra3vat> 1. find in /usr/lib/python/site.py encoding='ascii'
<ra3vat> dir may differs of course
<dneighbo_> ra3vat for your .txt file list
<dneighbo_> derek
<dneighbo_>  - platform debian 'unstable' (Linux version 2.2.19pre17)
<dneighbo_>  - python Python 2.0.1 & Python 2.1.2 & Python 2.2
<dneighbo_>  - LANG C
<dneighbo_>  - getdefaultlocale exception
<dneighbo_>  - getdefaultencoding 'ascii'
<dneighbo_> i tried with three of four versions python installed and got same result with all
<ra3vat> dneighbo_: thanks
<dneighbo_> thought it odd i got the exception, but noticed reinahrd got it too
<lupo_> ra3vat: got it, it's /usr/lib/python2.1/site.py; encoding = "ascii"
<ra3vat> lupo_: you can change it here modify next if 0: to if 1: it will set defaultencoding according to current locale
<ra3vat> lupo_: you can change it here or modify next if 0: to if 1: it will set defaultencoding according to current locale
<ra3vat> you should get exception still 
<ra3vat> after starting form
<lupo_> yep
<lupo_> site.py couldn't be imported or something like that
<lupo_> i still get the UnicodeError
<ra3vat> yes
<ra3vat> now try
<ra3vat> to modify header in gfd file to something like this:
<ra3vat> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="koi8-r"?> 
<ra3vat> in my case
<ra3vat> or may be <?xml version="1.0" encoding="koi8-r"?> 
<ra3vat> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO8859-1"?>
<ra3vat> in yours
<lupo_> yep
<lupo_> mom
<ra3vat> does it work?
<lupo_> DB000:   File "/home/lupo/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GParser.py", line 225, in startElementNS
<lupo_> DB000:     raise MarkupError, 'Error processing <%s> tag [invalid type for "%s"
<lupo_> attribute; value is "%s"]' % (name, attr, saxattrs[qattr])
<lupo_> DB000: gnue.common.GParser.MarkupError
<lupo_> mom
<lupo_> i'm stoopid
<lupo_> i set encoding to "de_DE", which is of course nonsense. after setting encoding to "ISO8859-1", gfcvs starts
<ra3vat> lupo_: labels look correctly?
<lupo_> ra3vat: unfortunately no
<ra3vat> lupo_: ok :) we have that behaviour too
<ra3vat> dneighbo_: what is preferred python's version to play under w32?
<dneighbo_> it doesnt really matter
<dneighbo_> i think 2.1 is safest wrt gnue
<dneighbo_> as 2.0 is a little stale
<dneighbo_> and 2.2 has unicode bugs
<dneighbo_> ra3vat at least the inconsistency is consistent right :)
<dneighbo_> the labels not being right :)
<ra3vat> dneighbo_: i have 2.0 installed 
<dneighbo_> 2.0 will work fine
<ra3vat> and there are problems with non-ascii forms, trying to reinstall gnuef 
<ra3vat> may be old installation cause that
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<ra3vat> dneighbo_: what is the easiest way to get forms cvs version and install it under w32?
<ra3vat> is it documented somewhere?
<lupo_> whohou, found a designer bug
<lupo_> when changing a trigger's name in the property editor, the trigger list in the event editor is not updated
<lupo_> where's the source?
<lupo_> okay, where can i enable GDebug?
<ra3vat> lupo_: -d <level>
<ra3vat> option at startup
<lupo_> okay
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<lupo_> what is a NAMED_TRIGGER, what's an EVENT_TRIGGER?
<lupo_> named trigger is a global trigger that can be called through multiple events, event trigger is specific to a form object, am i right?
<lupo_> okay, seems to be more complex. the event designer needs a "refill" method
<jamest> more or less
<jamest> though I'm not sure where you picked up the name  EVENT_TRIGGER
<jamest> as all triggers are tied to events
Action: jcater is away: lunch-o-matic
<lupo_> jamest: in the source
<lupo_> there is some confusion between "event" and "trigger"
<dneighbo_> really we should not call things triggers imho
<dneighbo_> but rather events
<dneighbo_> i.e. if its tied to forms object model its method of a forms object and an 'event'
<dneighbo_> if its a method outside that model i would probably call it a trigger
<dneighbo_> in like the appserver world
<dneighbo_> an event might fire a trigger
<dneighbo_> but hell trigger/event its all the same :)
<dneighbo_> why discriminate ;)
<dneighbo_> if you find bugs in designer please file them 
<dneighbo_> you can do via email
<lupo_> s/file/fix/ *g*
<jamest> events are internal and occur between the UIdriver and the virtual form
<jamest> triggers are form level events
<jamest> that occur between who knows what :)
<dneighbo_> lupo_ you can submit your bug by emailing designer-support@gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo_> if you patch your bug please submit a diff to info@gnue.org :)
<dneighbo_> but we will need to get assignment from you to accept it if we dont already have one
Action: psu is away: bbl
<lupo_> what do you mean with assignment?
<reinhard> lupo_: we ask all contributors to assign copyright to the free software foundation
<lupo_> okay, how complicated is that?
<dneighbo_> works like this
<dneighbo_> 1. i send you email with like 5 - 10 questions
<dneighbo_> 2. you return email with questions answered to FSF
<dneighbo_> 3. they mail you paper paperwork via snail mail
<dneighbo_> 4. you review, sign and send back via snail mail
<dneighbo_> and its done
<dneighbo_> we can also fax instead of snail mail for both 3 and 4 if its a 'rush'
<lupo_> oh my godness
<lupo_> even for a small 20-line patch?
<reinhard> we all hope you will submit more patches in the future :)
<ra3vat> lupo_: your form is uploaded already, it's more than 20-line :)
<reinhard> actually we have to do that for everything you could legally claim copyright
<reinhard> for
<reinhard> (not sure if that was a correct english sentence)
<ra3vat> reinhard: how is your debian fighting? have X's already?
<lupo_> is a simple "diff" enough or do you need parameters?
<reinhard> ra3vat: it's going fine
<lupo_> reinhard: i don't think i can claim copyright over 20 lines
<reinhard> apart from the fact that i'm currently too busy to spend much time on it
<reinhard> lupo_: IANAL
<reinhard> lupo_: i guess the fsf has made bad experiences wrt that
<lupo_> okay, then let's do it, i assume i can contribute more in the future
<ra3vat> reinhard: please inform when you get forms working on it :)
<reinhard> ok
<dneighbo_> a few things
<dneighbo_> no special params a simple diff is enough
<dneighbo_> FSF lawyers think anything more than 5 - 10 shoudl really have paperwork
<dneighbo_> but as reinhard stated: we really hope people contributing end up doing more than one 5 - 10 line patch
<dneighbo_> GENERALLY what we do
<dneighbo_> is if someone is willing to complete the assignment
<dneighbo_> and the patch is relatively small (not a complete file or rewirte of a file)
<dneighbo_> we go ahead and commit the patch in 'good faith'
<dneighbo_> that the paperwork will be completed
<lupo_> okay, then email that stuff to lupo at warptec.com (i've got a working fax too)
<dneighbo_> ok cool
<dneighbo_> what is your first and last name?
<lupo_> real name is Christian Selig
<ra3vat> new entry: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dimas/samples/forms/form_de_ISO8859-1.gfd
<lupo_> okay, where to send the patch? someone dcc?
<lupo_> ah, info at
<dneighbo_> info@gnue.org
<lupo_> done
<ra3vat> how to do a screenshot of a form window?
<dneighbo_> you can use gimp
<dneighbo_> or if you are in gnome there is a panel applet 
<dneighbo_> called it hink screenshooter
<ra3vat> ok, thanks
<ra3vat> did it with gimp before
<dneighbo_> snap
<dneighbo_> christian bug report should have gone to designer-support@gnuenterprise.org
<dneighbo_> and patch to info@gnue.org
<dneighbo_> but now that i think about it should have had you send it all to designer-support@gnuenterprise.org as it 'automagically' picks up attachments (or it should)
<dneighbo_> would you be willing to resend that email to designer-support@gnuenterprise.org to help us test our bug submitting tool :)
<ra3vat> lupo_: got your form running here but specific symbols like in "fur" exchanged with 2 byte unicode sequence and displayed incorrectly
<lupo_> okay
<lupo_> i've introduced a new bug (category: annoying), but that shouldn't hurt
<lupo_> okay, it's down the wire
<lupo_> hey, wxpython is f***cking easy to use :)
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<lupo_> question: will geas2 be written in python?
<reinhard> yes
<lupo_> *cheer*
<reinhard> lupo_: btw will you be in karlsruhe (linuxtag?)
<lupo_> reinhard: oh yes. georg asked me, i looked at my schedule and saw that my abi will be finished by then. i intend to stay there all 4 days at the fsfe booth.
<reinhard> cool
<dneighbo_> lupo_ will you be with georg at linuxtag?
<reinhard> so we'll meet probably :)
<dneighbo_> i desperately need to speak with him
<dneighbo_> reinhard you should meet with david sugar of bayonne whil you are there
<lupo_> we're talking about georg greve, just to be sure
<dneighbo_> as well was with greve
<reinhard> dneighbo_: would be nice if you would come there :)
<dneighbo_> i would LOVE to
<dneighbo_> like REALLY love to
<dneighbo_> as i desperately need to meet with folks from europe on fsf related things
<dneighbo_> i just dont have the money
<dneighbo_> and my wife would kill me if fsf sent me there and i didnt take her (and rightfully so)
<dneighbo_> lupo_ are you part of fsf europe?
<ra3vat> need to go
<ra3vat> bye
<lupo_> bye
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<reinhard> l8r ra3vat
<lupo_> dneighbo_: not officially. let's say i'm an "associated individual". i intend to have an official status in the future, but that depends on the member meeting.
<dneighbo_> i would like to talk to greve on that front too
<dneighbo_> we are trying to get gnuenterprise in use at FSF USA
<dneighbo_> to do contact management/donation management and some other things
<dneighbo_> it would be cool if fsfeurope was doing teh same
<reinhard> lupo_: are there any members actually except the president, the head of office, and the counselors?
<dneighbo_> and we built a gateway perhaps to 'exchange' data
<dneighbo_> but my real urgency is in the GBN (gnu business network)
<dneighbo_> as the US side i think is desperately wanting to get something going
<dneighbo_> i also would love to find some SAP-DB developers to exchange some information and i assume linuxtag is possibly a place i could find them :)
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<lupo_> i assume some of them will be at gnu/linuxtag, but be careful to ask whether you're talking to a techie or a marketroid!
Action: psu is back
<jamest> lupo_: what is the new bug you introduced?
<lupo_> it's not a real bug, just an "issue"
<lupo_> when changing the name of a trigger in the prop.edit, then the combo box in the event editor has the displayed item set to zero.
<^chewie> mmmm... very nice http://cheetahtemplate.org/
<^chewie> python templating similar/better than tag style HTML templating systems
Action: ^chewie still needs to go to lunch..  He goes now ;-)
<dneighbo_> hmm that looks itendentical to jadeke
<dneighbo_> we wrote like 3 years ago only in php
<dneighbo_> and had some goals similar to gnue forms
<^chewie> yeah
<^chewie> I need something that's not php for webforms and such
<dneighbo_> i think psp and webware both look promising
<dneighbo_> though jamest and jcater swear by zope
<^chewie> something along the lines of "quick solution" development while we can work on more long term solutions
<dneighbo_> generally they are pretty reliable :)
Action: ^chewie nods
<dneighbo_> so i would consider looking at zope
<jcater> dneighbo_: I don't think the comparison between the two is fair
<jcater> those are two tools
<jcater> I'd recommend either based on what you're doing
<dneighbo_> ?
<dneighbo_> zope vs psp vs webware?
<lupo_> okay, i've fixed my new bug, too
Action: dneighbo_ has had too much sugar to be coherent
<lupo_> i'll resend it
<jcater> dneighbo_: yes
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<dneighbo_> lupo_ we need to get you versed in dcl :)
<dneighbo_> so you can open and close own bugs :)
<jcater> bugs?
<jcater> we already have eno8ugh of those
<jcater> we don't need more
<jcater> :P
<dneighbo_> jcater: yeah but he is squashing them :)
<jcater> oh
<dneighbo_> so he can find as many as he likes :)
<dneighbo_> if he is willing to squash them too ;)
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<lupo_> i only squash bugs because i'm too stupid to design new code
<dneighbo_> well in that case we like stupid coders
<dneighbo_> have any friends ;)
<lupo_> *g*
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<lupo_> okay, my new stuff works perfectly well
<lupo_> i'll send it
<lupo_> okay, down the wire
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<lupo_> suggestion for designer: display triggers and data sources as small icons (that don't appear in gforms) on the form canvas (-> delphi) and skip the x,y,w,h,name,class editing on the bottom of the main window
<psu> lupo_: you can use the bugs email addresses for suggestions as well - go for it!
<lupo_> you better don't give a cvs account, otherwise you'll be shocked
<jcater> I personally never liked those "hidden" type tags
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<lupo_> erm, and deleting an object segfaults designer. is it a bug or just a feature that enables users to think in a more constructive manner? :-)
<jcater> well
<jcater> see
<jcater> that's a feature
<jcater> we are early implementers of SSSCA
<jcater> and we know that the only reason people would be designing forms
<jcater> is to rip off someone else's product
<jcater> so this is our copyright enforcement
<lupo_> ah, i see
<jcater> (that was a joke, btw)
<jcater> we *recently* redid the UI support in forms
<lupo_> i know, but it's funny anyway
<jcater> and designer needs to be brought up to speed
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<jamest> I'm looking at that issue right now actually
<lupo_> jcater: well, from what i've seen in the designer code there is no separation between display and data
<jcater> ?
<lupo_> well, not a clear one
<dneighbo_> lupo_ just dont go nuts and ask for documentation too :)
<dneighbo_> jamest/jcater are you actively using dcl for new things you are working on?
<jcater> ?
<jamest> like I'd know how
<jamest> i can't even get it to list all the open tickets on the site
<jamest> :)
Action: dneighbo_ is curious as we should really try to get in habit of doing so, because it will hopefully prevent duplication of effort and bug reporting as more fingers get in the pie
<dneighbo_> jamest choose either ticket search
<dneighbo_> and build a query
<dneighbo_> or choose ticket->browse
<dneighbo_> ticket->browse adn work order->browse are EASIEST way to get open ticket listing
<dneighbo_> i want to write one that is browse all that merges that report
<lupo_> I WANT DOCS! AOL!
<lupo_> :-)
<dneighbo_> the way i see dcl workign for now
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<dneighbo_> is tickets are for 'bug reports'
<dneighbo_> and
<dneighbo_> work orders are for 'feature requests'
<dneighbo_> or bug reports taht get turned into feature requests :)
Action: dneighbo_ has a feeling the silence means jcater and jamest are reaching for fire arms to run the 'masta' out of town
<jamest> um
<jamest> jcater you come in from the east i'll take the west
<jamest> we'll end his tyrany once and for all
Action: dneighbo_ dives into the fox hole
Action: jcater runs for the "sawed off"
<dneighbo_> and tries to submit patches in hopses they will 'leave him be'
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<jamest> :)
<lupo_> if you want to add me on savannah, my username is "sledge"
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<reinhard> lupo_: thanks for your info
<reinhard> iirc the people listed on savanna have cvs access
<lupo_> yep, that's my intent
<reinhard> we decided to not give cvs access immediately
<lupo_> ok
<reinhard> like you see we have (iirc) 14 people with cvs access
<reinhard> and only 4 or 5 active committers
<reinhard> the rest was just submitting something for a week or two
<reinhard> and then disappeared
<reinhard> and from what i heard (i'm not savannah admin)
<reinhard> it's a pain to get them out again
<reinhard> so we give cvs to those _regularly_ doing things
<lupo_> can't they be thrown out
<reinhard> no offense intended :)
<reinhard> lupo_: not sure
<reinhard> as i said i'm not maintainer myself
<reinhard> it's what i have been told
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<reinhard> and other than that i can't imagine why thierry michel or eric bianci are on the list
<dneighbo_> well adding deleting people becomes a pain even if its moderately easy to do
<dneighbo_> the big thing is submit a few patches and we will gladly give cvs
<dneighbo_> unlike some projects we are not anti giving cvs access
<dneighbo_> jsut we dont want to do a lot of maintenance until we know the contributor is serious
<lupo_> ok
<lupo_> i gotta go now
<lupo_> i have a diff installed and i *will* use it! :-)
<lupo_> bye
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<psu> hi drochaid
<drochaid> hey psu
<drochaid> just testing trillians irc client
<drochaid> *not* impressed so far
<psu> xchat or bitchx are the most popular choices here, iirc
<psu> I have used tinyirc when I was on a 486 w/o X
<psu> now *that's* painful
<psu> never even got /me to work properly
<drochaid> I normally use xchat
<drochaid> a friend is trying to get me on icw/aim/msn etc as well
<drochaid> this sucks ... I'll be back with xchat in a few mins :-)
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<psu> it's da xchat man
<drochaid> :D
<drochaid> I've just had the pleasure of having my accounts setup by my accountant [ brother :) ]
<drochaid> and I thought IT was boring ....
<psu> hey, no bad mouthing accountants while I am around ;-)
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<Mr_You> hiih
<Mr_You> hi
<drochaid> you an accountant psu? :o
<psu> oh yes
<drochaid> oh dear
<psu> it's not a social disease, you know ;-)
<drochaid> my brothers a CA, auditor and IS manager
<drochaid> I hate accountants in IT
<psu> i'm CPFA 
<Mr_You> anyone created a GNUe april fools joke yet?
<Mr_You> ;-)
<psu> how about hacker accountants? 
<jcater> Mr_You: yes... haven't you seen all the commit talk from derek?
<jcater> :)
<psu> ouch
<jcater> psu: is that what you'd call Arthur Anderson?
<Mr_You> hehe
<jcater> a set of "hacker" accountants?
<drochaid> lol
<psu> i said hacker, not cracker - rms would be 'shamed of you
Action: Mr_You waits for psu to say april fools.
<jcater> accrual + hacker = "acracker" (pronounced "A Cracker")
<Mr_You> ;-)
<jcater> hmm would a "web hacker" be a "whacker?"
<jcater> ;)
<Mr_You> I love that www.wehavethewayout.com site.. running on FreeBSD heh
<^chewie> psu: I've heard people like irssi for a console-based irc client, though I think it's originally an X/GUI client
<^chewie> psu: I prefer epic4 w/the splitfire script
<^chewie> personally, I want something with a vi command-line, but I've not found ANYTHING that uses readline lib
<psu> i just used tinyirc becuase, well, it was tiny ;-)
Action: ^chewie nods
Action: ^chewie didn't like it either ;-)
Action: drochaid now has 3 months profit and loss, balance sheet and trial balance
Action: drochaid doesn't like his profit and loss statments :-(
<^chewie> ;-(
Nick change: jamest -> zopeboy
<^chewie> zopeboy: I take it you like zope
<^chewie> ;-)
<zopeboy> :)
Nick change: jcater -> zopegirl
<zopeboy> ew
Nick change: zopegirl -> zopeman
Nick change: zopeboy -> zopegahd
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<jan> morning.
<psu> hi jan
<jan> hi psu.
Nick change: zopegahd -> zopewimp
<zopewimp> jan!
<jan> hi jamest. 
<jan> are you zoping around?
Nick change: zopewimp -> jamest
<jamest> sorta
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<jan> just asking, because i'm trying to set up some a ZOPE CMF site at the moment.
Nick change: zopeman -> jcater
<jamest> never used cmf
<jan> I just wanna let my professor edit the homepage himself.
<jan> but i think even CMF will be sort of to "complicated" for him...  :(
<jamest> no need to do that
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<jan> you say it. But its during the time his paying me, so ... who cares...
<jan> jamest: what is the status of the common documentation project?  
<jcater> jan: it's in the early planning stages
<jamest> lol
<jcater> ;)
<jamest> it's on the plate for this week
<jamest> March 31st was a big deathline for me
<jamest> and it's over!
Action: jamest does a happy dance
<jan> congratulation!!! :)
<jamest> you still working on gfc.php?
<jan> yep. I just had a one month pause.
Action: jan is thinking back to the last weeks. weeks of fun, regeneration in beautiful taiwan.
Action: jan is thinking, if the word death line exist in chinese language
<jan> _  /.*/eehm/s
<dtm> HI ALL
<jamest> hi
<jamest> and bye
<jamest> l8r
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<ajmitch> morning all
<reinhard> night all
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<Mr_You> bye
Action: Mr_You &
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Action: ajmitch pokes everyone
Action: jcater squirms
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<ajmitch> hey jcater
<jcater> hello aj
<ajmitch> long time no hassle
<dneighbo_> must run off
<dneighbo_> bbl
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch> heh
<dneighbo_> after basketball
Action: ajmitch was just being nosy last night, asking a few questions
Action: jcater is back (gone 04:32:01)
<jcater> oops
<dneighbo_> bbl
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<ajmitch> hi jamest
chillywilly (~danielb@d33.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> oh dear, chillywilly is here
<chillywilly> Isomer: I blame you
<chillywilly> my time did not sync up yet
<chillywilly> danielb@frell:~$ date
<chillywilly> Mon Apr  1 10:57:10 CST 2002
<chillywilly> what gives?
<ajmitch> Tue Apr  2 11:08:24 NZST 2002
<chillywilly> it's almost 5pm here
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> er or at  5:08ish
<drochaid> well it's clearly 12:10 am .. so that's the problem ;-)
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> drochaid: bite me
Action: ajmitch gotta go, bye all :)
<drochaid> /dcc chillywilly false teeth
<chillywilly> bye
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<drochaid> if you could ever so kindly hold them up to the area you wish bitten ....
<chillywilly>  /dcc drochaid a clue
<drochaid> that one isn't going to make it you know
<jcater>  /dcc jcater a donut
<drochaid> lol
<jcater> well, it was worth a try
<drochaid> /dcc drochaid that wonderfull house on Direlton Avenue in North Berwick
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<neilt> hello all
<chillywilly> ello
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<chillywilly> uh oh
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by neilt!~neilt@66-61-51-107.wo4.cox.rr.com: GNue Creating the Digital Future
<chillywilly> I thought it is GNUe not GNue
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<neilt> hows that
<chillywilly> better ;)
<drochaid> nice little building here, someone wanna buy it for me? :D
<drochaid> http://www.espc.co.uk/property_catalogue/search_results/property_details.asp?RegistrationID=29845&GUID=62DE79E2-A40E-4F6E-9393-0D36C87E67C5
<^chewie> I buy nothing on April Fools day
<^chewie> ;-)
<drochaid> it's the 2nd here now :)
<^chewie> drochaid: I take it you're renting to people ;-)
<^chewie> heh, read that wrong
<^chewie> rather, I would say, "in your dreams." ;-)
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> even if my action against IBM goes *really* well, I won't be even close to buying something like that :((
<drochaid> does someone with really good insurance want to slander me so I can sue them? :D
<chillywilly> action against IBM?
<drochaid> yeah
<chillywilly> why do you have an action against IBM?
<drochaid> because they sent me on a job I wasn't trained for, and objected to when I got to the customers site .. I was told to do it or else and had the pleasure of sustaining a fairly severe spinal injury as a result
<chillywilly> ick
<^chewie> time to go home
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<drochaid> tis gone all quiet
<dneighbo> WHAT I COULDNT HEAR YOU OVER ALL THE NOISE?
<dneighbo> if sama|afk stays away from that keyboard much longer its liable to divorce him
<jan> small question: what do you all think, is the best name for the forms client written in PHP?
<jamest> be carefull! he's got cvs access!
<jamest> :)
<drochaid> jan: php/forms ?
<drochaid> or forms/php ?
<drochaid> i'm a simple lad at heart ;)
Action: chillywilly is away: dinner
<drochaid> possibly 'Theodor, master of all that is and shall be, god of digital love & hate, and also a rather good GNUe forms client written in php' would be an option ... but may be somewhat over the top :)
<jamest> gnue-forms-php
<jamest> btw - gfclient is taken as an executable name by gadfly
<jamest> so I imagine we'll have to change gfclient to something else soon
<jan> drochaird: Thats ok, I though of something like phpforms, like jforms etc.
<jan> drochaird:  TheSimpleAndOnlyOneSuperCalifragilisticBlaBlaBlaWrittenInPHPGNUEnterpriseFormsClient
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<drochaid> jan: I like that option .. go with it :)
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<jan> abother option is to name the client "GNU Enterprise Forms Client (PHP ver)", the directory phpforms and the ~executable~ gfclient.php
<jamest> i like it all but the gfclient.php
<jan> any objections to the last option?
<jamest> i'm almost positive that gfclient is taken in gadfly
<jamest> so I'm thinking we may want names like
<jamest> gnue-designer
<jamest> gnue-forms
<jamest> gnue-navigator
<jamest> or somethat that is almost positively never going to cause a name conflict
<jan> ok, i rename it to gnue-forms.
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<jan> gnue-forms.php
<jamest> but everything else looked good to me
<jamest> we have shell access on the gnu cvs server
<jamest> so I can manipulate names later if the need comes up
<jan> good.
<dneighbo> jamest: thats fine but jan was wanting a cvs name riight?
<jamest> yip
<dneighbo> we were bad about this
<dneighbo> i think it should probably be
<dneighbo> gnue/tool/variation
<dneighbo> so 
<dneighbo> gnue/forms/python
<dneighbo> gnue/forms/java
<dneighbo> gnue/forms/php
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<jamest> I'm ok with that
<jamest> but it can wait till after next release
<dneighbo> etc etc etc
<dneighbo> though thats misleading to a degree too as we have drivers as well
<dneighbo> currently we do that via UIwhatever
<dneighbo> it hink
<dneighbo> what are your thoughts jamest?
<dneighbo> gnue/forms/php/
<dneighbo> ?
<jamest> <jamest> I'm ok with that
<jamest> <jamest> but it can wait till after next release
<jamest> btw - any bugs in designer/forms?
<dneighbo> check dcl
<dneighbo> if they are not in dcl consider them not known
<dneighbo> i.e. if they are known they need to be in dcl :)
<dneighbo> soon we will have our BUGS and TODO will be obsolete and we can determine to either
<dneighbo> a. ditch them
<dneighbo> b. have them be self updating via dcl
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<derek> jamest: you around?
<jamest> yes
<derek> is debug working in designer?
<jamest> i dunno
<jamest> lemme look
<derek> and can you 'repaste' that primary key code for me
<jamest> you recall the  problems with setting up ssh on savannah people have had?
<derek> i need to replace this code
<derek> #for i in blckPerson:
<derek> #  if blckPerson.fields.ntryPK == "":
<derek> #    blckPerson.fields.ntryPK = "%s"%dtsrcPerson.extensions.getSequence('seq_person_id')
<derek> not aware of any problems other than it taking 10 years
<derek> why?
<jamest> ah
<jamest> jan is having ssh issues with his account on savannah
<derek> btw: this code is in a pre-commit trigger
<derek> hmmm is ssh down
<derek> the problems used to have with ssh was that they used some off ssh variation
<derek> and it crashed ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME
<jamest>     <block name="blckpo" datasource="dtsrcpo" transparentBlock="">
<jamest>       <trigger type="PRE-COMMIT">
<jamest>         blckpo.autofillBySequence('ntryuid','seq_po_uid')
<jamest>       </trigger>
<derek> hmmm
<derek> the pre-commit trigger is on the <form>
<jamest> um, shouldn't matter
<derek> so pre-commit is now at block level
<derek> my bad i had at block level
<derek> so i dont need the for loop anymore?
<jamest> nope
<derek> it would just be
<derek> blckPerson.autofillBySequence('ntryPK', 'seq_person_id')
<jamest> yip
<jamest> in the master block
Action: derek hugs jamest
<derek> well firm handshake
<derek> um is this postgres only feature?
<jamest> um
<derek> you still here
<jamest> yes and no
<derek> another big question
<derek> yes portable no unless you make the driver use it?
<jamest> yes it's a postgresql feature in that it relies on the driver to return valid sequence numbers
<jamest> not all the drivers do it 
Action: derek feels like he is gonna be a SAP dbdriver bitch soon
<jamest> btw - i'm recalling this from memory
<jamest> i have d/l'd sapdb to bring driver up to speed
<jamest> just haven't had time to do it
<jamest> debugger is broken
<derek> ok
<derek> i have following
<derek> created_on  timestamp    <http://goats.gnue.org/%7Edneighbo/fsf/no.png>  getdate()    created_by  int  4   <http://goats.gnue.org/%7Edneighbo/fsf/no.png>     modified_on  timestamp    <http://goats.gnue.org/%7Edneighbo/fsf/no.png>  getdate()    modified_by  int  4   <http://goats.gnue.org/%7Edneighbo/fsf/no.png>  
<derek> grrrr
<derek> created_on timestamp (getdate())
<derek> created_by int4
<derek> modified_on timestame (getdate())
<derek> modified_by int4
<derek> how can i do this on a pre-commit?
<derek> as these are mandatory fields
<derek> the on's i can leave blank and postgres will handle for me because of the funciton
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 01:33:03)
<derek> er function
<derek> im assuming i can use invisible fields
<derek> but i dont know enough about pre-commit
<derek> can i just do a 
<derek> blckPerson.ntryCreatedBy = 4
<jamest> only hits the current record
<derek> sigh thats what i thought
<derek> what if i loop it?
<jamest> loop will not work properly
<jamest> just a sec
<derek> for i in blckPerson:
<jamest> nope
<derek> hmmm
<jamest> i don't think that will work now
<jamest> it's been a long time since I looked 
<jamest> just a sec
Action: derek needs to hit jason up for his login tool like ASAP
<derek> as under this model i need to use a table other than postgres for authentication
<derek> i might have to take a day off work to get this done :(
<jan> derek, sorry for interrupting, but do you have a clue, whats wrong with my or with savannahs setup? I just can't log into cvs with ssh. Some people had this problem too. (-> mailing lists) but there is no written response to their mails.
<derek> um savannah is flaky
<chillywilly> howdy folks
<chillywilly> I have only has a problem with savannah onc
<derek> i would call there for you but likelihood of anyone being in right now is next to none
<chillywilly> er, once
<jamest> you are lucky
<chillywilly> it works fine now asnd has for a while
<derek> i think there is an email list savannah-hackers@gnu.org or something
<jamest> savannah is working right now
<chillywilly> well maybe ti was more than once
<chillywilly> but not lately
<chillywilly> s/ti/it
<derek> jan: did you put you keys on savannah?
<jamest> debugger in cvs is running again I believe
<derek> you fix it?
<jamest> yip
<jan> derek: yep. there is this mailling list. and they describe the same problem as i have.
<jamest> that why I was "just a sec"ing you
<jan> keys uploaded, SHH Protokoll 1 enabled. ...
<chillywilly> me notes it is taking ntp FOREVER to sync to the correct time
<derek> jan: which mailng list
<chillywilly> this blows
<jan> savannah-hackers
<derek> ah
<derek> i would send an email to them
<derek> i still use pserver for gnu :)
<chillywilly> bad derek
<derek> chillywilly: it took me 8 months to get that
<derek> and another 5 to get ssh and it took 5 after getting ssh just to be able to login
<derek> so i really wasnt 'anxious' to test my luck
<chillywilly> well you didn't factor in the 'masta' effect
<derek> i woudl say its the dumb derek curse
<chillywilly> lol
<derek> but i think EVERY person we have gotten setup has had some issue
<chillywilly> yes
<chillywilly> I have had issues before
<jan> ok, i try it again tomorow.
<chillywilly> the DDD eh?
<chillywilly> er, DDC
<derek> i would DEFINITELY send the mail
<derek> and i can followup on phone tomorrow
<derek> jamest: so you have any ideas how to do what im looking for?
<derek> o god of the triggers
<jamest> yeah
<jamest> i think you'll have to bug the dude that redid the trigger namespace to add somthing to do what you require
<derek> hey jamest......
<jamest> yes?
<derek> ;)
<chillywilly> why do triggers look so form-like?
<derek> think ou could add something to triggers to do......
<derek> ;)
<chillywilly> wouldn't it be nice to have a common object model that was ui independent
<jamest> custom namespace inside the trigger environment
<jamest> it's not ui dependent
<chillywilly> then derive formt hat and add triggers for the base widget
<jamest> any object in a gfobj tree can expose itself to triggernamespace
<chillywilly> well it uses the 'events' that the forms like
<chillywilly> it is tied into gobj
<jamest> and be referenced by it's name
<chillywilly>  what's with pre-focus....blah
<chillywilly> etc.
<chillywilly> that's a ui widget thing is it not?
<derek> yeah
<derek> and your point
<chillywilly> or am I insane?
<derek> because you can specify something that uses ui doesnt mean its ui dependent
<jamest> um
<jamest> those are forms triggers
<jamest> that fire 
<chillywilly> like the GObject/GTKObject  thing in the Gnome arch
<jamest> triggers don't have to be tied to forms
<chillywilly> do you dig what I mean?
<chillywilly> a common object model
<jamest> in fact the entire system should be easily adjusted to allow methods exposure in geas 2
<chillywilly> but you do agree there can be some refactoring?
<derek> um your updated busted designer on my form :)
<derek> DB000:   File "/home/dneighbo/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/GParser.py", line 225, in startElementNS
<derek> DB000:     raise MarkupError, 'Error processing <%s> tag [invalid type for "%s" attribute; value is "%s"]' % (name, attr, saxattrs[qattr])
<derek> DB000: gnue.common.GParser.MarkupError: Error processing <entry> tag [invalid type for "width" attribute; value is "10.0"]
<jamest> um
<chillywilly> I'd like to add this interface toe GObject to support persistence
<chillywilly> lemme upload it once
<jamest> i only fixed some imports
<derek> i would say its my form but i just saved it with designer before updating cvs :)
<jamest> i don't think we'll need refactoring so I guess I can agree to it
<jamest> as i think we're flexible now
<jamest> triggers are implemented in common and are applicatoin independent
<jamest> so they'll work in reports with NO UI :)
<derek> hmm maybe i did it on accident all is well now
<chillywilly> concurrency control too
<derek> chillywilly: i hate to say this
<derek> but until common is either fully documented
<derek> or until you download and use forms some
<derek> its probably best to look at the code :)
<jan> oh, i found the solution of the problem ;)   3 days after sending an support request for the same problem as mine, the writer of the request closed it with the following words: " For some unknown unreason, it works now - ..."
<jamest> documented?
<derek> i think you have some darned good ideas
<chillywilly> derek: uh?
<jan> -> i wait 3 days... :)
<derek> but talking in abstract is not very fruitful right now :)
<chillywilly> derek: I have loked at code
<jan> CU l8r
<chillywilly> derek: I have some methods I'd like to add to the 'object' model....they are fully documented
<derek> what would really really really really help
<derek> is if you could take the code
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<chillywilly> I would write the code dag nabit
<derek> and walk through it doing some sort of doc based on it
<jamest> derek: I'm starting that this week
<chillywilly> btu I don't go mucking about without talking to people
<derek> i think it would get you to point where your common questions are answered and we have a common ground to discuss geas on
<jamest> as reinhard requested it but this is first time I've had the chance
<derek> must make jamest and jcater work on other needs :)
<chillywilly> damn I keep typing the wrong password to scp this file
<chillywilly> doh!
<derek> cant spare for documenting and such, need clones
<chillywilly> doh!
[20:00] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<derek> if you would just paste your password here we could help ;()
<derek> bbl
Nick change: derek -> dnDinner
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> you are too funny
<chillywilly> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~baumannd/object.txt
<chillywilly> documenting is too crucial at this stage especially if we are to intergrate things, however I would settle for more jcater and jamest channel occupancy to answer questions ;)
<chillywilly> even a 'meeting' or two
<chillywilly> jamest: you see my url?
<jamest> IIRC all but the lock are built into python
<chillywilly> serves to help in object identity (as every object would get an id in geas) and for concurrency control (multiple people access business objects)
<chillywilly> how so?
<chillywilly> the interpreter locks?
<chillywilly> we still need a locking mechanism of our own
<jamest> the copy, comparison, etc are in python
<chillywilly> as you have to support SCID properties with transactions and such
<chillywilly> er, ACID
<chillywilly> so you have  on phantom reads, etc.
<chillywilly> s/on/no
<chillywilly> jamest: which may or may not be usable depending on how things go...as the comparison looks at the Object ids that the sustem assigns
<chillywilly> er, system
<chillywilly> unless python is cool ebnough to give all objects a unique d
<chillywilly> s/d/id
<jamest> dunno about that
<chillywilly> probably not
<chillywilly> I don't think it does
<chillywilly> the locking model is consistent with OMG's concurrency service model althought we can do more sophisticated locking than their 'pessmistic' locking model
<chillywilly> basicaly we want the system to remain consistent and users to have isolation until someone commits the transaction
<jamest> I'd have to think about this some 
<jamest> as it may graft in ok to our datasource model
<jamest> honestly I don't know w/o giving it some though
<jamest> t
<chillywilly> wel I am composing a document as we speak
<chillywilly> so as to communicate some ideas and flesh things out
<jamest> ok
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Action: chillywilly troutslaps crazymike
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<jcater> wassup, my peeps?
<chillywilly> the ceiling
<chillywilly> foo
Action: jcater looks up
<jcater> what's a ceiling?
<chillywilly> one word: 'dict' ;)
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Action: chillywilly troutslaps jcater
<crazymike> chillywilly: you there???
<crazymike> chillywilly: you gonna be here for a while yet???
<jcater> crazymike: just look for the flailing trout
<jcater> and you'll find chillywilly
<crazymike> lol
<chillywilly> yea
<crazymike> chillywilly: I have to leave for a few minutes but I'll be back in a bit
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<chillywilly> crazymike: ok
<klog-> hi!
<dnDinner> jcater's trailer doesnt have a ceiling
Nick change: crazymike -> crazymike_away
<chillywilly> dnDinner: lol
<dnDinner> one of dem twisters done tore er off
Nick change: dnDinner -> derek
<chillywilly> rofl
<jcater> yip
<jcater> that's what I was thinking
<jcater> so the ceiling's da stuff under the tires, right?
<derek> rofl
<derek> jcater: what is status of your old login model?
<derek> i.e. the one that lets you use tables other than the database auth?
<derek> and is there anyway you can get that in cvs tonight?
<derek> also jamest was going to look at a 'trigger' issue maybe you have ideas on it as well?
<derek> re: created on, created by problems
<derek> as you know im on a hard push deadline for some picky folks ;)
<chillywilly> you can beg better than that derek
<derek> im willing to help, but i dont want to tear forms up too bad ;)
<derek> also remind me to create a ticket about designer 'preferences'
<derek> so you can set debug runlevels and such
<derek> will be back in a bit
Action: jcater flips a certain finger derek's way
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> jcater: you are just one of the nicest people I have ever met
<derek> jcater: you are absolutely correct i do think you are a number 1
<derek> go get em champ ;)
Action: derek has flash backs of 'escape from new york'
<derek> cabbie: 'ah snake, thats the duke, he's A number one'
<jcater> bbi20min
<chillywilly> anyone know where a working ntp server is?
<dsmith> chillywilly: How about otc1.psu.edu
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> no dice
<chillywilly> do I need any ports open for ntp to work correctly?
<dsmith> yes
<chillywilly> which ones?
<chillywilly> 123?
Action: dsmith looks
<dsmith> chillywilly: yes 123 both tcp and udp
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> this is to server ntp though right?
<chillywilly> er, serve
<chillywilly> I just want to sync with some server
<dsmith> Yes
<dsmith> I have a script in /usr/local/bin/settime
<chillywilly> so do I need anything open n order to sync?
<dsmith> #!/bin/sh
<dsmith> sudo /usr/sbin/ntpdate -b -s otc1.psu.edu
<chillywilly> you run that from cron?
<dsmith> Just onece in a while
<Isomer> Happy Happy Happy!
<chillywilly> hey Isomer
<chillywilly> that shit didn't work
<dsmith> If you want to stay in sync, you need ntpd I think.
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: Isomer is happy happy happy
<chillywilly> I got that
<Isomer> we just found a core in ircu thats been bothering us for 3 months now
<chillywilly>  but you could also run your script from cron
Action: Isomer is Happy Happy Happy Happy
<dsmith> Yeah, sure
<chillywilly> ircu?
<Isomer> chillywilly: what most (sane?) people do is run ntpdate on boot
<Isomer> then ntp from then on to keep it correct
<Isomer> (hint: after running ntpdate /sbin/hwclock --systohc)
<chillywilly> ntp or ntpd?
<Isomer> chillywilly: undernets IRC daemon
<Isomer> er
<Isomer> ntpd
<dsmith> But you need to do more with config files if you are syncing (not just setting the date)
<chillywilly> well my time never synced
<dsmith> You have to force it sometimes.  Wont move the clock very far in one jump.
<chillywilly> well I even try that
<chillywilly> ntpdate -b server.whatever
<chillywilly> seems I can't find a decent server
<chillywilly> or I am blocking something
<Isomer> use ntpdate -ub server.whatever
<chillywilly> hrrrm
<chillywilly> what's thte -u fer?
<chillywilly> nevermind
<chillywilly> ok, so that makes it work passively then?
<Isomer> u from memory makes it use unpriviledged ports
<Isomer> which works much better
<dsmith> Isomer: WHy are you happy?
<chillywilly> they found a bug in their IRC daemon
<dsmith> ok
<Isomer> been bugging us for 3 months
<chillywilly> one that was plaguing them appranetly ;)
<chillywilly> er, apparently
<chillywilly> Isomer: ok, ntpdate synced me up now, but what's the deal on getting the daemon to work
<chillywilly> what can I open
<dsmith> chillywilly: There is a faq I read about it.  Found using google.
<chillywilly> on how to run it from behind a firewall?
<chillywilly> I found the ntp web site
<dsmith> I'll be setting up some ntp servers at comerica bank soon.  It was/is very helpful.
<chillywilly> in fact that's where I was getting servers from
<dsmith> udp is probably the culprit
<chillywilly> http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntpfaq/NTP-a-faq.htm
<chillywilly> that one?
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<chillywilly> ah yea
<chillywilly> it wants to make a data connection back to you right ;)
<chillywilly> like ftp does
<dsmith> i think so.
<chillywilly> unless you specify some sort of passive mode
<chillywilly> where you pull from the server
<chillywilly> make the data connection to them
<chillywilly> is that the ticket?
<dsmith> Something like that.
<dsmith> That's not what I was looking at before.
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> well do you have the url?
Action: dsmith looks
<chillywilly> is it a known data port or some shit?
<chillywilly> must be some way to run it in passive mode\
<dsmith> Read the config file
<Isomer> you can't run udp services in "passive" mode
<Isomer> kinda
<chillywilly> but you can amke a connection to them and pull the data
<dsmith> http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/index.htm
Nick change: crazymike_away -> crazymike
<dsmith> http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/quick.htm
<dsmith> chillywilly: You need to set what tier you are on I think.
<Isomer> er
<Isomer> dsmith: you should be able to just say "these are my upstream servers" and make sure port 123 is open
<Isomer> and it just "works"
<dsmith> Isomer: I agree.
<chillywilly> it makes a connection back to you on that port then?
<chillywilly> lemme just friggin open the port then
<dsmith> Isomer: I had to fiddle wiht some things to get it to work right.
<dsmith> Isomer: I'm almost certain that by telling them you are a lower tier (ie not very acurate) they will not contact you.
Action: dsmith tries to remember
<Isomer> hrm, shrug.
<dsmith> chillywilly: Better unblock upd 123
<chillywilly> udp you mean
<dsmith> yeah.
<dsmith> I can;t tyoe
<dsmith> type
<chillywilly> ## Log and allow NTP
<chillywilly> iptables -A INPUT -i $PPP_IFACE -p tcp --dport 123 -m state --state NEW -j LOG --log-level 5 -m limit --limit 20/minute
<chillywilly> iptables -A INPUT -i $PPP_IFACE -p tcp --dport 123 -j ACCEPT
<chillywilly> iptables -A INPUT -i $PPP_IFACE -p udp --dport 123 -m state --state NEW -j LOG --log-level 5 -m limit --limit 20/minute
<chillywilly> iptables -A INPUT -i $PPP_IFACE -p udp --dport 123 -j ACCEPT
<chillywilly> join the club
<dsmith> Gaaa!  iptables
Action: dsmith runs and hides
<chillywilly> iptables is cool
<chillywilly> what's a matta with you?
<chillywilly> are you some sorta bsd freak?
<dsmith> chillywilly: You betcha
<chillywilly> sick
<chillywilly> so you force all your clients to use bsd?
<dsmith> Haven't messed with Linux and packet filtering since around 2.0.27 or so.
<dsmith> Actually, they are using Solaris.  Gauntlet and FireWall-1
<chillywilly> GNU/Linux you mean
<chillywilly> ;)
<dsmith> ;^)
<chillywilly> hey I actually got a log file now
<chillywilly> frell:/var/log/ntpstats# ls -l
<chillywilly> total 8
<chillywilly> -rw-r--r--    2 root     root          420 Apr  1 21:57 peerstats
<chillywilly> -rw-r--r--    2 root     root          420 Apr  1 21:57 peerstats.20020402
Action: dsmith is actually a deb head
<chillywilly> I don't buy that you bsd nut
<chillywilly> ;P
<dsmith> Hah! Just check the CLUG mailing list archives for the flame wars I've started.
<chillywilly> this means it is working right ;)
<chillywilly> most of my LUG is Debian lovin'
<dsmith> Um.  Sure.  Yeah right. Sure.
<chillywilly> oh wand then we have the BSd curmudeon
<chillywilly> whose sole purpose is to talk shit abotu GNU/Linux and whine how BSD is superior
<dsmith> chillywilly: Do a tcpdump or use ethereal and watch that server
<chillywilly> he needs to go find a BSD user's group
<dsmith> I like Linux
<chillywilly> and stop harassing LUG people
<dsmith> I Like BSD.
<dsmith> I use both
<chillywilly> nothgint wrong with that
<chillywilly> it's not really much of a contest
<chillywilly> but this guy is something else
<dsmith> Right tool for the job.
<dsmith> Some people are idiots.
Action: crazymike is an idiot!!!
<chillywilly> I see lots of ssh packets
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> the ntp daemon forked initially
<chillywilly> now it is sleeping
<dsmith> chillywilly: Did you see those docs? http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/index.htm
<chillywilly> bah, I don't feel like reading all that crazy stuff
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> it seems to wotk
<chillywilly> I can test it on here now
<chillywilly> and sync to my own ntp server
<chillywilly> if it works then I'm not going to sweat it
Action: dsmith is happy for chillywilly
<dsmith> Well, time to boot back into Linux
<dsmith> Just got my Lucent Gold card working under OpenBSD
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<chillywilly> crazymike: what's wrong?
<chillywilly> hrrrm, well I can't connect to my own ntp server
<chillywilly> b;ah
<crazymike> chillywilly: what do you mean???
<chillywilly> [21:52:18] * crazymike is an idiot!!!
<chillywilly> nevermind
Action: crazymike is watching the NCAA Championship, thinking about how great going to bed sounds
<chillywilly> I didn't read close enogh
<crazymike> <dsmith> Some people are idiots.
<crazymike> * crazymike is an idiot!!!
<chillywilly> yea, it sounds real good
<chillywilly> dude, I exercised tonight
<crazymike> I think I am gonna go soon
<crazymike> did you???
<crazymike> cool
<chillywilly> you should be proud of me
<chillywilly> ;)
<crazymike> did it feel good???
<crazymike> what did you do???
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> it actually did
<chillywilly> some situps,pushups, walked on the treadmill
<crazymike> cool
<crazymike> good job
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<chillywilly> damn for some reason I cannot connect to port 123
<chillywilly> boohoo
<derek> jcater or jamest ever return?
<jcater> nope
<chillywilly> they're gone forveerj
<chillywilly> er, forever
<chillywilly> or as jid rock would say foeva
<crazymike> chillywilly: well, good night
<chillywilly> s/jid/kid
<crazymike> chillywilly: I'll meet you at 7 again
<chillywilly> crazymike: night
<chillywilly> yeop
<crazymike> chillywilly: same bat place, same bat time
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<chillywilly> hehe
<jamest> i'm here but going to bed soon
<jamest> i'll add some type of block record navigation into the trigger system tomorrow
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<derek> gack
<ajmitch> ello all
<derek> what happens when you make an error in .bashrc
<derek> and then your bash shell wont come up in a terminal?
<ajmitch> hehe
<jamest> you have to reformat your HD
<ajmitch> you login as root & change it
<jamest> yeah, that's it
<derek> never mind fixed it
<jamest> "Put in the restore CD that came with your windows machine"
<jamest> "Bend over"
<jamest> "Hit the reset switch"
<jamest> "Follow the prompts on the screen"
<jamest> "Enjoy a smoke afterwards"
<jamest> "You mean you wanted to keep your data?!?!?!?!?  How odd."
Action: ajmitch waits for new hard drive to arrive
<derek> how do you make ssh work with savannah cvs?
<ajmitch> umm, lemme recall...
<derek> i tried this
<derek> alias FSFCVS="export CVSROOT="-d dneighbors@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/contacts/"; export CVS_RSH=ssh"
<derek> then run FSFCVS
<derek> and do cvs co contacts
<derek> and get the following
<jamest> CVSROOT=":ext:jamest@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/gnue"
<derek> grrr
<derek> thats what i started to put
<derek> but thats not what their directions say
<ajmitch> yeah, that'd work
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<ajmitch> [ajmitch @ ajmitch projects] less dotgnu/CVS/Root 
<ajmitch> ajmitch@subversions.gnu.org:/webcvs/
<derek> ubstitute developername with the proper value. Your savannah password is useless for cvs. You have to register a CVS/SSH Shared key in the Account Maintenance page for the machine from which you run cvs.
<derek> Source tree: export CVS_RSH=ssh
<derek>  
<derek> cvs -z3 -ddevelopername@subversions.gnu.org:/cvsroot/contacts/ co contacts
<derek> is their directions
<ajmitch> hmm, it should default to ext method
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<jamest> derek: how far into dcl screens are you?
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<ajmitch> derek: drop the '-d ' from the start of the export CVSROOT statement
<derek> yeah that worked
<derek> um define dcl screens
<ajmitch> ok good
<derek> have most of contact_* tables in forms
<derek> i had a work_order form but needs clean up
<derek> most of the admin forms are done
<ajmitch> cool
<ajmitch> i haven't played with forms or designer for ages :)
<derek> i stopped working against stable though and started going against head instead
<derek> as head is where new contact stuff it
<derek> er is
<jamest> multipage support is in the big designer wizzard now
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<derek> jamest: you know how the hell www works for savannah?
<derek> i.e. if i just create a www dir under a savannah project
<jcater> http://savannah.gnu.org/
<ajmitch> someone slap chillywilly around, please
<jamest> derek: no idea
<derek> and check in some pages
<jcater> type that in the little line at the top of "Internet Explorer"
<derek> will it auto check them out or do i have to do something
<jamest> still no idea
<jamest> :)
<ajmitch> derek: in the webcvs repository? or is that just for the other stuff
<ajmitch> derek@subversions.gnu.org:/webcvs/gnue shoudl contain some gnue stuff :)
Action: derek heads for the admin docs (i need a good laugh)
<derek> ajmitch: this is brand new project
<ajmitch> ah right
<jamest> i really need sleep
<jcater> well, /me's had all the gnue and non-gnue fun he can stand for one day
<jamest> nite
<jcater> nite all
<ajmitch> night
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<jamest> derek: mail or dcl me needs by priority
<jamest> was planning on a bug stomp party one nite this week
<jamest> guess sooner is better than later :)
<jamest> nite
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<ajmitch> hmm, quiet now :)
<ajmitch> i should get to reading some of the stuff about geas
<derek> ajmitch: in your example
<derek> derek@subversions.gnu.org:/webcvs/gnue 
<derek> what would i check out?
<derek> or how can i browse this online
<derek> say for dotgnu
<derek> not gnue
<ajmitch> hmm, lemme try think
<ajmitch> CVSROOT="derek@subversions.gnu.org:/webcvs/"
<ajmitch> cvs co projects/gnue
<ajmitch> i think :)
<derek> nope :*(
<ajmitch> oh?
<ajmitch> what error?
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/fsfoffice$ cvs co projects/contacts
<derek> cvs server: cannot find module `projects/contacts' - ignored
<derek> cvs [checkout aborted]: cannot expand modules
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/fsfoffice$ cvs co software/contacts
<derek> cvs server: cannot find module `software/contacts' - ignored
<derek> cvs [checkout aborted]: cannot expand modules
<derek> dneighbo@latitude:~/cvs/fsfoffice$ 
<ajmitch> hmm
<derek> http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/
<derek> apparently there is no cvs there for contacts?
<derek> hmmm
<ajmitch> ah thanks, was just about to look for that :)
<derek> odd as i checked out successfully blankness
<derek> sigh this is way too much work
<derek> its under neither software or projects
<derek> i will have to email them
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<ajmitch> yeah
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<derek> hi mdean
Action: derek assumes you are not really here :)
<derek> splitting headache, must sleep
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Nick change: ajmitch_ -> ajmitch
<nickr> splitting headache is sometihng I can relate to this moment.
<ajmitch> hi nickr
--- Tue Apr  2 2002